NationStates Jolt Archive

Note: This will work ONLY if you have it so that your countries is set up so that military service is mandatory


Take your total population.
Divide by 4.
Simple as that.

You forgot the "assume your IC economic rating is 6 levels below the informed one in your NS description page" part.

Cool.
Thanks. =)

I used to try and figure out how many troops my economy would support, then i realized that since everyone has to srve, what difference does it make? at least, that is until the WA puts a limit on the size of your military.

Is this a troll? I suspect it might be, but I'm not sure.....

Wait 25% wha????? man 15 . . .absolute max=15

No. It is simply an alternative form to the typical, "use the economy to find out how many troops you have" system." i find it works very well.

You can actually have a 50% army, if you RP your "Frightening" economy as an Imploded one, and have most of them armed with cheap AK clones and transported by horses and mules.

At 25% economy would be quite hurt too. RL North Korea is a good example, and even them don't have 25% of their population in the military.

Wait 25% wha????? man 15 . . .absolute max=15

15%? maybe, but then you have people who would forget. It is easier to simply keep it at 1/4. true, lage nations will take advanatge of this, but since I have under 300 million...

You can actually have a 50% army, if you RP your "Frightening" economy as an Imploded one, and have most of them armed with cheap AK clones and transported by horses and mules.

At 25% economy would be quite hurt too. RL North Korea is a good example, and even them don't have 25% of their population in the military.

50% lol. i used to think that but i realized that there wouldn;t be an RP war on here where you would be called down for having more than your fair share of troops on the battlefield. I have found that 25% is the most anyone will allow.

Guess I wasn't sufficiently clear on why this is a silly idea:

There is nothing wrong with 25% of the population in active military if your nation's economy is similar to that of RL Sierra Leone's.

And honestly, a minor fraction of my 0.2% active military would have large chances of defeating yours, even outnumbered at 40:1 because of their excessive trust in their skills, as a 25% active military would be seriously underfunded, poorly equipped, motorized and trained, becoming easy prey to a mobile, well-organized and highly-effective smaller force.

*Edit: Mandatory reference to the fact bigger is not necessarily better.

http://www.smilespedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/27011.jpg

Guess I wasn't sufficiently clear on why this is a silly idea:

There is nothing wrong with 25% of the population in active military if your nation's economy is similar to that of RL Sierra Leone's.

And honestly, a minor fraction of my 0.2% active military would have large chances of defeating yours, even outnumbered at 40:1 because of their excessive trust in their skills, as a 25% active military would be seriously underfunded, poorly equipped, motorized and trained, becoming easy prey to a mobile, well-organized and highly-effective smaller force.

perhaps, but you are negleting the fact that i have been an RPer for the past 13 years (mind you it has been awhile since i have been in an RP war on here) and the fact that my nation is FT... you know, Star Wars tech.

Plus the fact that they would be dying of hunger...

ah. now there is your problem. You thought you would be smart and use NS2 stats. This is NS. you can't use that stuff here. (or is it CN?)

that is until the WA puts a limit on the size of your military.

an we would not give a shit on what they say

ah. now there is your problem. You thought you would be smart and use NS2 stats. This is NS. you can't use that stuff here. (or is it CN?)

Actually RL, but never you mind.

Ah, I see. Wait, did he just mistake WW statistics for NS2? It says Winter War at the top, you realize?

*sigh* i suddenlly remember why i stopped playing this in favor of that moderating job...

Not here, surely.

http://xs232.xs.to/xs232/08425/...no516.gif

Not here, surely.

good lord no or else i wouldn;t be having this pointless conversation. Different website altogether. why do you not like the 25% plan anyways? on NS it is impossible to tell how strong your economy is. On NS2 it is possible, and on CN you do in fact have a limited number of troops. but for NS, you are limited by only what is pratical.

perhaps, but you are negleting the fact that i have been an RPer for the past 13 years (mind you it has been awhile since i have been in an RP war on here) and the fact that my nation is FT... you know, Star Wars tech.

Not really, because none of that makes a shred of difference to the fact that if you force a quarter of your population into the military, your economy will be fucked.

