NationStates Jolt Archive

The Borderlands of Butje

Well. It looks like a smiley or a yellow hippo sh*gging a sheep.....

I suppose it's a little illegal....

I sincerely doubt that's legal.

just a little

thats legal why did you think it wasn't? it has to be really offensive you can put anything on there really apart from like a flag saying "Kill the Jews" as long as it isn't rascist you are pretty okay

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

funny though... it's not too bad. :D :wink:

The only "illegal" thing I see in that flag is that it is an animated gif.

A normal flag cannot be animated, but hey this is only a game, you don't have to be so strict here. Just look at it as if it is a futuristic flag that can change on itself.

The only "illegal" thing I see in that flag is that it is an animated gif.

A normal flag cannot be animated, but hey this is only a game, you don't have to be so strict here. Just look at it as if it is a futuristic flag that can change on itself.

There are many, many nations that use animated gifs as flags (including myself). Consider it to be futuristic nanotechnology, holographics, or perhaps its just the way it looks when it blows in the wind....

Given that photos of semi-nude or nude women are considered offensive and are replaced by mods, there's a good chance that a cartoon animation of sex with an animal will also be considered offensive.

I personally see no poblem with it, but perhaps he should not have that type of image in his flag (it is quite rude but not really).

I personally see no poblem with it, but perhaps he should not have that type of image in his flag (it is quite rude but not really).

A regionmate of mine warned me that this little chat-club was talking about my beautiful national Icon, so I decided to join the party.

I had some earlier comments about my flag, so I asked Most Glorious Hack to take a look at it. He said it was OK with him, but he couldn't speak for áll Mods. Some of them could still remove it if they wanted.

I don't find my flag offensive at all, it is just an animated smilie that I took of some other (normal) forum. There it was used by Welsh- and Scotsmen to take a piss at themselves. (Sheepshagging Welsh :wink: ) It is animated, but as mentioned above, every other nation has got an animated flag.

But once more, I don't find it offensive, it is just a cartoon of a smilie rodgering an extatic sheep from behind. If somebody (only if they have power in NS, a Mod, not anybody) really objects to it, I'll remove it. Or they will probably remove it for me. But I really don't think that is necessary in this case.

(Instead of chasing these harmless flags, you should do something about all the racist ones out there. Nazi warflags, swastika's, SS signs are everywhere, if they are allowed, this should pass the test with flying colours...)

some people would find that offensive most would find it unsuitable but not illegal

(Instead of chasing these harmless flags, you should do something about all the racist ones out there. Nazi warflags, swastika's, SS signs are everywhere, if they are allowed, this should pass the test with flying colours...)

Four legged swastikas are not allowed. Like it or not, all the rest of the fascist/racist symbols are permitted.

OK I understand, but like I said, if you allow thát stuff, my flag should not be a problem at all.

Maybe you all should get your priorities straight, focus on the real dangerous filth instead of little poor me! :roll:

And please take into account the cultural differences: Over here in Holland my flag is normal and accepted, and you can go to jail or get heavily fined for using the symbols mentioned above in the wrong way (in discriminating/threatening/demeaning other people/races/cultures).

(Can you hear me making a convincing argument for myself out of nothing here? :wink: )

(Instead of chasing these harmless flags, you should do something about all the racist ones out there. Nazi warflags, swastika's, SS signs are everywhere, if they are allowed, this should pass the test with flying colours...)

Four legged swastikas are not allowed. Like it or not, all the rest of the fascist/racist symbols are permitted.

BTW, the Dictatorship of N A Z I Germany has the swatzika flag. I've told him about it via a telegram in case he doesn't know the rules, but I thought the mods should know

Cheers
Nendeln (UN Delegate for Europe)

i dont see waht the fuss is - how can that flag be offensive? a little yellow face doin' a sheep?

i am way more offended by ads i see on tv... besides a country doesn't have to be PC does it?

that's kind of a weird thought huh? a not-politically correct nation...

peace.

hell i figure my flag is worse then that.

mmm, not the kind of flag i like, guineapig..

This is turning out to be quite the thread! Lets form groups to make it more organized and more fun!

Aminal Liberationists on the left, Nazi-haters on the right, Sheepshaggers in the back and oversensitive reporter Snitches up front.

