NationStates Jolt Archive

Pablo would like to take this opportunity to formally register unhappiness at the position the Moderators and specifically Neutered Sputniks have taken in the deletion of Beeker and his puppets.

Beeker as a nation was mostly harmless and it is Pablo's belief that more leeway should exist in the general forum than in other forums on the site.

It is also Pablo's opinion that there are many who are worse that Beeker on his worst day and pablo does not understand the basis of the decision.

Pablo acknowledges that we are all here with the permission of Max Barry ( a fine author ) and that Max has delegated his authority to the Moderators, but Pablo seeks the reciprocal acknowledgement that we are all stakeholders in the success of this site.

Pablo acknowledges a conflict of interest in that he enjoyed Beeker's "company" and brand of humour and tolerated his occasional macho proclamaitions as part of his (Beeker's) personal style.

Beeker created and contributed to many threads in the General forum which gave a lot of us pleasure and encouraged friendly discussion rather than acrimonious debate.

It seems to Pablo that when an arbitrary deletion is made based on limited scope it is almost always Neutered Sputniks doing, however pablo could well be wrong about this.

If players such as beeker and pablo, who rarely stray from the General forum, and hardly ever get involved in the rehash of left vs right viewpoints there, are not part of the target demographic for Nationstates and are therefore discouraged from joining and posting then Pablo would appreciate a statement to that effect so he can consider his future on the site.

I will make no further comment in this thread, but others should feel free to politely and respectfully put their views on the topic. I would prefer the thread to be limited to similar registration of displeasure but acknowledge that I have no control in any way anywhere on this site.

Regards

The Player Known As Pablo the Squirrel.

I would like to register my displeasure also, and inquire about any kind of appeal process.

I believe they have already stated that there will be no appeal.

Wait.... Beeker was deleted? Didn't notice, heh. Probably because I've been less active here now.

I believe they have already stated that there will be no appeal.
How about a Nationstates court of appeals? Counsels for defence and prosecution (2 players who hold different views on the subject), judge (moderator who is independant of whoever made the decision and forbidden from consulting others), jury (Players chosen randomly from the member roster), witnesses with sworn testimony.

Or even have a Supreme court, 9 moderators to hear the cases and pass judgement of the highest order, which can only be overturned by [violet] himself.

In cases of extreme trangressions of a major player, you could appoint a special prosecutor, the arch enemy of the player in question, who is granted semi-mod powers for the duration of the trial

Wait.... Beeker was deleted? Didn't notice, heh. Probably because I've been less active here now.
Happened probably less than an hour and a half before you posted this.

I like your ideas Spoffin.

Spoffin, that would be taking things way too seriously, and no-one would have the time. Can you imagine how many appeals would be lodged every day? It is far easier to warn, then delete, and assume they have learnt the lesson for next time. Harsh, but that is the way it must be. For every Beeker that gets toasted, there are tens of Christofis and Satans.

Wait.... Beeker was deleted? Didn't notice, heh. Probably because I've been less active here now.
Happened probably less than an hour and a half before you posted this.

Oh. What did he do? He seemed rather level to me.

I like your ideas Spoffin.
Wouldn't that make so much sense? It'd improve the game hugely, adding a whole new depth to the game, it wouldn't require any new coding, it'd kill people's complaints about the moderators, it'd be a democratic and fair way to deal with people who broke the rules... I think it would really fit in with the atmosphere of NationStates.

Mods would of course be retained to deal with spammers and flamers, at least until a case could be brought.

What are the downsides to this?

Spoffin, that would be taking things way too seriously, and no-one would have the time. Can you imagine how many appeals would be lodged every day? It is far easier to warn, then delete, and assume they have learnt the lesson for next time. Harsh, but that is the way it must be. For every Beeker that gets toasted, there are tens of Christofis and Satans.
Do it like a UN proposal then, a case can only be brought if a large number of people have an interest in it.

Also, why not take this seriously? This could be a cool new RP thing.

I also appeal the deltion of beeker.

Pablo would like to take this opportunity to formally register unhappiness at the position the Moderators and specifically Neutered Sputniks have taken in the deletion of Beeker and his puppets.

