NationStates Jolt Archive

I know I'm considered a newbie and whatnot... But seriously. When I read topics about countries being 'bad', I'm always seeing people jumping the gun, literally. No diplomacy what-so-ever is used. Just a threat to the country, something along the lines of "Do it again and we'll invade/bomb/nuke/rape your country!!!!". It is especially aggrivating when countries threaten other countries over matters that don't even involve them! They seem to think themselves the superheroes somehow, and therefore that justifies their threats.

When I joined, I expected at least some thought before action. Instead I just see action. I'm sorry if some of you don't feel this way, but my experience here is well and truly being sullied by the lack of any realism.

They usually have no need for diplomacy. Usually, nations such as ourselves are considered to be absolutely nothing by some of the larger nations, such as Automagfreek (AMF). Things like this happen, mainly if the nation in question performs an ethnic genocide of some sort.

They usually have no need for diplomacy. Usually, nations such as ourselves are considered to be absolutely nothing by some of the larger nations, such as Automagfreek (AMF). Things like this happen, mainly if the nation in question performs an ethnic genocide of some sort.


You know, it would be nice for once if you guys didn't use every single chance to praise AMF, you just feed is ego in IRC. :P

There is, unfortunately, no World Court to bring them to justice.

If we tried, I imagine it would go something like this:

"You are hereby charged with the fol—"
NUKLAR ASPLOSION

You know, it would be nice for once if you guys didn't use every single chance to praise AMF, you just feed is ego in IRC. :P

AMF is such an idiot and I hate when all these nooblets take every opportunity to praise him.


p.s. don't look at my sig, please

They usually have no need for diplomacy. Usually, nations such as ourselves are considered to be absolutely nothing by some of the larger nations, such as Automagfreek (AMF). Things like this happen, mainly if the nation in question performs an ethnic genocide of some sort.

The bigger a nation is, the more need for diplomacy. Seriously, if the real world acted the way NS does, the earth would just be a big crater.

Lulz, don't praise AMF then. Anyway, the NS Earth is giganormous, a.k.a. infinitely large, and one nuke would be equivalent to a quark in magnitude.

Thats not the point now, is it?

Lulz, don't praise AMF then. Anyway, the NS Earth is giganormous, a.k.a. infinitely large, and one nuke would be equivalent to a quark in magnitude.

I think this thread brings up an honest argument. One that I happen to agree with. Sense when have nations ever gotten involved with internal affairs....



o wait the cold war changed that...nvm

Turk-big difference. National leaders are national leaders in RL. In NS, national leaders are egotistical people who've decided to play forum games, come from various walks of life, and generally are hell-bent on destroying opposition for the sheer fun factor of it while mixing in large amounts of "boom".

Turk-big difference. National leaders are national leaders in RL. In NS, national leaders are egotistical people who've decided to play forum games, come from various walks of life, and generally are hell-bent on destroying opposition for the sheer fun factor of it while mixing in large amounts of "boom".

Furthermore, each NS national leader has to prove that he's the biggest badass-est douchebag in the pond, so usually "diplomatic" conferences or communications are eventually reduced to name calling that seems more suited to a high school student than a leader of a large nation.

Furthermore, each NS national leader has to prove that he's the biggest badass-est douchebag in the pond, so usually "diplomatic" conferences or communications are eventually reduced to name calling that seems more suited to a high school student than a leader of a large nation.

(OOC: Mainly because we are high school students.)

(OOC: Mainly because we are high school students.)

Heh, well that's true. But you'd expect people to be able to act more maturely than that.

When ever I try to settle something diplomatically, who ever I'm trying to deal with simply blows me off, so I have to act. Action is all anyone seems to respond to around here.

When ever I try to settle something diplomatically, who ever I'm trying to deal with simply blows me off, so I have to act. Action is all anyone seems to respond to around here.

That's very true. People don't seem to care as much. After all, in this case, their nation is populated by numbers. In RL, even the deaths of a few because of war would be horrible. In Iraq, thousands have died. In NS, millions die as the result of a war, but even so, in NS war is declared almost every other day. Why? Because it's just numbers.

(OOC: More on topic, I think it's possible to avoid the types of issues you bring up Turka-Sir, if you just use common sense in not only starting your RPs but also in deciding who you wish to continue that RP with. There is a sizable community within NationStates who are NOT the type who you point out, and n00kzors n00bz whenever we see them.

Ignore those without valid points, but always be ready to take constructive criticism.)

Turk-big difference. National leaders are national leaders in RL. In NS, national leaders are egotistical people who've decided to play forum games, come from various walks of life, and generally are hell-bent on destroying opposition for the sheer fun factor of it while mixing in large amounts of "boom".

Well, not me. My country's pretty much a combine of amoral businesspeople and scientists that are, quite honestly, cowardly, decadent, and greedy. Pretty much a cross between the Neimoidians and Ix, except set in MT with a Russian culture.

The problem with diplomacy in NS is that most people's diplomats are actually drunken individuals of a poor socioeconomic status, who reside in inner-city neighbourhoods and would be in sixth grade if they hadn't been expelled from elementary school.

When ever I try to settle something diplomatically, who ever I'm trying to deal with simply blows me off, so I have to act. Action is all anyone seems to respond to around here.
That happens alot. It goes both ways. When one tries diplomacy, usually it ends up failing because of that, thus war ends up happening.

