NationStates Jolt Archive

there is another controversy over the invasion of the pacific. That has to do with whether or the act of crashing is at all a legitimate part of nationstates. According to the introduction to the game, nationstates is a game in which players will "do what they will." In otherwords, Nationstates is a simulation of realpolitik diplomacy in which the Hobbesian world of "all versus all" is assumed and expected. In such a universe, invasions are not only common but expected. Furthermore, the FAQ specifically accepts the possibility of region crashing and in fact spells out conditions in which crashing is acceptable under the game's rules.

and let's face it. were crashing not part of the game, what would be the point of playing this game??

The rules explicitly describe two forms of griefing. One in which nations expell nations that are part of a region. Another is when multis are used to sack a region. These types of region crashing are explicitly forbidden for region crashers to use in invasions.

There exists a double standard among crashers and those who attempt to thrawt crashers, known as defenders or "antis." In the Pacific, there is damning evidence that antis, specifically from CGs Place and the RRA, under the Restraunt of Xcelsior (also known as Greymarshes) have used multis in an attempt to beat Francos. I have complained about this to the Get help page and received no assistance. Furthermore, there is damning evidence that reveals that the moderator [violet] has given CGs Place and possibly other antis with information that could have given the antis an unfair advantage in the successful coup. the involvement of [violet] certainly calls into the integrity of the game, particularly since it appears that one who controls the rules of the game could be tipping the game in a certain direction making decisions that are biased in favor of antis and against crashers.

There have been other complaints among crashers, who are a legitimate part of nationstates. Primarily, there are concerns that antis commonly grief crashers when antis gain control of a region. This is against the rules for crashers, but this has never been challenged when antis apply this tactic to crashers.

Frankly, there are double standards and conflict of interests involving the mods and crashing. There needs to be a mod who can counter this undue support of antis by [violet]. There needs to be equal treatment of crashers and antis regarding multis. There needs to be clarification regarding the ability of nations being seiged to grief invaders (seiged nations ought to have to endure temporarily an attack) and the ability of defending nations to expel invaders (defending nations that take over power from seiged nations are attacking as invaders, aren't they? And they are also griefing the invading nations. this ought to be against the rules).

KGB Informant

Very eloquently put. Would you like to share this 'damning evidence'?

And just for the record: [violet] is not a mod. [violet] is the admin in charge of this game, equal only to Max Barry.

~Evil Empress Rep Prod the Game Mod

Neut DEATed 145 multis, IIRC....

I'd like to see some of this evidence myself.

No doubt, the evidence cannot be provided in order to protect the source. :roll:

Whatever.

Sheol? Is that you? We missed you if it is....

And just for the record: [violet] is not a mod. [violet] is the admin in charge of this game, equal only to Max Barry.

is [violet] god? at what point is [violet] going to let go and let people play the game according to the rules? If [violet] is unhappy with crashing, let [violet] abolish crashing. if not, crashers need an equal to [violet] or [violet] needs to stop aiding antis!! :!:

oh there's evidence. it's a scandel. [violet] did not cover its tracks.

And just for the record: [violet] is not a mod. [violet] is the admin in charge of this game, equal only to Max Barry.

is [violet] god? at what point is [violet] going to let go and let people play the game according to the rules? If [violet] is unhappy with crashing, let [violet] abolish crashing. if not, crashers need an equal to [violet] or [violet] needs to stop aiding antis!! :!:

Newsflash: as far as this game is concerned... yeah. The person who coded it pretty much is God. Crashing is not the only reason to play this game. If you can't be bothered to, say it with me, have meaningful interaction here, then you deserve to be self-mired in this controversy.

oh there's evidence. it's a scandel. [violet] did not cover its tracks.

So out with it already. All mysterious conspiracy talk and no actual proof makes people very unhappy.

that's not at issue here. crashing IS part of the game. IT'S IN THE RULES! there needs to be a decision: is crashing legit or not??? and guess what, politics and life is "nasty, brutish and short!" Let's see you deny the proof of [violet]'s betrayal!

[violet] needs not do anything. It's [violet]'s game after all. S/he built it, s/he maintains it, s/he ensures that when things go wrong with the server that prevent us from playing the game, they are corrected. S/he is the ultimate authority on this board. There is noone higher. Nor should there be. All Mods are, in the end, entirely under their rule. S/he maketh the moderator, and lo she may taketh them away.

This is not a democracy. If anything, it's a Father-Knows-Best State. Please remember this for later. If you dislike the fact that there is someone you can't hold accountable (like [violet]) then please, door's to your left.

WHoaaaaaaa

5 mods watching this topic. I can see the time comming where there will be more police than citizens.

:shock:

oh there's evidence. it's a scandel. [violet] did not cover its tracks.

Well, put your money where your mouth is and produce it.

Yeah, especially that Neutered Sputniks. I bet he and [violet] are in together on Francos' payroll... Maybe all three are the same person, and [violet] just wanted to screw over the invasion and make one of "it's" puppets take the fall!!!

what is their rule? They can't say crashing is legit and then actively try to make crashing against the rules and act biased against crashers. And yeah, if I can't crash, then this game sucks cock and I won't play it.

i have proof. sputniks and reploid productions can backchannell me, I cant contact them with the means I have available to me. And my friend and I already complained to the get help page - twice now. no response yet.

WHoaaaaaaa

5 mods watching this topic. I can see the time comming where there will be more police than citizens.

That's kind of what I'm getting at too. [violet] has to let it go! if not, what kind of experiment in politics and government is this? it'd be like pre-school recess when the rules changed just to ensure the rulemakers won.

YEAH!!!! [violet]'s in on teh conspiracy with teh mods and Franos!!!!!!11

I bet that glitch wasnt accidental! Its all a conspirasy aganst teh playerz!!!!111111111

Consider.

