NationStates Jolt Archive

Another Nation States Rant:

Studies by the Harvard School of Business prove that it is up to 25 times more expensive to attract new consumers than to maintain the ones you already have.

Further studies indicate that if a consumer has a negative customer service issue, and consequently has that issue delt with in an effective and timely manner, that customer is up to 400 times more likely to become a long time, loyal customer.

I've been playing NS for almost a year now, and I long for the pre-mod/pre-founder days. The game's been a changin' of late - and for the worse IMO. Granted, there are likely many more content players than malcontents. Of all the players though, what do you think the ratio of billion plus players to billion minus players? I would think that the ratio is weighted heavily to the billion minus players. It's easy data to collect, and if my theory is correct, there is a sound reason for it, and begs to be corrected.

The solution is as simple as the reason, reason being dissatsisfaction with some aspect of the game. Solution, find out what the users want, and try to do it.

Furthermore, it seems to be the position of the administrators that NS is the personal property of Max Berry. I propose that this is in fact a fallicy. There exists among the users of NS a "collective concious", if you'll allow. Without that collective, NS simply ceases to exist (except, of course the nuts and bolts of the server on which the site resides.) If this is in fact the truth, it's the users who will ultimately decide the fate of the game.

Modalert. Not NS Forum related.

:arrow: Moderation or General

That being said... I'm not sure why you just wasted your breath, the sit is Max Berry's and not ours. We are permitted to use it as long as we follow the owners rules.

McDonalds will die without customers. We keep it alive. Does that make it ours? No. I admit there is a difference, but I trust my point is made.

Ahhhhh,

My first debate victim...

You are in fact correct in what you say. It is what you do not say that allows me to prove you wrong. McDonalds is a fascinating example, and I'm glad you brought it up. That corporation spends millions of dollars in R&D in order to maintain it's customer base. It spends further millions in R&D to attract new customers. Why? Because the voice of society demands it. If we, as a society obligingly lined up at the proverbial trough without incentive, there would be no need for innovation.

The same is true here. The collective voice of of the NS player has the power to effect change in the game. Trust me.

Couple points.

I take it that when you say "Almost a year" you mean "7 months".

But, more importantly, you arguement is sorely flawed. First, you claim that this site is no longer the property of Max Barry, because of "collective concious". Nonsense. This site is catagorically different than your example of McDonald's, because McDonald's exists to sell product and make money, and must answer to shareholders. NationStates was a "quirky" advertising campaign to sell a book. The forums were an afterthought. Therefore, the forums are a liability. This site costs Max money. Should he pull the plug, his cash flow wouldn't not be hindered, it would be helped.

Finally, do you have any concrete examples? You state that "[t]he game's been a changin' of late - and for the worse IMO." In what way? Why do you feel this way? You simply tossed that out, and then went off into your (inaccurate) philosophy.

Couple points.

I take it that when you say "Almost a year" you mean "7 months".


I was about to argue that too. :wink:

We do seem to be gaining more new players again, too. Yes, after the mods were introduced, the nation count dropped from something like 120,000 to a low of 70,000 or so. (Largely rule-violators and/or puppets that died off) In this past week alone, I've seen a steady climb in new players.

This site is, in essence, a quirky idea Max Barry came up with to promote his book. I don't think he ever intended to try and cater to the masses to make them happy. He put this online for the heck of it, to sink or swim mostly on its merits.

All things considered, I'd say it's swimming quite spectacularly. :wink:

Couple points.

I take it that when you say "Almost a year" you mean "7 months".

But, more importantly, you arguement is sorely flawed. First, you claim that this site is no longer the property of Max Barry, because of "collective concious". Nonsense. This site is catagorically different than your example of McDonald's, because McDonald's exists to sell product and make money, and must answer to shareholders. NationStates was a "quirky" advertising campaign to sell a book. The forums were an afterthought. Therefore, the forums are a liability. This site costs Max money. Should he pull the plug, his cash flow wouldn't not be hindered, it would be helped.

Finally, do you have any concrete examples? You state that "[t]he game's been a changin' of late - and for the worse IMO." In what way? Why do you feel this way? You simply tossed that out, and then went off into your (inaccurate) philosophy.

Well first off, Crimmond brought up the McDonald's example. I was merely expanding his thought along to it's natural conclusion in support of my argument - an excellent strategy for debating.

Second of all, The True Domination is not my original nation. But thanks for illustrating a point.

