NationStates Jolt Archive

the people listened to the MODS and got screwed. I can no longer listen to anything they say without thinking, "Hmmm... how long until someone above them overturns their decisions?"

So any thing they say is tainted and worthless. Unless [violet] says it, it's not worth crap.

If Francos in the Pacific gave anyone a fair chance at the delegate position then taking advantage of a glitch wouldn't be important or required.

The Mods said things would be restored to the way they were before they stepped in and then they reneged.

They changed the story three times.
There is no way I can see paying for NS2 if this is how it will be run.

I agree.

The mods have made sure I WILL NEVER PAY to play this game. EVER!

The MODS can't be trusted... as a collective. They can say all they want about Neut being honest in his intentions... but I can not belive them. Two days ago, I could have. But today I can not.

I will not pay to play this game.

Sorry Max.. No money for you. Thank Neut and your other Mods.

-Drakma-

Well, don't play NS2 then but I don't see why you had to share this with us.

Please, quit flaming and spamming. Neither will be tolerated in this forum.

I'm sure Max will miss all the money you guys never spent.

"Flaming"? "Spamming"? They both make perfectly good points. If I were involved in a similar catastrophe that they were involved in I'd be doing much much worse then this posting a legitamate concern.

Just because someone is a mod doesn't make them god. I've played many, many, many online RPGs before and by the general feel I get from the players of NS, they have no idea what the "real" world of online gaming is like (which I don't mean in a bad way whatsoever, this is the only place where people actually RP). I have encountered many power-tripping GMs who genuinely thought they were god and everyone else should worship them because they had a spunky little robe or a shiny title under their name or what-have-you. Hell I was an Imm on a mud once when I was younger so I even know what it's like to have to deal with people and what it's like to power-trip and not realize it.

There are limitations however. I don't know the WHOLE story of what happened in The Pacific, but I do know more then enough to make a fair judgement. Any bug in the game or system, which was used to depose a so called "rightful" delegate of a region is MORE then legal if that delegate is breaking basic rules of fairness I.E. getting rid of any opposition. Any interferance from the mods on this would be not only be foolish, it would be counter-productive to their jobs. Yeah, before I get some sort of snide answer by any of the people involved I AM telling you what your job as a mod. I've known many, I was one, I know what they need to do, and making sure the game is level and fair for all is their chief job. Francos Spain should have been removed by a mod in the FIRST place without the need of glitches getting involved because he is RUINING THE GAME FOR MANY PEOPLE.

This is after all, a GAME! This is SUPPOSED to be fair, why else are we allowed only 1 UN nation? If people are standing up and saying "I'm not going to pay for this nonsense" then this is NOT FLAMING, it's a damn good statement! WHY SHOULD THEY! This kind of unfairness to the community is a damn fine example as to WHY people SHOULDN'T pay for this game.

It goes beyond the logistics of server fees and paying for people to constantly provide new support and content and gets to the heart of things, if those designed to keep the game working for the good of all are corrupt and refuse to do their jobs or worse lie and change their minds without good reason, and I mean REALLY good reason which I don't see in this case, then paying would be an act of insanity!

This whole thing reminds me of the days in UO where GMs would purposely spawn things to kill innocent players over and over again and refuse to help anyone...it makes me sick.

modalert :arrow: Moderation

So we got lied to again, I am shocked, not.......why did I listen? oh ya because I thought that the Moderators were the people to listen to, but no, now I see that we get the wrong end of the stick again, FS is allowed, even wanted by the Mods to control the Pacific, thanks for letting us know about it.

Be Fair, that is what I heard, it was not fair to do that to FS, take adavantage of the glitch, then it was if the Moderators found it to be fair that things would be recreated......now that is a no show, that is now gone from us again?

Why in the hades did you step in then? why did you not let us do what people wanted done? can you not see the full scope of things?

In 16 hours there were enough people, not on the dang ban list of his, moved there and winning, we had him, we had the endorsments, we had the power to remove him.

Then the Moderators step in and say, this is not fair, no what is not fair to everyone is the fact that FS will ban them for no other reason than saying something against his rule.

Go to his web site and see what he says there, see what he has on his site about being the Emperor of the Region, see that he has rules in there that make the game hell on other players.

15 endorsements, that is all it takes to get baned in his region, where is that fair, if any other delegate baned as many as he does daily!!!! not only would we be removed but we most likely be baned from the UN, why not him?

I don't know what to do anymore.....it is disheartening that FS has support that none of the rest of us do.

What was being done was not by members of the Pacific. What was being done, the popular vote, was popular vote coming from outside the region. How can you sit there and say that this is what the people of the Pacific wanted when if only people from the Pacific were endorsing Corinthe, she'd never have been that close to beating Francos?

