NationStates Jolt Archive

From the desk of the Secretary of the Prime Minster:

For many years, we have seen countries divided, populations massacred and hate crimes committed in the names of the typical monotheistic religions.

The Colony of Vampyrum is proud to lead the way into a more peaceful nation by outlawing the more hard lined religions affecting our Colony and the rest of the world.

All over the world, it seems we have grown accustomed to allowing people to believe what they want, however strange or outlandish. These religions have grown in power and have begun to seriously damage the world in ways not seen since the middle ages.

"Religions should be open to criticism. We should open all the worlds religions to scrutiny. People have differing opinions on every from Films to Politics, and these subjects have always been open to debate, weather or not that person feels in some way offended by other peoples ideas on the subject. So I believe it is time for religions to get their fair share"
- Head of Research, the state University of Zotz.

From today, the Prime Minster of Vampyrum bans all religions within it's nations borders except ones from the following list:

Laveyan Satanism
Taoism
Buddhism

The people of Stoklomolvi have openly detested this blatant discrimination against certain religions and the favouring of others.

From the desk of the secretary of the Prime Minster:

The Prime Minster of the Colony of Vampyrum will allow other religions to re-opens their places of worship if it can be proved that they actually do more good than evil in the world.

The religions outlined in the dossier before were hand picked from a list of many world religions. These have had little or no negative impact on the world and their usual tenants of "faith" are hardly offensive.

**OFFICIAL STATEMENT**

Given the blatant intolerance of the current government of the Colony of Vampyrum the Commonwealth Parliament has voted by a margin of 846 to 153with 1 not present to add that nation to the Black List. As of 12:01 AM, December 14th, 2007 the following restrictions are put into place:


All travel between Vampyrum and Tolvan is hereby suspended
All Tolvanic citizens are required to leave Vampyrumian soil within 48 hours or face prosecution for violation of the Shaw-Kenji Act of 1988
All Vampyrumian citizens have 48 hours to leave Tolvanic soil or they will be arrrested and charged with violating the Immigration Regulation Act of 1992 and could face a sentence of up to 5 years in prison
Anyone holding dual citizenship is required to formally renounce one or the other and must depart from the soil of the renounced nation within 6 days
All trade between Vampyrum and Tolvan is ended
All Tolvanic businesses operating on Vampyrumuian soil have 24 days to divest their assets fully of face prosecution
All Vampyrumian businesses operating on Tolvanic soil have 24 days to divest their assets fully or they will be seized and liquidated


Any interference in the enforcement of this legislation could be considered an act of war and responded to accordingly.

Tyler Hutchins
Prime Minister

Commonwealth of Tolvan

Perhaps you will allow our religion to be on your acceptable list, see here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=543917)and you will see that we can be quite beneficial for your soldiers!

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

The Colony of Vampyrum regrets the action taken by The Commonwealth of Tolvan.

Currently, unarmed military transport ships and airplanes are requesting clearance to evacuate any citizens residing on Tolvan soil.

The Colony of Vampyrum will comply with the "requests" made by the government of Tolvan. However, the current government of Vampyrum will not forcefully evict any citizens of any other nations on their soil, they are free to stay if they wish.

Perhaps you will allow our religion to be on your acceptable list, see here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=543917)and you will see that we can be quite beneficial for your soldiers!


From the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

The Colony of Vampyrum has considered your proposal and has agreed to allow a small retinue of your priests and or followers to set up a small building suitable for worship near the main military barracks.

However, Vampyrum law still dictates that no person is allowed to be born into a religion. And that the person must choose the religion of his/her choice (if they choose to belong to a religion) at the age of 18.

From the IOTC:

The Independant Orthodox Terranist Church would like to be considered for reinstatement. Unlike other forms of Terranism, we do not violently oppose the destruction of the Earth, Holy Terra. We instead educate others on how to live more eco friendly lives.

From the RCoT:

The Reformed Church of Terra would like to have our religion unbanned in your nation. Unlike Imperial Terranism, we feel that violent opposition is more harmful to Terra. Instead, we throw lavished parties, and enjoy the bounty of Holy Terra and Man.

OOC: IOTC is the sensible, if annoying eco-church. RCoT is the debauched fun one, with the cool orgies. Both are non-theistic, and mostly people join them because they are hippies, or want to go to cool parties.

From the desk of the Secretory of the Prime Minister:

To: The Independent Orthodox Terranist Church, The Reformed Church of Terra

The Prime Minister of the colony of Vampyrum will allow one of your churches to open on the outskirts of the city, near the main forest of our beloved Vampyrum Bat, the national animal of the Colony of Vampyrum.

Vampyrum law states that you are not allowed to be born into a religion, so a person would only be allowed to join your church at the age of 18.

The re-opening of your church is on a trail bases.

(OOC) - Humm, why are some of my replys awaiting a check from a mod and some aren't?

OOC: because you are new. After 10 posts, it automatically stops.

BTW, as an atheist, I totally get why you are banning religions. However, intolerance like this is frowned upon, even though there are way more stupid nations that do a lot worse.

Also, I suggest you tax churches, just like any other business.

As President of SilentScope003, and an Atheist myself, I am upset that Atheism (the belief that there is no God), one of the greatest religions in the world that will pave the way for global peace and prosperity, is banned.

Unlike other religions, we do not call for violence or mayhem or mischeif. We just claim that there is no God. We do no rites. We do no sacrifies. We just say there is no God and go about our daily life, happy in the knowledge that when we die, that's it.

I please ask you to reinstiate Atheism onto your Accepted Religions list. Please. For the sake of Atheists.

EDIT:

Offical Notice From The Board of SilentScope003's Refugee Nation:

If you believe in a banned religion in Vampyrum, don't go and convert or hide your faith! Proclaim your faith out in the open in SilentScope003 and keep your chances to reaching a better Afterlife wide open. Just go and contact us at 1-800-REFUGEE and we'll be happy to take you in, provided you are willing to provide documenation and proof after all.

We accept people of all races and all creeds, except blondes. Blondes, you have to stay out. I'm sorry, government policy.

While ViZion disagrees with this stance, it is your right to do so. Just make sure you do not go off the deep end and begin to kill those who believe in a religion that is not approved of.

Ministry of State

We are gravely concerned that you would be willing to imperil your economic functioning by banning indigenous Vetalian practice. To those of us who adhere to this country's traditional beliefs, trade and commerce are spiritual practices and our prosperity in this world directly influences the hereafter. By banning our religious system, you effectively criminalize our country's economic involvement in your country.

This, of course, will harm you far more than it harms us, but in the interest of continued prosperity we strongly urge you revoke or adjust this decree. Other religions can remain banned, as they are not our concern, but ours has many practical applications that will be lost if this ban is upheld.

BTW, as an atheist, I totally get why you are banning religions. However, intolerance like this is frowned upon, even though there are way more stupid nations that do a lot worse.

Also, I suggest you tax churches, just like any other business.

From the Desk of the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

The view of the Main University of Zotz and the Government is that atheism, while a view on the existence of gods and or the afterlife, can not be considered a religion as it has no places of worship, no standard belief structure.