Most people who invade other regions do so illegally, usually by UN Multies. There are only a tiny segment of the populace who do so legally. As such, the Moderators are somewhat on the prowl, so to speak, with region-crashers. They have stated it's not against the rules, but there's a fine line between region-crashing and griefing, and the Mods must make sure that such a distinction remains established.

i have proof. sputniks and reploid productions can backchannell me, I cant contact them with the means I have available to me. And my friend and I already complained to the get help page - twice now. no response yet.

Sheol? Is that you?

I bet they didnt even run multi scans on Francos' endorsers last night!!

I bet they didnt even run multi scans on Francos' endorsers last night!!

I like your name. I have mistaken you with a certain moderator.

what about the people who are defending illegally with multis like Greymarshes (whose multi is Restraunt at Xcelsior)!?? or like Crazy girl or the GLA who have griefing crashers out of regions the antis have been conquering? Where does it say in the rules that it's legit to grief crashers? It CANT be legal! Think about it - the new rulers are now griefing the newly arriving nations and it cant be legal to tip off antis with insider information when there's an invasion! it calls into question the integrity of the game!

If crashing would be illegal, I would be already bored and probably IP banned.

And just for the record: [violet] is not a mod. [violet] is the admin in charge of this game, equal only to Max Barry.

is [violet] god? at what point is [violet] going to let go and let people play the game according to the rules? If [violet] is unhappy with crashing, let [violet] abolish crashing. if not, crashers need an equal to [violet] or [violet] needs to stop aiding antis!! :!:

well I have long believed that there needs to be a GM from the rank of the invaders or even a former invader who knows how both sides work, Invaders are a unrepresented minority, they need their Malcom X, or more appropriately, their own Dr.King.

And just for the record: [violet] is not a mod. [violet] is the admin in charge of this game, equal only to Max Barry.

is [violet] god? at what point is [violet] going to let go and let people play the game according to the rules? If [violet] is unhappy with crashing, let [violet] abolish crashing. if not, crashers need an equal to [violet] or [violet] needs to stop aiding antis!! :!:

well I have long believed that there needs to be a GM from the rank of the invaders or even a ormer invader who knows how both sides work, Invaders are a unrepresented minority, they need their Malcom X, or more appropriately, their own Dr.King.

there's becoming a fine line between crashing and defending. the antis follow defenders everywhere crashers go. Every time antis shut down crashers, the antis usurp power from natives. every time antis gain power in a region, they grief crashers and purge them into the RR. antis like greymarshes/xcelsior and cg have become so desparate that they rely on mods to tip them off and multis to hover around legit crashers. so who are the real "crashers"? The so called "crashers" or antis like the RRA and CG and the GLA who are taking over all sorts of native regions and griefing all sorts of nationstates.

what about the people who are defending illegally with multis like Greymarshes (whose multi is Restraunt at Xcelsior)!?? or like Crazy girl or the GLA who have griefing crashers out of regions the antis have been conquering? Where does it say in the rules that it's legit to grief crashers? It CANT be legal! Think about it - the new rulers are now griefing the newly arriving nations and it cant be legal to tip off antis with insider information when there's an invasion! it calls into question the integrity of the game!

Then, inform other Moderators, and they shall do UN Multi checks, and the offender will be removed.

The Mods are not Omniscient. They can only do work on stuff they know about...

I've complained about this twice now and no response. and let's face it, this invovlement from [violet] seems bizarre, biased and utterly unfair. There's a significant amount of unrest from the regions regarding these issues in the regions in which I've travelled.

Is it, perhaps, possible that they were not UN Multies at all, and as such is why there was no judgement on the Moderator's behalf.

Also, [violet] almost never speaks unless her will is not being enforced. Most of the time it is. She lets the Mods speak for her, when they aren't, she speaks for herself.

Which is why [violet] sightings are so rare...

i feel like you're ducking my questions

KGB Informant:

1) The game admin is not anti-region-crashing. Last night, she went so far as to override the will of one of his/her most trusted mods to protect invaders.

2) What do you have against Greymarshes? First you send me all these messages accusing him of being some sort of traitor, when he's one of the oldest and wisest people the Rejected Realms has. Now this. I know his nations, and none of them are in the UN at present. What's your motive?

I bet they didnt even run multi scans on Francos' endorsers last night!!

According to the mods, they multi scanned both Francos' suporters and the invaders.

As a founding member of the GLA, I would like to know when we grifed the raiders? I would like to know when any member of the GLA was nailed for mutli's? I know it pisses you off that we can raise 40 nations in an hour, but we don't multi. We have serious warnings against it on our forum... so.. I don't believe it. We puppet like crazy, but not multi.

Please, be specific about a region. It's it's true, and it's a real griefing, I'll take action. If this is the standard, "Anti's don't let us raid so we're mad..." then I've heard it before and ignored it then too.

The only region I can think that MIGHT be considered griefing was a region Villager Pillager took, griefed, and destroyed and we took back right before the MODS crushed him for admitting he griefs openly on his regional board. (Thanks Svirre) That region was liberated from a raider and we opened it up to the original natives. Other then that, I'm sorta stumped on the "The GLA Griefs raiders."

And, Nutty Sputlickers, the one thing the MODS did do all last night was run IP scans. Every few minutes, a gaggle would die off. It was kinda cool to watch the MODS in action.. and then it went terrible uncool in a hurry. So Nutty, I know your funny... but be accurate too.

-Drakma-

oh there's evidence. it's a scandel. [violet] did not cover its tracks.

Then SHOW IT.

Show your evidence, or do not make public accuasations against players who have blameless records.

from cg's place this morning
drakma - you wish. you can't do anything without the support of the fucking mods. and you and the GLA "grief the raiders" every fucking time you kick us into the RR.

5 hours ago The Dictatorship of Crazygirl the pacific invasion is on! move to the pacific, we have 40 minutes!!

5 hours ago The Dictatorship of Crazygirl [violet] said we could!