Remember my first request? Simply that those not from The Pacific (actually intending to reside there) remove their endorsements from Corinthe.

The fact of the matter is that many of these nations were FROM the pacific in the first place, and were ejected by him. Does this not make it fair?
We've been told time and time again that we can take the delegacy away from Francos by means inside the rules of the game.
We are told our actions are allowed. Then, when we are only hours away from victory, we are told we are not allowed. And then, we are told they ARE allowed again! But by this time there is no chance to do anything. And once again, Francos is in a position in which it is extraordinarily difficult to remove him from.

The Pacific regions have the unique quality of being the original region for every nation in NS, so therefore there really are no outsiders in this matter. The Pacific reigions are the heart of the NS community because they are the only thing everyone has in common, so any actions that include "outsiders" isn't such a crime.

Besides, at the absolute worst wouldn't this just be a case of region crashing? That is legal as far as I can tell.

To settle the issue, if it's possible, it might be best to reset all endorsements of the region and let a completely fresh "election" take place. That would weed out the newbies who toss around endorsements haphazardly and everyone who are most likely the supporters of Francos Spain to start with.

While I agree with what has been written here, it's not on topic.

Why would I pay for a system where the Mods can act with impunity? If I'm now paying - I want more for my money. I don't want to have to complain to the WALL that is the mods when one of them makes a bad call.

On a free site, fine.. on a pay site - NO F'ing way. I will not pay for this kind of service. Sorry. I will encourage others not to pay for this kind of service for as long as the service providers fail to see our point.

What happened in the Pacific was an abortion of justice. The Mods, who run the site, told us one thing and did another. I don't care that YOU TRIED to do the right thing. You, as a Mod are an agent of this site. Your words are binding.

If you want to continue this level of service, I expect you to put a warning on the pay site that reads: WARNING... THE MODS DO NOT HAVE TO DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL. THEIR INTENTIONS ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR US. THEY CAN MAKE STATEMENTS THEY CAN'T BACK UP WITH COMPLETE IMPUNITY. Then you are legally covered.

And to answer Anadolu, yes... Max is going to miss the money we never spent. It's call opportunity cost. If he's a business man, and I think he is (this site is excellent PR for the book) then he will absolutely miss the money I deny him because the MODS have pissed me off.

If you want this site to become a pay for play site, you had better start acting like we are clients and not just some jerk with an internet connection.


As for Neut repeated point on why the people in the Pacific don't unendorsed him? WHO CARES? There are 150 people who want him and 400 who don't. IF he couldn't ban EVERYONE with not a peep from the Mods, he'd be out on his ear... and the new delegate would obtain the std Pacific endorsement level of 400+. The fact that he can only keep 150- endorsements in a Pacific is proof he's unliked by the majority.

And remember, if the majority dislikes your calls, and max thinks he'll lose business... You days as a Mod are numbered. Unless you Max's buddy... money will conquer friendship.

If this is to be a business.. it should act like it. Accountability must be seamless and transparent. If Neut screws up, and he loses clients because of his screw up... their has to be action... not the upper guys circle the wagons and declare it’s "Neut Day - the HERO". We all agree with everything he’s done… even though he admits he screwed the pooch!

IF this is a business, it should act like one. :evil:

-Drakma-

Shouldn't this post go in the Moderation Forum? The topic seems to be about some sort of disagreement that went on in the Pacific Region not about Nationstates 2.

Surely this should be moved to moderation, Neut?! This has compleely gone off topic, I mean even you are talking about the Pacific.

The MODS can't be trusted... as a collective. They can say all they want about Neut being honest in his intentions... but I can not belive them. Two days ago, I could have. But today I can not.

I will not pay to play this game.

Sorry Max.. No money for you. Thank Neut and your other Mods.

-Drakma-

I leave for the weekend to attend a wedding, and suddenly I'm not trusted anymore?

Gee... that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there...

i dont think we should have to pay to play, they should keep both running so u can have a good one for free or a very good one for money how about it?

i dont think we should have to pay to play, they should keep both running so u can have a good one for free or a very good one for money how about it?

Well, how would Max finance this? He isn't Bill Gates you know.

Life's a bitch kid. Deal with it. If you don't like it, leave and let us that do enjoy this game, play it in peace. Understood?

-Pants

Life's a bitch kid. Deal with it. If you don't like it, leave and let us that do enjoy this game, play it in peace. Understood?

-Pants

My point exactly! :P

They are going to have both :P

They are going to have both :P

What do you mean?

modalert :arrow: Moderation

The MODS can't be trusted... as a collective. They can say all they want about Neut being honest in his intentions... but I can not belive them. Two days ago, I could have. But today I can not.

I will not pay to play this game.

Sorry Max.. No money for you. Thank Neut and your other Mods.

-Drakma-

I leave for the weekend to attend a wedding, and suddenly I'm not trusted anymore?