Not really, because none of that makes a shred of difference to the fact that if you force a quarter of your population into the military, your economy will be fucked.

read the post above yours. anyways, its better than some smart people who think 50% is ok

good lord no or else i wouldn;t be having this pointless conversation. Different website altogether. why do you not like the 25% plan anyways? on NS it is impossible to tell how strong your economy is. On NS2 it is possible, and on CN you do in fact have a limited number of troops. but for NS, you are limited by only what is pratical.

And 25% of your population in the army is not practical at all.

There should not be a concrete formula that everyone should use to determine their military. Using anything based off of stats from you NS page or the various calculators is unreasonable, because the issues that are used to determine such stats are rarely applicable unless your nation conforms exactly to the norms of a RL Western industrialized country. It is also impossible to accurately abstract the economic and social aspects of a nation of billions in an indefinitely large world.

Calculations for army size should only be used in situations where a noob might be involved or you want to be competitive. Afterall, RPing is not about winning or losing. Losses are completely subjective to the other side and there is no real way to control it. Focusing excessively on stats is ultimately harmful to the RP.

And 25% of your population in the army is not practical at all.

not to put you down or anything, but can you think of anything else? like i said, if this was NS2 or CN it would be easy to find out. Here it is not.

There should not be a concrete formula that everyone should use to determine their military. Using anything based off of stats from you NS page or the various calculators is unreasonable, because the issues that are used to determine such stats are rarely applicable unless your nation conforms exactly to the norms of a RL Western industrialized country. It is also impossible to accurately abstract the economic and social aspects of a nation of billions in an indefinitely large world.

Calculations for army size should only be used in situations where a noob might be involved or you want to be competitive. Afterall, RPing is not about winning or losing. Losses are completely subjective to the other side and there is no real way to control it. Focusing excessively on stats is ultimately harmful to the RP.

You know what? That is the first smart thing anyone has said tonight! Good job!

not to put you down or anything, but can you think of anything else? like i said, if this was NS2 or CN it would be easy to find out. Here it is not.

That's hardly an excuse to suddenly declare that 25% of your population is in the military. Have you been reading the other posts (or the stickies) at all? Taking the information found there, looking at the statistics for similar nations on wikipedia....it's not that hard.

You know what? That is the first smart thing anyone has said tonight! Good job!

This is one of the best Freudian slips I've ever read.

And the way the replies are coming is a bit revealing on the possibility this is not an innocent thread.

So if your entire population is fighting, where's the rations coming from?

In a word, no. In two words, fuck no. In eleven, what have you been smoking and where can I get some?

Look at real numbers. There are a few countries with militaries running around 25% of their population. Like North Korea, who maintains a grand total of 5% of their pop in active service. Their economy is worse than Zimbabwe's. Zimbabwe. You know, the country with inflation measured in the millions of percent? So yes, go ahead and have a 25% military. It'll just get its ass handed to it by a Ethiopian goatherd with a pointy stick.

So if your entire population is fighting, where's the rations coming from?

From where the sun doesn't shine, I suppose. Where else CAN they come from?

You're real funny. Typo.

You're real funny. Typo.

Wait, where?

I put where is, instead of where are. I thought that's what you were making fun of.

I didn't even notice that.....

I was just saying where I thought the rations came from....

Only place his could come from, 'cept no one is even picking those up, their too busy fighting the goatherd and getting their asses handed to 'em.

http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=569430

Could it be just a coincidence the Star Wars motifs coupled with extremely poor and short starting posts?

Some difference in the typing style, but not so much so it couldn't be faked.

Here's the mathematical reason why 25% of your population in the military is just plain stupid.

If you're anything like any modern country in age structure, only 65-70% maximum of your population is of workable age, that is 15 to 65. If you're in the "future" then you have a much higher percentage of old people who can't work, it's a demographic shift that happens to all nations. So then you;d end up with 50-60% of your population of workable age maximum.

But let's take the 65-70%. Let's assume old-age care in your nation is abhorant and nearing the level of human rights abuse, so you have 70% of your population as workable. If you have a population of 100,000,000 then you have a total avalible workforce of 70,000,000. Now you want a 25% military? Let's cut that down then from 70,000,000 to 45,000,000 workers avalible. So you are now a country working with less then half it's population being productive and supporting the economy. Add in the normal ~5% unemployment and you have 40% of your population actually being productive. More then 1/3rd of your entire workable population is unproductive. Your economy will collapse then, as your nation is attempting to provide for 70,000,000 workers with 40,000,000, it can't do it.

