NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: Any nation, post your observations if you want. You'd be situated in the central group, between the two civilian crowds.

"Good morning, citizens of Perimeter Defense!" The news anchor was excessively enthusiastic; a little too much coffee at six in the morning would be a reasonable explanation. "It's 0644 hours capital time, and we're here at the port of Cyvils to witness the unveiling of the newest naval vessel of our nation, the Mako-class sub. It is, by far, the fastest submarine of its displacement, as we've heard, special thanks to recent advances in supercavitation technology! Visit the website for more details on this here jargon."

6:44 AM produced on the coast of Cyvils, besides this hyperactive news anchor, a great sum of citizens spread over two groups, eager to watch the unveiling of their motherland's massive new nuclear submarine, which also happened to be the speediest ever made. Since Perimetrian citizens could purchase and own any military technology, presumably some of the more "well-off" among the spectators wanted to observe the performance of one of their future toys.

At the moment, only the two Tsukihiko-class carriers, Redemption and Yorktown, were present in the area. The sun hung low over the eastern horizon, the azure sea below it offering countless glittering golden jewels in reflection. It was a clear, cloudless morning with a yellow burn around the sun erupting across a slowly bluing sky. There was a strange, mass solemnity about the crowd, who spoke mostly in quiet tones or just remained silent about the observers' areas on the cliffs over the port, so that from afar only the wash of the sea foam and the placid waves crashing onto shore could be truly perceived.

Between the pair of crowds, down below the cliffs and on the actual port itself, were the official observers of the event. Emissaries from other nations in the region were interspersed with the top brass of the Perimetrian service, as well as the national press and a couple of VIPs who had expressed interest in buying many of the upcoming shark-sub.

"When is it coming?" shouted a civilian over his megaphone. Some behind him raised their arms in agreement, screaming a unified, resounding "Yeah!" to punctuate his question.

As if to answer his question by demonstration, the generally still waters in the distance began to have enacted upon them a curious wash, a consistent, trailing churning that looked like what a surface vessel would make had it been made invisible otherwise. Then, it was realized that this thing was moving faster than anything ever seen on water, that didn't have a rubber skirt or a pair of hulls or foils and jets. As soon as a sufficiently large mass of people had made this realization, a growing whoop spread outward across the crowd, cheering the new arrival on as it outpaced even their expectations. "It must be going at 400 knots!" cried one, who might not even have been exaggerating.

"Sonar detects a really, really loud signature coming our way," reported a loudspeaker from the officials' post, and soon everyone was abuzz with hype, newscasters chattering about and the clicks of cameras as numerous as footsteps on a boot camp's training day.

Soon the "wash" began to slow down to a more mundane speed, before it disappeared altogether. Now, no sign of whatever lay below could be seen, and it was only a matter of waiting now, anticipation and surprise in the ready.

And then, as quickly as it came, the commotion was cut, as though a blade of silence slashed through its throat. Instead, there was the deep rushing of water and parting of the surface as a gigantic shape emerged from the sea, like the great Nautilus of fame or some Atlantis re-emerging like a phoenix from the ashes of the ocean. She glistened and shone in the golden sun, for instead of the dull, grey tone of the military, the demonstrator sub had been painted an awesome white and gold. She burned as an effigy of the Perimeter Defense spirit, inspiring fire with fire and light with light.

But despite her beauty, no one denied Athena's might in combat. Thus the glorious, resplendent, and threatening Mako rose from the seas, a 255-meter leviathan in the sunrise, bristling with exposed surface missile pods and trio of experimental lasers, as her torpedo tubes opened for all of Cyvils to see.

"Ain't she a beaut?" an admiral said to his Havenic companion.

"Yes, yes she is," came the honest reply.

"But the testing's gonna come in a while. Let's save our drool for then."

The news anchor came alive again on-camera. "There we have it, readers - our first glimpse of the newest in the Perimetrian navy! We're going to cover the performance demonstrations soon, so stay tuned to BQSN. Kendra?"

You're making a 255m sub go 400 knots and think it's MT? My friend, I have some prime beach front property in Las Vegas to sell you.

OOC: No, actually it's about 170 knots. The performance demos will show that, much to many's disappoinment.

Congrats, you've been downgraded to a bridge in the Sahara.

ooc that one long ballistic missiles sub

OOC: Well, involvement...

