NationStates Jolt Archive

Toxic Waste Dump Ahoy!

Thanks, Novacom, for getting this done, and thanks to those who proposed it.

To Praetonia, Questers, and anyone else on the pro-APOC side: I'd rather not continue to create OOC discord by making the long, detailed, and meticulously sarcastic posts typical of discussions like these anymore. I will be available via telegram, IRC, or even AIM if you'd like, to continue these discussions, but I don't think here is the place for them anymore. And I don't make those suggestions simply as dead ends: I really mean that you should contact me there when you need to say something to me. I imagine you'll want to give me a refutation of my last post; feel free to TG it to me. Godspeed.

I'll make this brief... Prae, you took my article waaaay too damn seriously... honestly, look at some of the stuff I put in, especially at the bottom... "Research done by twelve Gerbils, two parrots and a chimp..." etc. etc. The thing was meant to be slightly silly and, if anything, ironic for the fact that A. Most Illiorians don't know what APOC is, because it hasn't gotten much national media attention, and B. the Illiorian government doesn't care. Questers got it right when he called it a Joke, because for the most part, that's what it was, excluding the one actual tidbit of information that got out there that you probably missed by becoming too pissed off over a silly little Op-Ed Piece, the off the record comment by the only woman on the INGC: my president. Now, please, take a chill pill, relax and have fun. If you're really that concerned that I'm blurring IC and OOC, please come find me over IRC and I'll debunk that for you quite quickly. And also, I'm glad I changed that to a Zukariaan STD and not a Praetonian STD as I originally had it.

@ Matt: thanks for actually getting the joke.

Cheers.

zomgwtf y u maek fun uv me???

Zukariaa;13431102']zomgwtf y u maek fun uv me???

/wrist

I must not have been clear enough with my "article." I hold no contempt for Gholgoth or the nations of APOC (I haven't seen APOC in action to make my own opinion on it yet). I was simply trying for a new RPing angle, from a press point-of-view, something I haven't really done yet. I've been working on developing two different writers, the rude, foul-mouthed one which you've all experienced in here and a much tamer, politer, but still critical one. I was going to put up the other one a little later, perhaps tonight.

Basically, I didn't mean to seem like I was blurring OOC and IC, I'm just experimenting around. If anyone was offended by my post, I'd be willing to take it down. Just shoot me a TG.

EDIT: I just reread what I had wrote, and yes, I can definitely see how one could see that as the blurring of OOC and IC, and I wasn't specifically clear about that. So I'll apologize for being so foggy.

And AMF, my writer is supposed to sound uneducated and inaccurate, which is why he quoted mostly news articles rather than actual government announcements. This was part of my plan to have readers detest him more. Once again, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Just a note in retrospect, it now makes me laugh that my paragraph or two of OOC speak got a "please take this out of the thread"

It wasn't because of OOC, McPsychoville, it was because you were being rude to Kampfers.

Ah.

So, Questers going "who the fuck are you" was supposed to be what? A sign of affection? Because over here, we...we prefer things like chocolate.

I think it was more to do with the fact that I've never heard of you before but somehow you're making qualitative comments about long established members of the international community. If somebody appears who I've never ever seen calls people like Praetonia or Doomingsland 'gnat bites' ICly, I'm entitled to make a rhetorical statement OOCly.

If you want affection you ought to learn your station.

The point, as you may have discerned from the latter bits (which you almost entirely ignored), was that your newspaper is so biased as to be completely unrealistic. If the United States organized an alliance directly aimed at containing and countering China, countless people would riot and/or protest.
I doubt they would if said alliance did not mention China or make any movements or statements at all concerning China, or had anything whatever particularly to do with China. Then again, even taking your false analogy, the US made NATO to contain its rivals, and protestors did not immediately rush onto the streets. What anti-NATO protests have occured have only done so in response to its actions, and APOC has made no actions as yet.