5 hours ago The Free Land of TigersPaw9 Yes admin had said all can come back in, there will be no more chances, it is now! Corinthe needs at least 15 endorsements in 30 minutes! Now is the time! Please come endorse her....the clock is ticking.
If you want to see Franco walking up to the Rejected Realms with his bags in his hands and his head hung low, go show support now and endorse Corinthe.....
There should be democracy for the Pacific again! We only have 30 minutes to get 15 endorsements for her!

5 hours ago The Democratic Republic of The Internationale Hail comrades, I am new to this region. How is everything?

5 hours ago The Oppressed Peoples of Stradt I come to you fine folks in this time of need. I need to ask you who are currently active and UN nations if you could please go to The Pacific and endorse Corinthe. We need your support now more than ever. You needn't stay there indefinitely... two hours should suffice our cause. Thank you all greatly, and God bless.

Erin go bragh!

from cg's place this morning
drakma - you wish. you can't do anything without the support of the f--- mods

5 hours ago The Dictatorship of Crazygirl the pacific invasion is on! move to the pacific, we have 40 minutes!!

5 hours ago The Dictatorship of Crazygirl [violet] said we could!

5 hours ago The Free Land of TigersPaw9 Yes admin had said all can come back in, there will be no more chances, it is now! Corinthe needs at least 15 endorsements in 30 minutes! Now is the time! Please come endorse her....the clock is ticking.
If you want to see Franco walking up to the Rejected Realms with his bags in his hands and his head hung low, go show support now and endorse Corinthe.....
There should be democracy for the Pacific again! We only have 30 minutes to get 15 endorsements for her!

5 hours ago The Democratic Republic of The Internationale Hail comrades, I am new to this region. How is everything?

5 hours ago The Oppressed Peoples of Stradt I come to you fine folks in this time of need. I need to ask you who are currently active and UN nations if you could please go to The Pacific and endorse Corinthe. We need your support now more than ever. You needn't stay there indefinitely... two hours should suffice our cause. Thank you all greatly, and God bless.

Erin go bragh!

Well, I'll admit. I was hoping for something more creative than this. So, your saying that because [violet] decided to let the invasion go forward that they are favoring one side over the other? They let an invasion go forward, nothing more. Everything was out in the open.

shrug I guess that shows me not to get my hopes up.

check it:
http://invisionfree.com/forums/The_West_Pacific/index.php?showtopic=216&st=0#entry2681

The decision was not to interfere. That got mucked up, and [violet] restored the "we are not interfering -- so do what you can."

Perhaps what you don't understand is that the reason s/he did not erase hir tracks is because it was done openly, under the eyes of everyone online at the time? You erase tracks when you have something to hide, yes?

face it. this says that you cheat.

Look the Moderators did scan the endorsers and a few were deleted last night I saw this.

What I want to know is why in the hell did we have to stand down, we worked our butts off getting people in there, and the magintude of it was bypassed by all of the Moderators and others.

Please let me break it down for you, in 16 hours we had enough people in the Pacific to rightfully take the Delegate Seat, then we were told, ordered, or forced to stand down, however you want to view it.

These were nations for the most part, from all over NS, not just one region, not just one group, and not just one person. Why is this being over looked.

We did it, we were there, we had the numbers to make it happen. Then the orders were stated by a Moderator, when questioned another Moderator came in and basically told us to follow what was said. We did. Then come to find out we lose by a few endorsements, because some of us went off line after leaving the Pacific, disheartened once again that Francos Spain got to the Moderators again. Not letting the nations of the NS world settle this on their own.

Words and promises were given and they are now taken back.

Greifing a region to my way of thinking and please correct me if I am wrong. I understand the 40% thing, but Francos Spain and his "friends" have baned together more than that, at one point there was over 500 nations baned from the Pacific, all within a day or two, does that not count for something? anything?

What about the eighty nations that he baned? what about the nations that he baned today that were natives of the Pacific? Him and His Government are not natives of the Pacific, they moved there from different places.

I don't know anymore, I respect the Moderators, I have a feeling that their jobs are harder than anyone really knows, but I am disheartened to know that they would back someone that not one or two nations would like to see removed, but alot of the NS world would not mind seeing removed from the seat of power in a region that starts nations, after all I have been asked by new nations if the South Pacific is like the Pacific, and I tell them no, please come and see for yourslef how it is in the South Pacific and do not gauge the Pacific as the normal way things are done in NS.

It makes me wonder how many new nations are going to cease to exist because they were created in the Pacific, and not somewhere where the delegate takes time to answer their questions honestly.

face it. this says that you cheat.

were crashing not part of the game, what would be the point of playing this game??

:lol:
Ok, so because region crashers were allowed to proceed without interference, which is what you state is in the rules, it's cheating.

That IS hypocrisy.

drakma - you wish. you can't do anything without the support of the f--- mods. and you and the GLA "grief the raiders" every f--- time you kick us into the RR.

Any proof would go a long way to help you here. What do you think the MODS do for us? We ask for IP Scans and get them... If you grief, we report it.

If you enter a region and so do we, you are not natives so booting you all is not illegal. If we passlock a region and leave we T-gram all the natives we can verify. You may not like that we play by the rules and win, but we do play by the rules.

We don't multi... we don't raid a region full of natives... We once raided a raider region... but we all left the next morning without ejecting anyone or, if I remember, saying a single word on the regional board.

So, please.... evidence. How about a regions name and a time frame. Would go a long way towards restoring credibility. You can't level a claim at a 3 groups and then waltz away from one of them.

As for [violet] and CG... A mod told them to leave and a mod (admin) told they could come back.

Has a mod ever told you, "Hey, you can't go into that region! You can't raid!" No, raiding... while loathesome... is totally legal. The Raid on the Pacific was totally legal too.

Man.. if that's your evidence... you'll have to think twice about why the mods aren't helping you when you call for aid.

-Drakma-

why was this group of antis given special information? how can they be so elevated as to get special insider information? what are the rules on crashing? It sure as hell looks to me, and a lot of us, like [violet] is saying: "sure! here's a tip! there are invaders in the pacific. go stop them!"

btw, -drakma- tell sythla to stay the hell out of new world empire. we're fucking sick of your spies.