Gee... that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there...

Sorry Hack, but after what I have seen for the last two days, you are all suspect...

I have seen posts by mods deleted to cover their butts.
I have seen revisionist history in the making - even by non game mods.
I have seen mods insult players to try and het them to give up on the issues they have with the handling of the pacific.

The worst offense though is the revionist history lesson in progress and then arrogance some mods have towards the players because the mods are 'insiders.'

One mods went so far as to say, "We don't have to explain anything to you." They later said something about they tell us because they are fair... but they only tell us the stuff they want us to hear to get us to drop the grudge against the error they made.


***
That being said, is should not be in moderation because it deals with money.

I want to know what mods powers will be altered to if I'm going to pay to play? As they are now, I find the mods lack of accountability to the players in any shape or form unreconcilable with the idea of paying to play.

While this game is free, that's fine. I don't have to like it, but it's free. If I'm paying to play, I'm not longer some shlep the mods can bully and speak down to.. I am now a client. And my happyness effects MAx's bottom line. If I'm happy and tell all my friends to play, Max can make money. If I get pissed and feel the mods screwed me, I will tell my friends not to play.

I am wondering if the mods have considered the changes in their powers or in the greater accountability that will be required of them if NS2 is a pay to play?

For example. After the pacific blunder... I bet 100 nations would kill their pay accounts. That translates instantly into a money loss to the company as a direct result of Mods error. What will MAX do if be loses 100 player because of a Pacific type bungle?

This is what this topic is about. Now, I admit it comes from anger over a topic in moderation, but the issue is about paying to play a game where the mods don't have very strict rules and can 'harm' a client.

I am wondering if the mods have considered the effects on them if NS2 is pay to play, or if any changes in power or responsibility have been proposed?

-Drakma-

Again, sorry Hack for the wide brush, but almost all the mods from tech to forum to game have circled the wagons and it's kind of frustrating.

Take this discussion out of this forum. You're already discussing the same issue in 2-3 other threads elsewhere, there is no need to clutter this forum with your whining that you didnt get your way.

again with the whining? Is the mod vocab list restricted to calling people who disagree with them whiners? Sheesh.


You don't think this is a reasonable question?

It does deal with money, and the effect money might have on the game.

-Drakma-

P.S. You answered that awefully quick Neut... you following the people who were critical of your error so they can't post more then one thing before you jump down their throat?

Hm...lots of stuff to deal with here...let's see where to start...

First of all we have to understand that everyone involved here is only human. The mods did make a horrible decision and were called on it. From what I gather the majority of players here are pretty annoyed at this and no amount of spin doctoring will save the mods from losing face, which they already have.

Those who ARE supporting the mods seem to be the kind of people who would be perfectly ok following orders and goose-stepping around nazi germany and supporting segregation not because they agree with it, but simply because it's status quo. Something is wrong here and instead of sticking your head out and saying "yeah this isn't right" you go on telling people to suck up the injustice. I find this cowardly. Just because you don't want to make things better don't go belittling other people's outrage as insignificant.

I also can't see the use of condemning a mod who was on vacation when this happened. Not ALL mods are horrible evil people and you can't make such over-reaching statements. I can understand viewing mods with suspicion, as all people with any authority should be viewed with suspicion simply to keep them honest, but you can't just stamp them as criminals because they share the same position.

And I might be overstepping my boundries here just a little bit, but I'll do it anyway. I'll try to state this as nicely as I can because I don't really know the mods here very well, although I tend to be a good judge of people within a reading very little of what they say. With that said, Neut, I don't know you and haven't dealt with you here, so I might be wrong with what I'm goign to say but understand that this is how you are coming off under the context of what you are saying, and I'm sorry to say that you seem to have a bit of problem with criticism on this matter. People disagree with you and don't trust you because they have good reason to. I dunno where you live, but I think most of us live in democratic countries where this "whining" tends to be the chief source of progress within the nation. You are hiding behind your mod status and aren't answering many of the points being raised here.

And yeah the NS2 forum is such a jumping hotbed of discussion that this thread is REALLY clogging up the whole system. Maybe it takes 3 threads in varies places to deal with this. This seems to be a pretty big scandal here that requires discussion that can't be contained in one single thread.

And this DOES belong here, everyone because the underlaying point to all of this is that if NS2 is going to be pay, then we need to have better mod/player relations then THIS. Mods need to learn what the world of pay online gaming is about and how THEY work for US once WE start to pay for the game. This isn't the case here since this is free. But it's just common sense that this kind of relationship should be fostered NOW. Let's face it, the entire NS2 community is here. This won't sell to the hardcore gamer crowd out there, any love lost between the players and the moderators here WILL have a severe impact on the success of NS2. This thing is going to end up like Gemstone 3 and other mud-gone-pay games, it's going to be played by a few thousand rabid fans who support the entire system and the loss of a few hundred would have a noticable negative effect. If NS2 doesn't have enough people to play and support it, then it will just crash around itself.

