NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC:this was discussed in the UN forum. I am continuing the discussion here. if you would like to know what is going on. (ps. this proposal is not going to go through. we are only discussing what it would be like IF i could propose it)

now on with the argument.

in response to ShogunKhan,
:rolleyes:you still seem to think that I would be deciding the levels are good and which ones are bad. I have already said that either the UN can come to a consensus on this or the individual nations can decide (by whatever means they feel proper, such as voting) what is good and what is bad.

you have also mentioned stopping war through debate. good idea if all nations had justice in mind. however, what about the ones ruled by pure evil? the ones that are not interested in peace but simply want to kill for the fun of it? In these cases, war is a must (though i would like to avoid having to kill at all costs and rehabilitate prisoners instead.) but ... thats another topic I suppose.

In response to Roseariea's comment,

I have already told you that their are many different terms for a "soul". one is the mind. in one dimension, they are called sparks, yet in another, they are called kernels. the "soul" that I describe is an imprint on reality. it can be reduced to a string of code that describes every aspect of a person.

as for Karianis,

this code is, for the most part, read only. it can be destroyed but not edited in any way without the owners permission. In other words, to "taint" your soul , you would have to give your permission (and not just by word of mouth, you have to mean it)
ps.I recognize that your existence programing (souls) are owned by a goddess. I have been to many dimensions that have many gods. if you have the ability to establish communication with her, i would be most appreciative of you if you would give me a chance to talk with her;) (though I doubt you have that kind of access, its rare to be able to talk with a representative much less get a one-on-one chat with a full fledged god)

finally Pugliasium, (you wanted an explanation of the tech? you got it!)
in response to you, I would first like to point out that not all magic is bad. if by "whichcraft", you mean gaining power from an evil source, then no this does not involve anything of the sort. some people derive power from gods, others have the natural ability to alter reality. still others have to use complicated formulas and machines to preform spells. It all depends on the physics of your resident dimension. the world of nationstate is odd in this sense. it appears to have different physical laws depending on your geography. This leads me to believe that nationstate is composed of parts of dimensions that broke off and then came together. ( how els do you explain dragons in one nation and a surprising lack of them in the nation right next to them!) as for the actual tech used, you could say it looks like a phone or an mp3 player. it is hand held. basically, the device (called a datavice, I came up with the design based on something similar I saw in another dimension). inside will be a preset program that will run the scan. a stream of energy will come from the top (OOC: think of those sprint commercials) IC: and envelop the subject. The soul will be then extracted from the body (don't worry, no pain whatsoever is involved) the soul code is then read and placed back. the process takes only about 2-5 minutes. of course, this will be the only function of the models you will be receiving. if you want to know the features of the ones my citizens receive, I will answer at a later time. this post is already way too long for my liking.

ps. a psychology test could be easily tricked if you are smart enough to know how to answer. it would also require more time,money, and energy.

OOC: World Haven, I moved this thread from Gameplay because it's not talking about aspects of how the game is played. It's talking about a roleplayed concept -- the Soul Scan.

It seems to involve RPd discussions of RPd religions. I'm switching it to International Incidents because you're discussing applying it internationally. I'm open to arguments if you want it in NationStates, but whatever it is, it's roleplayed.

In response to Uiri's argument, I am well aware of the duality of good and evil (god am I aware of it, I sometimes wish I was a little more ignorant). But you must agree that you should be as good as possible right? that is what we are trying to accomplish. It sure would be nice to be able to make a completely pure person, however, the only sure way to do that is to take a newborn infant, put it in a coma and stick it on life support in some dark box. in other words, just living life produces some evil. you just have to try to have as little as possible.

The UN representative of Uiri stood up to debate this, "I don't think that you should 'try to have as little as possible'. You should just do whatever you feel is right. If someone punches you, you punch them back, it's logical. Would these actions be considered evil? Maybe. Would they be considered fair? Probably."

The UN representative of Uiri stood up to debate this, "I don't think that you should 'try to have as little as possible'. You should just do whatever you feel is right. If someone punches you, you punch them back, it's logical. Would these actions be considered evil? Maybe. Would they be considered fair? Probably."

I am not sure I understand. :confused: if you feel it is right and the majority of people feel it is right, then it can be considered right. if only you feel it is right, then you must either make an argument as to why it is right and convince the majority, or admit that it is wrong and change your ways. if you know it is wrong but do it anyway, then you are evil and must be rehabilitated.

in general, people who have high levels of negative emotions (not just a little hate but enough to act on that hate or cause other serious problems) tend to be higher on the graph of evil. rehabilitation is intended to bring them as close to 0 as possible and maybe even make them good people.

by the way, I must disapprove of your punch argument. what you are talking about is a metaphor for revenge:upyours:, which is one of the most common corrupting actions. you should not fight back unless their is no alternative, or it is the lesser of two evils. instead of punching back, try to stop the fight long enough to find out why you are fighting. step two is to try to resolve things peacefully. failing that, you may have to fight, especially if they just are beating you up (or er... trying to rip out your soul and bite it in half as my enimies seem to be so keen on:( ) because it is pleasurable to them.

OOC: Once again. Their is no UN in International Incidents. But so that this isn't all OOC.