Sheol? Is that you? We missed you if it is....

I don't know. I know he returned as Neo Sheol, but was deleted for some reason. I wished he'd replied to my telegram first. :(

ok it was posted in the forums and some of them watch these forums like hawks, so how is that getting special information?

why was this group of antis given special information? how can they be so elevated as to get special insider information? what are the rules on crashing? It sure as hell looks to me, and a lot of us, like [violet] is saying: "sure! here's a tip! there are invaders in the pacific. go stop them!"

btw, -drakma- tell sythla to stay the hell out of new world empire. we're f--- sick of your spies.

They organized an invasion WEEKS ago. This has been brewing a LONG time. [violet] certainly didn't telegram me saying to invade the pacific, so I'm betting s/he didn't telegram anyone about it.

There was a glitch. There was an invasion attempt. It was delayed, then given the go ahead. It failed. It is not going to be replicated.

:roll:

Ladyrebels has a very good point in the post before last. Whenever I talk to new players, I quite often am confronted with the false assumption that all Delegates run their regions like Francos Spain. I try to correct them as they come up, but if what LR says is true, the scope of the damage to the game's image is huge.

"btw, -drakma- tell sythla to stay the hell out of new world empire. we're f--- sick of your spies."

I don't know that nation... It might be a puppet... but I don't know. Sorry.

Again, any evidence about the GLA griefing is awaited to great eagerness! If you're just pissed that we're better defenders then you are raiders, that's acceptable. But please, don't accuse us of cheating.

Also, the tip you speak of wasn't a tip... it was the admin over ruling, and hanging out to dry, Neut. If wasn't some secret tipoff... A Mod said - YOU MUST LEAVE OR I'LL BAN YOU ALL (insert insidious laughter)... and the Admin corrected him (much to my dismay)... It wasn't a tip off.


-Drakma-

Well this well this week alone I have had my telegrams full, all 15 slots from new nations asking how the SP is done, that they were going to quit the game if they found that it is anything like the Pacific, and that was three times this week alone, and to think if only one nation is contacting other delegates then you have to stop and think how many are just throwing up their hands and moving on to different things.

...I am disheartened to know that they would back someone that not one or two nations would like to see removed, but alot of the NS world would not mind seeing removed from the seat of power in a region that starts nations...
I am disheartened when they don't act this way...

The mods are not here to ensure that the popular people get exactly what they want. Their "job" is to enforce the rules, in an unbiased manner.

You guys are looking at this all wrong. Neut tried to do the right thing in principle (ie, "exploiting bugs is essentially cheating and therefore wrong") and you were given a treat when violet stepped in and basically said, "Yeah, Neut's right, but what the hey...let's give these guys a chance...you know, for kicks."

You didn't deserve the chance in the first place, but you got one. If Francos didn't have more friends than you think, he would have lost, and you would all have been celebrating the great wisdom of violet and you wouldn't be invaders any more, so you could go back to saying every anti-invader step taken by the mods is great.

You were given a gift, and you didn't quite pull it out. You should feel lucky you got the gift in the first place.

I guarantee that if you had come out on top, none of you would have been complaining about the confusion leading up the decision.

The situation has been explained, the mods and admin have admitted that things were not handled as smoothly as they could have been, and you were given a shot that you have otherwise not have gotten had there not been a bug.

Also, those bashing Neut for his decision should consider that he was willing to more or less hand the Pacific over to you guys, by creating a day where everyone could move in, Francos could not eject anyone, and also be locked in at a pre-set number of endorsements. This isn't fair either, but it shows that he is not Francos' lap dog.

The point is, many people here are just upset because they didn't win, and are using the confusion surrounding circumstances which they were lucky to see in the first place to bash people out of spite.

the scope of the damage to the game's image is huge.

I mean honestly, are you referring the scintillating debate on the latest UN topic? the suspenseful up or down vote on the UN resolution on some useless topic? the gripping pace of intra-regional discussion? Wtf is the point of this game if not crashing? I mean, after all the endless pleading for wars in nationstates, and the endless denial of this request, this is what nationstates has disintegrated into for me and for many others. as far as im concerned, this game is an illustration of political/diplomatic life in a Hobbesian realpolitik universe. and the reality is, in such an environment, wars and invasions are very much a fact of life. So the mods, by not improving this aspect of this game, have allowed nationstates to disintegrate to this point. that's the sorry truth. and as long as it's still like this, and as long as im still playing it, that's the aspect of the game that I and many others find most engaging

If Francos didn't have more friends than you think, he would have lost, and you would all have been celebrating the great wisdom of violet and you wouldn't be invaders any more, so you could go back to saying every anti-invader step taken by the mods is great.

ha! NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST! it would only have served to make my point stronger that a). the mods have too much interference in nationstates and b). strongly suggest that [violet] was directly involved with "antis" in the sacking of a region

There have been worse incidents. Hell, the game survived going off-line for a week, flaky servers, and removal of several features.

I suspect that the damage to this game's reputation is nowhere near as bad as people here claim it to be. NS has survived far worse with it's name intact. There are still people joining, yes?

the scope of the damage to the game's image is huge.

I mean honestly, are you referring the scintillating debate on the latest UN topic? the suspenseful up or down vote on the UN resolution on some useless topic? the gripping pace of intra-regional discussion? Wtf is the point of this game if not crashing? I mean, after all the endless pleading for wars in nationstates, and the endless denial of this request, this is what nationstates has disintegrated into for me and for many others. as far as im concerned, this game is an illustration of political/diplomatic life in a Hobbesian realpolitik universe. and the reality is, in such an environment, wars and invasions are very much a fact of life. So the mods, by not improving this aspect of this game, have allowed nationstates to disintegrate to this point. that's the sorry truth. and as long as it's still like this, and as long as im still playing it, that's the aspect of the game that I and many others find most engaging

So crashing=good for you, bad for your opponents.

but if not for the order to stand down from a Moderator we would have been celebrating, we were ahead in endoresments, we had the chance to show new nations that not all the Delegates dictate to you that you can not endorse others, that you can not make friends, that you can not speak you mind, and that you can not speak against the choosen form of government.

