NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I cleared Ragnarok and told everyone that I would recreate the region. One of the crashers, TIYF Ragnarok, came and recreated it 23 minutes before I tried. I'm not sure if he's breaking any rules, but I sure as hell hope so, otherwise I'm probably screwed, as I was the delegate. Please help me out.

Me and the other natives of Ragnarok can vouch for Kenshin. TIYF Ragnarok is guilty by association.

I know of no rules forbidding this. Hard cheese I'm afraid.

I know of no rules forbidding this. Hard cheese I'm afraid.

God smoteth me again. Damn the n00b!!!
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I know of no rules forbidding this. Hard cheese I'm afraid.

DAMN IT! Stupid n00b!
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I know of no rules forbidding this. Hard cheese I'm afraid.

I have filed a report of a delegate clearing out a complete region. This is griefing. The regional report has been filed in the getting help section.

<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
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LMAO, are you saying you filed a report against me?

I told everyone I was gonna clear it, and no one said they had a problem with it. Maybe you think that TIYF Ragnarok cleared it. He didn't. He crashed us and then recreated it. I'm hoping that's against some rule, but Sirocco has made this look like a slim chance.

LMAO, are you saying you filed a report against me?

Well, if it was you who cleared the place out, than the file was against you. You griefed the region in order to recreate it. You passsworded it, so natives could not return, and you ejected them all. Your warning to them was pointless, since not all people sit behind the computer to wait all day until you talk to them. Maybe they were working. Well, you just have to wait now.

<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
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I gave them over 24 hours. So unless they work 30 hour days (illegal, I might add), they had the opportunity to see and protest. I am a native myself, and I didn't grief, as I was the people's chosen delegate. So there.

Its debateable so you just have to wait and see what the mods who get that report have to say. (one of them might consider it griefing while a different one don't.)

Nonetheless, a delegate ejecting every nation from a region is griefing. Even had they agreed, they should have left themselves.

There was a thread a while back where Spoffin enquired on this very topic, and the ruling was clear. It's not allowed

I agree. I never thought I'd be the one in question on my own mod request post...

Actually, we've had people clear their regions before to refound them... usually this is done with the consent of the people in the region, thus making it not griefing.

I think Kenshin Himura is fine in this, but, as Sirocco said, hard cheese. My suggestion would be clearing the banlist and letting the people in the region back in.

--Scolo

Man, the laws of the United States don't apply online? TIYF Ragnarok is guilty by association. He was part of the griefing "force" that was banned from the UN and such.

Actually, we've had people clear their regions before to refound them... usually this is done with the consent of the people in the region, thus making it not griefing.--ScoloHang on, I had a thread up for a week and nobody told me this.

Man, the laws of the United States don't apply online? TIYF Ragnarok is guilty by association. He was part of the griefing "force" that was banned from the UN and such.
Actually, a lot of them don't. Try telling a Chinese website that they have to comply with US laws.

Hang on, I had a thread up for a week and nobody told me this.
Sorry... but if I were omniscient I'd be off running the universe or something. Now you know.

--Scolo

Surely you can't be serious that the charge of guilt by association has any place in a US court of law! In the US, a person is innocent until proven guilty and guilt by association falls into the same catagory as hearsay being entered as evidence. The fact of the matter is that the delegate, without the express consent of the inhabitants, ejected all present (including your's truely), passworded and left Ragnarok to die. As long as we're bringing case law into it, let's look at presidence. The delegate of Blue Moon, not too long ago, WITH the consent of the natives, ejected all, pw'ed and left with the intent of recreating the region. The said delegate was summarily deleted for rules violations.
What's more, the nations I associate with have had no recent UN ejections. If the mods keep records ot confer amongst themselves, cannot say otherwise. You layed down a charge, prove it!

Kenshin - I warned you by telegram (from my alter ego Free Radicals of Mu-Mu) ahead of time that your declared plan to clear the region was a violation of the rules, and yet you proceded with it. That another nation was quicker than you to recreate the region is not an issue for the mods at all, I would have thought, whereas your own actions are, as Corinthe and others point out above.

On the invasion earlier this week which preceded your decision to clear the region, it fell entirely within the accepted norms for invasions. Only two natives were ejected - the delegate and one of his endorsers. Both were thereafter cleared from the banlist. The regional password was sent by telegram to all in the region. None of those who took part lost UN status as a result, although a couple of them resigned once the region was taken, which may have confused you.

