NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: Before you bite my head off, the battlehawk has been gathering money and funds for the project for nearly three decades while they waited for sufficiant tech advances to be made, btw, designed like the Valiant from Doctor Who.

Battlehawk News Service

Field testing of the AAC has been confirmed today by the department of defence. The 'Enterprsie project' has been the project of a special devision of the DOD for nearly thirty years. There are concerns that the Carrier will not be able to get off the ground. Once in the air however, hopes are high that it will stay there and not fall out of the sky. The project resulted in the scrapping of dozerns of our older ships that were in the mothballs. These metels were mainly used for the interirior as the outer hull needed to be strong.
In other news...

<White House>

"When's the Enterprise due to take-off?" Psdt Daniel Clark asked.
"Launch time is 60 minutes" Theresa Green reported.
"Will it work?" Daniel asked.
"Well, if it doesn't we'll feel the few dozern nuclear reactors explosion here" Thersa commenetd.
"Ahh"

<Top Secret Militry Test Facility>

The Massive form of the enterprise saw light for the first time as the hanger she had been built in was airlifted away. The Enterprise was to have only a skeleton crew and no jets until it was sure that she'd stay in the air.
The Joint BAF/BN commander: Admiral Heather Warrick was being led to a helicoptor that would take her to the Enterprises Bridge

OOC: I should tell you that i've tried this. Twice. No one on NS, especially those in the Draftroom, will accept it.

( ..........Is this NSdraftroom approved? Unless you are advanced PMT this won't work.)

Stoklomolvi says,

"failbird is fail."

( To actually generate enough thrust would be impossibe. Unless you make it run on like 50000 blimps it won't move an inch)

OOC: The Battlehawks been pouring money into this project for decades, while I realise the Valiant on DW was very big, I've scaled it down a bit, well alot,

OOC - The Valiant could be built with (presumably) cannibalized alien tech.

Not to take anyone's sides but i seen alot of shit on NS and i thought anything was possible here.

Hell BH if you wanted it to be pink and fly with pinwheels and shot flowers its your thread

OOC: Well I was thinking of painting it grey but...

This kind of thing is actually possible. Though it would be militarily unsound. It would have to be incredibly light with the fewest accomidations and smallest aircraft possible. Along with a huge powerplant to generate the power to lift it and power all the systems. Its possible taht its partly a zepplin, to give it most of its lift, and dozens of masive rotors to generate the lift needed, along with probably some underneath jets to give it extra lift. The carrier it self would be incredibly small and automated to keep the weight down and avoid having to carry to much supplies and dedicate to much room to the personnel. He also never siad this was the finished product, just the prototype that should hopefully lead the way for future carriers like it. It probably would also be in the air only a short while and made of extremely light, though strong, titanium. It wouldn't be suitable for a military action because of its size and lack of defenses (Because they weigh far to much to carry) from enemy targets. But it could simply be to lead the way for future designs and possibly become a valid weapon.

Lorraine I guess you are correct.

I don't think it's impossible I just think it's goddamn retarded.

Ignoring the problems with just getting the thing in the air, you will have a major problem with winds at altitude and trying to actually takeoff and land planes.

Planes crashing into blimps as they take off = bad. Plain and simple.

What is the point of having a flying aircraft carrier? One missile and the gassbag deflates. It will be of no use whatsoever in combat.

What is the point of having a flying aircraft carrier? One missile and the gassbag deflates. It will be of no use whatsoever in combat.

I don't think it is meant for front-line combat. Instead, it would make sense as a support unit, that can supply and refuel aircraft without them having to refuel at a far off air field.

It has a purpose. You fly it over the enemy city and if they shoot it down. Well it won't be a city for long.

I should take this time to point out to those who don't watch Dr. Who, the design he's basing it on does not use any form of blimp or airship. It would be based on a normal carrier-style design. Run a GIS for "Valiant Dr. Who" and you should find the BBC artwork for the ship.

I don't think it is meant for front-line combat. Instead, it would make sense as a support unit, that can supply and refuel aircraft without them having to refuel at a far off air field.

After pouring 3 decades of money into this project, I think it would be cheaper to build a fleet of air-to-air tankers.

I should take this time to point out to those who don't watch Dr. Who, the design he's basing it on does not use any form of blimp or airship. It would be based on a normal carrier-style design. Run a GIS for "Valiant Dr. Who" and you should find the BBC artwork for the ship.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Valiant

What is the point of having a flying aircraft carrier? One missile and the gassbag deflates. It will be of no use whatsoever in combat.
One word: Advertising.