So yes you are right, it may be viewed as wrong to use a glitch to do something like this but hold on and I will return with the "rules" of the pacific that are posted in the off site forums of Francos Spain then you tell me where it was wrong to make a move like that.

KGB informant, why are you arguing with me? I was one of the earliest region-crashers. I like region-crashing. It makes the game fun, whether you choose to play as an invader or counter-invader. It's an extension of the Machiavellian political wrangling that defines this game. And as long as the players are reasonable, it has little to no long-term negative effects.

The counter-invaders, you see, don't really approve of banning invasion, as much as they strategically check it. Invasions are their livelihood too, they just take part in a different form of invasion.

I have stopped quiet a few invasions myself, but have not once got info from a mod, I just LEGALLY use common sense & I have not cheated once!

If GG & others are getting info, I think it is only fair the mods let me in on it too ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:

While the situation is deplorable and Francos quite an "evil" dictator, exploiting a glitch is not the right way to take him down. If you want him down, do it right, and do it fair. That way there's noone coming back stating that it was unfair.

If you're going to take the region, do it fair and square. Ensure that you are able to keep the region, not just invade and temporarily depose Francos.

...we had the chance to show new nations that not all the Delegates dictate to you that you can not endorse others, that you can not make friends, that you can not speak you mind, and that you can not speak against the choosen form of government.
This is a total non-issue. The point of mods is to enforce rules, not make you and your friends happy. These things you are absorbed with are not relevant to a discussion of how a decision regarding the rules of the game should have been made.

So yes you are right, it may be viewed as wrong to use a glitch to do something like this but hold on and I will return with the "rules" of the pacific that are posted in the off site forums of Francos Spain then you tell me where it was wrong to make a move like that.
Please don't post Francos' rules here, it will only highlight the fact that you don't understand what's going on here.

Francos' policies are not against the rules and whether or not they are popular is not relevant.

KGB informant, why are you arguing with me? I was one of the earliest region-crashers. I like region-crashing. It makes the game fun, whether you choose to play as an invader or counter-invader. It's an extension of the Machiavellian political wrangling that defines this game. And as long as the players are reasonable, it has little to no long-term negative effects.

The counter-invaders, you see, don't really approve of banning invasion, as much as they strategically check it. Invasions are their livelihood too, they just take part in a different form of invasion.

--
no one is denying this. no one. let me note, i started this thread to put the mods on notice, and so far no one has answered any of my questions to my satisfaction. Why the double standard with mods helping antis, mods bending the rules for antis, mods ignoring the rules for antis, and yet coming down hard on crashers? Why dont the same rules apply for antis and crashers rather than as it is now, give antis special breaks for using multis and griefing strategies?

Message
Neutered Sputniks
Senior Game Moderator


Founded: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 5436

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:27 am Post subject:

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While the situation is deplorable and Francos quite an "evil" dictator, exploiting a glitch is not the right way to take him down. If you want him down, do it right, and do it fair. That way there's noone coming back stating that it was unfair.

If you're going to take the region, do it fair and square. Ensure that you are able to keep the region, not just invade and temporarily depose Francos

*************************************************************

Will you stick by this? that is my question. I will not post the rules, but I want to know that if we can and do retake the region, will Francos Spain crying about it being unfair for us to move that many nations in to do so put a stop to us again?

I've been standing by that from day one. So far, there have not been any successful legal attempts. The closest have been the 125 multi attempt, and the exploitation of the glitch.

i think this is inappropriate question for sputniks to answer. what ever happened to "laissez faire"?

Ok then we will do what we can, thank you for trying to help us on the Glitch part II.....

and we will see what happens, and to let you know we had about 80 nations move in on Friday and all of them were baned, they were not Multi's, and they did try.

Thank you Neutered Sputniks for your answer.

i think this is inappropriate question for sputniks to answer. what ever happened to "laissez faire"?

The fact it was a direct question to Neut means that it's inappropriate to answer it?

what ever happened to "laissez faire"?? why should the mods be involved in the affairs of the pacific at all??

ok you think it was inappropriate, but Neutered Sputniks answered it, so if it was inappropriate s/he did not have to answer.

what ever happened to "laissez faire"?? why should the mods be involved in the affairs of the pacific at all??

Perhaps because the Mods still need to run the game? The Pacific is still part of the game if I recall correctly...

forgive me, i think of a mod as a referee, whereas the mods in this game can be active participants!? It's Pete Rose gambling on baseball - it calls into question the fundamental integrity of the game! If the mods can participate and in so doing dictate the outcome of the game, well then, it's no longer a game. it's a bloody sham. and if that's the case, this game is a sham, then i will quit it.

forgive me, i think of a mod as a referee, whereas the mods in this game can be active participants!? It's Pete Rose gambling on baseball - it calls into question the fundamental integrity of the game! If the mods can participate and in so doing dictate the outcome of the game, well then, it's no longer a game. it's a bloody sham. and if that's the case, this game is a sham, then i will quit it.

I daresay that there are quite a few people who won't be sad to see you go. :wink: For the record, the mods do not participate in things like invasions, so we can't be affecting the outcome all that much. We;re just trying to keep people honest.

I don't think the game is a sham, honestly, and the Moderators are only trying to keep it fair for everyone, at least that is how I see it.

After all without the Mods. where would we really be?

[violet] trusts the Mods to run the game impartially, while being players themselves. [violet] makes the assumption that players make better Moderators because they know the issues involved. In the vast, vast, vast majority of cases, this trust has paid dividends - The Mods tend to be highly impartial, quite fair, and have the interests of the game at stake.

That said, occasionally [violet] disagrees with a certain decision, and chooses to reprimand it. That's their right - it's their game, after all. In this matter, a lot of tensions were pretty damn high. There have been mistakes made. It's inevitable - They're only human after all. But then, I've seen no evidence that the Mods have ever used their status to their own gain.

