NationStates Jolt Archive

No Flash In The Pan!

A Modern World (AMW) is a Role Playing group born some... er, I forget, but a good four or five years ago, and active ever since. It is not simply Earth: Modern or some such spin-off of Nationstates so much as one independent player controlled component of the NS RP experience (of course, as any other, still bound by the rules and moderations of NS and Jolt).

We have a core of players who have been around since the start, such as founders Dra-pol and Quinntonia (who, confusingly, still sometimes posts as Quinntonian Dra-pol, though that doesn't exist anymore: stop it, Q!), plus Spyr, Beddgelert/Beth Gellert, Lunatic Retard Robots/The Crooked Beat, and the likes of AMW China, Gurguvungunit, and others, who've also been around for years, or left us only to find that, when it comes to AMW, you can run, but you can't hide!

We want new players to add their RP identities to this community, which rose out of the frustrations of a war between Dra-pol and Quinntonia (which involved others as well) in which limitless Quinntonian firepower was met with ever-replenishing Drapoel manpower. As such, AMW was born as a place for Nationstates countries, not as another alternate history game. In time, some players have joined us while basing their nations upon real ones, existing or historic, but in these cases this is how they would play their accounts in any case, and is not just some sideshow to their NS nation. Basically, we just want a little commitment in terms of both the RP development of your claim and the length of time you'll remain an active member. This isn't to say that we expect you here 24/7 (Jebus knows most of us drop in and out enough) merely that you shouldn't apply if you're likely to get bored and move on two months from now, as is the norm on most off-site alternate-earth RPs.

In short, we've been here for years, and only want members who want a place for a nation to which they're committed.

Well, thanks for taking an interest, and welcome to A Modern World!

LINKS

In this thread

Main Rules (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14470565&postcount=2)

Members (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14470568&postcount=3)

Maps (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14470570&postcount=4)

Claims under review (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14470572&postcount=5)

Current AMW RPs and other threads

Asia

Tamil Tango (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=569071)
A corvette belonging to the Dominion of Walmington is sunk by the Sea Tigers after wandering into restricted Tamil waters, inciting a violent response from fellow Commonwealth nation India

Hong Kong Film Festival (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=576766)
Open to international submissions

Europe

Ad Astra (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=576485)
Communist Beddgelert's response to an increase in British ambitions flags the start of a new mini space-race

The Geletian Spring (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=566872)
A history of the February Revolution in Communist Beddgelert in 1989

World Royal Conference (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=575533)
Monarchs converge upon Versailles

Africa

The Soil of Africa (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=562766)
Authoritarian Socialism clashes with the 1st world in West Africa

MAIN RULES

Geography: AMW uses the real world as a geographic template. Claims are placed on real territory and adopt the approximate dimensions, natural resources and hazards, as well as the general climate of the territory they cover.

Population: Also based on the world map, populations for each claim are based on the real-world population of the territory they cover. Simply for argument's sake we use the CIA factbook as a reference when whole national entities are consumed by a claim, though other sources must be found when claims cover less than the complete territory of a real nation or other listed entity (you may want to claim only part of a nation, or parts of more than one). Granted, the CIA are usually wrong about most things, but the data is good enough for our purposes, and if this rule is remembered there is less scope for argument.

Economy: This is not based upon the territory consumed by a claim, but is free-form within reason. We can't all be superpowers, and the wealth and size of new nations must be decided with consideration of the facts of the existance of such states as the United States of Quinntonia, the People's Republic of Spyr, and the British, Roman, and Russian Empires, not to mention the Germany-Cassanos bloc and the British-aligned Dominion of China. This doesn't mean that the old-guard players have all taken the positions of leading powers and now seek whipping boys: co-founder Dra-pol has a US$2,500 per capita GDP in PPP terms, Beddgelert is significantly smaller than its two current neighbours -both run by newer players- and poorer than one of them, and LRR/TCB's nation doesn't even cover all of Sri Lanka.

Technology: As the name suggests, this is modern tech. If you want to use a technology, and there isn't already a direct equivalent in production and active use today (or in the past) in the real world, it's not suitable. Earlier in AMW we had variable throttle hyper agile air-to-air missiles because humanity knows how to make them and is working on it right now, but then there were arguments about whether that made electro-thermal chemical guns allowable, and so on and so forth. Personally I take the view that if these things were actually in regular use in reality, we'd already have clear ideas on how to counter them, and wouldn't have to theorise and argue about possibilities. This ruling keeps things from snowballing and putting-off those of us without time of inclination to spend hours on end reading technology journals et cetera when we'd rather be RPing. You can still design your own weapons, and some of us do, they just have to be confined by the bounds of modern in-service technologies.

Forums: We do most of our RPing here on Jolt. We have a Nationstates region (A Modern World), but you don't have to join it to be accepted into the RPing community. We have an offsite forum (link) (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?), though this is in a large part OOC, involving general chat between members and about RP ideas, as well as a back-up and easy reference centre for factbooks and such. Again, if you really don't want to bother joining more off-site forums, it's not obligatory, merely suggested. I usually just drop by as a guest, to see if I'm missing anything.

Claiming!!!: We ask that players wishing to join AMW either share with us some links to examples of their past Role-Playing experience, or accept that we'll want a more detailed introduction to their nation and perhaps a sample of what they'll be RPing with it. Thanks!

Notes on claims: You may notice when you come to read the below list that I have two claims, Dra-pol in Asia and Walmington on Sea, in Europe, while Beth Gellert/Beddgelert controls the Beddgelen Democratic Republic in Europe, and the Igovian Soviet Commonwealth of Tamil Eelam in Asia. This isn't the norm, but in both cases the secondary claim is of insignificant power internationally and exists as little more than an RP device approved by the community. Germany-Cassanos is another odd case, but it was all part of his original claim, and the community approved. I doubt that many new multiple claims would be approved without the claimant having first established a significant history in AMW, which I think you'll agree is reasonable enough.
You may also notice that some claims are quite large, and perhaps this is because we've got a whole globe and only so many players, so we don't mind a few really big nations hanging about. On the other hand, China has already been chopped up a fair bit by AMW China and Spyr, and most of it is still up for grabs, and countries as small as Sri Lanka have been cut in two. Whether you see your nation as a tiny tropical paradise(/hell-hole) or a sprawling desert empire, we've still space for you.

MEMBERS
With Factbook Links
And geographic reference

Dra-pol (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=dra-pol)
The Choson People's Republic of Dra-pol (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=545140)
Most of Korea

Walmington on Sea (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=walmington_on_sea)
The Dominion of Walmington (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=567669)
Isle of Wight

Quinntonia (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=quinntonia)
The United States of Quinntonia (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=103)
USA, Canada

Beth Gellert (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=beth_gellert) / Beddgelert (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=beddgelert)
The Beddgelen Democratic Republic (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=560872) / The Igovian Soviet Commonwealth of Tamil Eelam (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=102)
Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Albania; Moldova disputed with Kievskaya Rus
Northern Sri Lanka

Spyr (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=spyr)
The People's Republic of Spyr (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=12)
Northeastern China, Southern Pacific-Russia

Lunatic Retard Robots (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=lunatic_retard_robots) / The Crooked Beat (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=the_crooked_beat)
Republic of Ceylon (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=101)
Southern and mid Sri Lanka

AMW China (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=amw_china)
The Dominion of China (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=92)
Fujian, Guangzhou, Guangxi, Hainan, Hong Kong, Macau

Gurguvungunit (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=gurguvungunit)
The United Kingdom of Britain and Empire (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=4)
UK, Ireland, Egypt, Sudan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore

Vecron (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=vecron)
Roman Empire (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=99)
Italy, France, Spain, Greece

Cassanos (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=cassanos)
Cassanos (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=74) / Germany (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=107)
Poland, Germany

Kievskaya Rus (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=kievskaya_rus)
Kieven Rus' (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=100)
Most of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus; Moldova disputed with Beddgelert

Talost (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=talost)
United Socialist African Republics (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=94)
Liberia, Sierra Leone

Bungussi-Djanvallaland (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=bungussi-djanvallaland)

Equatorial Guinea, Republic of Congo, Gabon

[url=http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=the_united_taifas]The United Taifas (]Bungussi & Djanvallaland (factbook pending)[/url)
The United Taifas of Al'Andalus (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=574332)
Portugal

Spizania (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=spizania)

India

[url=http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=cotland]Cotland (]India (factbook pending)[/url)
Scandinavia (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=110)
Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland

AMW Ethiopia (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=amw_ethiopia)
Ethiopia (http://www.nswiki.net/index.php?title=AMW_Ethiopia)
Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia

Somewhereistonia (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=somewhereistonia)
The Baltic Federation (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=145)
Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia

Christstan (http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=christstan)

Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco + ?

[url=http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=maxen_von_bismarck]Moorington (]Factbook pendind[/url)

Coastal areas of Namibia and Angola

[url=http://www.nationstates.net/page=display_nation/nation=nova_gaul]Nova Gaul (]Factbook pending[/url)
El Reino de Nueva España (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=109)
Mexico, Haiti, Dominican Republic
Note- absent, claim on hold in the short-term, but interesting claims may be considered.

MAPS

We have a world map, courtesy of Gurg (as we like to call him), BG has provided a Euro-centric one, and, because it seemed easy at this stage, I've stuck an African one in there at the last moment. We expect other regions to be covered in turn. Gurg's map is pretty, but don't rely on it -or the others- without noticing that in some cases he has redrawn national borders to suit existing claims, though they may not yet be coloured, and always this thread's listing ought to be taken as the up-to-date consensus on membership.

Note- Areas shaded grey represent new bids under review, and not yet accepted claims.

Africa
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/outline_africa-1.jpg

Europe

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/europe-1.jpg

Asia
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/asianewamw.jpg

World
Link to Gurg's map (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c95/Spoat/AMW/AMW20map_9.png)

Link to Spyr's version (http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/jsstrn/NationStates/amw-world-map-v10.png)

NEW CLAIMS AND REVISIONS PRESENTLY UNDER CONSIDERATION

Noval Gaul and how long we are to hold on for him. For now I suppose at least we wait until someone applies for territory in Mexico or Hispaniola, and deal with it then. Presently we're not exactly playing sardines, here, but if anyone has more information on NG than I do, speak up!

Beddgelert is contemplating a bid for the expansion of the BDR to incorporate some west Balkan territory, "to enable the world's most vocal revolutionary state to more easily involve itself in (meddle with) world affairs, and explain why Rome and Kyiv are yet to crush the vastly weaker Democratic Republic. I'm thinking Serbia (incl. Kosovo), Macedonia, and Albania, so that the remaining Balkan states are still connected to unclaimed Central European states, leaving room for another good-sized nation if somebody wants such. Pop. would still be below that of the UK alone, but I'd get easier access to the high seas, and have the manpower to dissuade or at least contest an Imperial invasion while still... doing stuff, which the Geletians really need to do!". So, any thoughts on that?

Trostia and AMW Ethiopia were listed on Gurg's old thread as not yet active. I'm not sure if either remains interested.

The Korean enclave remains a complicated matter since Q's decision to quit that particular storyline. Dra-pol needs the Christian invader, or so much of the nation simply doesn't make sense, and my relations with other nations, such as Spyr, are shaped by the history tied to Hamhung's annexation. I had asked Vecron to step in, but he didn't seem totally taken with the importance of the Christian angle, and it is rather a long way from home for the Romans. Spyr, deliberately or not, has put into my head the idea of Kyiv taking over. With the presence of the PRS, Rus lacks much of its icefree Pacific access, and I have less trouble believing the waging of a bloody war on the Korean peninsula by Russian forces than Roman. I would suggest perhaps that the campaign, for a good Pacific naval base, was framed by the Tsar as a Crusade, for the benefit of the men who had to fight and die in it. Anyway, KR has indicated that he'll be along to discuss it in the not too distant future, but anyone else's input is welcome.

Er, what else?

[Added some links. Up we go!]

Hello potential players! If you're considering placing your nation here, let me personally suggest choosing a plot in either central Europe or somewhere in Africa. Probably our most active regions, for sure. Of course, I'm a bit biased, since I'm that brown, turd-shaped country in West Africa :P . Oh, and if you do end up making a claim, keep in mind that small countries are more than welcome. I've only a few million people but still manage plenty of depth.

[Asia map added, plus a few other minor alterations]

Trostia and AMW Ethiopia were listed on Gurg's old thread as not yet active. I'm not sure if either remains interested.



I sorta am, sort amn't.

I posted this just now in another (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14479787&postcount=26) thread:

AMW has an interesting bunch of players and is a good concept, but the detailed, military realism involved feels limiting. I like a good deal more wackiness to really enjoy it. Like instead of that plausible Brazil proposal... maybe a diehard, stereotypical, hardline Communist Brazil. With an insane dictator. Fun ensues!

That is to say I would like to be able to do something kinda off the wall like that without running the inevitability of military-sim kinda conflict which sometimes interests me (in the same way that obsessive-compulsiveness interests me) but most of the time is anti-inspiring personally. Is that acceptable in AMW? Not to say "We executed 5 million people today" and then expect no consequences. But in some cases (coughEE) every little thing runs the risk of setting off a war with alliances jumping in just because it's the most entertaining thing ever and dogpiling is a natural way to achieve victory. Forces me to play rationally. And I hate that!

Well, yes and no. It depends on how important a nation you are, and honestly Brazil is going to be a bit more limiting than Talost's USAR, for example. Brazil as you claimed it was, as I recall, a somewhat rich if unreconstructed Stalinist nation with plenty of mineral wealth, so you can't get away with going completely nuts because you going completely nuts might be unacceptable to one of the power blocs. Sort of like how Zimbabwe can get away with being an absolute psychotic hellhole, but Iran gets nasty looks when it does something even remotely similar.

This is not to say that you can't go completely nuts without having Quinn, me or Vec declare war on you... honestly for my part you'd have to attack British/NATO ships, aircraft or possessions for me to do more than condemn you and do business with your black market.

I sorta am, sort amn't.

I posted this just now in another (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14479787&postcount=26) thread:

AMW has an interesting bunch of players and is a good concept, but the detailed, military realism involved feels limiting. I like a good deal more wackiness to really enjoy it. Like instead of that plausible Brazil proposal... maybe a diehard, stereotypical, hardline Communist Brazil. With an insane dictator. Fun ensues!

That is to say I would like to be able to do something kinda off the wall like that without running the inevitability of military-sim kinda conflict which sometimes interests me (in the same way that obsessive-compulsiveness interests me) but most of the time is anti-inspiring personally. Is that acceptable in AMW? Not to say "We executed 5 million people today" and then expect no consequences. But in some cases (coughEE) every little thing runs the risk of setting off a war with alliances jumping in just because it's the most entertaining thing ever and dogpiling is a natural way to achieve victory. Forces me to play rationally. And I hate that!