One word: Advertising.

even better. Just to say you got one. Like when we got the nuke. What use was it? It had none. It was expensive, difficult to build, and killed less people than one night of fire-bombing tokyo, but it was so fucking cool to look at.

Oh yeah, the Doc who thing ain't happening. Not a chance in hell that thing would get off the ground. ooh, i got an idea... ONE GIANT ROTOR! Make it a REALLY big helo... now THAT would be cool.

A g i a n t h e l i c o p t e r!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like when we got the nuke. What use was it? It had none. It was expensive, difficult to build, and killed less people than one night of fire-bombing tokyo, but it was so fucking cool to look at.
Actually, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rather cost effective, given the cost of the dozens of bombers shot down in a single attack on Tokyo, plus fuel, plus cost of munitions, etc.. You also have to take into account that Hiroshima was a much less densely populated target than Tokyo (one of several reasons for Hiroshima's selection as a target), which greatly effected the casualty figures.

Also, the psychological impact of a weapon that can literally erase a city if you let so much as one bomber through can't be denied, as there is effectively no defense against such a weapon (let alone a MIRVed ICBM, but that's even more off topic than I am right now). That was the primary point of its use in Japan: Pounding home the fact that if the Japanese continued to resist, their archipelago would be completely leveled.

Anyway, back on topic, no way anything like this would fly. Even assuming the thing was only around the size of a Wasp amphibious assault ship, you're still looking at lifting 40,500 tonnes into the air.

Ha ha ho ho ha ha! And people say I've got bad jokes! - Joker, Dark Knight, 2008


Hey! How come when I created my beast, no-one decided to come and say: '

'Dah...Your a nOOb!'
'One missile will take it out!' or
'Duh...why didn't I think of it first?' - my answer - 'Coz your brain is the size of a peanut'

Anyhow on a serious note. I've used about 8 during all combat missions alongside aerial warships, all of these have worked. I used hover technology in a PMT nation and its being accepted amongest other nations. Also, personally, I really don't give a f*** about what the NSDraftroom says because I'm not selling it.

The first major conflict my aerial aircraft carrier was used, was in the Rynibar Conflict and nobody really noticed I had one operating during the attack at Underhill Harbour. I use mine for support and luanching aircraft. Anyhow, these are useful since some of my long range aircraft require a longer runway than those on the ground.

My opioin: Nicely done! I still perfer mine though.

Well, If its supposed to be PMT tech then thats fine, but if you use it in modern RPs, then its totally impossible. unless its
AGIANTHELOCOPTER!

Yay me.

Hey! How come when I created my beast, no-one decided to come and say: '

'Dah...Your a nOOb!'
'One missile will take it out!' or
'Duh...why didn't I think of it first?' - my answer - 'Coz your brain is the size of a peanut'
Possibly because you're a bunch of werewolves and vampires and all suspension of disbelief went out the window about the time people started walking around with furry buttplugs jammed up their arses?

Otagia, point out where I have to be Human. Why are you even picking on a guy with less post than you? It always seem when a good idea comes up, nations with more posts tend to bully the nation that came up with the idea until he drops it.

Oh, you don't have to. It just kinda disqualifies you from being taken seriously. I'm all for including vampires and werewolves and such in RPs, but they're monsters, for crying out loud: Best taken in moderation, and shouldn't be actually seen until you want your audience to shit their pants in terror. Just plopping down a bunch of werewolves and going "HAI GUYZ WE R WARWULFZ!" just kinda ruins any and all suspension of disbelief.

Anyway, off the subject of the proper use of horror elements in literature, I'm not picking on him. Merely pointing out that MT NS has some basic guidelines in place that you typically have to follow to be able to RP with the general population: Namely, it has to actually work.

Also, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that flying carriers are a good idea. They're not. People have tried it. They failed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Akron_(ZRS-4)). Failed epically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Macon_(ZRS-5)). They're huge, they're impossible to defend, and they carry a grand total of four insanely small aircraft, which have extreme problems taking off and landing.

OOC: I should tell you that i've tried this. Twice. No one on NS, especially those in the Draftroom, will accept it.

OOC: I will if it's at least semi-reasonably written.

Just plopping down a bunch of werewolves and going "HAI GUYZ WE R WARWULFZ!" just kinda ruins any and all suspension of disbelief.

Lynion is right. He doesn't have to be human at all, it's a free-form RPing game.

OOC: Thank you Allanea for pointing that out. I would like to point out the vampires and werewolves don't have any kind of powers. They only live longer than Humans.