Now, what do we think is the worst abuse you can put on your flag? What is the worst you've seen so far? When does it cross a line? I have to think about it, my answer will follow soon.

but thats the thing no one has to like it...

but if the definition for offensive is just 'some people don't like it' then its way too broad.

the root of offending to me suggests an 'attack directed at a group or person'

take myself - sure its a mouse in a trap - but i'm not attacking mouse lovers. hell, i am a vegetarian. the intent of it was just a social commentary regarding the 'rat race' i want to avoid with my nation.

take care.

mmmm, en waar zou ik dan onder vallen, dron?

well, guineapig, i never said it was illegal, just said i didn't like it http://www.stupid-boy.com/smilies/kao/chika/chirolp_nikori.gif

mmmm, en waar zou ik dan onder vallen, dron?

first I will translate this for all you Engilshspeakers who to this day refuse to speak our beautiful language, while all of us learn yours...

She said: "mmmm, and in which of the groups you suggest I would fall, dron (thats me!)?"

Well, from what I know of you I think you are a Nazi-hater. You could be an Animal-liberationist too. I don't know this for sure, you could also be very nice and cosy with your hamsters, but still eat a gigantic steak at dinner every evening. You are not a nation reporting Snitch and about the sheepshagging, hmm, well...

aaa, yeah, english, dutch, mixing the whole thing up...
sorry bout that http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/kao/chika/chirolp_poka.gif

anyway..
nazi-hater? well, hate is a strong word, but from what i know of them, i don't really agree with them.

animals? i like animals, but i still eat meat (not much, but still..)
guess that's a bit hypocrite..

a nation snitch? only griefers and cheaters like multis (who grief)

sheepshagging.... NO WAY! (ummm.... if shagging is what i think it is anyway.)

oops

oops again

well i had to think about it. and i can't really think of a picture that has offended me per se. i find pictures of ill-carnage sickening (like a kid with his brain blown out in the iraqi bombing raids) - but its not the image so much as the motive and action that perturb me.

so therefore i suppose no flag would bother me - just possibly the message it is trying to convey. furthermore, (in most cases) for me to judge that nation's prerogative would be inappropriate.... in a game like this there is no wrong in experimenting with creating a horrible place to live - in fact to do so could provide some edifying benefit and i plan on doing such myself at some time.

take care.
ps. i like your flag crazy girl (a little too feminine for my tastes - but i like it nonetheless)

anyway..
nazi-hater? well, hate is a strong word, but from what i know of them, i don't really agree with them.

WTF!?!?! You know what they did right?


sheepshagging.... NO WAY! (ummm.... if shagging is what i think it is anyway.)

Yes, it is what you think it is if you look at my flag. The smiley isn't trying to ride the sheep. Well, in some sense of the word he is, but not litterally.

My own answer: I can't stand pictures/movies of animal torture. (And then I don't mean your mouse Guinea Pig, thats not torture) Show me pictures of vivisection and I flip completely. Then I want to kill those responsible.

ja, 50 jaar geleden wel, dat weet ik wel..

maar hoe zit dat met die van nu?
zullen ook wel geen lieverdjes zijn, maar daar weet ik eigenlijk niet zoveel vanaf.

en ik vind muizevallen ook niks.
maar dierenmishandeling kan ik helemaal niet hebben.

and now i see i typed this in dutch again, damn...

o well, if it hasn't been translated yet tomorrow, i'll translate it tomorrow..
i'm off to bed..

ja, 50 jaar geleden wel, dat weet ik wel..

maar hoe zit dat met die van nu?
zullen ook wel geen lieverdjes zijn, maar daar weet ik eigenlijk niet zoveel vanaf.

en ik vind muizevallen ook niks.
maar dierenmishandeling kan ik helemaal niet hebben.

and now i see i typed this in dutch again, damn...

o well, if it hasn't been translated yet tomorrow, i'll translate it tomorrow..
i'm off to bed..

Well, I'll translate it AGAIN, then.