Which brings me to my next point. You cannot seriously believe that the legal responsibility and the practical responsibility of newspapers are the same. Yes, 'The Kingston Herald' can print [various ridiculous things] But that is, of course, utterly ludicrous for a paper that is profitable, widely distributed, and respected, and wishes to remain so. Yes, it has no responsibility except to its shareholders...but those shareholders expect reliable, reasonably unbiased, informative news.
On the contrary, appealing to the bias of their readers is a principle marketing tool for newspapers in RL. Not everyone in Praetonia is a Liberal-Tory (about 60% are, atm), of course, but the others buy different newspapers. Shareholders want a return on their investment, nothing more.

About people protesting, and the Entente metaphor: a bit flawed, because this is the sequel to a previous war. A better metaphor: if there had been a 'World War Zero' before WWI, during which London had been razed, Britain humiliated, and her economy ravaged, accompanied by the defeat of France and Russia, THEN we are brought to a realistic metaphorical portrayal of the present day (the Triple Alliance is, of course, Gholgoth, and the defeated Allies are Questers and her allies). And in that situation, I very much doubt the Allies would be willing to form another Entente (APOC).
Neither Praetonia nor APOC took part in the 4 Day War. APOC didn't even exist at the time - the last post on its original thread was in January last year.

In short, as I've pointed out, your people should not be so supportive of your governments' provocative diplomacy when they have already suffered stinging defeats at Gothic hands.
No, sorry, you don't know better than I do what Praetonians would think/do. You don't even seem to grasp the basic historical facts of the matter. This argument is making me lose the will to live.

[qupte]As for coming to grips with Gholgoth, I believe I have already demonstrated (I certainly hope so) that APOC exists to counter Gholgoth. History teaches us that such alliances (a la the Triple Entente, intended to counter the Triple Alliance) can rarely perform such a function without 'coming to grips' militarily.[/quote]
Your first statement is a subjective opinion not an empirical fact that can be used to base a wider argument on. We could go 'round in circles arguing whether it is or not (though I would rather not do so, as I don't like giving absolute answers to IC questions that are ambiguous IC via OOC), but it isn't possible for you to have proved that (indeed, I think you have done nothing of the sort), so it is not at all bad form to RP the person signing the treaty and the people observing it from within the country disagreeing with your opinion.

All in all, and I am NOT using this as an OOC barb to try to make myself feel superior, it looks to me that you simply quoted the passages you had an answer to, and ignored the rest, and the overall point along with it.
I ignored filler/points that were not relevant in light of criticism of their underlying assumptions (for instance, I ommited complaints about papers not reporting non-existant protests from the above). It is not a conspiracy, I'm simply try to keep the length of these OOC posts to a minimum.

If you want affection you ought to learn your station.

Never said I did, I just could have done without that. Remember, that was in-character. This entire nation has a massively inflated opinion of themselves as a military power, it's just like the head of the Armed Forces to say something along those lines. That thing about learning my station, though, that's a bit elitist isn't it? You might want to bring up my comparatively low population, but that's because this nation was dead for about nine months until it was recently revived, and similarly that's probably why you've never seen me.

Never said I did, I just could have done without that. Remember, that was in-character. This entire nation has a massively inflated opinion of themselves as a military power, it's just like the head of the Armed Forces to say something along those lines. That thing about learning my station, though, that's a bit elitist isn't it? You might want to bring up my comparatively low population, but that's because this nation was dead for about nine months until it was recently revived, and similarly that's probably why you've never seen me.

Given that Questers is elite, I highly doubt he cares if he is being elitist or not. And it really doesnt have to do with size, although that helps. It has to do with being a great rper and being likable OOCly.

Prae, check your TG's.

Chillax people, mmm kay?

