NationStates Jolt Archive

So I have noticed that the people on this site have a tendency towards aggressive negotiation, so I think it would be in my best interests to create a military. Here is how I would like the rundown of it to be, any help of pinning down the specifics would be appreciated.

Navy (Since my nation consists of a lone peninsula, this would be the most powerful branch):

15 destroyers

50-100 PT Boats

5 Battleships

10-15 Submarines

1-2 Aircraft Carriers (I will be purchasing these)

Army:

20,000 combat troops

60,000 supporting units

Mostly modernized, but not too elite, my primary economic resource is tourism right now.

Air Force:

do I really even need one

Homeland Reserve:

These guys are part-time soldiers that are committed to protecting their towns and regions from attack either from internal or external threat. Service in this branch would be the most popular. They also make up the Coast Guard.

You probably would need an air force, if only to defend your country; you'd be surprised how much bombing is leaned upon at times.

Yes you will need an air force, because planes are useful.........

Right, if you need assistance building a military I'll gladly help you. IM me at Inquisitor500 on AIM or Wanderjar@hotmail.com through MSN/Windows Live and we'll get you're Defense Force/Armed Forces sorted out real nice-like.

Tommorrow of course, its late here :p

Skyland Mt. is in a similar position to yourselves, but we would be happy to offer you our support. Would you be interested in discussing a mutual defense pact? We are always eager to build relations with other democracies, and bolster the security of smaller and less powerful nations.

Intro: This may sound wooden:
Hi! and Welcome to Nation-States.
Nice to see fresh blood... er... new meat... um... you know...


First suggerstion:
On a penninsula, air force tends to be important, as you can use a central hub rather than travel along the perimeter in boats.

Navy:
PT boats would come across many issues against most NS navies, a squadron of 12 PT boats would be about as effective as a group of 4 small aircraft (2 engines or less) or a pair of patrol planes.

Mostly because PT boats generally have the world's suckiest CIWS, SAMs, fire control, and damage control ever. An ex-offshore oilrig loaded with guns would serve as a better picket.

That said, you'll always need some small boats for keeping such forts supplied and chasing after minor coast gaurd stuff (and the occassional sub-chaser to counter a covert insertion).

You'll want more submarines, with how small your navy is, these are the only things they would have any difficulty finding and destroying. More destroyers too, because once the defensive curtain provided by the planes and those destroyers go down, your carriers are sunk.

Less battleships unless you like re-enacting the final moments of Bismark and Yamato. Don't go too big with aircraft carrier size, aircraft aren't included, plus, you can only get a few airborne at any given time. (exceeding 100 planes per carrier gets nasty, as even the biggest carriers launch 4 to 8 at a time but can only land 2 in same amount, and can't do both at once)
----------
Army and Homeland looks good for a startup nation.
You have one or two combat divisions and between three and six support in army.

Make sure air force is subservient to this group, you can't have the flyboys doing whatever they please when the only thing standing between an enemy tank parked on their tarmac is down there taking the flak.
--------
Air force:
You have 2 carriers, now you need planes, and hopefully a few land-based airstrips/airports for travel, frieght, and training your carrier crews.

Helicopters are always welcome in any army. Even if they're only transports, you can still give a CH-47 a nifty outfit of weapons.
==========
General stuff:
Standardize everything early-on, most storefronts will accept weapons substitutions/modifications if you request it/them, just be sure to leave a 5% to 15% tip.

You don't need to buy RL stuff, but most storefronts offer reasonable (or questionably low) prices, and it leaves a paper trail. Plus, RL tech is generally easier to understand and use than indiginous stuff to NS by default.

I can give you 600 T-62M tanks, 800 M113 APC's, 80 MiG-21's, and 3 Su-27's

I suggest you work on missile defense systyms. A nuclear deterent can buy you safety- unless your enemy has a shield, is to fanatical to care, or decides to take you with them. Then the best you can hope for is MAD. Perhaps surface to air missile defense based off of your ships, if you can't afford a dedicated ABM system?

I suggest you work on missile defense systyms. A nuclear deterent can buy you safety- unless your enemy has a shield, is to fanatical to care, or decides to take you with them. Then the best you can hope for is MAD. Perhaps surface to air missile defense based off of your ships, if you can't afford a dedicated ABM system?

MAD doesn't work in NS, ever, especially with small nations, since you'll hardly ever stat with nukes without being called a noob.

That said, it is generally accepted to give your nation one unique ace in the hole and very slowly expand upon that, disadvantages first, then reap your benefits later. And you're never allowed to ignore disadvantages your country has, emphasising advantages you have is too easy and doesn't attract as much respect.
-Completely ignoring when you're on shaky ground is pretty much wank.

Oh, right, and fanatics are pretty common on NS. If you need an example, Undershi nuked some spear-wielding tribesmen because a few of them were seen carrying AK-47s, he also had a thing for crucifying POWs.