IC: The Kampferian delegate arose. "Where am I???"

OOC: Once again. Their is no UN in International Incidents. But so that this isn't all OOC.

OOC: So they're a bunch of diplomats meeting in a seedy dive to discuss religion because Neville chucked them out of the Strangers' Bar for being too serious. Or they're revolutionaries who support a forbidden UN-in-exile. Or they're holding a holographic seminar aboard the Enterprise. Let the OP flesh out the setting.

I dropped it here because people RP wars that result from UN discussions here. They also RP non-compliance with UN resolutions here. This results from a UN discussion.

OOC: I consider this more of a UN discussion than standard International Incidents, even though it's RP and not legislative. Presumably, we're discussing it outside the UN building to avoid disturbing the current lawmaking process, or more likely, so the current lawmaking process doesn't disturb US. :p

IC: I don't claim to be an expert on magic. Though there are stories of old magic in Yaybor, we lost most of our shamans in the conflict that drove us to this world, and I'm just a diplomat anyway. I find this discussion of "soul scanning" interesting, but somewhat disconcerting.

OOC: your quite correct sir/madam. Originally this argument was posted in the UN forum. though, within this forum much progress and intelligible debate were to be found, it was soon discovered that these thoughts were unacceptable to the UN as a whole. despite one moderator allowing us to continue our persistent bickering and retort, another was rather unhappy with our lingering. upon revitalizing the debate within the forum of gameplay, it was soon discovered that yet, another moderator found the discussion displeasing as you can see above :headbang: . this resulted in our little discussion being dumped here presently. I can only hope that can continue as before without being moved yet again lest a moderator deem this thread to be UN material, thus beginning the whole vicious state of affairs all over again. so pray do read the UN section of the argument so far and tell us your thoughts on the matter whomever should so read this post.

OOC: IC: I don't claim to be an expert on magic. Though there are stories of old magic in Yaybor, we lost most of our shamans in the conflict that drove us to this world, and I'm just a diplomat anyway. I find this discussion of "soul scanning" interesting, but somewhat disconcerting.

the reason you find it disconcerting is because you probably have not read the previous posts that are still in the UN forum. in the UN, I discussed this and found that I had to be a bit more descriptive.

you say you have lost magic? this is interesting. we are always looking for new magical methods. if you would allow us to examine and take notes on your ancient texts, we would be more than happy to help see if we can make sense of them. we have more than a few magic users from a variety of dimensions and areas of study who may have practice or have seen something similar. wire a message if interested:)

in response to ShogunKhan,
:rolleyes:you still seem to think that I would be deciding the levels are good and which ones are bad. I have already said that either the UN can come to a consensus on this or the individual nations can decide (by whatever means they feel proper, such as voting) what is good and what is bad.

you have also mentioned stopping war through debate. good idea if all nations had justice in mind. however, what about the ones ruled by pure evil? the ones that are not interested in peace but simply want to kill for the fun of it? In these cases, war is a must (though i would like to avoid having to kill at all costs and rehabilitate prisoners instead.) but ... thats another topic I suppose.

Wish I could discuss further with you on this topic, but I'm a little busy here... see the thread "Rescuing the orphans from UIOT's clutches" here in the International Incidents forum... Care to help? We could use some of your interdimensional help right about now.

Oh and if you wish to have a cultural exchange, read my thread "Religion of ShogunKhan, The spread of Wonderful War" in the NationStates forum. I could send you some of my Wawis to teach you the Wawa and you could send some of your representatives to teach what you think we can absorb properly in the areas of magic and technology.

(OOC: I think I'm beginning to get a high level of negative emotions ...)

The Story So Far: World Haven offered for discussion in the UN forum a proposal (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=543507&highlight=World+Haven) that involved the use of an RPd device, a Soul Scan. This was legitimately discussed, and finally declared illegal as a proposal. At that stage I said I wouldn't move the thread, referring to what had gone before -- the discussion of it as an acceptable proposal.

However, other posters continued to discuss it as if it were a viable proposal. I threrefore closed it and suggested (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13234517&postcount=35) the topic be resumed in another thread, possibly General (since at that point it was verging into questions of good and evil).

World Haven then resumed it in Gameplay, choosing to highlight the RPd concept of the Soul Scan. Gameplay is not for roleplay, except to the extent needed to advertise a region, so I transferred it to an RP forum. For reasons I've already described, and since World Haven has said s/he doesn't want it moved, here it stays.

So it's not an epic tale of When Mods Collide, it's just me trying to keep the forums tidy. Prithee, carry on.

(OOC: I think I'm beginning to get a high level of negative emotions ...)

The Story So Far: World Haven offered for discussion in the UN forum a proposal (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=543507&highlight=World+Haven) that involved the use of an RPd device, a Soul Scan. This was legitimately discussed, and finally declared illegal as a proposal. At that stage I said I wouldn't move the thread, referring to what had gone before -- the discussion of it as an acceptable proposal.

However, other posters continued to discuss it as if it were a viable proposal. I threrefore closed it and suggested (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13234517&postcount=35) the topic be resumed in another thread, possibly General (since at that point it was verging into questions of good and evil).