I never made claim to anything being "no longer Max Barry's property." Those are your words. In fact I'm sure he holds the copyright on NS and it's related material, making it legally his. My argument is more of an intellectual one.

As for the comment I made about the game changing for the worse, I simply mean that before mods were introduced, the players of the game followed a set of unwritten rules, and governed themselves accordingly. But that was before your time, and a glorious time it was.

I've heard the tales of goatze and tubgirl spammed across the forums..."glorious" times indeed.

As you can see from my post count, you can see that I'm not much of a "poster" and never really have been. So I'm not familiar with the incidents you're referring to. Sorry.

They've been mentioned by older nations who support the fact that mods were created. I haven't been around long enough to ever experience a time without mods (not that I'd want to anyway).

It's okay. I have more posts than you, but I don't recall those incidents. I'm too new.

I joined in February, and it's been a long nine months since. I can't remember a time before the mods - I just answered issues until March. Largely, I don't see a problem with the moderators. Every roleplaying game I've ever played has had some kind of overseer system.

I've seen abusive players rip apart populations much, much smaller than NS. The only way to curtail abuse of the system is to enforce the system. While enforcers may make some users into malcontents, it permits the system to survive in an orderly, peacable fashion.

That's not to say I haven't disagreed with the mods. My Feb. nation was deleted when I flamed one of the mods. However, I haven't let a sour experience with one mod turn what I consider friendships with several others sour. The mods are not faceless machines who exist to peek over should shoulder and wag a finger at you.

They are people, and pretty bloody nice if you behave yourself. If you toe the line, expect to cross it. Learn from your mistake, and move on. Just because the mods must punish those who do not enjoy being punished does not mean they should be abolished. How many times have you seen goatze on this forum? Porn? Excessive spamming?

The fact is: NS is bloody popular. Anything which is popular will be envied. Those who would seek to ride NS' popularity do so by harrassing and breaking the rules. You wouldn't want to wake up to a forum buried in Tubgirl threads, would you?

Ultimately, the mod system of NS is, in my opinion, the game's greatest commentary on government. NS is a community. Like any community, people must behave in order to interact in any kind of meaningful manner. The Mods, like the police, like a government, keep the peace. I truly pity the people who blindly hate the mods because, one time, your thread got locked.

Viva la Moderated Collective of NationStates!

Edit: You really, really, really don't want to know what tubgirl or goatze is. Trust me.

Just thinking of tubgirl puts me on the verge of vomiting. Seriously.

*shudders* I sadly recall the Night of Goatze, which is probably the single most obvious reason mods were finally created. Back in late March, the nation of Zoland (an abusive player already), spammed every single thread in every single one of the forums with Goatze.

:shock: And that's why I love the mods.

Just thinking of tubgirl puts me on the verge of vomiting. Seriously.

Try not to think about it. Really.

Just thinking of tubgirl puts me on the verge of vomiting. Seriously.

Try not to think about it. Really.

It's not that easy. If the topic is brought up, whether directly or indirectly (as is the case here), then it's gonna plague me for a while.

Not to weigh into the debate heavily, since I'm very tired and can't lay claim to anything like the mental acuity needed to debate at something approaching my best, I'd like to raise a few points if I may.

I never made claim to anything being "no longer Max Barry's property." Those are your words.
This was in spite of the statement in the first post reading
Furthermore, it seems to be the position of the administrators that NS is the personal property of Max Berry. I propose that this is in fact a fallicy.
Now, I'll be the first to accept that there's a semantics issue here. Lord only knows that as an ex-law student it's the sort of thing I was trained to exploit. However, the fact remains that The True Domination described "the position of the administrators that NS is the personal property of Max" as "in fact a fallicy" (sic).
If we accept that a fallacy is something that is false for some reason, usually a logical one (although we'll widen the scope just a titch to enable a meaningful debate), we're left with the undeniable impression that The True Domination believes that "NS is the personal property of one Max Barry" to be a false statement. While he didn't say "it is no longer the personal property", it stands to reason that it must once have been so in order for it to be a position adopted by the administrators/moderators of the site. To claim, as he does, that "these are your words" when Hack argued that the site was and still is Max's property is a misconception.

