NationStates Jolt Archive

((OOC: Don't come here to whine at me. While suggestions are permitted, don't repeat what others say, and don't just bash the design. Many people cannot understand how this design would work, while some have the imagination to do so. Also, OOCly I will be extremely mad if you steal my tank design. I'd probably perform in-character actions that would result in much devastation, regardless of who you are.))

The Divine Tiger Heavy Main Battle Tank
(Because Main is too light and therefore unbadass, and Heavy is too heavy and sluggish.)

Designer: The GWO Military Engineering Division
Type: Heavy Main Battle Tank
Weight (Unloaded, Power Variant): 92 metric tons
Length: 22 feet
Width: 13 feet
Height: 10 feet
Crew: 5 or 3 (Depending on variant and subvariant)
Armour: Steel, Chobham Composite Armor, Depleted Uranium, all with Matrix System (Grid (Matrix) system that bonds materials together to further strengthen structural integrity, thus protecting better against penetrations), additional layers of armor can be attached at the expense of mobility and hiding abilities
Primary Armament: Dependant on variant;
Divine Tiger Accuracy Edition (DT-A): 2x 120mm Smoothbore or Rifled cannons
Divine Tiger Power Edition (DT-P): 2x 125mm Smoothbore or Rifled cannons
Divine Tiger Tank-Killer Edition (DT-TK): 1x 200mm Smoothbore or Rifled cannon
Divine Tiger Infantry-Killer Edition (DT-IK): 2x 12.7mm (.50 BMG) miniguns
Divine Tiger Missile Edition (DT-XM): 4x Hellfire Missile Mounts, 4x Dumbfire Missile Pods, 2x generic missile/rocket mounts for any missile that can fit on
Secondary Armaments:
1x .75 Caliber coaxial machine gun
2x Weapon mounts (Permits most mountable weapons)
Engine:
AGT-1500 multi-fuel turbine engine, Honeywell LV100-5 turbine engine 1575 hp (GWO modifications enhance power output slightly)
Power/weight: 16.9 hp/tonne
Transmission: Allison DDAX-1100 3B transmission
Suspension: Torsion Bar
Operational Range: 250 miles
Speed:
Road: 35 mph
Off-Road: 29 mph
Fordable Depth (Without Snorkel): 1.2m
Fordable Depth (With Snorkel): 5m
Aiming System: Auto-aim or Manual (Excluding DT-XM specially guided missiles)
Auto-Aim system lock-on method: Infrared, laser designation from infantry, aircraft, or light vehicles, or touch-screen aiming (Gunner uses a stylus to touch the target on the screen, then the tank aims at the target)
Loading system: Manual (5 crew) or automatic (3 crew)
Visual systems: Standard Infrared, Advanced Infrared (Draws a line around the heat source, ignoring the radiating heat), standard, "Scout" cameras (Cameras operated by other sources, showing possible ambush points, et cetera)
Additional features: Blow-out system on oil and ammo stations, laser range finders, air conditioning (Optional), cameras for multi-tank coordination (Optional), damage appraisal gauge (optional, rough estimate), grenade launchers (Smoke, etc), flare launchers, infantry handles, frontal accessory mount (For plows, saws, etc), trailer hitch, easily customized for adding more features
Price: 9 million per unit


Armaments

The Divine Tiger is most unusual due to the fact that standard variants (A and P) use two cannons instead of one. While this may seem illogical to most, the tank also employs two loaders or loading mechanisms, depending on the preference of the military employing the tank. Human loaders cannot jam and are faster than some autoloaders, but autoloaders sometimes are extremely fast and leave more crew space. The reason for two cannons is simple; If one cannon is fired at the enemy, then another enemy tank comes out and locks on before a standard tank could reload, the other cannon would already be loaded and fire at the attacker. Plus, firing shells faster can destroy targets quicker, as some tanks are so heavily armored that a single shell would fail to destroy the them, allowing for them to fire back quickly. The cannons can also tilt inwards to prevent targets from hiding between the two cannons (The .75 co-axial machine gun is between the two cannons, too). The types of shells the Divine Tiger is used with are sabots, HEAT munitions, anti-personnel/helicopter flechette shells, white phosphorus shells, chemical shells, and training shells. Nations can make custom shells, but must sell the rights to the GWO Government, as part of the agreement signed upon selling.

The IK, TK, and XM variants are different. The Infantry Killer (IK) uses two .50 BMG Miniguns to pepper infantry with nasty sprays. The Tank Killer (TK) uses a single massive 200mm cannon to inflict devastation on even the most heavily armored vehicles. The Experimental Missile (XM) variant is currently being "Beta Tested" right now, but uses missiles and rockets to punch through armor and other vehicles.

The .75 Caliber machine gun is mounted between the two cannons, and makes quick work of infantry and their lightly armored vehicles (APCs, IFVs, etc).

Armor

Since the Divine Tiger is built in similar terms to the Le Clerc in that the armor is removable for repairs, customizing, changing, and flash deployment, so there is no set armor thickness. The GWO, who is the primary employer of the Divine Tiger, usually puts armor with a thickness equivalent to 650mm of RHA (The Abrams has 610mm). This is the armor that is sent with the Divine Tiger. The Divine Tiger can be used with Reactive and Slat armor. The crew is protected by a blowout system so that their oil and ammunition doesn't cause their demise. Ammunition is stored in several armored containers so that if a blowout occurs, undamaged ammunition still can be used as the Divine Tiger retreats for repairs.

Fire System

The Divine Tiger employs a computer-operated system that allows for others with the right equipment to aim the tank. Of course, manual aiming is still done.

The tank can lock onto heat sources, but since many tanks (The Divine Tiger included) can avoid IR targeting systems with certain tools, the Divine Tiger has some other forms of targeting.

The first alternative to IR is obviously manual. When the tank is in motion, this is done with joysticks. When the tank is stationary, this is done with a stylus, which can either be sewed into the gunner's gloves or attached to a lanyard to prevent the stylus getting lost. The stylus works as such: the computer aims the cannons at the target, using range finders to calculate the distance of the target from each cannon. With all systems, the cannons tilt a bit towards each other so that they're aiming at the same target (How far they tilt in depends on the distance registed by the range finder). The accuracy can be measured in mere centimeters even at very long ranges.

The second alternative to IR is when another soldier or vehicle designates a target. This is done with a laser designator, obviously. The laser makes a reticule around where the target is, and the gunner of the tank either auto-selects, which means the tank aims by itself, or touches the reticule with the stylus. The tank is programmed to aim at the point of the laser, once again with incredible accuracy. The common users of the laser designator are infantrymen, aircraft, lightly armored vehicles, and the commander of the tank himself. Though it is feasible to have other tanks use the laser, it is illogical as each tank has its own cannons. If a tank runs out of ammo, it can tell others where enemies are the old fashioned way. Once a gunner knows the general direction of an enemy, the Divine Tiger's systems will make spotting the enemy easy.

AGREEMENT

((OOC: Though this post has a simple agreement, the IC agreement is your typical and complex multi-page agreement.))

1: You will not resell or give away your Divine Tigers; When you retire them, you are to either recycle them by reusing their material or send them back to us.
2: Any advances you make in the Divine Tiger are to be given to the GWO Government.
3: You will not make "carbon copies" of the Divine Tiger. ((OOC: This is especially important, for I OOCly WILL GET PISSED if you steal my creation.))
4: You will not produce ANY Divine Tigers unless given permission directly from the Government of the GWO. You may perform repairs and whatnot, but no creation of Divine Tigers. ((OOC: I'm not selling DPRs yet.))
5: You may refund your Divine Tigers for 75% of the price.
6: You will pay the price for your Divine Tigers over a maximum of 10 years. You will have to either pay for them all in one payment, or pay at set intervals. If you pay at intervals, you will also receive your Divine Tigers at intervals.
7: We are not responsible for any injuries because of the Divine Tiger.
8: We are not responsible for lost shipments because of embargoes, blockades, piracy, et cetera.
9: The GWO reserves the right to cancel your shipments for any reason at all.
10: Ammunition is a separate product; you may produce your own shells and bullets, or may buy them from us or a third party.
11: If a third party captures or steals a Divine Tiger, you are to make attempts to get them back or destroy them.
12: We are not responsible for any injuries INSIDE the Divine Tiger.
13: You are to refer to the Divine Tiger as the Divine Tiger, and only as the Divine Tiger.
14: If asked where you acquired your Divine Tigers, you must state that you bought it from us, the Grand World Order Government.


Purchases so far:
-Ithsam [1,000]
-Greywatch [One]
-Chernobyl-Pripyat [One]
-The Royal Code [2,500]
-Greal [100]
-East Congaree [1,900]
-Techno-Soviet [24,000]
-Sortmark [One]

Other storefronts where this is available at:
-Stoklomolvi Munitions Depot (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=564089)

OOC: C&C much?

IC:

Greywatch would like to procure one tank. No others are required, no ammo is required, no optional features are needed. We only wish to have a single tank.

OOC: I suggest you get this reviewed at the NS Draftroom (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?act=idx) as I can already spot several major issues with the design.

((OOC: I dropped NSD after they claimed that the US Army/Marine Corps didn't use the M82 except in rare cases. However, you can explain the design flaws you see in the DT.))

To: Greywatch
From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs, Trade Division

Your single Divine Tiger will be sent after the 8.7 million is paid. Thank you for your order. ((OOC: Let's assume you specified the variant...))

Greywatch Communication:

Give us your perfered method of pay and it will be done. We assume we have your word that the product will be delivered and we will not be cheated out of our money?

Greywatch Communication:

Give us your perfered method of pay and it will be done. We assume we have your word that the product will be delivered and we will not be cheated out of our money?

To: Greywatch
From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs, Trade Division

Wired would be preferred. Of course you have our word, why would we simply cheat you out of your money, especially on a transaction of only 8.7 million?

Weight (Unloaded, Power Variant): 85 metric tons

So this tank only weighs 15 tons more than comparative RL tanks, despite the fact that it had two cannons which means an gigantic turret [which I shall get more into later], and the fact that it does not have an autoloader which actually drops the weight. In addition, it has more ceramics and depleted uranium on a bigger turret and chassis. It should weigh closer to 95 tons.


Matrix System (Grid (Matrix) system that bonds materials together to further strengthen structural integrity, thus protecting better against penetrations), additional layers of armor can be attached at the expense of mobility and hiding abilities

Care to explain how it actually works? There is nothing like this in existence in active use in RL and no protoypes.

Divine Tiger Accuracy Edition (DT-A): 2x 120mm Smoothbore or Rifled cannons
Divine Tiger Power Edition (DT-P): 2x 125mm Smoothbore or Rifled cannons
There is no point in having two cannons. Not only does it drastically increase the weight and size of the turret and the tank, but two 120mm cannons won't do anything that 1 can't already do.

Divine Tiger Infantry-Killer Edition (DT-IK): 2x 25mm miniguns

This is not only ineffective, but it will eat so much ammo up to be practically worthless. And if you do have a lot of ammo you will need a lot of space in the tank, which increases weight and profile.

AGT-1500 multi-fuel turbine engine, Honeywell LV100-5 turbine engine 1500 hp (1119 KW)
Power/weight: 16.9 hp/tonne
Transmission: Allison DDAX-1100 3B transmission
Suspension: Torsion Bar
Operational Range: 250 miles
Speed:
Road: 40 mph
Off-Road: 29 mph

I am not an expert with engines, but I can almost guarantee you you are not going to get that speed. You have a similar engine to the Leo and Abrams on a chassis that is much larger.

