NationStates Jolt Archive

The thread "Should 2/3 majority on UN resolutions be required?" in the United Nations forum was locked by Stephistan earlier today.


Here were her reasons:-

This topic has been locked for flaming. All the flaming post have been removed. I didn't want to delete the topic because it was a good debate until the flaming started. However, it will remain locked as to curb the person from keeping their flaming going.



I too thought that it was a good debate, one that would hopefully have led to changing the UN for the better. Surely this one person who was flaming was warned, therefore if they had continued flaming they would have got banned from the forum (or even deleted), therefore no more flaming, and any further flame removed. As the flaming was removed, then I do not see how locking this thread serves any purpose.
I find it concerning that the moderator that locked it, Stephistan, was also taking part in the debate. Therefore, how can she claim impartiality in taking the decision to lock the thread, especially as we can no longer see the deleted flame that led to this decision. It could lead people to think that this thread was locked, and partially deleted, simply because somebody disagreed with one of the moderators. If the thread had been locked by a moderator that had not taken part in the debate, I would find it easier to accept this action.

I would like to see this thread unlocked so that this debate may continue, without having to start a new thread on this subject.

As the flaming was removed, then I do not see how locking this thread serves any purpose.

Perhaps it's just a temporary lock to let people cool down a bit? Or perhaps there's reason to believe this thread will continue as a flamefest if it were to remain unlocked?

how can she claim impartiality in taking the decision to lock the thread, especially as we can no longer see the deleted flame that led to this decision.

While moderators often are willing to further explain their rationale behind decisions, do not expect this for everything they do. They simply do too much to spend the time to explain it all in detail. One has to place faith in the Moderators that they at least intend to do a good job. This is the trust they have been given, and barring evidence to the contrary this trust will remain. Also note it's [violet]'s trust in the Mods which is what counts, not your or mine.

Ballotonia

If it makes you feel better, I was considering locking it myself earlier. It had largely deteriorated into flames.

I will admit that the flaming was directed at me. It was getting rather brutal. I want to make clear though, I would of locked it if the flaming had been directed at any one to that extent. I also did send a firm warning to the person in question that flaming and flamebait would not be tolerated.

I agree it was a good debate, that is why I removed the flame posts and didn't delete the topic. I'm sorry, I felt I had no other choice.

Not that it's for me to decide when a debate is over, but I think most of the UN members had made their feelings quite known already in this topic. It does still exists, I didn't delete it, so people can still read it.

You could always start a new thread about the subject and we can cross our fingers that this person doesn't move their petty insults to that thread as well.

Peace,
Stephanie.
Forum Mod.

I will admit that the flaming was directed at me. It was getting rather brutal. I want to make clear though, I would of locked it if the flaming had been directed at any one to that extent. I also did send a firm warning to the person in question that flaming and flamebait would not be tolerated.

I agree it was a good debate, that is why I removed the flame posts and didn't delete the topic. I'm sorry, I felt I had no other choice.

Not that it's for me to decide when a debate is over, but I think most of the UN members had made their feelings quite known already in this topic. It does still exists, I didn't delete it, so people can still read it.

You could always start a new thread about the subject and we can cross our fingers that this person doesn't move their petty insults to that thread as well.

Peace,
Stephanie.
Forum Mod.


Thank you for responding in a clear and concise manner. While not necessarily agreeing with you completely, I find it easier to accept why you felt it was in order to take the action that you did. A little clarity and openness on decision making does no harm in allaying some of the concerns that people on here have about the moderators. It was just a great shame that the thread had to be locked. There are not that many where a genuinely thoughtful debate takes place, and it is regrettable that this one degenerated into flame.


On the subject of the thread ‘Should 2/3 majority on UN resolutions be required?’, the final poll results were Yes – 103 (87%) and No – 16 (13%). Compared to the majority of polls on NS, this was a fairly sizeable response, with a very clear result. Are the mods / admin now looking at this idea seriously, with a view to implementing it in the game?

I will admit that the flaming was directed at me. It was getting rather brutal. I want to make clear though, I would of locked it if the flaming had been directed at any one to that extent. I also did send a firm warning to the person in question that flaming and flamebait would not be tolerated.

I agree it was a good debate, that is why I removed the flame posts and didn't delete the topic. I'm sorry, I felt I had no other choice.

Not that it's for me to decide when a debate is over, but I think most of the UN members had made their feelings quite known already in this topic. It does still exists, I didn't delete it, so people can still read it.

You could always start a new thread about the subject and we can cross our fingers that this person doesn't move their petty insults to that thread as well.