Ah, well! I certainly think there's room for some wackiness. The modern world can be a pretty wacky place. I think Talost is about to hit us with the probably camp-OTT AMW equivalent to General Butt Naked; Walmington's 140,000 population supports a complete Admiralty dedicated to protecting fish from the Scandinavians, tea from the Communists, and perhaps yet cricket from the Americans.

On how we fight wars, well, we had the Drapoel wars, in which people were being quite literally crucified in their thousands and Drapoel tactics ranged from using Hapkido and a letter-opener against gun-toting fundamentalist Christian assassins to moving divisions through the subway then giving it the ol' Banzai Charge against US firebases. Quinntonian tactics included the typical hiding in base and pointing big guns at the Injun country beyond the fence, and sending a big dude with tattoos to beat the other side's head of state to death in a Chinese hotel bathroom.

Oh, and the Lavragerian War, in which France and the Estenlands got away with fire-bombing European cities, and the Lavragerians fought back with horse-mobile infantry and plucky soundbites.

So, er, yeah, if anything so far countries have been almost frustratingly unwilling to intercede against other people's horrific abuses. LRR/TCB would normally have tried to stand up for the victims of tyranny, but since he has less than twenty million people and a middle income economy, there's less scope for that kinda do-gooding, now ;)* We don't really have a lot of big cohesive power-blocs.



*Well, I would have gotten away with the drive to Busan, second time around, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids!

Ah, here we are.

Yes, I suppose Gurg has a point, there. There'd be more concern about the behaviour of the lord and master of a hundred and ninety million Brazilians with all their resources and agricultural potential than about the ravings of the panda-costumed, ballet-loving, tree-banning God-King of Suriname. On the other hand, perhaps the Brazilian dude would be harder to knock over with a quick airstrike.

Still, we've already had a guy who made decisions on matters of state based upon the condition of his pet hippo's teeth, so I don't think AMW can usually be accused of taking things too seriously!

Is there anything in particular about the way that you think we do things that's putting you off, Trost?

Anyway, on my claim's possible expansion... yes, I thought that perhaps adding Serbia, Macedonia, and Albania would work nicely, pushing the population up to about 55.28 million and the economy to around US$1.1 trillion in PPP terms, which would in reality make it about the 15th largest economy on earth, between South Korea and Indonesia, and the 24th largest by population between Italy and South Africa (by CIA estimates, anyway). This is in no small part because I want to kick off a mini Cold War with Gurg, as briefly discussed with him, and don't think that a country the size of Poland with an economy smaller than Australia's could really be taken seriously against the British Empire of which Australia is just one piece.
So, er, does anyone mind, terribly?
Oh, you may have noticed that I'm basing a lot of Beddgelen military tech on Hungarian, Romanian, and Bulgarian systems... I think I'd leave Serbian and Yugoslav stuff out of it, at least for now, incase someone else comes along and wants to use it as a base, since some of it is rather interesting.

Ah, and I fixed the Africa map by the way. Somebody was obviously working from an uber-old AMW map in which Al Khals initially screwed with Tanzania's Mozambiquan border ;)

I was proposing to Gurg to have some sort of Princely State attempted revolution or somesuch, that seem like a good idea to you?

*wilts a bit at the list* (aka, where am I?)

To be honest, I'd be rather disappointed to see the expansion of the BDR and the creation of a 'cold war' scenario between revolutionary leftists and Western capitalists. One of the appealing elements of past 'reset' was that, though it meant we lost a bit in the transition, we ended up with a world that wasn't just reality-with-a-few-odd-bits-and-an-extra-peninsula. Elements like the failure of the Bolshevik revolution, Feudalism and Democracy replacing Communism and Capitalism as core Cold War ideologies, Japanese conditional surrender and avoidance of the atomic bomb at the end of the Pacific War, the relative lack of cascading independence movements which dismantled the British Empire... all conspired to create a truly unique dynamic. The relationships between political groups, the events which inspired and directed the formation of various ideologies, even cultural trends will have developed differently from those in reality, and that makes things very interesting indeed, a true expression of our unique states rather than 'Earth Umpteen-Sixty-Three'.

But, disappointment aside, an expansion of the BDR might help explain the current state of the AMW world... in the various roleplay threads that have been plodding along since the reset, one can see the underlying assumptions born of our reality rather than that of AMW. Hard to avoid that sort of thing, after all... the weight of history has an undeniable influence on one's viewpoint, and is far more likely to inspire an idea for a story or character than is a separate and rather alien set of fictional circumstances. A larger BDR, determined to radicalize the leftist world against both sides of a Cold War undergoing its denouement, would certainly help explain (at least in my mind) how things have ended up the way they have overall.

----

As for realism, I always found hippo-advised rule in Central Asia to be at least as plausible as a North American population made up of 99% devout Christians... in reality, one need only look to Niyazov or even Ceausescu to see that a leader can hold on to power for a surprising length of time despite increasing eccentricity.

Hm, good points as ever.

Heh, if anything the pressure may be on Trostia to sustain originality in his proposed leader's madness in a world that's already had... all of AMW's headcases :)

If it helps, Spyr, the nature of the cold war between Britain and Beddgelert is shaping up to be coloured primarily in Pan-Celticism or at least Celtic Nationalism. Akink won't be calling for the creation of a Manchester Commune or something, but for the creation of Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Manx, and Cornish national Communist parties with military wings and independence their stated aim.

Similarly, the initially more politically/economically ideological Tamil revolution will be taking a more nationalistic and arguably racist agenda as it tries -in the wake of Indian air raids- to push for the creation of a Tamil Nadu Soviet State as part of a wider Igovian Soviet Tamil Commonwealth.

So, yeah, Spiz... it's safe to assume that the LTTE is now sinking most of its defence budget into smuggling arms and advisors across the Tamil/Palk Strait and sponsoring a Liberation Tigers of Tamil Nadu movement, the (un)popularity of which of course I shall have to leave up to you. There won't be any interest in supporting a princely state unless it happens to have a strong Tamil identity and be substantially stronger than any Igovian-Communist tainted Tamil movement. That is, unless perhaps it proves to be a handy distraction for the authorities, in which case it'd get secondary support from Trincomalee.

Guptas... good to see you're still with us. Er, where were you? Burma? Or was it Bangladesh?

Ah, here we are.

Yes, I suppose Gurg has a point, there. There'd be more concern about the behaviour of the lord and master of a hundred and ninety million Brazilians with all their resources and agricultural potential than about the ravings of the panda-costumed, ballet-loving, tree-banning God-King of Suriname. On the other hand, perhaps the Brazilian dude would be harder to knock over with a quick airstrike.

Still, we've already had a guy who made decisions on matters of state based upon the condition of his pet hippo's teeth, so I don't think AMW can usually be accused of taking things too seriously!

Is there anything in particular about the way that you think we do things that's putting you off, Trost?


Hmm, no not really I guess. I suppose my main concern was that when RPing some craziness I might be forced by same to get involved with a war RP which I'm not terribly interested in. Brazil being powerful as it is, as Gurguvungunit, probably is only thing making this difficult. And hell, being original.

But I think I'll manage. *goes to see about a factbook*

I think I might be interested in this. Would it be acceptable, for me to claim, the following nations in Europe: Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and Andorra?

I think I might be interested in this. Would it be acceptable, for me to claim, the following nations in Europe: Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and Andorra?
...

...

Absolutely not without giving us a fairly detailed idea of what your nation would be like, as requested at the beginning of this thread. Serious consideration would require a post including but not necessarily limited to:
Major ethnic groups
Ruling political ideology
Economic information like GDP, etc.
Where you plan to go, RP-wise
A sample of RP.

Note that none of these have to be at all related to real world realities, and it might in fact be cool if they weren't. I would, for instance, support a wildly divergent ethnic, political or economic reality from the one we see in modern Europe.

I don't mean to be a jerk to someone who's showing interest, but those are the things that we asked for on the first post of this thread. While BG phrased them as requests, they're very, very strongly suggested requests. On a more practical level, it's worth noting that Germany and Rome cut your claim into three pieces, and while this would give you some very cool RP opportunities, I'm not sure you realized you were doing it. It would also require a fair bit of explanation as to why these nations formed a political union that survived the Roman Empire's somewhat rapacious statebuilding.

Er, not to dissuade you from joining, or anything.

...

...

Absolutely not without giving us a fairly detailed idea of what your nation would be like, as requested at the beginning of this thread. Serious consideration would require a post including but not necessarily limited to:
Major ethnic groups
Ruling political ideology
Economic information like GDP, etc.
Where you plan to go, RP-wise
A sample of RP.

Note that none of these have to be at all related to real world realities, and it might in fact be cool if they weren't. I would, for instance, support a wildly divergent ethnic, political or economic reality from the one we see in modern Europe.

I don't mean to be a jerk to someone who's showing interest, but those are the things that we asked for on the first post of this thread. While BG phrased them as requests, they're very, very strongly suggested requests. On a more practical level, it's worth noting that Germany and Rome cut your claim into three pieces, and while this would give you some very cool RP opportunities, I'm not sure you realized you were doing it. It would also require a fair bit of explanation as to why these nations formed a political union that survived the Roman Empire's somewhat rapacious statebuilding.

Er, not to dissuade you from joining, or anything.

No, no, I wanted to know if they were open, or if someone had already claimed them. I had full intention of doing so, however, did not want to type it all out, if those nations were already taken. Now, this is just a basic description, and would need to be worked out with the nations between the parts of my proposal, to get a history that fits, and I am will to change to conform to their history.

Now, as I assume by your response, that the areas I inquired about, are free, otherwise, you would have simply stated that part of that area is taken, so, I thank you for answering my question, in your own way, though I admit I could have phrased it better. Anyway, back on the subject.

Well, the major ethnic groups would be German, French, Italian, Romanian, Flemish, Dutch, Luxembourgers, and Frisians. The ruling political ideology would be Conservatism. Well, I would say, that with a population of 35,233,915, that the GDP would be $1,746,483,824,303, giving us a GDP per capita of approximately $49,568. In the future, I see tense conflicts with the Roman Empire, over the Andorra region, which I believe would be tightly contested, however, I hope, that some conflicts, maybe with Germany, (Not really sure of the Geo-Political situation), will distract them from it, if not, than a stand will just have to be made. Being in the center, between the two major European Powers, sorry if that insults the UK, but it appears to be true, my nations goal, would be to prevent conflict between them, and to attempt to act as a buffer, which only means that if they do go to war, we become the battlefield. With such a dangerous backyard, it will be even more important for us to be active in the global community, looking for allies for protection, which may lead to small scale support in foreign conflicts, though most troops will be devoted to defending the homeland. As for a history of how this little nation came to be, it's hard to say, without more detailed information on the other nation's histories, however, I could see multiple possibilities, A. the nation is the remains of a once great empire, gutted by the Romans, which would create hostility, even after many years, or B. A loose confederation of European states, that bound together for common defense, and over centuries developed into one cohesive national element, with it's own unique culture, and nationalistic ideas. If there is anything else you wish to know, simply ask, and I will provide it.

Guptas... good to see you're still with us. Er, where were you? Burma? Or was it Bangladesh?

The latter (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13790935#post13790935). I've basically been absent, and that's my fault, but I suppose my IC isolationist policies make it make IC sense (and thus, the reason for their creation).

It's good to see that you thought it out. Excuse me if I came off as a little abrasive, but we get a huge number of people simply claiming nations along the lines of: "hey ive never rpd before i can has germany russia poland greece hungary and italy becuz i want to be an empire lolol".

A brief rundown of European history seems in order, then:
Rome was founded in the 1960s after years of political and social unrest following the end of the Second World War. Coupled with the monarchist Kievan Empire (Russia, basically, with a tsar) Rome's creation signaled that the monarchist movement in continental Europe had fully reasserted itself after about a century of abeyance. The Federal Republic of Germany and the Republic of Cassanos (read:Poland) bucked the trend by maintaining fiercely democratic, moderately leftist governments.

Britain opposed the founding and subsequent expansion of Rome, citing treaties with the Fourth French Republic and the Hellenic Republic that made it impossible to recognize Rome as a legitimate state. However, due to the military exhaustion of two global wars and disbanding of much of its armed forces, the British Empire was unable and unwilling to intervene on the behalf of a French Republic that had no capital, government or political leader. Though a government-in-exile eventually formed in London, France as a political union ceased to exist in the mid 1960s.

Spain and Greece were shortly incorporated into the Roman Empire, with rather less opposition on the part of Britain. Spain was already a police state, so its inclusion into the Empire marked no real change for its people. Greece, ever an unstable political entity, simply fell apart in the face of well-organized Roman advance. Portugal, in AMW, is represented by a state called the United Taifas of Al Andalus, a Muslim constitutional monarchy allied with Britain.

So power blocs in Europe go like this: Rome and Kiev on one side, opposed by Britain, Germany and Cassanos. There's also the Beddgellan Democratic Republic, a communist state which doesn't like anyone but really doesn't have the ability to do much about it. In case of war in Europe, I can control the sea, but the republics will be hard-pressed to not get conquered by the Russian army. The Quinntonians will obviously do their best, but heavy losses would be anticipated. If your proposed state were to join, you'd be a possible part of that alliance, and to be honest a useful buffer zone between Germany and Rome.

Um, my main questions are: what sort of state would form that would include several geographically disparate territories? Would you be a sort of emergency formation after the Roman Empire, in which the BeNeLux states, Switzerland and Austria sort of realized that they'd be screwed in the event of a war, and so decided to federate? Or (and we favor this for OOC reasons to do with the way that NS mods handle "earth-like" RPs) would you be something else that has a reason for being shaped the way it is? If this is the case, you'd have to explain the fact that you're broken up into pieces by several other states. So, to wrap up this somewhat rambling paragraph, I suppose I favor the "remains of an empire" theory. I mean, if this weren't NS, I think the BeNeLux federation theory would be fun as well, but rules are rules.

Conservatism would be pretty at home in NATO, which has yet to actually form but would be an alliance between the Social Conservative/Religious United States of Quinntonia, Social Democrat/Environmentalist Germany and Market Liberal/Imperialist Britain. On the other hand, you could very easily decide to strike out on your own, which leads to some delightful opportunities to be paranoid and isolationist (or paranoid and interventionist, I suppose). As a last note, whatever you decide, I'd like to point out that AMW is also a safe home for smaller countries. Playing just one country of your claim wouldn't mean that you face instant annihilation by a bunch of large power blocs, since we mostly try to keep the peace between us. There might be an uneasy "peace of Babylon", but it's a peace. I'd almost advise you to have a smaller claim, maybe just Belgium or something, since AMW is actively recruiting smaller members to give us a more "real world" feel. I tell most people this, and it always sounds a bit self-serving coming from the guy who owns almost 1/5th of the world's surface either directly or indirectly. Note that LRR, one of our oldest and best loved (though momentarily quiet) members, doesn't own but more than half of Sri-Lanka.