Coming from the perspective of an outsider, I must say that I am thoroughly disgusted with both the members of APOC and Gholgoth. While AMF might have thought differently, the thinly veiled insults insinuated in each of your 'newspapers' was childish and unappealing. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Though the APOC alliance was once an anti-Gholgoth apparatus, this new alliance has yet to prove that it too will follow in the same steps. Any acts of aggression can only be attributed to the paranoia of Gholgoth representatives who sent threatening messages in the first place, calling this new version nothing more than a recast of the old. I find such obvious and misguided animosity useless. I had more faith in AMF, that he as leader of Gholgoth would show more restraint in how he responded to his own members actions and his own responses. I am also very disappointed in the actions of other APOC members who foolishly took the bait and stepped down a level to dirty themselves. Neither side at this point is blameless or clean.

Such petty bickering and fear over past events only leads us all to be worse people and disturbs the tranquility that we share in enjoying the rps that we create. It saddens me to no end.

Even though these events have shown me the lows of this alliance and the lows of its obvious opposition, I still hold respect for both and I will still press for my nations entry into APOC. Doomingsland, who thus far has been either absent on purpose or by accident from these events, needs make clear his thoughts on the situation and AMF, though you may despise the APOC alliance need also to quell all thoughts of war as has been displayed by the deployment of Gholgoth troops to Haven. Any action at this point is made with no pretext to a just war seeing as APOC has made no declaration of intention to directly oppose the Gholgoth.

Please do not believe me as trying to be the "holier than thou" type, as I am simply trying to be as non-biased as possible in this discussion. I would rather see us all enjoy this rise of a new alliance as a device to create new and exciting rps.

How the hell does anyone have three million ships, and how the hell does someone mobilize ten million people that quickly, and how the hell do people get to Haven from Gholgoth so quickly if it takes a boat going 30 knots an hour or so over a month to get there?

How the hell does anyone have three million ships, and how the hell does someone mobilize ten million people that quickly, and how the hell do people get to Haven from Gholgoth so quickly if it takes a boat going 30 knots an hour or so over a month to get there?

If the last bit refers to me, as we discussed, I had a fleet at Doomanum, which is almost in Haven. And since I am close to Doom, what with both of us being in the CAD region (as I understand it), my reinforcements to that fleet would get there relatively quickly.

How the hell does anyone have three million ships, and how the hell does someone mobilize ten million people that quickly, and how the hell do people get to Haven from Gholgoth so quickly if it takes a boat going 30 knots an hour or so over a month to get there?


Indeed, the matter of Warmaster's deployments are troubling. Such a massive deployment of what seems to be his entire military is entirely impossible. It would take years for such a massive deployment to happen. Fuel supplies would be exhausted within a matter of weeks if not days, not mention the hundred thousands, perhaps millions, of tons of supplies that would be need daily by any troops there. And to subject a smaller host country to support this helping force would cripple, in the least, its economy. Its absolutely impossible. Even AMF would be hard pressed to complete such a task. Now i could see such a sizeable force coming from the combined force of Gholgoth, but from a single nation, so fast, is impossible from any stretch of the imagination.

If the last bit refers to me, as we discussed, I had a fleet at Doomanum, which is almost in Haven. And since I am close to Doom, what with both of us being in the CAD region (as I understand it), my reinforcements to that fleet would get there relatively quickly.

Actually, Doom is Haven itself now.

Indeed, the matter of Warmaster's deployments are troubling. Such a massive deployment of what seems to be his entire military is entirely impossible. It would take years for such a massive deployment to happen. Fuel supplies would be exhausted within a matter of weeks if not days, not mention the hundred thousands, perhaps millions, of tons of supplies that would be need daily by any troops there. And to subject a smaller host country to support this helping force would cripple, in the least, its economy. Its absolutely impossible. Even AMF would be hard pressed to complete such a task. Now i could see such a sizeable force coming from the combined force of Gholgoth, but from a single nation, so fast, is impossible from any stretch of the imagination.

You know absolutely nothing about me; we have never interacted at all, that I remember, and certainly not militarily. Therefore you know nothing about my military.