Sorry Hack, but after what I have seen for the last two days, you are all suspect...

During which I was gone. However, let's move on, as that's something of a non-issue anyway.

I have seen posts by mods deleted to cover their butts.

Not exactly. You've managed to forget a few key bits of information there. First of all (assuming we're thinking of the same incident), the mod in question was new. Something like a day-and-a-half on the job. At that point, mistakes are expected. Both Neut and I, for example, were a little over-eager with the lock button when we were first modded.

Furthermore, the mod in question thought they were acting in a proper manner. The error of that activity was pointed out, and life went on. Such an event hasn't happened again, I might note.

I have seen revisionist history in the making - even by non game mods.

Hm. This would be my personal "whining", if you catch my drift. I've seen this accusation bandied about quite a bit, and I'm not sure what you're referencing. From what I've been able to see this is what happened:
A game error caused several regions to have their Delegate loose power, but not endorcements.
The mods took a non-involvement position.
After further discussion, the mods online at the time decided to intercede.
While this was going on, miscommunications between the admin and the mods caused the admin to repeat the theory of non-involvement.
People complained that they couldn't exploit a game error.
The admin realised what happened and issued a non-fault apology.
People continued to complain.
This is what I've figured out reading threads in Tech and Moderation. What's being revised? I hope you have more than vapors and aether, unlike KGB Informants or Sheol.

I have seen mods insult players to try and het them to give up on the issues they have with the handling of the pacific.

This old horse again? As stated before, when the mods are forced to repeat themselves over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, they tend to get frustrated, and, as humans, are likely to get a little snippy when they answer the same question/complaint/charge for the 20th time. Go back and re-read. You can see how the responces by the mods morphed over time. We didn't start off hostile, we were prodded to it.

In other words, if you keep poking a dog with a stick, it's gonna eventually bite.

The worst offense though is the revionist history lesson in progress and then arrogance some mods have towards the players because the mods are 'insiders.'

Again, evidence?

One mods went so far as to say, "We don't have to explain anything to you."

Technically, we don't.

They later said something about they tell us because they are fair... but they only tell us the stuff they want us to hear to get us to drop the grudge against the error they made.

Hrm. Heafty dose of paranoia there.

That being said, is should not be in moderation because it deals with money.

Loosely. It also deals with your determination to lambaste the mods.

I want to know what mods powers will be altered to if I'm going to pay to play?

No idea, actually. I would assume things would be similar to other pay-game sites. I don't play Everquest, but how do they handle such things? I seem to recall that most such games give their Moderators, Avatars, Wizards, whatever similar powers. If I had to guess, (Disclaimer (as people often take my guesses as gospel): This is only a guess, it is not the official policy) I would say that moderators in NS2 would have very similar powers (adjusted for the needs of a much more intricate game), the biggest change, I guess, would be a more involved system of appeal.

As they are now, I find the mods lack of accountability to the players in any shape or form unreconcilable with the idea of paying to play.

admin@nationstates.net

While this game is free, that's fine. I don't have to like it, but it's free. If I'm paying to play, I'm not longer some shlep the mods can bully and speak down to.. I am now a client. And my happyness effects MAx's bottom line. If I'm happy and tell all my friends to play, Max can make money. If I get pissed and feel the mods screwed me, I will tell my friends not to play.

Yeah, pretty much.

I am wondering if the mods have considered the changes in their powers or in the greater accountability that will be required of them if NS2 is a pay to play?

You're running on the assumption that all the NS mods will transfer over to NS2. Personally, I think it would be a huge amount of work to try and moderate two games. Lord knows there's enough required just to watch over one.

For example. After the pacific blunder... I bet 100 nations would kill their pay accounts. That translates instantly into a money loss to the company as a direct result of Mods error. What will MAX do if be loses 100 player because of a Pacific type bungle?

Pay out less in bandwidth? Furthermore the size of NS2 will be much reduced. A Pacific-type region might have 100 people, total.

This is what this topic is about. Now, I admit it comes from anger over a topic in moderation, but the issue is about paying to play a game where the mods don't have very strict rules and can 'harm' a client.

Again, you're taking some pretty big assumptions there. Why do you assume that the SOP for a pay game will be the same as a free game?

I am wondering if the mods have considered the effects on them if NS2 is pay to play, or if any changes in power or responsibility have been proposed?

I can't speak for the others, but I've had far more important things to worry about than the possible effects on my power for a game that probably has even been coded yet.

Again, sorry Hack for the wide brush, but almost all the mods from tech to forum to game have circled the wagons and it's kind of frustrating.

I've found more use for the quote on this game than I ever thought I would...

"Perhaps it's not them, it's you."

Thanks for the indepth answer. If this kind of answer was given on Sunday night/Monday morning... alot of this crap wouldn't have happened.

I could try to - line by line - either refute or expand our arguments made... but let's face it... it would be one whopper of a post; I also don't think it would matter any more... The mods have their minds set and so do the players.


But for the record:

most people aren't complaining because they couldn't take advantage of a game flaw. That a nice was for you make us look bad, but the fact is most people are complaining about the flip flop in decision making.

If Neut had said, 'this is not fair - go home' and that was the end of it, people would be mad, but it would have been the only show in town. Besides, people would be sheepish to argue they demand to take advantage of a glich. When it came back reversed, with an hour to go and no one online, people got upset. It's the flip flop that makes people angry.


Also, I am not posting here in an effort to further lambast the mods. That's like shouting at a hurricane. What I am trying to do is offer my thoughts on the way the rules might have be changed if people decide to pay to play. I used the example of the Pacific incident because it made alot of potential clients angry... and if these people decided to quit it would hurt the business model. Honestly, after 2 days - it's over. Neuts a fine guy. He made a judgement call... it was right/wrong.. wahtever. I'm over it.

As for the revionist stuff... do you really want to go through and find all the bits and pieces of what was told to us in the first 12 hours and then compare them the complete story we are getting now? I can (if the posts weren't deleted), but it's pointless. I would bet that most of the people who feel they were wronged agree that the story has changed. I admit, with more information comes alterations in the series of events. In this case the revionism might be due to added intel on behalf of the mods, but as the bad guy I will have be dismissive.

As for the techincal rule about information. I agree... technically you don't have to tell us anything... but you should want us to know what going on. Full disclosure halts calls of impropriety and cover up. Without it, you ask for people to make wide net specualtion. Also, not knowing makes people want to figure things out. So, we keep asking more pointed questions.

And yes, I know when people ask the same question over and over the mods get testy... I am human too... but if the original answer is lame or incomplete it will not satisfy our 'need' to know. So we ask again in a different manner. Even when we say, 'That answer is insufficient,' the mod doesn't try to help us out, they get nasty. And out comes the, "we don't have to tell you anything," Which may be technically true, but it's awefully sh!tty. I know Neut must be angry with the player, I was particularly critical of his call, but he never answered the hard questions. Either by design or by order, he held back (which lead to people getting more angry and writing more vitrioloic critisisms).

Any way....

I didn't realize the scope of NS2 was as small as you claim is will be. I thought the polls indicated huge support and many nations.

Also, I think the topic of alterations in the mods power in a pay to play game is an important topic. I assume players will expect more if they are paying, and will need more/better customer service if they are truly clients and not just free riders.

I think this is a worthy topic.

I meant they will have both NationStates and NationStates2 running, or so ive heard...

I meant they will have both NationStates and NationStates2 running, or so ive heard...

Indeed they will.

It's the flip flop that makes people angry.

For which [violet] has left a mea culpa.

As for the revionist stuff... do you really want to go through and find all the bits and pieces of what was told to us in the first 12 hours and then compare them the complete story we are getting now? I can (if the posts weren't deleted), but it's pointless. I would bet that most of the people who feel they were wronged agree that the story has changed.

Well, again, this is something I've seen no evidence of. The first I heard of anything happening was when I saw Corinthe's going away thread. I don't see any revisionism going on at all. And, if nobody's willing to offer any evidence, there's not much more to talk about, I fear.

As for the techincal rule about information. I agree... technically you don't have to tell us anything... but you should want us to know what going on. Full disclosure halts calls of impropriety and cover up. Without it, you ask for people to make wide net specualtion. Also, not knowing makes people want to figure things out. So, we keep asking more pointed questions.

And, oddly enough, certain nations think that we're far too open in how we do things. I feel (and felt this way before being a mod too) that there is a high degree of transparency in how moderation is handled on this site.

And yes, I know when people ask the same question over and over the mods get testy... I am human too... but if the original answer is lame or incomplete it will not satisfy our 'need' to know. So we ask again in a different manner.

Oftentimes, the 'different manner' isn't really different at all. Same question, slightly modified syntax, hence, the same answer.

I didn't realize the scope of NS2 was as small as you claim is will be. I thought the polls indicated huge support and many nations.

Well, that's from what I've seen. Granted, I don't follow this particular forum all that much. Things could have changed, but last I read (ie: months ago) the assumption was that NS2 would be much smaller, largely because of A) pay-for-play; B) credit card requirements; C) the fact that puppets aren't too likely.

Wow MGH, keep it up, you have just put the mods up in great asteem in my books.

They can say all they want about Neut being honest in his intentions... but I can not belive them.


Whether you agree with it or not, Neutered Sputiks is an honest and law abiding moderator. Whether you agree with the desicisions made by him or any other moderator or not. The moderators are here to enforce the laws, not be your friend. Job comes first.

Sorry Max.. no money for you. Thank Neut and your other Mods.
-Drakma-

I doubt seriously that max will mind.

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame75.html

After reviewing this topic, it clearly is overdue for a move to the Moderation section...

the people listened to the MODS and got screwed. I can no longer listen to anything they say without thinking, "Hmmm... how long until someone above them overturns their decisions?"

So any thing they say is tainted and worthless. Unless [violet] says it, it's not worth crap.

If Francos in the Pacific gave anyone a fair chance at the delegate position then taking advantage of a glitch wouldn't be important or required.

The Mods said things would be restored to the way they were before they stepped in and then they reneged.

They changed the story three times.
There is no way I can see paying for NS2 if this is how it will be run.

Again? This issue really needs a new thread? It seems utterly unreasonable for you not to understand that there might be confusion on how to deal with a game glitch. Again, when there is a glitch in the future and you were to lose power in your region, I am sure you will complain that others were able to take advatage of it.

There was confusion. You honestly thinmk the mods want FS in power? Did you even look at Corinthe's endorsement list? I would say you did not, as there was at least one mod in there giviing her support.

If you can't get over the issue, and I don't see why you can't (but that's fine, there are things I didn't get overt as soon as others wanted me to I am sure)- but if you can't get over it, do we really need new threads about this issue? Why not use the old ones...

There was confusion. You honestly thinmk the mods want FS in power? Did you even look at Corinthe's endorsement list? I would say you did not, as there was at least one mod in there giviing her support.


There were two mods, I think :lol:

My anti Francos forum is at: http://s2.invisionfree.com/The_Pacific/

A good place talk about this issue. No spies allowed :wink:

-=Corinthe=-

First of all we have to understand that everyone involved here is only human. The mods did make a horrible decision and were called on it. From what I gather the majority of players here are pretty annoyed at this and no amount of spin doctoring will save the mods from losing face, which they already have.

Not really... Neut made a decision which looked fair from his standpoint. [Violet] overruled him, as an admin is able to and that was that. There was no "horrible decision"... Neut made a good call: Franco was only open to attack because of a game error, it was a bit unfair to let it be open-season on him because of something that shouldn't have happened.

Nobody is trying to spin-doctor. People are trying to explain why it happened... and why it wasn't the end of the world as we know it.

Those who ARE supporting the mods seem to be the kind of people who would be perfectly ok following orders and goose-stepping around nazi germany and supporting segregation not because they agree with it, but simply because it's status quo. Something is wrong here and instead of sticking your head out and saying "yeah this isn't right" you go on telling people to suck up the injustice. I find this cowardly. Just because you don't want to make things better don't go belittling other people's outrage as insignificant.

So I'm a nazi because I support the moderators. How nice of you to condemn us all for one little thing. See your next paragraph about generalisations.
You seem to be dismissing people's opinions because they are in favour of the status quo... which is tantamount to dismissing people's opinions because they disagree with you on this issue. Thats not very open-minded. I undderstand why you are upset, but I can't see why you believe that this is worth open warfare... and frankly, I really don't see a single action in an extreme circumstance as being a demonstration of an evil and malicious conspiracy of mod-dom.
Don't get me wrong... there are mods I dislike, there are mod decisions that seem wrong to me and there sections of this site that I don't agree with. But I deal with it... and I deal with it mostly by A) sticking to the rules and B) staying out of the General Forum.
I hope that I can say that nobody is belittling your opinion... its just that we don't share it and want to explain why. Its not cowardice: it is a different opinion... and your going to have to deal with those.

I'll try to state this as nicely as I can because I don't really know the mods here very well, although I tend to be a good judge of people within a reading very little of what they say. With that said, Neut, I don't know you and haven't dealt with you here, so I might be wrong with what I'm goign to say but understand that this is how you are coming off under the context of what you are saying, and I'm sorry to say that you seem to have a bit of problem with criticism on this matter. People disagree with you and don't trust you because they have good reason to. I dunno where you live, but I think most of us live in democratic countries where this "whining" tends to be the chief source of progress within the nation. You are hiding behind your mod status and aren't answering many of the points being raised here.

The problem comes when he is trying to explain things from his side... people ignore it because they 'don't trust him'. He speaks up, says he made a call and it was overruled... he explains why and nobody listens: people keep on and on as if he hadn't opened his mouth: except that they now claim he is revising history and part of an evil conspiracy! Whining is not a problem. Refusing to listen to what is said is: and when that is done in a whining manner... it gets less tolerable.
Complaining can be done constructively... that is where progress comes from. 'Whining' is just hot air without any solution... resenting an 'injustice' without comprehension and knowledge of a better plan.

And this DOES belong here, everyone because the underlaying point to all of this is that if NS2 is going to be pay, then we need to have better mod/player relations than THIS.

Mod/player relations are within acceptable bounds here... but then I am an evil Nazi Coward, by your description.

Mods need to learn what the world of pay online gaming is about and how THEY work for US once WE start to pay for the game. This isn't the case here since this is free. But it's just common sense that this kind of relationship should be fostered NOW. Let's face it, the entire NS2 community is here.

If by here you mean on Nationstates, then yes. If you mean here as in on this thread complaining about the mods... then no. Most people on NationStates don't care about the pacific(s)... most people never come within a mile of a mod ruling. Most people don't have to... I think you ought to ask yourself why you have found yourself on the recieving end.

Appologies for the ranty-type opinion, but being called a nazi coward because my opinion is different... well it kind of grates a little.

Any bug in the game or system, which was used to depose a so called "rightful" delegate of a region is MORE then legal if that delegate is breaking basic rules of fairness I.E. getting rid of any opposition.

Rules of fairness?
Excuse, where in the rules is their a clause on fairness?

Max intended the game as a political simulation, and, as in most aspects of life, not everything is fair.
As long as Francos isn't breaking any game rules, then fairness has nothing to do with it.

Dictatorship is a political style, and as long as said dictator doesn't break any rules keeping power, then there is nothing for the mods to do.

again with the whining?

What you've posted is 100% whining, believe it or not.

Okay, first off, I was not on when this happend, if I had been I would have moved to the Pacific and endorced Corinthe, I have a solution, that may piss everybody off,

For two days, remove the ban list, and make it impossible to ban any one, then advertise this, let all the old people move back in, and let an OPEN election take place, if Franco wins, fine by me, if Corinthe wins, fine by me. This will shut up the people who whine about the mods not being impartial, and it will end the continuing debate about the Pacific.

This thread has been dead for awhile, since it's been moved it was suddenly ressurected so I'll just say my LAST bit on the matter and never come back to it.

First of all, yeah I admit I was hasty in implying that any mod-supporter was a coward and a nazi. That was wrong and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I MEANT to say something more along the lines of the old observance on Nazi Germany that applies here, without the Nazism. That is, about 20% of the population supports them (the mods in this case), 20% rebel and disagree strongly and 60% honestly don't care either way and tend to go along with the mods due to either it being the status quo, apathy or for a number of other reasons. This doesn't mean you ARE a coward or nazi or anything else I said, it's just saying that people in that 60% COULD be.

And secondly, there is always a clause of fairness in any game of any kind, or else it's not a game. Don't talk to me about politics and realism in NS when you have people whose nations are 1/4 the size of the world population today who have millions of planes and ships in their military.

Secondly, it ISN'T fair because there IS NO way to to overthrow Franco. And lastly it shouldn't be done in regions where newbies start, it isn't fair to them.

The world isn't a fair place, that's true. This isn't the world, it's a GAME.

I'm done. This thread should have stayed dead and I'm sorry for keeping the thing alive with my post, but I felt the need to defend myself a little.

Okay, first off, I was not on when this happend, if I had been I would have moved to the Pacific and endorced Corinthe, I have a solution, that may piss everybody off,

For two days, remove the ban list, and make it impossible to ban any one, then advertise this, let all the old people move back in, and let an OPEN election take place, if Franco wins, fine by me, if Corinthe wins, fine by me. This will shut up the people who whine about the mods not being impartial, and it will end the continuing debate about the Pacific.

This is not going to happen.. [violet] has already ruled that nothing will be "fixed" to re-create the situation that was never intentional to begin with.. and is certainly not going to deliberately create it again.

Stephanie
Forum Mod

For two days, remove the ban list, and make it impossible to ban any one, then advertise this, let all the old people move back in, and let an OPEN election take place, if Franco wins, fine by me, if Corinthe wins, fine by me. This will shut up the people who whine about the mods not being impartial, and it will end the continuing debate about the Pacific.

That's not fair. 2 days would completely humiliate him. Give me one day, and I still kick him off his chair :twisted:

-=Corinthe=-

Not this again. Did this really need to be bumped?

For two days, remove the ban list, and make it impossible to ban any one, then advertise this, let all the old people move back in, and let an OPEN election take place, if Franco wins, fine by me, if Corinthe wins, fine by me. This will shut up the people who whine about the mods not being impartial, and it will end the continuing debate about the Pacific.

Um... no offense but that would be the greatest act of bias the mods could ever do. To remove the power of a delegate for two days to allow a region-crash to go unopposed... that is very much bias in favour of the attackers.

This thread has been dead for awhile, since it's been moved it was suddenly ressurected so I'll just say my LAST bit on the matter and never come back to it.

*shrug* I trawl noderation, but not NS2. I suspect that will change when NS2 hits the 'net, but never mind. Looking at it from a different angle (the relevance to moderation, rather than NS2) isn't such a bad thing... I'm willing to keep yacking if you are :)

First of all, yeah I admit I was hasty in implying that any mod-supporter was a coward and a nazi. That was wrong and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I MEANT to say something more along the lines of the old observance on Nazi Germany that applies here, without the Nazism. That is, about 20% of the population supports them (the mods in this case), 20% rebel and disagree strongly and 60% honestly don't care either way and tend to go along with the mods due to either it being the status quo, apathy or for a number of other reasons. This doesn't mean you ARE a coward or nazi or anything else I said, it's just saying that people in that 60% COULD be.

And I'll admit that I understood exactly what you meant, even though I reacted in argument as if I didn't. A cheap tactic, I know... probably bad of me. Having studied Nazi Germany, I got the analogy about a population who doesn't really care about the policies of the government so long as it doesn't happen to them (and ignoring the terror inflicted on others).
I am mainly disputing that the current system could be compared to Nazi Germany... as I don't think that they are (as an institution) overly harsh or discriminatory. The only real bit of prejudice(sp?) that I know of is the mandated ban on swastikas on flags... and that comes from the owner, not the Mods.

So I feel its more like 60% of people not caring if Mahatma Ghandi eats fish or not, than 60% not caring about the Night of Broken Glass.

And secondly, there is always a clause of fairness in any game of any kind, or else it's not a game. Don't talk to me about politics and realism in NS when you have people whose nations are 1/4 the size of the world population today who have millions of planes and ships in their military.

In some ways that is very true... yet no matter how much it annoys George W. Bush, France has exactly the same number of votes on the UN Security Council as the USA does. one. The same one that, in NS, Franco's Spain has... or Corinthe, or me. It is therefore not about swaying a 4-squillion man army (armed with nuclear hand grenades), but about swaying one man for each vote. And that is the politics of the system.

Secondly, it ISN'T fair because there IS NO way to to overthrow Franco. And lastly it shouldn't be done in regions where newbies start, it isn't fair to them.

Yes there is... for a start: the ban list has a limit. And then there is co-ordination of the attack and erosion of his support. Get the people in there at the right time, having convinced the people already there to drop allegence to him at the same time. Corinthe has the right idea with the off-site message board: get the people, get it ready, set a date: do it!

And as far as I've seen (I admit I may well be wrong on this one), its not really the newbies who are suffering.

The world isn't a fair place, that's true. This isn't the world, it's a GAME.

So why should it be unfair against Franco?

I'm done. This thread should have stayed dead and I'm sorry for keeping the thing alive with my post, but I felt the need to defend myself a little.

Sorry if I made things personal, no offense intended.

Thoughts, fears, hopes, tears...
Tarrican out.

(edited for political correctness and because I missed out a point)

Okay, first off, I was not on when this happend, if I had been I would have moved to the Pacific and endorced Corinthe, I have a solution, that may piss everybody off,

For two days, remove the ban list, and make it impossible to ban any one, then advertise this, let all the old people move back in, and let an OPEN election take place, if Franco wins, fine by me, if Corinthe wins, fine by me. This will shut up the people who whine about the mods not being impartial, and it will end the continuing debate about the Pacific.

This is not going to happen.. [violet] has already ruled that nothing will be "fixed" to re-create the situation that was never intentional to begin with.. and is certainly not going to deliberately create it again.

Stephanie
Forum Mod

Ohh okay I'll shut up now.

Sorry Max.. No money for you. Thank -Drakma-

No Soup For You.



I leave for the weekend to attend a wedding, and suddenly I'm not trusted anymore?


Personally, don’t trust anyone with the name Glorious in his or her name.

There was confusion. You honestly thinmk the mods want FS in power? Did you even look at Corinthe's endorsement list? I would say you did not, as there was at least one mod in there giviing her support.


There were two mods, I think :lol:

My anti Francos forum is at: http://s2.invisionfree.com/The_Pacific/

A good place talk about this issue. No spies allowed :wink:

-=Corinthe=-

Yeah, sorry I haven't popped in yet. Will head in there today or tommorrow, we need to keep really good commuinication between the different groups.

Why is that people who complain about the mod action, refuse to take into account that the only reason they came so close was mod endorsements?


Again, again, again. Those who are mad, play the game. Contact those who are planning to take him over. This sort of whining, and that is what it is (whining because you fail to see what actually happened and the reasons for the actions, only see how it affects you) only hurts the cause, yo.

A lot of people aren't going to pay for NS2, for various reasons. I was seriously considering paying for it because of all the new features it would have, but now....