Aiming System: Auto-aim or Manual (Excluding DT-XM specially guided missiles)
Auto-Aim system lock-on method: Infrared, laser designation from infantry, aircraft, or light vehicles, or touch-screen aiming (Gunner uses a stylus to touch the target on the screen, then the tank aims at the target)

You need to explain this more. It doesn't make any sense and it fails to explain how it does so.

Loading system: Manual (5 crew) or automatic (3 crew)

What is the fifth member for?

ince the Divine Tiger is built in similar terms to the Le Clerc in that the armor is removable for repairs, customizing, changing, and flash deployment, so there is no set armor thickness. The GWO, who is the primary employer of the Divine Tiger, usually puts armor with a thickness equivalent to 650mm of RHA (The Abrams has 610mm).

It's really not that simple. If you want a modular armor scheme you need to actually explain how it works.


I'm sure others could say more.

Greywatch Communication:

The money is already being wired. [OOC: I'm assuming I already have an account address to wire the money to.]

To: The GWO Military Engineering Division
From: RNCP Department of Museums and such





We have been authorized to purchase one [1] Divine Tiger tank for the "Peculiar Military Developments" exhibit. 8.7 Million USD will be wired upon confirmation of order

So this tank only weighs 15 tons more than comparative RL tanks, despite the fact that it had two cannons which means an gigantic turret [which I shall get more into later], and the fact that it does not have an autoloader which actually drops the weight. In addition, it has more ceramics and depleted uranium on a bigger turret and chassis. It should weigh closer to 95 tons.



Care to explain how it actually works? There is nothing like this in existence in active use in RL and no protoypes.


There is no point in having two cannons. Not only does it drastically increase the weight and size of the turret and the tank, but two 120mm cannons won't do anything that 1 can't already do.



This is not only ineffective, but it will eat so much ammo up to be practically worthless. And if you do have a lot of ammo you will need a lot of space in the tank, which increases weight and profile.


I am not an expert with engines, but I can almost guarantee you you are not going to get that speed. You have a similar engine to the Leo and Abrams on a chassis that is much larger.


You need to explain this more. It doesn't make any sense and it fails to explain how it does so.



What is the fifth member for?



It's really not that simple. If you want a modular armor scheme you need to actually explain how it works.


I'm sure others could say more.

1: You're probably right about the weight. I'll have to fix that.

2: Yes there is. Matrices are used to enhance the structural strength of buildings and glass, and most likely many other things.

3: The reason for two cannons is stated under "Armaments". Two cannons allows for quicker firing, as one cannon will be loaded while the other is being discharged.

4: The IK design is relatively experimental; I'll probably make the bullets much smaller so that they'll actually be able to fit a decent amount in there. However, you are right with this.

5: I'm completely oblivious in engines; However, you also are probably right, but GWO's famous for enhancing the power output without making much changes.

6: That is explained under Firing System. It's like the touch screen of a Nintendo DS; The gunner uses a stylus (That stick thing with the DS) to select a target.

7: Loading the other cannon.

8: Works the exact same way as the Abrams, but with matrices to further strengthen it. The removable armor is precisely that; removable, just like the French LeClerc.

To: Chernobyl-Pripyat
From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs, Trade Division

Accepted, please wire the money. Then we'll send a Divine Tiger over.

OOC: Check TG

((OOC: I really hope jolt fixes its recent database problems, it's a near-daily occurance for the forum servers to piss on us.))

Divine Tiger Infantry-Killer Edition (DT-IK): 2x .22LR FMJ miniguns

This is beyond useless. For one, .22LR FMJ has almost non-existent range and stopping power, and second, the lighter the round, the higher the rate of fire. You'd be wasting most of the rounds fired completely.

You would be better off operating any centerfire round.

[ooc: suggestion for the IK variant; 7.62 miniguns. ammo is light compared to anything higher, and you have moderately good range [up to 1300m, depending on caliber]

This is beyond useless. For one, .22LR FMJ has almost non-existent range and stopping power, and second, the lighter the round, the higher the rate of fire. You'd be wasting most of the rounds fired completely.

You would be better off operating any centerfire round.

((OOC: I'm aware that .22LR is weak. However, it still is lethal. Keep in mind that the IK variant was made for urban operations, as warfare today almost exclusively takes place in Urban areas. .22LRs actually can be devastating against infantry, especially with the firing rate of two miniguns. Also, bullet size can be looked over in certain cases; The US Army employs a sniper rifle that fires .177s or so. However, at a speed of 6400 FPS, it can barely nick an infantryman and essentially guarantee death at ranges of 1.7 miles.))

((OOC: I'm aware that .22LR is weak. However, it still is lethal. Keep in mind that the IK variant was made for urban operations, as warfare today almost exclusively takes place in Urban areas. .22LRs actually can be devastating against infantry, especially with the firing rate of two miniguns. Also, bullet size can be looked over in certain cases; The US Army employs a sniper rifle that fires .177s or so. However, at a speed of 6400 FPS, it can barely nick an infantryman and still kill them easily.))
Erm. No. No we don't. The smallest (rifle) caliber used by the US military is 5.56 NATO, and most sniper rifles fire at least .308. A .177 round moving that fast would be rather useless, as it would either lack the mass to penetrate body armor, or overpenetrate by such a vast amount that it would do hardly any damage.

Regardless, .22LR rounds are pretty much useless even if fired in large amounts. You'd manage to turn an armored soldier into a giant walking bruise, maybe (if you're lucky) with a few broken bones, but it certainly wouldn't kill him unless it hit an eye. Heck, even against an unarmored target you'd have to rely on hitting him a rather obscene number of times, as people can simply walk off a hit from a .22 (Reagan, for instance, was unfazed by his shooting for hours). Much more efficient to use a caliber such as 5.56 or 7.62, as any hit has a decent chance of being lethal.

EDIT: On further research, the only .17-ish rifle round I could find (barring a rimfire cartridge similar in properties to a .22LR) was the .17 Remington Fireball, which, while travelling a good thousand FPS faster than 7.62 NATO, still only has a quarter of the energy. Admittedly, energy isn't the sole indicator of how a round will perform, but it's certainly a good starting point. Perhaps the best indication of 7.62's superiority is that the Remington Fireball is used almost exclusively as a Varminting round.

Furthermore, the low mass of a round such as .22LR or .17 Fireball makes it rather prone to being disrupted by wind conditions, making it a remarkably poor choice for a sniper weapon.

OOC:

.22LR is just about acceptable for close rnage SMGs and a .22 mini gun would be tiny as illustrated here:

http://www.montysminiguns.com/brian.htm

And have a max rnage of about 200m agaisnt area targets, allowing even RPG crews to fire at you with impunity.

For a decent anit infantry/ tank support varient you would want a couple of decent sized single barrel auto cannons at a push a pair of revolver guns or GAST guns(say a pair of 40mm bofors guns, or 2 35mm Millenium guns). In addition a couple of independly targetable AGLS and GPMGs would round thigns out. In effect you would be building a bigger BMP-T.

As for the somewhat ludicrous sounding 6300fps .177 sniper rifle (which screams over bore unless we are delaing with some saboted fletechete porjectile) any chance of a link?

Erm. No. No we don't. The smallest (rifle) caliber used by the US military is 5.56 NATO, and most sniper rifles fire at least .308. A .177 round moving that fast would be rather useless, as it would either lack the mass to penetrate body armor, or overpenetrate by such a vast amount that it would do hardly any damage.

Regardless, .22LR rounds are pretty much useless even if fired in large amounts. You'd manage to turn an armored soldier into a giant walking bruise, maybe (if you're lucky) with a few broken bones, but it certainly wouldn't kill him unless it hit an eye. Heck, even against an unarmored target you'd have to rely on hitting him a rather obscene number of times, as people can simply walk off a hit from a .22 (Reagan, for instance, was unfazed by his shooting for hours). Much more efficient to use a caliber such as 5.56 or 7.62, as any hit has a decent chance of being lethal.

((OOC: I learned about the .177 rifle from a former Navy SEAL who's son was a US Army Scout killed in Afghanistan. And you're thinking .22 Pellet, not .22 Rimfire. Farmers use .22LRs to kill cattle, which of course are much more resilient than even the most conditioned humans.

Also, you're repeating someone else's complaints. Stop it.

I'm just going to slap 5.7mm bullets into the IK variant.

@ Crookfur, I don't have a link to the rifle because I didn't learn about it on the internet.))

OOC: Jesus, where do you people research this stuff? I really wanna know so I don't make any stupid mistakes in the future if I'm trying to create a custom vehicle.

See, "friend of a friend" sources are generally pretty crappy, especially when the original source is dead as a doornail and can't verify. Generally acceptable sources are things like world.guns.ru, or Jane's, not hearsay.

Anyway, yes I'm repeating complaints. Perhaps it's because they're valid concerns?

As for using .22LR to kill cattle, yes. They do. By firing it point blank through the skull, where the round doesn't have the power to escape the brainpan, thus bouncing around, turning the brain into sludge. From a hundred yards away, with the target covered in kevlar, the round would have lost so much power that it'd nearly be stopped by the targets bare skin, much less be able to penetrate a k-pot and skull.

OOC:

Then a service designation or anything, even a print refference? I don't want to instantly dismiss your claim but currently it doesn't hold much in the way of water. yes the US armed forces have used .177s in the past but these have been very short range "discrete" weapons.

@Greywatch: Books and the internet. Visit the NS draftroom (as linked to previously) and you should be able to pick up soem pointers on where to start on most subjects. I would rather not clutter up GWO's thread any more with random links.

See, "friend of a friend" sources are generally pretty crappy, especially when the original source is dead as a doornail and can't verify. Generally acceptable sources are things like world.guns.ru, or Jane's, not hearsay.

Anyway, yes I'm repeating complaints. Perhaps it's because they're valid concerns?

As for using .22LR to kill cattle, yes. They do. By firing it point blank through the skull, where the round doesn't have the power to escape the brainpan, thus bouncing around, turning the brain into sludge. From a hundred yards away, with the target covered in kevlar, the round would have lost so much power that it'd nearly be stopped by the targets bare skin, much less be able to penetrate a k-pot and skull.

((OOC: Out of my thread then. I stated before that I don't want my thread cluttered with the same complaint.

And you believe that every weapon used today is listed from those two sources? They're not. There are most likely hundreds of firearms not listed there. And I'd take the word of a Vietnam Vet that I met in RL over a complete stranger from the Internet.

Also explain how people have dropped tens, sometimes hundreds, of wild deer and other wild animals on a person-by-person basis?

Also, NSD isn't really a reliable place either. They claimed that neither the US Marine Corps or the Army use the M82.))

OOC: I'll second that.
@GWO: I wire the money in IC, do I have the tank now or is it still in trasit or what?

Greywatch, you have the tank. Since only one was ordered, it was shipped via C-130 to Greywatch.

OOC: Sweet
IC:

Greywatch Communication:

Thank you for your business.

Official Communique of the Confederacy of Kenavt
Military Message

Dear the Grand World Order Government,

We have recently learned about the availability of your Divine Tiger Heavy Main Battle Tank. After studying data provided publicly, we have determined to buy one Divine Tiger Heavy Main Battle Tank "Missile Edition" with the designation of DT-X, as a test vehicle. We also inquire as to whether the ability to modify the DT-XM to remove a couple of missiles and to add a 150mm gun would be in existence. Thank you!

Signed,

Duke Andrew da Vincho
Premier

Also explain how people have dropped tens, sometimes hundreds, of wild deer and other wild animals on a person-by-person basis?
Because deer don't wear kevlar, and are usually shot from a few yards away? Also, .22LR is generally underpowered for hunting deer, instead being used largely for smaller game like rabbit. .22 Magnum is generally a better choice for deer hunting, or a shotgun.