For starters, these forces, while a significant percentage of my military (especially my navy) are nowhere near my entire military, a claim you had no right to make. Each individual ship carries sufficient supplies; the larger and more resource-consuming ones have resources for months at sea. This is standard for large vessels. And the hundreds of supply ships accompanying the fleet contain, among many other things, consumables for the fleet. I should also mention that the troops are not in combat and thus they need nothing more than food and water while being transported. These are easily available. So this fleet, rather than ravaging its host's economy, can actually support itself for quite some time.

You know nothing about my economy, or about my culture, or about my geography, that would allow you to make such claims as these. I already had a fleet of approximately seven thousand ships total off of the coast of Doomingsland, as I've already said. It is not very far from there to Innovata, by Havenic standards. This is a difficult and expensive venture to support. It is hardly impossible.

Zukariaa;13438980']Actually, Doom is Haven itself now.

IIRC the eastern coast of Doomingsland is located in Haven, while the rest of CAD is still to Doom's west. Originally Doom was in the west of CAD with coastline to his west, but to fit him into Haven the map of CAD was just flipped.

Then that fleet is engaged in a war four months or so ago. I'm fairly certain that a fleet that was engaged in a war would finish the war in that time period, and that time is set so that this 'conflict' is beginning in February whilst your fleet is involved in a war in September. I'm sure I had soldiers in Gholgoth nations when I was in the region, do they carry over? No.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but the fact is that it's not my fault the war has gone on so long. If you look, you'll notice the last post is mine. Doom had perfectly legitimate OOC reasons for being inactive in that thread, and so it has been inactive. However, since I have never sent my fleet away, it is assumed to still be there, simply not doing anything. Odd? Yes. But since nothing else has happened, that's the way things are.

If the last bit refers to me, as we discussed, I had a fleet at Doomanum, which is almost in Haven. And since I am close to Doom, what with both of us being in the CAD region (as I understand it), my reinforcements to that fleet would get there relatively quickly.

Then that fleet is engaged in a war four months or so ago. I'm fairly certain that a fleet that was engaged in a war would finish the war in that time period, and that time is set so that this 'conflict' is beginning in February whilst your fleet is involved in a war in September. I'm sure I had soldiers in Gholgoth nations when I was in the region, do they carry over? No.

Then that fleet is engaged in a war four months or so ago. I'm fairly certain that a fleet that was engaged in a war would finish the war in that time period, and that time is set so that this 'conflict' is beginning in February whilst your fleet is involved in a war in September. I'm sure I had soldiers in Gholgoth nations when I was in the region, do they carry over? No.

Different situation. You joined and left Gholgoth willingly. When you leave, you pull up everything and go with you.

Warmaster's forces never left. The ships are still sitting there.

Different situation. You joined and left Gholgoth willingly. When you leave, you pull up everything and go with you.

Warmaster's forces never left. The ships are still sitting there.

So Warmaster's forces have been sitting off the coast of Doomingsland since October? Doing nothing but wait while the Doomanis idle? Of course not! The battle is in fluid time, one can not simply just assume that their ships have been sitting off the Doomani coast for four/five months doing nothing.

His ships ain't going from Doomingsland in October to somewhere else in Haven in February.

So Warmaster's forces have been sitting off the coast of Doomingsland since October? Doing nothing but wait while the Doomanis idle? Of course not! The battle is in fluid time, one can not simply just assume that their ships have been sitting off the Doomani coast for four/five months doing nothing.

His ships ain't going from Doomingsland in October to somewhere else in Haven in February.

I left them there, and nobody said they left. So they were still there. And the OOC timeline of months has nothing to do with it. He didn't attack, and I didn't attack, so nothing happened. Nor have they been there for IC months, like you seem to be implying. If we used your plan, then every nation would go from a newb to a 2 billioner in 365 days, which is of course is ridiculous.

You know absolutely nothing about me; we have never interacted at all, that I remember, and certainly not militarily. Therefore you know nothing about my military.

What does that matter? Whether you are commanding a Greek phalanx or the Martian army, the fundamentals are the same.