"Yndras, I really don't think that a quarter-kilometre sub can go at such a high speed..." muttered the officer as he watched the screen, and his comrade replied, muttering, "We're not on stalking duty. As long as we're not on stalking duty, I'm fine." to which he was laughed at by about seven passer-bys.

"You have to admit though, getting run over by a nice car like that wouldn't be a bad way to die."

"I'm sure..."

lol thats a little big to be going 250 knots water pressure alone on a sub that size going that fast would almost definitely crush it.

OOC: What water pressure? ^_^ Supercavitation FTW. I'm sleepy. Will post later...

Editing to amend OOC: Okay looked at the article on super cavitation.

The example it gives is a torpedo - and those aren't very large and uses a rocket engine? I have extreme reservations about applying it to something even the size of an attack submarine. Getting a large sub up to over 100 mph while submerged is impossible I fully believe ( via available MT, or even middle level PMT ) - but any one with the naval architecture, engineering and physics background is welcome to disprove me...


IC:

"Rob have you heard the claims being made by Perimeter Defense, concerning their new submarine?" Morgan Kincanon asked the Archon, as he changed clips on his Diablo (http://www.atddm.com/hmsdiablo.jpg).

"No I read them, but I am sure our SOSUS network heard them, noisy bugger, and size wise? Highly impractical." Robert Ryan Fortier ~ Hexx just shook his head and and put another clip down range. Even the Archon was not above the law and he truly enjoyed his infrequent range time. He recalled the target and smiled slightly, satisfied with his scores. "Now any other amusing claims we need to discuss?"

OOC: You're pretty much right, Tanaara. A ship this size would have to be nuke powered, which removes the exhaust gasses that the Russian Shavkal uses to form a big enough bubble. Also, the turbulence of the bubble would render anything in it blind and pretty much unable to steer (the guided version of Shakval is believed to actually stop supercav'ing once it needs to actively home, IIRC).

((OOC: Supercavitation = Loud as all hell to sonar, etc. There'd be almost no way for that to avoid detection. Therefore, your sub's speed would be useless, if it was even possible. Furthermore, to avoid water pressure crushing a sub that size, it'd have to be constantly moving to keep supercavitation going.))

OOC: the members of avalanche will never allow you to exploit our planets resources!! FOR GAIA! . . .oh wait . . .wrong mako. . .my bad.

OOC: First of all, I'd like to apologize for a massive unit misconversion here. I accidentally switched kph and mph in my converting bits for knots, resulting in a submarine that travels at 480kph. Edits yield the Mako's correct speed as 170 knots; note that the US Navy is seeking a 100-knot submarine based on this technology.

Secondly, I am fully aware of the disadvantages of supercavitation; not all unveilings are to be well-received, and this post will detail the various limitations of the technology, as well as its actual specific uses.

Finally, it's only a matter of time before I condense enough Spirit Energy from the Lifestream to reinstate JENOVA into this world, and all you foolish mortals shall witness Mother's true power before you burn and die.

IC:

Between the Mako's appearance and 0745, there was naturally a lot of picture-taking. Aside from being the newest in the PD Navy, it was rare to see a demonstrator made so pretty.

Much note was taken on some of the sub's more unusual features. One of these was the strange nose; while most forms tapered to a rounded point, the Mako's nose was a flattened nozzle with some kind of little hole on the tip. Also of note were the experimental laser turrets, which quite notably didn't actually work yet.

Most of these aesthetic considerations were discarded though when the time for the actual demo arrived. There was little in the way of announcement; the sub simply sank back into the water and made a slow turn to face the sea again.

"So what we got here," Admiral Cassidy Lansing, a PD seaman and one of the "tour guides" of the day, said, "is a ballistics submarine with the ability to hit speeds of up to 170 knots. This is achieved through supercavitation, which is basically the creation of a low-pressure field of vapor bubbles through which the submarine can travel. The result is massively reduced drag, and we all know how good that is.

"Now we got a few caveats to this. The bubble field will surround the entire ship; it's noisy as hell, so you'll essentially be blind - deaf if you're going to be all precise about it. Two, since you're not really having that much contact with the water, steering's going to be a real bitch. For watchers of Star Trek, consider the bubble field to be a warp field, and this supercav to be a warp drive. You use it to transit or make a quick getaway, then decav and enter the water normally."

"Question, Miss Lansing?" one viewer asked.