Though I do agree - and I normally go by that rule, attempting to use diplomacy first and give various outs to war, especially to younger nations (due in large part simply to sheer size/power differences) before acting. Hence why normally peace resolves the majority of my issues without war.

None the less, this happens alot, rather we like it or not, as many people on here are simply looking for action and a show of "Mine is bigger than yours." As someone else stated, many on here are in high school - or college. I started in hs, as did many on here.

Well, not me. My country's pretty much a combine of amoral businesspeople and scientists that are, quite honestly, cowardly, decadent, and greedy. Pretty much a cross between the Neimoidians and Ix, except set in MT with a Russian culture.

I probaly shoulda put in "most." There are honest and good enough people in NS if you look around. On the other hand, there's a lot of us who are just psycho-aggressive. Not sure where that stems from in real life.

Generally, I only get involved if it regards a) religion, b) me, or c) a massive group of people killing each other. Bandwagons are always great, I'll admit it.

Turk-big difference. National leaders are national leaders in RL. In NS, national leaders are egotistical people who've decided to play forum games, come from various walks of life, and generally are hell-bent on destroying opposition for the sheer fun factor of it while mixing in large amounts of "boom".

I don't see why this is a Good Thing™. I never have, and perhaps never will.

I probaly shoulda put in "most." There are honest and good enough people in NS if you look around. On the other hand, there's a lot of us who are just psycho-aggressive. Not sure where that stems from in real life.

Generally, I only get involved if it regards a) religion, b) me, or c) a massive group of people killing each other. Bandwagons are always great, I'll admit it.
I've noticed, in getting to know many NS'ers OOCly, that some of the most aggressive nations are some of the coolest people to know. I think it stems from simply having power in a game that they can use, given it is a game, and that, later at night (or during the day in school/work when we have access to the computer), many of us are bored as there's not much else to do.

I know I'm considered a newbie and whatnot... But seriously. When I read topics about countries being 'bad', I'm always seeing people jumping the gun, literally. No diplomacy what-so-ever is used. Just a threat to the country, something along the lines of "Do it again and we'll invade/bomb/nuke/rape your country!!!!". It is especially aggrivating when countries threaten other countries over matters that don't even involve them! They seem to think themselves the superheroes somehow, and therefore that justifies their threats.

are you saying that nations can go to war because that would be kinda cool and would certaintly bring a whole new level to the govern your own nation. Plus it would kinda cool.

As someone else stated, many on here are in high school - or college. I started in hs, as did many on here.

Hey, I'm not just "someone else!" Don't make me declare war on you!

Yes, war is tossed around a little too much here.

are you saying that nations can go to war because that would be kinda cool and would certaintly bring a whole new level to the govern your own nation. Plus it would kinda cool.

Oh indeed. If you want to know more, feel free to send me a TG (Telegram) from your nationstates.net page.

I've noticed, in getting to know many NS'ers OOCly, that some of the most aggressive nations are some of the coolest people to know. I think it stems from simply having power in a game that they can use, given it is a game, and that, later at night (or during the day in school/work when we have access to the computer), many of us are bored as there's not much else to do.

Think you missed my point there, ViZion. I'm not implicating the power players who are generally good people. I'm implicating the noob nation that immediately jumps down the throat of every smaller guy to pop up and throws a smackdown of arsenal upon their nation.

Jeuna: It's not neccessarily a good thing. Many times, it ain't.

Yeah...they can. Plz read the International Incidents stickies, they'll give you an idea about it.

But I'd like to emphasize something before you go willy-nilly. Number 1, don't go crazy and declare on people much, much larger or without good reason. Number 2, it's NOT an in-game function. You role-play it, as in, you make up the stuff instead of the game doing it.

Hey, I'm not just "someone else!" Don't make me declare war on you!

Yes, war is tossed around a little too much here.



Oh indeed. If you want to know more, feel free to send me a TG (Telegram) from your nationstates.net page.

(OOC: Happy 1000th post.)

Think you missed my point there, ViZion. I'm not implicating the power players who are generally good people. I'm implicating the noob nation that immediately jumps down the throat of every smaller guy to pop up and throws a smackdown of arsenal upon their nation.

Jeuna: It's not neccessarily a good thing. Many times, it ain't.
Oh, gotchya. Speed reading - gotta love it. lol

As for those who instantly jump onto the smaller nations, that definately is annoying - which is, like I said, why I usually give outs - or even defend them at times, if it's more from blatant imperialism than issues like genocide or killing other nations civilians (way out of sovereignty - *cough* TS ;) lol). Especially when they jump on them OOCly, though, which really annoys me. Never got that part.

As for why people jump on them ICly, though, I think it's simply because they got the power.

I'm assuming that's what you're refering to, anyway. lol

Oh, gotchya. Speed reading - gotta love it. lol

As for those who instantly jump onto the smaller nations, that definately is annoying - which is, like I said, why I usually give outs - or even defend them at times, if it's more from blatant imperialism than issues like genocide or killing other nations civilians (way out of sovereignty - *cough* TS ;) lol). Especially when they jump on them OOCly, though, which really annoys me. Never got that part.

As for why people jump on them ICly, though, I think it's simply because they got the power.