And you believe that every weapon used today is listed from those two sources? They're not. There are most likely hundreds of firearms not listed there
On world.guns.ru, sure, there's probably a few missing. But from Jane's? I rather much doubt it, considering they're the worlds premier military intelligence company. If they don't know about it, it probably doesn't exist.
Also, NSD isn't really a reliable place either. They claimed that neither the US Marine Corps or the Army use the M82.))
Link?

To: Kenavt
From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs, Trade Division

We will send the tank once the 8.7 million is wired. As for your inquiry about removing some of the missiles to make room for a 150mm cannon;

Doing so would require a complete redesign of the turret. While you are permitted to modify your Divine Tiger, you must sell the design to us if you come to anything conclusive. Currently we are not experimenting much on the DT-XM, so we do not have any design ideas for the proposed idea.

Because deer don't wear kevlar, and are usually shot from a few yards away? Also, .22LR is generally underpowered for hunting deer, instead being used largely for smaller game like rabbit. .22 Magnum is generally a better choice for deer hunting, or a shotgun.


On world.guns.ru, sure, there's probably a few missing. But from Jane's? I rather much doubt it, considering they're the worlds premier military intelligence company. If they don't know about it, it probably doesn't exist.

Link?

((OOC:

1: Most troops on NS don't wear body armor over every part of their body. My troops and Rykaria's troops (Who are based on mine) are the only ones I've seen with complete ballistic protection that is described in my factbook. And I already replaced the .22 miniguns with 5.7 ones. Be happy.

2: Does Jane's also include Red Ryder BB guns and things like them? Also, I don't think Jane's trespasses onto government properties. Plus, they easily can be refusing to print something, or forced not to print it.

3: Happened over a year ago. I don't even think the thread exists anymore.

Anyways, I'm close to having this thread locked and remade because of OOC clutter.))

OOC: I have absolutely no experience with designing stuff-could I just say that my engineers found a way?

IC:

Official Communique of the Confederacy of Kenavt
Military Message

Dear The Grand World Order Government,

We in the Confederacy are wiring the money right now - all 8.7 million USD of it. We would certainly share any significant changes to a Divine Tiger Heavy Main Battle Tank "Missile Edition" DX-XM. Thank you for your generosity!

Signed,

Duke Andrew da Vincho
Premier

((OOC:

1: Most troops on NS don't wear body armor over every part of their body. My troops and Rykaria's troops (Who are based on mine) are the only ones I've seen with complete ballistic protection that is described in my factbook.
Mine do. Anyone who bought the Sampson body armor system from Kreigzheimmer does. Doomingsland and its associates have equivalent protection. There's dozens others, but I'm too lazy to go trawling through the dozens of storefronts on NS to find them. Heck, even Interceptor offers enough protection to make a .22 round harmless.

2: Does Jane's also include Red Ryder BB guns and things like them? Also, I don't think Jane's trespasses onto government properties. Plus, they easily can be refusing to print something, or forced not to print it.
They don't NEED to trespass on gov't property. Between budget requests, embedded reporters, and the fact that the government outsources all of its armament needs to companies that actually know what they're doing (not to mention their beloved habit of showing off their latest giant steel penis) instead of manufacturing it in secret in Area 51, they've got quite the comprehensive list. Heck, they even have details on pretty much all of North Korea's armed forces.

As for Red Ryder's bb guns... Not really. It's not a military weapon, so they wouldn't have it. Of course, since it's not a military weapon, it's kind of a strawman anyway, ne?

OOC: For the sake of the thread, why can this not continue with you guys just TGing each other?

snip

Enough, stop getting your facts from world.guns.ru.

The .22LR Round in a standard hyper-velocity load can EASILY kill a man from quite a distance away, We aren't talking about 500+ Yard shots, I've never seen a .22LR go beyond 300 yards accurately, But I've SEEN First hand, hunters kill deer from 100+ Yards away with a shot between the eyes.

Test have been done with High powered .22LRs (I believe they were Olympic grade target shooting .22LR's with 19' bull barrels) They set up a target at 300 yards, It was a turkey wrapped in 3 jackets, They shot i believe 5 rounds and 4 of them hit, And all of them penetrated through the jackets, 7 Inches deep into the turkey.

I've heard a story of an adolescent boy being shot with a .22LR, He spent MONTHS in the hospital fighting for his leg, which had succombed to gangrene
Once he was released, he could barely walk, and he had to attend physical therapy.

Don't say that it cant kill, It can and will kill..It's not the size of the round, it's the placement of your shot, Of course it wont kill a man if you shoot him in the leg, but it will injure him, Give him shock, and could lead to infections like Gangrene, It will put another man out of the fight which is crucial to winning not only a battle, but a war. Also, Israeli units used .22LR's for crowd control, Russian snipers used .22LR Sniper rifles for taking out chechans, And swat teams use .22LR's because they are quiet in urban areas.

Once a .22LR Round enters the body, it has a tendency to tumble and ping-pong off the bones, bouncing around and ripping everything to shreds.

Example, a headshot on a man would enter his skull, the bullet would procede to bounce around inside his skull, Tearing his brain to shreds.

The .22LR Is also a choice of many assassins, As it is easy to create a homemade silencer, and buy subsonic ammunition which would render the gun completely silent.

Now, heres the kicker: Body armor.
What will .22LR Do to body armor? Not very much, most standard body armor today can stop most handgun rounds Efficiently, So my guess would be to shoot the same spot over and over and over again, the same way Ballistic rifle plates fail by being shot over and over again. like a MINIGUN.

Enough, stop getting your facts from world.guns.ru.

The .22LR Round in a standard hyper-sonic load can EASILY kill a man from quite a distance away, We aren't talking about 500+ Yard shots, I've SEEN First hand hunters kill deer from 100+ Yards away with a shot between the eyes.

Test have been done with High powered .22LRs (I believe they were Olympic grade target shooting .22LR's with 19' bull barrels) They set up a target at 300 yards, It was a turkey wrapped in 3 jackets, They shot i believe 5 rounds and 4 of them hit, And all of them penetrated through the jackets, 7 Inches deep into the turkey.

I've heard a story of an adolescent boy being shot with a .22LR, He spent MONTHS in the hospital fighting for his leg, which had succombed to gangrene
Once he was released, he could barely walk, and he had to attend physical therapy.

Don't say that it cant kill, It can and will kill..It's not the size of the round, it's the placement of your shot, Of course it wont kill a man if you shoot him in the leg, but it will injure him, Give him shock, and could lead to infections like Gangrene, It will put another man out of the fight which is crucial to winning not only a battle, but a war. Also, Israeli units used .22LR's for crowd control, Russian snipers used .22LR Sniper rifles for taking out chechans, And swat teams use .22LR's because they are quiet in urban areas.

Once a .22LR Round enters the body, it has a tendency to tumble and ping-pong off the bones, bouncing around and ripping everything to shreds.

Example, a headshot on a man would enter his skull, the bullet would procede to bounce around inside his skull, Tearing his brain to shreds.

The .22LR Is also a choice of many assassins, As it is easy to create a homemade silencer, and buy subsonic ammunition which would render the gun completely silent.

Now, heres the kicker: Body armor.
What will .22LR Do to body armor? Not very much, most standard body armor today can stop most handgun rounds Efficiently, So my guess would be to shoot the same spot over and over and over again, the same way Ballistic rifle plates fail by being shot over and over again. like a MINIGUN.


None of which affects the main issue here: a 90+ ton tank that for its primary armament has 2 miniguns firing pistol ammo.

It was simply an over reaction, 2 25mm rotaries is too much, 1 would be more than workable and a pair of bigger auto cannons would be even better but instead we have a pair of joke weapons.

Armoured vehicles outside of the anti air role have no need for rotary barrel guns. They are stable enough for even long recoil cannons to put sufficent weight of fire on target very quickly

GWO: I only add this as you have already said you will clsoe the thread, if youd ecide to continue, please elt me know and it shall be deleted.

I'd just like to point out that it is illegal to hunt medium game with a .22LR in all 50 states of the US. If you have seen someone kill a deer with a .22LR then you're lucky the game warden didn't arrest you, confiscate your vehicle and guns, and give you a nice hefty fine. Also you must have been like 10 feet from the deer.

Anyway, a .223 is basically a .22LR bullet with a point in a necked down large caliber rifle case. You may have been thinking of this one. Also it's almost exactly like the NATO 5.56x45mm. They're used in M16s.


*Edit* I'd also like to ask how many assassins you've interviewed to get their opinions on weapon selection.

I'd just like to point out that it is illegal to hunt medium game with a .22LR in all 50 states of the US. If you have seen someone kill a deer with a .22LR then you're lucky the game warden didn't arrest you, confiscate your vehicle and guns, and give you a nice hefty fine. Also you must have been like 10 feet from the deer.

Anyway, a .223 is basically a .22LR bullet with a point in a necked down large caliber rifle case. You may have been thinking of this one. Also it's almost exactly like the NATO 5.56x45mm. They're used in M16s.


*Edit* I'd also like to ask how many assassins you've interviewed to get their opinions on weapon selection.

My opinion: Screw the game warden and hunting licenses, I hunt to eat, I don't buy from supermarkets, i don't need some stupid license.

My grandfather put food on his table with his .22LR because thats all he had, Venison, Rabbit, birds of all sorts. He didn't have a license and he didn't care, He did what was necessary for the health of his family, My dad also hunted with a .22LR, And i follow right in their footsteps.

A starving man, woman, or family wont care about laws when they don't have food.

The .22 Has what it takes, I'd go .22MAG personally but the LR has what it takes, Placement, thats all that matters.

But that aside (As i am now donning my flame-proof suit)

No, I am not mistaking a .22LR for a .223, I know what a .223, don't act like I'm stupid, I know my guns, trust me.

I have read a number of reports in which it's mentioned that .22 pistols are the preferred assassin's weapon because (a) its lack of stopping power is irrelevant in the hands of a sharpshooter who can strike a vital point on the first shot; and (b) the bullet will have enough energy to penetrate into the body but not exit, and will bounce around inside the ribcage or skull, causing much more damage. (As i have previously said)

Test have been done with High powered .22LRs (I believe they were Olympic grade target shooting .22LR's with 19' bull barrels) They set up a target at 300 yards, It was a turkey wrapped in 3 jackets, They shot i believe 5 rounds and 4 of them hit, And all of them penetrated through the jackets, 7 Inches deep into the turkey.

Citation? As my source (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot15.htm)(s (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm)) seem to contradict yours. Olympic standards also use 7.62mm (well, any round up to 8mm) at that range, with .22LR only used in 25m and 50m events (see this (http://www.issf-shooting.org/rules/english/2006/24_rifle_2005_2nd.html), specifically 7.4.6).


I have read a number of reports in which it's mentioned that .22 pistols are the preferred assassin's weapon because (a) its lack of stopping power is irrelevant in the hands of a sharpshooter who can strike a vital point on the first shot; and (b) the bullet will have enough energy to penetrate into the body but not exit, and will bounce around inside the ribcage or skull, causing much more damage. (As i have previously said)
Again, sources? Because all the ones I've seen quote the .22 as being primarily used in execution style killings, where the round enters the skull at point blank and can't exit. I'll see if I can dig up some more specifics regarding the ballistics at work here.

Citation? As my source (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot15.htm)(s (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm)) seem to contradict yours. Olympic standards also use 7.62mm (well, any round up to 8mm) at that range, with .22LR only used in 25m and 50m events (see this (http://www.issf-shooting.org/rules/english/2006/24_rifle_2005_2nd.html), specifically 7.4.6).


Again, sources? Because all the ones I've seen quote the .22 as being primarily used in execution style killings, where the round enters the skull at point blank and can't exit. I'll see if I can dig up some more specifics regarding the ballistics at work here.