Now, if you don't mind I'm going to make the only serious post.

IC:


TO: Battlehawk Government
FROM: Vamperial Kingdom of Lynion, Vamperial Grand Aerial Headmaster Lee King

I have being informed of your current attempts to make an aerial aircraft carrier. I would like to point out that this was stressful and painful for our own engineers to develop. Nevertheless, we managed to deploy a wide range of aerial warships. This was because of the hover technology we gained from other nations and developed it into our own.

I would like to make a request that we send one of our own aerial carriers and engineers to help you develop your own. I'm not saying you can't develop them, I'm giving you an offer to get it right first go. We went through hundreds of designs until we found the perfect layout of the carrier.

Oh, you don't have to. It just kinda disqualifies you from being taken seriously.

OOC: Hold on, I've being taken seriously! Here's some topic's I've found and...oh look...I've found my thread about the Valient


Visit to Lynion from Roma V

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=560168

Werewolf and Vampire mention

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=562749

Change of Command

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=565153

Riots in Gibberish America

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=568635

Embassies in Lynion

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559086

Aerial Aircraft Carrier

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=558783

Lynion is right. He doesn't have to be human at all, it's a free-form RPing game.

OOC: Yeah, I find RPing with Lynion fine. I can take him seriously, perhaps more so than some nations who don't have any element of fantasy. I do. An organistation based on both the TV show Heroes and the PS3 game Resistance 2, giving rise to people with seriously fucked-up DNA, abilities and the threat that they might mutate into some scary shit if they don't get special inhibitor treatment.

This thread has also reminded me to restart my Liberty Defence Tower program.

As for what you said Allanea, maybe NSD could come up with a design for one, as you seem to know what you're talking about. Or at least give advice on how to make it work, rather than marching in here and stamping all slightly unrealistic designs "Unapproved!"

See, the one i've currently got in service is based on the one from Ace Combat 6. But, as with all of these AACs, getting them to take off and land whilst in mid air is the problem. But because of the design of mine, it is able to land on water too. So rather than, say, if you needed to move a carrier from a dock in California to a dock in New York, you have to sail all the way around America. But with one that flies, you bypass ages spent trawling the oceans.

OOC: I will if it's at least semi-reasonably written.

OOC: This is basically my view on the subject. I'm quite willing to sacrifice perfect realism for cool factor.

OOC:
This thread has also reminded me to restart my Liberty Defence Tower program.

OOC: Hell yes. I have no clue what that is, but is sounds like something I can fire missiles at.

An IC response is in order

Ustian Military Command Reactivates Liberty Defence Perimeter Program

In a breaking U-turn today, Military Officials announced the re-activation of the several hundred "Liberty Towers" stationed in a perimeter around Ustio. Officials stated that the re-activation was a response to the Battlehawk's AAC test earlier this week.

The defence towers, 1500 foot towers mounting a radar-controlled flak cannon capable of lobbing concussion shells a distance of 50 miles and quad AA missile launchers, are designed to combat the growing threat of new aerial warships. The towers, that were de-activated last year due to lack of support, are to be turned on by the Prime Minister in a ceremony later this week.

One word: Aigaion.

One word: Aigaion.

Two Words: My Storefront.

Two Words: My Storefront.

Three words: Gaw Attack Carrier!

OOC:
Nothing wrong with flak towers, the germans built a good few during ww2 although they tended to be of the stumpy, actually able to shurg off bomb hits, style rather an overly tall spindly bit of nonsense.

As for aero carriers well it would appear that BH is aware of their laughable nature and if he still wants to use them then great for him.

As for furries/ mythical creatures/non human MT "species" it is again up to you, just as it is up to me that I choose to RP a nation existing in a world only inhabited by humans. There are of course ways we can cross over and RP mainly by indulging in shadowwar/X-files type encounters where agents of governemnt would very successfully hide your existance from my populance (whilst trying to burn you for being unclean deamon spawn of course).

OOC: The modern version of flak towers: Laser towers. :D

As far as nonhuman species go, meh, I don't care if people want to use vampires or werewolves or whatever. Not like there arn't various means to dispatch such beings.

Garlic gas grenade: deadliness with a stink.

Garlic Gas Mine: Goes great on pizza

Silver bullets: Machine guns that shoot shiny things

Silver Bomb: Because before you die you just might want to glitter

If you really want to buil 1,500 foot tall towers that are just perfect for a long range missiles attack, then be my guest. Thats alot of money down the drain just to be blown up by a fighter in the sky, or a tank that just want to blow the damned thing up.