About the nazi's, CG says:
""
Yes, I know about 50 years ago... But how about todays nazi's. Sure they are probably not choirboys either, but I don't know a lot about them really.
""

About animals:
""
I also don't like mousetraps, and animal abuse I can't stand at all.
""

OK, lets educate you on nazis, in the past and today. Nazis are nazis, they are all the same. The ones from now support the things that happened 50 years ago, most of them even want to go back to that. They copied all the same views from the old ones. So they are scum too. They are even worse, because 50 years ago, people in Germany had something to complain: they dishonourably lost a war, we're livin with problems and poverty (NOT a justification, it just makes it more understandable why they fell for it and followed). Today these guys have evrything and can get everything they want. So they are f*cked up ungrateful mental spoiled brats, with terrible views, blaming others for their own lack of power to make something of their lives.

I have to agree with Butje -- 50 years ago the common person in Germany believed in things that we know are false now. Today's 'nazi' cannot use this defense for their actions.

I have to agree with Butje -- 50 years ago the common person in Germany believed in things that we know are false now. Today's 'nazi' cannot use this defense for their actions.

I think that the only flags that really should be banned are the ones that are big, ugly, or don't even look like flags. And nazi flags, racist flags, etc. should all be allowed...But I guess that's why I'm not a mod. By the whey, would you all want to ban a nation with the confederate flag?

I'm gonna have to say that the flag falls under the obscene part of the rules. Therefore, it will be removed.

Continue your discussion if you like, however, it will not change that the flag is over the line.

And you probably would've gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for these meddling kids...and that MOD.

And you probably would've gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for these meddling kids...and that MOD.

you watched too much scooby doo? ;)

And you probably would've gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for these meddling kids...and that MOD.

Offcourse I would have gotten away with it, but someone reported me, so then I could just as well respond.

And about the above. I don't want to ban all racist flags, I am only saying that if you allow that stuff, then this should be no problem. But it is and I'll just have to accept it...American hypocrite values. Back to the aboriginal flag it is for me :cry:

Hypocritical values?

It's hypocritical to enforce the "no obscene flag" rule and to allow nations to promote their views on an issue? Should we begin banning all flags that could be taken offensively? Or just the ones that represent an ideology that is not popular? Maybe just the ones that you dont like?

Everyone has a voice here. There are limits set (no pornography, no obscene flags, no swastikas) to that voice here. Just because you dont agree with the limits, or the voices that are allowed, doesnt mean that they're wrong, just that they're the opposing view. Dont like it, tough.

The US definition of obscene covers a cartoonish smiley and a sheep, yet doesn't cover the SS symbol. That's because the Nazi ideology is regarded as valid as any other expression while even a humorous intended depiction of sexuality is regarded as invalid (or simply: not an expression). In common Dutch values, both are expressions, and the SS symbol is considered more obcene than Butje's former flag.

I do realize this site is being ruled strictly under US standards, all I'm asking for is some understanding that what may be obvious for a US Mod may not be obvious at all for people outside the US. First time I heard the F-word being bleeped on US TV I thought something was wrong with the transmission of the TV signal, or that maybe the local station was doing that for religious reasons (as in: there's always some 'religious wacko', as the issue calls it, somewhere). It wasn't until later that I realized this is the common standard in the entire (supposedly 'free') US. *shudder*

You have succesfully removed a picture of a smiley humping a sheep. NationStates is safe again, be proud on a job well done ;)

Ballotonia

Hypocritical values?

It's hypocritical to enforce the "no obscene flag" rule and to allow nations to promote their views on an issue? Should we begin banning all flags that could be taken offensively? Or just the ones that represent an ideology that is not popular? Maybe just the ones that you dont like?


First of all: this is not about my flag anymore, forget that, not important. And I don't want to argue with you, it is just a discussion.

I already said I don't want to ban all Nazi-flags. I am only saying they are far worse than my cartoon, and they are also allowed. And yes, there is freedom of speech (Art 7 Dutch Constitution, don't know the American counterpart) and that is important, but there is also the ban of discrimination (Art 1 Dutch Constitution, in the US you have got that too probably). They are both very important and they conflict with eachother all the time, there are whole libraries written about this. The nazi stuff should fall under the freedom of speech, but it also stands for discrimination. Which side should prevail here? You can't always put everything on the former, some things go to far and have to be stopped. You already made this choice with the swastikas. They are not allowed. Why no swastikas, but at the same time let the SS signs and the other nazi-stuff pass? It stands for exactly the same thing as the swastikas do. This seems to me a bit inconsequent (lets us not use the word hypocritical, it is too heavy). You are saying: "We are banning this stuff over here, because it goes to far, but, we have to keep up and brag about the freedom of speech, so we are letting thése symbols, that fall in exactly the same category as the stuff we banned off the hook." Or you ban áll nazi-symbols, or none of them. If you really believe in what you said in the quote above... Now you are only banning the ones you don't like, and that is exactly what you told me not to do. I used the word "hypocrite" because you are so careless and sloppy with this very important issue and so strict and hard-lined with a much lighter one, that is easier to deal with.


