NationStates Jolt Archive

I haven't been playing NS for very long, but I do have a region which I have been elected delegate of.

To celebrate, I spent a VERY long time posting a UN resolution entitled "The Retail based Crimes Act", under the "Human Rights" category (A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.)

The edited highlights are that the act would make it a crime for customers to annoy staff in retail outlets (and if you've worked in retail outlets then you will understand why such an act would be good for the world). In fact, I even received a Telegram from another Nation in a different region thanking me for making the Proposal! :D

Earlier today I got a VERY curt telegram from "NationStates Moderators" saying "Make your UN proposals in the right category". No explanation, nothing. I found my proposal had been deleted, which I'm not very happy about, as I spent over an hour typing it, and as far as I can tell it was in the right category, not offensive, and certainly not worthy of deletion- especially when you look at some of the junk that does get left in the Proposal Queue. :?: :?: :evil: :evil:

I don't know which Mod was responsible for the Proposal's Deletion, but I would like an explanation, and an apology would be nice- certainly, a bit more than a curt telegram basically saying "Get it right, idiot!" :x :x

After this sort of treatment there is no way in hell I will be signing up for any Pay version of NationStates...

This post has been CCd to the United Nations Forum as well, to make sure a wide audience sees it.

The edited highlights are that the act would make it a crime for customers to annoy staff in retail outlets (and if you've worked in retail outlets then you will understand why such an act would be good for the world).

Oh Gods, yes. Do I ever.

Well, when the mod in question tends to delete in the neighborhood of 500 proposals a month, a long detailed telegram would take far too much time.

As for it being wrong category... how would restricting the actions of customers improve civil rights?

To celebrate, I spent a VERY long time... I spent over an hour typing it...

Suggestion for future - if you spend such a long time creating such a document, it's a good idea to do it in a word.doc, save it, and paste it into the game. It saves a lot of frustration...

One other point, if you go to the UN Forum you can read the sticky on posting a proposal.
I do wonder what happened to the old (the customer is always right) saying :roll:

If the Mod who deleted it had read the proposal, then they would see why the proposal would have increased Human Rights.

Basically, at the moment, most businesses run on the adage "The Customer Is Always Right". Anyone who has spent more than 20 minutes working in retail knows that "The Customer Is Always A Complete %&*#! Idiot!!!".

I myself have lost two jobs due to trivial customer complaints (one regarding an issue totally outside my control- the pricing of goods, and the other where a customer went out of his way to annoy, harrass, and abuse me until I finally told him to %&*#! Off and stop bothering me. I had three staff and two customers tell the manager that they totally supported me and probably would have decked the guy, but that still didn't stop me being told a week later than there were no hours for me).

In short, the Proposal would have re-adjusted things to make it fairer for everyone and allow people to keep their jobs instead of facing the sack just because some idiot was having a bad day and felt like taking it out on a Retail Employee.

As you can see from an earlier post, the proposal would have had quite a bit of support- How hard would it have been to change the category to a more appropriate one? Especially when it was obvious that a lot of work had gone into the proposal from a relatively new nation.

Sending curt (dare I say rude?) telegrams and randomly deleting proposals is not going to encourage people to play the game at all...

If the Mod who deleted it had read the proposal, then they would see why the proposal would have increased Human Rights.

Basically, at the moment, most businesses run on the adage "The Customer Is Always Right". Anyone who has spent more than 20 minutes working in retail knows that "The Customer Is Always A Complete %&*#! Idiot!!!".

I myself have lost two jobs due to trivial customer complaints (one regarding an issue totally outside my control- the pricing of goods, and the other where a customer went out of his way to annoy, harrass, and abuse me until I finally told him to %&*#! Off and stop bothering me. I had three staff and two customers tell the manager that they totally supported me and probably would have decked the guy, but that still didn't stop me being told a week later than there were no hours for me).

In short, the Proposal would have re-adjusted things to make it fairer for everyone and allow people to keep their jobs instead of facing the sack just because some idiot was having a bad day and felt like taking it out on a Retail Employee.

As you can see from an earlier post, the proposal would have had quite a bit of support- How hard would it have been to change the category to a more appropriate one? Especially when it was obvious that a lot of work had gone into the proposal from a relatively new nation.

Sending curt (dare I say rude?) telegrams and randomly deleting proposals is not going to encourage people to play the game at all...

Note that this is my personal opinion and I'm not really telling you this as a Game Mod. I just wanted to add that little disclaimer first.

Do you really think that a proposal such as this even belongs in the UN? Let's think of what the UN is... don't you think that is sort of outside the mandate of what the UN should be? I know a lot of silly proposals are added to the UN proposal list. Yet, seriously.. you don't think that each nation should decide the laws for their own nation for some thing as trivial as retail stores?