I'm assuming that's what you're refering to, anyway. lol

*whistles innocently*

For the record, my nation has never been to war in its entire history. I have, however, been active in numerous peacekeeping missions, and have been instrumental in halting wars and conflicts before they start by the use of pre-emptive diplomacy.

Sometimes people just like for their opinions to be heard. :)



But aside from that, my nation doesn't even have a standing army. The Senate can, however, call forth for a temporary security force, one that rivals most posters' in this forum.

I have an incredibly large and powerful nation, with an equally formidable army (though it's not a standing army, it is a very powerful and efficient one when called into duty). However, my ego is checked by my lack of need to "prove myself" or to just plain be a dick to other people.

In fact, I like to create peace, not war, and consider it "mission accomplished" whenever I can get two squabbling nations to come to the table so to speak and negotiate with each other instead of blowing each other off the face of the earth.

Though it really doesn't matter because a nation in NS can recover as quickly as their creator wishes, it still matters to me because I do like for this to be as realistic as possible, and I LOVE diplomacy.

Speaking of which, if anyone ever wants to play the game DIPLOMACY, you just let me know ;) (seriously)

I probaly shoulda put in "most." There are honest and good enough people in NS if you look around. On the other hand, there's a lot of us who are just psycho-aggressive. Not sure where that stems from in real life.

Maybe it's the power to do pretty much whatever you want. Even in games like Civilization or Hearts of Iron, you can't do the variety of things that are possible in something like NS, where there really is no limit to what you can do other than technology and resource constraints.

Generally, I only get involved if it regards a) religion, b) me, or c) a massive group of people killing each other. Bandwagons are always great, I'll admit it.

I won't even get involved in it unless there's money to be made, or it's a situation I just plain can't get around.

*whistles innocently*
All in good IC fun, of course. :p

Turka, check your TG. Have a question for ya regarding our RP

Why should people use diplomacy if they know they can crush a nation in five minutes and their allies will applaud it and likely help them get better train?

NS is not supposed to be realistic as in 'like real life'. The political reality IRL is defined by there being a very limited amount of nations, most of them being dirt-poor, and this means it's easy to impose a set of rules of acceptable behavior for all.

NS has thousands of nations, most of them with US-level or better economies, and no appreciable way to establish a system of international law.

P.S. AMF is awesome.

P.S. AMF is awesome.

AMF scares the shit out of me. Actually, all of Gholgoth does, but I'd sooner surrender to him outright than even see his troops approaching my country. The others, maybe hold out for a little while, but AMF is a totally different question.

That guy is truly NS's resident Scourge of God. Not many nations can claim anywhere near that sort of power.

AMF scares the shit out of me. Actually, all of Gholgoth does, but I'd sooner surrender to him outright than even see his troops approaching my country. The others, maybe hold out for a little while, but AMF is a totally different question.

That guy is truly NS's resident Scourge of God. Not many nations can claim anywhere near that sort of power.

You must have missed something. I think it's hard to convey satire over the internet.

P.S. AMF is awesome.

<3

Also, hello.

This is the entire reason I formed the United Defense Directorate. It. with the exception of a few prominent others, is one of the few actual diplomatic defense alliances.

I'll admit I did used to be a part of the whole N00K DEM ALL!!!111 crowd. Heck, I launched nine LGM-30 Minuteman ICBM's at a nation with disastrous results and a short war crimes tribunal that fell through because CAD, my alliance, did not recognize the terms of the alliance trying me. The Whittier Pact, if memory serves. I was always alternating between Iron Fist Consumerists and Corporate Police State depending on whether or not I wanted my populace to buy things or kill them.

If you look now, you'll see the remnants of that in my Inoffenseive Centrist Democracy like an all-pervasive police force who wear full body armor and carry assault rifles as well as low rights and freedoms. The environment's crap too, for that matter. But I digress...

My point is after a year of being poofed out of existence, I returned and quickly tried a more diplomatic, less oppressive approach. Luckily, my return was just in time for the disbanding of the CAD alliance except for Doom and the region was bolstered by a ton of solid nations I was friends with. We are still alligned with Doom, but he's rarely on the forums outside of the world wars and his storefront. But our main focus is technology and diplomacy. Yes, our arms manufacturing sector is massive and weapons are our chief export, but we always try negotiations first.

The guns are really just in case anyone thinks that just because an alliance asks questions first and shoots later it is weak. Even then we only attack in retaliation for a direct attack on member nations or allies after a session of the Powers That Be to determine if it's worth it.

So in conclusion, having been one of those people, I see your point. But as fortune would have it, most nations have to listen to the UDD when we want to negotiate because we have a few 7+ billion pop nations and more in between 5 and 6, so it all works out. ;)

Oh, and shameless plug because the recruitment thread was totally ignored:
Anyone who might want to join first check out our region then TG me if interested!

You must have missed something. I think it's hard to convey satire over the internet.

Allanea's not being satirical...I'm pretty sure most people on NS have a healthy respect for AMF, even if they don't like his nation or his policies, and he has earned it by being an all-around damn good RPer. It's that simple; AMF is realistic, treats his opponents with respect, and manages to kick a whole lot of ass in the process. Allanea's right in saying the NS world is different from the real world, and for that reason the whole sphere of international relations tends to be different.

Now, relations between big nations tends to be more realistic, simply because there's no longer the force differential that allows for one-sided smackdowns.

