NationStates Jolt Archive

As the thread is getting rather large and crowded, I have decided to put this thread up. So please put all pure-OOC remarks here.

Related to: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=548516

Can we please have a list of who's on who's side here?

Obviously there are three sides:

1. Coalition(Pro-Fabian)
2. Invaders(Anti-Fabian)
3. Neutrals(Leaning towards Pro-Fabians)

Now we just need to figure out who is on what side.

Also, should we close the thread? It's kind of getting crowded...

Principality of Northern Rangeria.

Coalition, leaning towards neutral.

Presence in the area: Fifth Battle Group on international waters outside St Fabian waters under the command of Commodore Tilhi
+
KATK Orion, carrier vessel on geosynchronous orbit above St Fabian (Will be removed from game, whatever happens with Axis Nova and Pequod), under the command of Capt. Junila.

United Duchies:

Status: Neutral, but leaning towards invading Saint Fabian ourselves.

Forces: St Fabian International waters: 1 K class Q ship
On Route to St Fabian Region: 4th Fleet, Admiral Horn Commanding
On Route to Catawaba: 711th Taskforce, under Royal Consul, Countess Anne Winton

Pro the populace of St Fabians, not necessarily the current government of same. Will not tollerate an invasion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and I rather agree to closing the thread to additional involvement, the playing card is gettingkinda full...

Current Presence in Arena....

Mercy Task Force in international waters off of Saint Fabiens

Third Fleet enoute.

Various orbital assets - most will not come into play unless Axis Nova continues his/her intrusion.

Most will not come into play regardless of what I decide to do if they interfere with me, except perhaps as expanding clouds of gas and debris. =p

Northern Rangeria, the Pequod is one of the many Hraesvelgr-class spaceplanes out there escorting about the small armada of dropships that are transporting the forces I have on standby. It's not any big capital ship or whatever, as I'm sure you noted from your read over the Hraesvelgr's stats (which I linked...)

What I have in orbit at the moment are a large number of Valkyrie dropships (sufficient to carry the four mechanized divisions I'll be deploying if things go pear shaped), a few dozen Hraesvelgrs to escort them, and a lot of multi-purpose pods filled with various things that I tend to use during drop operations. A couple of bomber-variant Valkyries are there as well, albiet, primarily loaded with anti-ship munitions such as the Spectre antiship missile (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13359562&postcount=58).

Naturally, the above is OOC info; none of you know what any of this stuff is in-character. Likewise, IC, I don't know much about your ships beyond what satellite surveillance can pick up ;)

As for my objectives in the current theatre, that remains to be seen. Axis Nova certainly doesn't view itself as an invading power...

Most will not come into play regardless of what I decide to do if they interfere with me, except perhaps as expanding clouds of gas and debris. =p

Northern Rangeria, the Pequod is one of the many Hraesvelgr-class spaceplanes out there escorting about the small armada of dropships that are transporting the forces I have on standby. It's not any big capital ship or whatever, as I'm sure you noted from your read over the Hraesvelgr's stats (which I linked...)

What I have in orbit at the moment are a large number of Valkyrie dropships (sufficient to carry the four mechanized divisions I'll be deploying if things go pear shaped), a few dozen Hraesvelgrs to escort them, and a lot of multi-purpose pods filled with various things that I tend to use during drop operations. A couple of bomber-variant Valkyries are there as well, albiet, primarily loaded with anti-ship munitions such as the Spectre antiship missile (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13359562&postcount=58).

Naturally, the above is OOC info; none of you know what any of this stuff is in-character. Likewise, IC, I don't know much about your ships beyond what satellite surveillance can pick up ;)

As for my objectives in the current theatre, that remains to be seen. Axis Nova certainly doesn't view itself as an invading power...

Grand, grand... If it is okay with you, please Telegram me some numbers of the fleet, based on the one active scan the Orion took before she ground to a halt. You don't have to give everything away, just a rough estimate of the number and type of ships ;)

Also, the Orion is not a capital vessel either, but more akin to an aircraft carrier. Most of her size is taken up by housing the atmospheric vessels she transported to the region during the early phase of the conflict.

Thank you, Axis. Much appreciated.

Red Tide, this is a brilliant idea, pard.

The Armed Republic of Catawaba

Status: Neutral, Highly supportive of the Fabian populace and only supportive of the Fabian government until the will of populace is proven

Stance on Invasion: Staunchly against any invasion of Saint Fabian

Forces: Catawaban Second Fleet
~1 Type-I Guided Missile Cruiser (Ticonderoga-class copy)
~4 Type-R Guided Missile Destroyers (Arliegh Burke-class copies)
~10 SU-49 SeaWallaby helicopters (Inspired by the X-49 SpeedHawk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piasecki_X-49))
~5 squads of Catawaban Marines

It is i that thanks you, we now have the oppurtunity to defeat the tide of evil and oppression. as for the issue of airfields, i shall send engineers ahead of my main forces, they will construct the necissary structures. Together we shall create a peaceful and prosperous future for both our nations.

Yours In Alliance And Friendship
President Daniel Smith

OOC: Pardon my insensitivity, but I do find this position to be rather "lol-inducing" considering your paltry defense budget (http://nstracker.org/index.php?nation=Eureka+Island), but hey, far be it from me to criticize the size of offerings of the new people - I'm coming to help one, though his new government doesn't seem to realize that... oh well.

Massive for you, perhaps.

edit: agh time warp

...check the totals, son. If you want to see a "massive" amount, perhaps you should make use of the comparison feature (http://nstracker.org/index.php?nation=eureka_island&nation2=Bretton).

Eh, I didn't RP until I was at about 900 million. And no, I didn't get a TG from you - send again?

Whoa, Jolt hiccup.

And Bretton, nations do what they can with what they have - you too were a young and relatively poor nation once. It might behoove you to remember that.

And did you get my TG?

I'm pro Fabian, I have a recon fleet in the area now, and two War Fleets moving in rather quickly.

Imperial Federated States of Romandeos:

Side: Coalition

Level of Commitment: Willing to fight

I have a sizeable naval force in the area now, and land forces en route.

Wait a minute, I object to the term "pro Fabian" to refer to people who view Red Tide and I as the bad guys in this conflict. I am pro-Fabian, that's why I'm moving to depose the illegitimate murdering government and shoo away the international fleets that put the onus on a rebellion in the first place.

That said, it's also not my intention to restore Tranderson to power, since, among other things, apparently he and the ruling class are all dead, so I also object to the term "Tranderson Alliance" unless that's made as a general pejorative, e.g. how I use the term "Bolshevik".

Groans, oh gods recreating that will be miserable...I loathe Jolt's TG feature, give me regular PM's where you can save a copy...grrrrrrrrr

Let me see what I can do...thanks for letting me know


I've always liked the live communication method, MSN when possible.

Groans, oh gods recreating that will be miserable...I loathe Jolt's TG feature, give me regular PM's where you can save a copy...grrrrrrrrr

Let me see what I can do...thanks for letting me know

No worries, Tanaara. I'm sure it was important if you were going to TG it to me.

Groans, oh gods recreating that will be miserable...I loathe Jolt's TG feature, give me regular PM's where you can save a copy...grrrrrrrrr

Let me see what I can do...thanks for letting me know

Wait a minute, I object to the term "pro Fabian" to refer to people who view Red Tide and I as the bad guys in this conflict. I am pro-Fabian, that's why I'm moving to depose the illegitimate murdering government and shoo away the international fleets that put the onus on a rebellion in the first place.

That said, it's also not my intention to restore Tranderson to power, since, among other things, apparently he and the ruling class are all dead, so I also object to the term "Tranderson Alliance" unless that's made as a general pejorative, e.g. how I use the term "Bolshevik".

Hmm...here out of character, the Pro-Fabian/Anti-Fabian stuff is wrong. So an extended clarification like Tanaara or I did might be advisable.

In character however, I figure that the 'Tranderson Alliance' is an entirely pejorative term used to paint you and Red Tide in a horrible light. The Coalition IC personalities have gotten fed up with being called agitators and are flinging some of the mud back. So there, brown bear.

Oh, and Bretton, Eureka spends more on defense that I do. I'm lucky I managed to get a defense issue a couple of days ago to boost my budget percentage in that category.

Romandeos is in this to prevent St. Fabian becoming somebody else's puppet.

Not to mention a few new allies would be nice.

Revolutionary Commonwealth of Wagdog

Side: Neutral, edging towards Bretton.

Commitment: Sticking around, first to rescue United Duchies civilians. After that, holding position until either diplomacy works or else we have to take action ourselves to prevent the worst-case scenario.

Stance: Against an invasion in principle, but in practice increasingly inclined to assist Bretton in invading after the rescue operation to impose a compromise solution. Not yet knowing similar United Duchies' sentiment, even if having ourselves obliquely proposed a Coalition invasion to beat Bretton to the punch, Wagdog's 8th Fleet is still in an awkward position to say the least of it...

Hmm...here out of character, the Pro-Fabian/Anti-Fabian stuff is wrong. So an extended clarification like Tanaara or I did might be advisable.

In character however, I figure that the 'Tranderson Alliance' is an entirely pejorative term used to paint you and Red Tide in a horrible light. The Coalition IC personalities have gotten fed up with being called agitators and are flinging some of the mud back. So there, brown bear.

Oh, and Bretton, Eureka spends more on defense that I do. I'm lucky I managed to get a defense issue a couple of days ago to boost my budget percentage in that category.

Actually, check again. His exchange rate (http://nstracker.org/index.php?nation=eureka_island&nation2=Catawaba) factored in actually kills the numerical superiority. Broken down into NS$, you're about 10 billion ahead due to a stronger currency.

LOL I vote for Catawaba as the new NS UN Secretary General... Have him head it for a few years and I might be persuaded to join.

He also gets my "Best Newcomer to the Game" - and a round of standing applause. Now say again which rl nation do you run?

Heh. Thanks, Tanaara. Now stop before I blush or it all goes to my head.

I'd have to turn down the nomination to be NSUN Secretary General...I don't want to deal with those nutbirds, if I can't resort to the flippant sarcasm some of the rightfully deserve. I've had to to cut back on my posting in the UN forum for that reason, I otherwise heartily enjoy my Regional Delegate status and RPing Hayden Seigfried: Ace UN Ambassador in his ongoing struggles against evil dictators, rampant ignorance, shody proposal authors.


Bretton, wow, that is a good point. Forgot that pesky thing, exchange rates. Sure makes me feel better about my paltry armed forces. I'm sure Miraade Errant and General Tom Waverly of the War Office are going on a spending spree real soon. Especially for military transport aircraft, as you will soon see.

Okay maybe this will help. ...

http://www.atddm.com/fleetdep.jpg

These are basted on info given and believed accepted earlier...

You will notice that I have not placed any other fleets that may have moved into or out of the zone of conflict. Nor have I placed Brettons planes proposed landing place.

I did not know the size of St Fabiens map, so I did not place Red Tide - per game posts - they are five hundred miles out to the east. about where that thing red line loop is?

Tarlachia, Imitora and the Tanaaran Third Fleet are coming up hard from behind Red Tide.

If you will give me your locations I'll gladly add them to the map and host it. Just TG me or make a post here.

RCW Eighth Fleet (RCW is fine) is in the broad Yellow Sea area here, patrolling for our rescue operation for the United Duchies' civilians before we decide what else to do; still broadly in agreement with the stated preference of remaining southerly and though in international waters nonetheless further in than the Romandean fleet. Has St. Fabian indicated where his apparent capital of Gorgon is on this? That will naturally decide much of course.

Oi, we need this. I clearly had a different picture in my head.

From Bretton's post, the Brettonian air wing made a turn to port, left for you landlubbers. So that would put them on a curving course south of Romandeos's position. I put my forces smack dab in the middle, so I just went ahead and altered the map.

The triangular "B" represents the Brettonians with the brown line as their course. The painfully small Catawaban skull on heart is my flotilla.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/jedierrant/fleetdep.jpg

The painfully small Catawaban skull on heart is my flotilla.




Skull on a heart? Love the dead and dying? :P

Nice pic editing. That really helps too.

Don't forget, Catawaba, that a second Romandeosian fleet is coming in. Thanks for the pic. It helps.

It looks like things are about to get hairy.

...erm, it's basically not possible to build a hovercraft on the scale being described. Especially not if you're weighing it down with thousands of tons of armor and weapons.

Hovercraft are built extremely lightweight for a reason.

Even if it was possible, rip in bag = ship sinks immediately.

Okay - If you will notice I added in Wagdog to the one above and put in my best guess (and it is a guess only as to where the international warters line is ( that raggedy assed line of black dots...

It's not a hot air balloon. Hovercraft function by compressing air surrounding a ship and forcing it downward beneath it, effectively lifting it from the surface. While it wouldn't be as high off the surface while on the water due to the nature of water, it would nevertheless hover.

All in all, just take it as a slight stretch of the imagination. I know it seems impossible to imagine, but then again, airplanes, for all the weight they are, are not supposed to fly. Bumblebees are not supposed to fly.

But they do.

Here's an easier to see, incorporating all known developments...

and come on floks we're fighting a war where a good portion of the troops are gbeing FLOWN in by things as big as foot ball fields, and well I did mention Imitora's kilometer long Super Ds's didn't I?

And Romandeos, just let me know where your second fleet is coming in at.

http://www.atddm.com/fleetdep.jpg

It's not a hot air balloon. Hovercraft function by compressing air surrounding a ship and forcing it downward beneath it, effectively lifting it from the surface. While it wouldn't be as high off the surface while on the water due to the nature of water, it would nevertheless hover.

All in all, just take it as a slight stretch of the imagination. I know it seems impossible to imagine, but then again, airplanes, for all the weight they are, are not supposed to fly. Bumblebees are not supposed to fly.

But they do.

Agggh! It's so frustrating because I recalling reading some kind of technology in developement by some real world navy along these lines. I know the principles it works on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planing_%28sailing%29). The same strategy has been utilized by real navies using hydrofoils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofoil)like 'waterwings' (no, not those things you use to keep kiddies from drowning). It pushes the bow up out of the water allowing the hull to almost float over the surface of the water.

What Tarlachia is using is another way to plane. Instead of lifting the ship above the water to achieve the quasi-cushion of air, engine power is being used to duct air under the hull and push it up above the waves. I want to say the Norwegians...or the Finns are working on something like this. I came across it while I was looking around wikipedia trying to find inspiration for the next generation Catawaban Navy.

Here's an easier to see, incorporating all known developments...

and come on floks we're fighting a war where a good portion of the troops are gbeing FLOWN in by things as big as foot ball fields, and well I did mention Imitora's kilometer long Super Ds's didn't I?

And Romandeos, just let me know where your second fleet is coming in at.

http://www.atddm.com/fleetdep.jpg

It is coming in from the map's southeastern edge, intending to link up with my first fleet.

Eureka, unless you have teleportation technology you're not sharing with the rest of us. There is no way you could mobilize, travel, transit the zone of contention, land, unload, set up, and build air strips this fast.

I take that back, you'd need some temporal displacement device as well.

Why the hell did you guys make me brown? It's like the ugliest color ever. Anyway...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/MalikCarr/52acadab.jpg

This would be a closer approximation of things. The question marks represent where my people will go next, BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW! Ha ha.

Anyway, the only thing I want to posit right now is that fleets that have been dispatched after I posted the whereabouts of my relief force really shouldn't be joining up anytime soon - ships moving at +/- 30kts (if that) are not going to get here anywhere near as fast as aircraft moving at about 680 km/h. I especially have a grievance for Eureka Island already having an entire army dug in in St. Fabian - did he teleport them there or something? That said he just started this month so I suppose you should expect that sort of thing.

It's not a hot air balloon. Hovercraft function by compressing air surrounding a ship and forcing it downward beneath it, effectively lifting it from the surface. While it wouldn't be as high off the surface while on the water due to the nature of water, it would nevertheless hover.

All in all, just take it as a slight stretch of the imagination. I know it seems impossible to imagine, but then again, airplanes, for all the weight they are, are not supposed to fly. Bumblebees are not supposed to fly.

But they do.

You're talking about enough energy to lift the entire weight of a ship up from the water and suspend it there on an air cushion, constantly. Whatever reactors you're using to produce that kind of power, I'd sure like to buy some.

I'm not going to insist they be discluded from this RP since they're in already, but I do hope you will consider their shortcomings in the future (and drop by the Draftroom, many folks more knowledable than myself can explain the problems with your concept in greater detail).

I will also note that hovercraft propel themselves via props blowing air behind them, using rudders to turn and maneuver. Surely you can imagine how slow something like this would be to accelerate and brake using such a method.

I won't place myself on the map, since I can land my force effectively anywhere I want. ;p It's safe to assume that I will NOT be landing ground troops on the water, however.

Eureka, unless you have teleportation technology you're not sharing with the rest of us. There is no way you could mobilize, travel, transit the zone of contention, land, unload, set up, and build air strips this fast.

I take that back, you'd need some temporal displacement device as well.



Gah, may apologies. i left my PC when i pledged support for St Fabian (had to go to work) and my little bro thought hed have a go (little being 14). Ill get rid of those posts now. Once again i apologize. oh and no i dont have a HUGE defence budget lol, another dream of my little idiot bro.

Ah, that's cool, Eureka. Believe it or not, I had a friend do that to me on Lord of the Rings Online. I let him play to see if he liked it, and wham I come back and he's shafted my kingroup, my character's last name. It was fun to say the least.

Ah, that's cool, Eureka. Believe it or not, I had a friend do that to me on Lord of the Rings Online. I let him play to see if he liked it, and wham I come back and he's shafted my kingroup, my character's last name. It was fun to say the least.



hehe, yeah it is very annoying. in future ill log off of my PC lol. he got my course of action right thouhg, although not exactly.

Why the hell did you guys make me brown? It's like the ugliest color ever. Anyway...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/MalikCarr/52acadab.jpg

This would be a closer approximation of things. The question marks represent where my people will go next, BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW! Ha ha.

Anyway, the only thing I want to posit right now is that fleets that have been dispatched after I posted the whereabouts of my relief force really shouldn't be joining up anytime soon - ships moving at +/- 30kts (if that) are not going to get here anywhere near as fast as aircraft moving at about 680 km/h. I especially have a grievance for Eureka Island already having an entire army dug in in St. Fabian - did he teleport them there or something? That said he just started this month so I suppose you should expect that sort of thing.



Sorry bout that, it wasnt me posting all of that, it was my little brother. ive since deleted those posts :)

Im still on Fabians side though. It may not have been me posting but he got my course of action more or less correct. Id like my fleet added to the equation please :)

Tanaara, I sent you a TG. You should check it out.

Agggh! It's so frustrating because I recalling reading some kind of technology in developement by some real world navy along these lines. I know the principles it works on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planing_%28sailing%29). The same strategy has been utilized by real navies using hydrofoils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofoil)like 'waterwings' (no, not those things you use to keep kiddies from drowning). It pushes the bow up out of the water allowing the hull to almost float over the surface of the water.

What Tarlachia is using is another way to plane. Instead of lifting the ship above the water to achieve the quasi-cushion of air, engine power is being used to duct air under the hull and push it up above the waves. I want to say the Norwegians...or the Finns are working on something like this. I came across it while I was looking around wikipedia trying to find inspiration for the next generation Catawaban Navy.

I know what you're talking about, and it's similar, but not quite. Look at the following link. I've seen these military hovercraft (US Navy LCAC hovercraft) in person (and obviously thought they were rather cool), and while it might have issues with turbulent seas in real life, I have seen them be able to taken on moderate waves just fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovercraft

With that in mind, now just imagine the next step up from there. Capability to handle the tenacity of the ocean when land is no longer in sight. That there is effectively where Tarlachian hovercraft technology resides. It just takes a bit of stretched imagination, as I'm personally not very sure on what would theoretically work to make naval fleets move like this; other than a greater displacement factor (ie: more force/power).

I won't say I know anything about hovercraft, but I do have a good enough idea of them to use them somewhat realistically.


You're talking about enough energy to lift the entire weight of a ship up from the water and suspend it there on an air cushion, constantly. Whatever reactors you're using to produce that kind of power, I'd sure like to buy some.

I'm not going to insist they be discluded from this RP since they're in already, but I do hope you will consider their shortcomings in the future (and drop by the Draftroom, many folks more knowledable than myself can explain the problems with your concept in greater detail).

I will also note that hovercraft propel themselves via props blowing air behind them, using rudders to turn and maneuver. Surely you can imagine how slow something like this would be to accelerate and brake using such a method.

I won't place myself on the map, since I can land my force effectively anywhere I want. ;p It's safe to assume that I will NOT be landing ground troops on the water, however.

You have a better idea of what I'm thinking about in terms of hovercraft. However, read what I wrote above and give a bit of stretched imagination to the whole deal. As for speed, being slow to accelerate and brake might actually be an issue (I hadn't really thought on that) but once it gets up to speed, it's fast.

There's one hovercraft that set a record crossing the English Channel in 22 minutes. Info on this can be seen in the link I provided.

Oh, and where is this "Draftroom"? ;)

The black dot is our capital, Gorgon. It is on the water.

Map:
http://a17.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/112/l_8c151a95d40b8ae0264ae6a441ec89e8.png

The black dot is our capital, Gorgon. It is on the water.

Map:
http://a17.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/112/l_8c151a95d40b8ae0264ae6a441ec89e8.png

You mean like Venice?

Nice map, by the way.

Okay given some information that I am compiling from various posts made...

St Fabian :

as we have no real navy or air force at this time, the previous regime didn't believe in boats, and never really saw how useful aircraft could be in combat. We barely have an army even. So...

Currently we are producing 150 CK07 Laser Sharpened Combat Knives a day, under license from Yanitarian Arms at a factory ...

We thank you, though I do not think we have reliable airfields that would be capable of receiving your bombers....

as most of the nation lack even the most basic learning, they barely know how to read, and write, and some not even that, and therefore would not be suitable to hold any office of government, and those that are, are members of the Society,

Saint Fabian - given these various quotes pulled from your posts - could you please give all of us some idea of the tech level of your nation?

Also intell would have given the varous nations concerned some idea of your military's status/state, and such infra structure as airports, communications systems, long distance transport ( ie Rail/ Highways? etc ).

If we're going to fight a war in asia we need to know what we are doing, even if it's not necessarily a land war ( and yes I love mangling quotes)

Romandeos, I think by 'on the water' Fabian means its a port city. That's what I use to describe my dad's hometown in Florida. I'd say Venice is rather 'in the water.'

~~~~

Tarlachia,

It's not quite what you are talking about or what I thought it was, but this is what I was trying to cite last night, Norweign Skjold-class littoral combat ship (http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/MEDIA/fathom/issues/JanMar03/isskjold.htm). Now that basic philosophy of a catamaran hull with an air skirt in the middle, works find and dandy for a coastal patrol craft.

If you upped it to scale and wanted to keep the ocean-going deep draft you'd want in a capital class ship, you'd have to have a huge skrit and lift a god-awful majority of your ship up and out of the water...it'd probably be top heavy. Of course, this is all seat of the pants, arm-chair nautical engineering.

NS Draftroom (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?act=idx)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tanaara,

To me it seems like Saint Fabian's fuedal society got to the Sixteenth Century and decided "Alright! All new technological innovation and social progression is right out! Anything that supports currently held traditions is just fine!" That would explain the laser-honed combat knives and the total 'if man were meant to fly, God'd given him wings' mentality. They stopped at a point in the innovation naval design and combat was just starting to occur, somewhere around England's little scrap with the Spanish Armada. So, ships as transports but not to take away from the tried and true boots on shores method of fighting. Guns would have been introduced in musketeer regiments, so perhaps the Tranderson family saw a use in letting limited 'rifleteers' continue on as time went.

So my computer-chair speculation of Tranderson state is a mostly infantry-based, perhaps dismounted cavalry or motorized infantry, or pure cavalry if the nobles were still fighting. Rifles, perhaps some basic towed artillery pieces, I might speculate a reliance or pride in training with blades, bayonet and even sword. Laser-honed combat knives, laser-honed combat swords.

Not that this forces anything on you, Fabian. I just like speculation. It's fun and I can go on for hours. It's why I like RPing, speculation with others to encourage my meandering thoughts.

Hate to post right after mine although Tanaara posted and deleted because of jolt temporal distortion, but that's the reason I'm posting again because Tanaara just view the thread, want to bump it so its noticed.

Tanaara, will the message to Catawaba include that the Queen herself is enroute to Saint Fabian?

LOL Jolt is being really weird I had edited in the IC thread to include messages to Starkey and Fuller ( you and Romandeos respectively ) and it freaked and errased that part

But yes it will include that information -

And I agree on your speculations Catawaba though like You I agree that it is noting but speculation ( but yes it is ever so fun to speculate - better than gossip even :p ;)

Wll make another post inviting Starkey and Fuller to dinner in a minute

Okay given some information that I am compiling from various posts made...

St Fabian :

Saint Fabian - given these various quotes pulled from your posts - could you please give all of us some idea of the tech level of your nation?

Also intell would have given the varous nations concerned some idea of your military's status/state, and such infra structure as airports, communications systems, long distance transport ( ie Rail/ Highways? etc ).

If we're going to fight a war in asia we need to know what we are doing, even if it's not necessarily a land war ( and yes I love mangling quotes)

We have airports, but for small prop planes mostly, a few small corporate jets, nothing like a 707 or anything that big, so modern military bombers would be unable to land as, A, they wouldn't have enough runway, and, b, they're weight would damage the runways, as they were not designed for such weight. Also many airports are really only strips of dirt with a guy in a shack with a radio. We have phones, no real internet right now, other than the odd dial-up connection. Military communication is basically radios, no satellites, or anything like that. We have no combat planes, but do have transport planes, similar to say a C-47s, and c-54s, again nothing really bigger or heavier than our civilian transports. We have automobiles, and therefore roads, though no real highway system, and many dirt roads. Railroads are also quite common. We have a basic army, though no real command structure, as that was the nobles who were killed. So basically its all low level infantry, armed with 50's era rifles, similar to the M14, a few machine guns, horses, though the only ones trained in horseback combat were, again the dead nobles, and basic transports, similar to the American Jeep. They also still use sword bayonets, and we are as you said producing combat knives. The satellites really wouldn't see much, as there are really no bases, as the bases are really the nobles estates, and the military equipment housed inside, so basically you would all see a bunch of farmland, a few villas, and some cities, the occasional road here and there, so railroads, and some telephone poles, most of the power plants would be coal and in the cities. If you need more info, just ask a specific question and I will attempt to furnish you an answer.

What about artillery, Fabian? With the concievable tech level I could easily see something along the lines of WWI-era light field gun (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_13_pounder) or WWII howitzer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.7_inch_Mountain_Howitzer). Because you know, nothing frightens uppity, rebellious peasants more than a good dose of shrapnel rounds from longer ranges or caseshot when they're trying to storm the palace.

Looks at Saint Fabian's state of the nation and weeps....oy vey...land war in asia indeed...

thank gods I brought in my own air controll personel and equipment, and my marines ought to have scared the p's and q's outta the locals, even with the teddybears...

I canhelp you work out something with that, St. Fabian, quite easily.

It's like the Opening of China or the Boxer Rebellion all over again...

Oh, we need to address scale distances on the map, St. Fabian, and fleets. Is that realistically the size of Japan and Manchuria? Or, is that some smaller sized nation with a barrier chain of islands that just happens to look like a ink blot test for Japan and Manchuria?

PS Tanaara, yer changes still haven't come through...

And on Teddy bears, the Catawaba-based Bard Gun Company is filling to develop a teddy bear version of this: the Kitty Cornershot (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3tubr_future-weapons-kitty-cornershot_videogames). The people at Bard pride themselves on a good manical laugh with every innovation.

OOC: If it wasn't for the weight involved, the M14 would be an almost perfect weapon. My special operations troops all carry a shortened version of the M14, Springfield's SOCOM II. Lots of guys in Iraq also carry the thing.

Any infantry force armed with that can be pretty respectable when used correctly. Guerilla warfare anyone?

OMG< Catawaba you are so wretched! :p I'm an old cat herder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTdqqJI02HE)

Might be a bit tough without access to good anti-tank weapons or shoulder launched SAMs, but you could get pretty creative to deal with the ground forces. Though it'd be ugly, we're talking Japan's planned defense of the Home Islands-type ugly.

Hey, I have no control over the R&D division at Bard. I just try to cut funding to things like Enriched-Potassium Bananas that explode in water.

OOC: If it wasn't for the weight involved, the M14 would be an almost perfect weapon. My special operations troops all carry a shortened version of the M14, Springfield's SOCOM II. Lots of guys in Iraq also carry the thing.

Any infantry force armed with that can be pretty respectable when used correctly. Guerilla warfare anyone?

Guerilla warfare indeed, my friend. That is St. Fabian's only real hope until he is able to modernize a little.

~~~~

Tarlachia,

It's not quite what you are talking about or what I thought it was, but this is what I was trying to cite last night, Norweign Skjold-class littoral combat ship (http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/MEDIA/fathom/issues/JanMar03/isskjold.htm). Now that basic philosophy of a catamaran hull with an air skirt in the middle, works find and dandy for a coastal patrol craft.

If you upped it to scale and wanted to keep the ocean-going deep draft you'd want in a capital class ship, you'd have to have a huge skirt and lift a god-awful majority of your ship up and out of the water...it'd probably be top heavy. Of course, this is all seat of the pants, arm-chair nautical engineering.

NS Draftroom (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?act=idx)


Thanks, that article on the Skjold was rather entertaining to read, and it's actually really helped me to further understand just how and what I'm trying to achieve myself. The ships' top-heavy problem could probably be corrected with a wider berth, further allowing it to be more stable in rough seas. In the article about that Skjold, they talk about the twin hulls being made of a composite material and foam, overall being lighter than water, so even if the ship were to fail its propulsion systems, it would simply sit high in the water. I like that concept, and I like the stated info that such a craft as the Skjold can maneuver in as little as three feet of water. Clearly, a quite usable amphibious transport if so desired/required, although I doubt they would've done that all the way up onto land.

Then again, this is also armchair nautical engineering. I have a degree in Fine Arts, not Engineering, lol.

I'll join that NS Draftroom soon. It looks promising.

It's real size Japan and Manchuria, and guerrilla warfare has been the plane from the begining. It will definitely be "fun" for the invading force.

Good thing my plans amount more to pillaging then occupation. The State Guard has several different plans drawn up in the event of Guerilla warfare, most of which involves depopulating entire regions of Saint Fabian with massive amounts of firepower.

Just looks at RT and the smile is pure evil...

Editing to add that I'm on MSN : thundersinger@yahoo.com.

If I'm deep in Photoshop it may take me a mjinute to answer, but give me a chance...

Yeah, orbital lasers, quite simply, cannot do anything to seriously affect targets in the atmosphere. The atmosphere disperses the beam too much. Lasers in atmosphere = yes (though because of diffusion from the atmosphere, range is limited, naturally). Lasers in space = yes. Lasers shooting from space to ground? Not happenin'.

Tanaara, regarding your orbital laser platform, I must protest if you haven't got any definitive statistics. Giving atmospheric diffusion and all, a focused laser weapons platform would need to be the size of an upscale condominium complex to provide sufficient power to hit a ground target with enough destructive force to do more than mar the paint - even then, I have my doubts. If you're going to deploy a superweapon, at least have a technical writeup.

Axis Nova based on this I have to completely Disagree

This quote here: from Space Weapons For Earth Wars
(http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_war_020515-1.html)

Additionally (http://science.howstuffworks.com/space-war2.htm)
Another laser, similar to the hydrogen fluoride system, is the deuterium fluoride laser system. Instead of using molecular hydrogen, deuterium is used to react with atomic fluoride. Because deuterium atoms have more mass than hydrogen atoms, this laser has a longer wavelength, about 3.5 microns, and can transmit better through the atmosphere. In 1980, TRW demonstrated a deuterium fluoride laser, called the Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser (MIRACL), that can produce more than one megawatt of power. This type of laser system was used in tests to shoot down a rocket at the White Sands Missile Range in 1996.[/quote[

and if you want to say that specifically lasers wont'd do it despite theese examples, I can always specify them as particle beam weapons.

Space Based Laser (http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/sbl.htm)
[quote]

RAND reviewed several distinct classes of weapons:

Directed-energy weapons, such as space lasers. They use millions of watts of power and large optics to deliver a speed-of-light knockout punch as a missile arcs over Earth. Depending on the wavelength of the energy beamed out and atmospheric conditions, an energy beam can destroy a target on Earth's surface;
Kinetic-energy weapons against missile targets. This hardware can ram headlong into a target in space or an object still within the upper reaches of Earth's atmosphere;
Space-based kinetic energy weapons that slam into targets on the ground, such as large ships, tall buildings, and fuel tanks. Sleek and meteoroid-like in speed, these weapons attack targets at steep, nearly vertical trajectories; and
Space-based conventional weapons capable of maneuvering to hit terrestrial targets. These can carry and dispense rather exotic packages of destruction, such as radio-frequency or high-power-microwave munitions.


So maybe for MT, but I have bgeen playing this as PMT, Axis, and I have RPed spaced based weapondry as taking out earth atmosphere targets in prior rps, I can provide you threads if you want - much as Bretton and his foot ball field large planes being accepted by others in RPs.

Yes, that article talks about a system intended for hitting ICBMs, which tend to go into space for part of their transit course. It's not going to be effective against aircraft or ground targets.

Just because something happened in a previous RP doesn't mean I'm going to accept it. Scientists can talk about "in theory" all they want, but the fact of the matter is, even with tremendous outputs, lasers diffuse rapidly in atmosphere. You're talking about shooting through hundreds of kilometers of atmosphere here.

I've actually put thought into some of the lasers I use; they operate primarily in the ultraviolet range which allows them to partially migitate the effects of atmospheric moisture and dust, and furthermore, are pumped by big, beefy fusion reactors. Even so, you don't see me operating space to surface lasers, or vice versa.

Let us assume for the sake of argument that Bretton's Ourobouros are flying at a height high enough for an antimissile laser on a satellite to target (unlikely as their service cieling, to my knowledge, is nowhere near that high). A gigantic aircraft such as that is far more durable than a missile, and has a very large area, which means that you would need to concentrate a beam for some time to deal damage-- assuming the aircraft did not take any evasive maneuvers.

But anyways, regardless of all this, you seem to have forgotten that me and Bretton are in constant contact IC at the moment, thus I intend to render the matter academic. Stand by.

For this space based laser to work it would need a lot of power, and therefore the system would have to be huge. The whole idea is very impractical, and why someone would make one is beyond my comprehension.

Directed-energy weapons, such as space lasers. They use millions of watts of power and large optics to deliver a speed-of-light knockout punch as a missile arcs over Earth. Depending on the wavelength of the energy beamed out and atmospheric conditions, an energy beam can destroy a target on Earth's surface


Thats with MT, with PMT, I am well able to figure that they can have solved the problem of something within atmosphere...My apologies if I don't know the wavelengths necessary to do so, I'm not a physicist...

St Fabian, want to look at a MT picture of a spasced based laser? Not hat big

LOL just follow that top link I gave, or this one (http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/Alphalas.jpg)

For this space based laser to work it would need a lot of power, and therefore the system would have to be huge. The whole idea is very impractical, and why someone would make one is beyond my comprehension.

This too. I examined the idea of a surface to surface laser at one point (involving reflecting a hugely powerful beam from a stationary installation off an orbital mirror), but later decided the idea was entirely impractical.

edit: Tanaara, PMT tech does not allow one to ignore the laws of physics. -.-

And then we shouldn't have flying football fields, or kilometer long battle ships or my also available O'Neil Isand Three space habitatas- oversized has never meant a damn thing on NS, nor stopped any NSer from building it.

And huge to generate enough power? No, necessarily on orbit, where weight and size don't mean a thing with the absence of gravity.

Thats with MT, with PMT, I am well able to figure that they can have solved the problem of something within atmosphere...My apologies if I don't know the wavelengths necessary to do so, I'm not a physicist...

You can always tell when they are starting to get scared they are going to loose, they start saying "you can't use that".

My recon fleet would be behind the Bretton fleet and most likely considered "on sight" if you will. My two War Fleets are coming in and fast, averaging around 50knots.

Dan, you can expect a response along the lines of "sure thing" later tonight when I get around to the IC post. Of course, your fleet unlike "any other" is going to be dwarfed by two of my ships, LOL!

I'm sure that is all for now. Shal, fell free to use anything I told you about last night.

And then we shouldn't have flying football fields, or kilometer long battle ships or my also available O'Neil Isand Three space habitatas- oversized has never meant a damn thing on NS, nor stopped any NSer from building it.

And huge to generate enough power? No, necessarily on orbit, where weight and size don't mean a thing with the absence of gravity.

There is gravity in orbit, that's how things stay in orbit, otherwise they would just float away. That would also be how things come falling back down, after being in orbit.

Coil Lasers - per the Laser Options for National Missile Defense - from the Air Command and Staff Collegte (http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/98-165.pdf) look every promising as of 1998...and what it takes to shot down a missile in flight is also talked about in that publication, so if it's really nescessary for your peace of mind I can use those...

But Axis Nova unless you have a degree in physics, don't pretend to be an authority on the subject, I certainly don't and will just go with what I can find on line extrapolated to PMT. It's not violating the laws of physics to take current research and go from there.

Who said anything about being afraid of losing when a fight hasn't even started yet, Imitora? I'm just pointing out the technical issues with what Taanara wants. He's free to go post on the Draftroom about it. ;p

Not threw reading it, but I went to the 'Space Based Laser' section and immediatly saw this(bolded emphasis added):

"As described in Appendix A, the HF laser produced by the SBL fires at a wavelength of 2.7 microns, which cannot penetrate the atmosphere."

It also says immediatly after that, a more powerful version of the HF laser will penetrate the atmosphere, but it might do nothing more then damage the human eye.

Now, I dont know if this is the type of laser your using, but I'll keep reading.

EDIT: Found the 'Coil' laser in Appendix A. It has only a slightly lower wavelength then the 'HF Overtone' laser(1.32 to 1.35 microns respectively). I do not pretend to know what a 'micron' is, but I am guessing it has to do with atmospheric penetration.

Coil Lasers - per the Laser Options for National Missile Defense - from the Air Command and Staff Collegte (http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/98-165.pdf) look every promising as of 1998...and what it takes to shot down a missile in flight is also talked about in that publication, so if it's really nescessary for your peace of mind I can use those...

But Axis Nova unless you have a degree in physics, don't pretend to be an authority on the subject, I certainly don't and will just go with what I can find on line extrapolated to PMT. It's not violating the laws of physics to take current research and go from there.

LOL....I mean LOL...

Really....he hasn't violated anything but the bugger your talking about eats up the volume space of a Airbus the really big two decker ones.

Oh, and you can't see a C.O.I.L laser system...non-visible spectrum

Posted. Sigh, looks like it's to be war after all. Tanaara, note that I'm specifically targeting satellites and not space stations (though if the lasers are on space stations rather than satellites, then those stations will be targeted).

The bloom from a high powered laser passing through the atmosphere, as well as the ionized path, IS visible, however.

edit: gah time warp

Not threw reading it, but I went to the 'Space Based Laser' section and immediatly saw this(bolded emphasis added):

"As described in Appendix A, the HF laser produced by the SBL fires at a wavelength of 2.7 microns, which cannot penetrate the atmosphere."

It also says immediatly after that, a more powerful version of the HF laser will penetrate the atmosphere, but it might do nothing more then damage the human eye.

Now, I dont know if this is the type of laser your using, but I'll keep reading.

EDIT: Found the 'Coil' laser in Appendix A. It has only a slightly lower wavelength then the 'HF Overtone' laser(1.32 to 1.35 microns respectively). I do not pretend to know what a 'micron' is, but I am guessing it has to do with atmospheric penetration.

Has to do with wavelength...

The bloom from a high powered laser passing through the atmosphere, as well as the ionized path, IS visible, however.

edit: gah time warp

The bloom???? Do tell...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blooming_%28laser%29#Blooming

Ah really your not going to be sending pulses that energy dense since air might begin to ionize, but most of your optics are going to be shattering at those levels anyway since they tend to have a lower quantum efficeny than air does....(which means more energy is transfered to heat...or by the time your thermally smacking all the electrons off of nitrogen molecules your focusing optics are suffering from sudden temperature shock gradiants.)

I thought you were refering to a thermal bloom, which would occur with high absorption rates of the laser light, but that would be less detectable visually than thermally.

Axis Nova - my space stastiosn do have weapons but no they have not fired - if you are going after obvious weapons - then yes it is the satellites and they will be shooting back so to speak.

TG coming your way AN

Romandeos has officially trown her lot in with Tanaara and St. Fabian. Admiral Hoffman has declared an attack on Tanaaran or/and St. Fabianese military and civilian assets will be regarded as a strike on Romandeos and will bring the apropriate response.

FYI, he is presently acting on his own initiative in the way he believes the High Command would want.

You can always tell when they are starting to get scared they are going to loose, they start saying "you can't use that".

My recon fleet would be behind the Bretton fleet and most likely considered "on sight" if you will. My two War Fleets are coming in and fast, averaging around 50knots.

Dan, you can expect a response along the lines of "sure thing" later tonight when I get around to the IC post. Of course, your fleet unlike "any other" is going to be dwarfed by two of my ships, LOL!

I'm sure that is all for now. Shal, fell free to use anything I told you about last night.

LOL Imi, I'd imagine you'd dwarf my size easily. Doesn't make my any less dangerous however to those we're fighting against.

I take offense to the assumption that we're getting "scared" - things that don't make sense are irrelevant to shows of force and what have you. Anyway, a few quick crunches on NSTracker shows my defense sector outspends all of the "pro-Fabian" sides (a term I continue to disagree with) combined, so if you guys really want to make "total war" of this idiocy, I've got the staying power for it.

Anyway, Imi, what ships of mine are you targeting? I haven't got a fleet in the area...

Oh, I figured I'd get it officially up here what I've got in play:

2 supercarriers Albatross, Rising Sun
Each hold 40 aircraft, 10 choppers, and have standard weaponry/defense as seen on aircraft carriers. Hovercraft. Additionally, as stated ICly, they have arcane defense shields that you can basically work similar to a force field. They can be overwhelmed with enough firepower, so in this respect they are not invincible. I've RP'd with arcane stuff before, treating them much like physics, although I will claim I know nothing of physics.

5 Battleships Valiant, Poldora, Gorgorath, Amarth, Ohtar'ear
Each having standard weaponry/defense in addition to arcane defense shields. Hovercraft.

8 Cruisers (still working on the names, I'll edit this once I get them)
Each having standard weaponry/defense in addition to arcane defense shields. Hovercraft.

10 Submarines (same thing with the names here)
Each having standard weaponry/defense. No arcane defense shields. Nuclear propulsion.

Oh, I figured I'd get it officially up here what I've got in play:

2 supercarriers Albatross, Rising Sun
Each hold 40 aircraft, 10 choppers, and have standard weaponry/defense as seen on aircraft carriers. Hovercraft. Additionally, as stated ICly, they have arcane defense shields that you can basically work similar to a force field. They can be overwhelmed with enough firepower, so in this respect they are not invincible. I've RP'd with arcane stuff before, treating them much like physics, although I will claim I know nothing of physics.

5 Battleships Valiant, Poldora, Gorgorath, Amarth, Ohtar'ear
Each having standard weaponry/defense in addition to arcane defense shields. Hovercraft.

8 Cruisers (still working on the names, I'll edit this once I get them)
Each having standard weaponry/defense in addition to arcane defense shields. Hovercraft.

10 Submarines (same thing with the names here)
Each having standard weaponry/defense. No arcane defense shields. Nuclear propulsion.

"Arcane defense shields"? Oh, come on...

"Arcane defense shields"? Oh, come on...

I ain't changing on this. I've been doing mixed tech for a long time with no problems. I RP quite fairly, as you'll see.

Bretton, IIRC I spend 49% -you I think 54%, Imitora does 52%, and all of us combined? Ah, no you don't outspend all of us combined.

Tarlachia: Fantasy is fantasy, that's all there is to it.

Tanaara: Percentage doesn't matter - the totals are what's important. See here (http://nstracker.org/index.php?nation=bretton&nation2=tarlachia&nation3=tanaara&nation4=imitora&nation5=romandeos&nation6=Catawaba) for an example. I'll crosspost the important bits here from my own calculations, though feel free to check them if you're in doubt for any reason.


Bretton ------- $176.99 trillion --- @ J$1 = NS$1.81 = 320.35 trillion
Tarlachia ----- $80.94 trillion ---- @ E$1 = NS$1.24 = 100.36 trillion
Tanaara ------- $9.41 trillion ----- @ A$1 = NS$1.85 = 17.40 trillion
Imitora ------- $21.22 trillion ---- @ I$1 = NS$1.89 = 40.10 trillion
Romandeos ----- $6.72 trillion ----- @ S$1 = NS$0.45 = 3.02 trillion
Catawaba ------ $28.67 billion ----- @ G$1 = NS$0.78 = 0.226 trillion

edit: holy god timewarp

I take offense to the assumption that we're getting "scared" - things that don't make sense are irrelevant to shows of force and what have you. Anyway, a few quick crunches on NSTracker shows my defense sector outspends all of the "pro-Fabian" sides (a term I continue to disagree with) combined, so if you guys really want to make "total war" of this idiocy, I've got the staying power for it.

Anyway, Imi, what ships of mine are you targeting? I haven't got a fleet in the area...

Edited, and no, you don't out rank me at all. I stopped dealing with issues a good year and a half ago, and then some. They don't take into count actual RPd event. I would blow you away with half my military forces on stand down. You are going to loose.

Fine, you can be the pro fabian forces. Everyone against you is going to be the "Gonna make Red Tide and Bretton our Bitch" forces.

I ain't changing on this. I've been doing mixed tech for a long time with no problems. I RP quite fairly, as you'll see.

OOC: Will these 'Runes' withstand a missile with a 560 kilogram(1,232 pound) armor piercing warhead dropping from 100,000 feet at sppeds a little over mach 4?

If yes, then I reccomend you remove them.

If no, I have no complaints.

Edited, and no, you don't out rank me at all. I stopped dealing with issues a good year and a half ago, and then some. They don't take into count actual RPd event. I would blow you away with half my military forces on stand down. You are going to loose.

OOC:...

Overconfidant much?

You do realise that this isnt about winning?

If you think it is, then I believe it would be best for all involved if you left.

OOC:...

Overconfidant much?

You do realise that this isnt about winning?

If you think it is, then I believe it would be best for all involved if you left.

If it isn't about winning, then why fight a war?

Imitora, does that mean you do not use the established economic calculators like the rest of II does? If that's the case, consider yourself ignored - I don't RP with people who don't follow proper standards and practices.

To have fun.

To have fun.

And I have fun winning. Therefore, using your own logic, it is about winning.

Edited, and no, you don't out rank me at all. I stopped dealing with issues a good year and a half ago, and then some. They don't take into count actual RPd event. I would blow you away with half my military forces on stand down. You are going to loose.

Fine, you can be the pro fabian forces. Everyone against you is going to be the "Gonna make Red Tide and Bretton our Bitch" forces.

You are impolite and rude and I don't wish to RP with you. Have an IGNORE cannon shot.

Guys, guys, let's keep calm... In the end, it's only a game.

Jaysus...

Imitora, does that mean you do not use the established economic calculators like the rest of II does? If that's the case, consider yourself ignored - I don't RP with people who don't follow proper standards and practices.

Does that mean I can't play...?

What is it with people. I swear, has the human race been so pussified they can't handle a bit of shit talking any more? Man thats a depressing thought. Ah well, to easy to win this fight anyways, rather have a challenge of player skill than a bunch of number wankers. I send my eighty kabillion super mach 19 warheads of d00m at all the forces trying to "Liberate" St Fabia. You all die, war over, logistics and writing skill be damned!

Imitoria, I am going to pretend your no longer involved in this RP and simply leave you to be enlightened with this:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416665

Imitora, does that mean you do not use the established economic calculators like the rest of II does? If that's the case, consider yourself ignored - I don't RP with people who don't follow proper standards and practices.

Nope, I prefer actual skill in story telling, not number crunching. God this place was so much better years back when we actually required skill beyond what a calculator said.

It sure sounds like I can't play either - and ya know I too though skill in stroy telling and such meant more than mere number crunching.

I am very tempted to just leave this thread all together. How ever there are some players in here that I feel deserve better.

Going away to think for a bit

Imitora, does that mean you do not use the established economic calculators like the rest of II does? If that's the case, consider yourself ignored - I don't RP with people who don't follow proper standards and practices.

I don't RP with calculators either. Guess that puts me out as well. I consider calculators a waste of time, b/c the way I see it, if you gotta use calculators, you're not mature enough to reasonably RP without your hand being held every step of the way.

And Imi's right. NS did used to be better back in the old days.

Adios.

... I am not sure on the calculator thing myself. I like to use it to establish some baselines, but I dont follow it to the letter.

I propose we wait a bit until St Fabian has some time to take all this in. This RP is, after all, supposed to be about him ;)

You are impolite and rude and I don't wish to RP with you. Have an IGNORE cannon shot.

Being impolite and rude are Not considered grounds for being Ignored.

Second, it has long been considered 'practice' to allow nations to Rp 'changes' in how their defense budget as part of their overall ecconomic stimulas, and consider 'secondary' income as well (such as stores)

I mean for crying out loud, the calculators don't work for my nation completely because I'm an overpowered State...so the application of Federal taxes to my ecconomy have to be taken into consideration.

And I disagree completely with the currency effect that you just used. :headbang:

Even though the dollar is less than the euro was four months ago, I don't have to spend more to buy an F-16 part then I did four months ago. Attempting to 'even' out purchasing power in terms of exports is one thing, in terms of internally constructed weapon systems is another.

... I am not sure on the calculator thing myself. I like to use it to establish some baselines, but I dont follow it to the letter.

Believe it or not, how you run your country off the boards does matter almost as much as how you run it on the boards. II isn't an RP for anyone to come by with a magic country of <x> trillion people with a fifty billion man army, it's using the country you've nurtured with issues and UN resolutions and what not as a playing force on the world stage. I've never nickel-and-dime'd someone down to the hundreds of thousands in a budget, but if you've got a 3-to-1 disparity between an opponent, that's a major difference. Lithuania does not go to war with Russia for a good reason.

Believe it or not, how you run your country off the boards does matter almost as much as how you run it on the boards. II isn't an RP for anyone to come by with a magic country of <x> trillion people with a fifty billion man army, it's using the country you've nurtured with issues and UN resolutions and what not as a playing force on the world stage. I've never nickel-and-dime'd someone down to the hundreds of thousands in a budget, but if you've got a 3-to-1 disparity between an opponent, that's a major difference. Lithuania does not go to war with Russia for a good reason.

It matters to you. but not to us. To us, the whole NS side that tells population and whatnot, that's just background information. The true information is the stuff we've been slowly RPing in development over the last few years. That's how WE RP. Don't like it? Too bad.

Being impolite and rude are Not considered grounds for being Ignored.


They are as far as I'm concerned.

edit: sweet lord why won't the timewarp end

It matters to you. but not to us. To us, the whole NS side that tells population and whatnot, that's just background information. The true information is the stuff we've been slowly RPing in development over the last few years. That's how WE RP. Don't like it? Too bad.

Lol, +1 bro. I love it. Using Bretton's method here...I have 10 trillion people living on a island slightly smaller than the US as a whole...and are obviously a mass of hysterical, leaderless, mongoloid mouth breathing, scruffy looking scoundrels because I haven't cared to answer an issue in about two years.

Who you calling scruffy looking?

Believe it or not, how you run your country off the boards does matter almost as much as how you run it on the boards. II isn't an RP for anyone to come by with a magic country of <x> trillion people with a fifty billion man army, it's using the country you've nurtured with issues and UN resolutions and what not as a playing force on the world stage. I've never nickel-and-dime'd someone down to the hundreds of thousands in a budget, but if you've got a 3-to-1 disparity between an opponent, that's a major difference. Lithuania does not go to war with Russia for a good reason.

First, you didn't exist when some of these items were debated. Nor were you in the discussions about the creation of the calculator that orginally included the dollar montary equivilance formula.

Second, deviation from the issue generated 'budget' has always been acceptable to some degree. It just has to be Rped. (Tax rate and economy have not be deviatable unless an extra super tax is applied for 'super' nations such as the FKC)

Imortia, Ilek-Vaad, Dyeli Beybi, Vrak, Melkor, Melci (The elf queen herself), Glorious Humanity, Iseus Christi, Knotoss and others of note have all 'deviated' at times far more than you want to allow.

It matters to you. but not to us. To us, the whole NS side that tells population and whatnot, that's just background information. The true information is the stuff we've been slowly RPing in development over the last few years. That's how WE RP. Don't like it? Too bad.

You'd be a minority in the II community if that's the case. As the 157th largest defense sector in NS (as of the last time the issue came up), I take exception to being told I can be made "a bitch" by another country using "half [its] defense forces on stand down". Economic calculators exist to stop exactly this type of schenanigans - the fact that Axis and I are now being accused of being "number wankers" simply reinforces the point.

First, you didn't exist when some of these items were debated. Nor were you in the discussions about the creation of the calculator that orginally included the dollar montary equivilance formula.

Second, deviation from the issue generated 'budget' has always been acceptable to some degree. It just has to be Rped. (Tax rate and economy have not be deviatable unless an extra super tax is applied for 'super' nations such as the FKC)

Imortia, Ilek-Vaad, Dyeli Beybi, Vrak, Melkor, Melci (The elf queen herself), Glorious Humanity, Iseus Christi, Knotoss and others of note have all 'deviated' at times far more than you want to allow.

Is this to implicate that since I was not "in the discussions" regarding the formulae that calculate the economic figures, I have any less of a right to use them? I wasn't aware such an elite clique existed in the first place, much less that it had a monopoly on the interpretation of calculatory figures. But eh, learn something new every day.

Anyway, I also chuckled at the idea of being accused of not being able to RP well from someone who was under the impression I had (A) a fleet in the area, and (B) it was between them and St. Fabian. I might have goofed the deployment of forces with the United Duchies player, but I certainly didn't accuse them of being a bad RP'er at the same time. It's downright hypocritical to suggest that people such as Axis Nova or myself who follow established convention in the use of economic calculators as a general indicator of things are somehow the reason why "II isn't any good" today.

By the way, regarding the 10 trillion population issue (how you're a thousand times bigger than I am I'm not sure), running out of living space is a central motivation behind a lot of the RPs I do. Feel free to examine my post history in II, some of them are pretty good.

Lol, +1 bro. I love it. Using Bretton's method here...I have 10 trillion people living on a island slightly smaller than the US as a whole...and are obviously a mass of hysterical, leaderless, mongoloid mouth breathing, scruffy looking scoundrels because I haven't cared to answer an issue in about two years.

Who you calling scruffy looking?

Haha, Star Wars...

Oh wait, see, we can't reference them either. They don't go by the numbers...

You'd be a minority in the II community if that's the case. As the 157th largest defense sector in NS (as of the last time the issue came up), I take exception to being told I can be made "a bitch" by another country using "half [its] defense forces on stand down". Economic calculators exist to stop exactly this type of schenanigans - the fact that Axis and I are now being accused of being "number wankers" simply reinforces the point.



Is this to implicate that since I was not "in the discussions" regarding the formulae that calculate the economic figures, I have any less of a right to use them? I wasn't aware such an elite clique existed in the first place, much less that it had a monopoly on the interpretation of calculatory figures. But eh, learn something new every day.

Anyway, I also chuckled at the idea of being accused of not being able to RP well from someone who was under the impression I had (A) a fleet in the area, and (B) it was between them and St. Fabian. I might have goofed the deployment of forces with the United Duchies player, but I certainly didn't accuse them of being a bad RP'er at the same time. It's downright hypocritical to suggest that people such as Axis Nova or myself who follow established convention in the use of economic calculators as a general indicator of things are somehow the reason why "II isn't any good" today.

By the way, regarding the 10 trillion population issue (how you're a thousand times bigger than I am I'm not sure), running out of living space is a central motivation behind a lot of the RPs I do. Feel free to examine my post history in II, some of them are pretty good.

Clearly, sarcasm is not in your suit...

edit: oh god it never ends

I take that as a compliment



Because I read somewhere that you landed a HUGE FRIGGEN BOAT PLANE(guy)[/dafoe] and figured you had a fleet. I checked the new posts once or twice a day, made mental notes, and stored them with the other five RPs I'm involved in.



I have. They were marginal, at best.

Marginal at best? You're just being bitter now...

At any rate, it would seem this RP is dead as the central players of the conflict are now calling each other on technical grounds. In my experience that's usually the end of things. Oh well - hopefully St. Fabian will be able to get back to having a government the way he wants it, which was more or less what I was shooting for in the first place. Guess it's not a total loss...

You'd be a minority in the II community if that's the case.
I take that as a compliment

Anyway, I also chuckled at the idea of being accused of not being able to RP well from someone who was under the impression I had (A) a fleet in the area, and (B) it was between them and St. Fabian.

Because I read somewhere that you landed a HUGE FRIGGEN BOAT PLANE(guy)[/dafoe] and figured you had a fleet. I checked the new posts once or twice a day, made mental notes, and stored them with the other five RPs I'm involved in.

Feel free to examine my post history in II, some of them are pretty good.

I have. They were marginal, at best.

Let's tryto avoid things descending in to a flame-fest, people.

Bretton, there is something to be said for stats, but they are not king in NS RP, and mostly, if you ask me, it's best to use them marginally and go mostly on development in RP threads. I do that, as do many others. However, it is also true there have to be some exceptions to this, such as populace levels.

Gentlemen, plaese lets calm down a little. It serves none of us any good to be gnawing on each other.

Bretton has every right to RP the way he wants to

JUST as we have every right to RP differrently.

Since we can not come to an equitable notion between us, I think that since Imitora and Tarlachia responded as my allies they drop out and we all calm down.

Do I like the fact that a bunch of '03 900 pound number wank gorillas are going to beat the shit out of some newer nations - hell NO

- it's no fun since we have no chance of even matching them much less winning against them, but thats what they plotted and planned for.

So Northern Rangeria, Romandeos, Catawaba, A&H -you 've done marvelously, and I really respect the hell outta you. You all have made this fun, and are the reason I'm staying in to get crushed by the numbers, rather than any skill at roleplaying

A & H -thank you for your post here on the sort of gaming I've been doing - I don't do technical stuff, or massive rolls of ships, but I develope things in and through roleplay and well how the hell much does a PMT item cost - or an FT item cost ? I've alway believed that you just kinda had to guess.

Gentlemen, plese lets calm down a little. It serves none of us any good to be gnawing on each other.

Bretton has every right to rp the way he wants to

JUST as we have every right to RP differrently.

Since we can not come to an equitable notion between us, I think that since Imitora and Tarlachia responded as my allies they drop out and wwe all calm down.

Do I like the fact that a bunch of '03 900 pound number wank gorillas are going to beat the shit out of some newer nations - hell NO

- it's no fun since we have no chance of even matching them much less winning against them, but thats what they plotted and planned for.

So Northern Rangeria, Romandeos, Catawaba, A&H -you 've done marvelously, and I really respect the hell outta you. You all have made this fun, and are the reason I'm staying in to get crushed by the numbers, rather than any skill at roleplaying

A & H -thank you for your post here on the sort of gaming I've been doing - I don't do technical stuff, or massive rolls of ships, but I develope things in and through roleplay and well how the hell much does a PMT item cost - or an FT item cost ? I've alway believed that you just kinda had to guess.

Agreed. I enjoyed RPing with y'all as well. I would also remain in the thread, but I have a bit of foresight that if I were to even attempt to claim some defense using technology that technically doesn't exist, then I'm just gonna get whined at. So, I'm doing y'all a favor, unless you'd like to overlook such disparities and just simply roll along with it. I told you I'd RP fairly, as Tanaara is now stating, so if you'll overlook the obvious conflicting issues regarding the possible existence of such technology, I'll rejoin.

I was enjoying this thread, and I'm willing to give it a second try, but then again, if I keep getting flak, then I don't want to bother with it any more.

EDIT: Oh and drop the calculator emphasis on me. I don't use them, and won't.

^$^(@#&%(^ timewarp

Back at you, guys. You're good, and you're also sociable, which is always a refreshing thing. If most of you will stay on, then I'll stay the course even if it means I am defeated.

Northern Rangeria, Romandeos, Catawaba, A&H -you 've done marvelously, and I really respect the hell outta you.

+1. Anytime ya'll want to do any RPs or anything, just give me a holler, I'd love to do something respectable with you guys!

Indeed Tan. As someone in transition between the technical and literary styles (preferring the literary honestly, even if I keep the numbers around to be provided on request such as by RedTide ;) ) I can say that letting this go out of hand is not fair to anyone. Least of all, naturally, St. Fabian; he's been doing quite well actually and I feel we should reward him OOC whatever gets done IC.

My people are close to mission-complete initially, so now we're just waiting and hoping that Etoilean diplomatic efforts can succeed if perhaps with a bit more room for the Brettonian point of view. Hence, we're still in this ICly, for sure. For those who keep on trucking I'm going to as well.

I'm in with a cruiser, and a taskforce on standby. Coalition leaning towards Neutral.

Let's tryto avoid things descending in to a flame-fest, people.

Bretton, there is something to be said for stats, but they are not king in NS RP, and mostly, if you ask me, it's best to use them marginally and go mostly on development in RP threads. I do that, as do many others. However, there have to be some exceptions to this, such as populace levels.

Well that much is obvious - the numbers are only as important as how you use them. I've dealt with "I launch 500,000 B-52s at his capital" before against people who could, easily, fund that sort of venture - not surprisingly, that tactic didn't work very well. You ever RP'd with Kraven Corporation before? He's a lot of fun but his strategy and tactical provisions stink. Even with a gynormous army of evil cyborgs they're not very useful when you haven't got the proper strategy and RP methodology to use them effectively.

On the other hand, between two people with technically devised armies and units and what not who are engaging in a serious RP method, you can't just toss the statistics out the window because they don't synch up with a few RP posts you've made. If you've got a terribly powerful economy, a large government and it spends half its ridiculous annual budget on the military, that's pretty damn significant.


EDIT: Oh and drop the calculator emphasis on me. I don't use them, and won't.

"This is the size of my army and I have this many people because I said so" does not fly with me. This is Nation States first and foremost - if you're not going to RP the country you're actually playing, why bother? I'm sure SomethingAwful.com has a forum for something like that.

Indeed Tan. As someone in transition between the technical and literary styles (preferring the literary honestly, even if I keep the numbers around to be provided on request such as by RedTide ;) ) I can say that letting this go out of hand is not fair to anyone. Least of all, naturally, St. Fabian; he's been doing quite well actually and I feel we should reward him OOC whatever gets done IC.

My people are close to mission-complete initially, so now we're just waiting and hoping that Etoilean diplomatic efforts can succeed if perhaps with a bit more room for the Brettonian point of view. Hence, we're still in this ICly, for sure. For those who keep on trucking I'm going to as well.

QFT. Indeed, St. Fabian, you've done well for your part. You've managed to yank from the NS 'verse a few rather large nations (going solely by population count here) into a thread you've started. That's better than most threads started by virgin nations I've ever seen.

"This is the size of my army and I have this many people because I said so" does not fly with me. This is Nation States first and foremost - if you're not going to RP the country you're actually playing, why bother? I'm sure SomethingAwful.com has a forum for something like that.[/size]

Once again, I am RPing my nation as I see fit. So are you. Good for you. Don't like how I do it? Well, I don't honestly care. So far it seems you're the only one having issues with the way I RP. Everyone else doesn't seem to have a problem with it...

I rigidly observe the population listed on my nation page, but apart from how large it says my populace is, I mostly ignore it and leave everything else to a lot of RP development.

Ah, sorry I forgot to mention you Wagdog - which I shouldn't have as your name always makes me chuckle.

St Fabian, for a newcomer, has done well- he is visibily improving and as a old GM that is all I can ask.

Once again, I am RPing my nation as I see fit. So are you. Good for you. Don't like how I do it? Well, I don't honestly care. So far it seems you're the only one having issues with the way I RP. Everyone else doesn't seem to have a problem with it...

Have you even bothered to read the stickies?

Have you even bothered to read the stickies?

Yeah, actually, I sort of helped to develop some of those stickies, although I'm not the author of any of them.

I'm referring to stickies in the NS forum, not II. I've only recently been snooping around II simply b/c I wanted more decent RPs to engage in. Doesn't mean I care still if the calculators matter to me or not. I RP them fairly in response to whatever. That's all that matters to me. If someone has an issue with how I reacted, I'll be glad to discuss it and correct it to a more acceptable manner.

But the fact remains. It is of my opinion that calculators don't mean jack shit.

You'd be a minority in the II community if that's the case. As the 157th largest defense sector in NS (as of the last time the issue came up), I take exception to being told I can be made "a bitch" by another country using "half [its] defense forces on stand down". Economic calculators exist to stop exactly this type of schenanigans - the fact that Axis and I are now being accused of being "number wankers" simply reinforces the point.



Is this to implicate that since I was not "in the discussions" regarding the formulae that calculate the economic figures, I have any less of a right to use them? I wasn't aware such an elite clique existed in the first place, much less that it had a monopoly on the interpretation of calculatory figures. But eh, learn something new every day.

Anyway, I also chuckled at the idea of being accused of not being able to RP well from someone who was under the impression I had (A) a fleet in the area, and (B) it was between them and St. Fabian. I might have goofed the deployment of forces with the United Duchies player, but I certainly didn't accuse them of being a bad RP'er at the same time. It's downright hypocritical to suggest that people such as Axis Nova or myself who follow established convention in the use of economic calculators as a general indicator of things are somehow the reason why "II isn't any good" today.

By the way, regarding the 10 trillion population issue (how you're a thousand times bigger than I am I'm not sure), running out of living space is a central motivation behind a lot of the RPs I do. Feel free to examine my post history in II, some of them are pretty good.

No, What I am saying is that you don't have the depth of memory that Imortia or I have in terms of this issue. Specifically the entire calculator that you based it on was an upgrade based on the orginal thirdgeek calculator. And that some of the features you are using as the basis of your argument, specifically the monatary exchange rate, have never been on that solid a foundation.

Ignoring the fact that your montary exchange rate is based only on a regional ecconomic average, or the debate about soley focusing on income tax versus VAT tax and tarrifs or even land values, but your applying them far more rigerously then they were intented, designed, or generally accepted by the community when they were created.

When did I ever assume you have a fleet in the area?

My entire point is that you and Axis Nova are applying a convention far more rigously and detrimental to Rp consequences than is generally accepted.

90% of the nations of NS have followed generally the calculators the way you have presented. However, it has always been accepted that the Rping deviation from the 'NS calculator' mod has always been acceptable as Rp has always superceded the NS system since there was no feedback control for mass migrations, or mass casualties, or even the consequences of a war, government overthrow, etc.

For example until my 'death' my population was always 100 to 200 million high on my main page because of a rather bad plauge that hit me early on, and the consquences of the UTP-Melkor war.

Do I have to remind you of bison, Fik, or 'of acel' there Imortia?

*Waves at those leaving*
Really I consider you all excellent Rpers. Even Bretton and Axis Nova do fairly well. I just disagree with their 'attachement' to the calculators versus the Rp component. Of course maybe you just have to have been in so many wars that fell appart because of 'Godmod' calling.

Anyway, I will continue on my path to remove my four poor civilians.

Have you even bothered to read the stickies?

Have you even to bother looking back to what II and NS as a whole was like back in '03? Before Jolt, before these stupid ass calculators, back when it was all done on an honor system? Back when Melkor and Mele were the only big dogs on the lot...before AMF went ape shit (much love)? Back when wars weren't fought based on economy calculators, but on RP skill alone?

Wars still aren't fought on numbers or tech alone that's ridiculous. I could have a 5 million man nation and shitty tech and still beat a lot of larger nations because I could write better and have better strategy. Still, calculators and such came into effect designed to stop wanking and other such things, which appears to have occurred here with "magic shields" [WTF?] and etc.

I was going to make a rebuttal but this basically sums it up about right. A 1 billion nation with no strategy can and has been beaten by a 300 million who knows what he's doing - being able to afford ten thousand M1A1s isn't as important as knowing how to use them.

Have you even to bother looking back to what II and NS as a whole was like back in '03? Before Jolt, before these stupid ass calculators, back when it was all done on an honor system? Back when Melkor and Mele were the only big dogs on the lot...before AMF went ape shit (much love)? Back when wars weren't fought based on economy calculators, but on RP skill alone?

Again Imitora, may I remind you of...well Fik wasn't all that bad but bison? of acel, the constant problem of it blasted crashing every thirty seconds. Garrison running around beleiving he was a god?

Or how about the old rule that when you lost a war you had to hand over your nation and password to the winner Hmm?

Oh and the calculators date back all the way to pre-jolt too. Hell I remember debating Imperial Navy about them. :p

Have you even to bother looking back to what II and NS as a whole was like back in '03? Before Jolt, before these stupid ass calculators, back when it was all done on an honor system? Back when Melkor and Mele were the only big dogs on the lot...before AMF went ape shit (much love)? Back when wars weren't fought based on economy calculators, but on RP skill alone?

Wars still aren't fought on numbers or tech alone that's ridiculous. I could have a 5 million man nation and shitty tech and still beat a lot of larger nations because I could write better and have better strategy. Still, calculators and such came into effect designed to stop wanking and other such things, which appears to have occurred here with "magic shields" [WTF?] and etc.

Wars still aren't fought on numbers or tech alone that's ridiculous. I could have a 5 million man nation and shitty tech and still beat a lot of larger nations because I could write better and have better strategy. Still, calculators and such came into effect designed to stop wanking and other such things, which appears to have occurred here with "magic shields" [WTF?] and etc.

Really, the orginal calculator was just a set of GDP based on your economic scale. Everything after that was just a 'redo' and improvement. I remember when you could 'adjust' even your tax rate since any calculator had to be your own damn excel spreadsheet

Do I have to remind you of bison, Fik, or 'of acel' there Imitora?


Not so much Fik, he may have been on my first hiatus. Though I do remember Bison and his eight reincarnated puppets...And the Resi Corp. Where the hell did thinking of him come from?

Really, the orginal calculator was just a set of GDP based on your economic scale. Everything after that was just a 'redo' and improvement. I remember when you could 'adjust' even your tax rate since any calculator had to be your own damn excel spreadsheet

Yup. Somewhere on my computer I still have it. Back when damned near every variable was adjustable based on how you RPd, but it was an accepted limit to have no more than 5% of your nation in the armed forces at any given time, and even then it was what...2% had to be considered logistics?

Really, the orginal calculator was just a set of GDP based on your economic scale. Everything after that was just a 'redo' and improvement. I remember when you could 'adjust' even your tax rate since any calculator had to be your own damn excel spreadsheet

Well you should be able to adjust your tax rate. I don't RP mine at 100%, that would make me a commie. But you have to use calculators as a basic guide or else you see people going "LOL 100 TRILLION DEFENSE BUDGET"

Yup. Somewhere on my computer I still have it. Back when damned near every variable was adjustable based on how you RPd, but it was an accepted limit to have no more than 5% of your nation in the armed forces at any given time, and even then it was what...2% had to be considered logistics?

I never followed that rule, 1% was active military forces the remainging 90% were milita similar to switzerland which I couldn't invade anyone with but damn well give you a massive headache if you invaded me.

As for Resi, likely because Me Resi and Eris seemd to be Rping together a great deal.

And Melkor wacking Resi was one of his last major acts as a regular player on NS...

Amid all of this I need to ask a question of Red Tide - are your space aimed missile targeting non military national assets?

I seriously need an answer to this, your wording space installations is not specific. It will in the end determine much of my response.

Again Imitora, may I remind you of...well Fik wasn't all that bad but bison? of acel, the constant problem of it blasted crashing every thirty seconds. Garrison running around beleiving he was a god?

Or how about the old rule that when you lost a war you had to hand over your nation and password to the winner Hmm?

Oh and the calculators date back all the way to pre-jolt too. Hell I remember debating Imperial Navy about them. :p

Back when you would be lucky to get one post up a week, lol. I remember Imperial Navy...OH, and the Ant Colony guy, he was nuts man...scared the shit outa me. He was the first person I RPd with on here.

Don't mind us fogies, truthfully I tended to Rp on Nationstates a good deal more than II back in the day.

Mainly because so many of the threads wound up in ignore cannon gunplay over here...

I never followed that rule, 1% was active military forces the remainging 90% were milita similar to switzerland which I couldn't invade anyone with but damn well give you a massive headache if you invaded me.

As for Resi, likely because Me Resi and Eris seemd to be Rping together a great deal.

And Melkor wacking Resi was one of his last major acts as a regular player on NS...

Same with me. I was at a full 2%, but I was at full conscription of all males 18 with a minimum four year service term, so everyone over the age of 25, even if not in the military, could still fight if an invasion landed. And Sniper Country...man, he took down an Apache with a 12ga.

And that massive fall out over auctioning off nations!

Well you should be able to adjust your tax rate. I don't RP mine at 100%, that would make me a commie. But you have to use calculators as a basic guide or else you see people going "LOL 100 TRILLION DEFENSE BUDGET"
Indeed, though as always there's the partisanship over which calcs are 'accurate' or w/e; which is the old red herring of course. Personally, I just divide my tax rate by the conversion rate (naturally only works for economies with strong currencies according to the figures) and leave GDP where it is; thus shrinking my budget to what at a glance one would think anyway if they forgot to apply the exchange rate somehow and mistook my currency symbol for dollars. Leaves me with high taxes IC (50-60% average IIRC depending on currency strength at any time), but still within the bounds of a market economy with heavy welfare supports; caveat lector as always.

But anyway, I'm still around and ready to get posting again as soon as I know whether ppl are going to be attending the Gorgon emergency conference or w/e. Fluid-time, ftw there; rest assured Alcona your civvies will be RPed as appropriately safe unless someone in the coalition takes my flick of the cape to show the sheath under it awry.:p

Same with me. I was at a full 2%, but I was at full conscription of all males 18 with a minimum four year service term, so everyone over the age of 25, even if not in the military, could still fight if an invasion landed. And Sniper Country...man, he took down an Apache with a 12ga.

And that massive fall out over auctioning off nations!

Hey! I used to offer 'one fluffy white seal' for a good number of those brand new, 5 million population nations going for billions.

Someone sold Parthanon and then the whole thing went out of control from there.

So going back and reading how this argument started, I'm going to have to agree with Bretton. I mean, hovercraft battleships with force fields? wtf? You can't do that in NS anymore. Not if you want to play MT or even PMT. This stuff might have been fine back in the day, but this is about as bad as techwank comes man. Tech doesn't mix. Period.

I know it seems impossible to imagine, but then again, airplanes, for all the weight they are, are not supposed to fly. Bumblebees are not supposed to fly.

But they do.

Can I beat you with the basic principles of powered flight?

So going back and reading how this argument started, I'm going to have to agree with Bretton. I mean, hovercraft battleships with force fields? wtf? You can't do that in NS anymore. Not if you want to play MT or even PMT. This stuff might have been fine back in the day, but this is about as bad as techwank comes man. Tech doesn't mix. Period.

That was because some people didn't know how to fairly translate the values of such technology to match others in a reasonable manner. It is possible to mix the tech and RP with them accordingly and fairly. It's just that some people don't give a shit and instead decide to say their stuff is superior at all times. THAT is where it went wrong.

That is all I'm gonna say on this. I'm not gonna keep repeating myself until I'm blue in the face simply because you didn't read what I wrote earlier.

Kampfers, I have seen the tech mix time and again just fine - those who mix it have to play honestly - and while I agrree that I have seen it misused, I have also seen it properly used.

I also want to say as some one who has RPed for 30 years both pnp/tabletop - GM and player- and on line for 8 - Tarl has always played his blend of tech and arcana well and very fairly and is one of the better RPers that I know

Wagdog, is this in a seperate thread? because yes Mercy & David will attend

I am also going to trey to respond to Red Tide though I feel like it is just a loss cause, since with number only wank none of us stand a chance, or so I feel, since good role play apparently doesn't count.

This is reasonable?

Oh, and where is this "Draftroom"?

IN THE HALLS OF YOUR MOST HORRIFIC AND STRANGELY AROUSING NIGHTMARES.

IN THE HALLS OF YOUR MOST HORRIFIC AND STRANGELY AROUSING NIGHTMARES.

Oh I'd hardly say that. It was informative as to realism, and how to relate what I do to it. It was also interesting to see the stuff other people use. Nothing really to do with calculators, as far as I saw for the few minutes I spent browsing it.

EDIT: And I saw your post before you edited it to include "and strangely arousing" ;)

Since you don't seem to understand, let me break it down for you...

Hovercraft function by compressing air surrounding a ship and forcing it downward beneath it, effectively lifting it from the surface. While it wouldn't be as high off the surface while on the water due to the nature of water, it would nevertheless hover.

*facepalms* DOES NOT WORK... Ever taken a toy "hovercraft" and tried to run it on water and watched it sink? The air that is supposedly raising teh ship breaks the cohesion of the water, forces it aside, and the ship slowly sinks into the ocean. As soon as the air passes the water, it falls back over into the void it had vacated, effectively swamping the ship. Congrats, you built a self sinking ship. Sure, you can argue, there are hovercrafts in real life. Then again, these hovercraft don't displace tens of thousands of pounds. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY you can pump out enough air to get that ship to stay afloat, which is the same problem I had as a kid with my own hovercraft.

All in all, just take it as a slight stretch of the imagination.

The name of this game isn't "fun and games in fairy land". If you want to strech realism, take it to FT. Oh wait, even in FT the laws of physics still apply. So your hoverships are out of luck.

I know it seems impossible to imagine, but then again, airplanes, for all the weight they are, are not supposed to fly.

What Velkya said.

With that in mind, now just imagine the next step up from there. Capability to handle the tenacity of the ocean when land is no longer in sight.

Feasible, perhaps, not completely sure. You're still missing the point however. THE SHIP WEIGHS TOO MUCH! It won't work... ahh mah brain is fried!

That there is effectively where Tarlachian hovercraft technology resides. It just takes a bit of stretched imagination

You don't know who your RPing with then. This is II. This is a NS Draftroom member. We settle for nothing less than at least being close to reality. This, however, is not.

I won't say I know anything about hovercraft, but I do have a good enough idea of them to use them somewhat realistically.

If you have no knowledge, WHY ARE YOU USING THEM? And how do you know how to?

In the article about that Skjold, they talk about the twin hulls being made of a composite material and foam

HULLS =/= HOVERCRAFT

and Force Fields are impossible in MT/PMT

Assuming you are not saying they are MT/PMT

Why this is Godmoding: This is probably where godmoding gets its name (from God Mode in Doom, where you were invincible after typing IDDQD). Naturally, if nobody ever takes a hit, the fight degenerates into "I HIT YOU!" "NO YOU DIDN'T!", etc. Remember now, roleplaying isn’t about winning or losing, it’s about telling a story. A nation who is willing to accept defeat gains a lot of respect from others, in turn. Refusing to lose could permanently damage your reputation, making not too many people not want to RP with you.

There is no device known or yet to be invented which is perfect. There is no perfect stealth, there is no perfect radar, there is no perfect acoustical protection, there is nothing which cannot be defeated.

Therefore you cannot tell someone what their results are in trying to find you! You can tell them how your system works, but you can't off and say "you can't see me nyah!".

abusing higher tech for arbitary advantage is Godmoding. For example, using FTL cold fusion-powered spaceships with ultrashields against a modern nation would be godmoding if the modern nation did not agree to their existence beforehand; in other words, you can't force a higher tech level on another player.

Required reading for II (please check it out): http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=367578

By the powers vested in me, I hereby declare your argument complete and utter
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w107/imdmill/lulz/lulz.png

Seriously, y'all, I go off to my SCUBA course and things get launched to hell in a faster than light handbasket.

I am maybe new here, but I ain't new to RPing. I've done the funkiest mixes of technologies from SW/ST/Magic/Deus Ex/DBZ, if you can think of it I've worked it in. I regularly post a Force-sensitive Mandalorian/Zeltron halfbreed scoundrel on a DBZ forum and make it work. I can't go toe to toe physically, but I've got enough mental powers and plain deviousness to generally hold my own against the 'wankiest' fighting styles of DBZ, at least in my opinion.

I have enjoyed RPing here in this thread. It's really given me a chance to get into NS and II. I've restricted myself to my woefully outclassed navy, because that's what I established and that's the country I want to play.

Now...did we really, really need orbital space weapons brought into this, Tanaara? Yeah, sure Bretton was entering the exclusion zone. Naughty Brettonians to be sure, but you've got an aircraft carrier with supersonic interceptors, I suppose? Me, I would have used those. If I'd had orbital lasers, they sure wouldn't be thrown away on warning shots. A couple of air superiority fighters painting the Brettonian airwing with targeting radar says the same thing accompanied by polite urges to desist all actions.

You'll have to pardon me, but I do not recall those orbital lasers being mentioned in previous posts. I know that an orbiting platform not in geosynchroneous orbit could concievable get any where it needed to be fairly quickly. However, if they were not mentioned, it's sotra like Eureka's brother summoning a teleporting force of Seabees fitted with flux capacitors to improve Fabian infrastructure.

In my experience in blending technologies and magic together, it must be established to the satisfaction of all parties before hand. My friends and I and our melting pot universe magic and the Force were analogous. We judged that a Force shield would take a bit of damage depending on the size, usually proportional. We thought that such a shield could bare one or two killing blows before it was exhausted and had to be reinforced. Which is why mystical shields were usually used to situationally and combined with good ol'fashioned evasion. Also, we figured that this magic should require a good bit of energy to keep deployed. A quick burst would shield those few killing blows and then fail, additional effort could reinforce it. But to say, prevent a stone temple from falling on you would require all your effort, and you'd probably pass out. An mystical shield over a battleship? The drain of casting and the blowback when that thing gets hit should be punishing on a caster. So what I'm getting at is that this magical shield shouldn't, fairly, protect you from all weapons except those from your allies. If a RT CAM-4 can sink a battleship in two hits, your shield should take two to four before it fails. Most shielding when created for games usually works in a proportion that the shield takes about two times as much as the hull or body can.

I'm trying to be diplomatic here, people. Can't we all just get along?

Kampfers, I have seen the tech mix time and again just fine - those who mix it have to play honestly - and while I agrree that I have seen it misused, I have also seen it properly used.

I also want to say as some one who has RPed for 30 years both pnp/tabletop - GM and player- and on line for 8 - Tarl has always played his blend of tech and arcana well and very fairly and is one of the better RPers that I know

Wagdog, is this in a seperate thread? because yes Mercy & David will attend

I am also going to trey to respond to Red Tide though I feel like it is just a loss cause, since with number only wank none of us stand a chance, or so I feel, since good role play apparently doesn't count.
Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13424103&postcount=141) is where the talks I'm referring to occur, although ICly I'm not aware of the specific communication. We do know that Etoilean representatives have been in contact with the Society via earlier statements, and we're simply by coincidence (ICly speaking) thinking along the same lines as them if from a different direction. EA is more on the Coalition end, while WD is now closer to Bretton due to our ties to Allanea via the CSS alliance; Allanea's preferences being in line with Bretton's as I've discussed with him OOCly already and as his entry early in the thread alongside RedTide even if before the current sub-situation started might make one guess.

I could probably send Stewardess Christine as well if needed, even though Admiral Feschina has full authority. Her deputy Charles was put in charge in the first days while she was entertaining some Animarnian friends, and although as far as this thread is concerned that visit is long done nonetheless she could leave the situation at home to him again if required to assist her Admiral on-scene. We could do another thread if needed but for EA's sake at least some announcement in here would of course be due.

You don't know who your RPing with then. This is II. This is a NS Draftroom member. We settle for nothing less than at least being close to reality.

Oh dear I guess we must ask the credentials of everyone showing up in a thread.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And Catawaba, honestly, AN and I were handling the interaction just fine, between IC posts and MSN refinement of actions - and Admiral Foxbridge gave the order for every one to hold as ONLY non manned assets were being targeted by either side. But Red Tide chose to light off his massive amounts of fire power

However I must say that I have mentioned them multiple times, more time in a more 'coy' fashion than not but here is one quote, from post #88...

The orders went out and more orbital assets came on line. Anything leaving Bretton or RED Tide via land, air or sea would be tracked and intelled comepletely. Orbital missile platforms and other military ordinance assets also recieved updated targeting

And with Talrlachia and Imitora leaving the thread, that should soothe the poor ruffled feathers of Bretton.

For what it's worth, I already figured out a tactic against Tarlachia's hoverships, shield or no. Obviously the shield cannot penetrate below the water, or it would create drag, no? Thus, a simple minefield in front of the ship. Being that it is a hovercraft and also possesses great mass (thus being impressively difficult to maneuver using props such as other hovercraft use), it would simply slide right into the minefield. Once the bag is torn, it would then sink like a rock. ;p

For what it's worth, I already figured out a tactic against Tarlachia's hoverships, shield or no. Obviously the shield cannot penetrate below the water, or it would create drag, no? Thus, a simple minefield in front of the ship. Being that it is a hovercraft and also possesses great mass (thus being impressively difficult to maneuver using props such as other hovercraft use), it would simply slide right into the minefield. Once the bag is torn, it would then sink like a rock. ;p

See, I would've seen that as a perfectly legitimate response, and I would have probably sank a few ships as a result, just because that's what would've happened.

I RP strange stuff, sure, but I RP fairly.

But once again, some people have issues with anything that's not black and white...

Ah, I figured I'd missed something, Tanaara.

Anyways, the missile storm ain't that bad...really. The Red Tide has been knowingly creeping up and twisting his mustache all Snidely Whiplash-like. I'm fine with it, and my ships are right in the middle of it.

And, Tarlachia, would this strategy work against the shields?

The chaplain walked up to the VLS launch tube containing a Togovian-copied Harpoon. He raised his eyes to the heavens and clutched his Bible to his chest. "Oh, Lord, we ask that you in your infinite caring and mercy watch out over your devout children here on this fleet. If we must go up against the occult and arcane powers of socery, we ask that you lending your blessings to this Harpoon missile as you did to the riverstone that David placed in his sling. Like that riverstone, O'Lord, may this missile fly straight and true to smite those foes that do threaten your people. And knowing that you have deemed these foes naughty in thine own eyes, shall they ever be snuffed. Amen."

Josiah Starkey leaned over the open launch tube to pear down at the Harpoon. He expected it to...well glow or emit a chorus of angels. "You think that worked, padre?"

The chaplain shrugged. "I don't know. Seemed worth a shot."

:p

It's a question of principle, not functionality. If Damien Dreadfire conjured up daemons that could be shot and killed just like any normal organic life form could be, I'd still object to it on the simple grounds that it's hogwash. Allow me to give you credit in using such faculties without the sole intention of using them to provide an unrealistic level of protection at the expense of the mechanical quality of the RP, since that would be the obvious thing to do. All the same, on the grounds of the principle behind it, I must still object for consistency if nothing else.

Here's (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13428553&postcount=196) where I made the request that Bretton and all hostile parties cool down and at least come to Gorgon to try hashing things out with Etoile Arcture and so. The message is in the coded section if any missed it, that being formatted as if it were a naval ticker-tape cable for some old-school style. Anyway, off to bed but figured I should point this out if it were missed somehow.

Six thousand missiles make it a might late for some of us, Wagdog. Even if the Catawabans aren't targeted, a wall of missiles heading your way doesn't exactly make notice that it isn't heading for you.

Catawaba, see my just made post in the IC thread
Please realise that what is listed in that post is NOT the whole of my response to Red Tides launch. It's just waht I have managed to get figured out so far...

It's on the order of..okay it says here that I have so many of XYZ...what in the hell is XYZ, and there are how many of them in each laucher? and how many lauchers per side of the ship?

Sorry but I can do space battles in my sleep...but one single solitary frigate has me freaking baffelled... now I've got to figure out the PAAMS varriants on a battle ship...whimper...

I checked in, and I have a TG for St Fabian, two even.

Red Tide, the cruiser has 80 SAMs in all between SM-2ERs and ESSs, and the detroyers have 60 SAMs. That's a grand whopping total of 320 possible SAMs. There's no way I could launch all of those. So that what yer CAM-4s got to deal with from Second Fleet before the 300m range of the CIWSs kick in.

I read your post, Tanaara, and made a reply to it in post. Please..."get out of here" with ships that go thirty knots when they're feeling frisky?

Don't mind us fogies, truthfully I tended to Rp on Nationstates a good deal more than II back in the day.

Mainly because so many of the threads wound up in ignore cannon gunplay over here...

OOC: Didn't we all? I miss Resi sometimes, too. Cyberutopia and the rest of them. I'd take one post a week to get that sort of quality again, honestly...

Number one those missiles weren't targeted at you, and given RT's number wank I'm sure he'll have the radar tech to make sure that none of his missiles stray...

and at 500 KM - even with his 3.6 mach super missile - which apparently goes up to 100,000 ft - additional distance to travel - thats about 15 minutes to cover the distance

You go west and I go east better than being sitting ducks!

And we will manage to take down some of his missiles, flat out not all will hit, I promise you that - the simple odds of mechanical failure, then the added bonus of Mr. Murphy ( or your inestimable Quigley ) and my jammers, scammers, and other methods of technological distaction and attention getting missile seduction...plus the things that will just put a bad hair day on his missile by blowing up in their faces...

and there is the unsurvivable fact that I just launced multiple nuclear tipped torpedoes against him. I expect huge amounts of flack about that

Guerilla warfare indeed, my friend. That is St. Fabian's only real hope until he is able to modernize a little.

OOC: I hear you. My nation modernized around 2005 when I got out of basic training and has been fighting a civil war over it since then. I've also been dismissing all of my issues since 2004, much like Imitora relying on RP skill and established, trackable storylines to support my claims. Henceforth, I've only sent Two infantry divisons and two spec-op groups to this miserable excuse for a stat-calculator-wank-fest. That's all I'd be realistically be able to spare if my nation was just recovering from a bloody decade-long civil war. I've just broken out the stat shit to shut a few of you up. Either play the game and can it or get the Hell out. I came to play, not debate statistics and such. I'm an old enough NS'er to remember the big battles between the heavy hitters of the day, which Alcona (we're pretty close in age) kind enough to elaborate on. I've had a nation on NS since before this one (Driddain, very early 2003, but I forget when...), and a few since (Undisclosed, but a few of you can guess).

I also just do the infantry because that's also all I know in terms of tactics. I work with a spec ops unit in the real world, and I'm a former airborne infantry guy. All I know are small unit tactics, airborne ops, infantry manuvers, and firearms. Spec ops are a growing field for me as I understand how these guys operate and how they're used. Should my guys ever land or attacks on manned vessels become a reality, I'll be deploying one of my newest ideas to the area, hidden within the two divisons, to deal some damage.

If only you guys knew how much I missed the pre-Jolt days, when RP on the 'NationStates' forum was king. You had so many open-ended character RP's then that I hardly knew what to do with myself. Sure the forums were crap, but it worked most of the time, at least for me. I come only to II to get something decent to occupy my free time during my deployments, and I hate when some ass decides that he has to justify his forces through stats. I'm an RP'er, not a statistics major. I can give you the stats on damn near every firearm to date, starting from the first world war, because that pretains to my style of RP'ing. Understanding how many soldiers I can field because of my defense budget (?) and population is only good for you hardcore D&D types that want to wank off of stats and the like. I just want to see how well your tactics hold up against mine in an actual conflict devoid of missiles and other strange shit like that. I'm not going to hit you with my long-unused IGNORE cannon, or the INGORE cannon as some of you call it, simply because you outmanuver me, or call on my stats to bail me out. Expect a retreat, a regroup, and a series of coordianted ambushes along the way. If you want to wank stats, I'll have you refer to Sun Tzu. That's really all you need to RP a good war around here, if you want to make it real.

And have my guys landed yet, Tanaara? I'm eager to join the fray should land combat become a real threat. Like Imitora, I'd rather close with and kill my opponent than blast him at long range, just to make sure he dies. Expect little mercy when the land front opens up.

WA for all others may think otherwise I try to play fairly realistically and so the Tanaran Third Fleet hasn't arrived to off load yet...yet - It''s close enought to put in it's two cents worth missile wise, but these are not the sorts of posts that are in any way easy for me to write- ...Like I said earlier whatsit's doing what and how many?

- and be glad, the Task Force that is in the zone is, I am sure, about to be blown to hell and gone ( as you so cheerfully noted [quote]Either play the game and can it or get the Hell out. I came to play, not debate statistics and such[/url] )


actually....TG headed your way!

You need some sort of ballistic-based defense grid, like on the aircraft carriers and CG counter-missile ships. A wall of lead (usually .50 BMG caliber, the undisputed anti-material round of today's MT forces, which everyone wants to use here...) will shut down any missiles sent at you, cheaper than the counter-missile SAM systems. What do you think we had off the coast of North Korea when Kim Jong Ill was messing around with his toy rockets, eh?

I forget the name as I'm not a Navy of CG guy, but it's like the Phalanx or something along those lines, ancient Greek warrior stuff...

Actually, CIWS are not terribly efficient. They CAN do the job, but not at 100% efficiency-- they are meant for a last ditch defense, after all.

That's a given, since you need a wall of lead per missile to score a hit. Then again, .50 BMG's are about $2 a round civilian purchase, versus a thousands-plus dollars per missile. With Tanaara's level of tech she might be able to adapt the tech to something more effective, with all the computer nonsense and what not. A laser system might be more cost-effective, too. The GARDIAN system in the 'Mass Effect' game looks promising, too.

Then again, with the numbers of missiles we're talking here you almost can't miss. In the words of Chesty Puller (at least I think, I tend to confuse names and quotes):

"We're surrounded, so that simplifies the problem..."

It's a target-rich environment, and that just screams mass-volume firepower to me for some reason, hence a bank of large-caliber gattling-style weapons spewing lead at ungodly RPM counts. We both know nothing is 100% effective, that's just wishful thinking on anyone's part. Even 100% of people shot in the head don't die, which is why the double-tap was invented. Blow a large enough chunk of the head away and the body stops working. No birth control claims to be 100% effective either, and neither can any sort of missile control for that matter.

Again, I'm not here to wank stats. It's a suggestion for a friend of mine.

It's worth noting that at the speeds these missiles travel, a CIWS gun has only a few seconds to respond.

Of course, I chose to take a different course than depending on straight out speed and numbers to penetrate enemy anti-air defenses... ;p

Kostemetsia, your attack's ignored. This isn't an FT RP.

Kostemetsia, your attack's ignored. This isn't an FT RP.

Uh... Sorry. That was my bad. I forgot to mention that part to him when I invited him as an ally.

Well, if he's not already there with non-FT spaceships, there's nothing he can really do-- the IR sig of a ship's thrusters stands out quite clearly, so he'd have been seen coming.

The GARDIAN system in the 'Mass Effect' game looks promising, too.

I've played Mass Effect quite a bit of late, but I can't remember what the GARDIAN system is (it's probable I just missed that bit out). Mind explaining it for me?

Just FYI, Axis... The effects of the EMP in my latest entry were those what could happen ;) I don't know how well you were prepared for this so I won't be godmodding any of your ships or missiles. They're yours to save or destroy ;)

Erm, you do know that an EMP can only propagate in atmosphere? ;p

Erm, you do know that an EMP can only propagate in atmosphere? ;p

...

C**p... I knew there was a reason why I never became an engineer.

Can we call "Suspension of disbelief" at this point?

I think at some point later on, I'm gonna write up a brief OOC treatise on space warfare in the MT and PMT bracket. The more people know, the better.

Might be a good idea.

Oi, y'all stay up too late for me.

~Tanaara,

I know OOC that Red Tide has not targeted my flotilla. I figure that good tech that RT possesses could probably pass between my bridge and the deck gun and continue on to target, but there's always a chance that it the weapon could lose lock, confuse my ships for yours, or just go dumb and ballistic. IC however, Starkey knows nothing of the sort. It's just a big wall o'missiles.

Also, Starkey's ships are already moving, have been since they turned back towards the Tanaaran Fleet. East and West would not help since west is towards Fabian and East is straight into RT. North and South would be the best bet, but Starkey's not willing to leave the Tanaarans hanging out in the wind since he believes he has been fired on as well.

~Wandering Argonians,

Most CIWSs like the Phalanx or the Goalkeeper use at least 20mm rounds. The attactiveness and wide-spread use of anti-missile SAMs is that you can take missiles out at range. SM-2ERs have like 100 nm and ESS have 10 nm ranges. A Phalanx has a range of something like 300 yds and needs a three, four second burst for some where around 40-60 rounds to take out a missile. Also, Phalanx can track one target at a time. The newer Goalkeeper can track, I think, eight at a time.

Again, I'm a small arms expert and have never spent time in the Navy/CG. I also don't use Wikipedia, which can limit my knowledge on the newer stuff that doesn't pretain to me. I'm aware of the rounds needed to shoot down a flying object, it's like skeet shooting with a rifle, which is pointless. I am sure, however, if I have 10K missiles coming towards me and I open up with anything automatic, I'm going to hit something, and I'm sure there aren't another 10K worth of missiles to launch back at those incoming ones to take them all down. That would have 20K missiles in the air at once, and that's borderline retarded in terms of numbers of projectiles. They're high-tech guided bombs, not Persian arrows. Hence my suggestion of the ballistic weapon system. I'm also aware of the range difference between anti-missiles and conventional ballistic ammo. Anything past a mile requires severe compensation for windage, humidity, and the rotation of the earth to hit its target as far as bullets are concerned. The fact that I can shoot a missile of my own at the incoming missile and take it down before I can read the 'Made in China' on the side of the thing and that being a good thing goes without saying. I'm an infantryman, not a moron. It's the same logic as to why we kill each other with firearms now and we've regulated the sword to ceremonial uses. The fact that I don't have to be in your face when I end you is attractive to people.

A flak gun of sorts might work better, if you could rig one up to spit shells at a decent enough rate and give each a proximity fuse or something of that nature. Thank you for the clarification, however. My only expeirence with 20mm rounds was with Barrett's new weapon system, and that's overkill by any definition unless you're shooting a tank and you can't call for close air support from an A-10 or something of that nature.

The GARDIAN system is an acronym for a General ARea Network something or other. It's basically a laser point defense system used to shoot down fighters and projectiles at close range and can be overcome through swarm attacks. Check your 'Codex' thing once and a while, it's under the 'Ships' section.

Wasn't tryin' rag on ya, WA. Just givin' helpful information, if that already know it? Cool.

Anyways, some of the newer naval guns are being developed with advanced fire systems that allow for remote or programmed detonation of shells. The WAVE system, I think that's the name, is one of those, and it has an airburst mode that was demonsrated to be quiet effect when blown up right above two light target boats. I figure the same airburst mode couple be highly effective as a flak cannon when aimed skywards.

Number one those missiles weren't targeted at you, and given RT's number wank I'm sure he'll have the radar tech to make sure that none of his missiles stray...

and at 500 KM - even with his 3.6 mach super missile - which apparently goes up to 100,000 ft - additional distance to travel - thats about 15 minutes to cover the distance

You go west and I go east better than being sitting ducks!

And we will manage to take down some of his missiles, flat out not all will hit, I promise you that - the simple odds of mechanical failure, then the added bonus of Mr. Murphy ( or your inestimable Quigley ) and my jammers, scammers, and other methods of technological distaction and attention getting missile seduction...plus the things that will just put a bad hair day on his missile by blowing up in their faces...

and there is the unsurvivable fact that I just launced multiple nuclear tipped torpedoes against him. I expect huge amounts of flack about that

I will repost the info on the CM-4 Anti-Ship Missile. Please note, that this IS a draftroom approved missile, which means it is completely workable.

http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=949&hl=

As to your nuclear torepedoe's, if you mean OOC flak about it, you wont recieve any from me, if you mean IC flak... well, my nations doctrine will be to find a suitable, proportional target.'

EDIT: Shit, I pulled up info on the SM-2ER... and I cannot find a altitude ceiling! Can someone please provide me with this?

Here's info for the RIM-156 SM-2ER Block IV (http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-156.html) and the RIM-162 ESSM (http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-162.html). The SM-2ER's stated maximum altitude is 110,000 ft. For the life of me I can't find the ESSM's maximum alititude. And I have to thank you, RT. The further research you encouraged me to do has made me realize I'm short changing myself a bunch of ESSMs since they're packed four missilies to one VLS cell. I need to do the math again for my total number of SAMs.

Red, I was not opposing the missile you ran it past the Draft room, I think the numbers you put up at one time kind outrageous, but the missile itself? nope.

And I ask again did you launch at civillian taregts?

Also TG coming your way

Wagdog, Allanea, Etoile, I'm outta this thread. I don't like being used, and I won't game with those who break faith. Call it old fashioned if you will I don't really care.

I'm with Tanaara. I'm out. I'm just getting a seriously bad feeling which tells me this one won't work out if I stay.

Fair enough, your call; and I say in good faith that you'll both be missed. 'Twas a pleasure and a privilege as far as I'm concerned, and my apologies for anything untoward in what was ICly a last-ditch move to prevent worse for St. Fabian's end of things. Replied Tan.

St. Fabian, before I post more actions, is Gorgon based on Pyongyang?:confused: If so I'm curious as to whether the local geography is similar enough to maybe include some landmarks in my post. All the better to write as if so, after all.;)

*sighs* So the Fabian Coalition is just only li'l ol' me with a handful of ships :( I'm gonna miss ya Tan and Rom.

I unreservedly apologise to Romandeos and Tanaara if my actions offended you as this had never been my intention, and like Wagdog, I had admired the quality of both your RPing. I hope you will reconsider and stay with the RP until its resolution. At this point, things can go either way for St. Fabian.

In blunt honesty I don't know if I'll ever be willing to game with most of you again. I don't like being stabbed in the back. I feel used and abused.

Any one of you could have TGed and said that they needed to to be the big red flag on the bull, to distract others...and I would have very very likely agreed. I like a good tricksy play as much as any, and probably more than most.

But ya know that didn't happen and so both OOC and ICly I feel betrayed.

I don't handle that well, and I tend not to trust any longer those who do that to me.

And why should I feel that my nation's / leaders thoughts are going to have any effect on the outcome. I refuse to rubber stamp what you all have done...of course I was also wondering if St Fab was about to poison gas all those already there, so that doesn't say much for my state of mind...

But no why waste my time gaming when it will have no effect.

I've already told RT2 that I'll consider my taskforce effectively destroyed, I have not a single problem with that.

My leaving is because of Allanea and Wagdog, and I honestly don't know how much you were in on it - I personally don't think you really were but who knows - Not RT2 - heck he's been as badly used as I have, just by Bretton & Axis Nova, and they used me to do it, so I'm not really happy with them either...

Good Day, have fun invading

Normally, I would have stayed in, but I just keep getting this bad feeling, and it won't leave me alone. Likely it's because of the simple fact that my life is beginning to become crowded now, and I would only end up dragging the whole thing down due to a lot of inactivity on my part, so it's probably best for everybody if I bow out now. I'm already planning one big campaign that's been in the works for a couple RL years that will soon become my main priority.

I'd probably like a chance to RP with some of you in future, so here's hoping.

If I may, I understand bridges may be considered burned; and that is my regret here. But if I may explain myself, allow me to; for I'm the architect of these events and will acknowledge so (if perhaps acting under situational pressure due to Allanea's unwillingness to oppose Bretton in favor of Etoile Arcture as I'd've originally preferred he do). I acted as rashly as I did because the plan was originally to keep the coup de main as a resreve option in case the promised talks were going south; however, I wasn't aware of how things would deteriorate behind the scenes while I was at work yesterday. Hence, my plans had to be accelerated or else still worse IC would've happened.

Suffice it to say as best I can, I overheard credible evidence on Internet Relay Chat from multiple sources that if Etoile and I didn't act in broad concert with the Brettonian interest immediately then not only would St. Fabian be subject to the worst of Allanean brutality, but also that ZMI would be called in against the Coalition homelands and the war expanded far beyond St. Fabian with catastrophic intent and effect. In IC terms, since though perhaps not perfect form this wasn't a total metagame as we could all see what was gathering here, my government knew that the Allanean actions meant that if we didn't act, they would; thus best we act and regain some control over the situation into the hands of those least likely to abuse said control. Hence, whereas originally we'd've loved to have the diplomatic conference and act as one with you all (I even schemed up sending my IC leader Stewardess Christine Friedrich and what she might say to Queen Lockheart and so), the time for that on my and Etoile's ends had simply run out. There was literally no option left unless I wanted to be ICly complicit in a war of the worst sort, which I didn't. And just like I said it would be unfair to St. Fabian for us to let OOC bickering ruin his intro RP, I felt it would be still more unfair to watch his people subjected to the worst of '03 nations' brutality simply because of the perceived 'communist' nature of their current government.

Therefore, After I was contacted by Etoile Arcture (perhaps with me contacting him first, I don't recall whether he replied to my IC hints at what was coming or else a first TG), we agreed on what might become necessary and he laid the groundwork for what was (and remains) my plan. Allanea had no more than a pressure role in this, so if you have to blame ANYONE blame me and perhaps my IC unwillingness to stand up to an ally more; something I usually don't have a problem with and probably need to rediscover how to do.:headbang:

I must repeat, I was not using the Coalition as targets or punching bags, and this was never my intent. In fact, if still interested (though I doubt it now) you can still act as part of this new occupation to ensure that Etoile's interests are upheld here; they're still more in line with yours even despite my (forced) closeness to Bretton and our idea was that EA and WD would balance each other out. But if I have given the impression of trying to use your forces as IC human shields, then that is my fault and I take responsibility for it.

Again, playing with you was an honor and a privilege; which if I must surrender than I shall do so with greatest regrets. For St. Fabian's sake I intend to carry on and see to it that his people can hold elections without any purges prior, and I must say beforehand (as I failed to before) that ICly my government will NOT tolerate attempts at such purges and if necessary will simply pack up and go home in disgust to keep what honor we can. I sincerely hope that now that Etoile and I have given Allanea and Bretton their pound of flesh, that won't have to happen; and perhaps all involved in this thread can show the proper maturity both IC and OOC such fortunate tidings would imply.

With Respects and Regrets,
-Charles, The player behind WD.

I've got nothing against you, WD. My considerations are essentially practical.

I actually would like to RP with several people here, including yourself, in future, if that is possible. When my main work, which I mentioned in my last post, begins, you might be able to find a place there.

The threats from certain smug arses who hang out in a chat that beings with the letter D should not affect your RP in any way. Simply ignore any actions arising from those threats as being based on out of character motivations, which, obviously, from what you've said, they would be.

(also there's been no OOC communication between myself and Red Tide; I havn't talked to the man at all, and indeed, Bretton has told me he hasn't been talking to him).

I'll hand it to ya, Wag. You owned up to your part. I respect that.

Besides that, y'all are really a piece o'work. I have RP'd a lot, not here obvioiusly. This is a game. The need for 'operational security' is bull. We all assume that we are able and trustworthy roleplayers that we can withhold meta-knowledge from our characters. If you all truly wanted to pull a bait and switch, informing those of us left hanging would have been appreciated.

If you have outside alliances that are pressuring actions, write it out. That's good drama. The torn angst of the contradictory stance that you must take in order to protect your people or for the greater good. Write it out, we'll understand, we may applaud you for it. But turning your coat and plotting to do without giving the rest of a word about it is poor RP etiquette.

Also I'll take you up on your offer of blame that you would not stand up against your alliance. If you have to stand against an alliance, it's not really an alliance, is it? It's a international hostage situation.

Gorram, y'all. I may not add anything but flowery words to this thread because I chose to RP a firm character nation that's interesting to me. I chose not to wield fleets that dwarf Operation Overlord or legions that cow real superpowers. Now, I feel like I was just walked over. In character, yeah that fits. How gives a snowball's chance in hell about a flotilla smaller than your own destroyer screen. Out of character, I feel a distinct lack of hospitality.

I'll give RT a couple of days. Since my ships aren't targeted by that missile strike, can't really fault him on number size since I can't find the cyclical rate to launch misisles from a VLS and then I did the same with my SAMs, the missiles can just pass over. I can RP a whimpering defeat, picked up any Coalition survivors, and then I'm out.

I'm with Tanaara and Romandoes in feeling just a bit used. Again, I have no problem losing. Part of me was looking forward to that, good drama there. But being manipulated behind the scenes and with no notice even in the OOC thread? That's a deliberate plan to mislead those not informed.

In character, my country can't support this kind of invasion even for the 'greater good' which is usually a bull sort of rationalization. Since it does not have the ability to combat or prevent such an invasion it must beg the forgiveness of the Fabian people and slink away in shame. Catawaba will not deal with any invader of Saint Fabian.

Personally as the player, I'm disappointed I've got to now look behind the mask of the country to find the trustworthiness of the player. I will need time to figure this out, but I think I will not interact with some of you in the future and perhaps warn others of the same. That'd just be common decency.

Catawaba: Begging your indulgence on the matter, but "Judas'ing" a group you were formerly allied with is a pretty basic tenet of II. Even though Axis Nova and I have signed an alliance in perpetuity, I still don't let him build bases or station troops in my country, and the same to him. Mutual distrust is the name of the game, which most people find out the hard way the first time, as you've just done. I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it - it happens to everyone. You might even say it's par for the course, really. I haven't participated in a twelve-plus nation engagement without having at least one country either switch sides, go rogue or abruptly withdraw forces, leaving their ally dangling.

Etoile Arcture, not A. motorcade? you think the brightest minds in my nation are stupid enough to advertise they're leaving? I'll go with it as a distraction for them to escape, but stop rping what my people do. Also, those computers your hacking into, running MS-Dos, just a little FYI and the only thing you'll find is a few recipes the old king like, as you are now cut-off from the servers that hold the real information on the nation. You also have no control over the bunker now, as it is completely self sufficient and the computer connection to the bunker computer has been physically severed within the bunker, if the old king could do one thing right, it was to ensure he would survive a nuclear attack, so good luck getting in, also good luck finding 20 people in a nation of 163 million, who are willing to hide them. They've already escaped your grasp, even if you do find the tunnels, you still think you already have them, so by the time you realize your mistake, it will be too late to find even one of them, never mind all.

Everyone else, don't give up, the Society of the Mind shall make a public statement soon, and the fight will continue.

Fair enough, I overstepped the mark so I'll take my lumps for that because I was wrong. Tho, if I'm permitted to use the OOC info concerning the computers, my hacker should be able to quickly figure things out - but not fast enough to either save my people or catch any of the Society of the Mind.

Of course, by murdering our envoys the Society made a new enemy in EA. Home public opinion will now make it impossible for EA to counternance any final political settlement with St. Fabian until after the Society has been brought to justice for these and other acts.

I am sorry guys, but I have to drop out. Since I dont really have the time to write an IC post, here's what happens.

1. The CM-4 launch is retconned, never happened.
2. My fleet is either A: sunk, or B: turning around and heading home(depending on whether your still going to fire on it or not). It matters little which, as if the former happens, my nation's government simply shrugs its collective shoulders and begins to replace the losses.
3. As for OOC, I indeed have not been in OOC communication with either Axis or Bretton. I came into this RP, actually far ahead of both of them. Just wanted to clear that up.
4. Finally, I have decided to take a weekend break from NS. This thread having really uped my blood pressure and all that.

Still, I had a good time RPing the tension and behind-the-scene manuevering during the period just before hostilities. And THAT is what NS is about, not winning, but RP'ing and telling a story.

Fair enough, I overstepped the mark so I'll take my lumps for that because I was wrong. Tho, if I'm permitted to use the OOC info concerning the computers, my hacker should be able to quickly figure things out - but not fast enough to either save my people or catch any of the Society of the Mind.

Of course, by murdering our envoys the Society made a new enemy in EA. Home public opinion will now make it impossible for EA to counternance any final political settlement with St. Fabian until after the Society has been brought to justice for these and other acts.

You don't know they're dead yet, and you won't till someone gets into the bunker, during which there will, most likely be fighting, and we can just say they got shot in the cross fire, the bodies, will end up lost, on the way to being autopsied, and that will be that a tragic loss in a far away war.

You don't know they're dead yet, and you won't till someone gets into the bunker, during which there will, most likely be fighting, and we can just say they got shot in the cross fire, the bodies, will end up lost, on the way to being autopsied, and that will be that a tragic loss in a far away war.
Indeed if EA's taking his lumps then so shall I; though I'll fluid-time back in some vague resistance during my next post if you don't mind, since my delegation would've definitely fought back (or else been taken for hostages, maybe?:p). Also, again about the geography? Knowing what city (if any; Pyongyang was just my guess based on the map, though I might've mistaken Seoul based on a warped perception of the SOM lol) Gorgon's roughly based on would help out much, though my apologies for any untoward assumptions if made when first asking.

Where was the last post about my people Wag??

Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13431668#post13431668) we are. I wrote that the way I did so I could return them however you wanted; if you need 'em directly to your ship, you can RP the takeoff after the chopper refuels and I'll just cover getting there and then the departure. I'm not sure how safe that is ICly yet, even accounting for RT bowing out (will miss you too...:(), but they're your people so if you need me to run a gauntlet to get them directly home I can do so. For reference, the deck of a Tri Svyatitelya greatly resembles that of the Admiral Kuznetsov or its' nuclear-powered would've-been counterpart the Ul'yanovsk; just scaled up to NS size (~700m in this case IIRC) for a 'supercarrier' and so on.

Indeed if EA's taking his lumps then so shall I; though I'll fluid-time back in some vague resistance during my next post if you don't mind, since my delegation would've definitely fought back (or else been taken for hostages, maybe?:p). Also, again about the geography? Knowing what city (if any; Pyongyang was just my guess based on the map, though I might've mistaken Seoul based on a warped perception of the SOM lol) Gorgon's roughly based on would help out much, though my apologies for any untoward assumptions if made when first asking.

I don't think you delegation was in the bunker yet.

I don't think you delegation was in the bunker yet.
Er... read Etoile's posts again, particularly here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=548516&page=15) where the surprise move started. She's mentioned as there, with my permission given accordingly to EA to mention her as there since we wanted to be ready to either move or talk as the situation commanded; which again I botched the timing of when I saw something coming OOC that likely wasn't coming IC after all (or wasn't coming soon anyway) and overreacted. Hence, my Admiral's there as far as I'm concerned; likely dead as supposedly for the Etoilean delegation's fate although perhaps she could be useful as a hostage if you'd prefer that. Either way is fine, since I'll just raise her Vice to command the fleet and so on to develop them as a character in this plotline.

Is it ok if I make another post concerning my force's descent through the atmosphere? I was gonna give folks a chance to do something about it.

I figure I'll be descending for one more post, then landing in the next post after that.

Is it ok if I make another post concerning my force's descent through the atmosphere? I was gonna give folks a chance to do something about it.

I figure I'll be descending for one more post, then landing in the next post after that.


That would be grand. I'm also looking forward to reading what happened to Orion, hint hint ;)

St. Fabian: While I congratulate you on having NBC gear handy for just such a situation, the riot control agents I use are dual-function in nature in that they can be inhaled into the lungs, or transmitted via percutaneous absorption. In other words, a gas mask will only delay the onset of symptoms - full MOPP4 gear would be required to remain wholly unaffected by the stuff.

I would have mentioned this in the post itself, but I figured the poor backwards citizenry wouldn't have those resources, so it was an oversight and an assumption on my part. I apologize for that one.

Look up 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate if you're interested in reading further; the junk I use is a slightly refined derivative with similar effects.

Translation: The stuff can also be absorbed through the skin.

edit: time warp

St. Fabian: While I congratulate you on having NBC gear handy for just such a situation, the riot control agents I use are dual-function in nature in that they can be inhaled into the lungs, or transmitted via percutaneous absorption. In other words, a gas mask will only delay the onset of symptoms - full MOPP4 gear would be required to remain wholly unaffected by the stuff.

I would have mentioned this in the post itself, but I figured the poor backwards citizenry wouldn't have those resources, so it was an oversight and an assumption on my part. I apologize for that one.

Look up 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate if you're interested in reading further; the junk I use is a slightly refined derivative with similar effects.

For future reference, my nation tends to be playing both sides against each other. However, I do tend to inform OOC players who I think can keep their OOC knowledge from their IC knowledge.

Alright Catawahaba, how much damage have your ships taken...

Actually how much damage has anyone's ships taken, since right now is when the Pentaca would be in range.

Wag Two quick points
1-You don't IC know that my ship is a Q ship (although you might know we have them and assume it is a Q ship) and capable of much SAR. Of course we announced we would be doing SAR,and we are a Navy vessel, so no problems really. I suppose at the moment we are the only true 'neutral' about anymore besides Catawahaba, and it looks like they just had their heads handed to them.

2-How big are those helio? of yours...realize that a Q ship has a good deal of cranes, and other deck obstructing equipment, their not designed to land helicopters. (In general they operate with UAV's for scouting or flying boats for long distance supply lines)

Since a K type doesn't have a forward gun system but is a 'missile boat', you could land a hughie sized copter on the forward cargo hatch. But that is about it.

Wag Two quick points
1-You don't IC know that my ship is a Q ship (although you might know we have them and assume it is a Q ship) and capable of much SAR. Of course we announced we would be doing SAR,and we are a Navy vessel, so no problems really. I suppose at the moment we are the only true 'neutral' about anymore besides Catawahaba, and it looks like they just had their heads handed to them.

2-How big are those helio? of yours...realize that a Q ship has a good deal of cranes, and other deck obstructing equipment, their not designed to land helicopters. (In general they operate with UAV's for scouting or flying boats for long distance supply lines)

Since a K type doesn't have a forward gun system but is a 'missile boat', you could land a hughie sized copter on the forward cargo hatch. But that is about it.
1. :headbang: Thank you. Will edit that much; might've been an author's reference, but thanks for the allowance and I'll see if I can edit it to more generic terms. The more you think you've already learned, the more you still need to it seems.

2. Pretty big, this one is around the size of an Mi-14 or so or maybe slightly smaller (Czechalrus' design idea was to mix a naval Huey and Haze into one when he did it); so I guess it's the forward hatch unless the passengers want to fast-rope. They could do this if we want the comedy, but it would hardly be dignified.

3. So as to get form more under control, anything else I need to know that I can IC yet? I'm still waiting for Gorgon's layout (whether in map terms or just "like x city") so for now I'll be going over what St. Fabian posted about his army's AA capabilities so my troops who don't know the Admiral lives can naturally assume the worst and start their initial attacks.

The Map is in, sorry 'bout the quality, but hey, best I could do, also not like most maps, but up is really south sorry. Also the white circle indicates the government building.

Gorgon
http://a915.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/98/l_e41d57c2126478331244f93b0693e1e2.png

The Map is in, sorry 'bout the quality, but hey, best I could do, also not like most maps, but up is really south sorry. Also the white circle indicates the government building.

Gorgon
http://a915.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/98/l_e41d57c2126478331244f93b0693e1e2.png
Great.:cool: I've covered what I want for the night, but thanks. Oh, and before I go, SimCity + NationStates = Win. Been forever since I last played SC but this truly just made my day.

I must again protest the knowledge of the government making publications about the "use of chemical weapons against civilians." I've gone to great lengths to disrupt and invalidate effective communications between Gorgon and the rest of the country for just such a contingency... At any rate, there's still the matter that I've made note of above to consider.

Betton, first you launched an attack which tended to focus on broadcast systems, not landlines. You said you did, but your bomb load was specific to radio and television, cell systems. They would be rather ineffective against a good old 1920's analog phone system since there wouldn't be enough radiation to attract them.

Oh, and you avoided hitting 'domestic' antenna, which means anyone with a shortwave radio (which wouldn't have been on during your bombardment) could have come on line after the attack.

Also sat phones (using a non-domestic carrier) could be used.

Finally you can't assume 100% target destruction

However, the announcement does seem a bit fast considering that St. Fabian needs time to re-organize a communication network

St Fabian has stated his country has 50s era technology. Any sat phones in the country are likely in the possession of the current visitors.

I must again protest the knowledge of the government making publications about the "use of chemical weapons against civilians." I've gone to great lengths to disrupt and invalidate effective communications between Gorgon and the rest of the country for just such a contingency... At any rate, there's still the matter that I've made note of above to consider.

Word of mouth, best form of communication, also, the society of the mind has spread out through out the nation. We still have a very viable telegraph lines, as I don't remember you saying anything about cutting those.

The thing about telegraphs is that they're not so good for communicating with people in other countries. Likewise, word of mouth takes time to spread.

The thing about telegraphs is that they're not so good for communicating with people in other countries. Likewise, word of mouth takes time to spread.

No they aren't good with communicating other nations, but they are good with communicating with a paper in the capital that no one seems to have attempted to stop or shutdown. A paper which has a website, and uses dial-up, which brings us back to those friendly telephone lines.

Point taken. Though your newspaper is going to look pretty silly when it comes out that the gas is sleeping gas.

For what it's worth, you can thank me for convincing Bretton to not go right in with the baton rounds. I'd rather not think what a 75mm baton round would do to a brittle old man hip.

Actually the 'wire services' used teletype over telegraph wires from 1914 to about 1990. So even then good old 1950's newspaper could transmit stories around the world.

*Evil Grin* I'm going to go with that actually if you don't mind St Fabian.

Telegraph lines... hrumph, I should have known. Well, no matter.

At any rate, since you've yet to respond to my earlier questions, I'll assume that the villagers are not provided with full MOPP4 gear and post accordingly.

I'm going to have bow out of this too. I don't think I can put in the time neccessary to produce sme good quality RPing. Was a pleasure in spite of all the bumps.

A pleasure as well EA.:) My apologies for my role in the bumps, but all there is for it now is to carry on.

St. Fabian, you should have a TG from me; just noting in case you missed it somehow. It covers what I'd like to do before we have my Admiral get back in touch with home and start the endgame wheeling-&-dealing here; a little resistance by your people to my air and armored landings would only be fair after all.

So....Bretton, in the absence of the person who plays the country the RP is set in...who is seemingly discouraged and disgusted with the occurances so far in the the thread as to not log into the forum for the past twenty days...you'll just keep acting out your jingoist fantasies?

Wouldn't be the first time a party on the road to defeat has quit the forum before the conclusion of events. Unlike the "real RP'ers", I choose to adhere to my stated population and economic figures - as a result, even if my original objectives can no longer be accomplished, some degree of success will be achieved.

In any case, if this was going to be a problem for your sensibilities, perhaps you should not have abandoned the RP?

So....Bretton, in the absence of the person who plays the country the RP is set in...who is seemingly discouraged and disgusted with the occurances so far in the the thread as to not log into the forum for the past twenty days...you'll just keep acting out your jingoist fantasies?

As far as I am concerned, when a person quits, drops out, or leaves NS, his territories are free for claiming and grabbing, unless he specifically leaves instruction to what is to be done with them.

If Bretton wants bits of St. Fabian, he is welcome to them, I will back him up.

Well, Bret, I left the thread for a number of reasons. Your conduct and attitude are amongst my out of character reasons. In character however, I chose not to follow a set of infalated numbers that every day allowed me to gain millions of people so that within a couple of weeks of existance I was rivalling the United States for population. I chose to play a character in setting Catawaba lower in technology and ability.

With RedTide's missile salvo, my few ships would have had to expend all of their SAMs to help defend my allies in theater. With damaged ships and low ammo, there was little choice but for our fleets to withdraw. I really have no force left to send, no active role to play in the thread, thus I have not.

Will this be a problem with my sensibilities? Heavens no. My sensibilities are made up about you. I was just make light of your amoral, jingoist behaviour for the rest of the board.

For the record, I do not see jingoism as bad, nor Bretton's behavior as amoral. Thank you for your contribution.

OK people, time I started straightening some stuff out before I try to go back to sleep. I had a sense I should check things a bit, and as usual I was correct.:rolleyes: First of all, to the matter at hand; and to throw some water on what look like embers here.

Bretton has his freeform rights yes, but so does everyone else up to a reasonable point (for the record on my part: I had my own questions about the realism or technical feasibility of some things the Coalition did as well, but which others addressed well enough for me to allow them pride of place in so doing). However, my recent posts since the controversy surrounding my actions to depose the Society of the Mind (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13431668#post13431668) (Etoile Arcture merely having been an ally, the plan and execution being above all my own at beginning and end) had one intent as my allies and I discussed on IRC several times after the controversy broke: Get a compromise peace so the situation could be resolved by election and then we could leave St. Fabian alone as he specifically and ICly requested (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13442453&postcount=234) of my commanding officer on-the-scene in his last post; after she sensibly negotiated mutually-acceptable terms with the Society realizing her coup gambit had failed. Intent which I discussed with Bretton at length and to his general assent or at least non-dissent.

In my last two (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13486111#post13486111) posts (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13499280#post13499280) no less, I have ICly reiterated requests from my highest levels of government (while still in communication with our forces in St. Fabian) that per said compromise surrender of St. Fabian to me I be acknowledged as the de jure occupying power in this region; assisted by Bretton and Allanea de facto per sensible request given ICly limited forces as yet. Requests I alerted both to over chat prior to posting them, and which did not alter my compliance with Bretton's request for IFF codes as indeed was only equally-sensible of an ally to do. I further requested in my last post per St. Fabian's original request that violence other than against active noncompliance to the surrender by Society members cease, due to the basics of allied objectives having been completed once my agreement was announced.

These requests, as Bretton's last post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13522953#post13522953) indicates, have been summarily ignored in toto as I see it now. In short, it's not the IC jingoism that I (personally) feel I must criticize; we need "heel" nations in this game to provide variety after all. Rather I'm growing increasingly uncomfortable with the simple disrespect shown for the thread owner and also (increasingly) myself apparently in this issue as well by the occupying side. Frankly what I recommend as at least the de jure occupying nation (irrespective of any alliance) in St. Fabian the country is that the best respect possible now be shown to St. Fabian the player and this matter simply be dropped; so he can resume what RP he chooses and where. How we resolve that ICly in my case, as the instigating party of this fiasco by my rash actions, is something I am flexible about; but either way I must say that things here are approaching an IC point that my nation (which takes protection of captives surrendered to us seriously as believers in the customary law of war at least) cannot accept and moreover nor can I as a player. I've tried to achieve a compromise, and it looks like I've been rebuffed; hence we have an issue though one I do believe can be discussed and resolved yet with the use of simple sense and respect.

You might not like the reasoning behind it, Wag, but Allanea did hit the nail on the head with the whole bit on jingoism. I'll simply defer to good old T.R. on this issue - when an opportunity presents itself, you take it.

http://www.independent.org/images/article_images/tr.gif

I'll be damned if I don't get -something- out of this mess.