NationStates Jolt Archive

I am totally pissed off at the fact that a nation by the name of Telak is still in existance even though he has spammed 11 message boards. Also he did this 6 BLOODY hours ago!!!!!!

I filed a report and posted a complaint on these forums along with many others as soon as it happened!

So what has happened???

1) Are the mods so incompetant that they may miss something as clear as this??

2) Maybe there are too few mods???

Or spamming on a major scale is now legal.

I believe that having 6 or so game mods running a game of thousands is an absolute farce. Dont fill me with crap that the mods have a hard time and have a million and one things to do. If thats the case then more mods would be the answer. Its not complex is it?

Anyway this slow response (well i say that in the hope that after 6 hours they respond soon!) is unacceptable.

This is not an attack on our current overworked mods but just myself trying to comprehend as to why this nation is still around.

I think it has to do with most of the Mods just being generally burnt out. No matter what rule we enforce, we're the bad guys because we're enforcing the rules everyone agreed to when they created their nation(s).

You guys dont think Mods should be as active, we're not being as active. Notice how quickly everyone starts screaming for Mods?...

It is very rare for a spammer to be deleted that quickly. Up to a day is pretty typical. And in the case of repeat offenders, ie those returning in a variety of guises, it takes days to implement an IP ban, as they have to make a request to that effect to Admin.

Regarding the number of Mods, they actually have record numbers right now. Recruiting more at this stage would probably be deemed unnecessary and in any case would be difficult as there are few worthy candidates.

I think it has to do with most of the Mods just being generally burnt out. No matter what rule we enforce, we're the bad guys because we're enforcing the rules everyone agreed to when they created their nation(s).

You guys dont think Mods should be as active, we're not being as active. Notice how quickly everyone starts screaming for Mods?...


I never said that you were the bad guys. I just said that more mods would be nice to ease the work load of the current mods hence to get rid of this spammer which is spoiling this game for alot of people.

There are many nice people here that would surely be an able mod Tactical Grace. Like yourself.

Dear lord, lets stop this now. Not ANOUTHER "These people should be mods" thread.

Dear Lord this is a MORE MODS thread.

Tactifull Grace was merely an on the spot suggestion. I dont even like the guy but when someone spams half of nationstates and goes unpunished something has to be done.

I am just wondering why the tosser has not been deleted after 7 hours even though a game mod has replyed to THIS VERY THREAD.


is spamming legal by the way??

SPAMers are not simply delt with on site. They are done in order. A mod can not simply go hit delete, they first must check on the situation, talk it over with other mods (ofetn) ect, ect...it can tak a bit. Chill. It will be done. Just chill.

is spamming legal by the way??

Spamming is not legal. The precise definition of what the mods consider to be "spamming" is somewhat in question, however.

SPAMers are not simply delt with on site. They are done in order. A mod can not simply go hit delete, they first must check on the situation, talk it over with other mods (ofetn) ect, ect...it can tak a bit. Chill. It will be done. Just chill.


Check the situation???

You dont have to start a public investigation to see that this guy has spammed half of nationstates!!!!!

They have to talk with other mods??? WHY???

Well surely they can "go hit delete" after 7 hours.








can they?

From what I have seen, there have been many spamming actions only very recently. Each of them has been solved, but it took time. I know how annoying spamming is. However, one has to acknowledge that

1) if the mods would act very quick, the spammer would have no chance to stop it and apologise (and as it's not a capital offense, they should be given this opportunity. 7 hours are not much time to learn. Give them at least one day)

2) if the mods deleted too quickly, there might be doubts about whether it really was justified to do so and they would face at least some abuse. So there is a big need for a good investigation.

3) somebody will always complain. "Too quick" "too slow" "no warning" "not enough warnings" "too many warnings" "no time to respond", whatever.

3) I know how you feel, but still your posts are somewhat impolite. There is definitely nothing going wrong on the mods' part. AFAIK, there has been not a single spammer who did not eventually get ejected so we may well just lean back and relax. Maybe drop him a single line saying "you will be history soon." and let the mods do what's appropriate (without any payment whatsoever). AFAICS they are very responsible.

So please calm down, don't give the mods a crappy time.