"Yes, sir?"

"Won't this thing be heard halfway across the ocean?"

"That's right, it will. You'll be a singing humpback whale all the way to your destination."

"Then what's the point of the submarine?"

"It's not like you're forced to use the drive all the time. In fact, you can't - that's another thing. The Mako's supercavitation drive uses rocket thrust, just like the Russian Shkval torpedo, which means fuel separate from the nuclear reactor. While the naval reactors need refueling only once every thirteen years given regular use, the supercavitation drive will expire after...well, why don't we find out later on? Anyway, the drive is included in the Mako as an option over the regular method, not a replacement."

"Ah, I understand. Thank you."

The Mako was now a fair distance away from shore, and turned to point horizontally to the north, at which point it began to move - low and slow at first, then at some point the bubbles began appearing on the surface again, which coincided with great acceleration.

"Just broke sixty knots," the loudspeaker relayed. "Imposing 150-knot speed limit for this demonstration."

Lansing continued. "If you're trapped, but you got a wide open sea ahead of you with no enemy vessels to drop mines in your path, you can rapidly switch to your 'warp drive' and break pursuit. Now unless they got surface-breaking ASMs or supercav torps, you're likely to have a Roadrunner versus Coyote scenario - except they can't get ahead of you to lay any trap."

Commonwealth Maritime Defense Directorate
Greer Hill, Meridian City, CFUS

Fleet Admiral Yvgenni Padorin, Chief of Staff for the Maritime Forces, sat in the latest defense briefing. The presenter, a Commander from naval intelligence, was showing live-feed of the Mako, a monstrous vessel that seemed as improbable as it looked fanciful.

"The Shkval...?"

"More like, the bastard love-child of a Shkval and an aircraft carrier," said Rear Admiral Chernyenko, Padorin's Vice-chief mentioned.

"At the time, our analysts feel it is not a major threat to Commonwealth fleet activities, nor would it be an effective offensive platform against the Commonwealth," the intelligence commander answered.

"Our bomber forces are more than capable of outrunning this gangly thing," replied Captain Yurito said.

"Okay then," the intelligence officer continued, "Our next item is from Greal. Now as you know..."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/jedierrant/Makoseal.gif

The Catawaban Navy
An Official Communication from the Artificial Senient commanding and crewing the CNS Mako
For the Consideration of Admiral Cassidy Lansing of the Perimeter Defense Maritime Forces
Concerning the Perimeter Defensive Mako-class submarine

My dear Admiral,

I am considered by the Catawaban Navy to be a "Submarine, Artificially Sentient" or SAS, and thus one of the foremost experts in my country on the notions and tactics of submarine warfare, the others being my siblings, the other five SASes, and submarines for that matter, in Catawaban service. Putting aside the offense your class does to my name, I'm entirely boggled...well...to the point that my sister, the CNS Silky, put it best, "Why the HELL would ya want a pigboat that goes like a bat out of hell and TELLS everyone where she's goin' while bein' confined to mostly straight course?"

Why, indeed, Admiral? 'Surface breaking' Anti-submarine missiles, well to be precise, rockets already exist. ASROC and Ikara are prime examples on the open market. Catawaban ships, such as I, are armed with BASASRAT or Boosted Anti-Ship Anti-Submarine Rocket Assisted Torpedoes which have greater range than ASROC and Ikara. Besides ships, you would also have to worry about Anti-sub helos and patrol aircraft. Even the decrepit Orion could out run you and put a torpedo out ahead of you.

Adding nitro to a dragster might be cool, but it won't outrun the bullet of the cop in pursuit. You have very much the same case with supercavitating a submarine of that scale. A small Unmanned Underwater Vessel? Go right ahead. By giving up the most vital survival strategy of a submarine, take it from a combat veteran submarine, you will only put billions of national treasure, hundreds of lives, perhaps just one unfortunate AI at severe and deadly risk for some engineer's obssesion with the Fast and the Furious.

From the heart under the sea to the surface,

CNS Mako
Master and Commander

Open Letter to the Designers of the Mako-class Submarine

Dear sirs,

Whilst it is always good to see enthusiasm and innovation applied to naval design, we at the President's Institute for Naval Design At Alexandria have united to write you this letter in the spirit of concern. To wit, whilst getting so large a vessel to supercavitate would be a large technical achievement on its own - albeit one which, in the unanimous view of the members of the Institute, would carry unacceptable risks for both vessel and crew if attempted with present technology - we also wish to point out the military futility of such a task, in hopes that the testing will be delayed or at least carried out with a minimum of danger to the crew and personnel.