As to you being "the people's chosen delegate", you were only delegate thanks to the endorsement of one other state who moved to the region (after the invader delegate left the region) specifically to endorse you. You had no (zero - count 'em) native endorsements.

Thin ice, baby :wink:

I can't see you getting in any trouble for clearing the region. Though a technical violation, as above most moderators wouldn't punish you since you probably did it with the consent of the natives.

However refounding nations is a brutal race where hares should never take rests and no one tests turtles for steriods.

And just so I'm clear. My intent in posting here is to put to rest speculatiion about any rules violations by me. I have no desire to see Delegate (a post he has retaken following the refounding of Ragnarok) suffer any more than he has these past few hours. I personally filed NO mod report and would ask for leniency if the mods did find rules have been broken by the Del.

Hang on, I had a thread up for a week and nobody told me this.
Sorry... but if I were omniscient I'd be off running the universe or something. Now you know.

--Scolo
Sorry, I didn't mean to criticize you, it just surprised me that none of the mods that posted on my tread mentioned that. Maybe it didn't seem pertinent... oh, I dunno.

I am heavily confused now. Are you all saying now that it's okay for a delegate to eject everyone out, so he can join the race to refound it? Scolo wrote that clearing the banlist is required, but the banlist of a recreated region is always empty, so what was the purpose of this post? Either I have gone completely mad or you all are talking about a complete different situation, thus confusing every reader here that any ruling Delegate is allowed to clear his region. :? :? :?
Please don't tell me that I am talking about another situation. It was I who reported this griefing, and it was the delegate who ejected all the natives, so he could recreate the regio. Ofcourse he lost the race, but that's beside the point. I always thought that ejecting all natives was a "no no" for a delegate?!

<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
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It's permissible for this one situation, apparently. I've never heard anything against a delegate clearing a region to refound, just delegates randomly banning people. The rule against griefing exists to protect people from those who derive enjoyment from exacting suffering from others. This wasn't mean to inconvenience the natives in any way, just to regain control of the region, for the natives.

It's permissible for this one situation, apparently. I've never heard anything against a delegate clearing a region to refound, just delegates randomly banning people. Blue Moon is a famous example

I have seen so many regios suffer because the founder was gone, and why is The Pacific Army still busy moving out and why is Mercia (The region of one of the mods) still busy moving from one place to the other? They could just as easy have kicked everyone out, and recreate Mercia again, just like this delegate did!?

<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
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I have seen so many regios suffer because the founder was gone, and why is The Pacific Army still busy moving out and why is Mercia (The region of one of the mods) still busy moving from one place to the other? They could just as easy have kicked everyone out, and recreate Mercia again, just like this delegate did!?


Not to put too fine a point on this, but...

yes.

yes.

Sorry, but I rather have a mod word on this. I have seen to many delegates deated, for what you say is legal. I can't imagine that the rule has changed, and you are not a mod..........

<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
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Sorry, but I rather have a mod word on this. I have seen to many delegates deated, for what you say is legal. I can't imagine that the rule has changed, and you are not a mod..........



Fresh from IRC:

<Manmen> Need a quick modly answer. Is a delegate clearing out a region, with the consent of the natives, to refound it, illegal?
<Sirithil> Manmen: No

Sorry, but I rather have a mod word on this. I have seen to many delegates deated, for what you say is legal. I can't imagine that the rule has changed, and you are not a mod..........



Fresh from IRC:

<Manmen> Need a quick modly answer. Is a delegate clearing out a region, with the consent of the natives, to refound it, illegal?
<Sirithil> Manmen: No
At what point does it become illegal? Do you need literally unanimous consent?

At what point does it become illegal? Do you need literally unanimous consent?

That's a personal call, but something to be strived for, if possible. But, if the only people who don't consent are one day shy of going stale, I doubt the mods will raise much fuss.

At what point does it become illegal? Do you need literally unanimous consent?

That's a personal call, but something to be strived for, if possible. But, if the only people who don't consent are one day shy of going stale, I doubt the mods will raise much fuss.Well, if the person who doesn't agree is an invader, as they claim this TIYF Ragnarok to be, then that person doesn't have the right to object due to their invader status. Its not their region, so they get no say over what the original inhabitants do with it.

Manmen, you have an enormous gift for twisting facts, and force a mod ruling with it. I have the regional happenings of the passed days, and I see no unanimous consent here. I wonder what you have to gain with all this. The delegate acted on his own, and you managed to get an anonimous concent and a mod ruling about this event. Man, I beginning to get real sick of all the dealings in this game. Something is terribly wrong with the mods!