Even if MAD never happens, I don't see why missile defense is a bad idea.

Lyran Arms is happy to cater to all of your requirements in this field. Ask, and ye shall recieve.

Ask and pay and ye shall receive.

Consider adding the following:

* Minesweepers
* Landing craft
* Replenishment ship/oiler
** Possible other specialist classes, for ammunition hauling/pure liquid (oil, water) hauling/food, other warfighting equipment
* Various types of small/medium/large tugs
* Research vessels
* Training vessels

I would cut out one of the aircraft carriers and trade it in for a helicopter carrier. They're expensive to maintain, and you probably won't need more than one to provide total coverage of your territorial waters and actual island (EDIT: although depending on what size of a peninsula this is and how worried you are about attack from both sides, you may actually want to keep it).

For the Army, you will need at least a small degree of mechanized forces, which will include tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers (the last for light infantry, the second-to-last for working with the first). Even on a small island, these can be very useful.

I would recommend several coastal defense missile launchers (you may only need three, to cover your whole shore, but they're very useful at long-range defense). They will likely be taken out by cruise missile strikes, but at least you'll have parity of range and they will give you time to get your military together. Consider drilling into your sub crews how to lay mines as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Remember to detail land-based radar stations, because these will also be targets.

For your air force, interceptors will be key. Look for something fast and carrying a lot of ordnance: the F-14 is an example of one such aircraft in real life, as is the MiG-25 "Foxbat". Beyond that, I recommend using a multi-role aircraft with a lean toward air superiority to keep costs down and other strike fighters/ASFs out of your airspace. You shouldn't need too many of either, but they are very, very important.

EDIT: I'm available for chat sometimes (<— thataway for my IM handles), and feel free to buy what equipment I have detailed (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=543241), as well.

To: Crimean Republic
From: Kingdom of Lynion, Prince Ranakin

You've asked for help in building a military force. We have nothing to sell you but if you require it we can train your forces for you. Consider it a stepping stone to some sort of relationship between the two nations.

[OOC: If you're interested, the NationStates Draftroom (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?act=idx) is dedicated to military and civilian hardware design, strategy & tactics and the sale of technology [for NationStates, of course - nothing real]. There have been a number of threads created related to the creation of an armed forces and how to do it, and the replies are helpful. See:

Greal, Military Question (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=3091)
Himilay, Military Organisation (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=2466)
Telros, Help With Military (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=3078)

There must be another dozen dating back to when the boards were put up - April 10th, 2007 [over one year old!]. I strongly suggest that you join the NationStates Draftroom (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?act=idx) and ask there - some of the players that answered your question here also belong to that forum [Hurtful Thoughts, Jeuna, et cetera].]

A lot of the store fronts offer packages and for a start up military they are a good deal. You can outfit a whole division with the gear necessary to fight from one supplier at one price.

As for your navy I would drop 3 of your BBs and replace them with 6 more subs and maybe 3-6 guided missile cruisers. This would give you a more balanced force. The number of PT Boats I would cut in half and replace them with 12 corvettes or like sized craft. These will have better protection then PTs and be able to operate farther from home.

Here is a rough draft of the break-down of the ground forces, tell me if this looks good.

National Army

1st Army (40,000 Soldiers)
11th Division (20,000)
110th Combat Brigade (5,000)
115th Support Brigade (15,000)
12th Division (20,000)
120th Combat Brigade (5,000)
125th Support Brigade (15,000)

2nd Army (40,000 Soldiers)
21st Division (20,000)
210th Combat Brigade (5,000)
215th Support Brigade (15,000)
22nd Division (20,000)
220th Combat Brigade (5,000)
225th Support Brigade (15,000)

Homeland Defense Force

Each Oblast has one Brigade

Average size: 5,000 soldiers

Each Oblast’s Brigade is given its own number, preceded by the prefix H for homeland. For example, Yalta, Oblas number one would be referred to as H1 or Homeland One.

In the average brigade of 5,000, there is two combat Battalion (Around 1,000 troops each, according to the size of the battalion) lettered according to date of formation:

Eg the second Battalion that was created: H1-B or Homeland One Bravo

There is then three Support Group Battalions, which are given the Brigade Designation, then the Support Prefix (S) then a number by date of formation.

E.g. the first SGB created in Yalta would be known as H1-S1

Your regular military seems to have its logistics and combat units segregated at the divisional level, which would possably cause issues if you planned on sending less than a quarter of your entire active military anywhere.

On the other hand, the oblast system is well formed for dividing units at brigade level. (Any more divided and they'd have to fight as irregulars)

Likewise, the militia units (oblasts) although better suited for 'smaller' operations than your regular's format, would be a nightmare to train. As such training camps would have to be located within a reasonable distance from the necessary 5,000 man brigade, otherwise you may as well tell them to buy their own equipment.