The main point we wish to make is a tactical one; the reason submarines exist is to gain the advantage of stealth. It is self-evidently true that the only possible reason to build a submersible warship rather than a surface vessel is to maintain stealth against possible opponents - making a vessel submersible not only possesses no other inherent advantages in e.g. robustness in the face of damage, or positive amount of weaponry carried, or even cost: in fact the opposite is true, and submarines are vastly more fragile, less well-armed, and more expensive than surface warships on a relative level. Furthermore a submarine captain accepts great tactical limitations when submerged; being cut off from the world of electromagnetic information gathering, and tactically unable to network and share information with other friendly vessels due to the effects of depth on radio. All this is given up in return for stealth. No other class of vessel sacrifices so much in hopes of remaining undetected. What is broadly true for naval warfare in general is a hundred times more true for a submarine: detection means destruction, successfully achieving surprise means victory. It is for this reason that submarines in combat zones will attempt to avoid traveling at maximum speed, and often will not break even a half or a third of their sprint speed. Noise increases exponentially with speed, and a detected submarine is a surface task force's - or another submarine's - first priority to kill.

With this information in mind, not only can we see that supercavitating speeds would not be useful, but that they would be actively detrimental to the role of a submarine. A vessel of such size supercavitating at a hundred and seventy knots would be detectable across the width of oceans.

Having examined the detrimental effects of speed on sound - the major tactical problem - it is nonetheless still necessary to examine remaining tactical problems, as well as technical and safety issues for a vessel traveling underwater at such speed.

Fragility of Submarines

Although a submarine's hull must be extremely strong to deal with crushing sea pressure at depth, this strength should not be taken for imperviousness to damage. Indeed the opposite is true; the structural strength of a submarine's hull is extremely dependent on geometry, the arrangement of the hull in self-reinforcing patterns where pressure is uniformly spread is critical, and this is one reason that submarines are far more sensitive to damage than surface vessels. Weaknesses in the hull of a vessel designed to operate at such depths are highly undesirable.

The extreme vibration of a very large vessel - such as the 255m Mako - supercavitating at 170 knots is almost certain to cause cracks and stresses in the structure of the vessel which openly invite the future loss of the vessel during a deep-ocean operation.

Navigation

Whilst supercavitating the vessel, in addition to making its presence obvious to all listeners in a great radius, will also be completely blind itself both with respect to detecting other vessels and also to navigation. Inertial navigation would be the only possible means for those aboard to estimate their own position when supercavitating, and at such speeds some uncertainty would be unavoidable - essentially leaving the vessel in a position of surrendering some control over its own course and position.

Countermeasures

While the survivability of a detected submarine does, as discussed, plunge dramatically, supercavitating would prevent the vessel gaining any use from even the last-ditch countermeasures commonly employed by a submarine attempting to avoid incoming weapons. Indeed the vessel would probably lack even the critical awareness of its being under attack and would certainly be unable to fire any of its own arsenal.

Tactical Role

Finally the members of the Institute are united in seeing no worthwhile benefit to such high speed specifically in a ballistic missile submarine, which is essentially designed to hide until needed and, if it becomes necessary ever to release the arsenal, to attack faraway land targets which, being immobile and distant, should not need to be outmaneuvered.

Kind regards,

Director Nikolaos Konstantinos
on behalf of the Membership,
President's Institute for Naval Design and Development at Alexandria.

ooc: In addition to the Director's commentary I would like to add my own observation: in no way is this MT. The US Navy project which you referenced is as far as I know a) still speculative, i.e. has not achieved a credible demonstration of concept b) designed as a ~50-60 ton displacement special operations boat, essentially a slightly larger human torpedo, rather than a bloody ballistic missile submarine with a hundred times the tonnage and a thousand times the technical problems and c) just gonna mention the size difference one more time here. The US Navy is speculating on whether a 60 ton special operations boat would be even possible. This is a ballistic missile submarine about 45% longer than the largest submarine in history.
I will also not comment, beyond just mentioning them, on the existence of exterior missile pods and laser batteries on a vessel in which streamlining would be paramount.