As for the comment I made about the game changing for the worse, I simply mean that before mods were introduced, the players of the game followed a set of unwritten rules, and governed themselves accordingly. But that was before your time, and a glorious time it was.
Not quite. The unwritten rules were most assuredly there, but they were not always followed. The Perrier/Zoland issue which resulted in the appointment of moderators in the first place is a prime example. The "unwritten rule" of the site was "thou shalt not post exceedingly offensive pictures all over the place" and yet the pictures were posted.
Perhaps that's an extreme example, in that it resulted in the first mods. Have a look then at the history of UN Resolutions, therein you'll find a series of what are (or, in one case, were) game mechanics resolutions. "Expedition of Resolution Votes", for example is a game mechanics issue pure and simple - and yet it somehow got through. The same goes for the "Proper Grammar" resolution and the one asking for a Search Function for proposals. The only one of these which was adopted in a meaningful manner was the Search Function, and even then not as a result of the passage of the proposal in question.
Why do I quote these examples? In the UN, there weren't just "unwritten rules" but also very clearly written ones. "Don't post suggestions for game improvements here", "do not post the following in UN proposals:..." and so on. Yet strangely, they were flagrantly ignored.
On a more controversial topic, there were region crashings. Now, at the time that the most infamous region crashing (that of The Heartland) occurred, the rules regarding what is and isn't allowed hadn't been written at all. Perhaps some of the region crashers would have preferred it that way, but at least there is now the differentiation between the legal ones and the illegal griefing ones. On the same note, despite the written rules saying "no you can't have multiple nations in the UN", people did and some of these were used in various region crashings.

I could go on, but I'm finding it difficult to keep my eyes open.

As for the comment I made about the game changing for the worse, I simply mean that before mods were introduced, the players of the game followed a set of unwritten rules, and governed themselves accordingly. But that was before your time, and a glorious time it was.

Ah, nothing like ageism.

Funny thing about it is that people tend to forget things...

There were no Mods when I first started hitting the forums. I remember it very well. I had actually become rather active when the Perrier/Zoland knuckleheads spammed the hell out of the forums with Goatse. I also remember that before Perrier went completely nuts he was doing nonsense like banning nations from going to space, and other such goofiness.

However, every time I hear someone pining for the "good old days" of NationStates, be it March, or January, or December, or whenever, I can't help but thing of that old cliche about nostalgia. You know the one:

"Nostalgia is remembering yesterday's prices while forgetting yesterday's wages."

Or, to apply to NationStates: "Remembering the Amerigan Slave War while forgetting the spammers, goatse, tubgirl, prolific region crashers and the fact that the forums crashed every five minutes."

I remember when I started in February.

The forums didn't work at all.

Nostalgia: Fond memories of imaginary times passed

I used to have to figure my GDP with an abacus.

Not to weigh into the debate heavily, since I'm very tired and can't lay claim to anything like the mental acuity needed to debate at something approaching my best, I'd like to raise a few points if I may.

I never made claim to anything being "no longer Max Barry's property." Those are your words.
This was in spite of the statement in the first post reading
Furthermore, it seems to be the position of the administrators that NS is the personal property of Max Berry. I propose that this is in fact a fallicy.
Now, I'll be the first to accept that there's a semantics issue here. Lord only knows that as an ex-law student it's the sort of thing I was trained to exploit. However, the fact remains that The True Domination described "the position of the administrators that NS is the personal property of Max" as "in fact a fallicy" (sic).
If we accept that a fallacy is something that is false for some reason, usually a logical one (although we'll widen the scope just a titch to enable a meaningful debate), we're left with the undeniable impression that The True Domination believes that "NS is the personal property of one Max Barry" to be a false statement. While he didn't say "it is no longer the personal property", it stands to reason that it must once have been so in order for it to be a position adopted by the administrators/moderators of the site. To claim, as he does, that "these are your words" when Hack argued that the site was and still is Max's property is a misconception.