I rather like the "remains of an empire"-idea, though maybe a somewhat more cohesive claim might be more plausible, e.g. BeNeLux and Andorra or Switzerland/Austria. Also controlling Andorra, which is a remarkably small and insignificant piece of mountain soil, would present nice RPing scenarios, since it is completely surrounded by the evil oppressive monarchists[tm].

Depending on your political stance, Germany would of course be interested in getting these nations into NATO, since er... We are altruistic, want to promote peace and, maybe, would simply love to have some 20 million more people, their armies and territory against Rome, to ensure that Germany does not remain the only battlefield of a potential war in central Europe. Besides, this would stretch my forces a little more, which might be fun, given the fact that at the moment, neither NATO nor Rome can probably win decisively at the Rhine/Palatinate border.

So, er, to close this rant: Seems like a nice idea, I'd really like some more players in Europe.

Afterthought: The Czech Republic and Slovakia are also up for grabs, IIRC.

Okay, I'm going to do some little updates to the front page, then.

Gupta, sorry about that! Though I'm actually even more confused, now. To, "Burma or Bangladesh?" you said, "The latter" but then the post you linked us to seemed to be claiming the former, though that was some eight months ago so I'm not sure if anything's changed. Either way, I'll colour you in as soon as it's cleared up. Do you have a factbook or anything that I should be linking to?

On BG's expansion Spyr expressed I think somewhat fifty-fifty views, and nobody else has offered any at all, so I'm going to paint that in based on the well, we need more stuff to be happening principle, and I'd like to see the Welsh Republican Army vs. the SAS while the Cornish try another march on London ;)

Also, more stuff in space means more stuff for superguns to aim at, which has to be good for business in the CPRD.

Giordanoa's claim looks potentially quite interesting. We'll just need to work out a broadly plausible history that works for what Gio (which we're sure to end up calling you if you stick around) wants his/her nation to look like, and we may have our first really new member for a while! A nation broken asunder in the historic conflicts between France and Germany? Or merely a more modern union of necessity between worried minor states in an age of great powers?

That, and BG's expansion, still leave Europe with the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Montenegro, Malta, and Cyprus if you don't count it as Asian (and Turkey, for that matter, unless our earlier applicant reappears, and the Caucasus), so we're still okay for space even on the most crowded continent.

Gupta, sorry about that! Though I'm actually even more confused, now. To, "Burma or Bangladesh?" you said, "The latter" but then the post you linked us to seemed to be claiming the former, though that was some eight months ago so I'm not sure if anything's changed. Either way, I'll colour you in as soon as it's cleared up. Do you have a factbook or anything that I should be linking to?

Yes, I totally misread BG's thing. It's Burma, and currently don't have a factbook (although that post I linked to earlier is the closest I have right now). Apologies for the confusion!

Following my note on the regional chat thing, i will give a better explanation of my state (and its potential RP qualities, although I have not finished writing up the full recent history). I have had little experience of RPing however I have always enjoyed strategy games and become heavily immersed (which is similar, in a way).

Somewhereistonia is of recent formation. A group of 7 (previously 8) small states with relations generally only between each other had begun to fight larger and more unstable wars. After these become unsustainable, the largest state Qausnam (which was in recent times neutral but the economic powerhouse) brokered a peace deal creating 1 state realizing that the states would otherwise soon be absorbed into neighboring superpowers. The constitution makes several allowances for each of the regions to act independently on many areas to ensure that these states did not feel too threatened.

Since the unification Somewhereistonia is following a policy of libertarianism, following an open market whilst trying to boost modernization(to the entent that IT is now a large industrial sector). Knowing that the state is still under threat and that international trade is the only way forward, Somewhereistonia is being forced out of its reclusiveness towards internationalism.

Despite years of on-off conflict, casualties have often been low due to generals being unwilling to take large risks. As such the state boundaries changed very little (other than 1 state absorbing a smaller bordering state). Therefore population is only slightly lower than one would expect with many refugees being allowed to stay and work in the Neutral but prosperous Qausnam state. Since the war ended 10 years ago, the country has recovered to a large extent. Due to the widespread modernization GDP has grown by a huge extent since the end of the war.

Each state would contend that it has its own resident ethnic groups, however to outsiders they all appear to be of central/eastern European demographics with only a small number of other ethnic groups such as Turks within the state.

Currently the President is a Liberal whilst the largest party in parliament is the International Conservative Party.

OOC: Does AMW go by the absurdly high NS calculations for populations and GDP etc or does it use its own. I would guess from my made up history that the economy would be similar to that of modern day Czech rep or perhaps a little larger due to high internal competition.

EDIT: The number of states in the region is one higher than I originally stated, must have been late or something.

Just seen your note. I would still like the Baltic area. It may have a smaller population but it has better options for potential alliances and trading empires.

I can't think of anything else to put here off-hand but if you need anything more substantial/specific I will try to come up with something.

Note on a change: I decided to shade in grey the 'pending' claim from Giordanoa. That doesn't mean it's confirmed, yet, it's just to let newcomers know that there's already a bid on that territory.

I finally put in the Guptas, so look forward to hearing from him IC in the near future. And I've altered Europe to indicate that Rus doesn't hold the Baltic states any longer.

Somewhereistonia, thanks for taking an interest. We've got rules dealing with those questions on the second post (and linked in the first), which read as follows:

Geography: AMW uses the real world as a geographic template. Claims are placed on real territory and adopt the approximate dimensions, natural resources and hazards, as well as the general climate of the territory they cover.

Population: Also based on the world map, populations for each claim are based on the real-world population of the territory they cover. Simply for argument's sake we use the CIA factbook as a reference when whole national entities are consumed by a claim, though other sources must be found when claims cover less than the complete territory of a real nation or other listed entity (you may want to claim only part of a nation, or parts of more than one). Granted, the CIA are usually wrong about most things, but the data is good enough for our purposes, and if this rule is remembered there is less scope for argument.

Economy: This is not based upon the territory consumed by a claim, but is free-form within reason. We can't all be superpowers, and the wealth and size of new nations must be decided with consideration of the facts of the existance of such states as the United States of Quinntonia, the People's Republic of Spyr, and the British, Roman, and Russian Empires, not to mention the Germany-Cassanos bloc and the British-aligned Dominion of China. This doesn't mean that the old-guard players have all taken the positions of leading powers and now seek whipping boys: co-founder Dra-pol has a US$2,500 per capita GDP in PPP terms, Beddgelert is significantly smaller than its two current neighbours -both run by newer players- and poorer than one of them, and LRR/TCB's nation doesn't even cover all of Sri Lanka.

Technology: As the name suggests, this is modern tech. If you want to use a technology, and there isn't already a direct equivalent in production and active use today (or in the past) in the real world, it's not suitable. Earlier in AMW we had variable throttle hyper agile air-to-air missiles because humanity knows how to make them and is working on it right now, but then there were arguments about whether that made electro-thermal chemical guns allowable, and so on and so forth. Personally I take the view that if these things were actually in regular use in reality, we'd already have clear ideas on how to counter them, and wouldn't have to theorise and argue about possibilities. This ruling keeps things from snowballing and putting-off those of us without time of inclination to spend hours on end reading technology journals et cetera when we'd rather be RPing. You can still design your own weapons, and some of us do, they just have to be confined by the bounds of modern in-service technologies.

So, we base populations as well as geography on reality, but economies are free form within reason. I suspect that the Cz Rep's ~$26k per capita GDP would probably be okay with most members, but likely would mean that your small nation would be seen as something of a tiger economy in recent years in order to have attained such heights. If you went for the Baltics, you'd have just over 7.1 million people if you took all three states, and almost 11.8 million if you took the remaining Balkans instead.

As I say on the regional HQ, the colouring in of the Baltic states was a mistake on my part, so they are still available if you would prefer to be up there. At the moment KR's history has it that the Tsar dominated the region until 1989, but if it worked for you I'm sure there'd be no problem with writing your history in. Instead of three small Baltic states, Rus would have annexed six or seven tiny ones, and they would have come out of the Tsarist Empire in 1989 gnashing at one another's throats for up to ten years of civil war (if they've been at peace for ten years since), which seems reasonable enough... if they'd not been independent for a while, they'd likely dispute borders and argue over who inherits what infrastructure et cetera left behind by the Kievans.

If you'd prefer to go for the Balkan option, I don't think there's any modern history you would need to account for. You've got an expansionist Rome on your border to think about, and warlike revolutionary Celts on the other side, but neither of them have existing history in the remaining Balkan areas.

Just seen your note. I would still like the Baltic area. It may have a smaller population but it has better options for potential alliances and trading empires.

I can't think of anything else to put here off-hand but if you need anything more substantial/specific I will try to come up with something.

Ah, okay. I'll shade that area in grey, too, to indicate that there's a claim under consideration. Hopefully some other players will be along soon to offer their thoughts. Judging by my alertness on the map, I'm not at my most insightful these days, and may have neglected to mention something =)

Perhaps the Czech economy was slightly ambitious but the idea was that I would be following a similar sort of economic model to those of the Tiger economies so feasible. Its still a small nation (with a small army which until recently was using random old equipment from Soviet days as our history now stands, pending acceptance obviously). I still think that I would prefer the Baltics.

I think that remnants of an old empire would be a better fit. Also, you missed shading Liechtenstein on the map, not a big issue, just something I noticed. I would say that the modern Borders were agreed upon centuries ago, after a war with Rome.

Gio: It wouldn't be centuries, since Rome didn't exist until the 1960s. Or 70s, I can never remember.

Somewhere: Note that Britain will really, really like you due to your economic liberalism (libertarianism in American terms), so you should be relatively safe from enemy attack. Or rather, if an enemy took you over, Britain would harbor your government and shell his shores in a vain attempt to get your land back, since my army is small compared to that of Kiev or Rome.

EDIT: There's no reason you can't use a more realistic name if you like, such as the North Baltic Federation or somesuch. Or the Federation of Baltic States. Unless you like Somewherestan, of course.

Somewhereistonia was the best name I could think of when I started on NS. It is an irrelevant name for everything else in my country. I like the sound of Federation of Baltic States, thanks for the suggestion. I'm now going to consider my options but something on that sort of principle is probably best (as it is technically a federation).

Great, I'm glad to hear this.


Somewhere: Note that Britain will really, really like you due to your economic liberalism (libertarianism in American terms), so you should be relatively safe from enemy attack. Or rather, if an enemy took you over, Britain would harbor your government and shell his shores in a vain attempt to get your land back, since my army is small compared to that of Kiev or Rome.
Well, that's what Cassanos (-> Poland) and Germany are there for. If you also intend to play a democracy, we should get along rather well, and this includes aid in re-equipping your military to adhere to western standards.

Well, it wouldn't be Soviet equipment that the Baltic nation would inherit, as Kieven Rus has always been Tsarist, though it would still be the same sort of stuff. The only Soviets in AMW, I think, are in Tamil Eelam.

So, I think it looks as if we're going to invite Giordanoa and Somewhereistonia to set up shop?

A few things still to be worked out, but so far no fundamental objections. We could perhaps do with Vecron dropping by to talk about Gio's history. My immediate thought was that Alsace and Lorraine must have historically changed hands between France, Germany and Giordanoa instead of just the first two. Perhaps Gio, Cas, and Vec should work out basically when the current borders settled.

Anyway, things are looking exciting in Europe, now!

(Oh, and Liechtenstein is actually shaded, but it really doesn't look like it, eh? Strange, but I've double checked!)

I tried to work out the size/state of my armed forces using what Est/Lat/Lith currently have. Most of the (very small) fleet is post-soviet stuff anyway. However, the left over tanks and aircraft that my army assumed control of were soviet, what sort of equipment would I have to change it to? or is it not that important?

Oh, sorry, that was just me picking at semantics. It'll be the same equipment, it's just that in AMW it wouldn't be called Soviet, but perhaps 'Tsarist' instead =) In AMW, the only Soviet state is Tamil Eelam, which doesn't produce a lot of MiGs or T-55s!

So, yeah, same equipment as we'd know as 'Soviet', but it comes from a Tsarist heritage.

Meaning until the world market gets access to a flood of cheap Tsarist equipment following the Bedgellen revolution, your average leftist guerilla in AMW is more likely to be hauling about a FN FAL and Carl Gustav than a Kalashnikov and RPG-7.

I do love AMW.

So, question? How do we determine military equipment? Do we just stick with what the nations that are in our claim would have in real life, or what? Because, I think that in this reality, my nation would be far more armed than the nations that make it up are IRL.

I am surprised to see you guys ambling along so long after I gave this up to pursue the finer things in life; school, women, and a combination of the both. Not that I am really 'surprised' to see you all still humming along, I wasn't that vital or even important, however to see this all still alive so many days (years?) after leaving it for good I can only smile in awe at your collective determination to keep the 'project' (it has far surpassed the modest 'RP' title long ago in my opinion) moving forward.

I considering joining, then not joining, then just coming back here to give you all some high-fives, leave, and see you this time next year. However, that just wouldn't be the same as giving AMW another crack; that is, if you'll have me. Not that I suspect there'd be a lot of complaints against me toddling on back to 'where it all began' however, politeness for politeness sake does hold some amount of truth.

The main thrust, heh can't say that with a straight face, would be directed to everyone's favorite location - Afrika! Most specifically, Zimbabwe or Namibia or even Angola but without a doubt; the main idea should stay about the same. Which would go along this cheery path...

Basically it will be a former South-African rump state, built out of the ruins of Zimby/Angy/Namby (not all, but one of, or maybe bits of both, will figure that all out later). It will be part Cold War relic, part Afrikaan nationalism, part insane, and undoubtedly part fundamentalist. Supported by whomever happens to give them the cheapest guns, this country would be like 1980s South Africa, except without the success. 'Exporting' the unemployed, the blacks and the communists; the country would be the antithesis to what it sees as 'heretical communism' and 'black infidels.'

Still caught up in the old rivalries it watches enviously as the various 'savage' nations around it grow and prosper; only time will tell if it will throw a wrench in the works, modernize, or something else entirely! Like the RL Soviets Afghanistan regime, that lasted a bit playing its cards right; same thing here, just they played them so good, there's only a few seccession movements - not a coup in sight!

How it got there would be, quite simply, the realization in certain South African circles it needed to stop occupying a good half dozen countries and start building; where the leaders of my nation come into play (who will be discussed much, much later.) Obviously, with the desegregation of SA the country now views itself as the last surviving civilization on the face of the continent, and will do whatever it deems necessary to continue its perilous existence. Think Israel, but with more shadows in place of real threats and a Israel all the more paranoid.

It's vague, it's late, and I'm tired; still though - I must ask - thoughts, questions or concerns?

Sounds barking mad. Therefore interesting.