Therefore, the Government of The Colony of Vampyrum reasons that, atheism is not banned and people can fully claim themselves to be atheists.
Secondly, all churches that are allowed within the nation are hereby taxed 20% of all their income.

Secondly, the banning of certain religions does seem to be a rather drastic thing to do. However, the current state of religions in the world, from terrorists to brainwashing Christian child camps needs to be tackled in a drastic way.

FROM THE THRONE OF THE SULTAN:

The Islamic Sultanate of Plotadonia, under the leadership of HM Nirus III and the guidance of the Supreme Islamic Democratic Congress, declares this grotesque intolerance a crime against the greater nation of Islam, and will support all rebel groups in opposition to the Vampyrum government with monetary aid and political acknowledgement as more legitimate rulers for this country.

The Islamic Sultanate of Plotadonia also cease to acknowledge this government as a legitimate sovereign authority for the time being, and closes its borders to it's national leaders. Vampyrum's Embassy in Kaereia, the capitol, may be maintained however, and telegrams will be received, so we will still be able to speak. But his majesty does not wish to see the face of Vamnpyrums Prime Minister until this practice is removed, and he is not worthy of our majesty.

If the government promptly changes it's ways, this policy can be cut at any moment. Otherwise, retaliation and material aid will intensify, and it will be one cold winter for the Colony. A carrier group from Plotadonia's Navy Ports may be sent to provide air support for any civil rebellions that results, though our two carriers are as of yet still in port.

Graciously,

HM Nirus III
Lord High Messenger R.S. Cumpvan
Lord High Admiral A.K. Asmuth
HM Nirus III,

While we will not intervene in your two nations quarrel, we do highly suggest you not pledge such aid, as there will likely be many nations who would love to take a nation such as your down - one that talks the talk, but can only do such.

It is for your own safety that you do not support an uprising, or make threats of anything such as that.

President Tanner Kilo

From the Desk of the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

To: The Islamic Sultanate of Plotadonia.

Any military action or funding of military action, will result in the ceasing and liquidation of any businesses of Plotadonia within The Colony of Vampyrum.

Secondly, it is this sort of barbarous action that The Colony of Vampyrum wishes to draw the worlds attention to.
The Colony of Vampyrum does not wish war, in it's homelands or in the lands of any other nation.
Countries controlled by a religious ideal are quick to deal out holy war when another country does something they do not agree with.

To: Vetalia

The actions of this Government are not intended to hurt or in any way cripple your overseas businesses.
The Government is prepared to open talks with your representatives on how this may be avoided.

The view of the Main University of Zotz and the Government is that atheism, while a view on the existence of gods and or the afterlife, can not be considered a religion as it has no places of worship, no standard belief structure.

"...Wait, what?

Atheism SO got a standard belief structure. You gotta not believe in God. You gotta not believe God created the World in seven days. For crying out loud, can you see an Atheist praying in a Church? No, that would be dumb.

And many Atheists congerate in the place of worship known as the College and the Science Labs. So, it is so a religion. We are upset about this twisting of definitions in denying Atheism the holy title of 'religion'.

Oh wait, you are allowing Atheism. Oh well, never mind then."---President of SilentScope003

From the desk of Dr. Aristakis Nikolatos, Member of the Kahanistanian Senate and Leader of the Anti-Catholic Party

On behalf of the Anti-Catholic Party, I must congratulate you for driving these vile human beings from your precious soil. Catholics are a scourge upon humanity and we have fought three wars with these freedom-hating, Jew-hating, woman-hating purveyors of human misery.

However, I must criticise the expulsion of Greek Orthodox Christians such as myself, or Jews, or Muslims, or other religions that oppose the barbarous Catholics and have suffered equally at their evil hands.

Signed,
Dr. Aristakis Nikolatos,
Member of the Senate

---

Official Statement of the Free Republic of Kahanistan

The Government of Kahanistan condemns this blatant suppression of freedom of religion. Religion is not evil; only people are.

We also condemn the remarks of Senator Nikolatos. While he has a point about religious expression, his views toward Catholics, born of the Doomani Wars, are not representative of the mainstream in Kahanistan.

Signed,
Dr. Khalid bin Abdullah al-Omari,
President of Kahanistan

Official Government Message

As a mostly atheist nation, (91% of population), we understand your reasons for wishing to ban religion. We do not, however, condone the banning of religions, except in the case that, they either prove themselves to be violent or are money scams or are a danger to the public. Though we may not all believe in a higher power or life after death, there are some that do. We must allow them the freedom to believe in what they wish. Is this really harmful. We regret to inform you that, if the freedom to practice religion is not reinstated, we will be forced to cut all trade with you.

From the desk of the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

To: All Nations.

The Government of The Colony of Vampyrum will be willing to re-instate all religious beliefs. However, the following new draft laws will be put in place.

1: A religion will be run as a non profit organization, any profit made after tax will be donated to a random charity each month.
2: Any religion within the Nation will be charged 35% tax on all incoming money, land or any other taxable resource.
3: Any religion that preaches hatred to wards any persons of any other religion, cast, creed will be dissolved and it's assets taken.
3b: Any priest of any religion that is found to be preaching hatred will be imprisoned for a minimum of 15 years.
3c: Any religion or group connected to the religion that engages in unlawful activities will have their religion dissolved.
4: Religions will have no say in the running of the country.
5: Anyone wishing to join a religion must be 18 years of age before they are allowed to join said chosen religion.
6: No persons will be allowed to be born into a religion. No camps for children will be allowed if they preach any sort of religious message.

From the desk of the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

To: All Nations.

The Government of The Colony of Vampyrum will be willing to re-instate all religious beliefs. However, the following new draft laws will be put in place.

1: A religion will be run as a non profit organization, any profit made after tax will be donated to a random charity each month.
2: Any religion within the Nation will be charged 35% tax on all incoming money, land or any other taxable resource.
3: Any religion that preaches hatred to wards any persons of any other religion, cast, creed will be dissolved and it's assets taken.
3b: Any priest of any religion that is found to be preaching hatred will be imprisoned for a minimum of 15 years.
3c: Any religion or group connected to the religion that engages in unlawful activities will have their religion dissolved.
4: Religions will have no say in the running of the country.
5: Anyone wishing to join a religion must be 18 years of age before they are allowed to join said chosen religion.
6: No persons will be allowed to be born into a religion. No camps for children will be allowed if they preach any sort of religious message.
While we are glad to hear that all religions will be treated the same way by your government, we are quite curious to know what the point of #5 and #6 are. Also, we are curious to know if any of your civilians, while in ViZion, would be allowed to attend church camps.

President Kilo

From the desk of the seceratry of the Prime Minister:

The main reasons people must be 18 before being inducted into a church is to stop religion being imposed on children. The goverment feels that faith should be chosen and not taught.

Secondly, the law only applies to citizens withhin the country.

From the Desk of the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

To: The Islamic Sultanate of Plotadonia.

Any military action or funding of military action, will result in the ceasing and liquidation of any businesses of Plotadonia within The Colony of Vampyrum.

Secondly, it is this sort of barbarous action that The Colony of Vampyrum wishes to draw the worlds attention to.
The Colony of Vampyrum does not wish war, in it's homelands or in the lands of any other nation.
Countries controlled by a religious ideal are quick to deal out holy war when another country does something they do not agree with.