<3

Also, hello.

http://209.85.12.232/4423/109/emo/Pwn_11.gif

Allanea's not being satirical, or at least he's not being obvious about it...I'm pretty sure most people on NS have a healthy respect for AMF, and he has earned it by being an all-around good RPer. Allanea's right in saying the NS world is different from the real world, and for that reason the whole sphere of international relations tends to be different.

Now, relations between big nations tends to be more realistic, simply because there's no longer the force differential that allows for one-sided smackdowns.

You're right, satire wasn't the word I was looking for. But I don't think it was as serious as it was just meant to be a joke at those people talking about certain large nations getting a lot of attention.

You're right, satire wasn't the word I was looking for. But I don't think it was as serious as it was just meant to be a joke at those people talking about certain large nations getting a lot of attention.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't diminish it. Most of the famous big nations have their reputations for a reason; of course, there are always the nations that will praise a bigger state as a means of bootstrapping up in the ranks.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't diminish it. Most of the famous big nations have their reputations for a reason; of course, there are always the nations that will praise a bigger state as a means of bootstrapping up in the ranks.

Which is the point that a lot of nations in here were trying to make, and a point that Allanea jokingly demonstrated, as well as Stoklomolvi.

I've tried Diplomancy. Its worked on only two occassion of the few times I've tried. I helped get some land back for a country called Order of America by selling my own island to the person that owned it. Then a month back I sold another island to Red Tide to stop him from nuking another island. So diplmancy in NS is just really bribery.

Which is the point that a lot of nations in here were trying to make, and a point that Allanea jokingly demonstrated, as well as Stoklomolvi.

Oh, yeah, I knew that. No reason not to state the fact, though.

I'd agree with Vetalia and Allanea on the larger nations/AMF argument. AMF - among others - have earned it, that's for sure. AMF simply gets so much credit because he's so well known, and is a very good example to use many times because of that and his reputation.

But back to the issue at hand - simply put, much of it I think has to do with the balance of power and a "Mine is bigger than yours" issue.

I've tried Diplomancy. Its worked on only two occassion of the few times I've tried. I helped get some land back for a country called Order of America by selling my own island to the person that owned it. Then a month back I sold another island to Red Tide to stop him from nuking another island. So diplmancy in NS is just really bribery.

Diplomacy in RL is often bribery, as well...sometimes, though, multi-sided. One could argue that every bit of diplomacy is some form of bribery or threat.

AMF ain't at all bad, but I can't say he particularly scares me, or makes me feel remotely uncomfortable. I may just be jaded with all of NS's Super-Militaristic Baby-Killing Evil Dictatorships.
(I've never RPed a war on NS, although I've seen it done plenty; that's primarily because, not having served in a military unit myself, I have no idea how things are done and little idea of strategy or tactics, to say nothing of military equipment.)

He's certainly earned his share of respect; he was a huge power even back when I started. I have to say even if the UDD were on the level of Gholgoth, I'd still have second and third thoughts before even considering fighting him.

And to Vojvodina-Nihon, agreed. That's why I did my part and went Democratic. Though admittedly when I was younger being a psychotic dictator was a lot of fun, tastes change.

I think it's because diplomacy, in most situations, is pointless in an NS universe.
Example:
Country A's leader calls Country B's leader a peepee head. Country B prepares for war. I step in and say "Calm down". Now, assuming B doesn't suddenly say "Oh, Nistolonia, you're right, let me stand down", diplomacy kicks in. In RL, I could threaten him with sanctions, offer him money or threaten to use my army.
Santions don't exist in NS unless you have several really dedicated RPers who want to keep track of the economic impact of me not trading my stuff with you. If I give your government money, who cares? It has no effect on your countries economy, because the forum and NS.net are different things. And reputation? Who cares if B attacks A for a bad reason? Really, the only people who will know about it are the ones that will read the thread, and then actually remember about it next time they interact with B. That leaves the option for Nistolonia to say "My defense budget is really big and I have lots of troops". And B will either say "Oh S*&t" or "Bring it on!"

So unless you have some good RPers, thats why.
I'll confess, there are times where I've jumped on the war bandwagon when I probably shouldn't have. I like to think they were for reasonably good reasons though.

I do remember that one time when he made an amazingly gruesome post which the mods deleted/made disappear. At any rate, I've never really come into contact with the guy, only heard stories about his "amazingness" and "awesome/leetness". I did prevent a nuclear war between the Ryou Black Islands (Hataria) and the UnitedStatesofAmerica- using diplomacy once...

I do remember that one time when he made an amazingly gruesome post which the mods deleted/made disappear. At any rate, I've never really come into contact with the guy, only heard stories about his "amazingness" and "awesome/leetness". I did prevent a nuclear war between the Ryou Black Islands (Hataria) and the UnitedStatesofAmerica- using diplomacy once...

It was called "Puritania" or something like that. The Consul of British Londinium was...killed...by the Freeks for the instigation of war between their countries in violation of AMF's previous terms. As British Londinium's closest and most powerful ally (a position I still hold, although he's pretty inactive), I had the honor of having Sevastopol wiped off the map by Crimmond, killing 5 million people and resulting in the loss of North Africa.

And I've resolved my share of civil wars in the past (and instigated them in order to profit).

The underlying theme I'm seeing is we're far from perfect. We've all been instigators at one point or another but today are diplomatic. However, we also all admit that due to the way things work on the forum, unless the people involved are really good RPers, war is the inevitable outcome to most incidents.