@Gio:
So, question? How do we determine military equipment? Do we just stick with what the nations that are in our claim would have in real life, or what? Because, I think that in this reality, my nation would be far more armed than the nations that make it up are IRL.
If I may: Basically, military, as economy, is free form within the boundaries of common sense and realism. I myself gave Germany (and Cassanos) a military far larger than in contemporary RL, but not without a certain background (which can be examined in my factbook threat on the offsite forums) and, I think, within the realm of possibility.

Sounds barking mad. Therefore interesting.

That's the general idea. ;)

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5056/ssaafricfg2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

A general idea of the size, and lack of strategical depth, of the country. The idea was to include everything in Southern Namibia south of Bethanien (a large, urban, fairly white crossroad city; thus also including the capital de facto -Luderitz. The de jure capital, Walvis Bay; is also within the boundries and obviously, not a South African enclave anymore.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/map/google_map_namibia.htm

Use Google Earth for a rough idea of what I'm saying.

The eastern border in Namibia does not include the 'savage' capital of the country, Windhoek, and never gets much farther then past the city of Uis or Upowo. While in Southern/Central Angola it only goes along the coast, happily incorporating some of the major coastal areas like Namibi and stopping well short of that 'savage' capital.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2456/angolamapas4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

See the sad red line? Yes, I did that.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5883/namibiapol90kr2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yep, more rough sketches; the best you've ever seen I'm betting.

It will be part Cold War relic, part Afrikaan nationalism, part insane, and undoubtedly part fundamentalist. Supported by whomever happens to give them the cheapest guns, this country would be like 1980s South Africa, except without the success. 'Exporting' the unemployed, the blacks and the communists; the country would be the antithesis to what it sees as 'heretical communism' and 'black infidels.'

'Cold War relic' gets a bit odd in AMW... the great struggle taking place between Feudalism and Democracy (both its representative capitalist aspect and its communist one), and perhaps to a lesser extent between Orthodox/Catholicism and Protestantism. Were you thinking a Kieven-aligned African state with its fundamentalist aspect relating to heavy influence from Catholic and/or Orthodox Churches? Would it have adopted feudal elements in its political structure?

On the surface, it seems an interesting idea, one that would fit in well alongside Djanvallaland. It also points to the character of Africa in an AMW context... rather than British Sudan being an odd imperial holdout in Africa, one sees a continent which has yet to shake off the grasp of colonialism... the chaos and popular rage in the USAR understandably intense given the continued presence of numerous regimes that suppress their black African populations. Makes for an interesting dynamic.

Indeed it should. I think that Moorington's proposed state would immediately be thrust into the situation in the Djanval and Bungussi*, where minority rule has just been caught with a sucker-punch from one of two major rebel movements advocating majority rule.

Working out Moorington's population should be an interesting challenge. Seems it's not going to be high, and with one million whites in Bungussi and the Djanval trying to keep down five million blacks, plus Talost's rather vitriolic USAR, the 'colonials' are going to have their work cut out.

I suppose I'm saying that I'd like to see Moorington give this a go. Africa's taking off. I want to see who is going to back who! Colonial authorities in the northern and southern Djanval and foreign interests in Bungussi, Moorington's proposed government, and currently two left-leaning but different rebel armies in Bungussi and the Djanval, lead by Abel Sara and Derek Igomo are in need of support. Big African scramble thread ahoy!


*On that, I've finally put together a map of my 'nation', which currently is still in three pieces, so hopefully as soon as I get it hosted terms like 'the Djanval' will make some kind of sense.

This all sounds terribly exciting, and Moor, I am always happy to have a fine RPer like you back!

So, what would be the reaction to a completely unilateral intrusion of say, 10-20,000 peacekeeping troops into one of these nations? Hmmm.

Before I say anything outrageously obtuse, I want to admit that I have missed a lot, obviously, in AMW background and what I do know is a touch rusty; so bear with me if I get tripped up on any 'obvious' distinctions. ;)

'Cold War relic' gets a bit odd in AMW... the great struggle taking place between Feudalism and Democracy (both its representative capitalist aspect and its communist one), and perhaps to a lesser extent between Orthodox/Catholicism and Protestantism. Were you thinking a Kieven-aligned African state with its fundamentalist aspect relating to heavy influence from Catholic and/or Orthodox Churches? Would it have adopted feudal elements in its political structure?

The main thrust, still can't say that with a straight face, for it being 'a Cold War relic' is not just for explicitly defining the proper nouns, adjectives, or philosophy that it was associated with. Instead, I liked the idea of having a country that is still largely in the deepest throes of 'arrested development' in every way - having it stuck in a cold war (be it 'The Cold War' or some other name) is the best way for me to get across the point that politically it is as backwards as the best East Asian communist stronghold or CIA backed military junta. If there was never a Cold War in AMW (I remember seeing a conversation between some new players and you [?] or Quinntonnia on the subject where it was reduced to merely a ‘chilly’ war) then sure, that’s cool, but the main point was to get across where its mental frame of reference stood.

What does that mean for the larger AMW world's alliance blocs, as you mentioned? Not very much, in many ways South-West Africa (for lack of a better, or less original name) views both of them with the same amount of conflicting scorn and desire. Scorn because they view everyone else as weak, inferior but exceedingly more powerful; thus causing some resentment that in turn causes even more scorn. Indeed, a horrible circle of hate Dr. Phil only wishes he could break. (Yes, I just incorporated a horrible Dr. Phil joke, whose the man? I'm the man.) While desire to be just as strong, successful as the best of them - they have the Oxford/Harvard educated upper (white) echelons and they have bountiful resources. Even more concerning, why do they have such run away unemployment and below average growth? That they honestly blame equally on both sides.

More specifically, they have a burning resentment of the Democratic side for having British (at least, that's how I interpret Gurg's "Emparh") or at least, British influence that they (as Boers or Boer-esques) do not want to associate with in any form, manner, or opinion. While on the other hand, as mostly Dutch Reformists; they have major issues with the Feudal/Catholics that are only exacerbated by the one thing they have in common, their extreme levels of fundamentalism. To top it off, the nation views itself as deeply 'capitalist' to the point 'that's greedy' is slang for awesome - which then puts itself out of a Beth Gellert league or a completely economically feudal association.

However, this middle of the road 'I hate you all' approach does have some variations. For even though only white, land owners (be the land owner a man or a woman) can vote. This parliamentary styled republic does take its politics very seriously (90% vote turnout serious) and better yet, has a few well managed political parties that come across a good idea once in a blue moon. One of them (for instance) is the Afrikaan Integrity Party which incorporates varying amounts of three demographics - patriots (who understand other democracies look upon their country as backwards), farmers and (speaking objectively) racists. That would make it fair game to be influenced by the Feudal side of the world and thus act on the government’s "hate-o-meter." Decreasing SWA's hate of France et al a few notches.

The opposite would be (for instance) a collection of republicans (in the literal sense; they're not American tourists from Texas), Dutch Reformists (read: the religious nuts) and internationalists; the National Party. Who could be the counter to the feudal leaning Afrikaan Integrity Party.


On the surface, it seems an interesting idea, one that would fit in well alongside Djanvallaland. It also points to the character of Africa in an AMW context... rather than British Sudan being an odd imperial holdout in Africa, one sees a continent which has yet to shake off the grasp of colonialism...

I always thought, with a world somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, what would Africa look like? The answer, it seems, is not much but does, as you say, give an interesting new 'dynamic.'

Indeed it should. I think that Moorington's proposed state would immediately be thrust into the situation in the Djanval and Bungussi*, where minority rule has just been caught with a sucker-punch from one of two major rebel movements advocating majority rule.

Working out Moorington's population should be an interesting challenge. Seems it's not going to be high, and with one million whites in Bungussi and the Djanval trying to keep down five million blacks, plus Talost's rather vitriolic USAR, the 'colonials' are going to have their work cut out.

I suppose I'm saying that I'd like to see Moorington give this a go. Africa's taking off. I want to see who is going to back who! Colonial authorities in the northern and southern Djanval and foreign interests in Bungussi, Moorington's proposed government, and currently two left-leaning but different rebel armies in Bungussi and the Djanval, lead by Abel Sara and Derek Igomo are in need of support. Big African scramble thread ahoy!


*On that, I've finally put together a map of my 'nation', which currently is still in three pieces, so hopefully as soon as I get it hosted terms like 'the Djanval' will make some kind of sense.

Lucky for 'us' down here in the South we have always had a larger and better hold on our tribes - for a myriad of reasons ranging from a longer historical record, different frame of mind, larger populations of whites and even - the ethnicity (and extended nuances) of the white population within SWA. Which, sadly, are the main reasons why cooperation between the two of us will not be all roses and Union Jacks. If this hasn't been made abundantly clear, SWA will have to be shaped as a Boer (white demographically speaking) majority, with a few tinges of Portuguese, to keep this realistic... and because I'm biased. Mostly in favor of Oranje drinks when they're bottled by 'Free State.' (Obscure historic reference, yay!)

There will undoubtedly be a few South African die hards and Zimbabwean Brits who fled those countries when everything there went south - so there will be British enclaves that we are happy to have. However, there is still a deep resentment of British meddling in our affairs (be those concerns imagined or not) through South Africa and other such obscure ways no one can seem to pin down or find.

However, generally speaking, most Boers within SWA view even Her Royal Majesty as better than the highest African so aside from some spats - to keep you on your toes - your general conclusion is likely fairly accurate. Just, come prepared for the right amount of insulting and stone walling to keep it competitive.

This all sounds terribly exciting, and Moor, I am always happy to have a fine RPer like you back!

So, what would be the reaction to a completely unilateral intrusion of say, 10-20,000 peacekeeping troops into one of these nations? Hmmm.

I would say... Bad, with shades of gray... :tongue:

*Looks at what he's just written*

I apologize in advance for anyone who read all of it. That's a lot of rambling.

I'd just say: be careful about talking of NPCs, and even of Boers and so on, when considering what's integral to your nation. For example, it looks as if we've finally got someone to play a nation that covers -amongst other things- what in reality would be the Netherlands, but he's not got started yet, so we don't even know if the Boers ever existed. The Portuguese did exist, but only ruled until 1750, when the Lisbon quake sparked a Moorish revolt in Iberia and the restoration of Islamic rule in Al-Gharb Al-Andalus, so their traces in southwestern Africa could have faded to nothing if you'd prefer.
Zimbabwe, to all intents and purposes, is a land marked 'here be dragons' until someone puts a country there, too, as is most of Africa.

I'll keep that all in mind, and if possible, work something out with... Everyone.

But as for right now - I'm tired. Ciao.

*snip claim*

I saw this last night and I was just about to post a message saying how nice it would be to have another radical black nation in Africa, when I realized that, due to the lateness of the hour I had switched "black" with "white" and vice versa. Now it'll be two South African successor states out for my blood...

If only one of them was located within a few thousand miles of me.

Seems it's not going to be high, and with one million whites in Bungussi and the Djanval trying to keep down five million blacks, plus Talost's rather vitriolic USAR, the 'colonials' are going to have their work cut out.

The United Socialist African Republic will do everything in its power to make life difficult for your disgusting white-power states. In other words, they will do nothing.


Just a head’s up to Gurg, Quinn and Djan, I’m working on a post right now.

Quinntonia, and anyone/everyone else, here's an OOC thread explaining something about Bungussi and the Djanval. I'm hoping that I can get international backers for the three minority governments and the rebel groups (one of which has its ideological allies abroad, but is still struggling in practical concerns).

Here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=583594

Happy to have you, Moor. I'll back your claim whatever it is, but note that AMW has gone through a total retcon and relaunch, so France=Rome and Britain=better. Amongst other things. Feel free to drop me a TG if you've got questions.

The Africa situation is looking very interesting. What resources are in Djanval del Norte and which of these do DANLA hold onto?

Due to the recent upgrade in troop equipment in the The Democratic Federation of Baltic States (the new name, I think) our old stocks (Tsarist small arms) are potentially available for trade, so long as it is for the advancement of democracy (and hopefully swaying the DANU towards open market economics) ;)

I'm slowly trawling through all the fact books on the off-site forum (theres quite a lot of stuff there, but its not bad).

Yes, I would be sending delegates to the Gibraltar conference but my account still needs validating before I can post.

Why send you a TG when all I need to do is look behind me?

*Turns in chair uselessly for a bit*

Ah, so you aren't behind me. In that case, sure, I'll send you a TG; don't have any idea how I can live in a world that doesn't have a insane French Monarch rampaging across though...

So, any last minute objections to the applications of Giordanoa, Somewhereistonia, and Moorington? I'm raising the Approvalgavel...

(I just like the way that sounds)

I think it's fair to say that they're all welcome to post factbooks (even incomplete ones with which they may want help from long-standing members) to begin fleshing out their claims, at the very least, and I think in principle you're all approved. Any questions here or the off-site forums, whenever they arise.

Is this game accepting of a USA based player?

If you mean a player that lives in the US, then yes, several of us do, myself included. If you mean a nation occupying real world US territory, then no, since Quinntonia already has that claim, and if you mean a US-like country in another part of the world, then probably, you'd just have to have a reasonable explanation for how that came to be.

http://www.nswiki.net/index.php?title=AMW_Ethiopia

Diplomacy RP?

Following up on the whole NATO idea and thinking that, as the Baltic Federation has had very little or no diplomatic relations (other than its companies trading across the globe) I suggest that we make a diplomatic roleplay thread, might help start another roleplay or two as well (protests against NATO etc).

Items that could be included:
Formation of NATO
Possible formation of formal Feudal alliance
Embassy creation
Trade/other actions with Bungussi-Djanvallaland (notably arms etc to rebels)
Resulting diplomacy from "the Soil of Africa"

Ah, Ethiopia! You're still with us?

Jolly good. I'll put you on the map and link to that Wiki, then. Hope to see you around, shortly!

Sorry for the long absence. But, yes, still here.

A new map (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c95/Spoat/AMW/AMW20map_9.png) appeared!

I like it!

A new factbook will be arriving soon; just know I have NBA Live09 and thus not much time for, example, sleeping much less AMW.

That looks pretty gd, almost like an actual atlas sort of map.

Can we get a colour to claim key for the map?

I’ve got a map (http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr123/jsstrn/NationStates/amw-world-map-v10.png), built entirely on top of Gurg’s version, that has a colour key of sorts, and includes a few additional claims as well as border corrections (Drapoel border expansion southward, etc).

A few notes rising out of this particular iteration of the map.

1) With the emergence of a claim to the Baltic states, Kiev had been looking elsewhere to find a few rebellious provinces struggling to escape Tsarist control.
Georgia-Armenia-Azerbaijan had been suggested. It adds an interesting element, and I’d certainly be in favour of letting Kiev expand their claim to encompass Georgia and Armenia, Azerbaijan as well if they feel its necessary to tell that particular tale. Quinn had mentioned Kazakhstan as well, and I’d be quite hesitant about that, if only because it’s a comparatively large area which could easily appeal to one or more new players.