And I would like 3,000 orders of garlic gas mines, the pizza here isn't any good with no Italians around. They are all on break and i can't wait that long.

TO: Vamperial Kingdom of Lynion, Vamperial Grand Aerial Headmaster Lee King
FROM:Battlehawk Government

The Battlehawk would greatly appreciate any assitance you can provide. Although we were hopefuly that it would work we are aware that it may not work and the results would of that would be catastropic. We gratfully accept any help.

I used hover technology in a PMT nation

Ground effect or what?

If you really want to buil 1,500 foot tall towers that are just perfect for a long range missiles attack, then be my guest. Thats alot of money down the drain just to be blown up by a fighter in the sky, or a tank that just want to blow the damned thing up.


OOC: Allow me to point out the flaws in your plan.

1.) The towers, as a general rule, are situated off-shore (Some are located on land, but the point is that if they shoot down a AAC, it doesn't land on a city). Which means to get a tank to them, you would need one that floats. The towers are also armoured against most attacks. Also, my waters are patrolled at all times.

2.) Each tower mounts four AA missile launchers. Even if you defeated my naval defences, there is now way you could penetrate a field of fire from those missiles. Although they were designed to engage AACs, they can engage smaller aircraft just as easily. And because each tower is situated not more than 25 miles away from the next one in the chain, multiple towers can be directed by the radar-controllers to engage single targets.

3.) Again, even if your long range missile could penetrate the CIWS systems on the patrolling ships, you then have to content with the AA missiles, flak cannon and Excaliber

If I thought that a piddling little fighter could drop a bomb on it and destroy it, I wouldn't use them.

OOC:*snip*

OOC: Few slight quibbles here. First, it's not possible to build a structure that can completely resist all possible air delivered munitions.

Second, modern proximity fused AA shells are far superior to flak. >.>;

OOC: Few slight quibbles here. First, it's not possible to build a structure that can completely resist all possible air delivered munitions.

Second, modern proximity fused AA shells are far superior to flak. >.>;

OOC: As to your first point, I know. What I was trying to say was that if any old jet could fly by and drop a small bomb on it and have it fall down, it would be a waste of money. As such, the structures are hardened against most ordnance, though if you could get close enough to drop a bunker buster (Or similar), it would do considerable damage. Obviously, if you were OTT enough to use a nuke on one, that would probably do the trick, as long as Excaliber doesn't shoot it down first.

Secondly, good point.

OOC: Before you bite my head off, the battlehawk has been gathering money and funds for the project for nearly three decades while they waited for sufficiant tech advances to be made, btw, designed like the Valiant from Doctor Who.

Battlehawk News Service

Field testing of the AAC has been confirmed today by the department of defence. The 'Enterprsie project' has been the project of a special devision of the DOD for nearly thirty years. There are concerns that the Carrier will not be able to get off the ground. Once in the air however, hopes are high that it will stay there and not fall out of the sky. The project resulted in the scrapping of dozerns of our older ships that were in the mothballs. These metels were mainly used for the interirior as the outer hull needed to be strong.
In other news...


.

<White House>

"When's the Enterprise due to take-off?" Psdt Daniel Clark asked.
"Launch time is 60 minutes" Theresa Green reported.
"Will it work?" Daniel asked.
"Well, if it doesn't we'll feel the few dozern nuclear reactors explosion here" Thersa commenetd.
"Ahh"

<Top Secret Militry Test Facility>

The Massive form of the enterprise saw light for the first time as the hanger she had been built in was airlifted away. The Enterprise was to have only a skeleton crew and no jets until it was sure that she'd stay in the air.
The Joint BAF/BN commander: Admiral Heather Warrick was being led to a helicoptor that would take her to the Enterprises Bridge




I would suppport and or help finance building this type of carrier

Question: What's to stop me shooting it down with a cruise missile of some kind? It'll hardly be discreet

Question: What's to stop me shooting it down with a cruise missile of some kind? It'll hardly be discreet

Cruise missiles are generally not effective against (rapidly) moving targets.

How fast will such a large and heavy ship be though? And, if it were possible, it would have to slow down to launch aircraft

Just use large aam's..Or a lot of them.

Or both.:p

How fast will such a large and heavy ship be though? And, if it were possible, it would have to slow down to launch aircraft

It doesn't really need to be very fast to dodge a cruise missile effectively.

How about a lot of SAM's or AAM's?

Those work fine. This is why you treat a flying aircraft carrier like a carrier, and not a bomber, if you own one. =p

OOC: Or you, could you know use logic and make the flying aircraft carrier fall out of the sky?

OOC: Or you, could you know use logic and make the flying aircraft carrier fall out of the sky?

Read the thread before you post.

Zeppelins/Blimps are generally retarded for combat in NS but strategic command centers and I guess sub-spotting, but there are much better things for sub spotting.

For submarine spotting, I use a British idea. The British use Harrier jump-jets and fit them with four topedoe's and sonar to detect submarines. I call them Seekers and are really good against ships and submarines.

For submarine spotting, I use a British idea. The British use Harrier jump-jets and fit them with four topedoe's and sonar to detect submarines. I call them Seekers and are really good against ships and submarines.

WTF!!!

Harriers have never been used for ASW work. I think you are getting mixed up with Sea kings and Merlins (i.e. helicopters).

Using a harrier for ASW work as anything but a "shooter" platform in support of other assets would be interesting... (for intresting, read crap).

Heloes are far better for asw work, as they can hover far more effectively than a fixed wing aircraft ever could. Just make sure to give them a escort if flying into contested airspace.

Read the thread before you post.

I did. Or by "thead" do you mean your posts only?

Woot. Another bitchfest over a flying aircraft.

Anyway, here's the deal: using a carrier plan like the Valiant off Dr Who, which I know looks pretty awesome, is currently extremely difficult. The first problem you have to consider is the amount of fuel needed to keep the entire thing afloat. Considering heavy runways and a steel frame to resist missile attacks, we're talking tens of thousands of tonnes of lift. This could, in theory, be achieved by using a helium airship of dimensions approximately 1.5km x 300m.

HOWEVER, this would not solve other severe problems that would make an airborne landing difficult: those being crosswinds at high altitude, and a lower air density making for a longer runway being necessary, or for heavy-duty slowing equipment such as those on aircraft carriers. Even VTOL craft would have difficulty.

I have played the airborne carrier problem by using an airship. Whilst you have all the normal critics who state that airships are rubbish because they think of the Hindenburg, I would beg to differ.
Airships, for a start, have a much higher speed than surface vessels, whilst retaining the same immense ranges. They lack the speed of aircraft, but make up for that in range, and endurance to enemy fire.
Endurance to enemy fire? I can hear already those cackling about what a load of tosh I've just come out with. But it is true. If you fired a missile at an airship of roughly the same size used to take out an aircraft, the damage produced to the gasbag would be minimal - a few gas cells may be ruptured, resulting in the loss of a minor amount of buoyancy. Hit it on the bottom (e.g. with a SAM) and the rate of gas loss is very low due to the driving force that makes an airship work - the gas goes upwards. Even flak cannons would have a hard time damaging the airship.
Even if, with the sheer volume of missile/otherwise fire, you managed to reduce buoyancy to such a level that it starts falling out of the sky or the structure fails (thus crashing it), the enemy has to consider where it would land: even a 300m long airship crash-landing in an urban area would cause utter mayhem.
Add to that the modern countermeasure systems that an airship has the space to carry: sophisticated electronic warfare units and Point Defence Cannons can be mounted on the airship, to intercept missiles and destroy them before they do severe damage.

Thus, the airship is a much tougher nut to crack than originally could be expected. But then to purpose - why have an airship acting as a carrier for aircraft? In my case, due to a large proportion of the nation's air force utilising airships, the Aerocarrier is a rare craft providing interceptor aircraft to an air fleet to deliver both additional protection from fighter aircraft and to possibly (if fighter-bombers are used) supplement the attack capabilities the majority of airships have in spades. Such a craft is a big one, though size allows it to carry a large quantity of defensive cannons for missile interception.

The difference to the design proposed is that it exclusively caters for helicopters and VTOL craft, thus removing the need for a runway. Instead, aircraft are 'caught' whilst travelling at very low speeds with a cable system to move them into place on the airship underside, helping them match speed to raise themselves powered into a large gondola on the underside. Launching is simpler: throw them out the bottom at altitude with the engines started.

The difference to the design proposed is that it exclusively caters for helicopters and VTOL craft, thus removing the need for a runway. Instead, aircraft are 'caught' whilst travelling at very low speeds with a cable system to move them into place on the airship underside, helping them match speed to raise themselves powered into a large gondola on the underside. Launching is simpler: throw them out the bottom at altitude with the engines started.

OOC: This is the main problem, though what you use is a modern interpretation of a design that has been around since the late 1920s. See this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Akron) for what I mean.

In truth, this is NS. If people want to use this sort of stuff, you should let them (I mean everyone, not just Alfegos). Otherwise, you're a bit of a forum/realism nazi.