World Haven then resumed it in Gameplay, choosing to highlight the RPd concept of the Soul Scan. Gameplay is not for roleplay, except to the extent needed to advertise a region, so I transferred it to an RP forum. For reasons I've already described, and since World Haven has said s/he doesn't want it moved, here it stays.

So it's not an epic tale of When Mods Collide, it's just me trying to keep the forums tidy. Prithee, carry on.

no offense intended, just discribing the events in a humorous way, sorry if i may have anoyed you:p

OOC: So they're a bunch of diplomats meeting in a seedy dive to discuss religion because Neville chucked them out of the Strangers' Bar for being too serious. Or they're revolutionaries who support a forbidden UN-in-exile. Or they're holding a holographic seminar aboard the Enterprise. Let the OP flesh out the setting.

I dropped it here because people RP wars that result from UN discussions here. They also RP non-compliance with UN resolutions here. This results from a UN discussion.

[ Wars happen here because
a) we're extremely bored and as a consequence of that,
b) for lulz.

I don't know anyone that matters that seriously thinks the UN is accepted in II as existing at all. ]

we seem to be getting WAY off topic here. also we are not at war :mp5: . This is a debate. I revealed one of my policies for how i run my nation and how I would like others to run theirs (with a little help from my tech) and people protested it:upyours:. for this, I am glad :) . It gives me a chance to look at my policies from another perspective :confused: and edit them as things come to my attention. I am leader of a large number of people who highly respect me and assume that I can do no wrong. because of this, I am not only subjected to extreme pressure to not make mistakes,but also the inability to receive negative criticism unless I order someone to look for flaws. Even then it is tough to get good answers.

OOC:SO PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT WHY THIS IS IN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENTS, READ THE PRIVIOUS POSTS IN UN AND GET BACK INTO CHARACTER!!! :headbang:

[ Wars happen here because
a) we're extremely bored and as a consequence of that,
b) for lulz.

I don't know anyone that matters that seriously thinks the UN is accepted in II as existing at all. ]
[OOC: I don't think I've ever waged a war out of boredom or for lulz. BTW, Kahanistan does accept the UN as existing, though it sees them as spineless and hampered by their own regulations, much like the RL UN.]

"We do not believe in magic," said a priest of Ghayfagu (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=537177) who walked by. There was a cult in Kahanistan that worshipped the Zukaarian god of furries, other religions, and other races. "At least not the kind of magic you speak of."

[SIZE="1"][OOC: "We do not believe in magic," said a priest of Ghayfagu (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=537177) who walked by. There was a cult in Kahanistan that worshipped the Zukaarian god of furries, other religions, and other races. "At least not the kind of magic you speak of."

magic may be difficult to preform or may not have been discovered yet in your area. often times, magic is either reliant on an outside force (a god, or demon [in our case, benevolent ones]), on the natural ability to manipulate physics with your mind (like catching a ball. you don't calculate the trajectory of the ball to figure out where to put your hand [at least, not concisely]). i can assume that your area may not have developed such traits. therefore, any magic may have to involve complex formulas to preform that you have not discovered yet. my datavices do the majority of the calculating for you. they can also detect your local physics. we have the technology to learn about your local physics and teach ou how to properly manipulate your surroundings.

OOC: I know UN shouldn't be in II but there is no RPing in UN forum

if only you feel it is right, then you must either make an argument as to why it is right and convince the majority, or admit that it is wrong and change your ways. if you know it is wrong but do it anyway, then you are evil and must be rehabilitated.

in general, people who have high levels of negative emotions (not just a little hate but enough to act on that hate or cause other serious problems) tend to be higher on the graph of evil. rehabilitation is intended to bring them as close to 0 as possible and maybe even make them good people.

by the way, I must disapprove of your punch argument. what you are talking about is a metaphor for revenge:upyours:, which is one of the most common corrupting actions. you should not fight back unless their is no alternative, or it is the lesser of two evils. instead of punching back, try to stop the fight long enough to find out why you are fighting. step two is to try to resolve things peacefully. failing that, you may have to fight, especially if they just are beating you up (or er... trying to rip out your soul and bite it in half as my enimies seem to be so keen on:( ) because it is pleasurable to them.


The Uir delegate resonded with thus:

"I have a few points to make:

a) Rehabilitation doesn't work IMHO
b) Revenge is logical from a logical point of view not necessarily from a moral/ethical point of view
c) The metaphor is basically how the law system in Uiri works and yet Jesus contradicts that. Majourity of Uir citizens are Roman Catholic. Literally, punch someone and they get to punch you back according to Uir law. Shoot someone and you get shot back [by an executioner mostly]
d) If you feel this is evil then soul scans shall not be implemented in Uiri and this is the last of the discussion on soul scans from myself."

Rehabilitation is assuming that the individual was good at the start and that you are returning him to his original function. Believing that you can do this insinuates that you are a parent entity and that the one who needs to be rehabilitated is a child in need of correction. An adult who made his choice of action should be allowed to maintain the dignity of receiving the consequence of his action, otherwise you degrade him as a child and place yourself as his superior. If you do this, you are claiming to be better than the criminal by attempting to rewrite his psychological makeup, therefore you are claiming to be like a god.