2) Havent tried to integrate Moorington’s African claim yet, as it breaks out of the RL border pattern and will require a bit of work to get right… will put it in once its got a name and approval.

3) Brazil has also been left unmarked, though I’m rather hoping Trostia jumps in with a crazy country.

4) I’m not sure about Greenland… as it’s a Danish possession, was it being included in our united Scandinavia, or left open?

5) Have I missed anyone?

6) A few other queries as well… in Gurg’s latest map, the Philippines are coloured. Have I missed a claim somewhere?
Also, given our policy on NPC states and recent Quinntonian deployments in the Gulf of Mexico, has there been a Cuban claim? The only thing I recall was some talk early in establishing Kiev’s claim about Havana as a possible Kieven client, did something firm come out of that (and should Cuba get the light blue treatment)?

I've added a link to it along side Gurg's.

On Latin America, yeah, Q. has sent me a few telegrams about that, and I have suggested that he rethink part of whatever exactly he is planning. Part of AMW's overhaul included a laissez fair approach to NPCs. I have pointed out to him that, currently, no Latin American countries exist for him to attack, since NG has vanished and Trostia is up in the air.

As he wants to engage himself in some manner of anti-Communist mission I have pointed out that he quit exactly that in the restart, leaving several of us -Dra-pol especially- needing major rewrites and overhauls to our nations. The new AMW is not going to impose the same off-putting burdon on new recruits who may wish to play nations in South and Central America, and so far as I'm concerned that is the end of that.

No attacking NPCs... Venezuela doesn't exist, Austria doesn't exist, Afghanistan doesn't exist, Zimbabwe doesn't exist, and they may never have existed, or ever exist in the future. This is A Modern World, not the modern world.

If Q. wants an anti-Communist entanglement, he can write Hamhung back into his history, or take on this Abel Sara chap in Bungussi.

Just noticed that Beddgelert doesn't cover his expanded claim of serbia etc on the map, did this get accepted? Other than that I see no problems.

I think it might be good for Skandinavia to have Greenland as it allows for a possible roleplay involving them more in arctic, its also unlikely than someone else will want to claim it.

I would also be reluctant to let Kazakhstan to become part of Russia, although the Caucas states seem a very good idea.

On Latin America, yeah, Q. has sent me a few telegrams about that, and I have suggested that he rethink part of whatever exactly he is planning. Part of AMW's overhaul included a laissez fair approach to NPCs. I have pointed out to him that, currently, no Latin American countries exist for him to attack, since NG has vanished and Trostia is up in the air.

As he wants to engage himself in some manner of anti-Communist mission I have pointed out that he quit exactly that in the restart, leaving several of us -Dra-pol especially- needing major rewrites and overhauls to our nations. The new AMW is not going to impose the same off-putting burdon on new recruits who may wish to play nations in South and Central America, and so far as I'm concerned that is the end of that.

No attacking NPCs... Venezuela doesn't exist, Austria doesn't exist, Afghanistan doesn't exist, Zimbabwe doesn't exist, and they may never have existed, or ever exist in the future. This is A Modern World, not the modern world.

If Q. wants an anti-Communist entanglement, he can write Hamhung back into his history, or take on this Abel Sara chap in Bungussi.

Given Trostia wanted to avoid being swamped by superpower invasions, probably safe to say he wont be eager to jump in with carrier fleets loitering off his prospective coastline ^_^.

More seriously, I'm in agreement with you on NPCs... we did lose rather a lot in the switchover, and its hardly worth the loss of such wonderful stuff if we're going to barrel on into the same mess we were trying to drag ourselves out of.

And anti-communist mission? We've spent the past fifty years trying to convince you lot we're on your side against the bloody take-over-the-world-and-enslave-you-all feudalists... where did we go wrong?

OK, I should probably explain what is going on, USQ has a new government, and its leader is something of a, (dare I say it) maverick. This is as well as being completely inexperienced and having a personal grudge against Communists.

AS for Latin America, I am going to have some vague posts regarding some strikes and so on, but nary a boot will hit the ground, and it will be easy enough to ignore should someone at some point show interest in the areas.

I just wat to establish a military international wilingness, and a show of stregth in my backyard with that.

But, I a really heading towards Africa, and that is where the actio will happen.

Basically, I want to get an Rp going that will actually motivate people to start playing and getting excited again.

So, I am going forward in a limited way in Latin America, is someone shows interest at some point, we can move the nations or retcon this out of existence.

The point is, I don't want a long-term entanglement like that which defined everything taht I did in the last one, I am just interested in getting interesting RP going again.

In that case, wouldn't it be better to just shelve the whole South American side of things? It cant be meaningful in any way... there are no players there, NPCs cant be involved, if a player later appears there they'll have free reign to edit it all out... it hardly seems to contribute anything to the endeavour. Certainly the goal of creating an exciting RP and an activist Quinntonia can be satisfied through the unilateral deployment into Africa, without a sideshow that can't go anywhere except by violating standing AMW policy?

Yeah, on that, the IC post I won't be making unless I have to:

PCC Command, Trincomalee: "...US fleet indicated off Mexico", "Say again, 'US fleet off' what?", "Mexico.", "Mexico?", "Mike Echo X-ray Indigo Charlie Omega.", "Whisky Tango Foxtrot is THAT?", "State bordering Narnia, comrade."

Quinn, at this point I’m going to have to lodge what passes for an AMW ‘formal protest’ against your RP in South America. Under AMW conventions as they currently stand, it cant happen. Other than NG, whose on hiatus, there are no players in South America. AMW players cant involve NPCs in roleplay, to prevent new nations from staggering under the weight of history and solve disputes over non-player responses to player actions. Quinntonia cant strike against communists there because they don’t exist, at least not yet.

The initial suggestion that the action can just be ignored or withdrawn if a new player arrives is not a valid solution: already the ripples of the action are affecting Quinntonia’s relations with friend and foe alike, and the changes to the relationships because of this incident cant just be swept away when someone appears wanting to play the Islamic Republic of Venezuela or the Havana Grand Duchy. Roleplay builds upon roleplay… one of the things that makes AMW such a rich and wonderful world, but also one of the reasons we decided to not allow NPC involvement in RP when we did the relaunch.

There seem to be several possible solutions at this point.
-That aspect of the RP could just be dropped or ignored, but unless this is mandated in some official capacity we’ll just run into the traps of regular freeform NS roleplay, with each AMW nation existing in a different arbitrary reality.
- AMW could have a more general discussion on our NPC policy, and decide that some involvement with NPCs is permitted. I know AMW_China would probably be pleased to be able to interact with the NPC remainder of mainland China, and the Germans or Bedgellens may wish they could pressure intervening states into defensive or revolutionary alliances. Personally I’d be against this sort of change, as it undercuts the purpose of resetting AMW in the first place, and one would wonder what was gained for the losses incurred in the transition.
- Quinntonia could carry out its operations against a valid PC target. There are communists in Africa. There are communists in eastern Europe. Heck, there are ‘communists’ in East Asia, and we’d certainly never see it coming! The OOC objections to the RP are entirely related to the NPC nature of its targets, and would vanish in this case. The IC responses posted so far all relate to the unilateral nature of the attacks, none to their geographic location, so switching the target wouldn’t seem to throw things off.

Finally, on the off chance we’re extremely lucky, no one is lurking out there who wants to play a South American communist state under attack by one of the world’s great powers?

I think that if there is to be any involvement with any NPC areas then it should be the sole basis of the RP is question and needed as such e.g. China attempting expansion to Taiwan or similar (just an example, not a suggestion). It should also have general consent from other players, otherwise things may get highly complicated later on.

So I will join Spyr in his 'protest' against the S American RP. I will continue with the African RP and others as normal.

On another note, I may have a friend who has been on NS a few years interested in RPing Malaysia and Indonesia, he reactivated his account yesterday (I can't remember his nations name).

Q might change Latin America to, say, Tamil Eelam. He has a CSG there and they ARE evil communists who have unknowingly attacked a ship belonging to a western democracy.

Listen, I am not putting any boots on any NPC nations. I would like the opportunity to continue assuming that I have made this attack. Let me explain:

First, I need to have this be big, and completely unjustified according to any semblance of international law. Tamil Eelam won’t work, as I have some semblance of provocation to redress. Same with Africa, I have some form of provocation, no matter how thin. In fact, there is no situation where an attack like this can occur that exists within the PC AMW world. Thus my dilemma. I need a real, visceral, reaction to what may be perceived as an unprovoked attack on a few sovereign states all at once. So, I need that attack or my entire thread does not make sense and I have to re-think it from stage one. The unilateral action against Africa is nowhere near what I need it to be, and doesn’t make sense outside of this milieu.

I in no way want to try the sensibilities of the AMW community, who I respect and admire. I also was one of the main proponents of the NPC policy when we did the re-boot. The main thrust of that was all of the puppets that each great nation had to play meant that many of us had de facto empires that no one could mess with, new player or not. I wanted that to stop.

That being said, there is some level of interaction that we must have with the NPC world. For instance, we all have trade with nations that don’t actually exist. We obviously have ambassadorial missions, immigrants, etc. from these nations, and we have decided to dutifully ignore them in our RP so that no new player is weighed down. I agree with that principle and think it should be upheld. But in my own claim, I have mentions of a few nations that “don’t exist.” I have a base in Bahrain, another in Guam, and my relationship with Panama must be similar to RL. Otherwise, I have to explain away a lot of how the USQ operates. And, these things are general convention for my claim to work.

So what to do?

Well, in my last post I took away the place names and just said, “Latin America and Island Nation.” It could be any of the nations in that general region, Narnia, Latveria, Genosha, or whatever. There will be no more attacks of any kind. There will be no invasion, the troops heading towards Latin America right now from Guam are intended to imply a coming Latin invasion, but they are really headed to Africa. There will be no more actions of this kind; this was just meant to set the stage of incomprehensibility and outrage that will feed into the African action and the NATO conference. This is imperative for the “collaborative artform” that we are engaged in.

So, I suggest that we take up the challenge that Spyr throws down, we need to have a new conversation about NPC nations in AMW. We need a policy that is rigid enough to FORCE everyone to diplomatically and militarily ignore the NPCs in most meaningful contexts, as in we should not be able to effect that history, culture, political allegiances, and possible future claims of any NPC nation. But this policy must be flexible enough to ALLOW us to not have to ignore the rest of the globe to the point of absurdity.
In no way must I then through my actions imply something detrimental or determinative about an NPC. So, to say that I am in alliance with the popular theocracy in South Africa would not do. That implies a culture, polity, and military situation that must be taken into account. However, to say that I trade with South Africa should not matter. To have a character that is from South Africa should be allowed. Even to assume major themes from RL should be allowed as well. For instance, a mentioning of apartheid should be allowed and assumed, if it comes up, unless it must be ret-conned at some future time if a claim comes forward wherein that particular theme should be nonexistent. In that, we are not implying OUR will upon the NPC nations, but allowing RL to do so, unless proven otherwise at some point.

Thus, my attack on the NPC nations would fall under the latter. There are implications for what I am doing. It says something about the nation that I was interacting in. I implied that there were Latin Americans present, that these nations were not strong enough to operate against me in any meaningful fashion, and that some portion of their population was involved in Marxist radicalism enough to worry me. In RL, this could apply to essentially every nation from Mexico south to the tip of Argentina. Well, perhaps some would have more or less power to protect themselves from an unprovoked attack, but you see my point.

So, what I propose about this RP is this; I go back and edit my posts to remove any indications to particular nations, but only reference general geography. We assume this has occurred, and that the AMW world is continuing with this in its collective history. This is also in keeping with the interaction that USA has in RL with these nations, in that these attacks and the scale therein has occurred, I based my numbers on the interactions in this region (minus actual troops on the ground) over the last twenty five years. There inherent difference is that I did it all at once.

So what say thee, fair brethren?

My thoughts on the above, Q, I'm afraid, can be most succinctly summed up in two letters.

I'm sure you can guess what they are, but since it's me, I'll use more than that, anyway.

How much more direct and easily enforceable can, "NPC nations, to all intents and purposes, do not exist" possibly be?

Intervene in the Djanval without asking permission, start on Beddgelert, or reconsider chickening out of Dra-pol.

I'm just going to ignore your attacks on NPCs, and while I'm at it ignore the origins of any of your characters who claim to hail from imaginary places, and have GSIC write them up as spooks or loons.

Ok, so...let's say that Caesar wants to take a vacation, and he decides to go to Mexico, or Cuba, or Brazil, or Japan but they're all NPC nations, does that mean he can't go there because they don't exist?

What about a nation whose primary trading partner is Japan or an NPC nation? Does that cease to exist?

What if I want to have a Latino character in RP, but his background is an NPC nation? Does that character not exist simply there is no player in his nation? Do you see how ridiculous this is sounding?

Granted, attacking an NPC nation throws a gigantic kink in the gears and puts new players in a box. But we cannot say that they simply do not exist, that's ridiculous. Quinntonia's attacks may have gotten close to the line, but I see nothing there that would pigeon hole a new player.

I apologize, however, I am afraid due to RL issues, I will no longer be very active on NS, and therefore, am withdrawing from AMW.

:( sorry to see you go Giordanoa.

Back to the S America thing. If Quinn changes the names to an island nation etc, this is still pushing the rule in my view but perhaps acceptable as it doesn't directly push on potential players.

Although I'm new, I can fully understand the need for the rule and that it needs to be kept. It would be perfectly reasonable to act as though the areas are there, but not have actual nations to represent them, e.g. going on a holiday to S. America not Brazil or Argentina.

While BG is being perhaps overly blunt, my own feelings echo the general sentiment.

Perhaps there is a disconnect in our perspectives on the matter of NPCs. In my view, AMW’s previous incarnation took an approach that attempted to be realistic, at least in a basic sense… countries exist in a global community. Each one interacts with the others, none exist in a vacuum, regardless of the OOC division between ‘PC’ and ‘NPC’. And so someone in the previous AMW would always step in to fill the gap, to ensure that there was a reaction or interaction from an NPC state. Sometimes for the worse, certainly (NG’s tendency to find Francophile caricature/strongmen in every country he came across, some of my own assumptions about public attitudes in post-Bonstock SE Asia), and sometimes with great success (pretty much everything LRR was involved with).
When the idea of eliminating PC-NPC interactions in AMW 2.0 came up, I was hesitant at first… that sort of arbitrary limit, based as it is on out-of-character categories, is bound to reduce realism, based on many of the factors you’ve mentioned above.
I had never associated our NPC-related problems with “de facto empires that no one could mess with, new player or not”… the issue seemed much more related to the weight of history that was building up on every country. For PC states, this is fantastic… just look to Dra-pol, even before he got the AMW ball rolling… but for NPCs all of that history threatened to choke the life out of any concept a new player might propose, with outside factors contributing more to the nature of their nation than their own unique ideas. That was what I thought we were trying to avoid when we rewrote the AMW rules on NPC nations, and it seemed worth the sacrifice of a little realism to produce something that would become better overall.