Eh, I really don't pay mind to the super-large nations. It's not my business, my business is just dealing with the smaller nations that go off and do stupid things. Eventually, 10 billion people is going to seem small, and nations never actually will increase their power. Basically, the weak people of today will still remain weak, and the strong will remain strong.

Eh, I really don't pay mind to the super-large nations. It's not my business, my business is just dealing with the smaller nations that go off and do stupid things. Eventually, 10 billion people is going to seem small, and nations never actually will increase their power. Basically, the weak people of today will still remain weak, and the strong will remain strong.
hehehe, why I remember the day when the first nation turned over to 1 billion. It was a HUGE event. Now, today, ~10 billion is yesterdays 1 billion. (I feel like a grandpa talking about his youthful days now)

But as time goes on, there will be more who are even weaker, and so the pecking order will continue. So while some will never be the most powerful, eventually, you will be powerful to someone.

Why should people use diplomacy if they know they can crush a nation in five minutes and their allies will applaud it and likely help them get better train?

Democratic nations, at the very least, should roleplay the political blowback of constantly dragging their people into wars and sending millions of their men and women to their deaths for apparently meaningless causes. Even if they don't roleplay their leaders being thrown out of office in general elections they should at least demonstrate some level of civil disapproval and increasing resistance from parliaments/senates/councils when it comes to appropriating funds for more offensive wars.

Eh, I really don't pay mind to the super-large nations. It's not my business, my business is just dealing with the smaller nations that go off and do stupid things. Eventually, 10 billion people is going to seem small, and nations never actually will increase their power. Basically, the weak people of today will still remain weak, and the strong will remain strong.

Not neccessarily true. Kraven Corp, an '05 nation, held a great war (both in explosions, and writing) against AMF, and nearly pulled out an underdog victory. I came in around that time, and it was, more than anything else, a proof that good RPing can overcome numbers in NS. It's all how you do your operations, not how many you do them with.

But as time goes on, there will be more who are even weaker, and so the pecking order will continue. So while some will never be the most powerful, eventually, you will be powerful to someone.

Those poor, poor, poor 2024 nations...

Yeah...I almost hope they'll reset the populations back at some point...just to keep things sane.

hehehe, why I remember the day when the first nation turned over to 1 billion. It was a HUGE event. Now, today, ~10 billion is yesterdays 1 billion. (I feel like a grandpa talking about his youthful days now)

You think that's something, I took an RL year off and kept that mentality. Coming back was a huge shock. All of my allies were bigger than me, even the ones that were smaller before, and the whole world stage on the forum shifted. My alliance essentially went from around seven active RPers to Doomingsland and then splintered shortly after my return.

But the worst part was... all my tech was incredibly out of date! :eek:
I was five billion pop nation that still used real world assault rifles...

EDIT: Was quoting ViZion's last post, then twenty more posts popped up...

But as time goes on, there will be more who are even weaker, and so the pecking order will continue. So while some will never be the most powerful, eventually, you will be powerful to someone.

In 2003, the 'Januaries' and 'Marches' looked down on the 'Junes' and 'Septembers'. Then the 2003 posters banded together to look down on the 2004 posters. The 2004 posters in turn looked down upon the 2005 posters, and so it has continued to this day. Probably one of the nations created within this past week will someday command as much respect as AMF and company, if the game stays online long enough.

In 2003, the 'Januaries' and 'Marches' looked down on the 'Junes' and 'Septembers'. Then the 2003 posters banded together to look down on the 2004 posters. The 2004 posters in turn looked down upon the 2005 posters, and so it has continued to this day. Probably one of the nations created within this past week will someday command as much respect as AMF and company, if the game stays online long enough.

For sure. Even these days, AMF is still a major player but more of a legend than the consistent shadow of "oh shit I'm screwed" that was early '06 (and likely before I got here, from what I hear). We do see him come back and kill the BLs from time to time (good times), but for the most part new nations are rising to take the omnipresent superpower role.

Well, then there's people like me. I'm an '05, but in reality I started RPing earlier this year; for my first two, I was only in General and never posted in any of the RP forums.

Really, the only problem I have with the forums is the inability to realistically RP economic warfare; my country's about as wealthy and powerful as it gets when it comes to the economic side of NS, (although bigger nations may field larger economies) but it comes at the cost of a decadent culture and weak military, which puts me at a big disadvantage when facing militarized countries.

Of course, it's also true that I've never had a chance to RP economic warfare, mainly because it's not as exciting to many people as real combat.

I always prefer using diplomacy rather than nuking. In fact, that is all I do, since my nation banned nuclear weapons. To be honest, I'm not good at leading troops (my stats are too low, and I always get beaten up), and talking is my best point.

My "talking" has personally stopped two military interventions in progress (Neoman, and Joethesandwhich). And I had more fun talking than I did fighting wars. When you fight wars, stats come in. When you are trying to compromise and cajole, then you suddenly have an advantage over other people who have lower skillsets in communication.

Maybe I could write a guide about diplomacy, but I better 'intervene' in more affairs just to be sure. And, besides, you have to make sure the person you are talking to wants a diplomatic solution. That being said, being very whiny during the Neoman conflict ("There was no evidence that genocide ever happened, there must have been a good reason, we don't want innocents to die") was just pure awesome.