If God exists, I think he would object that imperfect beings decide to deceive themselves into thinking that they are perfect. If you make the claim that you are indeed imperfect yet continue to behave as if perfection is within you then you are displaying an arrogance beyond measure. Either your soul scan is completely flawless in which case the imperfect inventor has created a perfect object that we must all submit to or your soul scan is in need of constant improvement in which case there is no sane adult who will willingly submit to such a device until he has been infantilized.

So the real questions to ask before we even conceive of accepting such a device are:

1st}Is the inventor perfect or imperfect? (if perfect, no device is needed)
2nd}Can an imperfect individual create perfection while still imperfect? (if so then perhaps he is not imperfect after all)

That is why I believe the introduction of such a device would condemn the very inventor of itself for being arrogant beyond imagination, assuming that such a device can actually be created. And if the device does not condemn such arrogance, then we all know that the device has failed in his primary function and only children will allow themselves to be manipulated into this honey-trap.

Spoken by a foreign scholar who has made ShogunKhan his home (Scholar X, adviser to Emperor Ceasar of the ShogunKhan)

a) Rehabilitation doesn't work IMHO
b) Revenge is logical from a logical point of view not necessarily from a moral/ethical point of view
c) The metaphor is basically how the law system in Uiri works and yet Jesus contradicts that. Majourity of Uir citizens are Roman Catholic. Literally, punch someone and they get to punch you back according to Uir law. Shoot someone and you get shot back [by an executioner mostly]
d) If you feel this is evil then soul scans shall not be implemented in Uiri and this is the last of the discussion on soul scans from myself."

a. strange, it's been working just fine here

b. you should tern to logic only when morals fail. even then, how is revenge logical? it does not make the pain go away, especially in serious situations. not only that, it also often causes other people pain and may make THEM seek revenge on you. how do you expect to change enemies to friends if you don't try? (unless your philosophy is "kill them all" :( )

c. ever herd of this thing called the ten commandments? or how about the golden rule? I am assuming that the Jesus of your local dimensions history probably mentions something along those lines. tell me if I'm wrong about that.

d. either provide a better argument, admit I am right and change your ways, or admit I am right and actively chose to do wrong. should you chose the third, i can't be sure that we will be able to stay on friendly terms :mad:

a. strange, it's been working just fine here

b. you should tern to logic only when morals fail. even then, how is revenge logical? it does not make the pain go away, especially in serious situations. not only that, it also often causes other people pain and may make THEM seek revenge on you. how do you expect to change enemies to friends if you don't try? (unless your philosophy is "kill them all" :( )

c. ever herd of this thing called the ten commandments? or how about the golden rule? I am assuming that the Jesus of your local dimensions history probably mentions something along those lines. tell me if I'm wrong about that.

d. either provide a better argument, admit I am right and change your ways, or admit I am right and actively chose to do wrong. should you chose the third, i can't be sure that we will be able to stay on friendly terms :mad:

a. Rehabilitation is an infringement on civil rights in the opininon of the Uir Government both past and present. The criminal should choose to be rehabilitated or it is an infrignement on his rights. Not that fines/imprisonment aren't but if a criminal doesn't want to change his ways brainwashing doesn't do much.

b. I agree that it doesn't make pain go away but it makes people 'even'. They have wronged and/or righted eachother the same number of times. Yes, revenge and quid pro quo go hand in hand

c. That is the irony of Uir law

d. I beleive I have provided better arguements and continued to do right still not admitting that you are rifht though. Keep in mind this soul scan has gone beyond being able to be implemented in Uiri.

Rehabilitation is assuming that the individual was good at the start and that you are returning him to his original function. Believing that you can do this insinuates that you are a parent entity and that the one who needs to be rehabilitated is a child in need of correction. An adult who made his choice of action should be allowed to maintain the dignity of receiving the consequence of his action, otherwise you degrade him as a child and place yourself as his superior. If you do this, you are claiming to be better than the criminal by attempting to rewrite his psychological makeup, therefore you are claiming to be like a god.

If God exists, I think he would object that imperfect beings decide to deceive themselves into thinking that they are perfect. If you make the claim that you are indeed imperfect yet continue to behave as if perfection is within you then you are displaying an arrogance beyond measure. Either your soul scan is completely flawless in which case the imperfect inventor has created a perfect object that we must all submit to or your soul scan is in need of constant improvement in which case there is no sane adult who will willingly submit to such a device until he has been infantilized.

So the real questions to ask before we even conceive of accepting such a device are:

1st}Is the inventor perfect or imperfect? (if perfect, no device is needed)
2nd}Can an imperfect individual create perfection while still imperfect? (if so then perhaps he is not imperfect after all)

That is why I believe the introduction of such a device would condemn the very inventor of itself for being arrogant beyond imagination, assuming that such a device can actually be created. And if the device does not condemn such arrogance, then we all know that the device has failed in his primary function and only children will allow themselves to be manipulated into this honey-trap.