Peace,
Stephanie.
Forum Mod.


Thank you for responding in a clear and concise manner. While not necessarily agreeing with you completely, I find it easier to accept why you felt it was in order to take the action that you did. A little clarity and openness on decision making does no harm in allaying some of the concerns that people on here have about the moderators. It was just a great shame that the thread had to be locked. There are not that many where a genuinely thoughtful debate takes place, and it is regrettable that this one degenerated into flame.


On the subject of the thread ‘Should 2/3 majority on UN resolutions be required?’, the final poll results were Yes – 103 (87%) and No – 16 (13%). Compared to the majority of polls on NS, this was a fairly sizeable response, with a very clear result. Are the mods / admin now looking at this idea seriously, with a view to implementing it in the game?

If I may make a suggestion. You could post on the tech board requesting this, with a link to the thread. That way it will get the notice of the tech folks. I personally am against the idea, however that would be the best way I can see of getting the cause at least looked at. I hope this puts to bed for you that even if I don't agree with some thing, I'm still fair and impartial despite my own personal feelings.

Peace,
Stephanie.

...Surely this one person who was flaming was warned...
Nope - the only *warning* I received was a telegram from Stephistan *after* she deleted the *flames* and locked the forum. My presumption is she did this to prevent me from requesting a review of her actions and requesting to know exactly *what* was inflammatory in my posts.

...I find it concerning that the moderator that locked it, Stephistan, was also taking part in the debate...It could lead people to think that this thread was locked, and partially deleted, simply because somebody disagreed with one of the moderators...
In my opinion, this is exactly why these actions were taken. As far as I can tell, this was Stephistan's first action as a forum moderator, and in doing so she demonstrated that she is temperamentally unsuited to be a forum moderator.

To recap, in her last post she stated she knew what I was trying to do; I was to quit following her; and she knew I didn't like her, her actions, and a couple of other things. I found this humorous, because *I* don't know what I'm going to do from minute to minute. I replied that I didn't even *know* her, so how could I dislike her; that despite the number of nations in the UN, the forums were really a small place, and since our interests coincided, we would continue to run into each other. She also reiterated something she does frequently - check her posts if you wish to see for yourself - which is given her background her opinion is worth more than others. So I pointed out the same thing I have done at other times I have run across this from her. Though previously I addressed my comments at large, this time I specifically stated that whenever she started to lose control of a discussion, she drags out her age, education, etc. What I didn't state, was the 8th commandment of flaming:

'8 Tell 'em how smart you are: Why use intelligent arguments to convince them you're smart when all you have to do is tell them? State that you're a member of Mensa or Mega or Dorks of America. Tell them the scores you received on every exam since high school. "I got an 800 on my SATs, LSATs, GREs, MCATs, and I can also spell the word 'premeiotic.'"

So who is the flamer here? Forum etiquette requires that we address our remarks to the topic, not the poster. When Stephistan drags in her background, she inserts herself into the argument, becoming part of it, and makes herself fair game *for any comment I wish to make*!

From the FAQs:

What can't I post?
Any content that is:
· obscene
· illegal
· threatening
· malicious
· defamatory
· spam

I certainly did none of that, but I did point out her tendencies. *That’s* the reason I was accused of flaming, the postings deleted, and the forum locked. Continuing on -

If it makes you feel better, I was considering locking it myself earlier. It had largely deteriorated into flames.
But you didn't, did you? Of course, only you know the reason why, however I like to believe it's because you realized there wasn't anything there to be upset about.

flame n. insulting criticism or remark meant to incite anger

I probably came the closest to doing that with respect to you. Let's look at the sequence in the thread, shall we.
0703AMI would request that this thread be moved to the UN forum please. ...
0706AMSo it was written, so it shall be...
0902PMSo, the Most Glorious Hack is a puppet of Stephistan?? Or is Stephistan perhaps Max Berry (Violet) in mufti? I was under the impression that threads concerning game changes/modifications belonged in the technical area...or is Stephistan currently the defacto ruler of the UN, as well as a self-styled UN expert, controlling everything that mentions it?

Certainly, she has the right to disagree with the intent of the thread, and campaign against it; but, unless I'm missing some major part of the puzzle, she still is not the controller of the forums....
What I saw was cause and effect - you responded to Stephistan's request, and took an action without talking to the originator of the thread, something I consider very wrong, and certainly something not encouraged on any other board I frequent. Regardless, you responded with a reason, with which I disagreed, but you are a moderator, and the originator also responded saying it was immaterial, so I did not reply - it was after all a minor point. The most important part of your response was that it indicated you were *not* a Stephistan clone, though looking back at the timetable, it appears you may have already known she was tapped to be a moderator, and therefore did as she asked because of that.