Pablo needs to stop referring to himself in the third person.

Yes, Beeker had a volatile nature. He didn't always think before he spoke. Heck, even I chewed him out a couple of times about it. But deletion? Beeker contributed far more to the forum than he detracted from it. Deleting him seems like far too harsh a measure.

Spoffin, that would be taking things way too seriously, and no-one would have the time. Can you imagine how many appeals would be lodged every day? It is far easier to warn, then delete, and assume they have learnt the lesson for next time. Harsh, but that is the way it must be. For every Beeker that gets toasted, there are tens of Christofis and Satans.
Do it like a UN proposal then, a case can only be brought if a large number of people have an interest in it.

Also, why not take this seriously? This could be a cool new RP thing.

I'd enjoy that...

Maybe you would have to petition for an appeal...Making it so 30 people would have to sign a petition (post in a petition forum) to get an appeal in order.

I also agree that it would fit perfectly in the atmosphere of NationStates.

Pablo would like to take this opportunity to formally register unhappiness at the position the Moderators and specifically Neutered Sputniks have taken in the deletion of Beeker and his puppets.

Pablo needs to stop referring to himself in the third person.
OMG, don't tell me you and TGM are the same person!!??

The only problem is that there might not be enought time for the dozens of appeals that would pour in each day...so maybe you would have to petition for an appeal...Making it so 30 people would have to sign a petition (post in a petition forum) to get an appeal in order.

I also agree that it would fit perfectly in the atmosphere of NationStates.
30 people... 30 UN people I think. Otherwise there'd be a severe case of puppet abuse.

Er...

Is there actually any solid founding for deleting Beeker? And don't say spamming, because he hasn't... recently, at least...

Sounds ok,if a fairly large number of people think something is wrong,i.e. a petition of a certain number of players


This is not a comment on Beekers deletion,I have no idea on that since Im rarely in general

Sounds ok,if a fairly large number of people think something is wrong,i.e. a petition of a certain number of players


This is not a comment on Beekers deletion,I have no idea on that since Im rarely in general

Yeah. I'm not familiar with Beeker, but it does sound like a lot of people are unhappy. I'm willing to give Neut the benefit of the doubt, but still...

Sounds ok,if a fairly large number of people think something is wrong,i.e. a petition of a certain number of players


This is not a comment on Beekers deletion,I have no idea on that since Im rarely in general

Yeah. I'm not familiar with Beeker, but it does sound like a lot of people are unhappy. I'm willing to give Neut the benefit of the doubt, but still...
What is to be lost by making the process open and democratic though?

Sounds ok,if a fairly large number of people think something is wrong,i.e. a petition of a certain number of players


This is not a comment on Beekers deletion,I have no idea on that since Im rarely in general

Yeah. I'm not familiar with Beeker, but it does sound like a lot of people are unhappy. I'm willing to give Neut the benefit of the doubt, but still...
What is to be lost by making the process open and democratic though?

Like I said,it sounds ok to me

I have an idea though,one rule could be that you couldnt appeal your own deletion,this could be checked by ip

Also, I'd like to say, there were a couple of times when Beeker flamed me, and if they were counted against him in any way, I'd like them not to have been.

I have an idea though,one rule could be that you couldnt appeal your own deletion,this could be checked by ip
Even if you did, it would still need backing by other people, but otherwise that makes sense.

You certainly shouldn't be allowed to take part in your own trial though

Any mods with a thought on this, just to sound out some of the problems?

Bump cos this is a good idea

Pablo would like to take this opportunity to formally register unhappiness at the position the Moderators and specifically Neutered Sputniks have taken in the deletion of Beeker and his puppets.

Pablo needs to stop referring to himself in the third person.

Katganistan recognizes Pablo the Squirrel's right to refer to him or herself in the third person as it is merely a stylistic way to make him or herself stand out from everyone else.

Katganistan also does not understand Snubis' dislike of third person such that his/her 'command' needed to be made on two separate threads.

What triggered Beeker's deletion specifically? Does anyone know?

I should point out that Tactical Grace is right.

If they are going to get rid of rightists and nazis who flame., then it is only fari to get rid of leftists and anti-nazis who do the same thing, for all that they do it less.