Spoken by a foreign scholar who has made ShogunKhan his home (Scholar X, adviser to Emperor Ceasar of the ShogunKhan)

almost all beings have both good and evil in them. I have already stated this. which side is in control, however, is another story.
second of all I have already stated (multiple times :headbang: ) that that the decision would not be based on me alone BUT ON THE DECISION OF THE INDIVIDUAL NATION OR BY INTERNATIONAL VOTE. even individual nations would be encouraged to decide it by vote from their citizens

as to perfection, such a thing is rare. the only reason perfection is, in theory possible is because their is no such thing as the impossible. I have yet to encounter perfection. but you must agree that you can come close. a car is not a perfect way to travel because it requires time and energy, but it still gets the job done. should someone be borderline on the scale (that is not decided by me, then they will not be considered in need of rehab (unless they request it). but I am fairly sure that my tech is accurate enough to recognize a lunatic when it finds one.

a. Rehabilitation is an infringement on civil rights in the opininon of the Uir Government both past and present. The criminal should choose to be rehabilitated or it is an infrignement on his rights. Not that fines/imprisonment aren't but if a criminal doesn't want to change his ways brainwashing doesn't do much.

I agree that it doesn't make pain go away but it makes people 'even'. They have wronged and/or righted each other the same number of times. Yes, revenge and quid pro quo go hand in hand


most would prefer rehab. only the very worst would rather perpetual imprisonment. if i where being forced to do evil acts, then i would rather die so i understand these sentiments. You talk about it as though we would use hypnosis and drugs. we only teach lessons. if they can make a convincing argument as to why what they are doing is good rather than bad, then they are let go. if not, we try to teach them to regret their evil ways and become something better.

even? and this benefits the revenger how? he does not get anything from revenge except misery. the best he can get is the temporary feeling of victory. but in the end, it makes him no better than the person he got revenge on. if you believe otherwise, you have not known or heard about enough revenger takers.

most would prefer rehab. only the very worst would rather perpetual imprisonment. if i where being forced to do evil acts, then i would rather die so i understand these sentiments. You talk about it as though we would use hypnosis and drugs. we only teach lessons. if they can make a convincing argument as to why what they are doing is good rather than bad, then they are let go. if not, we try to teach them to regret their evil ways and become something better.

even? and this benefits the revenger how? he does not get anything from revenge except misery. the best he can get is the temporary feeling of victory. but in the end, it makes him no better than the person he got revenge on. if you believe otherwise, you have not known or heard about enough revenger takers.

Obviously our opinions differ greatly. Rehabilitation just repeatedly teaches them not to do bad. What are your methods specifically so that they do not repeat an offense? Maybe we can do a pilot program in Uiri

Revenge proves that they are equal. Revenge is not about being the better person, it is about retribution. Revenge probably seems like taking the law into your own hands and well, that is what it is. Revenge is retribution for what they did to you. You feel misery, they feel misery, if it is the same then they are equal. If one feels greater misery than it is not equal. If favours and misdeeds are equal than the people are equal and niether 'owes' the other.

Obviously our opinions differ greatly. Rehabilitation just repeatedly teaches them not to do bad. What are your methods specifically so that they do not repeat an offense? Maybe we can do a pilot program in Uiri

Revenge proves that they are equal. Revenge is not about being the better person, it is about retribution. Revenge probably seems like taking the law into your own hands and well, that is what it is. Revenge is retribution for what they did to you. You feel misery, they feel misery, if it is the same then they are equal. If one feels greater misery than it is not equal. If favours and misdeeds are equal than the people are equal and niether 'owes' the other.

We don't stick them in a classroom and fill their heads with sunshine and lollipops until they want to slit their wrists if thats what your thinking :rolleyes: (though we did subject really evil enemies who failed the rehab process to hours of teletubies and Barney :eek: until they were begging to spill enemy secrets, though this is currently in debate at home as to weather this is too cruel a method)

instead, we surround them with moral people (while keeping a close eye on them of course) and hope that they make friends with someone. if they can care about even one person, then we are already half way done. we also provide counseling to help give advice on how someone should handle a situation. if they consider murder as a solution, we provide alternative, less violent methods to solve the problem.

as I currently see your reasoning, it seems that you feel two wrongs make a right. I don't condone the spread of misery just because you have it. that is how my arch enemy started out before she became what she is now. however, I have known people to fist fight and because of their consent fighting, became the best of friends. so it is possible that your opinion may be based on culture. for you, a fist fight may be like a friendly arm wrestling match. killing may be a little too final in his instance.

In our culture, it is a great honor to die in battle, even greater if it is a friend that does it! We are a warrior society and when some of us have reached a certain stage in life or a certain skill level in capabilities in battle and mystical powers we can engage in a duel to the death where both parties agree. It is a great spectacle and the ultimate skills are shown in such battles. Both are considered victors because one showed the ultimate courage and moved on to the next world and the other by being fated to be that much better at that moment.

There is an illustration from the real world chronicles about the Japanese Samurais who committed sepuku. There they had the best friend ready to chop off the head to keep honor. We are doing something of a similar nature.

We constantly strive to improve ourselves and we can compare our skill in a technique from its past use and its present use.

Opponents who are considered neutral that we dispatch are treated as you treat your dead.

Opponents who are considered enemies that we dispatch end up serving society despite themselves by contributing to our currency.