As for the comment I made about the game changing for the worse, I simply mean that before mods were introduced, the players of the game followed a set of unwritten rules, and governed themselves accordingly. But that was before your time, and a glorious time it was.
Not quite. The unwritten rules were most assuredly there, but they were not always followed. The Perrier/Zoland issue which resulted in the appointment of moderators in the first place is a prime example. The "unwritten rule" of the site was "thou shalt not post exceedingly offensive pictures all over the place" and yet the pictures were posted.
Perhaps that's an extreme example, in that it resulted in the first mods. Have a look then at the history of UN Resolutions, therein you'll find a series of what are (or, in one case, were) game mechanics resolutions. "Expedition of Resolution Votes", for example is a game mechanics issue pure and simple - and yet it somehow got through. The same goes for the "Proper Grammar" resolution and the one asking for a Search Function for proposals. The only one of these which was adopted in a meaningful manner was the Search Function, and even then not as a result of the passage of the proposal in question.
Why do I quote these examples? In the UN, there weren't just "unwritten rules" but also very clearly written ones. "Don't post suggestions for game improvements here", "do not post the following in UN proposals:..." and so on. Yet strangely, they were flagrantly ignored.
On a more controversial topic, there were region crashings. Now, at the time that the most infamous region crashing (that of The Heartland) occurred, the rules regarding what is and isn't allowed hadn't been written at all. Perhaps some of the region crashers would have preferred it that way, but at least there is now the differentiation between the legal ones and the illegal griefing ones. On the same note, despite the written rules saying "no you can't have multiple nations in the UN", people did and some of these were used in various region crashings.

I could go on, but I'm finding it difficult to keep my eyes open.

Tiredness notwithstanding, but if y'all'll allow, I might further contextualize my meaning of fallacy with regards to my specific rant as posted above: as I understand the various uses of the word, it may be properly used in the context of an overly simplified codification. Which leads me naturally back to my main point:

Altough the nuts, bolts and copyrights of NS are indeed Mr. Barry's, it is the users who reside here that have the potential to completely control the flow, mechanics, and direction of the game.

"I am not here because of the path that lies before me. I am here because of the path that lies behind me"
-Morpheus

Yes, the users do have a fair bit of say over the direction of the game. Moreso since players have been able to submit issues, which I'm sure we can all agree is a lovely little bonus which has come about recently.

However, when it boils down you've got the following situation:

Max/Administration of the site: Owns the place, pays for it. You are basically here at his pleasure - much like an old feudal monarchy. You can see this in relation to (for example) the banning of the swastika. There are a million and one arguments which people can raise about why it shouldn't have been banned, but it's not their choice in the long run.

Players: Are more than welcome to do something other than appearing here. I'm not saying "push off, we don't want your kind around no more", but if you want to create an RPing site where the rules are unwritten and remain unwritten then go right ahead. In fact, the whole business of written rules VS unwritten ones reminds me of a line Hack used recently about region crashers - "Those guys could find a loophole in a brick wall". How much more true would that be where the rules aren't even codified?

Yes, the users do have a fair bit of say over the direction of the game. Moreso since players have been able to submit issues, which I'm sure we can all agree is a lovely little bonus which has come about recently.

However, when it boils down you've got the following situation:

Max/Administration of the site: Owns the place, pays for it. You are basically here at his pleasure - much like an old feudal monarchy. You can see this in relation to (for example) the banning of the swastika. There are a million and one arguments which people can raise about why it shouldn't have been banned, but it's not their choice in the long run.

Players: Are more than welcome to do something other than appearing here. I'm not saying "push off, we don't want your kind around no more", but if you want to create an RPing site where the rules are unwritten and remain unwritten then go right ahead. In fact, the whole business of written rules VS unwritten ones reminds me of a line Hack used recently about region crashers - "Those guys could find a loophole in a brick wall". How much more true would that be where the rules aren't even codified?

My point isn't that the game doesn't need rules.

There are two aspects to the game that pertain to my line of thinking. There are the players, and there are the administrators. The players come in all shapes and sizes, and all have their reasons for playing. The administrators are the agents of the rules, and have their own reasons for accepting their respective responsibilities.

My point is only that by organizing the players into a single unit, we would wield the power to change any aspect of the game that we collectively chose to change, while the site remains in existance.

This isn't theory. It's fact. Improbable, but doable in theory.

"Ask yourself this. What is impossible to do, but if it were done, would improve your life beyond measure?"
-Albert Einstein

My point isn't that the game doesn't need rules.

Yeah, if everybody who played was a mature, reasonable person who was courteous to their fellow players. Unfortunately, in any large community, there will be malcontents or people who get their jollies by going out of their way to make other people miserable. That is why there has to be some form of regulation, to prevent a few unreasonable people from ruining things for everybody else.