To: Vetalia

The actions of this Government are not intended to hurt or in any way cripple your overseas businesses.
The Government is prepared to open talks with your representatives on how this may be avoided.

To: Vampryum

Although millitary action has been suspended due to a wide outcry from peace protesters in Plotadonia and an urge from HM Nirus III to please the Plotadonian People, Plotadonia is voluntarilly doing what your government threatened to do, calling all Plotadonian Investment and Manufacturing out of Vampyrum and barring all trade until the 35% tax on religious assets is lifted.

We would also like to say that it is not us but Vampyrum that is draining it's
people of their civil rights and hampering their road to salvation. Lives are only in the hands of Allah, and what comes after death is more important then conditions before it.

From A Shady Missonary:

"Vampyrum, I hate you.

But, your actions just caused me to make a rousing speech arguing against the evils of atheism, and actually got some new converts, by sterotyping you guys as regular atheists. So, since you did me a favor, I'm going to do you a favor.

I don't really think compromise is going to work. I'm a Terranist in SilentScope003, so when I say compromise isn't going to work, it's not going to work, you see?

I mean, honestly, the whole world is composed of loons. They are composed of left-wing loons, right-wing loons, centirst loons, peguins, vampires, senitent toasters...you name it, they got it. Likely enough, I'm a loon. Likely enough, you're a loon. We're all insane and live an asylum run by Max Barry. The point being, someone WILL be offended.

And due to the fact that many nationstates have billions of people, that someone who will be offended will likely enough smash you into itty bitty pieces.

You done something rogue, banning religions. That brought you international attention but then you fear getting steamrolled. And then, you, you backed down, making you appear weak...and useless.

You got national soverigntiy for a reason! You didn't even commit genocide. Honestly, you got yourself an open and shut case. If any religious fool seeks to invade you, you got yourself an army of National Sovergintists willing to defend you.

Don't compromise. Stand your ground. Stand for your beliefs. If you just go and surrender to religious people like me, then you would be seen as a coward, easily pushed around. Better that, if we have to fight, religious preists versus atheists, that we fight in a fair and honorable duel where the best man may win."

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

The stance of the Government is still that religions are not as good for the world as their followers think.

However, the Government can not commit to an action that will put it's Citizens in harms way.

FROM: President Harry Miste of Mistetopia
TO: The Leader of Vampyrum

We find your laws objectionable. From here on, any and all ties to Mistetopia and Vampyrum will be cut off. Any exports and imports from either country to another will be eliminated until you abolish your insane laws.

President Harry Miste

From the desk of the seceratry of the Prime Minister:

The main reasons people must be 18 before being inducted into a church is to stop religion being imposed on children. The goverment feels that faith should be chosen and not taught.

Secondly, the law only applies to citizens withhin the country.
Just to clarify, if your citizens, on vacation in ViZion, were to attend a church camp here, they would be allowed to, yes?

President Kilo

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

The laws stated in the white paper above are the final laws of The Colony of Vampyrum. These laws are levied on the institutions themselves rather than the followers of the religions.

The government will not back down further from any international pressure.

Just to clarify, if your citizens, on vacation in ViZion, were to attend a church camp here, they would be allowed to, yes?

President Kilo

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister.

All thought this may be used as a loophole in the countries law. The Government of The Colony of Vampyrum can not, and will not impose it's laws on another country. So yes, in effect, people are allowed to visit a camp in your country.

However, when they come back to this country, they will not be subjected to any religious influences until the age of 18.

"We urge Vampyrum to eradicate religion once and for all within its borders."

--The Elders of Zion

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

To: All nations

The Government of The Colony of Vampyrum has, after much international pressure, re-instated all religions under the new laws that were proposed this morning.

1: A religion will be run as a non profit organization, any profit made after tax will be donated to a random charity each month.
2: Any religion within the Nation will be charged 35% tax on all incoming money, land or any other taxable resource.
3: Any religion that preaches hatred to wards any persons of any other religion, cast, creed will be dissolved and it's assets taken.
3b: Any priest of any religion that is found to be preaching hatred will be imprisoned for a minimum of 15 years.
3c: Any religion or group connected to the religion that engages in unlawful activities will have their religion dissolved.
4: Religions will have no say in the running of the country.
5: Anyone wishing to join a religion must be 18 years of age before they are allowed to join said chosen religion.
6: No persons will be allowed to be born into a religion. No camps for children will be allowed if they preach any sort of religious message.

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister.

All thought this may be used as a loophole in the countries law. The Government of The Colony of Vampyrum can not, and will not impose it's laws on another country. So yes, in effect, people are allowed to visit a camp in your country.

However, when they come back to this country, they will not be subjected to any religious influences until the age of 18.
Thank you for clarifying this.

President Kilo

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

The Colony of Vampyrum has considered your proposal and has agreed to allow a small retinue of your priests and or followers to set up a small building suitable for worship near the main military barracks.

However, Vampyrum law still dictates that no person is allowed to be born into a religion. And that the person must choose the religion of his/her choice (if they choose to belong to a religion) at the age of 18.

We can work with these restrictions even if it means that your military will get less benefits from it. See if we start a martial arts training program at 3 years of age, by the time he is of age to enter your military, he will already know small unit tactics, have at least one black belt in one of the martial arts styles, will know how to use modern firearms and have a love for battle when it is needed and know when to walk away when battle is not needed.

So we have no problems in following your guidelines, we only allow you to see an alternative that perhaps in your wisdom you may wish to modify.

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister:

To: All nations

The Government of The Colony of Vampyrum has, after much international pressure, re-instated all religions under the new laws that were proposed this morning.

1: A religion will be run as a non profit organization, any profit made after tax will be donated to a random charity each month.
2: Any religion within the Nation will be charged 35% tax on all incoming money, land or any other taxable resource.
3: Any religion that preaches hatred to wards any persons of any other religion, cast, creed will be dissolved and it's assets taken.
3b: Any priest of any religion that is found to be preaching hatred will be imprisoned for a minimum of 15 years.
3c: Any religion or group connected to the religion that engages in unlawful activities will have their religion dissolved.
4: Religions will have no say in the running of the country.
5: Anyone wishing to join a religion must be 18 years of age before they are allowed to join said chosen religion.
6: No persons will be allowed to be born into a religion. No camps for children will be allowed if they preach any sort of religious message.

While the Commonwealth appaluds the government of Vampyrum for reversing its foolish and intolerant decision, the Commonwealth will retain its sanctions at this time. The government of Vampyrum may appeal this decision before the complete Commonwealth Parliament if it wishes to do so.

Tyler Hutchins
Prime Minister
Commonwealth of Tolvan

"...Wait, what?

Atheism SO got a standard belief structure. You gotta not believe in God. You gotta not believe God created the World in seven days. For crying out loud, can you see an Atheist praying in a Church? No, that would be dumb.

And many Atheists congerate in the place of worship known as the College and the Science Labs. So, it is so a religion. We are upset about this twisting of definitions in denying Atheism the holy title of 'religion'.