If we allow bombings of unnamed nations, if we allow characters whose origins lie in NPC territories, if we overtly reference things like trade relations or embassies, we’re building up that sort of history, integrating those events and realities into our stories, and forcing any new arrivals to take such precedents into account. Small at first certainly, but if one player can do it then so can another, and things are bound to build up… and the gains from doing these sorts of things hardly seem worth the cost.

You “need a real, visceral, reaction to what may be perceived as an unprovoked attack on a few sovereign states all at once”. I can certainly understand how that would make for an interesting story. But there are lots of interesting stories out there. BG might plan a mesmerizing tale of Igovianism’s spread to dominate the People’s Party of Chile, fraught with struggles between ideological positions within and an oppressive state without. But he can’t… if he wants to tell that sort of story he either needs to have it happen within the context of his own claim, or in cooperation with another player, and there is no guarantee there will be a player willing or positioned to assist. In the end, he may have to set the idea aside and take a slightly different path (unrest between revolutionary and reactionary figures within the various Soviets will not produce quite the same tale, but certainly no less interesting). Heck, AMW_China imagined his Chinese Dominion as Taiwan to remaining-China’s PRC, with that relationship colouring the Dominion’s actions and the outlooks of its characters, but he isn’t really able to do so due to our NPC policy. Dra-pol’s nation/characters/nature are a result of its interactions with other specific states and characters… really, he needs Quinntonian Dra-pol to tell the story of the CPRD as it was meant to be told, and without that element he has needed to stop, reconsider, and seek a different path that is as close as he can manage within the limitations he now faces.

To bring things to a long-overdue point, while I understand how you have a certain story you’d like to tell, whose telling requires unprovoked attacks on South American communists, you remain bound, as everyone else, to the shared context for storytelling we all agreed to when forming AMW 2.0 in the first place. Others have had to adjust their stories when the needs of those stories could not be met without violating AMW requirements, or when other players did not wish to tell that sort of story with them, and this would be no different.

The reactions to USQ attacks from other countries do not, as far as I can tell (Cass and Somewhereistonia may want to correct me if I’m misinterpreting) relate to unprovoked attacks as much as they relate to attacks without consultation… countries who had thought they were setting out to establish a new multilateral defense finding that a key ally decided to act without even telling its friends… certainly that indicates that a similar result can be achieved by adjusting the roleplay to fit within AMW’s requirements. Ultimately, it may not be exactly the story you wanted to tell, but its not just your story.

Just to clarify, in my posts I was objecting IC to Quinntonian attacks without consultation (these have now been frozen, allowing them to be provoked). In my posts I have left out references to the S. American part so this could be cleared up without stopping the RP from running.

Yes, I'm afraid that I have taken the role of putting-things-bluntly when it comes to OOC issues with easy and clear solutions. The rest of the community is free to address issues by other means, but I'm going more towards the matter-of-fact, and no offence is implicit.

Ok, so...let's say that Caesar wants to take a vacation, and he decides to go to Mexico, or Cuba, or Brazil, or Japan but they're all NPC nations, does that mean he can't go there because they don't exist?

Yes.
He can go, 'abroad' without specifying, so long as he doesn't do anything while there, or he can go to a specific PC nation that accepts him. What's the problem?

What about a nation whose primary trading partner is Japan or an NPC nation? Does that cease to exist?

Since Japan does not exist, the trade relationship does not exist until someone comes along to play a nation that uses Japan's territory and tells you whether or not he or she is willing to trade with you to such a degree. In some cases this may lead to a small degree of suspension-of-disbelief as some nations become near autarkies, but the way round it is to adjust your position within the AMW community that does exist and find trade partners within it, rather than making up partners that don't exist.

What if I want to have a Latino character in RP, but his background is an NPC nation? Does that character not exist simply there is no player in his nation? Do you see how ridiculous this is sounding?

Presumably this Latino character is from one of the Latin nations that make up your Empire, or from Djanval del Norte, since, to the best of my knowledge, these are the only nations in AMW with Latin backgrounds.

I do see how ridiculous your complaint is sounding, given how easy it has been to address all of your points. Don't you?

Granted, attacking an NPC nation throws a gigantic kink in the gears and puts new players in a box. But we cannot say that they simply do not exist, that's ridiculous. Quinntonia's attacks may have gotten close to the line, but I see nothing there that would pigeon hole a new player.

We can, and we do.

I apologize, however, I am afraid due to RL issues, I will no longer be very active on NS, and therefore, am withdrawing from AMW.

Ah, sorry to lose you so soon, but I for one appreciate you telling us right away. Hope it's nothing too serious.

Oh, quick note before some smartypants points it out: I know that my current history makes mention of the Ottoman Empire. That will be removed, but was written when it looked like we were indeed going to have a Turkish player. It will be replaced with something far more vague until I get new neighbours there.

Can I join, I would be interested in having Bhutan, Nepal, and Tibet to its fullest extent in China as seen here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Tibet-claims.jpg).

Is there any more information that would interest you so I can have a claim accepted?

Question, if I were to say, claim an area in Africa, would my people have to be African, or would the climate an resources be the only things affected?

Cause I had an Idea to claim the Eastern half of China but with Germanic people. Due to long ago during the Germanic Migrations, they moved East from the steppes into China (This actually happened, but only one known tribe has been found). Finding a fertile region, they conquered it and expelled the Chinese to the west and north.

I only say this because most of Europe is claimed and I need somewhere to base myself.

Christstan: The number of people would be based on the territory you claim, but they could be any race. Beddgelert, for example, covers Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Seriba, and Albania, but the overwhelming majority of its people are proud Celts, not Roma and Slavs et cetera. Probably if you had a load of Chinese people in the middle of the Kalahari we'd hope for some sort of explanation in your history, but we're pretty flexible about such things (before we re-booted, my Celts were in India!).

New Brittonia: Interesting, but yes, we'd need to know basically what nation you intend to play there. Note that we favour having people play their own nation wherever possible (Beddgelert is Beddgelert, Dra-pol is Dra-pol, Spyr is Spyr, Quinntonia is Quinntonia), partly because of forum rules against alternate history RPs and partly because it tends to mean that people are committed and will stay with us for years. Tell us a bit about what your claim would be/do and so on.

Thanks for taking an interest, guys.

Actually I wish to Claim the remaining North African States - Morocco, Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria. If that is too much, at least the northern half of each hugging the Mediterranean.

The basis will be the Vandals conquered the area, were temporarily subjugated by Muslims, but rebelled and eliminated them (at least mostly) in the area. I will be using by nation (in the below link) with slight modifications to fit our scenario. The two most obvious being the map and population, but also history and economics.

Looks good Christstan, you'll probably get on with Quinntonnia quite well.

Those 4 countries are quite oil rich and would give you a population of around 80million, just taking the coast would make it harder for another player to come into region later on and get involved in European affairs, also more difficult to calculate and you would lose the benefit of lots of oil. I suggest taking just 2 of the countries, perhaps the most interesting would be Morocco and Libya (pop ~36m).

EDIT: I'm not against you having all 4 states. You are obviously capable of putting the effort into it.

Actually I wish to Claim the remaining North African States - Morocco, Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria. If that is too much, at least the northern half of each hugging the Mediterranean. The basis will be the Vandals conquered the area, were temporarily subjugated by Muslims, but rebelled and eliminated them (at least mostly) in the area. I will be using by nation (in the below link) with slight modifications to fit our scenario. The two most obvious being the map and population, but also history and economics.

Sounds fine. I think claiming all of those states is quite acceptable, considering the barren nature of their territory, commonalities amongst their people and the real life precedent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Maghreb_Union). In fact, if you think you can handle it, I would encourage you to claim all of the current member states of the AMU, since those areas are unlikely to be claimed by anyone else, it makes it easier for you to RP with other nations and, of course, you'd be much closer to my nation :P

One thing I will say to prospective members: don't always go for huge claims. Real life countries are as small as they are for a reason, be it ethnic, political or religious differences. You can RP just as easily with a small claim as a big one.

I've not read all of it, yet, but I can't help noticing reference to Galatians in there as persecuted enemies of your ancestors... [draws sword!]

I also noticed that for your Holy Trinity Cathedral you used an image of the Alexander Nevski cathedral, which in AMW serves as the Palace of the Sygenii, in Sygica (Sofia), which is neither here nor there, I just couldn't help noticing :)

Anyway, I would say that Morocco and Libya doesn't make much sense, considering how far apart from one another they are! Surely it'd make more sense for him to have nations that share a border...

Edit: Only other thing I'd say is that hopefully it would be possible to work your history to at least allow Islam to pass through at some point en route to Iberia, as we already have Al'Andalus. No need for it to happen quite as it did in reality, with successive Muslim Arab/Berber empires across the Maghreb, of course.

If possible, I would take the AMU states, but I didn't want to be to greedy, be hey, Yeah I would take them. I did mention it here, the Vandals have their nation, overrun by Muslims, fight them back and retake ground. The history will be edited to accommodate that and historical enemies will change also. Plus, many of the images I have are quite common and need to be fixed into the factbook. (I have the Versailles palace as my imperial palace for example, that kinda of stuff can be changed.)

My initial idea of having just the 2 separate parts was that the middle part had been overrun by Muslim groups leaving the scatterings of a former power. This would probably lead to more involvement with NPCs so I have changed my mind (although there is already a storyline set up for it with Al'Andalus).

The AMU idea actually looks quite good, population ~83m, GDP ~$460Billion. Just wondering, what sort of proportions of demographics are you going to have? nomadic Berbers? this is just me being curious.

Sounds pretty interesting to me.

Morocco, Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria would mean something like 84-85 million people, which is nothing special by AMW standards. Granted, it is a lot of territory, but an awful lot of it is barren, for whatever that matters. My main concern, were he to cut it down, is that it could be easy pickings for someone else. If he were to side with Rome, for example, one might expect Gurg out of Egypt to steamroller half his country before anybody could react, were it to come to war. Basically, I tentatively say that I think I'd be okay with the size of that claim.

What sort of economic strength, and diplomatic position do you suppose your nation would have?

(I wasn't really implying anything with the cathedral thing, by the way, I just happened to notice that it was one of the few buildings I've bothered to use for Beddgelert (along with the Romanian parliament building) and thought I'd say so :) )

This is Africa. Any first world nation could steamroller us before we could do anything about it :p

Can I join, I would be interested in having Bhutan, Nepal, and Tibet to its fullest extent in China as seen here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Tibet-claims.jpg). Is there any more information that would interest you so I can have a claim accepted?

BG covered our requirements pretty well (I.E. give us an idea of what you want to do with your claim, what direction you will take it), so I won't really go into that. However, I will say that your claim is really, really good geographically. You will have a common border with India, which is an active, powerful nation in AMW, you'll be close to Indonesia, which will have a new player soon, and Sri Lanka of course.

As for demographics, the main population would be Germanic in origin, having banned interracial relations and fighting many, many, wars with the Muslims to dominate the area. Another major group would be Spanish and Portugese, having been given asylum many years ago during their years of Muslim wars. On the fringes and deserts would be Berbers, Arabs, and blacks.

This leads me into my new emperor pushing for more racial reforms and thus encountering problems with the conservative elite. good Rp to be had.

Economic strength would be fairly good, operating on control of Mediterranean trade and Oil. Diplomacy would be Oilomacy, manipulation of our Oil reserves to diplomatic gain, and a western leaning and strong anti-communist stance.

Anti-communist? This could be interesting. In AMW the Communists are split in 2; half supporting the west whilst the other half is Bethgellert. The main threat to the "west" is the feudal powers of Rome and the Tsarists (Russia). Very interesting RP, are you suggesting GDP similar to RL (based mainly on oil anyway)?

Probably higher due to increased trade, but not too much right now because I wish to rp the economy as an Issue (too much government spending and super high taxes)

Your historic rivalry with Geletians will probably be exacerbated by your anti-communist stance, possibly causing frictions in the med if you made any major fleet movements. What size do you expect your military to be? What equipment will you have? Usually I'd say it should be around 1% population; but as the government overspent, perhaps it could be larger.

EDIT: Sorry, should probably have put all this in 1 post.

Christstan: Very interesting indeed! Protestant feudalists... half Quinntonia and half Kiev. One wonders where they ended up in the Cold War.

If we had someone chomping at the bit to be Algeria, I'd leap to approve Somewhereistonia's initial suggestion of a Morocco-Libya state as it would lead to some interesting possibilities... without that, a more cohesive claim would avoid potential headaches. I have slight hesitation over the entirety of the AMU... ends up being a lot of territory, a lot of oil resources, and a lot of Mediterranean beachfront. Morocco, with its wayward Western Sahara, certainly, with Mauritania to push the border south towards where the 'action' seems to be in the USAR. But in the greater scheme of things, the AMU doesnt end up bogglingly massive all told, and if (as seems apparent) no one else has size concerns it ought be workable.

Communism (and thus anti-communism) do have a rather different character in AMW than in reality, not the least of which is that the communists were a minor faction within the 'West' during the Cold War, and havent (yet) gotten to send anyone to the gulags as that ball stayed in the Tsar's court as it were.

New Brittonia: As mentioned, it would be good to see what you have in mind for the nature of the proposed territory. It might also help to try and take your 'greater Tibet' and match it up to the PRC's internal divisions (provinces, prefectures, etc) to help work out details of population.

Alright well, my application has been made, I will leave it up to the machinations of your approval/ allocation method.

Whatever it is, I just hope to be in a position to manipulate sizable oil reserves to my advantage. Also, we are likely to be expansionist with goals of other oil reserves in mind.

Edit: Military will be larger than usual, as an almost Prussian stance is taken on men serving in the military. Nearly all men have served, many are career officers their entire lives but serve in the reserves. (it's a weird system of more officers in the reserves than needed because many are nobility or otherwise obligated, usually only the most competent are called, but in times of crisis, a competent officer core would be available.)

I am very supportive of all of the claims heretofore presented. It will be especially nice to have a more active Asia, should that claim come to fruition. I am, of course, pumped to have more activity in Africa and a Germanic Christian nation would give me happy joy in my heart. As a Christian theocracy with liberal democratic leanings, I am quite happy to have you aboard.

OK, but I do want to know where you would have sat during the Cold War. Quinntonia has a majority Lutheran population, and German is spoken by tens of millions of Quinntonians, and in this world, teh Cold War was between everyone else and the fuedalists.

So, would you have sided with the other fuedalists? Who are also Christian monarchies, by the bye. This would have mean a strainign of teh reltionship between traditionally ethnically friendly communities, such as Cassanos and I (Cass is Germany and Poland) but might make for a more powerful Royalists bloc.

Or would you have sided with us, and then there would be a supposed Royalist rift?