To continue from Rep's point: it's tempting to say that unwritten rules can remain unwritten because people will instinctively enforce them - a sort of "collective commonsense" if you will. Unfortunately, the old saw that "commonsense just isn't very common" holds true here.
Bear in mind that we're not talking about an abstract proposition here. "NationStates without Moderators" isn't the same thing as "The world without laws" because it actually existed at a particular point. I don't know off-hand how frequently you've visited the forums - although I think there's a quick reference somewhere earlier to your frequency of forum-visitation - but I can tell you right now that they were not the nicest place to be before the mods were appointed.
It's not some hypothetical utopia you're talking about here, it's a concrete reality which existed at a particular point in time and was changed because more people wanted change.

As you can see from my post count, you can see that I'm not much of a "poster" and never really have been. So I'm not familiar with the incidents you're referring to. Sorry.
Thats pretty obvious considering you said that forum goers followed an "unwritten set of rules" before the mods were around.

Sorry, but before the mods we were up to our necks in idiots, spammers, multis, and general jackasses making things generally unpleasant.

Remember how poorly communism works in a large setting? People are greedy, and generally inconsiderant of others. Continue extrapolating along these lines ;)

Remember how poorly communism works in a large setting? People are greedy, and generally inconsiderant of others. Continue extrapolating along these lines ;)

Herein lies the problem. Stupid people.... Wrecking my utopian society of NS players where we all love each other, agree on everything, and there's no need for clothes.

Imagine the possibilities though.

*shudders

Here's hoping that ver 2 has some form of player input/control. Something of a union you can join, where there's an elected leadership, chosen by the players, and who's purpose would be to represent player's issues and concerns with the administrators.

From my understanding, NS2 is going to be amazing to work with.

From my understanding, NS2 is going to be amazing to work with.

*shakes head*

Unfortunately, you'll have to pay to play. Yes, I understand why that is needed, yet I can't help to wonder how many people will join...and how many will stay for more than a month or two. With Star Wars Galaxies up and Final Fantasy XI coming, I'd much rather get graphics and gameplay for what I pay for. I can RP for free many places, including NS1...why pay for it?

Good point, SB. Perhaps what I should have said was that NS2 will be amazing but also amazingly expensive (compared to a free game here).

Good point, SB. Perhaps what I should have said was that NS2 will be amazing but also amazingly expensive (compared to a free game here).

Will NS2 still have a forum? I'll probably just stay back here on NS1 and watch it slowly get eaten by n00bs. :cry:


~The Barkless Land of The Basenji~
Non-Moderator
Helping the good people of NS anyway he can.
The Getting Help Page (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) and Tech FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81296)
http://a9.cpimg.com/image/25/D7/21759269-e5f1-00300030-.jpg

<-------- wishes Max Barry would just break down and sell some discrete advertising space so we could let the pay for play issue die a peaceful, serene death.

There is already a long, stickied thread on this subject in the NS2 forum. Take the discussion there please.

Remember how poorly communism works in a large setting? People are greedy, and generally inconsiderant of others. Continue extrapolating along these lines ;)

Amen, Communism looks really promising, and works on paper, mainly because Paper folks dont care if their neighbor has somehting they dont, in reallife, everyone Has to have something that makes them think that they are better than their neighbors, otherwise they are upset and get depressed, it is all a ego thing, also the communism economy setup is as I believe Lenin said by a dictatorship of the Proletariat, these guys have to be dictators inorder to enforce equality, however by the time they have folks thinking Hey I liek being the same the guys who are Dictators, they start thinking, Hey I like this Job, I like telling folks to do stuff or sending them to the Gulag if they dont do what I say, and they dont want to give up the Job, and that is when Communism becomes evil.if Lenin hadnt let Stalin in, perhaps Communist Russia woudl be a rolemodel for the world today, not a embarrasing memory.

Why I want to be General Secretary of the USSR
by Little Infinite Loop, age 8



<-------- wishes Max Barry would just break down and sell some discrete advertising space so we could let the pay for play issue die a peaceful, serene death.

Amen

Will NS2 still have a forum? I'll probably just stay back here on NS1 and watch it slowly get eaten by n00bs. :cry:

I can't imagine NS of any variety without a forum or 12. But then again, I'm not as well up on what NS2 will/won't have as some other players or mods are.

Um... pardon the n00b, but what is goatze or tubgirl? I hear horrificly cryptic references, but I have no clue what happened.

Um... pardon the n00b, but what is goatze or tubgirl? I hear horrificly cryptic references, but I have no clue what happened.

In short, they are two of the most obscene, disgusting, and vulgar images you can find on the web.

Um... pardon the n00b, but what is goatze or tubgirl? I hear horrificly cryptic references, but I have no clue what happened.