Now contrast to a nation of the same population and demographics, with 5% (The historical NS MAXIMUM) of it's population in the military. That means that of that potential 70,000,000 workers, 60,000,000 are actually being productive. Meaning an effective $20,000,000 more workers within the economy, and thus meaning higher productivity, even if the workers in both countries only do the same poor job. But considering the higher percentage able to branch off in the second nation, allowing more consumer, luxury, and other goods which can increase both quality of life and worker motivation, then the second nation not only has more workers being productive, it has happier workers being more productive. More productive means more money, means better funding for the forces, means better training and equipment, means the second nation just kicked your ass in a war because his troops are better trained, motivated, equipped, and led, then yours.

25% population in the military is just dumb.

Ok, to settle this once and for all, because i am going to drop this once and for all and have my military the way i want it, i will settle several things.
One: I had no idea anyone would even look at this. i mean really, how many people on NS actually settle things with an RP war anymore? not that many when you look at the big picture.
Two: There is no way in hell i am related to Dagobah V. First of, this guy is an idiot if he was trying to pass himself off as a Star Wars nation.. he should be selling At-ATs, not tanks. Which by the way, is why i would not get my behind handed to me by a goatherder with a stick.
Three: Techniclly, if i wanted to, i could have my nation at 100% military, with the way the region i am in has things set up. I don;t because how would you like to have 360 million Stormtroopers marching down on your head, complete with At-St and At-AT escort? not nice to think about.

Two: There is no way in hell i am related to Dagobah V. First of, this guy is an idiot if he was trying to pass himself off as a Star Wars nation.. he should be selling At-ATs, not tanks. Which by the way, is why i would not get my behind handed to me by a goatherder with a stick.
You're right. Against AT-ATs and storm troopers, he wouldn't need the stick.

You're right. Against AT-ATs and storm troopers, he wouldn't need the stick.

i have 300 million elite ewok commandos. when do I start.

http://xs232.xs.to/xs232/08432/ewokwut439.gif

that's right. he would need a Jedi. :sniper:

i have 300 million elite ewok commandos. when do I start.

http://xs232.xs.to/xs232/08432/ewokwut439.gif

i gotta admit, that was a good one... now i've got to ask you guys a question... you don't seem like the type to have an RP war... so why are you so riled up about this?

^

that thing is fucking creepy..

OOC: I don't go above 1 percent of my nation's population in active duty military service during peacetime. I barely scrape 2 percent during wartime. Of course, having over 7 billion people rather precludes me from having more than 5 percent of my population in the military at any one time.

OOC: I don't go above 1 percent of my nation's population in active duty military service during peacetime. I barely scrape 2 percent during wartime. Of course, having over 7 billion people rather precludes me from having more than 5 percent of my population in the military at any one time.

well ya . . .less you just wanna steamroll us smaller nations :(

OK, honestly, how do you expect to pay, feed and provide ammunition for all of these soldiers hm? You need people to do that. You need a lot of people to do that. In fact, even if you had 400 million people in your army, less than 150 of them would be actual soldiers fighting. So, you are forgetting logistics. You are also forgetting the fact that your government needs to get the money to pay and feed these people through taxes or bonds. Bonds would be illogical as your government would just be driving itself deeper and deeper into debt without taxation. By taxing people on your pay role you aren't creating any sort of income - you are paying the people less. So you need to have a portion of the population in the private sector.

With 100 million of 400 million people in your military, plus, say another million or so on government payroll to administer the stuff (way more if you have public education, public healthcare and other services the government provides in most western nations) then you have only 299 million people to tax. That number is further reduced because about 20% of your entire nation is probably a minor which means you have only 239.2 million if it is 20% paying taxes. But wait, there is more. If your unemployment rate is 5% (about that of the US I think) then you only have 227.24 million people who pay taxes. That further drives up the amount of taxes they are paying.

In essence, you have only about half of your population supporting over a quarter of your population. This means they have to make enough money to support 1.5 times themselves and then some in order to have modern luxuries like automobiles and movies and other stuff typical of the American lifestyle. So, no, 1 in 4 cannot work because then you make your population pay really high taxes.