[code:1:bd8d26dd3b]
Ragnarok
World Factbook Entry: Ragnarok is being cleared; please come back tomorrow.

UN Delegate: None.

Founder: The pillager villagers

Ragnarok is an empty wasteland, devoid of nations. [List all nations]

Like what you see? Move Corinthe to Ragnarok today!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today's United Nations Report
The Most Comprehensive Public Healthcare in Ragnarok
The following nations have extremely good public healthcare facilities, given their population.

# Nation UN Category Motto
1. The Armed Republic of TIYF Ragnarok Liberal Democratic Socialists "Born to take Ragnarok"
2. The Holy Empire of Samurai X Democratic Socialists "Corruption causes justice to appear as insanity"
3. The Theocracy of Hiten Mitsurugi Liberal Democratic Socialists "A sword swung in my name is swung in the name of Japan"
4. The Armed Republic of Spartans II Father Knows Best State "If you die, we will eat you"
5. The Dominion of Gladheim Corporate Police State "Rape, pillage, kill."
6. The People's Republic of Nankin Moy Democratic Socialists "What a stupid place for a restaurant"
7. The Empire of El Mayo Compulsory Consumerist State "Nope, Taken"
8. The Empire of Drwgnerth Corporate Police State "We know nothing the leader knows all"
9. The Free Land of Volcanic Island Free-Market Paradise "Tap for 1 Blue or Red mana"
10. The Republic of LoK_Kaos Inoffensive Centrist Democracy "K405 0WN5"

Page: < 1 2 >

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Regional Happenings
69 minutes ago: The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura departed this region for The Rejected Realms
70 minutes ago: The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura changed the regional password.
70 minutes ago: The Holy Empire of Hybrid Inu-Yasha departed this region for The Rejected Realms
70 minutes ago: The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura ejected The Holy Empire of Hybrid Inu-Yasha from the region.
70 minutes ago: The Republic of LoK_Kaos departed this region for The Rejected Realms
70 minutes ago: The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura ejected The Republic of LoK_Kaos from the region.
71 minutes ago: The People's Republic of Nankin Moy departed this region for The Rejected Realms
71 minutes ago: The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura ejected The People's Republic of Nankin Moy from the region.
71 minutes ago: The Empire of Reederia departed this region for The Rejected Realms
71 minutes ago: The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura ejected The Empire of Reederia from the region.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ragnarok Civil Headquarters
Messages from regional members are co-ordinated here.

Lodged From Message
2 days ago The Republic of Enigma1 I would like to offer you a chance to visit The Island Nations of Aramir. If you enjoy your visit you are more than welcome to stay.
Hops

2 days ago The Holy Empire of Sinister Minister Traveling salesmen here in Ragnarok... It does my heart good knowing that I helped bring free enterprise to Ragnarok. Well sleepy nations of Ragnarok, I'll be at the party if you would like to join us and thank and praise us for liberating you from the clutches of tyrants.
I know, you're very tired. You're welcome anyway.
S+M
2 days ago The Vengeance of Nargs Well - it's been real, people, but you know how it is - things to see, people to do. I have telegrammed the password to all natives, so one of you can pass it on to Jake and Neo-Vik if they wish to return, and you wish them to (of course). Thank you for flying AirNargs - we hope you choose us again for your future delousing needs.
2 days ago The Armed Republic of TIYF Ragnarok I guess the end will have to wait. and so will I.
2 days ago The Dominion of Valkyri I think I just met the warrior of my dreams! Hey Nargs, wait up!...
2 days ago The Proud to be GLA Peoples of Thorn in your Flesh Oh, Gonzo, I forgot to mention: Time to bug out. There's soon to be no protection in this place at all and I'd hate to see a member-of-the-free-press' head on a stake. Beside's we've got a party to attend - Open bar!
1 day ago The Holy Empire of Hybrid Inu-Yasha WIKAAA WIKKAA BOOOO!!!!!!111
1 day ago The Welcome Presence of Free Radicals of Mu-Mu I noticed you seemed to be under attack, chaps. Thought I'd drop in and support your delegate.
22 hours ago The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura Support me, he's not been on for almost two weeks. I have one endorsement, and since you just did that, we have a delegate that can't do anything. Endorse me, and all will be well. I'm gonna clear the region and recreate it.
14 hours ago The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura If anyone has a problem with me clearing the region, say so or forever hold your peace. At 5:00PM EST, I'm clearing it.