For starters, these forces, while a significant percentage of my military (especially my navy) are nowhere near my entire military, a claim you had no right to make.

Did I make such a claim? I'm sure the word 'seem' was in there, making it clear that my assumption was based on not knowing but making an estimate from your nations size. Thank you for clarifying that it is not all, but indeed nearly all of your military.


Each individual ship carries sufficient supplies; the larger and more resource-consuming ones have resources for months at sea. This is standard for large vessels. And the hundreds of supply ships accompanying the fleet contain, among many other things, consumables for the fleet. I should also mention that the troops are not in combat and thus they need nothing more than food and water while being transported. These are easily available. So this fleet, rather than ravaging its host's economy, can actually support itself for quite some time.


A few months possibly, if I were to accept your supply-wank explanation; but not long enough to execute a full fledged war. Plus you state that since they're not in combat then you sacrifice the present space for food supplies which means in the event of combat your troops, based on your supply description, would be in constant need of more ammunition, etc.


You know nothing about my economy, or about my culture, or about my geography, that would allow you to make such claims as these. I already had a fleet of approximately seven thousand ships total off of the coast of Doomingsland, as I've already said. It is not very far from there to Innovata, by Havenic standards. This is a difficult and expensive venture to support. It is hardly impossible.

Culture has little to do with this. The fact that a previous fleet is in the area means it must already absorb the majority of your supplies, creating problems for the vast deployment of fresh troops that you describe. And what exactly are Havenic standards? Instant travel? Wish I could be so bold as to wank that from time to time. Geography is also an important factor. Unless of course all of your nations harbours are large and perfectly made, that civilia traffic is stopped on a dime, and air space is cleared at the drop of the hat.

By my estimation, to even begin deploying these troops would require at least three years to accomplish all at once, which in turn would cause such a drastic decrease in supplies as to immobilize your already deployed fleet off the coast of doomingsland. The D-Day invasion took a little over a year to complete, and it was only 1.2 million men, combining the close and well planned cooperation between the Navy, Army, and Air Force. Even with the advancement of technology this type of feat would take a marginal amount of preparation and planning. Your hap-hazard and ludicrous deployment is, as I said, impossible under so short a time.

Its simply a fact.

Your hap-hazard and ludicrous deployment is, as I said, impossible under so short a time.

Its simply a fact.


As much as I would agree with you, these size deployments happen all the time on NS. It is somehow assumed that your military is logistical masterminds and all the supplies get there via thousands of ships, planes, and trucks. Good Rpers, however, usually will RP attacks on these supply lines and supply shortages. However these sized deployments have become a staple of NS and its not going to change because of realism requirements.

So Warmaster's forces have been sitting off the coast of Doomingsland since October? Doing nothing but wait while the Doomanis idle? Of course not! The battle is in fluid time, one can not simply just assume that their ships have been sitting off the Doomani coast for four/five months doing nothing.

His ships ain't going from Doomingsland in October to somewhere else in Haven in February.

Well, how about this: War gets his fleet in Haven, you get a fleet in Gholgoth.

I'd be all for that... after all, I hate long commutes.

I left them there, and nobody said they left. So they were still there. And the OOC timeline of months has nothing to do with it. He didn't attack, and I didn't attack, so nothing happened. Nor have they been there for IC months, like you seem to be implying. If we used your plan, then every nation would go from a newb to a 2 billioner in 365 days, which is of course is ridiculous.

Oh, so all of these boats are severely undersupplied and a majority of seamen (hehe) are dead due to starvation? :P

As much as I would agree with you, these size deployments happen all the time on NS. It is somehow assumed that your military is logistical masterminds and all the supplies get there via thousands of ships, planes, and trucks. Good Rpers, however, usually will RP attacks on these supply lines and supply shortages. However these sized deployments have become a staple of NS and its not going to change because of realism requirements.

I've noticed that trend and do my best to fight against it, but clear logic is hard pressed to defeat ego.

I've noticed that trend and do my best to fight against it, but clear logic is hard pressed to defeat ego.

Yes, but at the same wouldn't you admit its more fun to roleplay with larger numbers? Also, without these sized deployments invading another nation across the ocean would be impossible. The large numbers are there for practicality more than for ego.

Yes, but at the same wouldn't you admit its more fun to roleplay with larger numbers? Also, without these sized deployments invading another nation across the ocean would be impossible. The large numbers are there for practicality more than for ego.

Large numbers are fine so long as they are rp'd properly. If Warmaster had stated something along the lines of "and these forces will be deployed across a span of some time" or other then I might be fine with it.

For myself the biggest formation of troops that I could move at the drop of a hat would be at most a corp in size, if even that.

Oh, so all of these boats are severely undersupplied and a majority of seamen (hehe) are dead due to starvation? :P

No. Didn't you read what I said? They haven't been there for months.

Thrashia:

1. No, they're not. Some armies have better logistics capabilities than others. Saying 'the principles are the same' doesn't let you compare Spartans and Martians, and yes, I know you were using a ridiculous example, but it's still true. Saying 'the principles are the same' doesn't mean you can compare Alexander the Great's army to the Czarist Russian Army.

2. It's not 'nearly all', either. You clearly have no idea of the size of NS militaries.

3. On NS, wars do not take months, with a few exceptions. Wars take a very short time, simply because people like to put in lots of action and not write about long periods of boring transit time or entrenchment time, etc etc. And it's not wank. Ships carry supplies. It's not a difficult explanation to understand. Haven't you ever seen, on a ship design, something telling you how long they can remain at sea, limited by consumables? My carriers, for example, have five months' worth of consumables.

4. Oh, so since a fleet is there, it's already draining the logistics capacity of nation almost to the breaking point, is that it? No. Havenic standards, by the way, refers to Haven's immense size. Apparently you have never seen a Haven map. And by those standards, from Doom to Innovata is not that far. By RL standards, yes, it's a damn long way. And no, not all my harbors are large and perfectly made. The major ones are. That's why they're major. And traffic can be cleared, as September 11th proved, in a matter of hours. Hardly enough to delay deployment by a significant margin.

5. It's a damn shame you think it's a fact, because you're wrong. We are not all bound by the limits of D-Day as the ultimate example of what militaries can aspire to, for one. I don't know why you think you are qualified to make estimates like this; I have more than a strong enough economy to support the transports, the warships, the soldiers, the materiel, and the cost of supplying them.

EDIT: About your little ego comment: like I said before, nobody wants to waste time RPing for days on end "The fleet is moving." "The fleet is still moving." "It's almost there. Oh, and they're using up fuel which eventually I'll have to resupply." RPs would end up looking like Oregon Trail logs. This is just the way things are, and your buddies in APOC do it just as much as I.

Large numbers are fine so long as they are rp'd properly. If Warmaster had stated something along the lines of "and these forces will be deployed across a span of some time" or other then I might be fine with it.

For myself the biggest formation of troops that I could move at the drop of a hat would be at most a corp in size, if even that.


I agree wholeheartedly. Whenever I RP a large number of troops moving I usually add a paragraph explaining how the supplies had been gathering for months and some such. Admittedly this barely does justice to the amounts normally deployed, but roleplaying logistics is a lot less fun than roleplaying combat. However I do enjoy roleplaying supply shortages of all types, from shortage of fuel to shortage of socks.
" Hey, Joe, I got a few pron mags from back home. I need those socks. Let's trade."
" Hell no! I had to fucking bribe the supply dude with war trophies to get this pair! You ain't getting it!"

http://www.nodulo.org/ec/2007/img/n066p13.jpg

Clausewitz would not be pleased.

http://www.nodulo.org/ec/2007/img/n066p13.jpg

Clausewitz would not be pleased.

Gasp! Not Clausewitz!

My lord, if I had any room I would sig this.