Any of our citizens who have engaged in a crime have this choice of duel knowing that they will be treated as an enemy. Any of our citizens who engage in activities that are motivated by fear, like murder are no longer considered citizens and they tend to leave very quickly before the rest of the population discovers an enemy invader. Hence our crime rates are extremely low, we watch ourselves, we police ourselves, we are all considered military warriors. We have no desire to submit to a machine that will take away our personal judgments on how to behave.

In our culture, it is a great honor to die in battle, even greater if it is a friend that does it! We are a warrior society and when some of us have reached a certain stage in life or a certain skill level in capabilities in battle and mystical powers we can engage in a duel to the death where both parties agree. It is a great spectacle and the ultimate skills are shown in such battles. Both are considered victors because one showed the ultimate courage and moved on to the next world and the other by being fated to be that much better at that moment.

There is an illustration from the real world chronicles about the Japanese Samurais who committed sepuku. There they had the best friend ready to chop off the head to keep honor. We are doing something of a similar nature.

We constantly strive to improve ourselves and we can compare our skill in a technique from its past use and its present use.

Opponents who are considered neutral that we dispatch are treated as you treat your dead.

Opponents who are considered enemies that we dispatch end up serving society despite themselves by contributing to our currency.

Any of our citizens who have engaged in a crime have this choice of duel knowing that they will be treated as an enemy. Any of our citizens who engage in activities that are motivated by fear, like murder are no longer considered citizens and they tend to leave very quickly before the rest of the population discovers an enemy invader. Hence our crime rates are extremely low, we watch ourselves, we police ourselves, we are all considered military warriors. We have no desire to submit to a machine that will take away our personal judgments on how to behave.

what you speak of I partially agree upon. tournaments and duels are good. it produces friendly rivalry and makes the rivals stronger. I don't agree with killing the opponent though. for one thing, if you kill your toughest rival, you must wait till someone stronger comes around to give you a worthy fight. this killing duel is not the type of thing the scans are for though. it detects the kind of people who would kill in cold blood. a battle fought in hate is not a pleasant thing to see. as opposed to what you speak of. you should try to rehabilitate enemies and teach them this honor you speak of. If this will cause currency problems, then you may wish to change your currency. ( not to mention enemy bones must be very annoying and bulky to carry around.) perhaps a honor point system based on rating of strength? you could hold a battle between citizens and award a limited amount of points they may use until the next tournament. you can set the time for these tournaments and decide how many points are won based on strength, skill, and honor in combat.

We don't stick them in a classroom and fill their heads with sunshine and lollipops until they want to slit their wrists if thats what your thinking :rolleyes: (though we did subject really evil enemies who failed the rehab process to hours of teletubies and Barney :eek: until they were begging to spill enemy secrets, though this is currently in debate at home as to weather this is too cruel a method)

instead, we surround them with moral people (while keeping a close eye on them of course) and hope that they make friends with someone. if they can care about even one person, then we are already half way done. we also provide counseling to help give advice on how someone should handle a situation. if they consider murder as a solution, we provide alternative, less violent methods to solve the problem.

as I currently see your reasoning, it seems that you feel two wrongs make a right. I don't condone the spread of misery just because you have it. that is how my arch enemy started out before she became what she is now. however, I have known people to fist fight and because of their consent fighting, became the best of friends. so it is possible that your opinion may be based on culture. for you, a fist fight may be like a friendly arm wrestling match. killing may be a little too final in his instance.

You obviously do not know the Uir. We are probably the least compassionate of many cultures and don't really give a damn about anything unless there is something in it for them. Most Uir who would be subjected to rehab would fake liking someone and try to suggest as humane methods of dealing with problems as possible in order to be released. Uir are very good liars.

A fist fight, if the number of hits are equal is no big deal and as long as the issue has been resolved between the fighting parties there is no need to get the police or such involved as it would be seen as a waste of the law system. Although not quite like a friednly arm wrestling match, some Uir children do fight for fun and it can be fun. Killing would be punished though, usually with the life in prison with no chance of parole if there is no DNA evidence and there aren't a large number of witnesses. By large number I mean 100 or so.

So, rehabilitation doesn't work in Uiri for a reason and two wrongs make equals, not a right, just equals. Quid pro quo

You obviously do not know the Uir. We are probably the least compassionate of many cultures and don't really give a damn about anything unless there is something in it for them. Most Uir who would be subjected to rehab would fake liking someone and try to suggest as humane methods of dealing with problems as possible in order to be released. Uir are very good liars.

A fist fight, if the number of hits are equal is no big deal and as long as the issue has been resolved between the fighting parties there is no need to get the police or such involved as it would be seen as a waste of the law system. Although not quite like a friednly arm wrestling match, some Uir children do fight for fun and it can be fun. Killing would be punished though, usually with the life in prison with no chance of parole if there is no DNA evidence and there aren't a large number of witnesses. By large number I mean 100 or so.

So, rehabilitation doesn't work in Uiri for a reason and two wrongs make equals, not a right, just equals. Quid pro quo

can't fool a soul scan unless you use very complicated methods (OOC:such as I have mentioned in the UN post)
IC: it is understandable that you may want to settle many disputes through fighting. we have people who are battle nuts ourselves (I'm part one myself ;) ) what we detect for are traits that could lead to fighting a "dishonorable" fight. surely you must agree that stabbing someone in the back or beating a defenseless child are bad forms of fighting. I like to think that people who do partake in such behavior are often savable. I am wiling to admit that your notions of equivalent exchange are perhaps a part of your culture, but some exceptions should be made. the rehab system can save people rather than send them to jail to become worse just so they can possibly escape.