Logistics are generally segregated only on units smaller than battalions.

NS isn't RL though, and some people -myself included- have specific logistics divisions, and I have a tendancy to 'mish-mash' a combat division's battalions with a logistics brigade.**

**This makes training (theoretically, and at least it makes sense in my mind) financially easier, as I can have seprate handling proceedures for logitics equipment and combat kit. (Read as: I use 5 ton trucks and HEMTTs as buses and semitrailer-tractors. The lil urbanite CUCV is making inroads into the doctorine.)

Hay again,
If your nation is a small land mass,
I suggest aggressive work with reguards to decentralized military units.
As well as alot of Fake tanks, planes, and shore emplacements ect...

As for your military,
Air Force's will probably be a key investment,
I recommend using the F-35 JSF for it's S/TVOL ability.

You should also consider investing in Anti-Air batteries and Anti-ship missiles,
All should be mobile if possible.

If you would like, I've amassed a ton of information on Western and Russian
and small nation's Military.
I would be happy to help you build up a force which would suit your nation's
defensive strategies.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Colosseum/Sun_Letterhead_Exports.png
From the desk of Cdr. Ian B. Roberts; Sun International CEO, on behalf of the
Principality of North Point;
To: Crimean Republic
Subject: Naval Forces


To whom it may concern,

Sun International Naval Systems (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=555788) offers all types of warships. We construct surface combatants, aircraft carriers, and submarines. Due to your current situation, we offer you a 10% discount on all purchases. Simply mention it in your order.

Regards,

-s-
Mr. Ian B. Roberts, Cdr. NPSC
CEO Sun International
Commanding

Your regular military seems to have its logistics and combat units segregated at the divisional level, which would possably cause issues if you planned on sending less than a quarter of your entire active military anywhere.

On the other hand, the oblast system is well formed for dividing units at brigade level. (Any more divided and they'd have to fight as irregulars)

Likewise, the militia units (oblasts) although better suited for 'smaller' operations than your regular's format, would be a nightmare to train. As such training camps would have to be located within a reasonable distance from the necessary 5,000 man brigade, otherwise you may as well tell them to buy their own equipment.

Logistics are generally segregated only on units smaller than battalions.

NS isn't RL though, and some people -myself included- have specific logistics divisions, and I have a tendancy to 'mish-mash' a combat division's battalions with a logistics brigade.**

**This makes training (theoretically, and at least it makes sense in my mind) financially easier, as I can have seprate handling proceedures for logitics equipment and combat kit. (Read as: I use 5 ton trucks and HEMTTs as buses and semitrailer-tractors. The lil urbanite CUCV is making inroads into the doctorine.)

Thanks for the ideas, I never had thought about the specifics of training before, but I was thinking that each HDF would run its own training camp headed by a National Army officer, and under the training manual developed by the National Army. The HDF is decentralized in order to best DEFEND the nation in the off chance of a homeland invasion.

I will be bringing up the mech and tech info soon, after which I will begin work on the navy, Air Force and anti-air defense grid.

I've put some thoughts and study into real world "irregular " warfare,
and how para-military organizations.
If you want to do that instead of an American or other Stand up Army,
you should look at the Finland Army and how they fought in the Winter war
of 38-40 Where they fought the Russian's and Germans.
But employ modern military weapons,

How does this look for a fleet to defend my country against foreign invasion:

Navy of Crimea

12 Mako A-Class Hunter/Killer Submarines
5 Los Angeles-Class Attack Submarines
25 Oliver Hazard Perry-Class Frigates
25 Arleigh Burke-Class Destroyers

Homeland Coastal Defense Force (Under the control of the HDF)

100 River Patrol Boats (PBR)

So I have noticed that the people on this site have a tendency towards aggressive negotiation, so I think it would be in my best interests to create a military. Here is how I would like the rundown of it to be, any help of pinning down the specifics would be appreciated.

Navy (Since my nation consists of a lone peninsula, this would be the most powerful branch):

15 destroyers

50-100 PT Boats

5 Battleships

10-15 Submarines

1-2 Aircraft Carriers (I will be purchasing these)

Air Force:

do I really even need one


In terms of Modern Tech, you should be applying that question to your Navy? Most countries today have larger Air Forces and Armies than they do a Navy.

I would suggest having a large airforce. It's also handy when fighting an inland nation, when you won't be able to land troops from the sea.

Take my Navy Vs my Army:
-Army Personel, 500,000+ for Regular Army, 250,000+ for Territorial
-Navy Personel, less than 150,000 Including both regular personel and Special Forces

Yes, I would say that I have decided that I do need one. I am in the process of creating one right now. I feel that due to site concerns, a navy is in fact more important than an army for my nation.