Also, what form of war is there other than an RP war? I don't know about elsewhere but on II it is ONLY RP.

well ya . . .less you just wanna steamroll us smaller nations :(

OOC: I'm more likely to go try to beat up larger nations than mine. ;)

what the hell is II? and by the way, this is NS. NOt some other site. look in the forum. look at the number of RP wars going on and then stop to think about how many diplomatic wars are going on. Then think about how many people actaully play NS.
When you put it like that, not that very many people have RP wars anymore.

what the hell is II? and by the way, this is NS. NOt some other site. look in the forum. look at the number of RP wars going on and then stop to think about how many diplomatic wars are going on. Then think about how many people actaully play NS.
When you put it like that, not that very many people have RP wars anymore.

II is international incidents. Actually this IS another site . . .in that it has a different HTTP etc. I've looked in the forum . . .thank you for the advice. There were never that many II wars . . .most people just aren't that into RP'ing.

OK, first of all:

That post did not counter anything in my post. At all. Please re-read it.

Second of all:

II = International Incidents. Its this forum. This is forums.jolt.co.uk not nationstates.net

Third of all:

There is no such thing as a diplomatic war

Fourth of all:

very many is probably 50. There are 50 people who have RP wars probably more than that. I don't know if you noticed but going on the forums is optional and so considering the number of people on II, yes, a lot of people have RP wars. I am talking about the forums not NS.net in which case there is no point in determining the size of your military because war is nonexistent in NS.net. Please, differentiate NS.net from II. I'll wait while you do that.

I used to try and figure out how many troops my economy would support, then i realized that since everyone has to srve, what difference does it make? at least, that is until the WA puts a limit on the size of your military.

That only affects WA members. The rest of us can point and laugh.

100% military nation? Yeah, not so much if you want to be taken seriously. Even in the Starwars universe the empire had millions of worlds and trillions on trillions of citizens. The actual number of those in the military was tiny compared to the population of the Empire itself (Oh god I feel dirty for even talking about this SW stuff. Hardly anyone takes it seriously here. Most FT folks will ignore the SW/ST RPers anyway)

100% military nation? Yeah, not so much if you want to be taken seriously. Even in the Starwars universe the empire had millions of worlds and trillions on trillions of citizens. The actual number of those in the military was tiny compared to the population of the Empire itself (Oh god I feel dirty for even talking about this SW stuff. Hardly anyone takes it seriously here. Most FT folks will ignore the SW/ST RPers anyway)

I'm talking about my region... my nation is basiclly the army for that region... with a few others to help along with it. anyways... like i said.... few people have RP wars anymore...

P.S. This is the Forum for NS. As far as i am concerned, the two are the same. When i was a member a long time ago, it was taken for granted that any war you got into between two or more regions would be both for control of the disputed region, as well as an RP war fought on here. It is sad to see how none of you seem to remeber those days. and now, i leave you to your pointless bickering.

This is the Forum for NS. As far as i am concerned, the two are the same. When i was a member a long time ago, it was taken for granted that any war you got into between two or more regions would be both for control of the disputed region, as well as an RP war fought on here. It is sad to see how none of you seem to remeber those days. and now, i leave you to your pointless bickering.

And we'll leave you to your reminiscing. So long, old-timer.

I'm talking about my region... my nation is basiclly the army for that region... with a few others to help along with it. anyways... like i said.... few people have RP wars anymore...

P.S. This is the Forum for NS. As far as i am concerned, the two are the same. When i was a member a long time ago, it was taken for granted that any war you got into between two or more regions would be both for control of the disputed region, as well as an RP war fought on here. It is sad to see how none of you seem to remeber those days. and now, i leave you to your pointless bickering.

With your horrible spelling, there is not a chance you are a 'old-timer'.

"Old times", as in the first months after NS was created, involved massed wankery, 2-line long posts of "I declare War" spamming II, no RP etiquette and dickwaving to insane extents, from what I have heard. It was slowly that a few decided to RP while most were just making piss poor threads for the sake of boasting OOC egos and E-peens, and eventually II matured better.

There were never that many II wars . . .most people just aren't that into RP'ing.

I will assume you say this because you are a 2005 nation and know not of what you speak.

II was started for the sole purpose of giving serious war RPers the chance to get away from the insanity that was the NS subforum. For months, there was almost no war in the NS forum, as it was all going down in II. That lasted almost a year and a half.

Then it got flooded with storefronts. And everything went to shit.

My, how the times have changed. Or not. 5% has long been the standard since the days of '03. 5% of your population in ACTIVE wartime duty. That is, if you want a good, solid, well-trained and equipped military force so long as you have a strong economy.

I don't know what kind of "old-timer" you are. But you clearly aren't '03. I'd be hard pressed to believe you're an '04, either. Regardless, 25% of your people being in the military, sure. Of course, you'd have to remember they're likely lightly trained, even less well equipped, and your people are likely living in shanties along mud roads with a devastated economy. 25% is wrong if you want to be any sort of power player. Pure and simple.

But, by all means, wreck havoc on your economy, throw your people into the mud, and enjoy your AK-47's and MiG-25's if you can afford any sort of air force worth throwing out at new nations.

Dear god. How much has II changed in the time I haven't done anything here? I see I'm lagging behind drastically.

SW/ST tech not taken seriously? Not many II wars? UN (or the WA for you modern folk) worth a damn? Jeez.

The constitution of your military is important. There needs to be an underlying focus to what you want to do. Having a military that is all-around well balanced it nice in defensive situations, but it will never give you the force projection needed to actually participate in overseas activities for long without assistance. Therefore, the concept of having your military as 25% of your population only works under the circumstances:

- Your nation's economy revolves around war - the constant shifting of slaves, supplies and land through market and vice versa, as well as arms manufacturing and trading within your own borders, upon which I would like to ask why you haven't been wiped off the map yet for constantly waging wars
- You have poorly manufactured weaponry or cannot afford higher end weaponry due to the extremely high overhead cost of having a constantly moving military to keep a somewhat stable economy when it consists of fucking 25% of your population
- Your military is somewhat poorly trained, as there will not be enough administration to properly train and discipline them all

Of course, the wise Roleplayer will definitely keep their military at 1%, 5% maximum. Why? Because of economic impact - unless your economy is within the All-Consuming and Frightening range, then you shouldn't move out of the 5% range, or else you risk undersupplying your soldiers and weakening their overall effectiveness. For example, my nation has an acting force of only around 2 million professional, fully paid completely active soldiers, the rest being infantry from warrior-castes and logistics, despite my population. However, per head each soldier is trained well, experienced and their weaponry constantly updated.

Don't also forget the importance of intelligence and espionage. You need to maintain that as well, and if you don't have a reasonable spy-system that's bringing you useful information, you won't get anywhere in a war.

There should not be a concrete formula that everyone should use to determine their military. Using anything based off of stats from you NS page or the various calculators is unreasonable, because the issues that are used to determine such stats are rarely applicable unless your nation conforms exactly to the norms of a RL Western industrialized country. It is also impossible to accurately abstract the economic and social aspects of a nation of billions in an indefinitely large world.

Also, to provide a corrollary on the matter, consuder this:

Issues, as they appear on your OOC page are often exaggerated to the point of forcing you to choose between competing extremes. These often leave you with little latitude to work out finer details, and the results of your issue decisions are usually unknown until the next day, at which point it is too late to change anything until you receive the issue again.

Also, you are not given "sliders" or type-in boxes to use to adjust your economy or you other statistics. This is why a factbook is so important.

SW/ST tech not taken seriously? Not many II wars? UN (or the WA for you modern folk) worth a damn? Jeez.

No:

SW/ST tech is taken seriously - in FT
There are a few II wars - like the Invasion of the Blackhelm Confederacy, the Gholgothic invasion of Mediterranica and I think there is one invovling Hallad.
UN is NOT worth a damn. Newbs consistently think it is worth a damn.

My, how the times have changed. Or not. 5% has long been the standard since the days of '03. 5% of your population in ACTIVE wartime duty. That is, if you want a good, solid, well-trained and equipped military force so long as you have a strong economy.

I don't know what kind of "old-timer" you are. But you clearly aren't '03. I'd be hard pressed to believe you're an '04, either. Regardless, 25% of your people being in the military, sure. Of course, you'd have to remember they're likely lightly trained, even less well equipped, and your people are likely living in shanties along mud roads with a devastated economy. 25% is wrong if you want to be any sort of power player. Pure and simple.

But, by all means, wreck havoc on your economy, throw your people into the mud, and enjoy your AK-47's and MiG-25's if you can afford any sort of air force worth throwing out at new nations.

Well put. The absolute highest I would say is feasible would be 8%, but that would be a short term mass expansion that would require a big ass draft. And you would have to drop those levels back below the 5% level (perhaps down to 4 or 3.5) for a short time to allow your economy to recover easier from the strain you just put on it.

The only time I ever had a higher percentage was waaaaaay back in 2004, when I used 10%. Simply because I didn't do the math and realize my supply infrastructure would be gargantuan.

No:

SW/ST tech is taken seriously - in FT
There are a few II wars - like the Invasion of the Blackhelm Confederacy, the Gholgothic invasion of Mediterranica and I think there is one invovling Hallad.
UN is NOT worth a damn. Newbs consistently think it is worth a damn.

ST/SW tech is pretty much confined only to those playing ST/SW nations. From what I have seen since the start of the year (and countless bored hours at work reading past threads dating back to '05) that the ST/SW nations are pretty much ignored or confined to RP with other ST/SW nations. They also seem to have the least imaginative RPers. Just a personal observance. IMHO, when Karshkovia grows through MT to PMT and then FT, I'll be doing the same and confining any FT threads to exclude any ST/SW nations just like so many other RPers have and are still doing.

I don't tend to RP with SW/ST because I don't like the "Dogfighting in space" trope, because SC is nearly at the opposite of these canons regarding the "Soft - Hard Sci-Fi" continuum and because it usually looks more like collab fanfic than RP.

Also because I won't accept that "reversing the polarity" will provoke the immediate defeat of the Solarian force and turn the tide of battle for the Trekkies. Or that a Solarian Battleship will necessarily have a design flaw that would allow for a single spacefighter to destroy it with lasers that have a muzzle velocity slower than light.

Other than that, other reasons (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13743775&postcount=16) come, related to mish-mashing multiple canons into something that in my PoV ends up as, with all due respect, silly.

I don't tend to RP with SW/ST because I don't like the "Dogfighting in space" trope, because SC is nearly at the opposite of these canons regarding the "Soft - Hard Sci-Fi" continuum and because it usually looks more like collab fanfic than RP.

Also because I won't accept that "reversing the polarity" will provoke the immediate defeat of the Solarian force and turn the tide of battle for the Trekkies. Or that a Solarian Battleship will necessarily have a design flaw that would allow for a single spacefighter to destroy it with lasers that have a muzzle velocity slower than light.

Other than that, other reasons (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13743775&postcount=16) come, related to mish-mashing multiple canons into something that in my PoV ends up as, with all due respect, silly.

To be honest, I've actually read threads where Trekkies/Wars Fans get up in arms if there are NOT flaws they can exploit. They also tend to be very secure in the thought that nothing can stand up to their respective technologies.

The very few Babylon 5 nations I have seen (and I'm not sure if any of them are active anymore, sadly) tended to be better RPers and would work hand in hand with other FT folks...but they still were Fanfic-ish in their writing. IMHO, it's always best to RP with those who have their own tech. At least you know it's not going to be a fanfic session :)

As for FT Military numbers limitations, I'd say there's only so much that can be properly deployed to a front light years away spanning hundreds of millions of kilometers, specially when you have an entire solar system or more to defend, that sheer numbers become much less important and that if you lose the battle in space, orbit and air, it doesn't matter that much if you have a 1 billion or 1 million-large army protecting a planet(actually a smaller, better trained military would have a greater chance to hold off an invasion for longer through asymmetric warfare than a "zerg rush kekeke"). Only an idiot would conduct amphibious assaults without at least air and naval superiority. Equally, once orbital, naval* and air superiority or preferably supremacy is achieved, proper tactics and a highly specialized military can secure a planet, even with numerically inferior forces. Specially when what such planet has as an Army is a malnourished, poorly trained rag-tag horde with the FT equivalents of AK-47s

*Considering that most FT NSes don't have wet navies, it would rarely be necessary.