Oh wait, you are allowing Atheism. Oh well, never mind then."---President of SilentScope003

Atheism is a religion in the same way that not playing football is a sport.

STATEMENT OF HIS MAJESTY'S COURT
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/Hoodtan/dieu.png
Addressed to the leader of Vampyrum

It has come to my attention that your nation has imposed upon its people laws as tyrannical as can be found in the Communist bloc and other assosciated states our Empire and Nation strives to resist and defeat. In the name of God, we will not stand while these atrocities against our Heavenly Father are commited when we are capable enough to stop it.

The Questarian Empire demands that all branches of Protestant Christianity are unbanned and allowed to be freely practiced in Vampyrum with no restrictions whatsoever. Failure to meet this ultimatum within 48 hours will result in military action against the nation of Vampyrum by the Questarian Empire.
-Alexander II
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/Hoodtan/alex.jpg
-King-Emperor Regnant of Questers and her Colonies
-Commander in Chief of the Questarian Navy and Questarian Army
-Defender of the Faith
-Champion of Liberty
-Lord of the Commonwealth realms

Note: Hofscient is a politically neutral region, somewhat like Switzerland, and it acts as a representative of Imperium Scientium and Hofkauzern in the United Nations and on forums. Sanctions can not be imposed against such a neutral region.

The united governments of Hofscient applaud your opposition of religion. In Imperium Scientium, the state is run by logical laws, one of which bans ancient and obsolete superstitions such as religions. This nation is devoted to scientific progress, and all religious people from within its borders have already been deported. Technically, freedom of religion has been reinstated in Imperium Scientium; however, as the population is entirely atheist, this has little effect. The Unholy Empire of Hofkauzern stands ready to support the Colony of Vampyrum in the event of a crusade or "holy war."

Death to ignorance! Let knowledge propagate throughout the world!

STATEMENT OF HIS MAJESTY'S COURT
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/Hoodtan/dieu.png
Addressed to the leader of Vampyrum

It has come to my attention that your nation has imposed upon its people laws as tyrannical as can be found in the Communist bloc and other assosciated states our Empire and Nation strives to resist and defeat. In the name of God, we will not stand while these atrocities against our Heavenly Father are commited when we are capable enough to stop it.

The Questarian Empire demands that all branches of Protestant Christianity are unbanned and allowed to be freely practiced in Vampyrum with no restrictions whatsoever. Failure to meet this ultimatum within 48 hours will result in military action against the nation of Vampyrum by the Questarian Empire.
-Alexander II
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/Hoodtan/alex.jpg
-King-Emperor Regnant of Questers and her Colonies
-Commander in Chief of the Questarian Navy and Questarian Army
-Defender of the Faith
-Champion of Liberty
-Lord of the Commonwealth realms

FROM THE DESK OF HM SULTAN NERIS III:

I regret to inform you, oh benevolent King-Emperor, that Plotadonias people are very firmly against my millitary involvement against Vampyrum. However, we applaud you for your bravery and may be willing to provide some material aid of the industrial sort. Any war materials will have to be carried on Questerian ships, however, and to avoid violating international convention, we will have to charge you at least a slight profit level for any industrial materials purchased from this country, and your ships will have to be protected largely by your own naval assets.

Hopefully this will help you free up capacity for the good fight and the fight against tyranny and satanism disguised as apathy that my people and myself did not have the strength to fight.

Graciously,

HM Sultan Neris III
Lord High Trade Commisoner P.K. Landav

Referfence:Geography of Plotadonia, in case it comes up. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=545312)

Atheism is a religion in the same way that not playing football is a sport.

I disagree, one of the distinguishing features of religion is that it is some form of belief structure that is based upon faith and not evidence. Atheism assumes a world view that is not provable and atheists must ignore inconsistencies in their beliefs to carry on.

OOC-->Think of the movie Matrix. How do you convince or prove to a matrix resident that he is only in some virtual reality system when he has never seen anything outside the Matrix? How do you tell him that there is another world out there that is "real" while this world that he is currently experiencing with his senses are but an illusion? The atheist will ignore any evidence that may make him think of alternate possibilities, hence the atheist maintains his beliefs through faith much like the other religious people rely upon their faith. An atheist would just say that "Neo" took the wrong pill that gave him hallucinations of weirdness and any "supernatural" occurrences that may happen end up having a perfectly logical explanation.... and on and on. So atheism is a religion even if it is counter-intuitive to accept it.

Some would even argue that atheism is anti-science but that is another topic.

To the Prime Minister of Vampyrum,

I am appalled by your lack of tolerance toward religions. Why do you feel the need to persecute those who believe differently than you? I must tell you that you are making a big mistake.

Signed,
Prior Jones
The Great Monastery of Sverð

To: Vampyrum
From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs

The Grand World Order would like to express it's concern for your blatant support of Satanism, a religion banned in the Grand World Order due to it's generally disturbing nature. While a non-religion oriented state, the Grand World Order allows all religions, except for Satanism and a select few other religions, to operate. Our way of doing this follows:

- No religious factions may number above 150, and may only be used with Government Authorization.
- Religious Organizations must pay taxes.
- Religious groups cannot physically attack or provoke another religion.
- Religious groups must punish their members if they physically attack another religion, preferably by excommunication or condemnation, which will be added to Government punishment.
- No creatures under the Kingdom of Animalia, excluding insects and threats to society, may be tortured or killed in an inhumane way.
- No humans may be sacrificed, period.
- Nobody can be forced into becoming a member of a group. This includes terror attacks, torture, or any other unpleasant form of communication. If someone asks for a group to cease any actions towards them, they must stop.
- No secretive activity, the Religious Organization MUST notify the Government within one week of creation.
- Religious Organizations cannot excessively harm their members physically.

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister

To: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs

We would like to know how you feel that Satanism is a disturbing religion.

From the Secretary of the Prime Minister

To: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs

We would like to know how you feel that Satanism is a disturbing religion.

From: The Grand World Order Office of Foreign Affairs
To: The Secretary of the Prime Minister

Satanic cults have been known for their sacrificial practices, which was the main reason for our banning of them. They have also been known to kidnap citizens in our nation, which is on a steady increase ((OOC: I just got motivation for a thread.)), and it quiets the peasants knowing that Satanists aren't roaming their neighborhoods.

Orthodox Church of Skibereen

The Orthodox Church of the Armed republic of the Three Isles of Skibereen does here by level its support to the Questarian nation in its deliverance of the faithful from the tyranny of the G-dless.

The freedom of the individual to self determination is a fundamental right, and Authoritarian imposition of the Vampyrum government's limited views upon the whole of population is truly an atrocity.

To veil institutionalized bigotry in form of supposed intellectual advancement is disturbingly simple minded and the Skibereenian Orthodoxi is prepared to level it hefty weight and influence to drive the political wheel of this great and free nation to smash the corrupt neophyte despots of Vampyrum from the face of the earth.

Freedom, is the only option.

Signed
Daniel McSumba
Arch Bishop of New Dublin

I disagree, one of the distinguishing features of religion is that it is some form of belief structure that is based upon faith and not evidence. Atheism assumes a world view that is not provable and atheists must ignore inconsistencies in their beliefs to carry on.