Just for the record.. I have worked in the service industry in my youth when I first started University. So I do know that people can be jerks.. but the UN? Really... :roll:

To celebrate, I spent a VERY long time posting a UN resolution entitled "The Retail based Crimes Act", under the "Human Rights" category (A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.)

The edited highlights are that the act would make it a crime for customers to annoy staff in retail outlets

Sounds to me like a Moral Decency proposal:
"A resolution to restrict civil freedoms in the interest of moral decency"

Ballotonia

I have to agree with Stephistan on this one. It is for the individual Nations to decide that issue. The UN is not the world government, it only seeks to foster peace, and human rights, not micromanage the states. (and I know how you feel, customers can be complete idiots. but so can employers)

It might be most appropriate as a daily issue, rather than a UN resolution.

It might be most appropriate as a daily issue, rather than a UN resolution.

I agree with my fellow Ambrosiaite on this matter; it would work well as a daily issue.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

...

If you want to insist on making it a UN resolution, though, then I'd have to agree with Ballo on the point of putting it in the "Moral Decency" category.

I should also point out that mod powers on the proposal list are limited to Delete/NoDelete. We cannot edit proposals.

Finally, I suggest that you post the text of any proposal in the UN forum before you actually submit it to the UN. This way, you can find out if it's in the wrong category or not without getting an official warning on your record.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

you don't think that each nation should decide the laws for their own nation for some thing as trivial as retail stores?

It's not clear to me whether you're suggesting a change to the rules on what are acceptable proposals, a change on the interpretation of said rules in Moderator actions, declaring a political viewpoint, or merely venting frustration.

If you wish to discuss this, I suggest starting a new thread in the appropriate forum (UN? Technical? Moderation? General?). It's kinda misplaced here tagged onto the thread of a question (answered, as it seems to me) on the deletion of a proposal you don't like for reasons other than why it was deleted.

Ballotonia

I might be incorrect in my interpretation, but I believe Steph's comment was a rhetorical question implying that it is not the UN's place to even consider such trivial issues in the first place.

I would agree that the in-game UN's role should be where possible limited to the consideration of questions regarding international affairs and issues which span national boundaries. Quite apart from the inappropriate choice of category in this case, it could also be argued that the Proposal as a whole was not fit for consideration by the UN, as explained in the UN Proposal sticky written by Enodia.

This topic, the plight of retail employees, would make a good topic for a player-submitted issue, but probably not the UN.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

you don't think that each nation should decide the laws for their own nation for some thing as trivial as retail stores?

It's not clear to me whether you're suggesting a change to the rules on what are acceptable proposals, a change on the interpretation of said rules in Moderator actions, declaring a political viewpoint, or merely venting frustration.

If you wish to discuss this, I suggest starting a new thread in the appropriate forum (UN? Technical? Moderation? General?). It's kinda misplaced here tagged onto the thread of a question (answered, as it seems to me) on the deletion of a proposal you don't like for reasons other than why it was deleted.

Ballotonia

Thanks for your opinion.. although I was just responding to a thread with my own opinion that actually does belong in moderation. It's not my thread. If we were to tell every one not to post their opinion to threads in mod that was not directly related to a mod intervention.. then a lot of posts would never be posted.. even some of yours.. ;)

Quite apart from the inappropriate choice of category in this case, it could also be argued that the Proposal as a whole was not fit for consideration by the UN, as explained in the UN Proposal sticky written by Enodia.

I'd like to hear that argument. Before I posted what I did I re-read Enodia's sticky, and found nothing that would cover that. Perhaps I looked over it? Please do point it out to me.

Steph: my main comment is that you're essentially starting a new topic within the same thread. If you care to discuss it, I'd appreciate it if you'd start a new thread and I'll happily join you in it.

Ballotonia

Quite apart from the inappropriate choice of category in this case, it could also be argued that the Proposal as a whole was not fit for consideration by the UN, as explained in the UN Proposal sticky written by Enodia.

I'd like to hear that argument. Before I posted what I did I re-read Enodia's sticky, and found nothing that would cover that. Perhaps I looked over it? Please do point it out to me.

Steph: my main comment is that you're essentially starting a new topic within the same thread. If you care to discuss it, I'd appreciate it if you'd start a new thread and I'll happily join you in it.

Ballotonia

Thanks, but that was really all I had to say on the matter. If you would like to start a new thread on the topic.. by all means.. please do. I just wanted as said to add my opinion. It's done all the time.