Everyone has a voice here. There are limits set (no pornography, no obscene flags, no swastikas) to that voice here. Just because you dont agree with the limits, or the voices that are allowed, doesnt mean that they're wrong, just that they're the opposing view. Dont like it, tough.

I know. I just didn't think my flag would fall under these restrictions. I did not see it as "obscene". As I said before, I also asked Most Glorious Hack a week ago, and he also had no problem with it. And I have gotten more positive than negative responses to it, about 80% to 20%. You say everyone has a voice here. Well, why was I or anybody I know never surveyed then? I have been playing since May. The rules are set up by the creators of this game, and rightly so, because it ís their game. No problem with that. (And if I had, you should just tell me too f--- off and make my own game and you would be right). But don't say we have a voice. If all the players wanted to lift the ban on porno tomorrow, you still wouldn't allow it.

As I said, I am not asking you to change the rules: it is your game and we have to play by your rules or get out. And I will go on playing under these rules. I am just questioning your pretentious explanations on how you set these rules.

i can't believe that flag got banned

you can have a flag like the ss flag that i just saw on another country but not a silly little smiley face having a good time wth a wooly even-toed ungulate?

i get worse pop-ups and spam letters then that flag. what justifies obscene? is he inciting beastiality or animal cruelty? is he ridiculing a specific person?

can we have a poll on the forum to atleast decide what obscene should be - how about the UN? or will this just be unilateral?

i think ya'll are tripping and gotta cool your nerves... listen to the twisted jokes around the water cooler, reality tv in the "LIVING room", computer games with killing sprees, internet that shows... real people with real sheep.

i am truly disappointed that something so trivial as that simple imagery can get your... goat. take the wool from your eyes.

absent witness

I think you're missing the point. As I see it, it's not that the smiley was buggering a sheep. It was a depiction of sexual activity, and that qualifies as "obscene". That, as I understand it, is why the flag got banned.

Just because my friends and I make off-color jokes at work does not mean that it will be allowed here.

At work, there are no young teens, whereas here there are. As such, this site is held to a somewhat higher standard.

And yes, there is freedom of speech (Art 7 Dutch Constitution, don't know the American counterpart) and that is important, but there is also the ban of discrimination (Art 1 Dutch Constitution, in the US you have got that too probably).

This site is a property of an Australian citizen, not a property of the United States of America or Neatherlands.

View this as a dictatorship. Follow the rules or leave. You think it isn't fair? Leave.

I think you're missing the point. As I see it, it's not that the smiley was buggering a sheep. It was a depiction of sexual activity, and that qualifies as "obscene". That, as I understand it, is why the flag got banned.

BINGO!!

This site is a property of an Australian citizen, not a property of the United States of America or Neatherlands.

View this as a dictatorship. Follow the rules or leave. You think it isn't fair? Leave.

The server is in America, not far from where I live, in fact. As such, all content on the forums is subject to American law, by precedent. [violet] and Max would be legally responsible for any infraction that occurs on this forum, because Max owns the site and [violet]'s company owns the server.

personally I would rule it a TOS violation and a simple warning as it is not flag like, and I would replace it with this flag.
http://invisionfree.com/forums/Multi_Genre_Forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=224



=-=-=
Loop
My current flag
http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/1_infinite_loop.jpg

it's your birthday, loop?

so it is ok to have any sort of symbolism as long as at the root of it lies a political agenda that may branch off to horrible, immoral deeds? like genocide?

so what if we have young teenagers here? they should have all been to sex ed. and know what a sheep is.

how about a little disclaimer on the flag: "doing this could lead to a lot of ridicule." or how about if he censored it with a black dot?

i understand why you are saying it has to go - "because it is obscene"
i wanna know why we have to give that credit for being anything of the sort.

its just too bad that it has to be this controlled - what harm was really being done?

"red queen hypothesis" - it all has to change if we are to survive

i would like to clarify that i am not trying to be antagonistic or contentious.
these are my honest concerns.

it's your birthday, loop?