OOC-->Read "Discipline and Punish: The Birth of the Prison" by Foucault. The good intentions of rehabilitation actually become enslavement of one's soul. Foucault argues that we have gone from physical punishment into control of one's soul through the concept of rehabilitation. A human being should not presume to have the power nor the authority to fashion another human being's soul. Pre 18th century societies would find this assumption and its practice utterly demonic. Plato and his contemporaries would consider it insanity. Your soul scan only presumes to put power into a human made machine to transform a person's soul. Destroy Sauron's ring before it destroys you.

OOC-->Read "Discipline and Punish: The Birth of the Prison" by Foucault. The good intentions of rehabilitation actually become enslavement of one's soul. Foucault argues that we have gone from physical punishment into control of one's soul through the concept of rehabilitation. A human being should not presume to have the power nor the authority to fashion another human being's soul. Pre 18th century societies would find this assumption and its practice utterly demonic. Plato and his contemporaries would consider it insanity. Your soul scan only presumes to put power into a human made machine to transform a person's soul. Destroy Sauron's ring before it destroys you.

as stated, I don't modify souls in terms of personality, memory, good/evil balance, ect. I also have explained that I don't use the conventional methods that your referring to. we don't stick them in a padded room, put them on medication, and put them in rehab classes. we simply treat them nicely. that is all. the theory is "monkey see monkey do". treat them with kindness and they will learn kindness. (OOC: saw a similar method used on rescued dog fight dogs. you put them in a community of normal dogs and they become normal. same concept.)IC: if we stick them in prisons, they will remain in communities of people who are not so good and become worse than when they went in.

ps. I see your history is similar to the one of my original dimension of origin, but tell me HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT RING!!! the ring was not actually destroyed. We captured it and are suppressing it in a secure research facility. the power of the thing is not in itself bad, it's that stupid soul that he put in it thats corrupting it the ring could do good for that world if we could JUST GET HIM OUT!!!:headbang:. He doesn't want out though. because he went and split his soul in half like that, we can't give him a body. even if we could, he is beyond rehab. that means if he comes out, it's a one way ticket to his world's hell. can't have an evil ring laying around, destroying it would be a waste and could infuse him into the land, and geting him out would send him on his merry way to damnation. and to top it all off, he is being suborn. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!! ... sorry, started ranting about some of my own problems and got completely off topic.

[OOC: Kahanistan does accept the UN as existing, though it sees them as spineless and hampered by their own regulations, much like the RL UN.]OOC: Yup. That's pretty much how the NSUN operates. ;)

can't fool a soul scan unless you use very complicated methods (OOC:such as I have mentioned in the UN post)
IC: it is understandable that you may want to settle many disputes through fighting. we have people who are battle nuts ourselves (I'm part one myself ;) ) what we detect for are traits that could lead to fighting a "dishonorable" fight. surely you must agree that stabbing someone in the back or beating a defenseless child are bad forms of fighting. I like to think that people who do partake in such behavior are often savable. I am wiling to admit that your notions of equivalent exchange are perhaps a part of your culture, but some exceptions should be made. the rehab system can save people rather than send them to jail to become worse just so they can possibly escape.

Yes, but thinking you can rehabilitate someone enough so that they pass a soul scan when they failed the first time is an obvious breach of civil rights if the people don't consent to rehab. Of course, that brings the whole if they want to go chances are probable that they can change unless it's pedophillic tendencies in which case I believe rehab has little effect even where rehab has had success.

A 'dishonourable' fight is one where the one stabbed in the back doesn't have the backstabber backstabbed. This would probably happen although the law system would probably end up involved in it. What scenario for the 'defenseless' child. It is possible that the child's parents were killed by the same person who was beating the small child. Chances are atleast one parent would have a gun on him/her and the child would be able to shoot the attacker with practically no reprecussions.

Please elaborate on the specific scenario of the defenseless child.

Yes, but thinking you can rehabilitate someone enough so that they pass a soul scan when they failed the first time is an obvious breach of civil rights if the people don't consent to rehab. Of course, that brings the whole if they want to go chances are probable that they can change unless it's pedophillic tendencies in which case I believe rehab has little effect even where rehab has had success.

A 'dishonourable' fight is one where the one stabbed in the back doesn't have the backstabber backstabbed. This would probably happen although the law system would probably end up involved in it. What scenario for the 'defenseless' child. It is possible that the child's parents were killed by the same person who was beating the small child. Chances are atleast one parent would have a gun on him/her and the child would be able to shoot the attacker with practically no reprecussions.

