NationStates Jolt Archive


AMW OOC Background

Dra-pol
06-04-2009, 03:17
Needing to sort out the Hamhung issue in the new AMW, I decided to start a thread to discuss it, but now I'm thinking it could be a wider discussion of AMW history for the sake of newbies and working out what's changed for the rest of us.

To sort out the Korean conflicts, I can't help thinking that it might be beneficial to better define AMW's version of WWII.

For those who don't know, an overview of AMW's original history before the restart, as pertains to Dra-pol:

Ancient Drapoel Choson hermit kingdom invaded by Japan around the turn of the century. Emperor Wiman becomes the first ruler in centuries to lose territory to an invader as much of the coast and the south are occupied by Imperial Japanese Army. Royal army continues to resist periodic expansion of Japanese control through the early C20th, but suffers a succession of defeats in the face of naval gunnery, modern field artillery, machineguns, and later tanks and aircraft.

In the 1930s, a Drapoel soldier adopted the nom de guerre Sulo and took to the central mountains at the head of a band of disaffected royal army troops and began to fight an effective guerrilla war against the IJA. In time, Wiman turned to collaboration in order to save his throne, and so the Suloists turned on him, too. By the time WWII started, a Japanese client state in control of the coasts and much of the south was fighting rebels in the north and central mountains. A Choson People's Republic was proclaimed, but was unable to secure all of its territory before Quinntonian forces landed in the south to liberate it from Japan. Sulo's men didn't take kindly to this, and saw no reason to regard the Republic of Korea as any different to Wiman's collaborationist government, or the USQ as any different to the Empire of Japan, and continued to support rebellion in the south.

During the war, one of Sulo's men, Chao Shih-an, was sent to China to forge alliances against the Japanese. There he picked-up Maoist ideas, and after the war would replace Sulo as Director of the CPRD, adopting the party name Kurosian and enacting a range of political and economic reforms.

In 1950, the CPRD invaded the RoK with the aim of reuniting the nation and driving out new foreign influences, and very nearly succeeded before being driven back from the Busan Perimeter by US and allied naval gunnery and airpower, and forced against the Yalu before Maoist China sent reinforcements and the war stalemated much as in reality.

The CPRD retreated back into isolation for three decades after the conflict, until a civilian ship was sunk in Drapoel waters and the USQ sent an expedition to reestablish contact. The people had been taught that a total global war, starting around the turn of the century, had consumed the outside world in atomic fire, and so the Quinntonians caused great alarm, and the upshot was the Three Day War (or Kurosian's Rage as the Quinntonians remembered it), in which WWII technology went up against the early/mid 1980s US military.

Afterwards, Hamhung and Hungnam were ceded to the US, and the Quinntonians set about converting locals to Christianity. The CPRD had lost -in the south and around Hamhung- most of its productive farmland, and things went from bad to worse in Dra-pol. Kurosian's son (Kurosian II) initiated hardline nationalist Neo-Suloist reforms, and attacked the enclave of Quinntonian Dra-pol in the late 1980s. Over two million Drapoel died in the ensuing conflict, along with the better part of a million Quinntonians and Christian converts. Missionaries inside the CPRD were rounded up and crucified, but in the end, the enclave held. Kurosian II was arrested and handed over to the US in hopes of appeasing them, and Kurosian reassumed power with one Wang Kuo-fang -who earned the party name Hotan- at his side. During the conflict, Wang had lead an army in the field, and captured an airborne division provided by a US ally, only to release it on condition that the nation withdraw from the peninsula.

The Quinntonians then had Kurosian assassinated on a trip to China, and attempted to kill Hotan as well, leaving him badly wounded (though he killed all three of his attackers) but inheriting power in the CPRD.

The CPRD then made a second attempt to reunify the peninsula, invading the RoK for a second time after several years spent building up modern forces. The ROKA was routed in a massive offensive utilising extensive tunnel warfare, and Seoul was captured (or liberated, depending on your point of view), along with other territory as far south as Andong in the east, where Hindustani troops finally put a stop to the advance. Massive bombing on the west coast limited Communist progress to a short distance beyond Seoul. A tactical nuclear strike was launched against a Drapoel Assault Division at some point in the offensive.