I always prefer using diplomacy rather than nuking. In fact, that is all I do, since my nation banned nuclear weapons. To be honest, I'm not good at leading troops, and talking is my best point.


Same here. I'm much better at getting people to give me what I want by offering them a lot for it than trying to take it by force.

There is, unfortunately, no World Court to bring them to justice.

If we tried, I imagine it would go something like this:

"You are hereby charged with the fol—"
NUKLAR ASPLOSION

Made me laugh so hard.

True, there are a lot of countries that simply 'declare war' using flimsy as hell reasons to do so. They suck. Then again, when people don't respond to diplomicy (ICly blow us off) then military action is warrented (in certain cases) if (OCly blown off) it is usually a cue to leave the RP...

I know I'm considered a newbie and whatnot... But seriously. When I read topics about countries being 'bad', I'm always seeing people jumping the gun, literally. No diplomacy what-so-ever is used. Just a threat to the country, something along the lines of "Do it again and we'll invade/bomb/nuke/rape your country!!!!". It is especially aggrivating when countries threaten other countries over matters that don't even involve them! They seem to think themselves the superheroes somehow, and therefore that justifies their threats.

When I joined, I expected at least some thought before action. Instead I just see action. I'm sorry if some of you don't feel this way, but my experience here is well and truly being sullied by the lack of any realism.

[OOC: Yeah, welcome to II. That's why I, at least, keep my RP's closed and only RP with a select group of folks, all of whom I know can RP well and have a lot of experience. Character RP's and whatnot.]

^
Thats good advice, regardless of what you're doing. Otherwise the RP n00bs with 5 billion people and 90% defense budgets will declare WAR.

^
Thats good advice, regardless of what you're doing. Otherwise the RP n00bs with 5 billion people and 90% defense budgets will declare WAR.

Yeah, that's what always bugs me. Very few people realistically RP the economic effects of huge military expenditures, when they should. If you're spending a huge share of your economy on the military, it's going to suffer and it will eventually collapse if you pass a threshold.

Yeah, I'm trying to cut mine down from its ridiculous 42% (Ah, the folly of youth) to something more sane. Though, I'll admit, there's the thrill of saying "My nation has 25 trillion dollars in its armed forces..."
Ah well. C'est la vie, n'est pas?

Why should people use diplomacy if they know they can crush a nation in five minutes and their allies will applaud it and likely help them get better train?

NS is not supposed to be realistic as in 'like real life'. The political reality IRL is defined by there being a very limited amount of nations, most of them being dirt-poor, and this means it's easy to impose a set of rules of acceptable behavior for all.

NS has thousands of nations, most of them with US-level or better economies, and no appreciable way to establish a system of international law.

Perhaps, then, it is time we started working these things out.

How? I do not know. Discourse couldn't hurt, for a start.

You think that's something, I took an RL year off and kept that mentality. Coming back was a huge shock. All of my allies were bigger than me, even the ones that were smaller before, and the whole world stage on the forum shifted. My alliance essentially went from around seven active RPers to Doomingsland and then splintered shortly after my return.

But the worst part was... all my tech was incredibly out of date! :eek:
I was five billion pop nation that still used real world assault rifles...

EDIT: Was quoting ViZion's last post, then twenty more posts popped up...
lol gotta love it.

I remember when Gens Romae attempted to throw its weight around by declaring itself to have an empire consisting of actual nations, and then boasted its defence budget to everybody. Then, AMF appeared and pummelled him into the ground OOCly with his 146 trillion, I believe, military budget. It's in Kampfer's siggy.

I know I'm considered a newbie and whatnot... But seriously. When I read topics about countries being 'bad', I'm always seeing people jumping the gun, literally.

Pushes red button repeatedly
*After a while of waiting to see if anything happens. Nothing Happens*
Again, starts pushing the red button repeatedly
"Sir, please stop pushing that button."
"Why, what does it do?"
"You don't want to know, Sir".
"Yes, I do"
"Trust me you don't, Sir"
[With a annoyed look on the King's face]"Either you tell me or I'll find myself a new General".
"Very well, Sir. Everytime you push that button it creates a new noob in nationstates, the likes of which it has never before encountered."
"My God the Horror!"
"Yes, Sir". :D

In all seriousness though, you'll be happy to know that my nation and it's people have never, literally or figuratively, jumped the gun. Throughout all the years of it's existence, not once have the people of United Earthlings engaged in armed conflict with another country or it's people. With it's officially position of neutrality and adherence to it's isolationism-the people of United Earthlings have known only peace for well over 300 years and counting.

So, see there are some of us out there that have learned the true art of diplomacy and that our nations influence can be felt in other ways besides through war.

Lol funny thing is when you're a big country and you do something bad, people issue statements of condemnation.

Take Dyelli Beybi declaring it is creating highly addictive recreational drugs to try to market to Under 5s... I recieved lots of condemnation, but no declarations of war. Now were a 2007 Nation to try that, what do you think would happen?

"elite Marines are gonna blow your drugs f4ctory up n00b!!!!!111"

It's most vexing, when you are my size you need to do something beyond evil to provoke war. I imagine were I to announce hunting season on pregant mothers I would provoke sanctions at most.

It seems the jumping on little Nations who are 'bad' is mostly done to allow medium sized Nations to swing their armies around a bit. I like to stir the pot a bit as Dyelli Beybi. Makes things a bit more interesting when we come in on the side of the 'bad guys'.