Also, this whole [violet] warning thing... That was actually on the forums, where anyone could read - it's not like she only gave certain players this information. It has been totally transparent, for the most part.

that's tremendous amount of bull. I've posted proof that [violet] was involved in the pacific and in fact no one here can deny it. no one. no one has. and in fact it has been unwraveled that sputniks was even involved. so that makes two mods involved with one invasion. quite a lot of activity don't you think? what exactly is the interest?

As much as you think you are putting me on the defensive, I am winning this argument. No one has been able to prove me wrong about a single word I have said. It is just me here representing some small regions that are unknown to you, or previously unknown. you may not take me seriously even yet. but there are many who agree with me. You are on the defensive, and that is why you have yet to attempt to answer my simple questions.

Here is my final question for you tonight. When will you reform the rules? When will consider reforming the rules?

and, can you please keep me posted? perhaps [violet] can send me a personalized tgram. :P

from cg's place this morning
drakma - you wish. you can't do anything without the support of the f--- mods. and you and the GLA "grief the raiders" every f--- time you kick us into the RR.

5 hours ago The Dictatorship of Crazygirl the pacific invasion is on! move to the pacific, we have 40 minutes!!

5 hours ago The Dictatorship of Crazygirl [violet] said we could!

5 hours ago The Free Land of TigersPaw9 Yes admin had said all can come back in, there will be no more chances, it is now! Corinthe needs at least 15 endorsements in 30 minutes! Now is the time! Please come endorse her....the clock is ticking.
If you want to see Franco walking up to the Rejected Realms with his bags in his hands and his head hung low, go show support now and endorse Corinthe.....
There should be democracy for the Pacific again! We only have 30 minutes to get 15 endorsements for her!

5 hours ago The Democratic Republic of The Internationale Hail comrades, I am new to this region. How is everything?

5 hours ago The Oppressed Peoples of Stradt I come to you fine folks in this time of need. I need to ask you who are currently active and UN nations if you could please go to The Pacific and endorse Corinthe. We need your support now more than ever. You needn't stay there indefinitely... two hours should suffice our cause. Thank you all greatly, and God bless.

Erin go bragh!

And you people confused me with this rank amateur?

Seriously people, think for a moment. I mean, this poseur buckled after a matter of hours! I was able to stir shit for months! I led these fools along and made them froth at the mouth.

Seriously, son, you need to learn how to do this. The Mod Centre? Please. Some regional happenings? Please. Get a clue.

It takes skill and talent to do this right. Go back to pre-school, or at least learn how to be properly condescending.

I, of course, still have plenty of evidence linking recent events to all sorts of things, including (but not limited to) General Forum purges, thewar in Iraq, and the assassination of JFK. Of course, I'll continue to collect and gather. Don't worry, one day I'll post the connections for all to see, and all of NS will demand [violet] and Newt's head!!!

AFAIK, [violet] sent no telegrams. S/he posted a message on the forum, and in the News section, stating that the previous decision had been overturned. It all has been totally transparent. Why do you continue to claim otherwise? This decision is viewable for all to see, if you like I'll send you to the direct message!

You posted that somebody said [violet] approved the action. Big whoop. It was posted to the forums where every invader and their grandmother could have seen it. [violet] can't send people telegrams personally, because [violet] does not have an actual nation. So the only way [violet] could have given anybody information is through the forums, where it is visible to any and all.

Let's say Francos told somebody "Don't worry, Neut said it's okay!". Does that mean Neut actually told Francos that? No. Or say somebody says "OMG! I can hack Nationstates!". Does that mean they can? No. It means they're blowing hot air out their keister.

In case you hadn't noticed, Neut had been in charge of the Pacific situation since it STARTED, well over a month ago. [violet] recently surveyed the situation involving the game glitch, and basically overruled Neut. That isn't the same as dropping somebody a line and saying "Dude! Go for this invasion thing, they're vulnerable!"

You are winning nothing. You are making yourself look increasingly obsessive, despite the counterpoints that have been made.

I hear Violet approved the murder of JFK from a grassy knoll! It's true because I heard it!

I also hear violet approved the creation of sheol, and that he ordered the universe to never allow the player of KGB informants to leave his house again!

IT'S TRUE BECAUSE I HEARD IT!!

I just found out [violet] is my mother. I caught her on Nationstates five minutes ago. Needless to say it was a bit surreal. Anyways, my mom assures me she had no contact with Francos.

Believe me... *ahem* BECAUSE ITS TRUE... AND I HEARD IT!!

okay, i just woke up, so it could be just me, but did someone in the beginning of this thread accuse me of having multis?

crazygirl

He likes to make stuff up based on what the voices in his head tell him. So I wouldn't pay too much attention to him.

okay, thank you ;)

but i think i know what he means, i did mention my puppets yesterday, i have 72 nations at the moment, but only one of them is un..

i saw them talking about it in this region : Council of the Aggressive
remember it now, a friend pointed it out to me, didn't worry much about it.

but of course the mods are welcome to check that out if they want, i've got nothing to hide ;)

Heh, just for the record...

there is damning evidence that reveals that the moderator [violet] has given CGs Place and possibly other antis with information that could have given the antis an unfair advantage in the successful coup. the involvement of [violet] certainly calls into the integrity of the game,
and
let's face it, this invovlement from [violet] seems bizarre, biased and utterly unfair.
and
why was this group of antis given special information?
and
I've posted proof that [violet] was involved in the pacific and in fact no one here can deny it. no one. no one has.
I deny it. I don't even know who CGs Place is. The Pacific invaders got their information from the forum (you can look up my posts yourself, if you like), and possibly from the News item. Nobody received special "inside information."

We had a system glitch that dropped us into unexpected territory, and exposed the Pacific (among other regions) to invasion. For a while there we had contradictory opinions from the mods and I as to whether we should just go with the flow, or attempt to prevent anyone from taking advantage of these circumstances. There were good arguments for both sides, but in the end it was decided that glitches were part of life, and the mods shouldn't prevent an invasion. That's it.