Well, religion superceeds government type, so if it were a battle of religions I would side with the Christians. I imagine you are the big blue guy and if so, we would have probably taken a neutral stance as that was a turbulent time in our history - Emperor was deposed of and a Secular Democracy would have been the rulers. So maybe with you then, due to the times.

Im not sure I fully understand what took place.

Actually, the Cold War was Christian vs. Christian for the most part... to grossly oversimplify, the conflict had Orthodox Kiev and Catholic Rome on one hand, Lutheran Quinntonia and secular-Anglican Britain on the other. I suppose the actual dispute comes down to how governments are selected (monarchs empowered by God vs. democratic governments empowered by the population) and the structure of economies (feudal vs. market). As with the RL Cold War, things became somewhat muddled on either side.

So yeah, at the time, as a nation, we would have sided with the democratic factions, but the Monarchist movement was very big, with the Emperor eventually recovering his power (the history for my country here will be altered to fit into the general game timeline.)

It will play out as a general rebellion/ coup de etat type thing as the armies loyal to the emperor will rise up.

The Cold War is kinda still going in AMW... all the major actors are still more or less as they've been for decades, and probably the only change is the rift in the Capitalist-Communist ranks caused by Igovian Communism.

Still, Christstan seems interestingly placed to be a major 'battleground' of the cold war if it has had strong movements on both democratic and monarchist sides, and with it lying close to Rome and part of the British Empire.

Alright so set me up - Land, Population, and economy and I will get started. I alreayd have my thread planned out.

Christsan's claim looks good to me, and the Vandal migration is an interesting historical precedent.
I'd be interestend in how this country sided during WWII, since IRL, it was French and Spanish territory, though a largely German population in what appears to be a "Post-Reich" might have influenced the war significantly.

By the way, what would your relations to Germany be? AMW's Germany is similar to RL's, with some adjustments, i.e. democratic, environmentalist and capitalist.

I like Christstan's suggest claim

That said I'd like to invite you to attend the world royal conference in Rome

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=575533

ps, NATO is for wimps.

Why thank you, I will join up with everyone once my claim in processed and I can formulate history properly and stuff

I'd like to make a claim for the Democratic Republic of Congo, and by extension to Rwanda and Uganda. I don't want to start the role-play occupying Rwanda and Uganda, but ultimately the war will spill over their borders. I don't plan on changing any history up to now of those countries. My aim is to have a new resistance group come to prominence, but this time more in the Western provinces of the DRC. This resistance group will be led by an "Oxford-educated" libertarian who will attempt to establish ties with libertarian nations (maybe Cassanos?) and overthrow the democratically elected government (of 2006) for "corruption".

These will ultimately rule the country, fighting a continued war in Eastern DRC to eradicate the various liberation fronts, some of which are backed by Rwanda and Uganda. As a result, this war will spill into these two African countries, and ultimately the DRC will have a tenuous hold on their sovereignty. Of course, we're looking at many role-plays worth of civil war, insurgency and rebellion.

In the long run, I'm looking forward to a libertarian African state (DRC-Uganda-Rwanda), with social, economic and political problems. I'm looking forward to role-playing the economic progress, and how this will effect the problems with famine and disease. I also look forward to using a lot of "outmoded" equipment (like T-55s and Type 59s, and the like) and procuring more of this type of equipment from foreign countries.

What do you guys think?

Looks good, Macabees.

Christstan: As there aren't any objections coming up, AMU it is!
CIA factbook gives populations as follows: Algeria (33,769,668), Libya (6,173,579 [includes 166,510 non-nationals]), Tunisia (10,383,577), Morocco inc. Western Sahara (34,343,220), Mauritania (3,364,940) = 88,034,984.
Best step to take next would probably be to put up an AMW version of your factbook (usually best to do on our off-site reference forum here (http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?))... with the major claim issue settled, that will be a chance to work out details of history and any objections to your vision of the nation's economy.

Macabees: There might be some need for adjustment in terms of details (AMW history is rather divergent from that of RL), but in general terms an interesting concept, and one that would add something quite different into the African mix... libertarian revolutionaries alongside leftist guerillas, apartheid regimes, and colonial administrations.

i'll need posting abilities, but i was going to make a wiki on it for amw. and thank you, ill get started right away.

Okay, I'll draw Gio out of the map and Christstan in. What's the final claim, though?

The original ask was for Morocco, Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria. Is that sufficient, or is Mauritania added? And Western Sahara? I am having strange visions of the Desert War between the British Empire, and Germany and the Sandy Hun!

I think it was settled on the AMU territories.

What are the main concerns regarding the history of central Africa? Colonialism?

Mac: Approved by me, and probably by the community barring a last-minute freak out by Beej. Britain will fund your libertarian revolutionary fellow, and I expect to see his revolutionary bands wielding L85A1s and driving surplussed land rovers. I could probably spare you some Challenger Is and late model Centurions as well, if you like.

Africa's history in AMW is pretty fluid, but it appears that large sections of Africa escaped colonial domination. Christstan, for example, seems to have been a nation since the Middle Ages or late antiquity, though apparently West Africa was part of the various European empires. Britain holds a certain amount of suzerainty in NE Africa, specifically Egypt and Sudan. I expect that British power in the bordering areas is pretty significant, if only informally speaking. Hope that helps.

Christstan: It seems you're aboard. Welcome. As to threats regarding a rapid blitzkrieg of your territory by British troops, it's not like it's without precedent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass). I promise to be good though, so long as you behave. Imeanwhat?

Others: As usual, I'm with Spyr. While I respect Quinn's judgment and expect that he'd behave in a very responsible manner regarding the NPC rule, his actions set a precedent that I'd rather not see. I know that as a new player, I had a tendency to push rules to the absolute limit of their plausibility (remember my "MT" AS-12, anyone?), and seeing veterans do the same did not in any way make me more inclined to being reasonable. So, Quinn, if we could trouble you to edit the relevant posts? Thanks.

Ah, it's the return of the Mac!

"...barring a last-minute freak out by Beej"

WTF? I am totally going to invade the **** out of you! I can't believe you said that! Where's my sword?

On Central Africa, though, more seriously, if anything you have to be careful because of the lack of history. Belgium doesn't presently exist, and we're not sure that it ever shall. I suppose you can be vague until someone turns up there, or find someone else to be a past colonial master.

I have an idea.

Could I be a Belgium with that colony (minus anything that was in the Republic of Congo)? That would be a pretty interesting alteration to my "libertarian central Africa". I am sort of high right now, so keep that in mind. Just tell me what you think.

Interesting.

For clarification's sake, R.Congo was, in AMW, just as french as ever, but is called Bungussi (or most of it is, I gather, the coast excepted), and is now independent but still white-ruled, and facing Communist insurgency from the majority native population.

I would suggest that if you were to do that, you consider having 'Belgium' be an original country, to make AMW more... well, original, and to help us avoid trouble with forum rules about alternate history RPs and such.

Well, I'm full of cheap vodka, so I dunno what I'm saying, either. Damn you, saturday night!


...well, not full/

Although it certainly seemed like an interesting idea to me last night, when I was not fully sober, thinking twice maybe not. Belgium would be comparatively weak next to whoever owns France and Spain and then Cassanos. Although, it would probably be an interesting concept since it's likely that Belgium would probably be allied to Great Britain (if Great Britain still considers itself the entity which maintains the Balance of Power in Europe). But, the idea of being a self-standing libertarian African nation in the post-colonial world is more appealing, and besides I can role-play with a third world nation, with a subpar military.

If Belgium is allied with Britain, Germany and Cassanos would probably have friendly relations with it as well. As for the Congo idea though, I rather like it and would, as I said before, supply you with sufficiently modern armament.
Besides, the G3 is so much better suited to the Congo than the L85! I mean, seriously, rag-tag militia with nifty modern guns instead of clubs that shoot (accurately, though!)? Nah... ;)

I need my GDP and economic Info plusanything else I might need. Check out my Wiki, its a work in progress.

http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/Christstan

http://forums.jolt.coI.uk/showthread...1#post14569501

This is the thread where I will show the developments in my country and the people's response (Heinz) and that of the Conservative Old Guard (Franz)

Ah, well, the economy's partly up to you, so long as people think it's basically reasonable.

What are you thinking? I gather than in reality the states you cover would have a GDP in parity terms of something under US$6,000 per capita, but my impression is that you'd probably see Christstan as somewhat wealthier than that?

Still, you're reliant chiefly on oil, so vulnerable to market fluctuations and apparently to some degree lacking elsewhere? I'm not sure what the investment climate has been like through the so-called cold war between feudal-Christian Europe and the Capitalist and Socialist worlds... potentially more friendly than the real states you represent, and of course more unified, but at the moment I'm not sure if you'd have been looking for investment from feudal or capitalist sides, and how secure either would have felt. I'm not really coming to a point, here!

I suppose there's the crown's interfering hand that may not always be a positive force.

At the moment I'm imagining Christstan as at the higher end for a high-middle income economy, or possibly the lower end of high-income.

Bah, not helpful.

GDP ~$460Billion <---rough estimate of current AMU GDP.

Depending on how you RP this you can increase or decrease this within reason. For example, my country, the Baltic Federation has a much bigger economy than IRL due to it being something of a tiger economy. You have a more unified body and a much more stable environment, however the monarchy's interference and such may mean that these benefits are effectively canceled out.

Actually, it is at 543.427 Billion IRL.

However, if you factoring population, the GDP is at like, 6,000, however even Libya alone has a GDP of 17,000, so I think it is Algeria with its population, is lowering it. If I was to put it at a decent 20,000 per person, it would come out to 1.761 Trillion. This factors in the average modern life for my people, but considers the Arabs as well.

I was going off GDP (nominal) not PPP, so np there. More than tripling the GDP seems a bit of a large jump, my superb tiger economy thats been booming for at least a decade has much less than double its RL value.

I will try to get a post up soon detailing the recent history of the Democratic Republic of Congo and the different factions currently vying for power, or fighting in the eastern provinces.

I thought the region did not affect you economically, only your natural resources. I was only giving my nation a half decent GDP per capita I could cut it to 17,000 to match Libya's per capita

You're both right, in a way. When it comes to economy, AMW is pretty flexible overall. We allow for powerful-but-anarcho-communist economies, so there's very little that's actually forbidden. On the other hand, players are encouraged to square their economic claims with proposed history, resource distribution and the like. To that end, consider: does your proposed claim have the historical distribution of resources to allow for early industrialization in the European model (for which coal, waterways and iron were important) and does its societal model promote free enterprise, ingenuity or entrepreneurship?

All of those things were particularly important for getting a head start during the Industrial Revolution, and only very recently have societies that didn't make the early industrialization cut made any kind of progress toward economic modernization. It's really up to you, but those are a few indicators that might help you get an idea of what a 'realistic' economic model might be.

On the other hand, if you can tell an interesting enough story with it, you can claim a relatively high economic performance and just get away with it (glances at BG). What it really comes down to is, how interested can you keep your readers?

Yes, yes, my economy is about in line with that of Hungary (which is consumed by Beddgelert), I'm a bad man. Fear my 1.2% yearly growth of doom! Cower before my tin-helmeted AK-weilding warriors and their T-55 spin-offs, or at least their Tu-95s! You will never compete with the wares of a simulated-market economy that derives almost all of its technology from that generated by an inferior mid-C20th Tsarist command structure!

[Throws kerploding Rubik's cube at Gurg]

Er, other than that... what he said :D

I think Soviet India may have burned a nightmare into AMW's collective psyche from which it will never recover.

kerplod'd

Yeah, I was mostly just poking Beej to see how he'd react. He's pretty much cleaned up his act by now, despite being an unwashed commie who tries to "simulate market forces".

Bah, previously my 'act' with Soviet India was an economy that peaked during a massive outlay on a crash armament programme at a per capita level equal to that of Belarus or Kazakhstan. I dunno what everyone was terrified about, our entire navy was designed to be able to take on one US carrier battle fleet by the end of a programme we never got to complete. Damn shoddy Drapoel workmanship! No more outsourcing for me... I can build my own deathtrap of an aircraft carrier, this time around!

Er, anyway... Christstan, just for the record, since we use the CIA factbook (to avoid arguments), Libya's per-capita GDP (PPP) would by $14,900... but in any case, I'm not going to oppose your $17,000 figure for your nation.

I think that 17,000 is very reasonable.

Dear People of AMW:

I am interested in joining your group. I am thinking of starting a small nation, either in Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, or Tajikistan, most preferably Kyrgyzstan. Depending on the placement, the ethnic composition would be largely Mongolian or Turkic people. The nation would be extremely underdeveloped, with most people still nomadic. (GDP per capita of less than 1000 USD) The country would be largely devoted to a strain of religion, (much akin to or possibly Tibetan Buddhism) and would be led by a king/lama. Yet at this time, the current lama would be a teenager, who would need to struggle with the various factions wanting to control the nation. I would invite foreign emissaries and tutors who attempt to influence the young monarch and move the country into their camp.

That being said, I am not looking to be a huge power or a major presence. Basically I'd like to chronicle how the newly enthroned king attempts to "modernize" and improve the lives of people in a small poor country, with a possibility of tiffs with other nations. But one problem I have is that I have NO experience with military RPing. Also, due to college, I might have bouts of absence, although I have stayed with NS for over 2 years now, and the RP world in one way or another for about a year, so I will be around.

I am a puppet of Mephras (http://www.nationstates.net/mephras), who actually has some of a posting history. I chose this puppet because the name fit a bit better with what I wanted to do. Some examples of RP follow.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=542353

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=553974

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13885649&postcount=3

So I hope all of this will provide you with a bit about me and what I'd like to do. If you'd like to know more or have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Sounds very good, if not slightly limited in the international sphere. What kind of economic direction would be be following? Or would it be mixed with different factions attemtping to take it in different directions?

I'm envisioning a sort of central planning, with the king attempting to introduce various development plans (farming projects, transportation, etc), but nothing drastic. It would emphasize gradual changes and improvements. The extent to which he ushers in social changes might be hampered by traditional hierarchies, although things like land redistribution, civil codes, and human rights would probably be attempted or at least discussed at some point. Also, I'm still mulling how closed off the country would be from foreign goods, media, etc.

As for the international sphere, I'm still trying to get a grasp of the politics of AMW, so I guess the more I can learn about it, the better I can think of ways to better integrate with other countries. I'm attached to my concept, but am open to suggestions to make it more interesting and better suited to AMW.

You ideas are quite interesting and I, personally welcome them. They are realistic; you have a good story and seem to be quite good at RP.

Going on the AMW map, I think Mongolia would probably provide more opportunities to RP international sphere. Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan are currently isolated (although I'd like to see someone come to take Afghanistan/Pakistan at some point). The politics of AMW can be quite confusing at times, especially when people refer to the old AMW *glares at the old timers* :p

I'd certainly be in favor of anything by Mephras, who is an excellent RPer, and I'm intrigued by the concept, to say the least.