OOC-->Think of the movie Matrix. How do you convince or prove to a matrix resident that he is only in some virtual reality system when he has never seen anything outside the Matrix? How do you tell him that there is another world out there that is "real" while this world that he is currently experiencing with his senses are but an illusion? The atheist will ignore any evidence that may make him think of alternate possibilities, hence the atheist maintains his beliefs through faith much like the other religious people rely upon their faith. An atheist would just say that "Neo" took the wrong pill that gave him hallucinations of weirdness and any "supernatural" occurrences that may happen end up having a perfectly logical explanation.... and on and on. So atheism is a religion even if it is counter-intuitive to accept it.

Some would even argue that atheism is anti-science but that is another topic.

First of all, the burden of proof lies on Neo. He makes the outstanding claim, and quite frankly, I would think he is a bit crazy. Of course because we, as viewers of the movie, know that in the Matrix universe, he is right, but people he'll might tell do not, and so have no proof that it exists.

The problem with your argument is that it requires that super natural things exist. Hey, maybe unicorns that fart rainbows a gumdrops exist, that's your belief, but personally, I thinks it's a stupid one.

Secondly (as if the first one isn't enough), you misdefine faith. Do I have to have faith to know that gravity exists? No. It's common sense. Just like it's common sense that unicorns don't exist, and that the Matrix universe is just a movie.

Of course, by your definition, when I get a math problem wrong, my teacher starts a new religion, based on the faith that I got it wrong, ignoring the the wealth of evidence that 2+2=5.

Thirdly, atheism being anti-science is like saying silverware is anti-food. it makes no sense. Atheism is simply the belief that there is no god, how does that effect science? Furthermore, of the elite scientists in the world, only 7% believe in god, with the highest rate being mathematicians. I would say that most scientists are not anti-science.

But let's take a look at most religions. They make claims, such as the earth being formed in 7 days, and that the Flintstones was historically accurate cartoon in that dinosaurs and humans coexisted. Things we have proven false for decades. And yet you have to have faith that men, much smarter than you or I, are completely wrong, or are all telling a collective lie, in order to believe the drivel that comes out of most holy books. Now that's anti-science.

Your argument is probably one of the weakest ones I have ever seen. You, sir, phail epically, and have made me lose all respect for humanity.

I mean, I look at that argument about the matrix, and all I see is "How do you convince someone of something that's not true? Well you have to tell them other things that aren't true, but they are a religion because they have faith in their sanity, and the fact that what you just told them is retarded.

But hey, here's a deal. I'll accept your argument, if you accept the following:

You are actually a genetically mutated tape worm in the bowels of Jar Jar Binks. Darth Vader brainwashed you, so that way he could see which side of the force you are on, and either make you the first Tapeworm Sith Lord, or send you to his grandma wrapped in a tortilla. Now, I know this, because I took a pill someone gave me, so of course all of this is 100% true.

First of all, the burden of proof lies on Neo. He makes the outstanding claim, and quite frankly, I would think he is a bit crazy. Of course because we, as viewers of the movie, know that in the Matrix universe, he is right, but people he'll might tell do not, and so have no proof that it exists.

Its an illustration demonstrating that the atheist can never prove that the matrix is the real world just like Neo can't prove to the atheist that there is a real world beyond sense experiences. Claiming that the burden of proof lies on Neo is an arrogant claim based upon the assumption that your sense experience is superior to all other considerations, and that dear sir is a belief, not a fact. You denigrate religious people for making such claims, don't do it yourself.

The problem with your argument is that it requires that super natural things exist. Hey, maybe unicorns that fart rainbows a gumdrops exist, that's your belief, but personally, I thinks it's a stupid one.

You're putting words in my mouth creating a false argument that you can easily refute. I never stated what I believed, I merely pointed out the fact that atheism functions under the same assumptions as theism.

Secondly (as if the first one isn't enough), you misdefine faith. Do I have to have faith to know that gravity exists? No. It's common sense. Just like it's common sense that unicorns don't exist, and that the Matrix universe is just a movie.

What does gravity have to do with one's beliefs? Are you insinuating that people who believe in an outside existence to what we perceive ignore what is front of their own face? Matrix=illustration for you to understand a point.

Of course, by your definition, when I get a math problem wrong, my teacher starts a new religion, based on the faith that I got it wrong, ignoring the the wealth of evidence that 2+2=5.

The inventors of math were very religious, they had a weird cult and math was the proof of their beliefs. Look into the history of what you claim as atheism is somehow based on evidence while others ignore evidence. Even during the Renaissance, there was an atheist that kept assuming that all men of science were atheist. The one who made this claim was not a scientist but a philosopher. One day, a scientist gave a mathematical equation to this individual and said "this proves God exists, try to disprove this equation", the atheist ran out of the building.

Thirdly, atheism being anti-science is like saying silverware is anti-food. it makes no sense. Atheism is simply the belief that there is no god, how does that effect science? Furthermore, of the elite scientists in the world, only 7% believe in god, with the highest rate being mathematicians. I would say that most scientists are not anti-science.

I would very much like to know how and where you got this statistic of belief in God. First of all, statistics based upon any social groups is based upon aggregating numbers, it is not pure science as in this rock is x grams no matter what. So how can you place so much credibility upon such an unsure methodology.

But let's take a look at most religions. They make claims, such as the earth being formed in 7 days, and that the Flintstones was historically accurate cartoon in that dinosaurs and humans coexisted. Things we have proven false for decades. And yet you have to have faith that men, much smarter than you or I, are completely wrong, or are all telling a collective lie, in order to believe the drivel that comes out of most holy books. Now that's anti-science.

You do not know enough about religion or about science to make that statement. I know many make claims like what you say, but do not put popular traditions in the same category as what the religion is claiming or what science is or is not. I know that in high school everyone is told how the church refused to belief the Earth revolved around the sun and that science was rejected. The truth of the matter is that it was a scientific dispute between those who held to Ptolemaic view of the universe (sun revolving around the earth) vs the Aristotelian view of the universe (earth revolving around the sun). Galileo was not condemned for having his belief but rather he was condemned for not accepting that there may be another view in astronomy. Galileo, without evidence stuck to his beliefs and that is what condemned him. It was only after that evidence came to being to support him. And guess what? Many navigational charts used in the 21st century are still using the Ptolemaic set of reference for their math because it is a better scientific method to navigate. Einstein had similar problems with proposing his theories, he had no evidence and the scientific community never published his papers. Einstein had to publish in a philosophical journal, then the scientific community started to experiment and calculate and discovered Einstein had been right the whole time. That is faith at work, knowing that you are correct without evidence. Our greatest scientists have it. Perhaps you could look more deeply into things before believing pre-made packaged answers. You think scientists are great because they verify? Do the same before you assume that what you've been told is true.

Your argument is probably one of the weakest ones I have ever seen. You, sir, phail epically, and have made me lose all respect for humanity.

Well you are easily discouraged then. And it is pretty easy to claim that my argument is weak when you placed words in my mouth. Build a straw man and you can knock it down brilliantly.

I mean, I look at that argument about the matrix, and all I see is "How do you convince someone of something that's not true? Well you have to tell them other things that aren't true, but they are a religion because they have faith in their sanity, and the fact that what you just told them is retarded.