In short, they are two of the most obscene, disgusting, and vulgar images you can find on the web.
And some jerk threw them across the forums? I'm guessing goat porn on the first, but the other... :?:

The Disgusting Story of Early NS (Heavily Sanitised Version)

Both goatze and tubgirl are sites which contain exceedingly disgusting pictures. To say any more would be to leave people with bad mental images, trust me.
As such, they serve as wonderful weapons for objectionable people to post on message boards - like NS.

Back in the days before mods existed, two nations called Zoland and Perrier went rampant on the forums. I'm not sure if they were actually the same person, but popular opinion was that they were.
They started off innocently enough by godmoding and engaging in some minor flaming and spamming. Eventually, it got to the point where things were getting out of control.
A sort of RP-alliance called WMNK had formed up in order to prevent the worst excesses of godmoding and Perrier - under the guise of "The Most Moral Order" - joined up and tried to dissolve the group. He also made various interesting announcements including that going into space was banned. The situation got so bad that The SLAGLands and a host of other "usual suspects" from the forums declared war on Perrier - giving rise to the famous cry of "Perrier, you're dead: STAY IN CHARACTER".

Undaunted, Zoland and Perrier now became insane spammers and posted pictures from the goatze and tubgirl sites as frequently as possible.
Kitsylvania (one of the great old-timers), when he wasn't explaining that Perrier couldn't conceivably have conquered him, waged a long campaign to prevent these pictures being viewed. One of the offensive nations even went as far as making an "apology" which just contained more offensive pictures.
Eventually, [violet] deleted both nations and (I think) IP banned them. The immediate followup to this was the appointment of the first mods.

I've only ever seen the top 1/3rd of the goatse image- that much was enough to make one want to claw their eyes out, and I hit the Back button real quick. I can't even properly recall what I saw, actually :shock: I've heard tubgirl has something to do with feces and someone's mouth, though I would not swear to it, nor do I particularly care to go verify it one way or another :P

If one is really that desperate to know, it's easy enough to do a google search. I wouldn't recommend it, but that's always possible.

Hearing these stories makes me very glad mods exist now. I was scanning the forums when I found a few quotes that you've given, esp the "Space is banned." quote. I had the list on my comp for a while, but I guess I deated it. At least now I understand the quote!

Anywho, thanks for the info, and I'm going back to Nation States forum. :arrow:

Oh, also, when pondering the horror that is Goatse, remember the fact that only three words are auto-edited: fuck, ****, and goatse.

I am not for the ridicuolus idea of abolishing mods, tho I do feel that some of the grey areas of rules are a bit too grey (a completely different subject). I think the game benefits from moderators, tho I am not going to say that they are always right, or that they always have the game held in front of them rather then personal interests. Before you bash me, this is rare. It happens very rarely, and would likely happen whoever you choose. The mods are people, and they have had to appologize just a few times. Regardless, they do a good job for the most part and I am suspect of anyone that wants them stripped away.

That said, it wasn't always good but you guys make it sound like there was Goatze out the ying-yang before the moderation team. It happened, but it isn't as if the pre-multi mods days were all bad either.

Another Nation States Rant:

Studies by the Harvard School of Business prove that it is up to 25 times more expensive to attract new consumers than to maintain the ones you already have.

Further studies indicate that if a consumer has a negative customer service issue, and consequently has that issue delt with in an effective and timely manner, that customer is up to 400 times more likely to become a long time, loyal customer.


Are you talking about consumers here or customers? You use both terms.

Do we consume the NS site?
Can we be defined as customers when there is no transfer of capital to those behind the NS site?

At best we (NS users) could be described as a client base...

Hack, remember that "outwar" is edited as well.

Please allow a simple view to this matter. I, finding myself on the hitlist of a moderation decission, chose to leave the game, due to an issue of integrity. I later rejoined the game, as a totally new player. Upon my return, I spoke out in, what I felt was, a fair manner.
I offended some of the Moderators in doing this. As my purpose was to do nothing of the sort, I issued an appology and a promise to be more considerate in what I was posting.
The Moderators are human and do make some mistakes along the way. This was not the case in my former situation. The Moderators took the actions, they deemed to be, necessary.
Even though, I felt, that not enough had been done, I had no right to be offensive towards the Moderators.
I was not looking for any exception to the rules be made.
The Moderators acted in the matter in accordance to the rules, which, from the things I have seen, is the normal way they do things.
I know for a fact, that without the Moderators keeping offensive and rule breaking players off the game, I would not be here playing at all. This is one of the best free games on the internet and part of the reason for that is the work the Moderators do. Would you allow your child to play this game if it wasn't Moderated?