It sho Am

from the terms and conditions that we all agree to:

"someone may post content you find objectionable"
"you may encounter content posted by other users that you consider objectionable"
"this web site contains satiric content, and presents views and opinions exagerated for the purposes of parody"

so can it just be a laugh w/ some off satire?

i suppose you at least only chose one from:
"not obscene, illegal, threatening, malicious, or defamatory, does not invade the privacy or infringe the intellectual property of a third party, and does not constitute "spam." "

There are clearly drawn lines in the TOS. You use this site, you agree to said TOS. That's been explained, and it cant get much more black and white than that.

so can we not question the validity of these issues? i am willing to accept that i have agreed to these rules and will not intentionally seek to break them and i respect the right of the site operators to operate as they see fit (within ethical reason).

but i honestly feel concerend that what i see as a VERY cool idea in action here is being restrained by a conservative bureaucracy. that would better serve the interests of all involved if the focus was shifted more to nurturing the great capacity of diversity capable here. it is a micro-ethnosphere that has no limitation beyond imagination.

word.

We do nurture diverstiy - that's why Nazi flags are allowed (barring the swastika). There are some kinds of diverstiy, however, that are against the TOS and arent allowed.

Racism is a political ideology - whether wrong or right. Your flag had nothing to do with any political ideology.

should we leave the expression "black and white" in discussion, what if i feel its historical context is inappropriate?

i wrote earlier about satire - and i was actually going to write "dark satire" in my post but then i thought better of it and edited myself. understand that i was not meaning it in a bad way, but i didn't want to risk it being construed as such either.

how about if people could explain their motives behind an image or statement before judgement? how about if you let us collect our opinoins between ourselves (such as in discussions like this one) before you bring out the old blind-fold, scale and sword?

how about the flag as an allegory for the world's ctizens being like sheep getting... taken advantage of... by a small oligarchic elite?

I amde a whole pile of non swastica Nazi esque flags to see one look at the nation the true reich, or if he still exists, who gives a damn. they both had my flags up.

Or maybe it'd be better to just let this drop because now you're starting to just push the issue for the sake of pushing the issue - which is not good.

i wondered when someone would get PO'd.
all right i'll cool it - i promise i was not attacking (flaming i believe you call it?) i just have a very inquiistive mind that, admitedly, many find annoying.

so anyways - i saw a motto as follows:
"It's never too hot for butt-sex!"
(please dont ask me who b/c i dont want to be responsibe for snitching)

similar theme no? does the same rule apply?

i dont know why but i have this feeling like i am seen as challenging the system... but we're just a few people out in the world having fun with a politcial concept via an IT medium.

if you are finding what i type a source of annoyance just stop reading them - i wouldn't blame you and i do it all the time to others.

but as long as i have thoughts and opinions - a sentient curse like none other (possibly penultimate to the more innate 'lust') - i find myself obliged to research and approach understanding.

deabate has been argued as the purpose to our conscious lives - in fact i promise what i am getting from this website will take form as a passage in the poli.sci. exam i am taking tomorrow. (i will be going to bed soon)

this is my most valued learning - interaction and communication with other and all life so as for me to adopt new behaviour and thought at the benefit of experience.

i must sound really out-there (again i sympathise), maybe its all the drugs. i don't know.

Or maybe it'd be better to just let this drop because now you're starting to just push the issue for the sake of pushing the issue - which is not good.

It seems to me GuineaPig is merely trying to understand the way these judgements are made. You can respond by considerately explaining or simply shoving the 'annoyance' away.

There's human beings on the other side typing these responses, Neut. I personally don't think it's appropriate to treat 'fellow players' here as sheep. (pun intended)

Ballotonia

There are plenty of prior discussions on this issue, and I dont care to discuss the reasons again simply because our "friend" here feels the need to see just how far he can push the lines, and/or is too lazy to research his questions a little bit.

