NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a warning. Cease posting silly UN proposals or face immediate ejection from that body.
I would like an explanation of this message. The resolution which it appears to be in response to wasn't intended as "silly" nor did it go against the posted rules as best as I could tell. I am confused as to what was meant in removing it and threatening me without explanation -- in order to follow a rule I need to know what it is.

Thank you.

Enodia's usually the one who polices the UN Proposal list, and he made a list of unacceptable proposal types a while back. Your proposal may have been in one of the following categories:


Offensive Proposal:
Any proposal dealing with killing off an ethnic, "racial" or sexual minority is going to die very rapidly. The same goes for the proposals about "hot chicks should be banned from wearing clothes" and so on.

Game Mechanics Proposal:
The game can be improved and - to the best of my knowledge - work is being done on it as we speak. Proposing a limit to the number of proposals per player per week isn't going to help the issue. Of course, the irony of someone making a proposal saying "nobody should be allowed to make game mechanics proposals" doesn't keep it alive.

Joke or otherwise silly proposals:
"The Right To Arm Bears" is a nice old joke, but it's not going to be in the proposal list if seen. The same goes for things like "The UN should declare war on (nation)" - the UN in this game can't and won't do that.

Real-Life Related Proposals:
Perhaps the US should do this that or the other, but they don't exist in NationStates. As a result, neither does a proposal about them. Also, remember that this UN isn't necessarily the author of the Declaration of Human Rights or anything like that.

Duplicate Proposals:
If, for whatever reason, you make the same proposal twice, one of them at least will be deleted.

Proposals which will not do what the text says they will:
This is a slightly vaguer category. As well as the old standard that a proposal to "relax gun control" will be deleted if the idea is to prevent people from owning guns, there are other things taken into account here too. Any proposal in the wrong category goes byebye, as do a large number of the ones about "The UN cannot impose its will on domestic policies of members" - especially when this proposal comes up as a "social justice" one.


I hope that helps.

Wow, thanks for the list.

I send Enodia a tm whenever I see one or more of the last (usually something like "gays must be banned from marrying" or more recently "send gays into space" and classified as "a resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights"), but I didnn't realize that their were any except the above and game mechanics.

The proposal in question (from Socratonesia) was, if memory serves, in relation to a desire to repeal the UN's first Resolution ("Fight The Axis of Evil").
I'm not going to bother rehashing the logic as to why this is a proposal that gets killed, suffice it to say that it covers a great deal of the reasons why proposals are removed. Literature on this particular issue is available around the fora quite readily.

I'm not going to bother rehashing the logic as to why this is a proposal that gets killed, suffice it to say that it covers a great deal of the reasons why proposals are removed. Literature on this particular issue is available around the fora quite readily.

Thank you for your response. I read your response as saying that while you are willing to take the time to respond, you would prefer to use that time to say, "I choose not to explain my actions" rather than to explain your actions. As I cannot play a game with rules that cannot be read and that will not be taught, I'm leaving the game.

I'm not going to bother rehashing the logic as to why this is a proposal that gets killed, suffice it to say that it covers a great deal of the reasons why proposals are removed. Literature on this particular issue is available around the fora quite readily.

Thank you for your response. I read your response as saying that while you are willing to take the time to respond, you would prefer to use that time to say, "I choose not to explain my actions" rather than to explain your actions. As I cannot play a game with rules that cannot be read and that will not be taught, I'm leaving the game.

There are many ways to play this game without mod intervention, and one of them is: "You have to resign from the UN, or obey the majority who mostly live in The Pacifics".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Central Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_central_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

I'm not going to bother rehashing the logic as to why this is a proposal that gets killed, suffice it to say that it covers a great deal of the reasons why proposals are removed. Literature on this particular issue is available around the fora quite readily.

Thank you for your response. I read your response as saying that while you are willing to take the time to respond, you would prefer to use that time to say, "I choose not to explain my actions" rather than to explain your actions. As I cannot play a game with rules that cannot be read and that will not be taught, I'm leaving the game.

I chose not to respond at the time because I was in a rush and because - as I made clear - the issue of "repealing resolutions" has been debated previously. Indeed, there were discussions at a "mods and [violet] level" regarding how such a change could be implemented. I believe that my record of full disclosure - particularly regarding UN Proposals (which have, for better or for worse, become my "little area of specialty") speaks for itself. Given my statement that "literature on this particular issue is available around the fora quite readily", it seems rather surprising that you should take such a high-horse attitude and interpret my words as saying "I will not explain my actions", where in fact my words were clearly (to my mind then and now) intended to convey the message "this has been dealt with before and I don't propose to rehash the arguments for and against."
For those wanting to claim that this is in itself a lack of full disclosure, I refer you to the myriad of threads locked by other moderators for much the same reason. Most threads regarding (to take a topical example) "when will we get the new issues?" tend to be answered briefly, the player asking the question pointed in the direction of a more thorough answer and then locked. I see no difference between those actions and what I have done here -> more to the point, this thread remains open to the current moment.

However, we'll have a quick look at why a proposal asking for a previous resolution to be repealed is going to be deleted, shall we?

Using Kandarin's list:
1. Offensive Proposal? Nope. This wasn't offensive to a minority or even to a majority. It passes the first test.
2. Game Mechanics? Aha. We begin to see the problem emerging, Igor. While the proposal in question does not ask for a general "ability to repeal proposals", it does ask for a particular proposal to be repealed, does it not? When a proposal is passed, all UN nations have their statistics changed in a particular way (game mechanics says as much). To "repeal" a proposal entails its effects on the statistics being "undone". This is a game mechanics issue.
3. Joke Proposal? Hmm...clearly not.
4. Real-Life Related? No, although as a side-note I have seen proposals wanting to have Fight the Axis repealed for Real-Life reasons.
5. Duplicate Proposals? Not as such, no. There've been a lot of proposals wanting the resolution repealed, but not all from the one person.
6. Text-VS-Effect (AKA: The Orwellian Conundrum)? Nope. I can't remember exactly what the proposal was phrased as, but an argument could be mounted that "repeal Fight the Axis of Evil" could fit under almost any category (although probably not "Drugs" or "Gambling").

Submitted for your convenience by the Electorate of Enodia
UN Proposal watch-cougar

Indeed, there were discussions at a "mods and [violet] level" regarding how such a change could be implemented.

May I ask what, if any, was the end result of those discussions? In other words, should we be looking forward towards a future in which previously passed resolutions can actually be repealed in some form?

While I acknowledge your previous elaborations on this issue, and agree there should be no need to repeat it all every time this issue comes up, I think I do understand some of the frustration displayed here. A lot of the rules in this game are 'Mod case law', basically interpretations and rulings made by Mods regarding a wide variety of issues. These are strewn all over the Moderation (and sometimes Technical) forum. With the search feature not covering the entire time period, finding what one is looking for can sometimes be extremely time-consuming (17525 posts in 1156 topics in Moderation as of this writing). I've been paying close attention to Mod/Tech for a couple of months now, and I think I know (most of) the rules and rulings by now. This should IMHO not be expected of new players.

Ballotonia

May I ask what, if any, was the end result of those discussions? In other words, should we be looking forward towards a future in which previously passed resolutions can actually be repealed in some form?

Hopefully.

Indeed, there were discussions at a "mods and [violet] level" regarding how such a change could be implemented.

May I ask what, if any, was the end result of those discussions? In other words, should we be looking forward towards a future in which previously passed resolutions can actually be repealed in some form?

While I acknowledge your previous elaborations on this issue, and agree there should be no need to repeat it all every time this issue comes up, I think I do understand some of the frustration displayed here. A lot of the rules in this game are 'Mod case law', basically interpretations and rulings made by Mods regarding a wide variety of issues. These are strewn all over the Moderation (and sometimes Technical) forum. With the search feature not covering the entire time period, finding what one is looking for can sometimes be extremely time-consuming (17525 posts in 1156 topics in Moderation as of this writing). I've been paying close attention to Mod/Tech for a couple of months now, and I think I know (most of) the rules and rulings by now. This should IMHO not be expected of new players.

Ballotonia

There probably ought to be an announcement in the UN forum how repeals are not allowed currently. Or at least an edit to the UN Proposal FAQ sticky.

I keep meaning to put a sticky about it in the UN forum, but I'm always pressed for time (like now).

I keep meaning to put a sticky about it in the UN forum, but I'm always pressed for time (like now).

Just don't post it at 11 PM. ;-)

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27232&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

(and yes, I am currently looking at ancient Tech threads :twisted:)