Even in the most obvious cases, they do not like to be too quick on the trigger.

Satan's General Forum spamming is a case in point. He was gone within an hour, while still in mid-flow. Now we have had a dozen threads dedicated to this "injustice", and a puppet nation set up solely for the flaming of a player who had little to do with it. Many have criticised the Moderators for providing no warning, and not giving him a second chance. This, then, is an example of the flak they get when they are very efficient.

The America Inc (ad infinitum) debacle is the reverse - four days of spamming, over a dozen regions and their delegates affected over that period of time. By the end of it, the guy had probably become NationStates' most prolific spammer, creating one puppet after another as fast as the others could be deleted. At the same time, the Moderators had to deal with a load of threads demanding to know why nothing was being done with regard to an IP ban.

As you can see, the old adage "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" is remarkably apt; no wonder then that they are "burnt out", as one said, from trying to walk through some middle ground and being criticised by both camps in the process.

Yep point taken. I apoligise.

I think it has to do with most of the Mods just being generally burnt out. No matter what rule we enforce, we're the bad guys because we're enforcing the rules everyone agreed to when they created their nation(s).


Perhaps it's the manner you're enforcing rather than the enforcement itself.

To be honest - public modding and complaints thereof by moderators genearally get tuned to the idea of "look who's thumping their Organ" then when the moderator complains it seems that they are looking for folks to rush forward and bolster their self esteem (and I am not singling you out NS).

It's a lose / lose proposition that you and the other mods are getting nailed over.

When all this mod electing started I kept on harping on the idea of "private modding" - keep the crap in the background and you won't be getting all the public vigilanteeism around that draw crowds to complaign. I was essentially kicked to the curb and told to "shut up".

Look where your modding model has led you. Rules lawyers depating nitpics - blatent examples of two tiered modding - people harping on who or what mod favorites their constituents.

To tell you the honest truth - ya'll have reaped what you've sown. Sure it's a rush slamming down publically someone who annoys you, or excersizing the power of forum blocking or nation deleting so that all may "fear and tremble". The rub lies in the details - in a forum this size there will always be someone who can successfully point to something you've overlooked and derail that happy little power train.

I know I'm going to get hit hard for stating it - but the proof lies in the pudding. This is what you all wanted, and this is what you've gotten - If you want some honest advice on how to fix this? Dump this "moderation" forum and replace it with an e-mail que. Kill off any complaints in the technical area, and don't allow public complaints in all forums. Inform folks (including me) that board policy won't be up for debate, and all questions will be FAIRLY adjudicated via e-mail. Stop going for the popularity contest on what mod can crush who and be sucked up for it, and replace it with a fair multi-mod decision set that stands behind their decisions and enfoces the decisions unilaterally and consistently.

MAKE SURE to reach a mod consensus on decisions - no more of this Unilateral stuff - the forum admin should be the ONLY one that does that. Work together as a TEAM, and STOP with the public comments - you only damage your position and leech away respect for it.

I'm sure that this post will be called "griefing" even tho it isn't aimed as such. Some who know me here understand I have different terms that I would of used if I was harrasing a mod here. I am not harrasing a mod - I am venting about this whole public modding that just spawns off storms.

And yes, I quoted you NS, but trust me - had I been attempting to grief you - I could of done a much finer job with one picture and a link to a wave file. So please - read what I said and take it with two grains of salt and DISCUSS it with your peers.

In case I get forum banned for this post - It's been a slice folks.

Humor troll, signing out.

Peace

And if the mods took the time to reach a concensus on every decision, the tasklist wouldn't be about one week behind. It would be more like one or two months behind. :roll:

Then you need some serious help. I'm willing to bet a large portion of the "task list" is due to many issues that shouldn't even be issues, and I'm also willing to bet that some issues resurface constantly.

The ones that resurface constantly should have the same decision applied - with little more than a form letter sent back. The stickier ones can be reaced and dealt with by as little as two mods.

For cases of invasions, griefings - or other DB lookups you should have mods who's sole duty is to get to know the database - and don't bloody choose players that are actively playing their nations - that's time that could be spent getting your "tasklist" up to speed. And also - don't complaign that the position is unpaid, or that there is no reward - ask for volunteers that will no RP or Grief and do the job for you. There are many that woudl do it in a heartbeat to help out the forum.