Nurtured Harmony/Mephras: An interesting proposal, and one that ought fit rather well into AMW. Somewhereistonia may be right about placement... Kyrgyzstan is somewhat isolated from other player nations at the moment, though I suppose that might not be too much of a drawback depending on how you hoped to interact with the wider world. Mongolia would have the advantage of bordering two of AMW's larger and more connected powers (Kiev and Spyr), but that would probably mean your state would face some rather more intense pressure... I think the combined total of Kieven & Spyran military personnel ends up larger than Mongolia's population.

And shush, you darned youngsters! I'll stop muttering about the Shining Sphere of Revolutionary Co-Prosperity when the lot of you stop forgetting we've had no grand clash between Capitalists and Communists. Not yet at least... that damned Igo will be the death of all of us.

Would you be willing to consider another nation that is slightly less isolated/bordered by ginormous armies that would just as soon invade you as "influence?" I am looking at my world map and am wondering if you could get the flavour of what you want, as well as be able to interact a little more heavily with the AMW world at large. I am thinking about Thailand. I think you could even integrate some of the cultural motifs that are present there. But, it gives you a few nations in your region, as well as a large coastline, that allows you to get more invollved/allow others to get more involved.

How does that sound?

And shush, you darned youngsters! I'll stop muttering about the Shining Sphere of Revolutionary Co-Prosperity when the lot of you stop forgetting we've had no grand clash between Capitalists and Communists. Not yet at least... that damned Igo will be the death of all of us.

I've always kept it in mind, I was even thinking of starting an RP for a treaty with you, but it seems to be a bit limited. I think I will wait for the NATO thing to go through first, otherwise my diplomats will get all overstimulated or something. :D

Thanks for the replies and support. Quinntonia and Spyr, I can definitely see how the placement would be sort of a problem, especially the lack of a coastline, so I would be willing to move to Thailand. It has the Buddhist culture (although of course, different) and I could definitely work with a monarchy there. I need a bit of time to develop and rework the nation a bit, but I think that would work.

Sounds like an interesting idea.

Place it wherever will work, I suppose. And you don't have to stick to national borders, of course. You could, for example, just have, say, one of Thailand's provinces (or whatever Thailand has!), or one and Cambodia, or... well, I'm sure you get the idea.

Theres always Bangladesh, theres no reason that couldn't be Buddhist in AMW and it would put you right in the middle of the Gupta-India thing, though that may be a bit more involved than what you were thinking.

Personally, I think you should pick whichever country you like. We'll make it work, and any of the nations you discussed would be interesting in different ways.

In other news: fuck this cold I have.

Thailand would be fun in that it allows me to have yet another neighbor with which to have tense relations.

Yeah, that would be cool, I would like to see that region start to get a little more devloped RP-wise, you have India, Ceylon, Tamil Eelam, Myanmar and with this, it could make for some interesting regional RP.

Just to confirm as I try to keep the world map up-to-date, we've accepted Christstan (Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Mauritania) and BG's expansion (Serbia, Albania, Macedonia), while losing Giordanoa (BeNeLux, Andorra, Switzerland).

Currently we've got pending claims:
- Mac (DR Congo, Uganda, Rwanda): This seems to have been approved, pending the formality of a factbook?
- Nurtured Harmony (to be determined, somewhere in Asia): Also seems to have recieved initial approval, once details of geography are settled?
- New Brittonia (Bhutan, Nepal, greater Tibet): Haven't heard much from this claim for a few weeks, has the bid lapsed?

Am I missing anything?

Yer, that looks about right.

I've been working on a post. I wrote a post, but it has to be re-written after some new information pertaining to Congo's current war. It seems that Rwandan and Congo have come to some sort of an agreement, so I'm going to role-play as if that lieu in the war gives the general an opportunity to launch a coup.

I just wanted to pop back for a sec to assure everyone I'm still interested. I just finished final exams so now I should have time to develop everything. I have decided to take Thailand if that is ok.

Very OK.

Sounds good.

Hey Gurg, are you going to have time to reply to SoA soon?

Oh, and Djan, I don't know if you saw or not but I posted something in your thread, Bonny Bights, as well.

EDIT: Scratch that, post coming.

Any news on Moorington? Or any of the other nation bids up?

Could I possibly claim Taiwan? My factbook is here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=589081)

Rping Sample. I am Suid Afrika. (http://z8.invisionfree.com/WW_V2/index.php?showtopic=116)

Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to be able to get this together at the moment, so you can unclaim my land. Hopefully this summer will be a better time. In the meantime, thanks for all the advice and replies, you have a great thing going here.

That sounds good Qingzi, how do you expect to play Taiwan?

NH, I hope to see you back this summer then, its unlikely that anyone will take Thailand in the meantime.

That sounds good Qingzi, how do you expect to play Taiwan?

NH, I hope to see you back this summer then, its unlikely that anyone will take Thailand in the meantime.

Well my nations backstory is, when the Qing Dynasty began to fall, instead of collapsing, like the ROC, they moved into Taiwan. There, the monarchy lived until the communists took China over, then the republicans moved onto Taiwan aswell, forming a constitutional monarchy.

They are a neuteral, peacful, trade focused people.

Well, I'm not against this, though your history will have to be changed slightly to fit with AMW history.

In AMW, most of the nationalists moved into AMW China (south China); see here > http://z7.invisionfree.com/A_Modern_World/index.php?showtopic=92.

A Monarchic Taiwan, would help explain why it was never controlled by China/Britain. It could then have developed naturally into a Constitutional Monarchy.

Likewise, the origins of the Qing would have to be adjusted somewhat to fit into an AMW context, given the presence of Spyr in place of what would be RL Manchuria... Nurhaci would be born some 1,500km further west, at the very least ^_^.

It would certainly give China an interesting historical dynamic... a holdout of dynastic monarchy on Taiwan, a large swathe under British rule in the south, and a possibly-communist north... the debate over which is the 'true China' would be fascinating.

How would Qingzi's constitutional monarchy be set up? Would the monarch wield much power within the political system, or be confined to a symbolic role? Would the state still uphold a claim as rightful rulers of the mainland?

Ok, we have several bids floating around with no real conclusion. Attempting to be an optimist I'm hoping that they are still interested. So the unofficial bids list is:

Qingzi-Taiwan. Interesting bid, shouldn't be too difficult to work out the kinks.

Nurtured Harmony-Thailand. Out till the summer it seems. Hopefully he will be back, in the meantime, should we keep Thailand on hold if a bid comes forward?

Christan-North Africa. Ceased to exist. I hope this is just a RL thing thats stopped him from coming on NS and he will log back in soon and all will be well.

Macabees- DR Congo+. We are still waiting on a factbook, but I think this bid is accepted anyway.

New Brittonia- Tibet+. Lapsed bid I think.

Moorington- South-west Africa. Ceased to exist. Does anyone have any contact details for him. Has he just lost interest?

Cotland-Skandinavia. I know that this is an accepted bid, but does anyone know if he is still AMW active? His nation is in Haven and has been for some time.

Older claims- Noval Gaul (ceased to exist), Trostia (seemed vaguely interested earlier in thread). Just looking for some kind of update, but these appear lapsed bids and open to claims I think.

Thats all the bids, now onto the matter of the Korean Enclave. Since suggesting the idea of Quinn unexpectantly pulling out for some political reason (requiring his consent obviously), and then leaving a sort of confused state thats feels alone and besieged; I have grown to love the idea.

ATM with the Baltic Crisis I probably don't have time to RP it out well enough, but afterwards I would quite like to RP this as well; thats if you would let me. Of course it could also only be temporary, with Dra-pol or Spyr annexing Hamhung or something to bring it to conclusion. Thus allowing Dra-pol to keep his treasured history, whilst clearing up the remaining issue.

In other news: I will probably post something in NATO and World Conference threads tomorrow. For now, I need sleep.

My apologies to everyone who's come to expect this kind of behavior from me, but I think I might like to give up Ceylon in favor of a different claim, in light of South Asia's recent slowdown. Provided, of course, this is acceptable to the AMW community as a whole. I have no major objection to staying with Ceylon in the long term, if that would be more convenient for everyone else, BG in particular.

Right now, I think I'm leaning towards a territory covering most of Iran, probably minus Sistan and Balochistan and perhaps missing some territories along its Western border as well. If you'd like to humor me, I also would like this prospective state to administer the Socotra Archipelago and, for aesthetic reasons as much as anything else, the sub-Antarctic Prince Edward Islands, but neither of those island groups are at all essential and if anyone has any objection I'll gladly leave them out. Also, I wonder if it might be interesting to include some kind of Caspian Sea enclave, sited perhaps on the coast of Turkmenistan.

This state, which, pending a more creative name, I'll call Parsistan, will most likely be populated by a mix of different ethnic groups, principally Azeris, Kurds, and the majority Alavars, with Ismaili Islam as the majority faith. Parsistan would be a multilingual nation, with each one of many ethnic communities speaking their own language, while government business would most likely be conducted in Turkish or Arabic. The Alavars, a Turkic people and originally semi-nomadic, might speak what is basically a Turkic language, but one that draws heavily on ancient Greek and other Indo-European influences.

As for government, Parsistan will most likely follow Ceylon's example, namely a Federal-Parliamentary system with a relatively weak executive.

If Nova Gaul ceases to exist, is there anyway I could claim Spain instead of the Democratic Republic of Congo? It would require a lot less research on my part, and would be easier for me to roleplay. The idea would be similar; the dissolution of Nova Gaul has led to an independence movement on the Iberian Peninsula (both Spain and Portugal), leading to a libertarian, democratic government in what could be called "Republican Union of Spain and Portugal".

If not, I will still to Congo.

the sub-Antarctic Prince Edward Islands.

Odd to say the least. :p

Also, I wonder if it might be interesting to include some kind of Caspian Sea enclave, sited perhaps on the coast of Turkmenistan.

I do like the sound of that enclave, if only you had someone playing around it....

Ismaili Islam as the majority faith.

Not Zoroastrianism :(

Generally it sounds pretty good to this here newbie, Ceylon is slightly isolated.

If Nova Gaul ceases to exist, is there anyway I could claim Spain instead of the Democratic Republic of Congo? It would require a lot less research on my part, and would be easier for me to roleplay. The idea would be similar; the dissolution of Nova Gaul has led to an independence movement on the Iberian Peninsula (both Spain and Portugal), leading to a libertarian, democratic government in what could be called "Republican Union of Spain and Portugal".

If not, I will still to Congo.

Portugal is taken by Taifas, and Spain is part of Rome, so they are taken. Theres always the remainder of the Balkans if you want a European place.

If Nova Gaul ceases to exist, is there anyway I could claim Spain instead of the Democratic Republic of Congo? It would require a lot less research on my part, and would be easier for me to roleplay. The idea would be similar; the dissolution of Nova Gaul has led to an independence movement on the Iberian Peninsula (both Spain and Portugal), leading to a libertarian, democratic government in what could be called "Republican Union of Spain and Portugal".

If not, I will still to Congo.

Yeah, NG has gone, but he was based in Mexico and Hispaniola. We've a Roman Empire covering Italy, Greece, France, and Spain; and a Moorish Portugal at the moment.

Not sure if it'd appeal, but the Benelux nations, I think, are free, so you could perhaps put a sort of second Spain there, and call it whatever the heck you like. It doesn't have to be culturally or linguistically related to the Benelux nations of reality, after all, and it's not like Spanish influence in the Low Countries would be without historic precedent anyway.

As to TCB, with the state of things at the moment I don't think many people will oppose a change that leads to more activity amongst respected veterans of AMW. Perhaps the Taifas would be glad to see another majority-Muslim country active in the world, too, all be it of a different branch.

I will probably keep Tamil Eelam even if you leave Ceylon, as it might make the adjacent plot more appealing to new players who want the opportunity for interesting strife on the otherwise self-contained island setting. I was kinda wondering what to do with the Tigers in light of your infuriatingly reasonable administration, anyway ;)

Hello!

I'd like to join AMW as Argentina. As a nation that is very alike how Argentina is in real life.

GDP: $573.9 billion

GDP real growth rate: 6.8%

Labor force: 16.27 million

Public Dept: 48.4% of GDP

Inflation: 8.6%

Population: 40,913,584

Ethnic groups: white (mostly Spanish and Italian) 97%, mestizo (mixed white and Amerindian ancestry), Amerindian, or other non-white groups 3%

Language: Spanish



The deviations I'd like are these:

Administered by President for-the-foreseable-future (life) Mr. Damario Jeraldo, who has come into power by juggling support from the people and alliances with military generals who helped him upwards. Jeraldo's administration helped to calm economic instability while ties to the military satisfied conservative parties. Left wing extremist groups were defeated and what was left was forced into hiding/exile, though are still an annoyance and factor. The president has fallen into a lucky place of being acceptable by the people while maintaining the military's support, but he must stay in the people's favor to keep the military away from trying to seize more power if they should disagree with his policies, hamming it up on camera whenever he can to a delighted crowd.

Religion is very alike but not quite the same as Catholicism. A group of Christian immigrants/pilgrims as well as political divisions within the populace led to a morphing of the Catholic practices to be centered more around the veneration of saints rather than focus on God (though he's still in the picture). This has branched out The Christianity in Argentina from its North American and European roots. I suppose a mix of Eastern Orthodox/Catholicism, but even moreso caught up in veneration of artifacts/rituals/saints. This Christian branch has great hold and popularity in Argentina, preaching the message of a Unified Argentina and trying to end violence while Conservative military and Leftist rebels fought throughout its modern history, though its fractional nature has the Church sometimes butting heads with itself over liberal new age practices versus old traditional beliefs.

Which would lead me to this proposal for religion in relation to population:

Nominally New Catholic 92% (30% practicing), Protestant 2%, Jewish 2%, other 4%

Argentina has sort of claimed a piece of antartica. And I'll be RP-ing where it'll be trying to eat the rest of that cold pie. I'll also be trying to achieve nuclear armament and be trying to garner allies to boost the economy while exploring religious affiliations with nations of similar beliefs.

As for all the other details, I plan on following the CIA factbook Bible of...facts.

As for me I can safely say as a face-to-face character RP-er I am freaking Shakespearian in my characterizations. But that's playing one character. Playing a Nation I'm fairly new to. I played a nationstate-y game called...fox...something awhiles ago. I'm a fairly decent post-doer, I'll keep on in a thread until a story's concluded and feel honestly bad if I'm holding up the show. But I'm more of a fan of people interacting than how much power can be accumulated and then doing the research and punching the numbers to figure that powerbase out.
I like history though! Had a great time reading about Argentina on wikipedia while researching this post. Though I may have put the nails in my casket mentioning the wiki....
AND I plan on sticking around for a long while, I understand you've got a detailed world and consistency is a must to keep up carefully balanced nations and alliances as well as RPing smoothness.
Heck, took me years to get rid of my neopets account, I couldn't stand the thought of the thing dying.