[/code:1:bd8d26dd3b]

<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://69.57.141.218/333/102/emo/xmastongue.gif
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Ok, I cleared Ragnarok and told everyone that I would recreate the region. One of the crashers, TIYF Ragnarok, came and recreated it 23 minutes before I tried. I'm not sure if he's breaking any rules, but I sure as hell hope so, otherwise I'm probably screwed, as I was the delegate. Please help me out.

Yep, you're screwed it isn't illegal i've done it myself with the region ___ and sadly it isn't illegal you just have to been online at the right time bit like an auction apart from the fact you don't when it starts

Emperor Matthuis

Clearing a few, lonely, nearly dead, nations from a region to refound it is one thing.


Here's our viewpoint:

If all the active players consent to the refounding of the region, they will all move of their own accord to a temporary holding region, correct? Thus, the only ejections necessary would be of those dissenting, players attempting to create a problem, and neglected nations. Depending on the number of nations left, the Delegate can kick those nations from the region (only a small percentage of the usual inhabitants, mind you). There are, of course, many exceptions:

Say, there are 100 nations. 20 of whom dont move, that's a large percentage, 1/5 of the population. However, if, say, 15 of those nations all belong to the same person and all have been neglected by that player, ejecting all 15 isnt really quite the same as ejecting 15 different players' nations. Make sense?

This is one example, and the reason the Mod rulings are generally hazy is because it becomes difficult to make a rule, and then account for every single exception that comes along.

The regional happenings show that he ejected all nations that were in the region the last two days. That was more than the nations that have returned. I don't know it anymore :cry:

corinthe, i guess that's just tough luck my friend :(

corinthe, i guess that's just tough luck my friend :(

Lol, you were never on my side, so don't act so hypocritical :evil:

hmmm, how rude!

Perhaps it also matters that the outcome wasn't in favor of the nation doing the clearing (someone else took the Foundership) ?

Ballotonia

No, actually, it doesnt.

I havent looked at this particular situation, merely posted the general rule concerning such issues.

Clearing a few, lonely, nearly dead, nations from a region to refound it is one thing.


Here's our viewpoint:

If all the active players consent to the refounding of the region, they will all move of their own accord to a temporary holding region, correct? Thus, the only ejections necessary would be of those dissenting, players attempting to create a problem, and neglected nations. Depending on the number of nations left, the Delegate can kick those nations from the region (only a small percentage of the usual inhabitants, mind you). There are, of course, many exceptions:

Say, there are 100 nations. 20 of whom dont move, that's a large percentage, 1/5 of the population. However, if, say, 15 of those nations all belong to the same person and all have been neglected by that player, ejecting all 15 isnt really quite the same as ejecting 15 different players' nations. Make sense?

This is one example, and the reason the Mod rulings are generally hazy is because it becomes difficult to make a rule, and then account for every single exception that comes along.But, with no real way to tell for certain who the nations belong to, what does the delegate do?

No, actually, it doesnt.

I havent looked at this particular situation, merely posted the general rule concerning such issues.

I meant: that the outcome made a difference in the Mod's choice of not acting, not in whether it makes a difference in the rules.

Now, because of your responce above, I know that there might not have been any mod action because maybe no mod has looked at it yet. My assumption that you had (since you posted) was wrong. Pardon me.

Ballotonia

Perhaps it also matters that the outcome wasn't in favor of the nation doing the clearing (someone else took the Foundership) ?

Ballotonia

And he'd beat me to it by 1 or 2 secs :P

What if it was griefing? I think, especially since I've had multiple nations telegram me calling me a f*ckin prick, b@st@rd, what have you... so I think it was.

Manmen, you have an enormous gift for twisting facts, and force a mod ruling with it. I have the regional happenings of the passed days, and I see no unanimous consent here. I wonder what you have to gain with all this. The delegate acted on his own, and you managed to get an anonimous concent and a mod ruling about this event. Man, I beginning to get real sick of all the dealings in this game. Something is terribly wrong with the mods!


:shock: What? What?

Did you just accuse me of conspiring with the mods to get people mass-ejected from regions?

I took what I saw on this thread, coupled with what I know of the past, mix in a little Mod response from Siri, and boom, instant conspiracy? I'm baffled at the logic that lead you to accuse me of this. Furthermore, I have seen no evidence of any kind of inconsistency from the Mods. Each case is unique, and must be handled that way. Rules exist only as the framework within one operates, they're not the whole and entirity of dealing with situations.