Uhm, guys, really, I wouldn't get into it with Neut. Just ask around about his reputation. If he starts sounding pissed off... give it a little while to cool down, ok? :shock:

i'm just one of those cats who likes discussion (as mentionoed previously) -and sorry i was not aware that this debate had come and gone, and a resolution has belessed 'the world', i've only had my own humble country for a day - and "i'm lovin' it" (amazing how someone without a tv or mcdee's still gets this shit in their world [can i say that word? - i do believe there is poo in the burgers]).

sorry i very often digress tangentially - ADD is my excuse

but i really don't appreciate feeling threatened or called lazy (i am though - you are absolutely right; example: 'i have a test today and i consider this forum as studying').

but i am not so lazy in this instance - afterall i am defending a flag that wasn't even mine.

i simply feel bad for the guy who had bothered to have thought up something outside the box... a symbol of his own unique thought... and had it confiscated b/c somebody asked in the forum if it was illegal. i don't think the person was even offended, but rather just curious.

originality like that is needed when there are 90,060 nations in the world all operating on a very similar fundamental program. ethnodiversity!

maybe i'm just an overly liberal pariah and i cannot possibly understand

peace (hope i don't get a "reputation")

Hi all, just woke up...

First of all, why has nobody from the opposite side responded to my arguments made above? They were completely ignored. Could this be because I am right there? (No really, I am serious.)
I’ll repeat them:
-Why do you ban Swastikas but allow SS signs? There is no difference.
-Is it really true that people have a voice on the rules, or are you just saying that?



can we have a poll on the forum to atleast decide what obscene should be - how about the UN? or will this just be unilateral?

I second that! And Neutered does too, because he said that “Everyone has a voice here.”


View this as a dictatorship. Follow the rules or leave. You think it isn't fair? Leave.

If you would have read my whole post and not only the first lines, you would have seen that I agree with that completely, but that is besides the point. Read everything or don't respond seriously, you're holding up the discussion.


There are clearly drawn lines in the TOS. You use this site, you agree to said TOS. That's been explained, and it cant get much more black and white than that.

Once again, we don’t argue that, I made this clear myself. Has anyone read my post?


but i honestly feel concerend that what i see as a VERY cool idea in action here is being restrained by a conservative bureaucracy.

I am touched, my friend!


We do nurture diverstiy - that's why Nazi flags are allowed (barring the swastika).(...)
Racism is a political ideology - whether wrong or right.

Yes, but again, why the difference between the swastika and the other symbols? There is no difference. The swastika is only the most known symbol of this political ideology, so if you really stand for what you say here, the swastika should be the first sign that must be allowed. Could it be that, because the swastika is the most famous Nazi-symbol in the US/Australia, you are banning this one, and you are letting the other symbols slide because they don’t have that big an impact? It looks like it, and that would mean that you break your own precious principles as mentioned in the quote above.


Your flag had nothing to do with any political ideology.

True, it was not meant to be political. I got the following TM from Free Outer Eugenia
“”
Received: 15 hours ago It would be offensive if your nation was called "Wales", "New Zealand" or "Arkansas"...
“”
In my opinion he is completely right. But, if I get this straight, if I had put my flag on a country named Wales, then it would be depicturing a discriminating ideology (Sheepshagging Welsh! ) and then it would have been allowed!? That’s the world upside down…


Or maybe it'd be better to just let this drop because now you're starting to just push the issue for the sake of pushing the issue - which is not good.

Could be that other players are trying to prolong the discussion by coming up with the same stuff again, but not me. I just got up and I have some questions left.

As GuineaPig says, we are not flaming at all, just questioning some things.


There are plenty of prior discussions on this issue, and I don’t care to discuss the reasons again simply because our "friend" here feels the need to see just how far he can push the lines, and/or is too lazy to research his questions a little bit.

Hey, don't call us lazy, yóu are the one not really responding to our questions, we stand for what we say and we have thought about it. And it’s cool that you had other discussions about it, but not with us. I am not trying to push the line, I am just responding to what has been said overnight and I want answers to only 2 of my questions. That’s not really so hard is it? If you don’t want to answer, ok, admit it, but don’t push us away with stuff that is besides the point and then think you solved the issue. Leave it open then.


Uhm, guys, really, I wouldn't get into it with Neut. Just ask around about his reputation. If he starts sounding pissed off... give it a little while to cool down, ok?

Now it starts getting funny. Why should we!?!? Should we fear deletion for simply saying what we think? We are just speaking our minds, are the Mods going to control this too? Is there a rule in the TOS which states that you can go on discussing valid issues, but only as long as the mods say it is ok and as long as the mods are agreed with?? That would contradict with everything Neutered Sputniks says he stands for. Think about what you are saying here!?!? If that really is his reputation in these cases, what the hell are we talking about here then!??!