Yes, I would say that I have decided that I do need one. I am in the process of creating one right now. I feel that due to site concerns, a navy is in fact more important than an army for my nation.

True.

Have you considered what you're outfitting your military with?

If this is a Post Modern Technology (PMT) nation, Exterminatus Arms can cater for your ground forces needs.

Or 1 type of helicopter, cause that's all we've got!

However, my old storefront, UNNA, has a few things that may interest you.

Link: Ustio North National Arms (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=548646&highlight=Ustio+North+National)

I should tell you that it will be shutting down soon, so if you see stuff buy it now!

True.

Have you considered what you're outfitting your military with?

If this is a Post Modern Technology (PMT) nation, Exterminatus Arms can cater for your ground forces needs.

Or 1 type of helicopter, cause that's all we've got!

However, my old storefront, UNNA, has a few things that may interest you.

Link: Ustio North National Arms (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=548646&highlight=Ustio+North+National)

I should tell you that it will be shutting down soon, so if you see stuff buy it now!

My weapon of choice will be the AKM and other fine soviet products.

How does this look for a fleet to defend my country against foreign invasion:

Navy of Crimea

12 Mako A-Class Hunter/Killer Submarines
5 Los Angeles-Class Attack Submarines
25 Oliver Hazard Perry-Class Frigates
25 Arleigh Burke-Class Destroyers

Homeland Coastal Defense Force (Under the control of the HDF)

100 River Patrol Boats (PBR)

Way overkill on the destroyers. That's half the American destroyer fleet there, and more than the active frigates of the USN. By comparison, Georgia can only afford to field two FAC/corvette class ships, and the Ukraine only a couple of frigates, three corvettes, and some miscellaneous ships. Coastal cutters and riverine boats are very different: riverboats will have a much shallower draft, and thus be smaller (well, maybe not if you're willing to forego stability quite a bit, but I discourage it) and less able to actually defend your coast.

I'm iffy on five Los Angeleses. I don't know how much extra cost it would take to keep up a nuke, but I do know it's more than a diesel-electric—obviously. I have no idea what you're talking about when you mention "Mako A" class submarines: are you referring to the Amphion class? Or something else? Some NS class?

Continuity concern, though, why have USN equipment when this is Crimea?

I think that would put you high in the running for Best armed nation in your size
and region.

If you want a massive naval force, maybe you could afford it, I haven't looked
over your spending, but it would be most of your nation's military assets is my
guess.

In character it would make most of your neighbor nations extremely nervous that
you suddenly acquired such a build up of so powerful and sophisticated a navy.

although if you want a strictly defensive force, I'd scale it back a tad, or now atleast...
Keep the coastal boats and corvettes, destroyers and maybe three or four cruisers.
But aside from say One carrier ( if it's a Full deck carrier, not a through deck )
and say six subs; diesel-electric or nuclear.
Anymore could be seen as a precursor to war,
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't...
But major build ups cause a strain on a nation's economy and resources
as well as the fact that they can strain relations between other nations
in the region.
You could start an arms race with your neighbors,
Maybe you don't care or maybe you want that...
It's something to think about before purchasing enough fire power to level
a couple of nations ( and their respective military's )

I'll be happy to sell you stuff.

Have you considered the GR-15E "Obsidian" Lightweight and Lowcost Stealth Fighter?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=556431

How does this look for a fleet to defend my country against foreign invasion:

Navy of Crimea

12 Mako A-Class Hunter/Killer Submarines
5 Los Angeles-Class Attack Submarines
25 Oliver Hazard Perry-Class Frigates
25 Arleigh Burke-Class Destroyers

Homeland Coastal Defense Force (Under the control of the HDF)

100 River Patrol Boats (PBR)

Here's what I've come up with as cost per ship ( to buy ) as per D20 modern
book on military vehicles

( I've no idea what the Mako class subs are )

5 Los Angeles Class attack subs
I don't have them listed here, but I recall them at 1 Billion each

25 Oliver Hazard Perry-Class Frigates
these read out at 150million each

25 Arleigh Burke-Class Destroyers
are 800milloin each,

From Naval people I've met, they suggest that the navy ( USN )
spends about 5% of a ship's purchase cost each year in maintaining
it. Asuming that it's in active service, if it's mothballed than you can
cut this down considerably,
Also you have to consider the cost of training and maintaining your naval
forces ( the men and women who fight and live on these ships ). Then
the cost of fuels for non Nuclear boats, missiles, bombs and airplanes ect...
It's not just the " Kelly Blue Book" value of a ship, it is the whole unit cost
and that's alot more expensive to a nation then most people seem to remember.

As for River boats they can cost as much as you want to spend,

Just thought I'd add this bit to help you,

( I've no idea what the Mako class subs are )

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=555788

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=555788

Oh, got it. Hadn't checked your lineart page since like page 8. D: