NationStates Jolt Archive

I've created this thread as a request for advice. What I need it on is how to make an effective missile defence system to defend against attacks ranging from cruise missiles and bombs to mass nuke spamming. This includes what kind of equipment, RL or NS, to use. As it will need to be affordable, I've included a link so you know how much I have available here (http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=osea+767). Any advice given will be appreciated.

I've created this thread as a request for advice. What I need it on is how to make an effective missile defence system to defend against [...] mass nuke spamming.

It's called [closed].

if you want actual equipment quite a few storefronts sell anti missiles satellites for nukes and the like such as Universal Defense (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Universal_Defense/index.php?showtopic=43&st=0)

I don't see anything in your storefront save from renamed images, Chazaka. Take a look here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=571885) for example; the products for sale are original designs and images produced by the player, which makes them unique and thus creates demand amongst the NS community. Anyone can rename an image or say they've got RL equipment, but not everyone has the time or expertise to design machines from nothing, that's why they sell.

If you need more examples of proper storefronts I could throw together several links for you. If you want your storefront to be recognized as realistic and thus applicable to MT, then your designs should really be run through the NS Draftroom (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?act=idx) else employing equipment unnaproved and thus unrealistic would be considered godmodding.

What I do is, instead of buying masses of nuclear weapons (Though I do have a generally large nuclear arsenal) I use the money saved on not buying nukes and investing into anti-nuke spam. The best way to combat spam is to spam whatever counters the original spam, right?

So, I've got over a hundred SBL systems in space, over 3000 ABL planes that can hit an ICBM before they're out of visual range of their silo, plus random ground-laser sites and hordes of anti-ICBM missiles. To combat cruise missiles and whatnot, my cities each have slews of CIWS and counter-missile systems, as well as launch detection programs that can tell where the projectile came from (Only for certain munitions), then I hit them with my own ordinance.

Of course, assuming you aren't (And don't want to be) as militarized as me, I recommend CIWS spam on your border, as well as a few in each city, depending on size of course. For ICBM defense, you can open air bases in foreign countries (With their permission, of course) to station ABLs at. Plus, you could do something kind of odd like taking over tiny uninhabited islets and building weapons stations and detection systems there.

The main thing you might want to know is that the closer to the source you shoot the missile down, the safer you are. To do this, it's good to have just about every part of the world covered by your detection systems like I do.

As for particular CIWS systems, I recommend Skyguard (THE RL ONE WITH GROUND LASERS AND SHIT, NOT THE NS ONE, AS I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT IN PARTICULAR), Skyshield (By Rheinmetall), PHALANX, and Metal Storm (36 barreled gun by an Australian company of the same name. Plus, that gun can be carried by trucks).

CIWS isnt going to do much against an ICBM... and frankly i doubt ABL planes will do much either given the scope of the NSEarth. Unless you are telling me that your planes regularly route through Haven, there is no way, for example, they could be in range of my ICBM silos. And if you are telling me that, then you need to consider how much it would cost to route them there.

CIWS spam on your border won't do much either, I'll just send planes over your border before firing...

Which is why AA systems, air patrols, etc. are in place as well; I was only addressing the cruise missile threat with such. An air attack without missile strikes against AA systems would be suicide. And by shooting the missiles down, the AA systems remain safe.

And from what I read, Haven is located in the middle of the NSPacific. Either way, your ICBMs would still have to head for my country; in doing so, they get within the extraordinarily long reach of ABLs. Essentially, if the ICBM is within the same hemisphere, it's generally within range. Given the size of NSEarth, the curvature would also be far flatter; that would mean an even longer range of the ABLs.

GWO, TG for you. Also, Haven borders the Arctic at one point, so I'm not sure about the middle of the pacific.

I edited my post Falk, s/he/it was talking about mine. I had originally linked mine, but s/he/it's right about the storefront so I removed the link. I am working on getting stuff approved in draftroom and most of my future tech is original(at least compared to my modern tech so far, which reminds me I need to ask if converting a carrier into a hospital ship is possible(i think its a waste of a carrier but the customer is always right)


my original offer of:
we take special requests such as a antimissile ground based stuff, but it will probably won't be available for awhile(depends if I get relatives over or not for Christmas) and you'd need to know some specifics of what you want your defense ground to do(such as do you want to use lasers or kinetic weapons(missiles and the like)
is still available Osea 767

TG'ed back, Leistung.

OOC: Oh, ok, lol. My bad!

And from what I read, Haven is located in the middle of the NSPacific. Either way, your ICBMs would still have to head for my country; in doing so, they get within the extraordinarily long reach of ABLs. Essentially, if the ICBM is within the same hemisphere, it's generally within range. Given the size of NSEarth, the curvature would also be far flatter; that would mean an even longer range of the ABLs.

Incorrect, actually. The limitation of a lasers range isn't so much the curvature of the earth as scattering from interaction with the atmosphere, focusing issues, and beam diffusion. The ABL has a max range of about 300 kilometers (far shorter than the distance to the horizon at cruising altitude, let alone to a missile already ascending), and is really only useful against missiles still in the launch phase.

Given that Haven is roughly 46,500 kilometers wide, you're going to have severe issues getting within range, as you're going to have to be in hostile airspace by the time you fire, not to mention crossing numerous potentially unfriendly countries just to get there.

And from what I read, Haven is located in the middle of the NSPacific.

And it still finds the time to be considerably larger than the real life earth, in fact, it is 46 times wider than the equatorial radius of the earth.

And this is one region. If your lasers can hit things when they're first launched, you're going to be needing to fry through the horizon, the crust, the mantle, and all that unpleasant surface that makes the earth a round ball.

You'd need to be in Haven to even try to shoot.

And by then you would've probably been shot down.

Beyond that, Close-In Weapons Systems, designed for anti-missile defense on ships and possessing extremely short ranges, will have absolutely no effect on intercontinental ballistic missiles because they will not have the time to react nor the range nor the power to blast through a re-entry vehicle designed to be hard to destroy.

Chazaka, I will get a few. However, I'm more interested in anti ballistic missiles, possibly nuclear tipped.

Bump

Chazaka, I will get a few. However, I'm more interested in anti ballistic missiles, possibly nuclear tipped.

Why would you shot down a nuclear warhead with another? That just causes all kinds of problems.

unless you mean. hmm

Actually Russia's moscow missile defence system (http://www.missilethreat.com/missiledefensesystems/id.7/system_detail.asp)uses interceptor missiles with nuclear warheads.

Yes, but those interceptor misisles weren't nuclear tipped.

Actually, they were. The later Nike missiles were as well, as were Spartan and Sprint.

It says that the russian's removed the original nuclear warheads from the short-range Gazelle interceptors because they feared that a low-altitude nuclear explosion would contaminate a 77-square-mile area, making Moscow virtually unlivable. They were fitted with nukes.

When I asked myself this same questions, I ended up doing research about real-world ABM systems. At first I was going to just use Sprint and Spartan missiles, until the side-effects (such as EMP risks) were pointed out. So I updated the designs, replacing the nuclear payloads with kinetic energy interceptors. You can also look at space-based anti-missile systems, such as Brilliant Pebbles (true, the program was cancelled due to a lack of funding, but for most NS nations that is not a problem) or even space-based lasers if you want to.

As GWO mentioned, airborne laser systems (such as the chemical lasers the U.S. Air Force experimented with) would be useful if you could get your planes (generally large, converted civilian airliners) within approximately 200-300 miles of the silo, though it would basically require your forces achieve air superiority before committing such an asset to the field.

For cruise missiles, the best defense is a good offense, to be cliche. Don't let anyone close enough to launch them at you. That being said, for ships and conventional military formations, your best bets would be SAMs and AA guns/CIWS. Your SAMs would have to either achieve a very difficult skin-skin contact kill, or a (very) slightly less difficult proximity kill by detonating just in front of the missile. CIWS/AA guns would simply spit out a stream of ammunition until hitting the target.

For protecting your nation proper, while ringing the entire coast with CIWS/AA systems would be sufficient, the sheer cost of such a program would be monumental. Keep in mind that these are precision weapons, so in time of war their deployment will be against a limited set of predictable targets. After all, would you target a million dollar missile at a random apartment in downtown [insert city here], or would you target it at the one of the telecommunications hubs providing command and control for your enemy's entire military?

In that case, your best bet is to maintain local air/missile defenses, and use the extra money to harden your facilities. Move essential functions underground, into hardened bunkers. Set up decoy sites. Invest in some GPS/radar jammers. Avoid the Evil Overlord Syndrome, where you concentrate everything important into one easily-destructible location.

If you want specific weapons to use, many others have already commented on the basics for NS. Lasers, ground-based interceptors, SAMs and CIWS. But having the ability to weather an incoming cruise missile strike and rapidly re-establish whatever capabilities were lost are equally important.

Salzland, that was usefull. However, I could use the names of specific weaponry to use.

"Ringing the coastline with CIWS" would be basically like having a bunch of machine gun nests on your coast and firing upward. The range of the average CIWS is something like 500 meters.

Your best bet is to intercept the missiles before they come anywhere close to your nation with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles (or normal cruise missiles). I personally equip a large number of my destroyers with the Aegis ABM system plus SM-3 missiles for that very purpose.

That's also usefull. But my nation uses Soviet/Warsaw pact SAMs. Which type should I use?

I honestly don't know much about non-Western equipment, but I think there's a variation of the S-300 missile to shoot down ballistic missiles.

S-400 Triumf above all.

Yes I already use that. But from what I know, it's useless against ICBMs. From what I'm being told, I guess my defence should consist of SH-11 ABM-4 Gorgon long range interceptors to intercept missiles as far away as possible, S-400s with other SAMs, CIWS/AA systems and Aeigis eqipped ships like Arleigh Burke Destroyers equipped with SM-3 missiles(my navy presently uses NATO ships and equipment). I might use some lasers. I could use fighters to destroy any bombers before they launch their attack. I should also move essential functions underground into hardened bunkers, set up decoy sites and invest in some GPS/radar jammers. Is this correct or is there anything else to add?

Salzland, that was usefull. However, I could use the names of specific weaponry to use.

Okay, I saw that you use Eastern Bloc equipment. I'll be the first one to admit that my knowledge on Russian weapons is not very significant, but I'll do the best that I can. Note that much of this information is courtesy of Wikipedia (I'm using the family PC at the moment, so my researching time is limited). Please feel free to research what I say independently, as especially in the area of Eastern Bloc weapons systems my personal knowledge is quite limited.

As has already been noted, any Eastern-style air defense grid will have the S-300 (better yet, the upgraded S-400) Surface to Air Missile system at its core. Its estimated engagement range extends to 250 miles, making it capable of limited strategic and tactical ballistic missile interception as well as capable of engaging enemy aircraft at long ranges. The newest model (the Triumf) has only entered service in the last few years so its capabilities in actual wartime conditions are unknown (to the best of my limited knowledge on the subject), though they in all likelihood will be comparable to most of the Western and NS-designed equipment currently in use.

You should look into the 9K22 (SA-19) 'Tunguska' for close range anti-air defenses, specifically to protect your front line troop formations from low-flying strike aircraft (such as the A-10 Warthog and its NS-designed equivalents), as well as attack helicopters. Your infantry could also use 9K38 'Igla' man-portable infrared tracking SAMs, though they will have a very short range (roughly 3 miles or so). There are other Soviet-era systems that are used to fill in the gap between the long-ranged S-300 and the short-ranged infantry systems I've mentioned, which would be best filled by your own personal tastes. Specifically, whether you're looking for a strong fixed network for defending your nation, or a powerful mobile force used to support offensive operations against an enemy country.

Beyond that, the best thing you could do would be to look at NS storefronts and see what they have to offer in the form of anti-missile systems. Several offer orbital anti-ballistic missile systems, namely lasers (Aequatio and Falkasia come to mind), or you could take a RL design and customize it to your tastes.

I hope this helps, and if there's anything else I can do to help feel free to ask.

"Ringing the coastline with CIWS" would be basically like having a bunch of machine gun nests on your coast and firing upward. The range of the average CIWS is something like 500 meters.

They make a decent backup to missile systems and whatnot, however.

I already use the 9K22 Tunguska for air defence and protection of my troops(it's what I mean't when I referred to AA systems).

In that case, it sounds like you're off to a good start already. Remember that layering your defenses (long ranged defenses backed up by medium-long, backed up by medium, backed up by medium-short, etcetera) will help a great deal in not only preventing you from being overwhelmed, but also protect you from a wider range of threats. For example, using long-ranged radar guided SAMs as your first line of defense, supplemented by shorter-ranged radar guided and heat-seaking SAMs as support. Those systems would then be backed up by the AA guns and CIWS systems, both as a last ditch defense as well as a more-reliable anti-missile system.

One thing that I would recommend would be to research the capabilities of the weapons systems you're being attacked by. For example, a 10,000 (as an example) Tomahawk cruise missile spam is pretty intimidating. Realizing that the Tomahawk only travels at about 500 miles per hour however, and knowing that they've been launched at a range of 500 miles (for this example) will give you an entire hour (in the role-play) to respond before the first missiles begin to hit their targets. Nothing's more frustrating than launching a (literally) $56 Billion cruise missile strike, only to find that all of your targets have been evacuated and you've only hit some easily-replacable buildings.

Again, feel free to ask if there's anything else I can do to help.

You have been helpfull. Looks like I need to do a bit of research.

Pretty much what Salzland said. A layered defense system consisting of both space and ground based installations is a must.

Of course, one could argue that diplomacy is the best defense; if you have a lot of friends, people may be hesitant to nuke you because of what might happen to them. Likewise, if you don't go around making enemies, you probably won't have to worry about it so much.