I know "Perrier" and "Zoland" personally. Seriously... they were the ones to turn me on to NS in the first place.

I know "Perrier" and "Zoland" personally. Seriously... they were the ones to turn me on to NS in the first place.

*eyebrows hit the ceiling*

I know "Perrier" and "Zoland" personally. Seriously... they were the ones to turn me on to NS in the first place.

*eyebrows hit the ceiling*

Yeah... it was actually two guys... both friends. The first named his nation Perrier because he always drank "perrier" bottled water. I cant remember how Zoland got his. Yeah... I didn't find out until a month or two after it happened. Needless to say I asked them what went through their heads.

True story, scouts honor.

So tell us Man, what was going through their heads?

Well they both have a strange and sick sense of humor. They just got really bored and decided to have some fun. Neither of them found Goatze or Tubgirl sickening in the least. They told me they couldnt stop laughing as they did it.

*shrugs* I don't know... that was a long time ago. The truth of the matter is one still operates a country here on NS, although they don't post on the forum anymore.

One should write a book on "What goes through the mind of a Spammer". Quite an intresting read, wouldn't it be? See why they do the things they do, and what goes through their mind when it happens. I'd read it.


~The Barkless Land of The Basenji~
Non-Moderator
Helping the good people of NS anyway he can.
The Getting Help Page (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help), Tech FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81296) and The Game FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/pages/faq.html)
http://a9.cpimg.com/image/25/D7/21759269-e5f1-00300030-.jpg

One should write a book on "What goes through the mind of a Spammer". Quite an intresting read, wouldn't it be? See why they do the things they do, and what goes through their mind when it happens. I'd read it.


~The Barkless Land of The Basenji~
Non-Moderator
Helping the good people of NS anyway he can.
The Getting Help Page (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help), Tech FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81296) and The Game FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/pages/faq.html)
http://a9.cpimg.com/image/25/D7/21759269-e5f1-00300030-.jpg

Here's the answer to your book:

"Post Count +1. W00t."

The Universal Guide to All Things TRSN

History of the Terran Republic (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94265&highlight=)
Starships (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94198&highlight=)
Starship Weaponry (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94238&highlight=)
Infantry Weapons (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94229&highlight=)

One should write a book on "What goes through the mind of a Spammer". Quite an intresting read, wouldn't it be? See why they do the things they do, and what goes through their mind when it happens. I'd read it.

Here's the answer to your book:

"Post Count +1. W00t."
What about those that know their threads will be deleted/they will be deleted?

One should write a book on "What goes through the mind of a Spammer". Quite an intresting read, wouldn't it be? See why they do the things they do, and what goes through their mind when it happens. I'd read it.

Here's the answer to your book:

"Post Count +1. W00t."
What about those that know their threads will be deleted/they will be deleted?

Well, I guess they would be sadomasichist spammers, which I hereby dub "Sadomammers". These sadomammers get a kick out of pain, and watching their nations be DEATed is like cutting themselves, but without the blood.

NOT MEANT TO OFFEND OR DEMEAN CUTTERS OR RELATIVES OF CUTTERS! THIS IS DIRECTED AT SPAMMERS!

The truth of the matter is one still operates a country here on NS, although they don't post on the forum anymore.

Odd, I thought they'd been IP banned.

Thank you, Saul 2 Paul, you are quite correct, without Mods, this would be a very different place indeed. I know what I have deleted and edited out, I have sped up the wheels of Moderation regarding a couple of multi armies, and although few people ever see any of this, if my colleagues and I were not around to get rid of this stuff, believe me, you would notice the difference. People would be leaving the site in droves out of frustration at having their threads flamed and spammed with impunity, far greater numbers than the few unnoticed protest votes we might be getting now regarding alleged "oppression" or however they may wish to term it. Those who ask for a world without a criminal justice system do not know what they are really asking for either. Someone has to maintain the peace, and as Mod collectives go, this one is pretty permissive and accountable. In other places you get a Mod sniper's bullet and no explanation for even mentioning some of the stuff that gets debated here.