For submarine spotting, I use a British idea. The British use Harrier jump-jets and fit them with four topedoe's and sonar to detect submarines. I call them Seekers and are really good against ships and submarines.

OOC: Not that i'm going to say don't use them, but it is most definetly not a British idea. Sea King ASW helicopters were created during and after the Falklands Conflict to remedy the problem that the British surface fleet lacked an aircraft that could perform such duties, (as was the Sea King AEW), as aircraft like the S-2 Tracker could not be used due to the design of the Invincible Class Carriers (which were designed with Harriers and Helicopters in mind, and therefore a steam catapult (needed on carriers such as the Nimitz to lauch aircraft like the Tracker) was omitted from the design)

OOC: Alfegos, all you'd really need to kill and airship in to get a Willie Pete round to go off above the airship and let it burn its way down popping the gas bags.

OOC: Alfegos, all you'd really need to kill and airship in to get a Willie Pete round to go off above the airship and let it burn its way down popping the gas bags.

OOC: Actually, if that was to happen, I believe the release of helium would simply suffocate the WP, rendering it basically impotent.

OOC: Actually, if that was to happen, I believe the release of helium would simply suffocate the WP, rendering it basically impotent.

White phosphorous would likely as not be suffocated. Now if it was some other ones I could name, there would not be such a problem, though you have to consider the localised effect of it (i.e only one hole).

OOC: Actually, if that was to happen, I believe the release of helium would simply suffocate the WP, rendering it basically impotent.

OOC: IIRC, WP is coated in some oxide, meaning that like thermite, it won't go out until the reaction is finished. But I could be wrong.

EDIT: After doing some reading, it rapidly oxidizes, not precoated in it.

OOC: I don't care how much money and time you pour into this technology, an aircraft carrier simply does not fly, until you get to FT or Near FT timelines. I don't care how well the posts are written, I would never accept this in an RP I was in. PMT being generally accepted as the next 50 years (but usually I see it defined as 25), this craft does not fit in its boundaries, especially when you consider the global economic crisis and how it will effect military research and development. Alfegos' design is the only "flying aircraft carrier" I really percieve as feasible, but even that design is hardly efficient.

Lynion complains that no one comlains about him using flying ships, and true, I haven't voiced my disapproval, but I generally wouldn't touch his nation with a 10 foot pole. Werewolves and Vampires and Monsters oh my! II definitely doesn't force you to be human, but I find it extremely hard to accept sentient non humans in RP.

Realism plox gtfi my II

OOC: I don't care how much money and time you pour into this technology, an aircraft carrier simply does not fly, until you get to FT or Near FT timelines. I don't care how well the posts are written, I would never accept this in an RP I was in. PMT being generally accepted as the next 50 years (but usually I see it defined as 25), this craft does not fit in its boundaries, especially when you consider the global economic crisis and how it will effect military research and development. Alfegos' design is the only "flying aircraft carrier" I really percieve as feasible, but even that design is hardly efficient.

Lynion complains that no one comlains about him using flying ships, and true, I haven't voiced my disapproval, but I generally wouldn't touch his nation with a 10 foot pole. Werewolves and Vampires and Monsters oh my! II definitely doesn't force you to be human, but I find it extremely hard to accept sentient non humans in RP.

Realism plox gtfi my II

OOC: Ditto

Nationstates RP is almost by definition unrealistic. We have an Earth populated by 100 trillion people with a surface area much exceeding the real world (Haven alone is bigger than the entire RWorld combined) yet the gravity remains the same.

My nation has a variety of elves, hobbits, and nonhumanoid sapients, and yet I manage to RP in a quiet, cooperative fashion.

Don't like it? Don't RP with me or reach some form of arrangement.

I'm with Allanea. On the note of the global economic crisis, since when does that translate into NS if you don't let it? Being a bit of a realism whore myself I'm inclined to agree to Alfegos's design being the really only feasible one, but if he's got the time, money, and economy to produce a flying aircraft carrier, I say let him.
Because I subscribe to a realistic doctrine with my tech doesn't mean that everyone else has to as well. I usually like to entertain ideas like these and if they work, the mark of a truly good RP'er in my opinion is how he/she adapts to this new twist. Then again, I find I'm more open-minded then most NS'ers. I'd have no qualms about RP'ing with hobbits in MT, for instance.