Allow me to explain.

The creator of the game banned the swastika and sexual images from flags and forums. But not other stuff like SS runes. Is it the same? Debatable, and ultimately irrelevant. The important fact is, one is banned by the owner, the other is not. Those are the rules, and the Moderators are appointed to enforce them.

As for speaking your mind, you may discuss the rules and to some extent question them. However, once they are explained numerous times by several Moderators, continuing to complain in Moderation becomes most unadvisable. Wise are those who notice the line between requesting rule clarifications and harassing the Mods.

Now, do you accept the explanation I have given? I understand that you may not like it. However, please understand that you may only rephrase the same question so many times every time we respond before the character of our response changes.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Butje, whilst I sympathise with you greatly (especially after you were told by Hack, he deemed it to be ok) I would suggest that you accept the fact that Neut won't allow it.

He is the authority on this, whether we like it or not, and thus we have to do as he says - or leave. It is an injustice in my mind and I see your point when so many flags that are racist etc are allowed and their right to exist defended by 'infulential' people, but hey that's life and as this is not our sight there is seriously nothing we can do.

Neut has been given the power to, effectively, act in the best interests of the game and upold it's moral standards etc. We may not like his decision but it's his to make, not ours.

I understand and accept it completely. I already said that. I know they set the rules and that is no problem.

I just don't like the fact that people use big words like "Freedom of Speech/Political Views" and "Democracy/Everybody has a choice here." to defend it, without thinking about what they mean and what the consequences are. "Ow when I use those words people will shut up because everybody is fór Freedom of Speech and everybody is forced by society to agree with me." No. Don't make yourselves bigger than you are. Don't go hiding behind your high horse ideas and don't say that "everybody has a choice here", because that simply isn't true. Just say it how it is.

And TG's reply is simple and straightforward in this and gives all the answers: "Don't f--- with us or the rules we set or we'll delete you. BAM! And WE made those rules, just live with it." Ok, now its clear. You set the rules randomly and there is no democracy whatsoever. No problem. This answers my questions, which were only raised because Neutered implied that there was any Democracy and there was a special reason for for banning some things and letting others slide. If you would have answered them immediately, this thread would be finished yesterday, and two instead of four pages long.

And now I will continue this game, playing happily under your rules!

Butje from Holland. (Maybe the cultural differences are to blame ;) )

PS: And I am carrying on this discussion like this, because I like debating this stuff, not to take a crack at a mod or anything. My intention is not modharrassing. I just like to wrestle with people over it with words. But I understand that I am becoming a pain in the But(je) now. So playtime is over.

I know it, and you know it; Your flag was, what we call naughty. It was not very flaglike, and sexual in it's content.


You can create an image on your computer and upload it as your nation's flag.

Non-flag-like or inappropriate images are not permitted. Please don't post them.

Why not take this literaly and go look for a nicer flag. Be creative. I think you can find flaglike stuff that is goodlooking and isn't sexual. :wink:
I know of fora where they show the flags, which are not allowed on NationStates. The moderators have nothing to say about off-site flags :twisted:
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<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
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Allow me to explain.

The creator of the game banned the swastika and sexual images from flags and forums. But not other stuff like SS runes. Is it the same? Debatable, and ultimately irrelevant. The important fact is, one is banned by the owner, the other is not. Those are the rules, and the Moderators are appointed to enforce them.

As for speaking your mind, you may discuss the rules and to some extent question them. However, once they are explained numerous times by several Moderators, continuing to complain in Moderation becomes most unadvisable. Wise are those who notice the line between requesting rule clarifications and harassing the Mods.

Now, do you accept the explanation I have given? I understand that you may not like it. However, please understand that you may only rephrase the same question so many times every time we respond before the character of our response changes.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Thank you for your explanation. I'm now convinced that there's no 'grand philosophy' covering what can or cannot be done here, just a couple of statements from Max Barry/[violet] and that the Mods' (unenvyable) task is to find some sort of reasonable enforcement of these even when there's no real design or clear philosophy behind the rules to enforce.