Regarding the mind of forum spammers, the thought of what motivates them has crossed my mind before. I believe the subject may be worthy of a thread in General. I will try to find some online literature too. Maybe someone has done a study, who knows?

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Thank you, Saul 2 Paul, you are quite correct, without Mods, this would be a very different place indeed. I know what I have deleted and edited out, I have sped up the wheels of Moderation regarding a couple of multi armies, and although few people ever see any of this, if my colleagues and I were not around to get rid of this stuff, believe me, you would notice the difference. People would be leaving the site in droves out of frustration at having their threads flamed and spammed with impunity, far greater numbers than the few unnoticed protest votes we might be getting now regarding alleged "oppression" or however they may wish to term it. Those who ask for a world without a criminal justice system do not know what they are really asking for either. Someone has to maintain the peace, and as Mod collectives go, this one is pretty permissive and accountable. In other places you get a Mod sniper's bullet and no explanation for even mentioning some of the stuff that gets debated here.

Regarding the mind of forum spammers, the thought of what motivates them has crossed my mind before. I believe the subject may be worthy of a thread in General. I will try to find some online literature too. Maybe someone has done a study, who knows?

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Personally I think that people would go off-site with their RPing stuff.
Without moderators people would simply do issues here, and do RPing on other sites.

Pacific Freedom Force (http://s2.invisionfree.com/The_Pacific/)

Personally I think that people would go off-site with their RPing stuff.
Without moderators people would simply do issues here, and do RPing on other sites.
And NationStates would a lifeless, empty shell. :shock:

The great thing about NS, as Max Barry said, is that in spite of its simplicity and limited nature, tens of thousands of people have come along and built their own communities. Allowing the spamming and flaming to go unchecked would erode that.

"Those guys could find a loophole in a brick wall"


I love this quote. I think I've just found my new national motto. :D

Regarding the mind of forum spammers, the thought of what motivates them has crossed my mind before.It's very simple. A spammer wants attention. Any attention, even negative, will do.

That said, it wasn't always good but you guys make it sound like there was Goatze out the ying-yang before the moderation team. It happened, but it isn't as if the pre-multi mods days were all bad either.

Yah. It really wasn't that bad. But then, I kinda like the wild, wild West. The only part that really bothered me was that it was tough to get onto the forums and the forums were always crashing.

That said, it wasn't always good but you guys make it sound like there was Goatze out the ying-yang before the moderation team. It happened, but it isn't as if the pre-multi mods days were all bad either.

Yah. It really wasn't that bad. But then, I kinda like the wild, wild West. The only part that really bothered me was that it was tough to get onto the forums and the forums were always crashing.

Now that is incredibly true.

WOOO HOOOOOO!

I finally made a thread that became a "hot topic"!!

One more check on the to do list...

8)

~my sense of accomplishment has hit an all time low~

Thank you, Saul 2 Paul, you are quite correct, without Mods, this would be a very different place indeed. I know what I have deleted and edited out, I have sped up the wheels of Moderation regarding a couple of multi armies, and although few people ever see any of this, if my colleagues and I were not around to get rid of this stuff, believe me, you would notice the difference. People would be leaving the site in droves out of frustration at having their threads flamed and spammed with impunity, far greater numbers than the few unnoticed protest votes we might be getting now regarding alleged "oppression" or however they may wish to term it. Those who ask for a world without a criminal justice system do not know what they are really asking for either. Someone has to maintain the peace, and as Mod collectives go, this one is pretty permissive and accountable. In other places you get a Mod sniper's bullet and no explanation for even mentioning some of the stuff that gets debated here.

Regarding the mind of forum spammers, the thought of what motivates them has crossed my mind before. I believe the subject may be worthy of a thread in General. I will try to find some online literature too. Maybe someone has done a study, who knows?

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

My point in starting this thread wasn't to bash mods, or even promote a modless NS. Quite the opposite, actually.

The next logical step in the evoloution of the game seems to add to what is already here - not detract from it. The mods do a great job ridding us of people that want to trash up the game. The next logical step seems to be to add a new, exciting layer to the game - a documented appeal process.

A new forum, moderated by the players of NS through an elected body of players who represent the players, and are directly responsible to the players....

Am I the only one that sees this as an opportunity to expand the game beyond what it is now and open a new chapter in NS?

Am I the only one that sees this as an opportunity to expand the game beyond what it is now and open a new chapter in NS?
I saw it too, but my idea got mothballed pretty quickly. The NationStates Court of Appeals.