Run the Mods like a business - set up sections to work together and get something accomplished.

And I seem to recall all the rule changes coming from a general Mod consensus...just because you dont see us debating it right in front of your face does not mean we dont discuss the issue. :roll:


Lem, have you thought that maybe we aren't just Mods because it "gets our rocks off," that maybe we take action because it needs to be done. Now, I know I'm known for being "trigger-happy," but to be honest, I'd rather warn a player than have to delete him.

Take for instance Philandrea's reincarnation. Phil was back to his old tricks - trolling, flaming, general disruption of the forum. Being as he'd already had a nation deleted for such acts a second deletion would hardly be out of order - no warning necessary. Rather than simply delete, I entered a controversial discussion ( a flame thread) and salvaged quite an intelligent debate by the time the thread died. And I did all that to "thump my chest" and "get my rocks off" on what again?


However, when I'm catching flak for Philandrea's deletion and then begin taking flak from the same people because I didnt delete another flamer, or even Philandrea's reincarnation - explain to me what my motivation to "please the general public" of this forum is? Hell, what's my motiviation to even go out of my way to resolve issues?

Go out of my way and get hung for it, just because I'm a Mod...? RIght.


Maybe if everyone quit seeing the actions taken as being anti-their-side we wouldnt have so many Mods getting burnt out with all the complaints that we're acting unfairly in enforcing the rules that everyone reading this has agreed upon.


Or maybe I'm just a Mod and I dont know what I'm talking about because I'm the "establishment" and at all costs everyone must fight the "establishment." Ahhh, the irony....ever read Jennifer Government...?

And I seem to recall all the rule changes coming from a general Mod consensus...just because you dont see us debating it right in front of your face does not mean we dont discuss the issue. :roll: Funny - that goes directly at odds with what Reploid just posted.
Lem, have you thought that maybe we aren't just Mods because it "gets our rocks off," that maybe we take action because it needs to be done. Hello Strawman number one - Umm - nope - I never said that. Perhaps you can quote in context where that was my statement about all the mods?Now, I know I'm known for being "trigger-happy," but to be honest, I'd rather warn a player than have to delete him. Then do so in private - and keep it there.

Take for instance Philandrea's reincarnation. Phil was back to his old tricks - trolling, flaming, general disruption of the forum. Being as he'd already had a nation deleted for such acts a second deletion would hardly be out of order - no warning necessary. Rather than simply delete, I entered a controversial discussion ( a flame thread) and salvaged quite an intelligent debate by the time the thread died. And I did all that to "thump my chest" and "get my rocks off" on what again? Hello Strawman number two - Umm - I never said that - but keep trying to drive the conversation off track ok?


However, when I'm catching flak for Philandrea's deletion and then begin taking flak from the same people because I didnt delete another flamer, or even Philandrea's reincarnation - explain to me what my motivation to "please the general public" of this forum is? Hell, what's my motiviation to even go out of my way to resolve issues? Then quit - and let someone who won't worry about the "motivation" and instead gets out there and does the job.

Go out of my way and get hung for it, just because I'm a Mod...? RIght.

Gosh - it's a field of strawmen tonight - must be close to october.
Maybe if everyone quit seeing the actions taken as being anti-their-side we wouldnt have so many Mods getting burnt out with all the complaints that we're acting unfairly in enforcing the rules that everyone reading this has agreed upon. Uh huh - so exactly when did the nation that was mentioned in another thread get deleted since the term that was said to be a disallowed word in nation states get deleted? you know the one UN guy running a mod's region? I don't want to use the word and get forum banned.
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73154&start=40

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=Sneaky%20Bastards



Or maybe I'm just a Mod and I dont know what I'm talking about because I'm the "establishment" and at all costs everyone must fight the "establishment." Ahhh, the irony....ever read Jennifer Government...?

Hello strawman number 4! Nice try on spinning it - but that's not what I'm talking about.

Lem, have you thought that maybe we aren't just Mods because it "gets our rocks off," that maybe we take action because it needs to be done.