What triggered Beeker's deletion specifically? Does anyone know?

Right now, it seems to be purely the whim of a Game Moderator...

I've seen no proof as of yet.

What triggered Beeker's deletion specifically? Does anyone know?

Right now, it seems to be purely the whim of a Game Moderator...

I've seen no proof as of yet.
Well nothing recent anywhen, but they didn't delete Philandrea on anything recent either.

What triggered Beeker's deletion specifically? Does anyone know?

Right now, it seems to be purely the whim of a Game Moderator...

I've seen no proof as of yet.
Well nothing recent anywhen, but they didn't delete Philandrea on anything recent either.

So basically, it goes like this...

I wonder who I'll delete today...

Oooooh, I know!

*pokes the "Delete" link next to Beeker...*

?

No, what happened with Marathon was that a bunch of rightishts began spamming the getting help page, and so Nweut deletted Phil to get them to stop it.

I suspect that the same thing happened with Satan and Beeks.

No, what happened with Marathon was that a bunch of rightishts began spamming the getting help page, and so Nweut deletted Phil to get them to stop it.

I suspect that the same thing happened with Satan and Beeks.

You know I really don't think the mods give a damn of anyones political affiliation

Ur6 also is disspleased

No, what happened with Marathon was that a bunch of rightishts began spamming the getting help page, and so Neut deletted Phil to get them to stop it.

I suspect that the same thing happened with Satan and Beeks.

You know I really don't think the mods give a damn of anyones political affiliation

No, not the mods, the reactionary lynch mobs (not all rightists, just those like Fantasan and Atomic, but there are a lot of them)

I agree that the general forum should be a little more relaxed (with flaming) than other forums. It is the general forum, with general discussion. This stuff happens in real life, in general discussion. Though, I know that my opinion does not count, I still with to put it. I am not saying that flaming should be tolerated, but just be a little more relaxed in that specific forum. I would also like to see what Beeker did to be deleted, at least the final thing.

If someone is not emotionally secure enough to take a little flame here and there, they should not be in the general forum and should play a single player game on their Nintendo 64.

"Court of Apeals". Heh. How soon we forget...

This forum was created to give people a way to question Moderator actions without spamming up Technical. [violet] considered a sort of "oversight commitee", but decided that it was largely impractical, and diffucult to impliment. The problem of bias was also considered.

What was decided was the creation of a new forum would allow for oversight, but limit the chances of a witch hunt. So, no, there isn't going to be a "court" in any form, any time in the forseeable future.

Furthermore, Neut stated in one of the threads in General that he did not delete "Cat in the Hat".

Ahhh, but when a player has continually ignored warnings by Mods, there comes a point where it's gone too far.

It's like speeding tickets...you get enough, the law says you lose your license. Were you warned every time you got a speeding ticket that you'd lose your license if you werent more cautious? Most likely not, but that doesnt mean it wont happen when the times comes. Here in the forums, everyone knows the rules, everyone knows that flaming can/will get one deleted, and yet Beeker ignored outright warnings and was even forum-banned for flaming.

Now, I dont know what else should have been done, save letting Beeker have rull reign of the forums, but this is not his site, and he agreed to the ToS.


As for a formal appeals process, just because there's a process doesnt mean the appeal will be approved. Nations that have been deleted for rules violations stay that way - DEAT. Very often the Mods have access to more than the rest of the forum, and thus there are hidden factors in a Nation's deletion at times.

Furthermore, Neut stated in one of the threads in General that he did not delete "Cat in the Hat".

Then what was Cat in the Hat deleted for then?

Furthermore, Neut stated in one of the threads in General that he did not delete "Cat in the Hat".

Then what was Cat in the Hat deleted for then?

Don't ask me. I was asleep when this happened.

Ahhh, but when a player has continually ignored warnings by Mods, there comes a point where it's gone too far.

You keep on saying I have had all these warnings...when exactly? :?

Beeker, you were forum banned, and the Mods told you why, and that you should stop. Is that not a warning? What did you want, a threatening telegram?

There is already a topic discussing Beeker's deletion here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75826), we don't need multiple topics.

iLock.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator