NationStates Jolt Archive

The recent moderation thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=544188)/ruling (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13252262&postcount=14) about the existence of the NSUN (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1225) in NS roleplay raises an interesting query: Do you personally assume the existence of the NSUN in your own roleplay, and why or why not?

Opinions and constructive comments on the matter are welcomed; however, there is no cause for attacking other players, or moaning about why all players don't acknowledge/disacknowledge the UN in II. Thank you.

By the way, this is the NSUN we're talking about here, not the RL U.N. The NSUN is dramatically different than the RL United Nations we all know and "love."

When I RPed as a modern/PMT nation I did my best to abide by the NSUN because I felt that that made for better roleplaying as a nation.

However, for the past few years I've been a Future tech nation and left the NSUN because I didn't really see myself as connected to it because I was no longer RPing anything on "Earth".

(Also, this thread should probably be in Gameplay or General.)

i see both are slow at taking action at things that need taken care of before they get out of hand

No. And this doesn't belong in II.

It's posted here because the issue with the moderation ruling was whether the NSUN existed in II. Since the ruling was essentially that it's up to individual II posters, I figured it would be interesting to poll them specifically. Also, as this is a thread about roleplay, I thought it appropriate.

I don`t acknowledge the RL UN either. John Birch Forever.

Yes.

The NSUN may be powerless, and according to the theory that "If you don't accept the NSUN in roleplay, it doesn't exist," but I find it distasteful to do that. I just do. Denying the NSUN's vast potential and power is like denying AMF's strength, it's not justified.

That being said, I abandoned efforts to actually integrate the NSUN into II... I've assembled a group of UN nations (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=449442) willing to intervene as peacekeepers, back in 2005 (times has changed greatly since then, but the idea was succesful). And I posted a thread about the NSUN colonizing the Moon. The first RP did somewhat well before dying of inactivity (like most RPs), and the second one has gotten much hatred.

I have also quoted huge UN resolutions and examined them bit by bit in order to solve international delimmas...I have sold UN weapons of mass destructions that attempt to get around UN prohibitions and bans...but when I did that, few people actually even cared to comment.

Why will intergration fail? Because the majority of the II players don't want the NSUN. Because the people in II don't want to listen to boring lectures and annoying discussion about international law. Because II wants to deal with WARFARE, not peace. The Nationstates forum may be more willing to do such a thing as they are less likely to go to war rather than engage in diplomacy...but not really as well, since the Nationstates forum is peaceful, and if so, what's the point of the UN then?

I acknowledge the NSUN in roleplay because I like the NSUN. However, I can't force my beliefs on others, so I'll be fine.

HOWEVER, there is one exception. If you get in a war with me, and you are in the NSUN, I expect you to follow all NSUN laws to the letter. If you're in the NSUN, you better respect the NSUN.

It depends.

I most certainly do not recognize Scope's UN, I do not recognize the NS UN in general (as it is full of lose and more lose), but I do play as if Adygea were a member of the real-life UN.

I'd like to point out my view... while I don't have an OFFICIAL stance on it which will dictate it in every RP, I generally don't really care/pay attention to it, as most of the RPs around - at least those that I'm in - don't really involve the UN. Those who declare a "UN vs. the world" n00bfest I stay out of ICly (though... obviously serve up OOC pointers/help) - and most people just fire their ignore cannons or return the n00b attacks with a taste of their own meds.

Basically, if a RP calls for it, I'll recognize it, but like I said, most RPs - at least those I'm involved in - don't really have anything to do w/ the UN, thus no stance is really taken.

Then again, it helps that I'm not in the UN.

The NSUN has no player controlled governing body of any sort, and therefore could not enforce anything even if people wanted it to. At least the real life UN has a governing body consisting of representatives from member nations, but on NS we don't have that. Delegates simply vote on arbitrary resolutions and that's it, whereas the real UN could at least do something if it wanted to in terms of interventions or sanctions.

NSUN is a completely impotent organization in terms of RP, which is why I (and lots of other RPers) simply don't acknowledge it as existing. To me NSUN is an empty building with the lights on, but nobody's ever inside.

The problem is, why haven't such a player body been made? It could be pretty easy to have UN nations come together to become that "player body" and help enforce the UN dictates in RP, no matter what. (The Permenta Panel in the UN, for instance, was one of those player bodies, but it did fail due to lots of restrictions and inactivity.)

My personal belief is such a player body hasn't been made and been succesful because nobody wants it or the very few people that do want it realize it takes too much time and that it's far too much effort for too little work. It's "impotent" in RP because most RP people want it to be impotent. And that's how it's meant to be.

Rofl NSUN. I hope someone actualy does somehow get it to function on II because I would have a blast making a mockery of it :)

I fail to see how there is justification for assuming there is a functioning NSUN when there is next to no RP done surrounding the idea.

Also saying that denying the existence of the UN is like denying AMF's strength is completely ludicrous. Deny the existence of the UN, like goes on. Deny AMF... it does not.

I fail to see how there is justification for assuming there is a functioning NSUN when there is next to no RP done surrounding the idea.

I consider this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1225) as RP. The Stranger's Bar as well, but mostly the drafting of proposals, the voting on them, as well as the repeals.

Also saying that denying the existence of the UN is like denying AMF's strength is completely ludicrous. Deny the existence of the UN, like goes on. Deny AMF... it does not.

The reason I suggest a person shouldn't deny the UN is because both the UN and AMF has a rich history behind them, and there are people who treat what they say very seriously. And the UN has at currently 27.42% of all Nationstates in the world, so it does seem to be treated with at least some respect by some people (How many people recognize the II forum? How many people recognize AMF?).

However, people can, and they will, ignore stuff they don't want. However, I'd be better to back out of this thread, judging that we already got the will of the II here.

The NSUN has no player controlled governing body of any sort, and therefore could not enforce anything even if people wanted it to. At least the real life UN has a governing body consisting of representatives from member nations, but on NS we don't have that. Delegates simply vote on arbitrary resolutions and that's it, whereas the real UN could at least do something if it wanted to in terms of interventions or sanctions.

NSUN is a completely impotent organization in terms of RP, which is why I (and lots of other RPers) simply don't acknowledge it as existing. To me NSUN is an empty building with the lights on, but nobody's ever inside.

I must agree with my fellow ancient player here. The NSUN is simply unable to enforce any of its resolutions upon the world of RP. In fact anything totally short of a complete acceptance of the NSUNs authority would not be enough to establish any true recognition of the NSUN.

Now would it be impossible for the NSUN to be able to operate in the II forums?- No. But as I stated before. you would find that everyone would not accept it as an authority. Plus with the existence of of multi-tech nations that troll these forums it would cause a great deal of confusion as people would challenge its every move with " You have no authority over me... I dont even exist in your time ".

No. And this doesn't belong in II.

Yes it does. If you want to be a RP purist, go right ahead, but this forum is open to ALL Nationstates RPers, even if you don't agree with their assumptions. If player(s) want to acknowledge or ignore the NSUN in their threads, that's ENTIRELY up to them.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NS Game Moderator

I voted: 'Dont care.' But I am curious, where is this ruling?

If you are not signatory to the UN, you are not signatory to the UN.

But I am curious, where is this ruling?Linked in the OP.

HOWEVER, there is one exception. If you get in a war with me, and you are in the NSUN, I expect you to follow all NSUN laws to the letter. If you're in the NSUN, you better respect the NSUN.

Bull. That's like saying that just because a nation is in the UN, it meets the UN's standards immediantly. If, by some great revolution, you get everyone on II to recognize the UN, this is what happens in my nation: (NOTE: I'm in the NSUN) UN inspectors go to my nation, they vanish. Quite simple. Even if I do recognize the UN, and am in the UN, it still has nothing it can do to make me follow the UN. The UN doesn't exist on II, and even if it did, it wouln't matter.

I do recognize it as part of the II World

The NSUN has no player controlled governing body of any sort, and therefore could not enforce anything even if people wanted it to. At least the real life UN has a governing body consisting of representatives from member nations, but on NS we don't have that. Delegates simply vote on arbitrary resolutions and that's it, whereas the real UN could at least do something if it wanted to in terms of interventions or sanctions.

NSUN is a completely impotent organization in terms of RP, which is why I (and lots of other RPers) simply don't acknowledge it as existing. To me NSUN is an empty building with the lights on, but nobody's ever inside.

PUPPET NATION

I agree with AMF, stated clearly and completely.

HOWEVER, there is one exception. If you get in a war with me, and you are in the NSUN, I expect you to follow all NSUN laws to the letter. If you're in the NSUN, you better respect the NSUN.Bull. That's like saying that just because a nation is in the UN, it meets the UN's standards immediantly [sic]. If, by some great revolution, you get everyone on II to recognize the UN, this is what happens in my nation: (NOTE: I'm in the NSUN) UN inspectors go to my nation, they vanish. Quite simple. Even if I do recognize the UN, and am in the UN, it still has nothing it can do to make me follow the UN. The UN doesn't exist on II, and even if it did, it wouln't [sic] matter.Then I would strongly suggest not getting into a war with SilentScope, because that was his entire point. I mean, it is his choice whether to acknowledge you or not, right?

The problem is, why haven't such a player body been made? It could be pretty easy to have UN nations come together to become that "player body" and help enforce the UN dictates in RP, no matter what. (The Permenta Panel in the UN, for instance, was one of those player bodies, but it did fail due to lots of restrictions and inactivity.)

My personal belief is such a player body hasn't been made and been succesful because nobody wants it or the very few people that do want it realize it takes too much time and that it's far too much effort for too little work. It's "impotent" in RP because most RP people want it to be impotent. And that's how it's meant to be.
I recognize the NS United Nations ICly, but our government does realize that it is largely impotent because of it's lack of organization and hierarchal structure. I've heard that in the past (through the grapevine, so it may not be correct), Max Barry didn't want a Secretary-General position because he felt that that nation could use it's Secretary-General powers to dictate it's will across the role-playing community, and that wouldn't have turned out well...

Yes, and no.

OOCly, I couldn't care less. Honestly. My only qualm is that I expect nations who join the UN to abide by at least most of the NSUN resolutions, if only because I see no point in joining the UN except to have a voice in those resolutions. If you want a voice, you must accecpt the consequences. However this is something I am fairly lenient on sticking to. If a player joins NS tommorow, joins the NSUN, and goes on breaking a bunch of NSUN regulations through poor RP then I would push their membership in the NSUN in their face and expect them to follow those regulations. If AMF joined the NSUN tommorow, I wouldn;t give a crap what he did. Because I fear him and not new players? Nope, I don't fear AMF. But I respect him, and I know he's not doing something dumb. I know he's working from a carefully crafted idea of his society, and I do not have that with random_new_nation, nor have they been around to earn my respect for that.

Now ICly, it simply doesn't matter. To Sumer, all international organisations that it is not involved with, are meaningless. So quite frankly, Sumer couldn't care less about the NSUN as it considers the NSUN little more then the USA would consider an alliance between three dirt-poor African countries an issue.

OOC-->

Yes and no and its conditional on the players involved. The UN has its uses in rhetoric and propaganda, you use it to get your point across whatever it may be. To convince your citizenry and neutral nations of the righteousness of your actions to sway them to your side, you find the UN as your beacon of behavior and you can paint your opponent as anti-rational by showing how he is not a respecter of decency.... easier to do if your potential opponent acts like a bully and believes that he can do anything he pleases without consequences (true, but only an inexperienced strategist will actually say something so bold out loud). If you succeed in winning the war of sympathy, you'll get enough allies to help you perpetuate your war or your actions while your opponent becomes isolated and sent off to irrelevance for being disconnected from reality. Even Hitler tried to deny any wrongdoings during his reign and he also successfully hid his crimes from his own administrators (ordering soldiers to look away from Auschwitz while they were traveling by train beside it because they would be polluted by seeing the Jews at work while the real reason was that even loyal soldiers would question anything coming from a madman).

And no, I wouldn't bother using the UN if most of the players are "Risk" types of players who think that wars are only fought and won by superior numbers or technologies. With those players, you can not explain that history is full of examples of superior thinking always beats out on other factors. They seem to think that if they win in games like "Risk" (or even "Axis and Allies" only slightly more sophisticated) then they are competent strategists.

Case 1} 300 Spartans against the Persian Empire's punitive expedition, the battle was decided by a shepherd who betrayed his compatriots by showing the Persians a secret mountain pass to cut off the Spartans and the Spartans had insulted their version of the "Greek UN" so that the other Greeks withdrew and let the Spartans get bumped off.

Case 2} Genghis Khan had a tremendous force and was ready to wipe out any who defied him. The Chinese welcomed him with open arms and transformed Genghis Khan into a civilized Chinese to rule China as it had always been ruled, the Chinese way, not the Mongol way. China was a very bureaucratic institution at the time and it out-fought the Mongols and outlasted their legacy.

If the players accept that the military dimension is but one aspect out of many, then yes, use the UN in your roleplay. If the players think that the military aspect is the only one that matters, then don't bother bringing up the UN, you'll only have your opponents roleplay your destruction with their supposed invincible weaponry. (In that case, smile, nod, give them their victory and move on to more sophistication as they continue to play "Risk").

The NSUN has no player controlled governing body of any sort, and therefore could not enforce anything even if people wanted it to. At least the real life UN has a governing body consisting of representatives from member nations, but on NS we don't have that. Delegates simply vote on arbitrary resolutions and that's it, whereas the real UN could at least do something if it wanted to in terms of interventions or sanctions.

NSUN is a completely impotent organization in terms of RP, which is why I (and lots of other RPers) simply don't acknowledge it as existing. To me NSUN is an empty building with the lights on, but nobody's ever inside.

OOC-->

I have to disagree with this statement by agreeing with it. The fact is that there are more nations outside the UN than inside. The fact is that the nations inside collectively agree upon its principles and can whip up a bigger coalition than any non-members can. There are also many nations who support the UN without being a specific member and they would also join on any side that appears "righteous" over the "insane" and the UN has a ready made myth of being on the side of rationality. What my colleague above seems to neglect is that since there is no over-riding governing structure he himself can potentially exploit this instead of claiming its non-existence which is like denying your neighbor's existence because you refuse to look at him. What he could do is claim to be the righteous centaur to the Prince of the UN. See Machiavelli's Prince (the Prince is above reproach and is always seemingly the most moral driven man of the kingdom but he employs a Centaur-half-man-half-beast who does the dirty work of dealing with dissent even to the point of breaking laws for the ends of serving the Prince). My colleague could claim to be this centaur, find fault in some nation who is a current UN member yet makes foolish public claims that indicates that UN inspectors are duped or drugged or whatnot and voila! We have the perfect police force to deal with such things and my colleague becomes more powerful and gets more resources etc at the expense of those who are unwise enough to publicly state a perfectly astute tactic. And my colleague doesn't even have to be a current member of the UN to do it.... He just maintains a reputation of being just and he can get away with anything justifiably.

If you are not signatory to the UN, you are not signatory to the UN.

Which makes perfect sense. Which was why when I did MT and was a member of NSUN I RPed as if I had to abide by the NSUN. Otherwise I didn't see much point in the NSUN even existing.

The NSUN has no player controlled governing body of any sort, and therefore could not enforce anything even if people wanted it to. At least the real life UN has a governing body consisting of representatives from member nations, but on NS we don't have that. Delegates simply vote on arbitrary resolutions and that's it, whereas the real UN could at least do something if it wanted to in terms of interventions or sanctions.

NSUN is a completely impotent organization in terms of RP, which is why I (and lots of other RPers) simply don't acknowledge it as existing. To me NSUN is an empty building with the lights on, but nobody's ever inside.They're in there, but apparently invisible to you. There's a fair amount of RP devoted to the workings of the NSUN and the resolutions it passes, and it often bleeds onto this and especially the NationStates forum. You say the edicts of the UN can't be enforced, yet they are, by agreement between nations. If one nation starts defying the resolutions it's agreed to uphold, the other 20,000 nations in the UN probably wouldn't like it much, and a handful of them may even try to do something about it -- even if the penalty is dodgeballs tossed from twenty paces (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=361434). (And let's not forget the countless commissions (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492478) impaneled to carry out UN business.) So far as acknowledgment of the UN is contingent upon player recognition, the UN, like any other international agreement, is only as powerless as players make it to be.

I recognize the NS United Nations ICly, but our government does realize that it is largely impotent because of it's lack of organization and hierarchal structure.The UN has many faults, sir, but lack of bureaucracy certainly isn't one of them. ;)

The NS UN is always a consideration when I RP Brutland and Norden, and RP the country within the UN, but I don't insist it on others. [Much better if they do recognize it, though. :)] Whether I RP in UN or II or NS or in my regional forum, it's still the same Brutland and Norden.

The NSUN, **Gets Major Headache** is... is... can't... think... head... pain... ahhh...

I consider the NSUN as valid. Their resolutions are part of Mexar's laws. Obviously, other nations might ignore the laws, and frankly, Mexar isn't above doing so too if it feels it's justified. But that doesn't make it legal. Also, like RL nations, Mexar will gladly claim "moral high ground" if another nation breaks UN law. Not that that will mean any more than it does in RL.

They're in there, but apparently invisible to you. There's a fair amount of RP devoted to the workings of the NSUN and the resolutions it passes, and it often bleeds onto this and especially the NationStates forum. You say the edicts of the UN can't be enforced, yet they are, by agreement between nations. If one nation starts defying the resolutions it's agreed to uphold, the other 20,000 nations in the UN probably wouldn't like it much, and a handful of them may even try to do something about it -- even if the penalty is dodgeballs tossed from twenty paces (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=361434). (And let's not forget the countless commissions (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492478) impaneled to carry out UN business.) So far as acknowledgment of the UN is contingent upon player recognition, the UN, like any other international agreement, is only as powerless as players make it to be.



I was in the NSUN for years simply to mock its existance and show just how impotent it really is, and while I was a member I committed dozens of genocides and violated pretty much every resolution in the book. What did anyone do about it, or more importantly, what could anyone do about it? Next to nothing.

You boast about 20,000 NSUN nations, but out of that how many actually RP or are any good at it? The bottom line is this, those in the NSUN who take it upon themselves to be the authority figures are essentially nothing more than vigilantes since there is no governing body to the NSUN. There is no leader, there are no cabinets, and any attempt to create one is essentially in vain since there is no in-game recognition for any of it...just like there is no real ability to screen applicants, issue sanctions, or do anything a roleplay based alliance has the liberty to do. Sure you may RP as if the NSUN functions as an "alliance", but if I were to declare war with my allies on those roleplaying so and were to win, does that mean that I destroyed the NSUN? I personally don't feel the need to recognize game players that have no effect on the RP universe, just as I feel no need to recognize a game function that has no effect on the RP universe.

You boast about 20,000 NSUN nations, but out of that how many actually RP or are any good at it? The bottom line is this, those in the NSUN who take it upon themselves to be the authority figures are essentially nothing more than vigilantes since there is no governing body to the NSUN. There is no leader, there are no cabinets, and any attempt to create one is essentially in vain since there is no in-game recognition for any of it...just like there is no real ability to screen applicants, issue sanctions, or do anything a roleplay based alliance has the liberty to do. Sure you may RP as if the NSUN functions as an "alliance", but if I were to declare war with my allies on those roleplaying so and were to win, does that mean that I destroyed the NSUN? I personally don't feel the need to recognize game players that have no effect on the RP universe, just as I feel no need to recognize a game function that has no effect on the RP universe.OK, I never said any of that. Not that players should RP as UN "authority figures," not that the UN should function as an "alliance," not that you can "destroy" the UN by defeating a coalition to enforce compliance. None of it. I was simply stating that players can roleplay the UN as having some sort of authority over their nations (even without a roleplayed bureaucracy), and they frequently do. Maybe not in II, but II is not the end-all of NS RP.

I acknowledge the NSUN in roleplay.... but I also acknowledge the existence of God, Loki, Osiris, Ahura Mazda, etc.; alternate dimensions; nations of multiple techs coexisting. in short, you can't really ask me.

I'm probably going to get yelled at for this, but honestly, I think it's a little silly to pretend the NSUN doesn't exist, in II or anywhere else in the game, for that matter. It's part of the game, and quite a few nations are members.

That being said, it cannot be denied that the NSUN, even if you acknowledge its existence, has little to no effect at all, especially upon non-members. Therefore, while I do think it's silly to just pretend the NSUN doesn't exist, I think it's perfectly acceptable to RP it as being an impotent and powerless entity - which it is for non-members, and can be even for members, if they choose to RP noncompliance with UN mandates.

OK, I never said any of that. Not that players should RP as UN "authority figures," not that the UN should function as an "alliance," not that you can "destroy" the UN by defeating a coalition to enforce compliance. None of it. I was simply stating that players can roleplay the UN as having some sort of authority over their nations (even without a roleplayed bureaucracy), and they frequently do. Maybe not in II, but II is not the end-all of NS RP.
Quite true, but consider your audience. To most of us, II is the only part of the site that matters. The rest of it could sink into the ocean and we'd merely celebrate the fact that our available bandwidth just spiked.

OK, I never said any of that. Not that players should RP as UN "authority figures," not that the UN should function as an "alliance," not that you can "destroy" the UN by defeating a coalition to enforce compliance. None of it.


You're sidestepping my point.

You stated that UN resolutions can/should be enforceable, and my whole point is that if the NSUN memberbase chooses to start projecting itself on the RP stage, then it should prepare itself for resistance and backlash, because any body of nations who decide to start forcing its standards on others will generally be met with force.

I was simply stating that players can roleplay the UN as having some sort of authority over their nations (even without a roleplayed bureaucracy), and they frequently do.

They certainly are free to do so, but in today's II there just simply aren't enough RPers who are going to RP the effects of an arbitrary organization that does nothing but pass pointless resolutions then repeal them some time later. They're going to want an organization that does something more, which is why player created alliances will always trump the NSUN and render it useless.

Maybe not in II, but II is not the end-all of NS RP.

I personally could care less about the rest of the forum and what it does.