I'm with Allanea. On the note of the global economic crisis, since when does that translate into NS if you don't let it? Being a bit of a realism whore myself I'm inclined to agree to Alfegos's design being the really only feasible one, but if he's got the time, money, and economy to produce a flying aircraft carrier, I say let him.
Because I subscribe to a realistic doctrine with my tech doesn't mean that everyone else has to as well. I usually like to entertain ideas like these and if they work, the mark of a truly good RP'er in my opinion is how he/she adapts to this new twist. Then again, I find I'm more open-minded then most NS'ers. I'd have no qualms about RP'ing with hobbits in MT, for instance.

OOC: I have no problems with hobbits either, but then again, who doesn't love denis kusinich(Or however the hell you spell that)?

Zeppelins/Blimps are generally retarded for combat in NS but strategic command centers and I guess sub-spotting, but there are much better things for sub spotting.

Certainly not true; Animarnia has for decades used Tethered Airships on mountain peaks loaded up with SAM/Heavy AAM's for an enhanced air defence network; while I think that on the whole Battlehawks idea is un-tanable I think Airships on the whole are bloody useful things

especially when you consider the global economic crisis and how it will effect military research and development.

OOC: I'm sorry, there's a global economic crisis in NS? :confused:

But I have to agree, this won't work.

OOC: I'm sorry, there's a global economic crisis in NS? :confused:

But I have to agree, this won't work.

OOC: No, in the real world. If PMT is considered to be MT plus a set number of years, then you would have to factor in how a worldwide cut in military spending due to the recession which would effect when technologies will become reality, thus impacting whether or not they were actually PMT.

OOC: No, in the real world. If PMT is considered to be MT plus a set number of years, then you would have to factor in how a worldwide cut in military spending due to the recession which would effect when technologies will become reality, thus impacting whether or not they were actually PMT.

OOC: *mind blown*

OOC: No, in the real world. If PMT is considered to be MT plus a set number of years, then you would have to factor in how a worldwide cut in military spending due to the recession which would effect when technologies will become reality, thus impacting whether or not they were actually PMT.

The NS world isn't having a recession.

The NS world isn't having a recession.

OOC: Read that post and tell me where I say the NS world is having a recession. What I actually said is that PMT is defined as modern technology + a certain number of years. Modern tech is generally defined as things that exist in rl or could exist in rl. PMT is things that could exist within the next x number of years. If worldwide military budgets in the real world are reduced, which is happening and will continue to happen, you have to logically expect that the rate of development of many technologies will slow down. This could force said technologies to come into effect in the next x + y years, where y is a positive integer. This means that the technology would no longer fit into the PMT time frame. The PMT time frame is not based on what will be feasible in x number of years due to NS research, as obviouslly NS research would progress much more quickly and recieve more funding. Since the PMT time frame is then defined by RL research, you have to take into account RL factors on the development of military (and civilian for that matter) technology, and the recession is a major factor.

Certainly not true; Animarnia has for decades used Tethered Airships on mountain peaks loaded up with SAM/Heavy AAM's for an enhanced air defence network; while I think that on the whole Battlehawks idea is un-tanable I think Airships on the whole are bloody useful things
Another possible use is as AWACS, after all they would be able to stay up for far longer on less fuel than most.

Just make sure to keep them well behind the front lines, and heavily escorted at all times.

OOC: Read that post and tell me where I say the NS world is having a recession. What I actually said is that PMT is defined as modern technology + a certain number of years. Modern tech is generally defined as things that exist in rl or could exist in rl. PMT is things that could exist within the next x number of years. If worldwide military budgets in the real world are reduced, which is happening and will continue to happen, you have to logically expect that the rate of development of many technologies will slow down. This could force said technologies to come into effect in the next x + y years, where y is a positive integer. This means that the technology would no longer fit into the PMT time frame. The PMT time frame is not based on what will be feasible in x number of years due to NS research, as obviouslly NS research would progress much more quickly and recieve more funding. Since the PMT time frame is then defined by RL research, you have to take into account RL factors on the development of military (and civilian for that matter) technology, and the recession is a major factor.

OOC: You're assuming that the economy of NS mirrors that of the real world, when in fact, it does not.

OOC: I think you're all missing Kampfers' point.

The point is that MT is based on ideas being realistically prototyped by year X (we'll take 2020 as an example). Idea Y, when the economy is good, gets plenty of funding from an ample defence budget and may be prototyped by 2018.

However, when the economy tanks (like the current situation), Idea Y gets much less funding and therefore may be put on hold or postponed. So it then may not be prototyped until 2025 - making it securely PMT.

So really, the NS economy is rather tied in to it's RL counterpart - our time and tech boundaries are almost entirely defined by what the current economic climate is.

OOC: You're assuming that the economy of NS mirrors that of the real world, when in fact, it does not.

No, he's assuming that the technology of NS mirrors that of the real world. As economic factors influence the growth of technology, it would stand to reason that RL fluctuations in the economy would indirectly effect NS technology.

No, he's assuming that the technology of NS mirrors that of the real world. As economic factors influence the growth of technology, it would stand to reason that RL fluctuations in the economy would indirectly effect NS technology.

OOC: Wait, so what you're saying is that because the RL world is suffering a recession, it is affecting NS technology?

OOC: Wait, so what you're saying is that because the RL world is suffering a recession, it is affecting NS technology?

OOC: Exactly. See my post.

Nationstates RP is almost by definition unrealistic. We have an Earth populated by 100 trillion people with a surface area much exceeding the real world (Haven alone is bigger than the entire RWorld combined) yet the gravity remains the same.

My nation has a variety of elves, hobbits, and nonhumanoid sapients, and yet I manage to RP in a quiet, cooperative fashion.

Don't like it? Don't RP with me or reach some form of arrangement.

This isn't the point, same goes with the LOL RECESSION O NOES stuff. What everyone seems to be forgetting is that handwaving something that's basically fantasy tech as PMT is uh...

This isn't the point, same goes with the LOL RECESSION O NOES stuff. What everyone seems to be forgetting is that handwaving something that's basically fantasy tech as PMT is uh...

OOC: So it's fantasy. Again, big deal. This is NS, and if people want to say that their nation is suffering from a recession due to RL reasons, they can - but it doesn't mean it applies to everyone else (for example, isolationist nations or those with strict trade laws would not be affected by a global recession). In the same way that if BH wants to have a AAC, he can.

OOC: So it's fantasy. Again, big deal. This is NS, and if people want to say that their nation is suffering from a recession due to RL reasons, they can - but it doesn't mean it applies to everyone else (for example, isolationist nations or those with strict trade laws would not be affected by a global recession). In the same way that if BH wants to have a AAC, he can.

OOC: You have completely misunderstood everything that has been said. No one is RPing their NS nation suffering from a recession, I have repeatedly explained my position and I'm too tired of restating it to do so again. People who actually read my posts thouroughly have understood. And it is a big deal. Regardless of my point about a recession effecting when predicted technology becomes reality, Flying Aircraft Carriers are well out of the realm of PMT. If he wants to RP it, sure, he can, but he can take it to FT, Fantasy, or the nonsensical mixed tech RPs.

In the same way that if BH wants to have a AAC, he can.
Quite true. In the same vein, if I see one in an RP, I'll happily pull out a few hundred Starfuries and their White Star mothership to shoot at it.

As it seems to have caused so much contravesy I'll ditch it and use the money for something else

Quite true. In the same vein, if I see one in an RP, I'll happily pull out a few hundred Starfuries and their White Star mothership to shoot at it.

OOC: Funnily enough, that's exactly what someone did to me when I first used one.

OOC: Funnily enough, that's exactly what someone did to me when I first used one.
See, stuff like that happening in a supposedly MT/PMT RP generally means ur doin it wrong.

See, stuff like that happening in a supposedly MT/PMT RP generally means ur doin it wrong.

OOC: Now, as some people may know, I have a certain amount of respect for most veterans on II. But I say most, as making unhelpful posts such as that one must be why some people say that some of the vets are elitists, only ever concerned with the utmost realism. If all you want is realism, fine, just don't come into these threads cutting players down because you don't like it.

That's nice. So, can you actually make a logical argument on how using Babylon 5 tech in a modern tech (or even post modern) environment is even possible? Because I really don't see gravity distortion beams as likely to occur in the next 50 years.

Alright when elaborated Kampfers has a really valid point. A global recession in RL doesn't stop NS tech advancement but puts it on hold at worst and slows it at best as tech they're based on is pushed back due to RL budget cuts.

For instance let's use the UAV. If there's one due to be prototyped later this year but the recession has caused military spenders to put the money in something more immediately needed like tanks, the project goes into mothballs until the money to pick it back up is present. If you were developing say, the 'next generation' of this UAV, you'd have a severe lack of stats because not only has the original inspiration not been tested, but it hasn't even flown once and is now set to be picked up again in about 2020. Without the concrete stats of a proven model, you only have extrapolation and guessing to back you up. Again this could be tied into the Realism vs. Fantasy debate, but *shrugs* to each their own.

EDIT: Personally this would hamper my efforts in the field since I'm a realism fan, but the point is moot anyway as BH dropped the project.