It's all a matter of perspective. For instance, most people would consider dictatorships and governments essentially run by mercenary forces (cough cough Greal, Kampfers, Mal, Stok, etc.) evil and to be destroyed. I would personally support them.

It's all a matter of perspective. For instance, most people would consider dictatorships and governments essentially run by mercenary forces (cough cough Greal, Kampfers, Mal, Stok, etc.) evil and to be destroyed. I would personally support them.

And so would I, as one of the biggest financial backers of mercenary groups.

Yeah, I'm trying to cut mine down from its ridiculous 42% (Ah, the folly of youth) to something more sane. Though, I'll admit, there's the thrill of saying "My nation has 25 trillion dollars in its armed forces..." Ah well. C'est la vie, n'est pas?

Yeah, I no longer recognize the NSTracker data, mainly because there's a lot of detritus from my pre-RP days. I RP a flat 15% tax and a GDP of $500 trillion, with a cap on military expenditures of 5% (which is roughly $25 trillion, actually).

However, I also RP lower quality; not lower tech, we're pretty much cutting edge there...it's just that our people don't like fighting. Too much work and not enough luxury.

While you bring up a good point, does negotiation ever work in the real world? I mean think about it, the Cold War wasn't ended through negotiation or diplomacy it was ended through small controlled wars and the massive buildups those led to. Diplomacy didn't (and doubtfully could have even if it continued until today as we've seen evidenced by a significantly more democratic nation by the name of Iran) work in Iraq, only action. Will diplomacy work in Malasyia? Doubtful, only action. Hell even Ghandi didn't solve things through diplomacy, he marched on British positions and used the violence on his own people as propaganda.... my point is, do words actually solve anything? No, only action.

Pushes red button repeatedly
*After a while of waiting to see if anything happens. Nothing Happens*
Again, starts pushing the red button repeatedly
"Sir, please stop pushing that button."
"Why, what does it do?"
"You don't want to know, Sir".
"Yes, I do"
"Trust me you don't, Sir"
[With a annoyed look on the King's face]"Either you tell me or I'll find myself a new General".
"Very well, Sir. Everytime you push that button it creates a new noob in nationstates, the likes of which it has never before encountered."
"My God the Horror!"
"Yes, Sir". :D
hahahaha

While you bring up a good point, does negotiation ever work in the real world? I mean think about it, the Cold War wasn't ended through negotiation or diplomacy it was ended through small controlled wars and the massive buildups those led to. Diplomacy didn't (and doubtfully could have even if it continued until today as we've seen evidenced by a significantly more democratic nation by the name of Iran) work in Iraq, only action. Will diplomacy work in Malasyia? Doubtful, only action. Hell even Ghandi didn't solve things through diplomacy, he marched on British positions and used the violence on his own people as propaganda.... my point is, do words actually solve anything? No, only action.

While I would be closer to agreeing with your position than the "war never solves anything" crowd, I can't agree with that, just because it is so absolute. Diplomacy certainly has its place, but it is ultimately useless if nothing backs it up. Good point on Ghandi, though.

Real World Governments use diplomacy though.

The reason they do not storm off and liberate every dictatorship is because there are costs inherant in doing so. Costs that people rarely if ever bother to RP during their wars on Nation States.

Real World Governments use diplomacy though.

The reason they do not storm off and liberate every dictatorship is because there are costs inherant in doing so. Costs that people rarely if ever bother to RP during their wars on Nation States.

And, unfortunately, many of my countrymen think that it would be most effective to use diplomacy if we were to give up any weight behind it first. There are those who wish to give diplomacy its proper place, which is great, and those who are irrationally anti-war idealists, whom I lack the stomach to put up with for too long.

I completely agree with you on this second point--few properly keep track of the true costs of their wars (I am fighting five random wars totally unrelated to this one, but I'm gonna invade you wit half mah armees. ZOMG); the whole matter of logistics and economy, which I find quite interesting, are typically all but completely ignored.

I rather like economics, I have a particular passion for theories related to worker productivity lol... I could bore most of NS to death talking about that :P

On top of those though there are politican consequences to wars. Unless there is a clear and indisputable reason for a war, populations don't tend to react kindly to high casualty rates. The Dyellian military does far more posturing than actual fighting, mostly because the Government realises the population won't react well if large numbers of troops start to get killed.

On top of those though there are politican consequences to wars. Unless there is a clear and indisputable reason for a war, populations don't tend to react kindly to high casualty rates. The Dyellian military does far more posturing than actual fighting, mostly because the Government realises the population won't react well if large numbers of troops start to get killed.

Generally, if we can't bribe or otherwise negotiate a favorable settlement, we're pretty likely to give up if it looks like we have no chance of winning. Outside of economic and scientific competition, our country's pretty spineless. Definitely earns the contempt of the militarized states as an example of decadence and weakness...but it's so worth it. Few other countries can pull off lavish extravagance like we can, but those that do usually win our admiration and respect.

To all those who believe that they must somehow become "World Policemen" and interevene at every single turn against every nation committing a human right abuse...

The NationStates world is huge! You can't stop all human right abuses. If you are going to interevene in every single human right abuse, you will go bankrupt. Don't even mention AMF, he will go bankrupt too. He'll be the most succesful, if by succesful, you mean US-success-in-Iraq success.

And in the course of stopping human right abuses, one could argue that they are committing human right abuses as well (nuking entire cities to stop an ethnic group from being killed off). So, if you have to go fight a war, fight it for something that actually advances your national interest (like oil, or a chance to spread your puppet government)...something that will actually help you out in the long term...not because of 'genocide'! Sheesh.

To all those who believe that they must somehow become "World Policemen" and interevene at every single turn against every nation committing a human right abuse...

The NationStates world is huge! You can't stop all human right abuses. If you are going to interevene in every single human right abuse, you will go bankrupt. Don't even mention AMF, he will go bankrupt too. He'll be the most succesful, if by succesful, you mean US-success-in-Iraq success.

And in the course of stopping human right abuses, one could argue that they are committing human right abuses as well (nuking entire cities to stop an ethnic group from being killed off). So, if you have to go fight a war, fight it for something that actually advances your national interest (like oil, or a chance to spread your puppet government)...something that will actually help you out in the long term...not because of 'genocide'! Sheesh.

Saying that people shouldn't bother to intervene in human rights abuses because they can't intervene in them all is essentially the same reasoning for preventing anyone from resource wars (you can't get all the resources) wars for territory (you can't get all the territory) or committing the human rights abuses themselves (you can't kill all of an ethnic/religious group, as long as it's a RL one). Some nations are RPed as idealistic. Whether it's sensible or not, is there something wrong with that?

Besides, I'm not sure I ever saw someone use nukes to stop human rights abuses unless they were either a) not particularly concerned about human rights anyway or b) a n00b.

To get back on topic, I agree to an extent, but it's not so bad when taken in context of the NS world, where it is often (well, sometimes) realistic to go around declaring war at the drop of a hat. Mostly, because people have obscenely huge armies compared to puny ones, and lCly trigger-happy/idealistic/naive leaders. Really, when you have (nation which puts itself forward as a shining beacon of human rights) + (large army) + (human rights abuses x small nation with small army) + (idealistic/trigger-happy etc. leader) it's relatively realistic to expect that to = war. It's just an unfortunate coincidence that these events occur together so often. I find the problem is not so much the endless declarations of war as the fact that not enough people RP the consequences. I haven't noticed it, but I'm probably guilty of it.

They usually have no need for diplomacy. Usually, nations such as ourselves are considered to be absolutely nothing by some of the larger nations, such as Automagfreek (AMF). Things like this happen, mainly if the nation in question performs an ethnic genocide of some sort.

вы русский? =)

The real fun of NS is the war. But it's not just jumping to throwing nukes around, it's the complete breakdown of the diplomatic process. Yea diplomacy happens, and a lot, but no one notices it as diplomacy because it breaks down to war. It's that process, the breaking down into war, that makes it fun.

Although I would like to see more players work their nations as working towards their national interests. Too many people jump on others for doing "bad things" in general, with no reason why the people, the government, nation, or whatever would do it. Those who crush some tinpot dictatorship because it's in their interests (economical, political, cultural, religious) at least have a reason. And a reason is what seems to be lacking more and more.

Man, I go away for 9 hours, and this topic goes to over 7 pages...

I remember when Gens Romae attempted to throw its weight around by declaring itself to have an empire consisting of actual nations, and then boasted its defence budget to everybody. Then, AMF appeared and pummelled him into the ground OOCly with his 146 trillion, I believe, military budget. It's in Kampfer's siggy.

Haha, yes, I remember that too. "AMF no scaredy of CA."

The NationStates world is huge! You can't stop all human right abuses. If you are going to interevene in every single human right abuse, you will go bankrupt. Don't even mention AMF, he will go bankrupt too. He'll be the most succesful, if by succesful, you mean US-success-in-Iraq success.


OOC: Considering I'm the one doing the human rights abuses most of the time.... ;)

OOC: Considering I'm the one doing the human rights abuses most of the time.... ;)

(OOC: True, but I didn't mean it as a slight towards USA.

What I was really trying to state is that while AMF may be the most powerful nation, there are limits that cannot be crossed. I personally believe in the "wank=power" theory, after all, and I think eventually, you can't wank your way into attacking every tinpot dictator without losing at least some crediblity.

Prehaps the Cold War would be the most enviable situation considering the anarchy in NS. In the Cold War, you either ally with the USSR and the USA. Sure, there are proxy wars that occur all the time, but at least there were no nukes being fired. It isn't peace, but it's "stablity." In NS, there is no such "stablity", so every nation for itself.)

However that's where nations come together in alliances who are all too ready to accept them and thus you get the World War I powder keg scenario that is most good RP's. Back in my day (pre-deletion) I've seen some of the best-written wars start for some of the dumbest reasons and dozens of nations will jump in because they were alligned with of the two antagonists.

While having an alliance of world policemen is easier to do and therefore is the usual route, it only depletes the funds more slowly.

If I ever use diplomacy, its because its more expediant than force. Likewise if I choose force, and in my case force tends to be the more expediant thing 90% of the time, generally because my government finds the concept of comprimising to be below them. For me, diplomacy is just another tool of war, one that I generally find more boring...killing people and breaking things is far more entertaining than talking.

вы русский? =)

Nah, 我是中国人，但是我不是俄勒斯人。 I just have some sort of fascination for Russia, Germany, China, and the UK.