I was simply calling it olympic grade because i couldnt think of another word at the time, perhaps the correct term was "Match" grade.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&fpart=1

Theres the source for that.


I don't have the sources for the other, as i have seen them in real life, and cannot find them anywhere on the internet, so You can believe me or disregard that.

((OOC: I learned about the .177 rifle from a former Navy SEAL who's son was a US Army Scout killed in Afghanistan. And you're thinking .22 Pellet, not .22 Rimfire. Farmers use .22LRs to kill cattle, which of course are much more resilient than even the most conditioned humans.


I learned about .177 rifles from my dad. I guess he's cool too.

Also .22LR blanks are used to drive bolt guns.

Also, NSD isn't really a reliable place either. They claimed that neither the US Marine Corps or the Army use the M82.

They don't use it as their primary sniper rifle. The M82 is too large, too bulky, and too heavy (the same for its ammunition) to be toted around by a sniper team in combat conditions and weighs as much as a soldier's entire combat load, thus making it impractical for marksmen on the move. They are used for combat sparingly, being much more suited to the role of explosive ordinance disposal (EOD).

But, regardless, the credibility of an entire website filled with many real life engineering students and graduates shouldn't be tossed about simply because of a minor debate over doctrine.

Divine Tiger Accuracy Edition (DT-A): 2x 120mm Smoothbore or Rifled cannons

I'm curious as to what the advantage of cramming two tank cannons into one turret is in terms of space requirements, ammunition loads, and accuracy.

Auto-Aim system lock-on method: Infrared, laser designation from infantry, aircraft, or light vehicles, or touch-screen aiming (Gunner uses a stylus to touch the target on the screen, then the tank aims at the target)

A stylus.

You're using a stylus to aim a tank cannon?

Why?

Price: 8.7 million per unit

Given that a Challenger II is 7.9 million dollars per unit, a tank with twice the armament and electronic dohickies is going to cost proportionally more.

OOC: The double tank cannons is something used in the PC game "Command and Conquer." In that game, because its a game, the cannons can fire at the same target doing double the damage and not have to worry about ammo. Hence 'cause its a game.
But the main thing I wanted to ask is why no one here bothers to set up an OOC thread about this one instead of constatly spamming this one and robbing it of its original purpose.

I was simply calling it olympic grade because i couldnt think of another word at the time, perhaps the correct term was "Match" grade.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&fpart=1

Fair 'nuff. However, the example is still in the hands of a trained marksman, and is shooting at a fairly soft target (decaying bird probably shouldn't be compared to a 200 lb mammal's ribcage). Even then, the shooter had problems hitting a headsized target at that range (1 out of 3), and a center mass shot definitely wouldn't cut it with a round of that size in most situations.

Also seems I misunderstood your use of the term "jacket." I was assuming something along the lines of a flak jacket. Much more credit given to your argument now that that's been cleared up. ;)

As for your previous argument about volume of fire as an effective counter to body armor, I'm not entirely sure. After all, Class II body armor stops .22LR pretty darn effectively (what would amount to minor bruising) at short range, and (on NS at least) most targets are going to be wearing full (or close to full) Class IV or higher. While the firing rate would certainly be obscene, at anything over 100 yards (and it should be FAR more than this when engaging infantry) accuracy and penetration are going to be considerably lower, so damage to the armor is going to be lessened and repeat hits to the same area will be rarer. Much better to simply rely on a larger round such as 5.56mm for far more reliable kills.

double post

How in the hell did WoW get into this?

telling you where you are completely wrong isnt whining, your opening paragraph is whining.
People wouldnt have to repeat themselves if you would listen the first time. Telling you where you are completely wrong isnt bashing the design.
Translation--if you actually understand anything about arms in general in an informed way you will not understand how this tank "works". However if you are 12 years old and love C&C and World of Warcraft you will totally get it.


You have nothing to fear.

((Don't try to flamebait me. I'm too disciplined for that.

I don't listen to people because they often are wrong. I usually only agree so that they'll stop repeating themselves. And I permit suggestions WITHIN REASON.

I've never played C&C, nor have I played Warcraft.))

They don't use it as their primary sniper rifle. The M82 is too large, too bulky, and too heavy (the same for its ammunition) to be toted around by a sniper team in combat conditions and weighs as much as a soldier's entire combat load, thus making it impractical for marksmen on the move. They are used for combat sparingly, being much more suited to the role of explosive ordinance disposal (EOD).

But, regardless, the credibility of an entire website filled with many real life engineering students and graduates shouldn't be tossed about simply because of a minor debate over doctrine.



I'm curious as to what the advantage of cramming two tank cannons into one turret is in terms of space requirements, ammunition loads, and accuracy.



A stylus.

You're using a stylus to aim a tank cannon?

Why?



Given that a Challenger II is 7.9 million dollars per unit, a tank with twice the armament and electronic dohickies is going to cost proportionally more.

((OOC:

1: I didn't say it was their main rifle. Nor do I believe so, but the claim that they don't use it AT ALL is ludicrous.

And I bet all those NSDers work for Chrysler, too.

2: The advantage is the ability to fend off larger tank forces quicker and with less casualties. If there is 5 T-72s rushing down the street, that "3-5 second pause" of autoloaders is going to end in death. In tactical engagements, a split second counts.

3: Because it's much better than using a joystick to manually aim, now isn't it? When a target is hiding from the usual auto targeting systems, this is used as a substitute.

4: The Abrams costs 2.2 million dollars, and is overall a much better tank than the Challenger series.))

1: I didn't say it was their main rifle. Nor do I believe so, but the claim that they don't use it AT ALL is ludicrous.

To dispute the credibility of an entire forum over it is ridiculous.

And I bet all those NSDers work for Chrysler, too.

Sarcasm isn't winning you many friends.

The advantage is the ability to fend off larger tank forces quicker and with less casualties. If there is 5 T-72s rushing down the street, that "3-5 second pause" of autoloaders is going to end in death. In tactical engagements, a split second counts.


Trouble is, packing two cannons into a turret is going to result in a much higher level of mechanical complexity for traversal and autoloading systems which translates to a high failure rate on the battlefield as well as higher ammunition expenditures (and a subsequent requirement for a heavier ammunition capacity).

Because it's much better than using a joystick to manually aim, now isn't it? When a target is hiding from the usual auto targeting systems, this is used as a substitute.

I wouldn't trust an auto-targeting system linked to a tank cannon with my life in the heat of battle, but that's just my prerogative.

A joystick is perfectly fine to aim a several ton turret with, a stylus is going to be pointless. No matter how fast your DS trained gunners click the stylus, that turret's still going to take several seconds to lock into place. Plus, a joystick can't be lost in the chaos of battle.

The Abrams costs 2.2 million dollars, and is overall a much better tank than the Challenger series.

The Abrams is a much better tank than the Challenger II? The M1A2 costs 2.2 million dollars a unit? Can you source these claims?

OOC: Alright, I was tempted to post "LOL" and ignore this vehicle entirely, but I'm feeling helpful. So let's go through a list which addresses things said here, both in the design and following posts. I do0n't care if others have said what I will say, if you don't want to listen to reason that's your call, I'm posting it anyway.

Armour: Yea, if you're maximum protection is 600-something mm worth of RHAe, in this design, yea 92 tonnes sounds right. Although keep in mind for the space taken up by the spare gun, extra loader, and all that protected volume, you're probably looking at a good 20 tonnes, if not more, anyway.

Guns: Alright, I'll say outright for a tank this idea is just plain stupid, and there are countless reasons for it. First and foremost, vibration. You're turning your turret into a tunning fork, it's not much to cause a lot of accuracy problems, unless of course you want to hit anything on that second shot past 100m. And that's if you're using it to fire quicker. So if you want to hit anything you have to fire slower, making your rate of fire just as slow as a single gun tank. Or you could run around at 100m engagements, but that's a really bad idea with only 600-something mm of RHAe at your heaviest protected points. As for the tactical situation you put forth earlier, your tank on a road with a bunch of T-72s come down the road, that's your tankers being poorly trained. If those T-72s rolled onto the road, they're not paying attention, if your tankers are paying attention then the lead tank in your formation, or lead tank and the second, would knock out the first and if needed second T-72s, and the rest of the T-72s would be useless. T-72s can't shoot through eachother, nor can they shoot over eachother. So they have to back up and find another way, which gives you the advantage as you know where they are, and if you're smart, you know where they have to come to get you.

So in short, two main guns are completely useless. If you need it for that reason, then your tankers suck and you should be spending more money training them then if they were African children manning Shermans. No extra power, no speed advantage (Tanks travel in groups to do this already), no accuracy. But, lots of weight, complexity, reduced ammunition load, and I guess if you wanted you could roll around with an HE or canister round loaded into one gun and an APFSDS in the other, but you'd be better off just using a mortar or GMG on the turret instead anyway.

Now as to your choice in gun calibers. 120mm and 125mm are so simmilar as to make you needing both useless. Go with one or the other, and be done with it. It just complicates things, and makes everything a headache. Not to mention shortens ammo supplies.

As for the 200mm cannon. I'm just going to laugh. To get any kind of power from that gun it will have to be huge, as in length of the M107's main gun. Go google that. You won't have a turret, and if you do it won't be able to move anywhere, least of all urban terrain. And you will get no practical power gain over a 130-140mm gun, and no range gain as it will still be just as easy to avoid shells from a 200mm gun at 5km then a 140mm gun (Unless you are in fact fighting the afformentioned African children in their Shermans).

Fire control: Umm, stylus, no. Ever tried to write your name on a piece of paper while riding a dirt bike? Same basic thing. The crew will be thrown around, the tank moving everywhere, vibrating, everything. A stylus has no anchor to the vehicle (Which would steady it with the vehicle) and your accuracy would drop to nothing. Unless you stopped to fire every shot, but then you'd be back to 1940s tech and be dead by the time you get any decent shots off anyway. A joystick is anchored, it's a pain to use, but it doesn't move one way when the rest of the tank goes another and the guy using it goes yet another.

Also, how does your tank avoid being detected by IR, with an outdated gas turbine engine? Not even Mac is crazy enough to argue that engine will be invisible to IR. And when you get into modern Thermal Imagers, you're screwed.

Now onto randomly picking things from posts following the main one.

3: The reason for two cannons is stated under "Armaments". Two cannons allows for quicker firing, as one cannon will be loaded while the other is being discharged.
And laughed at as a single MCA-7E, Nakil 1A3, or Ly-4A1 guts it and it's buddies from end to end. That weight would be much better served in protection.

6: That is explained under Firing System. It's like the touch screen of a Nintendo DS; The gunner uses a stylus (That stick thing with the DS) to select a target.
Like I said above, but you just gave me a better example. Play your Nintendo DS while riding on the back of a dirt bike, at high speed, through the woods. Not going to work for practicality reasons.

8: Works the exact same way as the Abrams, but with matrices to further strengthen it. The removable armor is precisely that; removable, just like the French LeClerc.Mac can shed more light, but I believe the M1A2 already uses a matrix in its armour.

---- Skip useless small round bickering. ----

Given that a Challenger II is 7.9 million dollars per unit, a tank with twice the armament and electronic dohickies is going to cost proportionally more.
Technicly speaking, from the initial post, the FCS and other electronics in this are signifigantly less sophisticated then the latest upgrades to the Chally II, or any of the digital Abrams, or the LeClerc, Type-90, K-2, Type-100, so on and so on. Maybe closer to the Leopard 1A2.

And I bet all those NSDers work for Chrysler, too.
If I did, I'd hope to be getting paid more then $8.50 an hour.