My point is that both side think that their position is true and neither can prove it conclusively because you can not prove either side. Neo can't prove that the person is only in a matrix in the same way that the person can't prove to Neo that the matrix is the only thing that is real and that Neo is only hallucinating an outside reality.

But hey, here's a deal. I'll accept your argument, if you accept the following:

You are actually a genetically mutated tape worm in the bowels of Jar Jar Binks. Darth Vader brainwashed you, so that way he could see which side of the force you are on, and either make you the first Tapeworm Sith Lord, or send you to his grandma wrapped in a tortilla. Now, I know this, because I took a pill someone gave me, so of course all of this is 100% true.

Oversimplifying a complex issue does not enlighten one to understand life and keeps us in a restrainer. If you believe that evidence is supreme, why are you avoiding the exploration of an alternate view and distracting the topic by amusing but irrelevant statements?

Its an illustration demonstrating that the atheist can never prove that the matrix is the real world just like Neo can't prove to the atheist that there is a real world beyond sense experiences. Claiming that the burden of proof lies on Neo is an arrogant claim based upon the assumption that your sense experience is superior to all other considerations, and that dear sir is a belief, not a fact. You denigrate religious people for making such claims, don't do it yourself.

How is it an arrogant claim? Between two people, one believing that the world is simpler, and one making an outrageous claim, then it is the second that must bring proof.

For example. A man named Norbert meets Neo. Neo tells him "Hey, there is an insanely improbable computer that controls reality. Norbert would have to be crazy to believe Neo. It doesn't take faith, it takes common sense based on on evidence.



You're putting words in my mouth creating a false argument that you can easily refute. I never stated what I believed, I merely pointed out the fact that atheism functions under the same assumptions as theism.

Alright, I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I see what your saying to,and I will attempt to correct that further.

What does gravity have to do with one's beliefs? Are you insinuating that people who believe in an outside existence to what we perceive ignore what is front of their own face? Matrix=illustration for you to understand a point.

No, what I was saying is that my math teacher forms a religion, because she isn't willing to look into the possibility of 2+2=5. There are a whole bunch of super natural reasons as to why 2+2=5, and yet no matter what she refuses, based on the faith that I am wrong.

The inventors of math were very religious, they had a weird cult and math was the proof of their beliefs. Look into the history of what you claim as atheism is somehow based on evidence while others ignore evidence. Even during the Renaissance, there was an atheist that kept assuming that all men of science were atheist. The one who made this claim was not a scientist but a philosopher. One day, a scientist gave a mathematical equation to this individual and said "this proves God exists, try to disprove this equation", the atheist ran out of the building.

Math being a cult is irrelevant. I never said mathematicians weren't odd. Second, I never said atheism was always based on evidence, so now you are putting words in my mouth. Finally, the bit about the philosopher not being a scientist, and then running out of the building is also irrelevant. Besides, the math problem could not have proven that god exists, just that the mathematician doesn't know where the burden of proof lies.

The mathematician made an outstanding claim, saying that his math problem (which, for all I know was "If 1=G, 2=O, and Infinity=D, then Infinity=GOD"), not only proved god's existence, but then he has to provide evidence for why it does so. At which point the philosopher must then either correct him or admit he is right.

I would very much like to know how and where you got this statistic of belief in God. First of all, statistics based upon any social groups is based upon aggregating numbers, it is not pure science as in this rock is x grams no matter what. So how can you place so much credibility upon such an unsure methodology.

Larson, Edward J.; Larry Witham (1998). "Leading scientists still reject God". Nature 394 (6691). Macmillan Publishers Ltd.

A clip of the article can be found here (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html).


You do not know enough about religion or about science to make that statement. I know many make claims like what you say, but do not put popular traditions in the same category as what the religion is claiming or what science is or is not.

I seperated this part to make the next part easier to read.

I know that in high school everyone is told how the church refused to belief the Earth revolved around the sun and that science was rejected. The truth of the matter is that it was a scientific dispute between those who held to Ptolemaic view of the universe (sun revolving around the earth) vs the Aristotelian view of the universe (earth revolving around the sun).

From an Article on the Ptolomaic System:

"In astronomy, the geocentric model of the universe is the disproved theory that the Earth is at the center of the universe and the Sun and other objects go around it. Belief in this system was common in ancient Greece. It was embraced by both Aristotle and Ptolemy, and most Greek philosophers assumed that the Sun, Moon, stars, and naked eye planets circle the Earth. Similar ideas were held in ancient China...

...Aristotle elaborated on Eudoxus' system. In the fully developed Aristotelian system, the spherical Earth is at the center of the universe. All heavenly bodies are attached to 56 concentric spheres which rotate around the Earth. (The number is so high because several transparent spheres are needed for each planet.) The Moon is on the innermost sphere. Thus it touches the realm of Earth, which contaminates it, causing the dark spots (macula) and the ability to go through lunar phases. It is not perfect like the other heavenly bodies, which shine by their own light."

You said something about my lack of verification?

Galileo was not condemned for having his belief but rather he was condemned for not accepting that there may be another view in astronomy. Galileo, without evidence stuck to his beliefs and that is what condemned him. It was only after that evidence came to being to support him.

In Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo give mathematical evidence, based on observations and equations to prove that he was right. The church said he wasn't right because Aristotle and the Bible says so. It might be nice to actually read up on things, before making claims like that.

And guess what? Many navigational charts used in the 21st century are still using the Ptolemaic set of reference for their math because it is a better scientific method to navigate.

Now I think your fibbing a bit there. When navigating by the stars (which no one with a modern boat does anymore), you use star charts. Navigational charts are charts of the Earth, and have no connection to the Ptolemaic theory.

Furthermore, the Ptolemaic model is used in star charts for a number of reasons.

1) Because all the bugs have been worked out over thousands of years
2) Because the math is easier. Copernican models take into account the fact that everything is moving (continued in reason 3)
3) Because it's doesn't matter whether or not the starts revolve around the earth. It really matters in what direction the move across the sky. Both models will tell you that, but the Copernican model is the right one because we can prove that.

Einstein had similar problems with proposing his theories, he had no evidence and the scientific community never published his papers. Einstein had to publish in a philosophical journal, then the scientific community started to experiment and calculate and discovered Einstein had been right the whole time.

That's because Einstein used "Thought Experiments" when dealing with atoms. Since he could not manipulate them on such a fine scale, he took what he did know, and constantly added new variables, so that he could guess what would happen.

Of course because in the fields of science, you need hard proof, such a methodology wouldn't be accepted, even though Einstein worked hard to make sure it was accurate. Otherwise, Joe Nobody could come in and say "I did a thought experiment that shows that a flying spaghetti monster is orbiting the earth".

That is faith at work, knowing that you are correct without evidence. Our greatest scientists have it. Perhaps you could look more deeply into things before believing pre-made packaged answers. You think scientists are great because they verify? Do the same before you assume that what you've been told is true.

Your argument here is irrelevant. You have not proved that Einstein or Galileo had faith based on nothing more that faith itself. They both had faith based on fact, which is different than religious faith. You should be the one looking more deeply into things.

Well you are easily discouraged then. And it is pretty easy to claim that my argument is weak when you placed words in my mouth. Build a straw man and you can knock it down brilliantly.

Not all of my argument was putting words in your mouth. And perhaps if you had elaborated on your point (which I won't concretely say what it is, because I don't want to put words in your mouth again, but which I understand to be "Atheism is a religion because atheists simply don't try to find evidence for outstanding claims when none is given").

Occam's Razor: It slices, it dices, it removes superfluous super natural entities!

My point is that both side think that their position is true and neither can prove it conclusively because you can not prove either side. Neo can't prove that the person is only in a matrix in the same way that the person can't prove to Neo that the matrix is the only thing that is real and that Neo is only hallucinating an outside reality.

Again, burden of proof. Neo makes an outrageous claim, so he must prove it. That is how science works. One has paradigm X, which is that there is no matrix. Neo comes along with paradigm Y, so he must provide evidence as to why his argument is correct, and why paradigm X is wrong.

If one cannot provide support for paradigm Y, then paradigm Y will never be proven.

At least not using the scientific method.

Oversimplifying a complex issue does not enlighten one to understand life and keeps us in a restrainer. If you believe that evidence is supreme, why are you avoiding the exploration of an alternate view and distracting the topic by amusing but irrelevant statements?

You assume that I am ignorant, and simply deny the existence of god without looking at the evidence for god.

I've read the bible, the koran, and many books on theology. The problem with it is that their points fall into two categories.

They either provide direct evidence for their god, in which case there is usually pseudoscience, appeals to emotion, ad hominem attacks, appeals to consequence, and generally saying "SCIENCE IS WRONG, TEH BOOK HErE SAYZ IT!".

Or the evidence falls into a broad, circumstantial evidence or arguments, that could support any religion, for example Pascal's Wager, and in doing so negates itself.

Now if you would like to give me some evidence to explore, then I'll explore it.

But more to the point, when someone doesn't give you evidence for the existence of something (which is a key difference between your argument about Einstein's scientific faith, and theistic arguments. It's that Einstein had facts to back it up, why theists generally have no hard evidence) doesn't mean rejecting it takes the same kind of faith as believing it.

Rejecting it takes only the common sense to realize that you have no reason to believe something, and accepting Occam's Razor.

Accepting it means rejecting scientific fact, and sometimes carrying contradictory views, with out any reason to do so, thus rejecting Occam's Razor.

FROM THE DESK OF THE PROVOST RELIK:

You are assuming that Occum's Razor applies in all cirucmstances, but in order for Occum's Razor to apply, you must first have data and observations to draw your theories from. You sir have none. Otherwise you are working on the false assumption that the universe is simple and only what you can see exists, which by the simple mathematical probability of all the potential problems with that theory cannot likely be true.

I have no observations? I am seriously dumbfounded at how poorly thought out that remark is. You are blatantly assuming too much. I mean, it's like me saying that you don't have eyes, ears, a nose, or hair, and being totally convinced.

Furthermore, you put words in my mouth. I never said the universe was simple. I defy you to point out one time I did. I did however, say that the universe is simpler with out god, because he is a being that totally defies any and all laws.

You are setting up a straw man that believes that the universe is a simple place, where anything it doesn't see doesn't exist. That, however, is not my belief, and you'd do well to actually read what I am saying.

In fact, you say that science cannot prove that God exists, but let's step it up and realize also that science cannot prove you or the universe around you really exists. By science, you could be living in an illusion.

Science can't prove anything. That's just how science works. A scientific theory must have someway to prove that it is false. For instance, the Theory (theory being the highest level of truth anything can have) of Gravity can be disproven if, say, one time you dropped a ball, but instead of going up, it was suspended in mid air until someone or something touched it.

However, science can provide so much evidence for something, that it gets as close to fact as possible. Anyone wishing to say that the theory is wrong must provide evidence. Anyone wishing to add to the theory must provide evidence. Any change in the theory must be backed up by reason and evidence.

Whereas the existence of god has no evidence, the universe is all around me. It has laws that don't contradict each other, and I know I exist, and am part of the universe. Therefore I can say with utmost certainty that the universe does exist.

Further, you are right in saying that atheism is not antiscientific, but you are wrong in saying that other religions are, for merely living in this world involves taking assumptions on faith, and sometimes to prove something mathematically or scientifically you have to take an assumption as well.

The main difference being as you stated below. Once religions start using evidence, hard scientific evidence, they are anti-science. Unless, of course, they make no special claimsabout the cosmos (like how it was made, or whether or not god exists), in which case it ceases to be a religion, and more of a philosophy.

And as long as you partition what needs to be proven from what cannot, as the creationists fail to do in their flimsy angry faith, there will be no fault in your reasoning. Example: If you're proving that the limit of a quadratic exists by the delta, epsilon rule of mathematics, you must often assume momentarilly a value for delta, such as 1, to manipulate the delta term in to an easy factor of the epsillon, and having done this, you can then establish an objective truth that holds up to other analysis.

Nothing to say on that, really.

There is also a significant difference between agnosticism, which you defend, and atheism, which you do not. For agnosticism, or acknowledging that you do not know if God exists, which is what your Paradigm Y proof relates to, would also reject the flatout assumption that God does not exist. In short sir, you cannot prove atheism scientifically.

Technically, I can't prove atheism scientifically. I can, however, provide evidence that there is no god, to the point where I can say with 100% certainty that he does not exist.

My paradigm Y proof doesn't relate to this. My paradigm proof states that the burden of proof lies on the one who makes the claim. Until there is evidence for Paradigm Y, I will hold paradigm X to be true, and reject paradigm Y.

Furthermore, agnosticism is on a different level than atheism. Jung classified faiths on a scale, where everyone not registering either 0 or 100 is an agnostic, but prefers to live their life according to an assumption.

I will admit that I am an agnostic, in that I realize the existence of god cannot be disproven, just as the existence of fairies can't be disproven. I am an atheist in that I believe both to be fake with 100% assuredness.

Jeez everyone, calm down. Neither of you are going to prove weather God exists or not, so don't get worked up over it. Although I must say, except for the personal jabs here and there, this has been a good debate. Lots of good points on both sides.

[OOC: A good debate, but in the wrong place. You should consider relocating this.]

Jeez everyone, calm down. Neither of you are going to prove weather God exists or not, so don't get worked up over it. Although I must say, except for the personal jabs here and there, this has been a good debate. Lots of good points on both sides.

Technically it's a debate on whether or not atheism is a religion. I vote we stop hijacking the thread, and agree to disagree (mostly because it takes up to half an hour to write so much).

You assume that I am ignorant, and simply deny the existence of god without looking at the evidence for god.

I've read the bible, the koran, and many books on theology. The problem with it is that their points fall into two categories.

They either provide direct evidence for their god, in which case there is usually pseudoscience, appeals to emotion, ad hominem attacks, appeals to consequence, and generally saying "SCIENCE IS WRONG, TEH BOOK HErE SAYZ IT!".