Proposals can and do cover all manner of agendas. However, there are three broad categories of proposal which will always be removed from the queue before they become able to be voted on by the general membership of the United Nations. These three categories are:

1. Suggestions for how to change the game mechanics
2. Proposals in which the category and the description do not match
3. Proposals which are deemed unworthy of UN consideration

. . .

Not Worthy of the UN's Consideration
This is rather a subjective thing
Here are the sections to which I refer. In my (subjective) opinion, addressing the abuse suffered by retail employees in the course of their duties is a topic unworthy of UN consideration. There could be an issue in it, yes, but not a Proposal, in my opinion. I hasten to add that in this case, it appears that the Proposal was deleted for being filed under the wrong category. It could be allowed to go through if resubmitted under a more appropriate category. But this is another potential concern. Enodia might have his own thoughts, of course, but this is just my interpretation of the rules.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Proposals can and do cover all manner of agendas. However, there are three broad categories of proposal which will always be removed from the queue before they become able to be voted on by the general membership of the United Nations. These three categories are:

1. Suggestions for how to change the game mechanics
2. Proposals in which the category and the description do not match
3. Proposals which are deemed unworthy of UN consideration

. . .

Not Worthy of the UN's Consideration
This is rather a subjective thing
Here are the sections to which I refer. In my (subjective) opinion, addressing the abuse suffered by retail employees in the course of their duties is a topic unworthy of UN consideration. There could be an issue in it, yes, but not a Proposal, in my opinion. I hasten to add that in this case, it appears that the Proposal was deleted for being filed under the wrong category. It could be allowed to go through if resubmitted under a more appropriate category. But this is another potential concern. Enodia might have his own thoughts, of course, but this is just my interpretation of the rules.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Thank you for finding that Tactical.. I guess my post was not off subject after all. Good call TG! :)

Here are the sections to which I refer. In my (subjective) opinion, addressing the abuse suffered by retail employees in the course of their duties is a topic unworthy of UN consideration.

Full text of that section:
Not Worthy of the UN's Consideration
This is rather a subjective thing and the good news is that it's only used very rarely. A classic example of a proposal which gets deleted under this rule is "We propose that the UN declare war on <nation>." While the role of the real-world UN might involve warfare and the waging thereof, it isn't for this body to fight wars.

This is a bit of a 'catch-all', specifically mentioning a functional limitation (wars are supposed to be fought by players, not the UN), and IMHO not the place for additional subjective restrictions to be placed on the UN's authority. It meddles in national affairs by design, and the extent to which it does has never before been limited.

I agree with your interpretation that Enodia probably didn't remove it under this rule (even if just because it's a rarely used one anyway). Where we disagree is that I believe this proposal, when and if resubmitted in the correct category, should not be deleted using this rule.

Let's hope Enodia will clarify the matter.

Ballotonia

One other point, if you go to the UN Forum you can read the sticky on posting a proposal.
I do wonder what happened to the old (the customer is always right) saying :roll:

Semi-off topic, but has to be said -- The customer is always right seems to have given some people the opinion that to abuse staff and demand insane concessions (this shirt has a button off; I want it for 90% off) is their right.

I had one wonderful woman who handed me a credit card on which the signature strip was completely scratched off; it CLEARLY said void on the card beneath where the strip had been. I apologised and said I could not take that card, explained why, and asked for another form of payment.

She insisted, and I explained again I could not take it; as it was a store card, however, she could go to the office and have them issue a temp card until her new one came in the mail. I would hold the items, and as soon as she got back I would take her immediately.

She started yelling and cursing at me; I called my manager and handed her the card, and simply asked her to look at it. She turned it over, then handed it back and said, "You can't take this."

The woman's response was to curse at both of us and throw the goods she wanted at my face. She did not much care for it when I told my manager that I wanted her escorted from the store, and that if she were not, I was going to file charges for assault.

Why did this all happen?

Because the fact that she had a card which very probably did not belong to her, and the fact that legally, I COULD NOT accept it, did not matter to her. Even though I suggested several alternatives and called my manager over to try to deal with it, she thought that because she was a customer, she could do as she liked.

Anyone who has worked in a service industry has had to deal with pigs like that before; anyone who makes a comment like "The customer is always right," generally has not had this experience and does not realize the daily abuse that people in service industries are subject to.

This is a bit of a 'catch-all', specifically mentioning a functional limitation (wars are supposed to be fought by players, not the UN), and IMHO not the place for additional subjective restrictions to be placed on the UN's authority. It meddles in national affairs by design, and the extent to which it does has never before been limited.

I agree with your interpretation that Enodia probably didn't remove it under this rule (even if just because it's a rarely used one anyway). Where we disagree is that I believe this proposal, when and if resubmitted in the correct category, should not be deleted using this rule.