Still, the CPRD gained a major victory, significant population, extensive agricultural land, and extensive modern capital. Quinntonian Dra-pol remained safe behind massive defences, Hotan seeing it as a sort of bargaining chip, feeling able to threaten the civilian population with missile and artillery bombardment if the US pushed him too hard in the south.

I think that's basically it.

So, new AMW...

Quinntonia wants out of that history. We don't have a Japan. Spyr has replaced China for all intents and purposes here.

I need a Christian power with the ability and motive to fight a bloody war in Korea and carry out an occupation of the Hamhung region. We can change the scale of it a bit, but it's still a matter of casualties for the attacker far beyond anything like the invasion of Iraq for example.

At the moment my thinking is that Russia makes some sense. As Spyr has pointed out, his nation robs Russia of its ice-free Pacific ports, so maybe Hamhung appealed in that way. It is conceivable that an arrogant Tsar might sacrifice thousands of men to his own ambition and vanity, and the Russian Church might involve itself in an attempt to convert the Drapoel people. It would deal a blow to their Spyrian enemy, too.

I'd need 'em to assassinate Kurosian -perhaps in Spyr- and attempt to kill Hotan -in Dra-pol- as well.

I think, ideally, we would work out a history of WWII, and finally replace Japan, but I'm not sure if there are any suitable contenders at the moment, unless I'm missing someone?

Also, who fights the Korean War on the side of the RoK? Q still prepared to do that much, at least? And what of the second Drapoel invasion of the south? The US could still support the RoK without having Hamhung, I suppose. Who nuked the 100th Assault Division?

Thoughts, please!
Kievskaya Rus
06-04-2009, 05:43
okay, so assuming that historically Kieven Rus did occupy Hamhung, what would the current commitments be? Would I control two cities and that's it? vast amounts of country side? I'm not quite clear on this. What is your current goal aside from maintaining a history you building in the previous incarnation of AMW? Are you looking for a someone to fight?

I'm really hesitant to get involved in this because I see there is an awful lot that went on here that I would be "taking over" for and I don't want to inherit an ongoing war from history. I'd rather say that in 2007 Kiev (like all other major nations) was not at war and any war that might happen will start in 2009 or later.
Dra-pol
06-04-2009, 06:56
Hamhung has an area of 330sq.km, but this pocket is probably a little larger, reaching a useful stretch of coast without which it surely couldn't survive.

Well, my motivation is that years of developing my nation goes out the window if I don't find a solution here, one way or another.

At the moment I hardly feel like contributing because my nation as built over several years of AMW RP has kinda been killed. Some of us don't want to start building IC identities from scratch just because Q does, I suppose.

I'm tempted to give up, to be honest, and am just kinda hoping to find that the soul of Dra-pol and historic AMW has not been emptied. Kinda tempted to break the #?th wall and nuke the USQ a couple of dozen times out of frustration at Q's refusal to take even a minor hit to avert Dra-pol and by extension perhaps one or two others being dumped on.

(If he doesn't want to play the liability of Hamhung anymore, he could yield it diplomatically, or accept the impossibility of defending it militarily and play or record an evacuation, but because he refuses to accept that his nation -even though it's supposed to be more USA-like than the upstanding moral champion it was supposed to be before- would abandon the enclave, instead I have to abandon the core of my national character.)

Sigh. Thinking about this is just off-putting. I'm going for a nap.
Spyr
06-04-2009, 17:57
While Spyr hasn't faced quite the transition problems suffered by the CPRD, its been a bumpy road, and the importance of Spyran-Choson relations means a number of things remain up-in-the-air... if Hamhung is occupied by feudalists, there wont be much change in already-cold attitudes, but British or Quinntonian involvement would likely have killed current PRS policy in the cradle decades ago, and we'd have come to a far different point today. Its been a bit of a struggle to invest much effort in proper RP while aware it might all have to be retconned at a later date.

The issue of Japan throws a wrench in an already difficult situation. When Cobournne was around, we seemed to have solved a number of issues: Japanese imperialism in East Asia (an important backdrop for Dra-pol's modern history, and that of Spyr as well) and the power involved in the Korean Wars key among them. Unfortunately we seem to have lost the fellow, and he left early-enough on that, objectively, its best to drop what he established and leave Japan as a blank slate for new proposals. I'm still holding out hope that we'll find ourselves someone who wants to fill the role, but in the meantime it'll still be hanging about unresolved.
Somewhereistonia
07-04-2009, 02:16
As long as Quinn is ok with it, could someone else not take over exactly his role there to RP a pull out. Alternatively a separation from USQ (eg pullout by Q) could have occurred at x time, leaving an independent Korean nation in the south and the enclave, which can be RP'ed by anyone who wants to take it.

These options mean that your history does not have to be retconned much.
Beddgelert
07-04-2009, 02:25
The thing is, Q (I like that we're calling him that, now, it makes me picture him as John de Lancie even though I know that's not how he looks) has already said that the USQ wouldn't pull out, rather they'd fight to the last, and he can't be bothered to RP that, hence the frustration from the East Asian players directly involved, so the alternate proposal is out unless he changes his mind, I think.

The main point of this thread, I gather, is to find someone to take over his role and then it's up to them whether to stay or pull out.

This reminds me, anyway, that KR and I need to work out exactly where 'Moldova' stands (and even what it's called, as the place is/was populated chiefly by Geletian Celts, not... Moldovans).
Somewhereistonia
07-04-2009, 03:21
The thing is, Q has already said that the USQ wouldn't pull out.

It wouldn't be the first time politics changed, maybe the last president changed foreign policy before King came in. Q just has to give a nod to some simple history to fill in the gap, so it wouldn't be too difficult to do.

I'm kinda liking the idea of a confused Korean state, prepared for war at any moment and a bit bewildered as to why USQ left it... so what do people think?

This reminds me, anyway, that KR and I need to work out exactly where 'Moldova' stands (and even what it's called, as the place is/was populated chiefly by Geletian Celts, not... Moldovans).

Yes, now would be a good time to distract Kiev :p
Kievskaya Rus
12-04-2009, 02:39
Well, we had talked about a year ago and figured out a few things. unfortunetly I don't have the telegrams that I sent BG so I'll have to go from memory here. I believe it worked like this.

Moldova, which goes by the same name in AMW was an independant state under the kieven "sphere of influence" that Bethgelert and cassanos (and east germany?) had been under after WWII. Nations under Kieven influence slowly broke away during the 50's 60's 70's and it finally all came crashing down in the 80's with the BG overthrowing the kieven puppet government and the Baltic States (as well as a bunch of the centreal-asia-istan nations) fight and winning independence. Now, in Moldova the war ended with western Moldova and eastern Moldova being split. The west was part of the the BG revolution and is now a small state under BG influence, the east is a monarchist state under Kieven influence. Neither is directly controlled by either Kiev or BG. Neither side recognizes the legitimacy of the other government and both sides claim the whole nation. So you have the Moldovian democratic republic (communist) and the Principality of Moldova (monarchist).
If that's okay with everyone we'll go with that and the games shall soon begin.
Beddgelert
12-04-2009, 04:37
Moldova

Sounds about right, KR.

I think, based on reality, 'Bessarabia', 'Transnistria', and 'Budjak' (Moldova and part of Ukraine) were part of Geletia until 1940 or so, having changed hands between the Russians and Geletians several times in previous centuries. It was ceded to the Tsar, which becomes significant to the later creation of Beddgelert and its modern power structures. The Triarchy's reason for joining the Axis and invading Kievskaya Rus was chiefly the need to recover territory and pride. Obviously that went tits up when we realised that, hey, there are a lot of these guys :)

If we just assume that the Geletian Regni people replace Moldovans and go with RL population data otherwise, 'Moldova' as a whole has about 3.46 million Geletians from three main tribal groups, and there are over 600,000 Russians and Ukrainians, plus almost 150,000 Gagauz and a hundred thousand or so 'others' for a population of 4,320,748.

The Gagauz I suppose could be replaced if someone else comes along with a history idea, but for now I don't think it matters.

Transnistria has something like 175,000 Celts, 330,000 Russians and Ukrainians, and a couple of tens of thousands of 'others', for something like 530-560,000 people in total.

Presumably this means that over quarter of a million Russians and Ukrainians live in the Communist state, along with a few tens of thousands of 'others', which perhaps explains why it hasn't just been annexed to the BDR.

Actually, those 'others' could well be in reality Hungarians, Serbs, or something else replaced by Geletia, but I'm not really inclined to make them Geletian.

This all means that the Tsarist state is dwarfed by the Communist one, but then KR dwarfs the BDR so perhaps its academic. I assume that heavy industry is concentrated in the Tsarist zone, however, and the People's Republic of the Transprut (that'll do!) is certainly Europe's poorest state... even poorer than RL Moldova. I imagine it stuck in some horrible limbo, still reliant on traditional Geletian technology and culture, much to the likely chagrin of non-Geletian minorities whom probably have been revenged upon quite brutally after years of Tsarist occupation.

Obviously now, though, it is politicised, and keeping it from annexing itself to the BDR is a tricky proposition. It may seem a bit mental, but I'm wondering about having it Strainist. Now, Strainism would likely have the economy moving a bit by now, but a landlocked Strainist state between KR and BG would be struggling to attract investment or receive aid (beyond what arms Akink gives to ward-off Tsarist invasion), and would be perhaps prone to wandering a little from the course advised by Sithin. In order for it to stick to its Strainist guns at all, I suppose there'd have to be a strongman in charge, probably building a personality cult and ranting about Igovian revisionism. Aaand suddenly Moldova becomes AMW's Hoxhaist Albania :D

Oh, KR, I forget if we talked about it or if I just thought about it, heh, but is it acceptable to say that Tsarist lapdog Prince Llewellyn Mapgelert and his court evacuated to Pridnestrovie (eastern Moldova) and perhaps his family holds the crown of the Principality there? I'm hoping to stick with the pre-reboot idea of a dramatic escape from Porthmadog after the surprise Communist offensive of May '82. I'm not asking to control the family, I just like the idea of them not vanishing into thin air.

'Moldova' (AMW name?)
33,843sq.km
4,320,748 people

Principality of Moldova/Pridnestrovie
4,163km2
~550,000 people
Industrialised economy, Geletian minority of ~175,000

The Transprut People's Republic
29,680km2
~3,770,000 people
Primitive rural economy, Russo-Ukrainian minority of ~270,000
Spyr
12-04-2009, 09:43
A Strainist Hoxha?

You've set the poor man turning in his grave.
Beddgelert
12-04-2009, 20:42
Presumably the Great Comrade Colonel Kezo. Might take a bit of time to figure out how he'd run a Strainist economy under externally enforced conditions of near autarky, but I assume, "poorly" comes into it at some point.
Spyr
13-04-2009, 18:19
Step Two in Strainist Economics: Inject the entire population with caffeine so they can work 24-hour shifts making t-shirts for sale to the Quinntonians.

They could almost pull it off, too, but you bloody Geletians never seem to bother wearing shirts.

Oh well. They may be completely impoverished and hemmed in by enemies on all sides, but they'll be getting some pretty darned good cartoons via satellite TV.
Kievskaya Rus
15-04-2009, 07:17
Sure, some descendant of Prince Llewellyn Mapgelert could sit on the throne of the Principality. 550,000 is pretty tiny. Are we assuming Llewellyn took all the money he could and fled, leading to this tiny industrialized state compared to the primitive rural economy next door?
Beddgelert
15-04-2009, 12:39
His court was evacuated in something of a panic, but still he would have taken everything he could, including at least part of his own personal fortune amassed over more than thirty-five years of sitting at the top of a feudal system. Also over the six and a half years of the Geletian Republic in the 1980s, when the Transprut and what his now Beddgelert were probably more closely associated, there were significant problems of emigration from both, partly by ordinary people who finally had a chance to leave the feudal bloc (even though it was over in Geletia, the place was still pretty depressing) and primarily by the old nobility.

Many nobles and those few servants and serfs who remained loyal to them (probably members of Llewellyn's short-lived Geletian Orthodoxy) landed in hot water when the Young Igovians started throwing up the Wicker Wall and attacking émigrés, but not before significant treasures and currency had been shifted abroad. At the very least a lot of church gold and artifacts got out, and if Kyiv is just ambitious enough to turn a blind eye while Llewellyn auctions off holy relics he could at least have paid for the bare bones of an investment-friendly architecture.

I assume that Kyiv has felt that it had an interest in investing in Pridnestrovie in order to make it look better than the Transprut for propaganda purposes at the very least and lead to it being as capable as possible of defending itself.