Hello Strawman number one - Umm - nope - I never said that. Perhaps you can quote in context where that was my statement about all the mods?

How about right freaking here
...Sure it's a rush slamming down publically someone who annoys you, or excersizing the power of forum blocking or nation deleting so that all may "fear and tremble".

Then quit - and let someone who won't worry about the "motivation" and instead gets out there and does the job.
They try to do their job right. But then you get people like you who are constanly going...
"YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT! YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT! YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT! YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT! ...." On and on and on without stop.
It wears on ones nerves and everyone has a breaking point.

Perhaps they would be happier and more energetic about their job if people like you would just shut up.

How about right freaking here
...Sure it's a rush slamming down publically someone who annoys you, or excersizing the power of forum blocking or nation deleting so that all may "fear and tremble".

Not seeing how I accused all mods or singled any out. I did however, leave it dangling on a dry hook three feet out of the water for any that thought it might apply to them to be snapped at.

Thanks for playing..LOL

They try to do their job right. But then you get people like you who are constanly going...
"YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT! YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT! YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT! YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT! ...." On and on and on without stop.
It wears on ones nerves and everyone has a breaking point.

Perhaps they would be happier and more energetic about their job if people like you would just shut up.

Not gonna happen. because the job ISN'T being done right.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73154&start=40

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=Sneaky%20Bastards

How about we have some consistency.

No? why not?

Relax, man. The Moderators act the way they act because that is what the Admin expects of them, simple as that. The can't just change their procedures because the present arrangements are unpopular.

Relax, man. The Moderators act the way they act because that is what the Admin expects of them, simple as that. The can't just change their procedures because the present arrangements are unpopular.

Ahhh, so the admin has laid out an inconsistent arrangement as a road map to banning nations -

Gotcha - And how does this work? If a word is banned - what roadmap does the admin lay out to dictate which nation gets the boot, and which nation doesn't?

In the case of banned words, I would expect it to be left to the Mods as a matter of common sense. And remember that not every Mod is a Game Mod. The Forum Mods cannot delete nations, so if they see something, they have to take it to a Game Mod and have them agree that that nation should be deleted. Thus it is often a matter of consensus which may take some time to reach, for example if no Game Mod is online. They rarely have the opportunity to do anything unilaterally. Also, Admin logs everything they do, so they must be careful that their investigations are not interpreted as excessively intrusive.

So commen sense trumps consistency?

Can you see where that might breed a little bit of contempt over modding based on who might be a friend, and who might not be?

I am sure they do not indulge in cliquish favouritism. Many times I have seen them put up their hands in frustration, unable to do anything, where one would have expected them to do their stuff, had they been totally biased.

Did you read the links over the banned word? What do you think should be done? A ressurection and an apology? Or Banning a region Head?

I think it is easier to assume that the word is not intended to cause offense when it is the name of a relatively quiet and civil nation, than when it is used by a spammer and flamer. Inconsistent, maybe, but justice cannot be perfect.

I think it is easier to assume that the word is not intended to cause offense when it is the name of a relatively quiet and civil nation, than when it is used by a spammer and flamer. Inconsistent, maybe, but justice cannot be perfect.

You see - I think that it was just an exscuse - rather than a rule that was being presented. I also think that not much thought went into the posting on reasoning. And I also think none of this would of been an issue had it been handled behind the scenes.

as such - we see that the rules will be applied "Depending" on who may or may not be a friend.

and that - is a really bad thing.

I am sure they do not indulge in cliquish favouritism.
Not all the time, anyways.

I also think that not much thought went into the posting on reasoning. And I also think none of this would of been an issue had it been handled behind the scenes.
Firstly, they do not have the time to compose watertight reasoning in response to every inquiry. Secondly, if they were doing it all behind the scenes and people got that impression, the very same people would be baying for their blood over their "oppressive secrecy" or some such. They have a hard time shaking off the secret society image as it is, without being seen to do stuff in the shadows.

Firstly, they do not have the time to compose watertight reasoning in response to every inquiry. Secondly, if they were doing it all behind the scenes and people got that impression, the very same people would be baying for their blood over their "oppressive secrecy" or some such. They have a hard time shaking off the secret society image as it is, without being seen to do stuff in the shadows.