2: The advantage is the ability to fend off larger tank forces quicker and with less casualties. If there is 5 T-72s rushing down the street, that "3-5 second pause" of autoloaders is going to end in death. In tactical engagements, a split second counts.
Like I said above, if that happens you only deal with two, because the ones behind can't shoot through their flaming buddies' wrecks. And in that case you have two tanks forward too. Or your tanks work alone which is just plain stupid to the point of not needing to be explained.

3: Because it's much better than using a joystick to manually aim, now isn't it? When a target is hiding from the usual auto targeting systems, this is used as a substitute.
No. Well it is better, if your tank is not moving at all. Otherwise, the joystick is superior, and the yolk is superior still.

As for the second sentence, auto-aim features are fail. It will never get used because it's so easy to hide from something without cognitive functions it's not funny. Unless you have AI (Far PMT and FT) then it's not really workable.

4: The Abrams costs 2.2 million dollars, and is overall a much better tank than the Challenger series.))
Funniest thing I've heard or read all day.
First, the Chally is far better then the Abrams. Just go looking at the records.
Second, that's 2.2 million dollars for the M1A2 SEP upgrade from previous M1A1s. Total, off the line, cost of a new build M1A2 is something like $7-8 million. A new build M1A1 alone costs over $4 million.

I can throw more out, just keep posting. Or if you have questions post them in response to this, I'd say TG but I rarely check them.

(OOC: If this was the AMOS (http://www.defense-update.com/products/a/amos.htm), then it would be somewhat sensible to have two main guns because a mortar gun lacks the high pressures of a tank gun and thus with proper structure, a twin-barreled mortar gun will have a faster rate of fire than a single barreled one. To automate firing you'll want something that requires the gunner only to switch through targets of the main gun using a targeting system with conventional buttons and interface, track them so all he needs to do is to press a trigger or button. Also, the better manner to employ "auto-aiming" is by programming the fire control system to make all guns adjust their aim to hit the same target of the main gun by the gunner's request, or to automatically calculate estimated point of impact when based on indirect fire.

Although it is "only" 75 tons, this (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1697) is an example of a proper heavy assault tank, and even it has its flaws(particularly the main gun barrel is so long that it won't be very accurate while moving faster than 15 km/h, the way it's maintenance-intensive and the manner it severely trades overall protection for frontal protection) to the point I intend to upgrade it with a new one which still has some serious cons in exchange of significant pros. Also, autocannons will be much more useful than miniguns, for when a 30mm one weighs as much as a 6.5mm minigun, it should be remembered that the first can pierce the armor of most if not all LAVs, and of some APCs as well, while the latter can't.

I know stuff like the Ratte looks like "ZOMG", but it is completely impractical, regardless of whether such amount of main guns is put in a 1,000 tons or 95 tons tank. )

*Edit: AMOS (http://youtube.com/watch?v=QXN7FZN0j1g)

Greal wishes to buy 100 Divine Tiger Heavy MBTs for a total cost of 870 million dollars.

The problem with the "matrixed" grid style armor you describe is that the principle of grid reinforcement isn't meant to combat those kinds of forces.

In construction, those reinforcements are meant to increase structural strength in glass or concrete parts of buildings, where the force is compression force distributed over the whole surface.

Impact force on a small area, the kind a round might inflict on armor plate, would not be mitigated by this reinforcement system.

I had already TGed him and explained everything you guys are saying... there's really no point.

And I bet all those NSDers work for Chrysler, too.

When I'm not shooting muzwums with my tricked out AR-15 (with subsonic depleted uranium jacketed Nytrillium rounds), I'm fighting them hand to hand in the slums of Sadr City to keep you and your family safe. Ever crush a hadji's head using your perineum alone? Its stuff like that that convinced the Israeli's to accept me into the most professional wing of the IDF (the most professional army in the world): Shabak.

:mp5: GOD BLESS AMERICA. :mp5:

Enough, stop getting your facts from world.guns.ru. Fine. Give a few examples of what is wrong there.

The .22LR Round in a standard hyper-sonic load Sounds cool, where can I buy some?

A starving man, woman, or family wont care about laws when they don't have food. You even have a computer and time to use it, guess you aren't starving.
But you're arguing off the course. The fact is, as mentioned, .22 is illegal for medium and large game. That's because it isn't lethal enough and leaves too many wounded animals in proportion to killed ones.


Also, NSD isn't really a reliable place either. They claimed that neither the US Marine Corps or the Army use the M82.
But, regardless, the credibility of an entire website filled with many real life engineering students and graduates shouldn't be tossed about simply because of a minor debate over doctrine. Well, "many" is an overstatement. Rather a few, spec.-ly Nianacio (I think he is a graduate), and a couple students.

But the thing is, Draftroom is a forum, not some textbook. It's not a one-person site. Forum is a thing where everyone can post his opinion. Even you. Its reliability depends on the poster, not on the forum. There's no "they" in there, only specific poster. Sumer's words you can trust like a book, some [random name], not so much.



But the main thing I wanted to ask is why no one here bothers to set up an OOC thread about this one instead of constatly spamming this one and robbing it of its original purpose. I think this thread should just be renamed to "OOC" one, since it turned into it. Then create an IC thread for the revised design.

Order placed via- CERC MBT Defense Contract thread.

2,500 tanks ordered.

snip

(Note, i ment hyper velocity, not hyper sonic, my tiredness while writing the post in the middle of the night lead to many mixed messages.)

1. Hyper velocity .22LR Can be commonly bought in most gun stores, Or on online distributors. I.E. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/64515-8309-3050.html

2. Whats that have to do with anything? It's besides the point, i don't buy the steroid/hormone injected hard-as-a-rock meat that costs outrageous prices they sell to people at the super market, So i would starve if i didn't hunt.

I'm a man without morals, I don't care if the deer is rotting away from a wound that didn't finish him, tough shit.

Every deer i have shot i put down, a round to the skull works wonders.

But this is off topic, I think we all should quit babbling.

When I'm not shooting Muslims with my tricked-out AR-15 (with subsonic depleted-uranium jacketed nytrillium rounds), I'm fighting them hand-to-hand in the slums of Sadr City to keep you and your family safe. Ever crush a hadji's head using your perineum alone? It's stuff like that that convinced the Israelis to accept me into the most professional wing of the IDF (the most professional army in the world): Shabak.

:mp5: GOD BLESS AMERICA. :mp5:

Israel doesn't have any troops in Sadr City or anywhere else in Iraq. And Shabak isn't a part of the IDF. I'd be willing to bet you don't even speak Hebrew. Can you even tell us what "ישראל" is?

Now... onto the guns. I'm not much of a firearms expert, but .22 LR = 5.56 mm. 5.56mm is crap, especially if the enemy has armour and in NS, everyone does. I like the 7.62x51mm FN FAL, but the ammo weight and recoil issues mean you should only use it if you're a trained shot (and I don't mean basic infantry, it's good for designated shooters.)

For a tank machine gun, though, the 7.62x51mm is an excellent anti-infantry round, though a .50 calibre might be better because it can also shoot helicopters in a pinch.

22 LR = 5.56 mm
Erm. No. .22LR is this. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/.22_LR.jpg/800px-.22_LR.jpg) 5.56 NATO is this. (http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/5.56mm/556mm_M193_ball.gif) Very large difference.

Whats that have to do with anything? It's besides the point, i don't buy the steroid/hormone injected hard-as-a-rock meat that costs outrageous prices they sell to people at the super market, So i would starve if i didn't hunt.

I'm a man without morals, I don't care if the deer is rotting away from a wound that didn't finish him, tough shit.



As someone who hunts and fishes, proudly, I can only hope that when Fish and Wildlife catch up to you they beat and/or tase the living shit out of you.

Preferably both.

I'm not much of a firearms expert, but .22 LR = 5.56 mm.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Rifle_cartridge_comparison.jpg
labeled for your convenience.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Rifle_cartridge_comparison.jpg
labeled for your convenience.

Yes, but .22 is the imperial equivalent of 5.56 mm. To convert millimetres to imperial, x mm / 25.4 mm = imperial. 5.56mm / 25.4 mm = .219 =~.22.

Yes, the 5.56 NATO is technically a .22 round. No, it is NOT the same thing as .22LR in any way shape or form, as the picture so aptly demonstrates.

As someone who hunts and fishes, proudly, I can only hope that when Fish and Wildlife catch up to you they beat and/or tase the living shit out of you.

Preferably both.

Oh look, another internet tough guy.

Nice attempt at the flamebait, wont work, though.

and it's spelt "taze"

So go "proudly" Fish and hunt somewhere else.

If you don't like the way i do business, don't bother opening your mouth, as i'll continue to conduct it in a way as i see fit.

and it's spelt "taze"
.

I suggest you invest in a dictionary there buddy.


So go "proudly" Fish and hunt somewhere else.

no u

I suggest you invest in a dictionary there buddy.

I couldn't find an entry for "Tase" In my dictionary, yet i found entries for taze.

How about you.

Note: Also checked www.dictionary.com And it had no entries for "tase"

You lose, good day sir.



no u

Mature.

Yes, but .22 is the imperial equivalent of 5.56 mm. To convert millimetres to imperial, x mm / 25.4 mm = imperial. 5.56mm / 25.4 mm = .219 =~.22.

.22LR is 1.27 in shorter than the .223 -_-

And uh

yeah

The only use .22s have against cattle is, as Otagia mentioned, point-blank shooting on slaughterhouse floors. It has too much trouble penetrating the chest to be considered useful against humans at range.

And let's get off the rest of the stupidity:
Results 1 - 10 of about 5,440,000 for taser [definition].
Results 1 - 10 of about 945,000 for tazer. Did you mean: taser

I couldn't find an entry for "Tase" In my dictionary, yet i found entries for taze.


Taser doesn't have a z in it. :v

ZTZ96G T-96 anyone? ‡10,000? 400 in covered storage.
http://otvaga.vif2.ru/Otvaga/china-tanks/t96_2.jpg
http://otvaga.vif2.ru/Otvaga/china-tanks/t96_1.jpg

Or perhaps some M113 Armored Personnel Carriers? ‡15,000 because of the Auto-Cannon
Crew: 2
Passengers: 11
Total Personnel: 13
Only have 50 spares, all excellent condition, covered storage.
http://images.military.com/EQGpics/EQG_m113apc_1.jpg
http://data.primeportal.net/apc/m113cv/Dsc01572.jpg

Taser doesn't have a z in it. :v

Completely different now, you changed it.

Taser is the device in question, But it is "To taze" not "To tase" Tase would sound like "tace"

To: Greal
From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs, Trade Division

Your 100 Divine Tigers are being shipped currently. Thank you for your purchase.

To: CERC
From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs, Trade Division

Your 2,500 Divine Tigers are being shipped at a price of 21,750,000,000 Neutral Currency Points. Thank you for your order.


((OOC: HP, while you are an ally of mine, don't advertise in my threads pl0x. Thanks.))

((OOC: I dropped NSD after they claimed that the US Army/Marine Corps didn't use the M82 except in rare cases.

OOC: I thought the marine corps only bought 125 of those rifles. I am inclined to believe that NSD is correct because it'd be downright stupid to waste so much money equiping every sniper with an overly heavy rifle when most of the people they will face have probably never even seen body armour.

-snip-

(OOC: it is called the M113 Gavin Airborne Assault Vehicle (www.combatreform.com/lavdanger.htm), and I never thought I would agree with Sparky ideas, but in this specific case, I do.)

(Note, i ment hyper velocity, not hyper sonic, my tiredness while writing the post in the middle of the night lead to many mixed messages.)
Unfortunately, they aren't hypervelocity in full sense either.

And nor are they sufficiently effective against medium game, neither in hunting, nor in military use.


i don't buy the steroid/hormone injected hard-as-a-rock meat [...] So i would starve if i didn't hunt. No, you wouldn't. It's saying "i don't buy this crap cheap food, So I would starve if i didn't steal the expensive one."
I'm a man without morals, I don't care if the deer is rotting away from a wound that didn't finish him, tough shit.
Of course you don't care. That's why they have laws that make what you're doing illegal.

You also don't have the morals to stop arguing a lost cause, or to answer the questions you were supposed to:
Fine. Give a few examples of what is wrong there [at world.guns.ru].
You've said it's wrong, now tell how.

Unfortunately, they aren't hypervelocity in full sense either.
.22LR, Like many other calibers of ammunition, come in different grades, Example:
Match, Subsonic, Hyper velocity, Standard velocity, etc.

Go to any site where you can buy ammo and i guarantee you will find that.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/22longri_daa.htm



And nor are they sufficiently effective against medium game, neither in hunting, nor in military use.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&fpart=1
I'd call a turkey medium sized game, and the distance is incredible for a shot to penetrate that much.

Tell "Nor are they sufficient" To the deer i have killed with a Ruger 10/22 .22LR.

I cant think of a proper military use besides Crowd control, But i know of Chechan snipers using it against russians, and vice versa.


No, you wouldn't. It's saying "i don't buy this crap cheap food, So I would starve if i didn't steal the expensive one."


Think about it, Why risk the 99% Chance of getting fined/arrested for stealing the "good" meat at a supermarket where EVERYONE is watching you, Compared to the VERY low chance of getting caught by a game warden in the middle of some forest in the middle of nowhere, shooting an animal.

Example, i saw a rabbit tonight in my backyard, What did i do? I shot it, No game warden randomly came flying out of the tree line, and held me at gunpoint.
I ate it, too, it was tasty.

I'll stick with delicious murder.


Of course you don't care. That's why they have laws that make what you're doing illegal.
.

And that is why i pay EXTRA close attention, and have never been caught.
Do i care it's illegal? No.


You also don't have the morals to stop arguing a lost cause, or to answer the questions you were supposed to:


I'd stop arguing this "Lost cause" if you morons stopped bringing it up, And i missed ONE question, boo hoo.


You've said it's wrong, now tell how.

For a number of reasons.
1. Mislabeling of guns.
2. Absence of weapons, most notably the Metal Storm handgun.
3. (More of a personal opinion) Everyone and their brother uses it, and automatically believes they are "Gun gods" by reading it.
4. They claim the XM8 was made in the United States when it was commissioned by the US Army for Heckler and Koch.

Point 4

A direct quote from the first lines of the XM8 write-up on world guns:

The development of the XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle was initiated by US Army in the 2002, when contract was issued to the Alliant Techsystems Co of USA to study possibilities of development of kinetic energy part of the XM29 OICW weapon into separate lightweight assault rifle, which could, in the case of success, replace the aging M16A2 rifles and M4A1 carbines in US military service. XM8 is being developed by the Heckler-Koch USA, a subsidiary of famous German Heckler-Koch company.

So where does it say it isn't developed by heckler and Koch?

Point 3
Your personal opinion, one that you are perfectly entitled to.

Point 2
The absence of weapons has already been addressed. Basically, yeah it does, but it has lots of guns there, which have useful stats and background writeups.

Point 1
Link please?

4. They claim the XM8 was made in the United States when it was commissioned by the US Army for Heckler and Koch.

H&K has production facilities in the United States.

That's why they have laws that make what you're doing illegal.

I'm not actually sure hunting rabbits in your own yard is illegal. Unless you live where I do.

Match, Subsonic, Hyper velocity, Standard velocity, etc. I know. It's just a name. Matter of fact is, the bullets aren't hypersonic as you posted.
Also, these hypervelocity bullets aren't, of course, harmless, but it's as light as gun wounds go. These are varmint cartridges, used to shoot mostly rodents.

But i know of Chechan snipers using it against russians, and vice versa. They also use knives. And "sniper" is a bit of misnomer considering poor equipment and skill.
Russians probably also did use these - those that lived in Chechnya before the war. Not the troops, since it's worse than any military round.

And that is why i pay EXTRA close attention, and have never been caught.
Do i care it's illegal? No. Yeah. Cool macho outlaw.


1. Mislabeling of guns. Examples.
2. Absence of weapons, most notably the Metal Storm handgun. No source has all weapons ever produced. On the contrary, selectivity is an advantage: almost all of the weapons on world.guns.ru Max handled himself, and has additional information on them from authoritative sources. He has a rule not to talk about what he doesn't know.

4. They claim the XM8 was made in the United States when it was commissioned by the US Army for Heckler and Koch.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_12_48/ai_111971494
H&K operates both in Germany and in US. Were XM8 to be finished, it would be made in US, maybe even US only.
Since it was a joint H&K/GD project, engineering samples were made in US as well.

It's the problem with you not knowing that H&K works not only in Germany, not with the site's information.

ooc1: Third Spanish States, m113 is registered as a Armored Personnel Carrier not a GAAV. Gavin comes only from the Honorary Naming the original M113 after General James Gavin, but that was the original. Newer M113's are just referred to as, M113 APC, or the M113 Armored Reconnaissance Airborne Assault Vehicle (AR-AAV) and mine are a newer variant than the original. S.N > Auto Cannon. Also as far as I know the Variant with the Auto-Cannons is not Airborne at all, but I may be wrong.

ooc2: The Grand World Order, I apologize the advertisement was only meant to deflect some criticism from the Divines. (Which I like.)

~Phillips

I know. It's just a name. Matter of fact is, the bullets aren't hypersonic as you posted.
Also, these hypervelocity bullets aren't, of course, harmless, but it's as light as gun wounds go. These are varmint cartridges, used to shoot mostly rodents.
"Hypersonic" Was a typo, i ment velocity, not sonic, I'm not going to continue on this section of the argument as i have stated i have killed plenty of large game with a .22LR, and thats enough conviction for me.




They also use knives. And "sniper" is a bit of misnomer considering poor equipment and skill.
Russians probably also did use these - those that lived in Chechnya before the war. Not the troops, since it's worse than any military round.


You realize these Chechans might not be as stupid as your making them sound, Correct?


Yeah. Cool macho outlaw.


I'm cool as a cucumber.



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_12_48/ai_111971494
H&K operates both in Germany and in US. Were XM8 to be finished, it would be made in US, maybe even US only.
Since it was a joint H&K/GD project, engineering samples were made in US as well.

It's the problem with you not knowing that H&K works not only in Germany, not with the site's information.

I knew that H&K Works with the US.

snip

For what you said first, I was going by what a friend of mine told me, I didn't check the website listing for XM8 before i posted that.


And number two, The mislabeling i ment simply means how they categorize the firearms as "Civilian, Military, Assault" etc etc, When i believe they should take it down more properly, as most of the "Military" rifles are bolt action, And i honestly don't see the point to the civilian rifle section, as it doesnt even begin to cover the wealth of civilian ownable firearms out there.

I knew that H&K Works with the US.

Then why did you say that they weren't made in the US?

And number two, The mislabeling i ment simply means how they categorize the firearms as "Civilian, Military, Assault" etc etc, When i believe they should take it down more properly, as most of the "Military" rifles are bolt action, And i honestly don't see the point to the civilian rifle section, as it doesnt even begin to cover the wealth of civilian ownable firearms out there.

Why do you think this would convince anyone that world guns is unreliable? Why did it convince you?

ooc1: Third Spanish States, m113 is registered as a Armored Personnel Carrier not a GAAV. Gavin comes only from the Honorary Naming the original M113 after General James Gavin, but that was the original. Newer M113's are just referred to as, M113 APC, or the M113 Armored Reconnaissance Airborne Assault Vehicle (AR-AAV) and mine are a newer variant than the original. S.N > Auto Cannon. Also as far as I know the Variant with the Auto-Cannons is not Airborne at all, but I may be wrong.

ooc2: The Grand World Order, I apologize the advertisement was only meant to deflect some criticism from the Divines. (Which I like.)

~Phillips


OOC: Epic fail.
The only people every to call the M113 a Gavin anything, are Sparky and his cronies. TSS was making a joke.

Then why did you say that they weren't made in the US?



Why do you think this would convince anyone that world guns is unreliable? Why did it convince you?

Because it contradicts him...

Then why did you say that they weren't made in the US?


I didn't remember hearing that HK-USA Was making the XM8, I thought it was HK-DE. '

Plus, technically HK-USA is just a marketing branch to make logistics easier.


Why do you think this would convince anyone that world guns is unreliable? Why did it convince you?

I didn't think it would convince anyone, that was not my motive.

I was simply stating my dissent for the website, Which then turned into a giant war over a simple statement on my part.

From: East Congaree Freedom Party and War Department

To: The Grand World Order


We are interested in purchasing 800 Tank-killer devine tigers to be deployed to the Capital city of Charleston for its' defense. Also, we will purchase 100 IK Devine tigers if you can change the caliber on the gattling guns to 37 mm. Sure, this'll cut back on our production of T-54s for the year, but i'm sure you're glad to know of our joy towards getting Grand World Order quality tanks.

With best of intents,

Freedom Party Chairman- Reginald Deere

From: East Congaree Freedom Party and War Department

To: The Grand World Order


We are interested in purchasing 800 Tank-killer devine tigers to be deployed to the Capital city of Charleston for its' defense. Also, we will purchase 100 IK Devine tigers if you can change the caliber on the gattling guns to 37 mm. Sure, this'll cut back on our production of T-54s for the year, but i'm sure you're glad to know of our joy towards getting Grand World Order quality tanks.

With best of intents,

Freedom Party Chairman- Reginald Deere

To: East Congaree
From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs, Trade Division

We cannot make the cannons 37mm miniguns. The most we can do is a single 25mm minigun. Your total price is 7,830,000,000 Neutral Currency Points/Universal Standard Dollars. Thank you for purchasing from the GWO Government.

From: East Congaree Freedom Party and War Department

To: The Grand World Order


Accepted, we'll go with the 25 mms.


With the best of intents,

East Congaree Freedom Party Chairman/President - Reginald Deere

((OOC: Bump))

((OOC: Bump...))

ooc: OMG YOUR MY HERO! TTWIN G TANK! i built one a while back too! but yea.. sales failed miserable and people kept hicding me about it i have one word for all you whiners THIS IS NS!*pokes all the whiners* almost everything is possible MT and anything can and will be built(with approriate tech level)

IC:

We the IKAL, applaud you for putting a twin gun tank into production and hope that you will continue to produce them for a long time that being said we would like to purchase 1 million of your tanks, along with 1 of each interchangeable adapting bit for each tank.

Money will be wired upon confermation.

OOC: I dont see the big hype about this tank, .22 rifle rounds can still kill and its huge. As for design flaws <.< its realistic. Also Kewen, I dont think he could build a million tanks, nor could you buy 1 million.

Sez the man that thinks Veritech fighters are actually useful. :rolleyes:

ooc: 1 million over the course of a few years so... i buy i buy i buy! also this is and order from a nation with 8.5 trillion $ in defense.
IC

We would like to adjust our order for 500,000 tanks please.

http://www.wagner.com/technologies/missionplanning/weapon-mission-planning/metpln/jsow.gif
problem solved

Lulz @ thread.

Take this for what it's worth; constructive criticism.


The Divine Tiger is most unusual due to the fact that standard variants (A and P) use two cannons instead of one. While this may seem illogical to most, the tank also employs two loaders or loading mechanisms, depending on the preference of the military employing the tank.


When regarding your tank, which is it? If your turret is designed to for two human loaders, then there may be little advantage to an autoloader. An autoloader is "most effective" when the turret is designed around it, because it allows you to reduce turret volume. If the turret is designed to allow a human of any given dimension then one of the principle advantages to autoloaders is already lost. In other words, when it comes to weight, the loss in weight is not necessarily with the autoloader, but with the saved volume (which decreases the amount of surface area you will have to armor).

I guess that a client can still decide to use an autoloader, but a client which understands the advantages to an autoloader may now opt for another tank. That said, it would make sense to market your tank with a crewed loading mechanism, and instead market why this is superior to an autoloader. Otherwise, it shows that this tank was not really designed with any particular ideology in mind, and instead tries to appease the general clientele, which normally translates into "this tank is just a hodge podge of different things I read on".


Human loaders cannot jam and are faster than some autoloaders, but autoloaders sometimes are extremely fast and leave more crew space.


This is misleading; human loaders can be faster than older autoloaders. In any case, this "fact" is based that the fastest loading was done by a Challenger 2 crew member. What's untold is that the tank was in a fixed position, and there was one ready-round in the breech. The advantages of the autoloader are really seen when the tank is moving, and when the human loader has already loaded a number of rounds (and is now tired).

Jamming in autoloaders is fairly rare.


The reason for two cannons is simple; If one cannon is fired at the enemy, then another enemy tank comes out and locks on before a standard tank could reload, the other cannon would already be loaded and fire at the attacker.


Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. If your tank commander or gunner has a new target, the turret still has to rotate in order to meet the threat. Within that time your loader or autoloader should have enough time to load a new round, so that the tank can fire. If you fire within a smaller time-frame then you also risk the fact that the reverberations of the first cannon will effect the accuracy of the second cannon (a problem found in naval turrets where the guns are too closely spaced).

The width of the turret is limited by the vehicle's dimensions and the acceptable weight limit your government has put on the program. Two guns will require two mantlets, which are substantially armored, and will require a larger turret. Two loaders will require a larger turret, as well. This will require a larger turret ring, and possibly a larger chassis. All of this will have to be armored accordingly. It's interesting to note that the M1's front armored profile decreased by ~28% (IIRC) as compared to the M60. And so, although the M1 has heavier armor, the armored surface area is actually much less. This is what allows such radical leaps in armor protection without an equally as radical leap in weight.

In this tank you are going to have that proportional increase in weight, as well. We are probably looking at a tank that weighs close or over 100 metric tons.


Plus, firing shells faster can destroy targets quicker, as some tanks are so heavily armored that a single shell would fail to destroy the them, allowing for them to fire back quickly.


No, it wouldn't. You are not even closely guaranteed that the LRP will strike at the same part of the tank, let alone the same part of the armor. If the enemy's tank armor is well designed then the propagation of cracking will be limited in such a way where a tank can survive multiple hits if the hits are on different parts of the tank. On newer tanks, especially on NS, modular armor is used, where the modules may be set up in such a way where it's largely unaffected by what happens to another module right next to it (similar to how explosive reactive armor tiles are set up).


The cannons can also tilt inwards to prevent targets from hiding between the two cannons (The .75 co-axial machine gun is between the two cannons, too).


Expect another massive increase in weight, then.


The GWO, who is the primary employer of the Divine Tiger, usually puts armor with a thickness equivalent to 650mm of RHA (The Abrams has 610mm).


Which M1? Certainly, not the M1A2. According to Michael Green & Greg Stewart, M1 Abrams at War (p. 102), the estimated RHAe values for the M1A2 SEP's turret (at the thickest point; i.e. mantlet) is ~1,620mm (CE) and ~940mm (KE). Your values correspond to those of the M1A1HA (1,050mm vs. CE, 590mm vs. KE on the turret).


all with Matrix System (Grid (Matrix) system that bonds materials together to further strengthen structural integrity


I know somebody asked this already, but you didn't really give a real answer. How does this work?

ooc: I only have two problems(if you want to make a really crazy design and people buy it, than its ok for me, this is RP not RL)

1)price tag...9 million? New RL tanks cost 4-5 million dollars. They dont have half the stuff this tank has. Not in electronics, not in weapons, not in anything(maybe protection). Most MBTs on NS as ive seen cost around 10+ million dollars. And they dont have 2 main guns.

2)two main guns! you need a huge turret, huge ammounts of ammo...Ever tried zeroing in/calibrating sights on a RL tank? Do you have any idea how annoying it is with one gun? In the 1970s a few countries tried to use 2 main guns on designs and their fire control people lost their minds trying to make the guns hit the same spot.
Im saying this because the only advantage i can see is if the guns fire one after the other(say a few millicseconds apart) so you get double penetration...but its very very hard to keep a tank gun calibrated to the point the two will hit the same spot...

still, cool idea.

1)price tag...9 million? New RL tanks cost 4-5 million dollars. They dont have half the stuff this tank has. Not in electronics, not in weapons, not in anything(maybe protection). Most MBTs on NS as ive seen cost around 10+ million dollars. And they dont have 2 main guns.

The fire control systems of this tank are quite similar to RL ones, actually.

The fire control systems of this tank are quite similar to RL ones, actually.

really? touch screens with a bloody stylus? Auto targeting systems by IR desognation? Not only are these things not found on tanks, they arnt needed. A tank is a proud member of the direct fire club. It dosent need someone to designate targets for it.
The FCS for two guns being zeroed for the same target, the sights, everything is wierd.

I mean the bit where the tank has an FCS system that automatically corrects for range and windage. Obviously there's nothing stopping them from putting in a touch-screen with a stylus - that'd add, what, $500 dollars to the cost?

1)price tag...9 million? New RL tanks cost 4-5 million dollars. They dont have half the stuff this tank has. Not in electronics, not in weapons, not in anything(maybe protection). Most MBTs on NS as ive seen cost around 10+ million dollars. And they dont have 2 main guns.

You're right that this tank should cost a lot more (especially since the FCS will be much more complicated, as it has to deal with two guns, and two guns which can rotate inwards, as well). But, real life tanks go for much more. Tanks such as the South Korean K2, French Lecerc and U.S. M1A2 SEP cost ~8 million per tank. Rolf Hilmes suggests that the future tank will cost ~12 million per tank.

I mean the bit where the tank has an FCS system that automatically corrects for range and windage.
ooc:
sure, thats fine.

bviously there's nothing stopping them from putting in a touch-screen with a stylus - that'd add, what, $500 dollars to the cost?

listen this dosent work like that. its not a computer game with graphic interface. im not sayin it cant work, but you need software and hardware to make that touch screen communicate with the gun accurately. Im trying right now to think how it would work. Im an old-school tank commander. I comanded a Merkava Mk 2. Its an old piece of junk, so maybe im a little old-fashioned. But when I calibrated my sights every morning with one gun, It took time and effort to get it right. Even than, a person that decides to sit on your gun and rest fucks it up. Now, if you have two guns, and he only set on one, they are now possibly not -zeored. at ranges of up to 1000, maybe even 1200 meters, it dosent matter that much(assuming your target is a tank). at ranges of 3000 meters, you will not makea first shot kill, period.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9349/ussr.gif

The United Socialist States of the Techno-Soviet
The Technocratic Council

We're very intrigued by the two-cannon system and it's potential. We'd like to purchase some of these tanks, preferably with autoloaders. We're willing to pay for these weapons over the course of two years and receive them over the course of two years.

- 24,000 Divine Tiger-P H-MBTs

Combined Total: $216,000,000,000

Yearly Total: $108,000,000,000

To: The Grand World Order Department of Foreign Affairs

From: East Congaree Executive Office

We wish to purchase 1000 Divine Tigers, with a single 25mm gattling gun as its armament.

With the best of hopes,

Reginald Deere

You're right that this tank should cost a lot more (especially since the FCS will be much more complicated, as it has to deal with two guns, and two guns which can rotate inwards, as well). But, real life tanks go for much more. Tanks such as the South Korean K2, French Lecerc and U.S. M1A2 SEP cost ~8 million per tank. Rolf Hilmes suggests that the future tank will cost ~12 million per tank.

Maybe your right, dont know. I gave a moderate estimate.

Thanks for the necropost.

The armor claim is simply an error of mine - the source I referred to went kaput.

And the two cannon thing isn't to pick multiple targets - it's to make it so that the tank can easily take out a target that has arrived during the loading sequence that would get a kill on the tank if the tank was still reloading.

I don't entirely see how having a machine that tilts the cannons inwards a little bit could increase weight too much, generally basic things like that don't weigh more than a hundred pounds or so.

The matrix is a composite sort of system that uses metal and non-metal components (The non-metal being ceramics, etc) in which - hell, I'll let wikipedia explain it to you. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_matrix_composite#Applications) Note that that link shows that it already is in use in tank armor.

The only justification for a Twin-barreled tank is this, period:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

It has been even discussed to a greater extent here:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=5448

And the two cannon thing isn't to pick multiple targets - it's to make it so that the tank can easily take out a target that has arrived during the loading sequence that would get a kill on the tank if the tank was still reloading.

You are assuming that the second cannon can be loaded while the first cannon is firing. This isn't going to be possible. The recoil impulse of the cannon firing is going to disallow the loader from loading the second cannon. As a result, loading a single cannon is just as fast because the loading process begins at more or less the same time.

I don't entirely see how having a machine that tilts the cannons inwards a little bit could increase weight too much, generally basic things like that don't weigh more than a hundred pounds or so.

It's not the machine that weighs the most, it's the increased volume that your turret will require in order to allow the gun breech to move to the left/right (depending on the cannon). It's the same reason why Soviet turrets tend to be lighter than Western turrets; they are lower, and therefore have less armored volume, but have allow for less depreciation of the main gun.

And the two cannon thing isn't to pick multiple targets - it's to make it so that the tank can easily take out a target that has arrived during the loading sequence that would get a kill on the tank if the tank was still reloading.

I understand that. The problem is how you aim a tank gun. You put the crosshairs on the target. You hit(hopefully. Now you fire at the next target using the exact same aim. If you have two guns, the point of aim is diffrent. At 3000 meters, that diffrence will mean you dont hit on the first rond, have to reload, and than fire again. At that point, its really useless to have two guns, as ou could just reload the first one.

To: The East Congaree Executive Office
From: The Grand World Order Military Engineering Division

Your order has been accepted at the price of nine billion (9,000,000,000). Thank you for shopping with the Military Engineering Division.

To: The Technocratic Council of Techno-Soviet
From: The Grand World Order Military Engineering Division

Your order has been accepted and your product will be shipped over the course of two (2) years.

OOC:

On more modern tanks , electronic interfaces already exist – think Merkava 4 or Challenger 2. The controls there are wire, rather than direct hydraulics, and viewscreens are already installed in Merkava 4 for the commander and gunner, rather than the periscopes you may remember from Merkava 4. On te Challenger 2, the controls even look like game controllers. Once you communicate with the gun electronically, it's really not that difficult to create a new set of hardware to do it – and if you want it to be a touchscreen, it's really not that hard.

Here are the controls for the Nakil, one of the more popular NS tanks, which are based on the RL Challenger 2:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i291/Macabees/Armor/Gunnercontrolfinalfinal.png

The main cost would be in software development, but it would be no more difficult than writing a new device driver (as this is is essentially what you're doing). This would NOT add hundreds of thousands of dollars to the cost of your tank. It may cost you several hundred thousand dollars to have the software written, and it may not be te world's best idea, but it can be done, and the cost would then be divided among the millions of tanks GWO no doubt exports.

On modern tanks, crew are perfectly capable of aiming the cannon without going into complex sighting calculations – the fire control system on a Mark 4 or a Challenger will do this sort of thing for them – measure distance, speed, elevation and aim the cannon at the spot that you denote on your screen.

Now, dual-barreled tank cannon are not a good idea IMO, and I was not addressing that. I was merely addressing the notion of having electronic controls within. (Though I note dual-barreled howitzers exist in real life, they are not the same as what GWO here is proposing.).

TSS, bugger off, you have nothing constructive to add.

Nachmere, that's what the computers do through some mathematical formulas that I can't be bothered to recite (Anything to do with math rapes my brain.)

You are assuming that the second cannon can be loaded while the first cannon is firing. This isn't going to be possible. The recoil impulse of the cannon firing is going to disallow the loader from loading the second cannon. As a result, loading a single cannon is just as fast because the loading process begins at more or less the same time.

I'm assuming that the second cannon is already loaded, actually. This idea generally comes from the double-barreled shotgun idea- if you miss or your first shot doesn't do the job, the second one should be able to.

It's not the machine that weighs the most, it's the increased volume that your turret will require in order to allow the gun breech to move to the left/right (depending on the cannon). It's the same reason why Soviet turrets tend to be lighter than Western turrets; they are lower, and therefore have less armored volume, but have allow for less depreciation of the main gun.

The cannons themselves don't actually go left and right, they sort of pivot/swing (Probably have the wrong words there) after a computer determines how much to tilt the cannons so that they're aiming at the same target (With lasers mounted on the barrels so that the computer knows where they're pointing, which then easily corresponds with the visual interface monitor things). Of course, this does result in a bit of a size increase in the turret, which is something I'm willing to accept.

and if you want it to be a touchscreen, it's really not that hard.

Point is, you dont want a touch screen. You just really dont.

and viewscreens are already installed in Merkava 4 for the commander and gunner, rather than the periscopes you may remember from Merkava 4

Yes there are TV-sights. My MBT140 desighn has them. No issue with that. You still have to zero your sightsd manually though.

On modern tanks, crew are perfectly capable of aiming the cannon without going into complex sighting calculations – the fire control system on a Mark 4 or a Challenger will do this sort of thing for them – measure distance, speed, elevation and aim the cannon at the spot that you denote on your screen.

I am well aware of that. No calculations are needed to aim the Merkava mk2s 105mm. You just aim with the crosshairs and fire. But if you want that second round to hit with the same accuarac the second time, you must use the same point of aim. Let me try to explain its a little complicated.:

Lets say you fired at a target aiming at the exact center of it. Your sights are perfectly zeroed. Than you use your second gun. This gun may not be zeroed to the same spot. Someone leaned on it, lets say. If you only have one gun, its not a problem, you can correct by aiming a little high or low, left or right, by where you hit last. With two guns you now have to remember which gun is zeroed to where and which gun is firing right now.

These things are not so simple. In the rush of tank operations, its very very hard to do anything. You are on the move, the noise is staggering, shit is blowing up around you, dust is in every possible crack in your face. Now add the gunner trying to adjust for two guns having two points of aim...Damn. If you think im talking about aged systems, here is a picture of an M1A1 commander doing just what i explained, calibrating the sight with a bore-sight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DA-SD-06-06814.jpg

It has been even discussed to a greater extent here:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=5448

This is why I don't go to NSD.

A private communication from the Jarldom of Kiev

Hail!

Einar Sigurdsson, Jarl of Kiev wishes to buy one of your Divine Tiger tanks. It is meant to be destroyed in a mock battle during the celebrations of his most recent campaign. For the purpose he needs something that looks extremely impressive but is in fact weak enough for one of our Hirdsmen on foot to destroy, in order to rightly reenact one of the Hird's recent battles. I have looked at your tank's picture and specifications and have decided it meets my lord's requirements.

The Jarl can make payment to your company as soon as the tank is delivered.

Eirik Halvsen

I'm assuming that the second cannon is already loaded, actually. This idea generally comes from the double-barreled shotgun idea- if you miss or your first shot doesn't do the job, the second one should be able to.

There are reasons why tanks don't go with a ready-round in the breech into combat.

The cannons themselves don't actually go left and right, they sort of pivot/swing (Probably have the wrong words there) after a computer determines how much to tilt the cannons so that they're aiming at the same target (With lasers mounted on the barrels so that the computer knows where they're pointing, which then easily corresponds with the visual interface monitor things). Of course, this does result in a bit of a size increase in the turret, which is something I'm willing to accept.


Pivoting or swinging means that the cannon has to go left or right. The cannon's barrel and breech have to be aligned, and so any movement to the left or right will requirement a movement of the barrel.

Hail!

Einar Sigurdsson, Jarl of Kiev wishes to buy one of your Divine Tiger tanks. It is meant to be destroyed in a mock battle during the celebrations of his most recent campaign. For the purpose he needs something that looks extremely impressive but is in fact weak enough for one of our Hirdsmen on foot to destroy, in order to rightly reenact one of the Hird's recent battles. I have looked at your tank's picture and specifications and have decided it meets my lord's requirements.

The Jarl can make payment to your company as soon as the tank is delivered.

Eirik Halvsen


ooc: LOLz. Thats an insult.

Is should stop posting here im helping you sell these monsters:)

This is why I don't go to NSD.

(OOC: Are your military forces made of Mechas, twin-barreled tanks, flying, land and submarine carriers and soldiers issued with ZF-1s and do you want to keep them this way no matter how many people refuse to RP with you because of tech-wanking them? Because if they are not and you want to have a respectable In-character MT military rather than something that seemed to be taken off straight from an Anime, there is no reason to avoid NSD)

A private communication from the Jarldom of Kiev

Hail!

Einar Sigurdsson, Jarl of Kiev wishes to buy one of your Divine Tiger tanks. It is meant to be destroyed in a mock battle during the celebrations of his most recent campaign. For the purpose he needs something that looks extremely impressive but is in fact weak enough for one of our Hirdsmen on foot to destroy, in order to rightly reenact one of the Hird's recent battles. I have looked at your tank's picture and specifications and have decided it meets my lord's requirements.

The Jarl can make payment to your company as soon as the tank is delivered.

Eirik Halvsen

To: Einar Sigurdsson
From: The Grand World Order Military Engineering Division

The sale has been authorized, and we aren't concerned with the use of the tank in your country. However, we do doubt a single Hirdsman would be able to destroy the vehicle if it was actually fighting back. Any tank could be destroyed by a single person, really.

(OOC: Are your military forces made of Mechas, twin-barreled tanks, flying, land and submarine carriers and soldiers issued with ZF-1s and do you want to keep them this way no matter how many people refuse to RP with you because of tech-wanking them? Because if they are not and you want to have a respectable In-character MT military rather than something that seemed to be taken off straight from an Anime, there is no reason to avoid NSD)

Yes. :$

(OOC: Are your military forces made of Mechas, twin-barreled tanks, flying, land and submarine carriers and soldiers issued with ZF-1s and do you want to keep them this way no matter how many people refuse to RP with you because of tech-wanking them? Because if they are not and you want to have a respectable In-character MT military rather than something that seemed to be taken off straight from an Anime, there is no reason to avoid NSD)

OOC: NSD people insist that you must NEVER succumb to the rule of cool, NEVER EVER EVER. Anything that's not an upwanked version of a conventional RL military idea is BAAAAAD.

OOC: NSD people insist that you must NEVER succumb to the rule of cool, NEVER EVER EVER. Anything that's not an upwanked version of a conventional RL military idea is BAAAAAD.

OOC:Im just saying i think its a bad idea, im not saying you couldent make it work. Alot of bad ideas were made into production weapons, and some of them are still with us to this day.Some were tuned over time to work well and are now good wepaons.

((OOC: NSD told me .50 BMG sniper rifles are impractical.))

((OOC: NSD told me .50 BMG sniper rifles are impractical.))

OOC: They are for most things. They're heavy, have heavy rounds, don't carry much ammo to begin with and have massive recoil.

I guess if you want to see a guy's torso fly off his legs you could use one. =P

((OOC: Also considering the armor a lot of troops on NS wear, the .50BMG is a friend to the one using it.))

Hail sir!

Let no man say that a Hirdsman is a coward, or that the battles which brave men fight afar are demeaned by craven-ness at home. The vehicle will be manned with war-captives who are trained to use tanks, and fully armed. That is why it was important to find an actual military vehicle matching our specifications, rather than use a mock-up.

My Lord Jarl thanks you for the vehicle and wishes your engineers equal successes in weapon-design in the future. My Lord and his men will drink to your prosperity before the battle.

Eirik Halvsen

((OOC: NSD told me .50 BMG sniper rifles are impractical.))

OOC: Having browsed both draftroom's, and every post you ever made on your account on it, I have yet to find any statement to back this up. Do you have the link? Because otherwise I'm inclined to believe you're making it up as an excuse not to listen.

OOC: Why would he need an excuse not to listen? I mean you no disrespect, but remember, NS is a free-form RP game. If he doesn't like your advice, he doesn't have to take it. He owes you nothing.

OOC: Why would he need an excuse not to listen? I mean you no disrespect, but remember, NS is a free-form RP game. If he doesn't like your advice, he doesn't have to take it. He owes you nothing.

OOC: The question is not of needing an excuse, it's of why does he use one? Is there another logical reason why every time anything related to NSD is brought up he responds with his counter-argument of .50 BMG's being impractical? If he doesn't want to listen there is far more respect for simply stating so then throwing out excuses, which have no real application.

ooc:either way we are hijacking this thread for stuff it wasent meant to be about...

OOC: The question is not of needing an excuse, it's of why does he use one? Is there another logical reason why every time anything related to NSD is brought up he responds with his counter-argument of .50 BMG's being impractical? If he doesn't want to listen there is far more respect for simply stating so then throwing out excuses, which have no real application.

((OOC: If I wasn't telling the truth, then I would simply say I don't trust NSD, as well as the fact that there are a few asshats there that I would much rather avoid.

But it's true, I proposed the EASR-L150 .50BMG sniper rifle as a product from the Emorden-Geist Weapons Manufacturing Corporation. And in return, I got replies of the .50BMG being inefficient.))

(OOC: It's just a naming matter. If you named it a "anti-material rifle" and explained that it can serve as a sniper rifle as well in the write-up, nobody would claim that, becaus most calibers lower than a .50 BMG would be ineffective on the role special forces have such high caliber rifles for. Regardless, you can always ask people through TGs or messaging about designs as well, or in #nsarms.

Also, it's entirely possible to design things with "coolness factor" without breaking physics laws or having them as unpractical, as long as you think on its purpose first than on its looks. Including, but not limited to Rubik's Cube shaped grenades, UGVs that have the shape of miniature WW1 tanks with turrets and even LOL40k (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=5489) )

ooc: You do not have the proper PhDs to design such a vehicle!

[OOC: You know, I personally believe the Infantry-Killer model to be completely useless. Here's why: Any Modern RL tank has enough guns to take care of itself against infantry. ATGMs will rape it. RL tank/armored doctrines usually revolve around tanks being supported by infantry. Infantry vs. Infantry cancel each other, and whoever has the better/more tanks will win the day.

Also, with two guns, it's going to turn... slow, unless you have a damned good hydraulics system, and adding to that would be weight. That thing would probably break a few decent bridges if more then like two ran over it. And with a vehicle THAT big, how do you plan on moving it? Except for by like... your navy? Also, with that much work your gears and all the shit in there is probably going to need constant maintenance, and with a speed that low you're BOND to be flanked, except by the most inept NS tacticians, [albeit there are many of them...] anyways I'm going to be going now.

EDIT:
Btw: 200mm Gun is going to be significantly heavier than the standard model [And the IK model will also be lighter comparetively] and thus weigh more, and hold less ammunition, by, and this is really just a guesstimate, atleast 60-80% less rounds. What can I say? I got a fetish for necroing :)]

((OOC: Good job on the necropost.))

The Nachmere Armed forces museum of Armored Warfare would like to purchase one Divine Tiger for display. The tank dose not have to be fully operational, only able to drive and rotate its turret.