Unfortunately, she was not satisfied with your response.
...As to where it belongs, well I think it is fair to say that it has been beaten over the head until it is really so dead. There will be no changes to the game so it's pointless in putting it in the tech/mod board. I don't know how many times games changes have been discussed (I can't count that high) and it's always the same answer. No changes what part of this are people having trouble with? ... Fascinating insight, wouldn't you say. Please look at the post immediately above this one, quoted below.
...If I may make a suggestion. You could post on the tech board requesting this, with a link to the thread. That way it will get the notice of the tech folks. I personally am against the idea, however that would be the best way I can see of getting the cause at least looked at....Note that the *solution* is to do that which was originally done - put this in the technical forum! It was there already, removed by Stephistan's desire! Note also that now she's not so positive nothing will ever change. Again, in my opinion, this is why the forum was locked, and I was accused of flaming - Stephistan made an ethical error, as well as a factual one, and rather than just saying "Look, I made a mistake. Let's put it back," she continued on.
...Sorry for being a bit abrupt here, but really Kaolynth, don't you think your accusations are a little harsh and uncalled for?...To this I replied
Not at all. I watch many of the threads, and have monitored your guidance of the United Nations into what *you* perceive it *should* be. I also watched, and commented on, the fact that you barked, and the Most Glorious Hack heeled. I made no accusations, merely comments on what I observed.You got me good with your response, though I admit, I did not expect one from you, since it was Stephistan I was addressing.That. Is. Correct. This. Unit. Is. Incapable. Of. Independant. Thought.I was laughing so hard my wife thought something was wrong! Talk about being slapped up along side the head and reminded of my own unimportance! I loved it! If I had been intending to flame, or flamebait anyone, that would have stopped it cold! Well done. Next came the reply from the third party involved.That would be inaccurate. I have been trying to get people to try and use the NS UN as the real life UN is used. Not my vision of it. However, believe as you like.
Unfortunately, my next post, Stephistan's reply, and my last post have been deleted. I gave my version of what the last two were above; I no longer remember the third one, though I'm certain that it must have been along the lines of disputing that her usage is reality.
So where does that leave us? Quoting from the FAQs again -

"Another player posted something offensive!
People get offended at different things, so first make sure it falls into one of the above categories."

Nothing I did fell into any category above, and other than quoted above, nothing could remotely have been construed as flaming. Even that above was pretty minor, compared to what I have seen unchecked herein. The difference was the person on the other side of my discussion was turned into a moderator, and she promptly abused her authority. ...I hope this puts to bed for you that even if I don't agree with some thing, I'm still fair and impartial despite my own personal feelings...Nope, it puts nothing to bed. While you offered a pre-existing solution, you have not acknowledged your culpability, and your actions to lock the forum topic and delete posts indicates you are refusing to accept responsibility for your actions; rather you are trying to bury them.

As someone said earlier, only Max's belief in the moderators he choses matters in the long run. I do feel he should reconsider his choice of Stephistan. While nothing precludes someone from changing, her actions over several weeks and several forum topics all point to a person incapable of fairly and impartially administering these forums.

In addition, I think that rules should be implemented so no moderator can act as moderator in any discussion in which they participate as a debater. Doing otherwise is a recipe for certain disaster.

Sorry this reply has so long in coming, but the site seems to have had some problems of late.

V/R
StarWalker of Kaolynth

Thankfully Hack seen some of your flaming and I asked you to stop and move on. I would consider this a warning.

This was not my first action as a mod and ironically enough you're the only one that seems to have a problem with me. I tried to stop the thread from turning into a flame. I asked you to stop. You chose not to. That was your decision not mine. I am also a player and am up for fair game *agreed* however, like any player I am protected from being flamed under the rules. You insulted me up the ying yang and enough was enough. Your creative re-dramatization of the actual events are false and I stand by the decision I made.

As far as I'm concerned the subject is closed. However feel free to go to the "getting help" section and report me to the admins if you wish, that is your right. However, keep in mind Hack seen it as well. That is two moderators words against some one who likes to flame.

Also just for the record, if it had been another player then myself that you had flamed in such a manner I would of locked and deleted sooner. I waited so long because it was me it was directed at. So if any thing, I gave you more latitude then I would of normally had it been another player.


Stephanie
Forum Mod.