Just because you've spoken to bad debaters about their faith does not imply that the core structure is flawed. I've had circular arguments with many as well and they definitely make the religion they claim to follow sound like a pile of foolishness. And they definitely love to use the ad hominem attacks, but you seem to be doing it as well by lumping an entire belief structure to the trash pile because the individual is using flawed argument structures. Find an intelligent debater. These religions could not have lasted for several hundreds of years if there wasn't some form of rational basis to it.

Some believe things based on what they sense, some believe based upon what they reason, some believe based upon what they experience. I think that it is wise to combine the three to make a proper judgment. Science focuses more on what is sensed, philosophy and atheism focuses more on what they can reason, most people go with what they experience. If you argue from reason to someone who is basing his arguments on experience, you will get noise instead of dialogue.

Atheism is not superior nor inferior, but it does require a way of thinking to "get it". Religions also need a way of thinking to "get it" onto their mindset. Burdens of proof and who needs to present it is debatable when you are on opposite sides of a debate.

From the secretary of the Prime Minister:

To all Nations:

First of all, The Colony of Vampyrum wishes to deplore all those rogue nations that would take up arms against a country and a people who have done nothing to hurt the aforementioned countries. Violence is always the first resort of the Violent. Any military action taken against us, and we will partition the United Nations for support in our defense. We DO NOT wish for conflict.

Secondly, you can not comment on things you do not know. Satanism is a very law abiding religion. It's Tennant's of belief very much ban the sacrifice of living creatures (unlike Christianity which likes a good blood bath).

The new laws on religion stay.

Any violent action taken against the peaceful Colony of Vampyrum will result in the requesting of aid from The UN.

OOC: Out of respect to the OP and to the people who had the courtesy to post ICly. You lot should delete your debate...have it somewhere else. You have totally hijacked this thread for what belongs in General.

Take your OOC bullshit there.

OOC: I agree with Skibereen. Please stop.

IC:
Any violent action taken against the peaceful Colony of Vampyrum will result in the requesting of aid from The UN.

SilentScope003's Terranist Church: And the UN may very well authorize said bloodbath.

One, you haven't exactly clarified to the international community what you are DOING to those who believe in religion? Sending them to prison camps? Re-educating them? If so, you are violating

Resolution #115, Freedom of Consicence (http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_past_resolutions/start=114):

1) DEFINE a ‘prisoner of conscience’ as a person who is detained or imprisoned, not for use of, nor encouragement to use, violence; not for openly supporting nor recommending hatred for racial, religious, sexual or similar reasons to provoke people to discriminate, or to be hostile or violent; but for their political, religious or other beliefs, or their ethnic origin, gender, sexuality, colour or similarly unjustifiable reasons; and accordingly

INSIST that all member states immediately and unconditionally release any prisoners of conscience they are currently detaining and

PROHIBIT member states from detaining prisoners of conscience in the future.

And even if you claim you are only imprisoining those preists who call for violence, then what about those atheists who call for violence? Why are they not given the same punishment? And is that the real reason why you are imprisoning those preists...or just a dumb excuse?

Secondly, look at the Eon Convention of Genocide (http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_past_resolutions/start=82):

§1. Genocide is defined as the systematic and deliberate extermination of a society, or part of a society, based on arbitrary criteria (such as skin colour, genetic conditions or religion). Those covered by this resolution are those protected by The UBR.
§2. Extermination includes, but is not limited to:- murder, torture, enslavement, rape, forced pregnancy and familial separation.
§3. Genocide is committed or instigated by the state, or by groups acting on behalf of the state. Should there be a claim for a private group being responsible for genocide, this can also be brought before TPP (to be described later) to confirm the validity of the claim.

I'm sure those invading you could claim a right to Intervention to stop human right abuses according to Humanitarian Intervention (http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_past_resolutions/start=91):

RECOGNISING that a major purpose of states and governments is to protect and secure the human rights of their people, and that governments who seriously violate these rights undermine the one reason that justifies their political power,

ASSERTING that, as stated in the Eon Convention on Genocide (UNP #83), genocide is a “heinous crime”, a “crime against all people”, and “a crime that exceeds the jurisdiction of any one nation. Those who commit genocide should be brought to justice by the international community”.

THUS ARGUES that such governments committing such violations, in contradiction to international law, should therefore not be protected by international law;

CALLS for the introduction of a right of humanitarian intervention, defined as "the proportionate international use or threat of military force, undertaken by a multilateral force with UN authorisation, aimed only at ending tyranny or genocide or extreme cases of human rights abuses on a grand scale*, welcomed by the victims, and consistent with the doctrines of consequence, intention and proportionality". (* e.g. genocide, ethnic cleansing or other extreme human rights violations.)

Even if it is not ruled 'genocide', those intervening can claim it is an 'Extreme Human Right Violation'. And I don't blame them for it. Check a look at the Universal Bill of Rights (http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_past_resolutions/start=25):

Article 1 -- All human beings have the right to choose worship any faith, and to change their religious beliefs at any time without punishment on the part of the state.

That makes your law preventing kids from following religion obivoulsy in direct contradiction.

The only thing that stops them is a simple request: The UN may supervise the violent takeover:

Such violations may be brought to the UN’s attention by any coalition of nations (minimum of 2) with a plan for intervention. The case will then be assessed by a Pretenama Panel as described in the Eon Convention. They will be advised by impartial and independent human rights experts, (e.g. from human rights international non-governmental organisations,) but it will be the UN committee who votes on whether an action is appropriate.

If you want, you can bring this case over to the The Pretenama Panel, and have them rule on if this is 'genocide' or not, and if so, what to do about it. But you risk getting the UN involved and start attacking you anyway. Anyway, as you can see in the UN resolutions, they protect the rights of "Religions", so you must not expect much sympathy from any member nations.

As a note, I know you aren't a member of the UN, so you aren't obligated to follow the rules. But since you are suffering an intervention, and you call for the UN to intervene...I thought you would like to know what you are facing here.

There is one consolation: You could make a claim that they are committing a counter-genocide, targeting your men due to an artibrary critera (lack of faith). Counter-genocides are illegal as well as genocides. All that would really do however is just bring in a group of UN nations who would just attack both sides.

We have been observing this situation for many days now, and can come to but one conclusion: if the citizens of the Colony of Vampyrum are truly vampyrs, then there should be little, if any, concern in the affairs of humanity, which would include their pathetic views on that which is eternal.

We here in the nation of Vhammpyr do not hold to a so-called Supreme Being. We do not look to any but ourselves for our salvation, and we worship nothing.

We have existed for over 40,000 years, and have seen thousands of human countries come and go. We have observed that the human nations that fell most quickly were they who held to a belief that "god" was on their side. When "god" didn't arrive in time, that nation slid into oblivion.

I therefore call upon the leadership of Vampyrum to purge their nation of all spiritual belief systems. Do not bend to the pressure of the humans. They are vermin, and deserve death. If you are truly a pure vampyric race, we of the Warlords of Vhammpyr will stand behind you with all of our terrible power. No one will dare stand against you if you choose to allow us to aid you.

If, however, you continue to vacillate according to the statements of the humans, you are doomed. We offer you an alliance of Vampyrs. No human nation or government can or will stand against it.

(signed)

Prince Teii Tantasa, High Warlord of Vhammpyr