While this certainly explains a lot (and thank you for that) it does leave a rather bad taste. Neut has a tendency to call on the authority argument ('[violet] appointed me, so...') and pretend to have 'explained' the reason for the ruling made, while I'm getting the impression people are more interested in understanding where the ruling comes from, what the underlying thoughts are that leads to the ruling. This is never given because, as I now see, no such thought process actually exists. Neut could be flipping coins, and still provide a 'thorough' explanation when he says he's got the power because he was given the power and it hasn't been retracted since. It certainly provides clarity on whatever the issue at hand is, but gives no guidelines on what is or isn't considered 'obscene' or 'too big' (for flags) or even 'flamebaiting'. Today one mod can decide one way and be Right, and tomorrow another mod can decide otherwise and be Right as well.

What's left is a rather bizarre system based on an almost total lack of published guidelines coupled with moderators who are Absolutely God-Like Always Right, unless they are later overruled by an even higher-ranked Mod who is even More God-Like Right By Definition (until in turn being overruled by [violet]).

So, once in a while a lowly player wonders "What am I allowed to do?" and will receive word that doing absolutely noting is legal (see Spoffin's thread on Mercia's case). Anything one does do may be ruled Illegal under some subjective Mods personal feeling of what should be deemed inappropriate. This may vary per mod, per player, and per day. Hack's note that while he had no problem with it, some other Mod may act anyway clearly marked it down: there are no clear rules.

So please, Mods, do not pretend there are clear rules and claim you've thoroughly explained your ruling. You haven't, because when it comes down to it, you can't.

Ballotonia

Hmm, I think that this thread should be locked. The original point of this thread has been explained and dealt with. It seems to be developing now into a mod/neut-bashing thread.

Hmm, I think that this thread should be locked. The original point of this thread has been explained and dealt with. It seems to be developing now into a mod/neut-bashing thread.

Do you think so? :?
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<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
Pacific freedom force (http://s2.invisionfree.com/The_Pacific/)

Hmm, I think that this thread should be locked. The original point of this thread has been explained and dealt with. It seems to be developing now into a mod/neut-bashing thread.

Do you think so? :?

Well, yes. The poin of this thread was to ask whether or not Butje's falg was acceptable. This question has now been answered.

Purely arbitrary, is it? We must demonstrate a clear line of thinking, a 'grand philosophy', as you put it, behind banning images with a sexual content? Now I have heard everything. I think I will just spend a bit more of my time making sure the General Forum, in which I don't even have time to post anymore, is not being spammed to death again, and lock this for a more senior Mod to have the final say.

Until next week . . .

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

I warned you guys/gals about taking this issue too far. You ignored my warnings. This is my official warning to knock it off.

I explained the reasoning behind sexual content being banned, along with the reason the SS flags are still allowed. Whether you like the explanation or not does not deny the fact that I responded, and explained.

I fail to see why it is so difficult to see that sexual content is prohibited because the OWNER OF THE SITE SAID SO. Same goes for why swastikas are banned and other "racist" symbols not - BECAUSE THE OWNER OF THE SITE SAID SO. This example has been used repeatedly, and I'll use it again here: Max could say that the word "and" is offensive to him and thus, it is not allowed in the forums. As Max owns the site, he has every stinkin right to say that, and we Mods are here to enforce it. WHETHER YOU LIKE THE REASONING OR NOT.

Any other questions?

:shock: Looks around hesitantly

Umm... Max doesn't have any current plans to ban the word 'and', does he? Just that it might make posts a little difficult...

By the way Neut is posting (All those caps, I think he is doing a US Marine Drill Instructer imitation) I think we should let this issue drop, before he drops it for us.

OK, but IS THIS FLAG LEGAL?

The Armed Republic of Music Nazis.

OK, I will drop it. You will never hear from me again in this thread. I will not put the smiley rodgering the sheep up again.


I explained the reasoning behind sexual content being banned, along with the reason the SS flags are still allowed. (...) Same goes for why swastikas are banned and other "racist" symbols not - BECAUSE THE OWNER OF THE SITE SAID SO.

How do you like my new flag!? This should be legal right?

Like? No. We don't have to like it.

Legal? For good or for ill, yes.

Discussion closed.

--Scolo

It's probably worth mentioning that images for flags are moderated more strictly on this site than is discussion. Your flags are meant to be... well, flags. It says that on the page when you upload them. We're pretty liberal on free speech; not so much on images.