The Delegate Kenshin Mimura thinks he has a way out. His post on Ragnarok..

7 minutes ago
The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura
Well guys, I've got some bad news for you... you see... I griefed, according to you and me, and when a region is griefed, well, it has to be set back to the way it WAS. That means, well, you're not gonna be the founder anymore. Sorry.

The del is trying to play the mods like idiots. Mods are a bit smarter than that my friend.

7 minutes ago
The Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu of Kenshin Himura
Well guys, I've got some bad news for you... you see... I griefed, according to you and me, and when a region is griefed, well, it has to be set back to the way it WAS. That means, well, you're not gonna be the founder anymore. Sorry.

The del is trying to play the mods like idiots. Mods are a bit smarter than that my friend.

Well, you did accuse me of griefing, did you not? I'm not trying to "play the mods for fools," as it were, but find a way where the rules prohibit you from what you've done. Techinically, you've done nothing illegal. But what you did was enabled through illegal means. If I assassinate Bush, and you get the Republican nomination, even though you previously had no chance in hell of doing so, is it right? Here's the answer:

"Is Shaniqua there?"

"HELL NO! SHANIQUA DON'T LIVE HERE NO MORE!"

EDIT: Don't call me "the del" or any other terms. Should I call you "the grief?" Don't call me your "friend" either, seeing as how a friend would not make my NS experience a temporal hell.

Kenshin, I have recreated some regios that were griefed by others, also. In about 50% of the cases there was a role-back in the region. So it is possible that the region will be restored like it was before. It will do none of you any good, but there is a chance.

Thanks, guys. I'm pretty sure you aren't "on my side," as it were, but I appreciate the support and assisstance from you guys.

Mr. Kenshin Himura, I do hope this is preferable to calling you *horrors!* "friend" or acknowledging your highly respected post of elected Delegate. I will try never again to pay you these honors.
I do wish you would enlighten me as to how I acted illegally. Ragnarok was abandoned. Anyone can recreate a region. That is precisly the reason why no one tried recreating foundership before you tried. It is well known to be a risky venture. Did you think Jake and others were lazy? Have you no respect for those who came before you Mr. Kenshin Himura?

Mr. Kenshin Himura, I do hope this is preferable to calling you *horrors!* "friend" or acknowledging your highly respected post of elected Delegate. I will try never again to pay you these honors.
I do wish you would enlighten me as to how I acted illegally. Ragnarok was abandoned. Anyone can recreate a region. That is precisly the reason why no one tried recreating foundership before you tried. It is well known to be a risky venture. Did you think Jake and others were lazy? Have you no respect for those who came before you Mr. Kenshin Himura?

Here's an idea: Don't flamebait. It's against the rules, you know. You and your pals came and grieved us earlier. That's why some were ejected from the UN. After you guys did that, I by no easy means became delegate. I announced that I was gonna recreate it, and unintentionally griefed. Now, you recreated the region that was not "abandoned": I ejected 10 hours earlier. Not all of us have all day to be on the computer, waiting for something to happen. And anyway, I said you did what you did through illegal means. I committed the illegality, you took advantage. I didn't say you did. Maybe you should read thoroughly. And I didn't say Jake and the others were lazy. They were cool people. You, on the other hand, are not so cool in my book. And, unless you ARE Jake, which I doubt, I think he'd rather have me recreate, since I didn't come in and ban him and change the password to "jakesux." So don't condescend to me as to who does not have respect for who. Hypocrite.

Kenshin, you are a sore loser and have a flexible approach to the facts that is most unbecoming.

You say "You and your pals came and grieved us earlier. That's why some were ejected from the UN. After you guys did that, I by no easy means became delegate. I announced that I was gonna recreate it, and unintentionally griefed."

As is clear from my earlier post in this thread: 1) Ragnarok was not griefed (or grieved) before your mass ejections - an invasion took place on Monday night/Tuesday morning that followed existing game norms/rules (only 2 ejections, subsequent unbanning of said ejectees, password sent to all natives); 2) None of the invaders were ejected from the UN - in fact the only ejectee from the UN in this whole mess has been your endorser Ragnarok 12 a short while ago :roll: ; 3) You did not "unintentionally grief" - you ejected all members of the region after I had warned you in a telegram that your proposed action was against game rules - in fact you even replied, thanking me for the warning, before proceding regardless.

You tried to refound the region. Someone else got there before you. That someone has not so far ejected you from the region despite your provocative posts in the region and here. Try to live gracefully with the consequences of your actions, even though they are other than you intended.