I noticed you left off the more relevant portions of my statement in order to not address them.

as such - I think we're done. I've made my point - otherwise you wouldn't of dodged around it ;)

It is difficult to address any conspiracy theory. ;)

or to create one... I have to give you points for trying..

Well that's news to me. The only conspiracy theory I can see here is that they represent the interests of their friends.

Well that's news to me. The only conspiracy theory I can see here is that they represent the interests of their friends.

LOL - and that of course - proves that the mods are not impartial - and you'll never get a fair shake.

LM, You do make some good posts early on in this thread. We really are in a lose/lose (or perhaps lost/lost?) situation. Public moderation can be a good thing by keeping people informed and making us more accessable. It boils down to a good will effort by us to be helpful. But, there is something to be said for private moderation, the problem is that it is easier for abuse to occur as there are no checks and balances, here there are some. No matter what, there will be problems. But, perhaps your suggestion could work, and maybe we will try it and see?

All I can say is that I am very thankful that I don't need to deal with much of this insanity. All I ask of the public is that you do remember that we are trying to do a good job, and that we truly aren't malicious, but just trying to do our best.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

So commen sense trumps consistency?
It appears that you consider this to be very much a binary system - an action, a post, a nation name, etc. which fits certain criteria is either "acceptable" or "unacceptable" in all cases, effectively turning the moderators into deterministic automata. While such a system might appear to be a good idea at first, actually attempting to use it would show that this is not the case - the language(s) and actions involved provide a huge communication-space (using a dictionary* containing two articles, ten nouns, ten verbs and ten adjectives, one can construct 400000 sentences of the form "article adjective noun verb article adjective noun" (an example: "The blind archer quoted an existing post"). When one considers that English is a context-free language with many ambiguities and the size of the dictionary is much greater than 32 words, it becomes clear that no binary rule system can respond in a reasonable manner to every possible sentence (or even every sentence which actually occurs), let alone any possible post which could be made. Furthermore, other languages may be involved, and the in-game actions available complicate things still further.

Now, considering the above reasons, it can be seen that the moderators must be able to interpret rules and definitions and act upon these interpretations in a somewhat flexible manner (applying "common sense") in order for the entire system to work (although there are certain aspects where an inflexible rule or even an automaton would be acceptable, one of which I'll explain below). As it is not (yet) possible to create an artificial intelligence which can accurately understand the meaning behind the posts and actions people make, we must rely on the interpretation and judgement of humans as the only known intelligences capable of this, and accept that mistakes are still possible and that decisions may not always appear to be consistent. Also, don't forget that the rest of us don't usually have access to all the information the moderators do.

Now, one situation where an automaton should not produce false positives would be detection of telegram spam.
If a nation sends more than three identical telegrams to a nation within thirty minutes, and this is done to several nations, it is considered to be spam and a warning is sent (or the sender nation is deleted if there is a record of several previous warnings being sent).
Note that this omits some necessary detail, as I have no desire to type out a multi-page description of a more complete and reliable algorithm. It also produces false negatives (realistically this is unavoidable), so moderators would still have to investigate in some situations.

Finally, I'd like to state that I believe more game moderators would be a good idea, assuming that trustworthy and reliable people with sufficient time to devote can be found. It may or may not help the burnout problem, but spreading the workload over a few more people shouldn't hurt.

* I'm not entirely sure that this is correct as a technical term - hopefully it's obvious that I'm referring to a set of words.

Erm - if a word is deemed "offensive" then it becomes a Binary representation. No spin allowed if you get my drift. To do else smacks of favoritism.

Meh, one solution to this whole debacle - delete and IP ban on the first offense. Clean and quick. Use Gestapo tatics to smack down all that object, eventaully, the only players left will be the ones who "appreciate" the job that the mods are doing. I don't particularily enjoy this spamming either; hell, I've been the victim of it in the recent days; but I just file my complaint(s) and carry on. Remember folks, it's only a game. You can't ignore spammers in RL.

For those who don't get it, spammers = obnoxious people that you have to deal with.

Yes, there are a few words for which a binary representation is appropriate, but many others (the aforementioned "bastard" is a good example) have both offensive and non-offensive meanings, and that is where the binary representation fails and a "shades-of-grey" representation becomes valid. To most people, "The Blind Archer is an utter bastard" would be considered offensive and/or antagonistic (except perhaps if it's The Blind Archer who said it), whereas "The Blind Archer is a clever bastard" would not. It also depends on the context in which the statement is used.

Erm - if a word is deemed "offensive" then it becomes a Binary representation. No spin allowed if you get my drift. To do else smacks of favoritism.

No... to do else smacks of good sense. There is a lot of meaning in language given to use and context. Yes, there are bad words... but a character in an RP thread saying "Aw, cr*p!" as he spots the explosives that are next to his foot is considerably different to saying 'you are cr*p' to another nation.

A lot of what makes the difference between banning and not is in attitude. How you post and how you respond to requests to no longer post like that.

Any solid definition of where 'the line' is only enables people to dance up and down one milimetre from it with complete impunity while irritating people ("but I haven't crossed the line!"). It's better to keep it circumstances-based and sensible.

LOL - So there are places on this board I can use a swastika? as long as my intent isn't to glorify Hitler? Perhaps I'll start a religious state that uses ancient sanskrit. That would allow me to use the reverse swastika since my "intent" in using the forbidden symbol isn't conflicting with the reason it's been banned.

Or perhaps I'll use the "F" word in a name - if I recall, there was a German word = "fuch" or something like that I could incorporate as long as I wasn't using the "F" word in an insulting attempt.

Look - we can argue nuances all day - Bottom line is if a word is "Deemed Offensive" then you've drawn a line, and all nations have to toe that line. Otherwise flat out admit the bias and say "Hey, We don't care".

LOL - So there are places on this board I can use a swastika? as long as my intent isn't to glorify Hitler? Perhaps I'll start a religious state that uses ancient sanskrit. That would allow me to use the reverse swastika since my "intent" in using the forbidden symbol isn't conflicting with the reason it's been banned.

Or perhaps I'll use the "F" word in a name - if I recall, there was a German word = "fuch" or something like that I could incorporate as long as I wasn't using the "F" word in an insulting attempt.

Look - we can argue nuances all day - Bottom line is if a word is "Deemed Offensive" then you've drawn a line, and all nations have to toe that line. Otherwise flat out admit the bias and say "Hey, We don't care".

Now you're just being ridiculous LM. And you were accusing me of picking at straws?

Lets see, Max completely outlawed the use of Swastikas, therefore, you cant use swastikas. The difference between that rule and the offensive nation title rule is that the Swastika rule was quite close ended - a distinct line was drawn - whereas the offensive nation title was left to the discretion of the Moderators.

Using any word to attempt to get around the word censor is the same as using the censored word itself. Qutie frankly, I dont see how one could use "f****" in a non-offensive manner on this forum as the verb, noun, and adjective are all considered offensive.

The REAL bottom line here? You just dont know when to quit LM. You're continuing to pick at straws that arent even there to begin with. And you want us to believe that some of the Mods are biased? Take a long, LONG, hard look in the mirror before you bring anything else to the table.

ERM = "LOL" stands for "Laughs out Loud" and I knew the comparison was ridiculous - as ridiculous as the previous posts slant on the banned word in question.(Note - I am not flaming the previous posters, I am merely using the term presented - I usually illustrate absurdity by being absurd - it's a tactic I like)

As for not knowing when to quit - I was merrily debating until We'd GOTTEN a consensus - Has there been a decision reached pertaining to this? If so - then I missed it and I'd have to apologize since I wasn't planning on continuing the debate once someone stepped forward and did the right or wrong thing. Here's a link to what I was pertaining to.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73154&start=40

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=Sneaky%20Bastards

Seriously- not trying to be inflammatory - just would like to know where the decision is so that we all can drop this and move on.

Ahh - never mind - reread the thread to see where I missed it.

you posted at Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:59 am To the thread - and I hadn't read it until after I posted my reply to you. To clarify - I wrote the response you addressed at Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:25 am which was an hour and a half before you posted your "context post"

Thank you for the clarification, and At this point I'll take up the discussion behind the scenes and not clutter up this forum.

Thanx NS.