Let's hope Enodia will clarify the matter.

Ballotonia

I concur. I've never seen a proposal pulled on the grounds of national sovereignty. In fact, the "Outlaw Pedophilia" precedent would indicate that national sovereignty arguments are not grounds to delete a proposal.

Thanks for your thoughts and replies, everyone... It's cleared a few things up. I still disagree with the proposal's deletion (especially considering some of the junk that gets left in) but at least now I have a better idea how it works...

I think that this proposal would go under Moral Decency, or perhaps Social equality, but it is really up to Enodia, so if it might potentially be iffy, I'd ask him.

And while I'm here:

I have to agree with Stephistan on this one. It is for the individual Nations to decide that issue. The UN is not the world government, it only seeks to foster peace, and human rights, not micromanage the states. (and I know how you feel, customers can be complete idiots. but so can employers)
A common misconception.

What's the United Nations?

The UN is the world's governing body.

I haven't been playing NS for very long, but I do have a region which I have been elected delegate of.

To celebrate, I spent a VERY long time posting a UN resolution entitled "The Retail based Crimes Act", under the "Human Rights" category (A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.)

The edited highlights are that the act would make it a crime for customers to annoy staff in retail outlets (and if you've worked in retail outlets then you will understand why such an act would be good for the world). In fact, I even received a Telegram from another Nation in a different region thanking me for making the Proposal! :D

Earlier today I got a VERY curt telegram from "NationStates Moderators" saying "Make your UN proposals in the right category". No explanation, nothing. I found my proposal had been deleted, which I'm not very happy about, as I spent over an hour typing it, and as far as I can tell it was in the right category, not offensive, and certainly not worthy of deletion- especially when you look at some of the junk that does get left in the Proposal Queue. :?: :?: :evil: :evil:

I don't know which Mod was responsible for the Proposal's Deletion, but I would like an explanation, and an apology would be nice- certainly, a bit more than a curt telegram basically saying "Get it right, idiot!" :x :x

After this sort of treatment there is no way in hell I will be signing up for any Pay version of NationStates...

This post has been CCd to the United Nations Forum as well, to make sure a wide audience sees it.

It does illustrate an attitude problem on the part of the powers-that-be, I'd say.

How hard would it have been to change the category to a more appropriate one?

Mods are not able to change categories of UN proposals.

I haven't been playing NS for very long, but I do have a region which I have been elected delegate of.

To celebrate, I spent a VERY long time posting a UN resolution entitled "The Retail based Crimes Act", under the "Human Rights" category (A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.)

The edited highlights are that the act would make it a crime for customers to annoy staff in retail outlets (and if you've worked in retail outlets then you will understand why such an act would be good for the world). In fact, I even received a Telegram from another Nation in a different region thanking me for making the Proposal! :D

Earlier today I got a VERY curt telegram from "NationStates Moderators" saying "Make your UN proposals in the right category". No explanation, nothing. I found my proposal had been deleted, which I'm not very happy about, as I spent over an hour typing it, and as far as I can tell it was in the right category, not offensive, and certainly not worthy of deletion- especially when you look at some of the junk that does get left in the Proposal Queue. :?: :?: :evil: :evil:

I don't know which Mod was responsible for the Proposal's Deletion, but I would like an explanation, and an apology would be nice- certainly, a bit more than a curt telegram basically saying "Get it right, idiot!" :x :x

After this sort of treatment there is no way in hell I will be signing up for any Pay version of NationStates...

This post has been CCd to the United Nations Forum as well, to make sure a wide audience sees it.

It does illustrate an attitude problem on the part of the powers-that-be, I'd say.

I believe they should have really explained in further detail, like seen in this post. As much as it might have been filed in the wrong place, there should have been more of an explanation... prehaps advice, ect. You know, even a link to a thread that could give the poster the infomation they needed to not make the same mistake? There must have been a reason to why it wasn't right for the topic, but if so, there should have been some guidance to the person who posted it, not just a silly 'Not good enough, not in the right place, go away' *delete*
It doesn't matter how long it was written, or (now), what it was about.
I think the issue here is now, how the Mod who deleted it should have acted, rather than how they did.

Need a good example?!

Thanks for your thoughts and replies, everyone... It's cleared a few things up. I still disagree with the proposal's deletion (especially considering some of the junk that gets left in) but at least now I have a better idea how it works...

Now, if the person who had deleted it had only explained his/her reasons in the first place, there would have been none of this.

How hard would it have been to change the category to a more appropriate one?

Mods are not able to change categories of UN proposals.

I think she means, to move her personal post to the correct category, therefore changing the category to the appropriate one. It makes sense. ^_^