]I deny it. I don't even know who CGs Place is.

sigh...
i think i need another PR agent..

Cgs place is a region, my region..

KGB informant, why are you arguing with me? I was one of the earliest region-crashers. I like region-crashing. It makes the game fun, whether you choose to play as an invader or counter-invader. It's an extension of the Machiavellian political wrangling that defines this game. And as long as the players are reasonable, it has little to no long-term negative effects.

The counter-invaders, you see, don't really approve of banning invasion, as much as they strategically check it. Invasions are their livelihood too, they just take part in a different form of invasion.

--
no one is denying this. no one. let me note, i started this thread to put the mods on notice, and so far no one has answered any of my questions to my satisfaction. Why the double standard with mods helping antis, mods bending the rules for antis, mods ignoring the rules for antis, and yet coming down hard on crashers? Why dont the same rules apply for antis and crashers rather than as it is now, give antis special breaks for using multis and griefing strategies?

Beg your pardon, but if they had HELPED rather than enforced the rules, would not Francos have been deposed?

What are you after? Or is it just popular to complain for the sake of complaining?

i think this is inappropriate question for sputniks to answer. what ever happened to "laissez faire"?

It is asking for a clarification of the rules. That is appropriate.

"Can we hit them with UN Multis on October 7th and have you all look the other way," would be inappropriate to ask, and certainly inappropriate for anyone to answer in the positive -- and I think they'd be selling ice skates in hell before you saw that.

I've posted proof that [violet] was involved in the pacific and in fact no one here can deny it. no one. no one has. and in fact it has been unwraveled that sputniks was even involved. so that makes two mods involved with one invasion.

You've posted proof that Neutered Sputniks delayed the invasion, which quite probably cost the invaders the attempt, and that [violet] said, "Go ahead and try for it."

Yeah, sounds like TONS of involvement. Sounds like they had a secret agenda to depose Francos by clarifying what is and is not in the rules. So secret that anyone who looked could see it. I mean, the genius! Tell people what's going on to keep it all clandestine!

:roll:

Again, what is the problem here? You say crashing is part of the game, that it is pointless without crashing (I disagree, btw) and then you say because they said, "We were wrong to say you can't invade, so try it" that there is some special privilege going on?

Be careful -- if you manage to set the precedent that crashing is illegal, then your game is not going to be the game you want to play anymore.

There exists a double standard among crashers and those who attempt to thrawt crashers, known as defenders or "antis." In the Pacific, there is damning evidence that antis, specifically from CGs Place and the RRA, under the Restraunt of Xcelsior (also known as Greymarshes) have used multis in an attempt to beat Francos.
KGB Informant

This slander should not continue. We work very hard to insure that we do not have UN multis in our ranks. Short of an IP scan on every nation in Nation States it is something I can only say that we do not allow when we become aware of it. Nations have been expelled from the RRA for this infraction. We have no intention of losing a battle due to rule violations. From some of what I have heard of this one (KGB Informant) I would love to hear HIS definition of a multi. My guess is he is quite mistaken in his assertion that we knowingly break rules. I am becoming quite weary of baseless suggestions becoming fact because someone with an axe to grind states it as undeniable truth.

Siggi
RRA High Commander

Be careful -- if you manage to set the precedent that crashing is illegal, then your game is not going to be the game you want to play anymore.

you know what - at least it would be at last a clear expression of what can and can't be done. at least I would know for sure you are all a bunch of cocksuckers.

and RRA - is this another greymarshes clone? - you dont scare me.

you are all a bunch of cocksuckers.


Should you flame again in this thread, or any other, you can quite quickly lose all chance of continuing your accusations of a conspiracy theory.

let me just repeat what I wrote in the neo-sheol thread. I'm only a small non-un nation in a small region and look at all of this effort to shut me up! There is no question that things occurred in the pacific that seriously question the integrity of the game. But I'm realistic. I honestly don't expect anyone to admit this publicly. You have self-interests to protect that motivate you to deny everything. Instead of rehashing this debate, why not take much of my criticisms constructively, perhaps get back to me on my many questions, and perhaps they can improve this game.

and RRA - is this another greymarshes clone? - you dont scare me.

Perhaps you missed my point, what is YOUR defenition of a multi and more to the point please produce the proof of such a thing. I happen to know I am NOT Greymarshes and welcome any and all methods the Moderators wish to prove the fact. Now how about your proof!

Siggi "not Greymarshes"

let me just repeat what I wrote in the neo-sheol thread. I'm only a small non-un nation in a small region and look at all of this effort to shut me up!
They are just proving how your claims are unsupported by real facts :P

let me just repeat what I wrote in the neo-sheol thread. I'm only a small non-un nation in a small region and look at all of this effort to shut me up! There is no question that things occurred in the pacific that seriously question the integrity of the game. But I'm realistic. I honestly don't expect anyone to admit this publicly. You have self-interests to protect that motivate you to deny everything. Instead of rehashing this debate, why not take much of my criticisms constructively, perhaps get back to me on my many questions, and perhaps they can improve this game.

Sheol? That you? God, it sounds just like you. Either that or one of the neo-nazis claiming that the Holocaust never happened...either way it's a last-ditch defense...

I bet they didnt even run multi scans on Francos' endorsers last night!!

yes they did. i remember at least one francos supporter getting the boot. nice to see that the triumpherate aren't all the same person... (many of us thought they were) i remember seeing one of the opposing side get taken down along with the idiots on ours who used multis.

I bet they didnt even run multi scans on Francos' endorsers last night!!

yes they did. i remember at least one francos supporter getting the boot. nice to see that the triumpherate aren't all the same person... (many of us thought they were) i remember seeing one of the opposing side get taken down along with the idiots on ours who used multis.

I was the withness. Only one of Francos's endorsees get canned for multying, and about 10 of mine. I got an official warning for spamming. It was an ugly battle indeed, and Salusa did the right thing. I was tired at that moment. I didn't even notice that I was repeating the same message over and over again. I just pushed that button, while I was trying to keep my eyes open :P At least nobody can say that I got where I was, because of the many multies.

-=Corinthe=-

I bet they didnt even run multi scans on Francos' endorsers last night!!

yes they did. i remember at least one francos supporter getting the boot. nice to see that the triumpherate aren't all the same person... (many of us thought they were) i remember seeing one of the opposing side get taken down along with the idiots on ours who used multis.

The MODS did run multi scans this weekend and yes I have proof that they did, I am not from the pacific but I gotta tell you guys something

THIS IS JUST A GAME, LET IT GO ALREADY!

yeah. should spend today looking at the record the cold highlands managed to make of the night's proceedings.

God, it sounds just like you.

Maybe that's because anyone who notices some major flaws and speaks up gets the bums rush. So maybe, all of us who play this game and speak up about these problems are beginning to look exactly the same to you. I swear, I know not the 'sheol' I am far less interested in this game than to pretend to be one I am not :roll:

btw, have you seen grivinis' responses to the pacific in the other thread, and have you noted the similarities between my statements and his, if not in substance than in principle? Have you threatened him with excommunication as well? Could this be yet another double standard!?

- wont back down - 8)

God, it sounds just like you.

Maybe that's because anyone who notices some major flaws and speaks up gets the bums rush. So maybe, all of us who play this game and speak up about these problems are beginning to look exactly the same to you. I swear, I know not the 'sheol' I am far less interested in this game than to pretend to be one I am not :roll:

btw, have you seen grivinis' responses to the pacific in the other thread, and have you noted the similarities between my statements and his, if not in substance than in principle? Have you threatened him with excommunication as well? Could this be yet another double standard!?

- wont back down - 8)

I am still waiting for you to prove that your accusations against me and my organization are more than just hot air. Since you seem to have no problem posting, maybe you could post this proof.

no, but i've asked him for cold, hard evidence as well. along with neut....

]why was this group of antis given special information?
and
I've posted proof that [violet] was involved in the pacific and in fact no one here can deny it. no one. no one has.
I deny it. I don't even know who CGs Place is. The Pacific invaders got their information from the forum (you can look up my posts yourself, if you like), and possibly from the News item. Nobody received special "inside information."


Hehe, I was just minding my own business, when I tripped over a thread made by Francos. He was whining about his lost delegacy. A sec later I was in The Pacific. There was no "inside information". We all got the information from francos himself 8)

-=Corinthe=-

- wont back down - 8)
You think you choose martyrdom, then? Very well, only people will care a lot less than you think.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

*wonders how an admin who doesn't owe anything to the forum goers, can really betray anything*

Yawn.. care about who?
:)

-Drakma-

Still waiting from proof the GLA cheats or griefs. I'll assume, since it's been 4 pages of text, you have no real proof.. only accusations?

I think you should re-read Kandarins thoughts on Anti's. We follow the same rules as raiders, we just have different exit strategies. We boot the invaders (which is legal since you're not natives) and then bug out. We don't spam the regional boards, and we don't kick out anyone except your kind.

So we raid and throw you out. You raid and throw everyone out.

-Drakma-

My God! Its all so clear now, how could I have not noticed. Its all so simple.
The mods are brainwashed by the admin into blindly doing there every whim. In turn, the Admin are in alliance with the Zarg, evil aliens from the planet Zim Zim 5 (Who are also in alliance with the jews according to leading Nazis).

Together they have infiltrated all the governments and put floride.exe on the internet to control our minds with subliminal messaging in the forums. From their lair deep within the hollow center of the earth. (Under the U.N. building), they plot and plan the eventual overthrow of F City.

Their wicked genetically modified offspring are responsible for all that is evil, and spam as well.

We must unite and fight them, least they succeed in implanting tracking devices in everyones skulls, and trying to enfore netiquette.

My God! Its all so clear now, how could I have not noticed. Its all so simple.
The mods are brainwashed by the admin into blindly doing there every whim. In turn, the Admin are in alliance with the Zarg, evil aliens from the planet Zim Zim 5 (Who are also in alliance with the jews according to leading Nazis).

Together they have infiltrated all the governments and put floride.exe on the internet to control our minds with subliminal messaging in the forums. From their lair deep within the hollow center of the earth. (Under the U.N. building), they plot and plan the eventual overthrow of F City.

Their wicked genetically modified offspring are responsible for all that is evil, and spam as well.

We must unite and fight them, least they succeed in implanting tracking devices in everyones skulls, and trying to enfore netiquette.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The GLA awaits any evidence that they have done anything that is against any rule...
As I thought, There is no eveidence because it does not exist.
We receive no help from anyone except each other. We do not multi, ask for a multi check yourself next time if you like. The only thing you are upset about is visiting Kandarin so often. Actually it is a rather hospitable place and you should feel right at home. Noone gives us tips on anything, all intel is homegrown. So if you cannot produce proof, which I know you cannot as it is all BS and not true either, I would ask for your flaming butt to apologize. (yeah right)
The GLA lost one once and I ened up visiting Kandarin, it was a badge of honor that occurs when you fight and lose.
Griefing and Multiing are illegal and we will continue to fight against these unfair practices so often employed by crashers. Other than that there is no connection between the "Antis" as you call us and the Mods/Admin.

I suggest you focus on improving your tactics as this would be more beneficial to you and more exciting for us. You are wasting your time on this line of "reasoning"

Hey Griv & -Drak-, let 'em whine. They must be tired and frustrated from getting their butts kicked so many times by us, without even knowing what hit them and how, and then realizing it was all done in the most legal way. 8)

What I'd really like to know is on what grounds you managed to get some of our allies to lose UN status a while back. All I heard was "grieving" and "cheating", but I didn't see any of it.

Oh, enough already! Sheesh!

Stephanie
Forum Mod