Please elaborate on the specific scenario of the defenseless child.

kinda similar to the way criminals have a tendency not to consent to imprisonment. as for pedophilia, someone turn-ons are not a crime. preforming sexual acts on someone against their will or tricking someone who is ignorant of such things ire crimes. If they want children, they need to either find children who are completely mentally mature in that aspect (sounds weird, I know, but they do exist. I have known some races that look like children but have been alive for hundreds of years.) who are willing, or keep it to themselves. the scan would detect people who have rape tendencies. in short, most only need a positive outlet rather than rehab.

when I talked about dishonorable fights, I refer to fights were one person is forced to fight and has no chance of winning. ex. gang of thugs tie up man and beat him up or playground bully beats up a first grader.(assuming that the victum dosn't have "special" traits of course)

the scan would prevent someone from killing the parent in the first place. you are entitled to self defense if someone does evade the scan. but you should try to avoid killing if you can.
also, there may be no legal repercussions, but their are mental ones and (if the criminals place of origin has an afterlife, possible spiritual ones as well)

kinda similar to the way criminals have a tendency not to consent to imprisonment. as for pedophilia, someone turn-ons are not a crime. preforming sexual acts on someone against their will or tricking someone who is ignorant of such things ire crimes. If they want children, they need to either find children who are completely mentally mature in that aspect (sounds weird, I know, but they do exist. I have known some races that look like children but have been alive for hundreds of years.) who are willing, or keep it to themselves. the scan would detect people who have rape tendencies. in short, most only need a positive outlet rather than rehab.

when I talked about dishonorable fights, I refer to fights were one person is forced to fight and has no chance of winning. ex. gang of thugs tie up man and beat him up or playground bully beats up a first grader.(assuming that the victum dosn't have "special" traits of course)

the scan would prevent someone from killing the parent in the first place. you are entitled to self defense if someone does evade the scan. but you should try to avoid killing if you can.
also, there may be no legal repercussions, but their are mental ones and (if the criminals place of origin has an afterlife, possible spiritual ones as well)

OK, but imprisonement or fine gives them a choice. Of course, rehab is more than just imprisonement, it is correction as well. While impulses may not be a crime, acting on those impulses may be. Keep in mind, Uiri is what one would call MT so finding mini 14 y/o's is kind of hard. I believe that a soul scan would detect if someone is so pedophillic that if they are near a child they won't be able to control themselves which what I was talking about mostly. An alternative could be to move to areas where such tendencies are legal.

Well, the law system is there for those kinds of fights.

While in principle yes, I was just giving an example of a scenario. I am not entirely sure of the mental repercussions.

OK, but imprisonement or fine gives them a choice. Of course, rehab is more than just imprisonement, it is correction as well. While impulses may not be a crime, acting on those impulses may be. Keep in mind, Uiri is what one would call MT so finding mini 14 y/o's is kind of hard. I believe that a soul scan would detect if someone is so pedophillic that if they are near a child they won't be able to control themselves which what I was talking about mostly. An alternative could be to move to areas where such tendencies are legal.

Well, the law system is there for those kinds of fights.

While in principle yes, I was just giving an example of a scenario. I am not entirely sure of the mental repercussions.

who said anything about imprisonment? I explained that my method is not like that. twice. I understand your sentiments though in terms of your lacking. we have the tech to grow soulless bodies for body replacement purposes should death occur in battle. we also grow them and give simple programing to some for certain places of ... specialized interest to those of a particular age ;) ;) .we can perhaps establish some trade with you if you are interested (OOC: I assume that if you are even acknowledging this discussion and the existence of FT, then this would not be too much of a problem. otherwise, we will have to consider that you are taking a "what if" point of view in this discussion)
lack of control falls into a different category altogether if you can't control yourself but want to, that requires traditional rehab methods. of course if can control yourself but chose not to, then it will be detected and using the nontraditional method, corrected.

as to mental repercussions... well, how would you fell if you had just killed someone for the first time, especially if you were a child?

Well it doesn't really matter what anyone argues with you because you have a "poof" device that solves any objection that comes up.

Its like you would state that you have a fruit that will cover all possible nutritional requirements, so we can stop all agriculture and all hunting. Someone asks if it will cover thirst as well, you say yes. A person gives an objection that this will eliminate flavor. "Poof" your fruit is now telepathic and can give the flavor that anyone imagines. A person objects that relying on only one food staple will be disastrous if the climate shifts or if there is any disease that eliminates the fruit production and "poof" your miracle fruit is able to be injected with all cures, and you say that the fruit can be grown in any environment under any condition.

I mean if you want to argue for some catch-all device that has no flaws and you recreate the laws of the universe to satisfy the legitimacy of the device, there is not much sense in disagreeing with you.

I ask you to read Foucault on how we are claiming rehabilitation to be the cure-all and that it is a pseudo-solution and you end up saying that you don't want to punish in a prison but rather have a proper rehabilitation with a psychologist which guides the criminal back into proper behavior. Don't you realize that is exactly what Foucault is arguing against? The prison system is designed to avoid the punishment of the whippings, the hangings, the beatings. The prison system is designed to modify behavior by making the prisoners feel like they are being watched at all times and thus modify their behavior through psychological manipulation.

You want to avoid the disaster of the prison system because you present facts that the system does not work and your solution is the very same excuse that invented the prison system in the first place.

Well it doesn't really matter what anyone argues with you because you have a "poof" device that solves any objection that comes up.

Its like you would state that you have a fruit that will cover all possible nutritional requirements, so we can stop all agriculture and all hunting. Someone asks if it will cover thirst as well, you say yes. A person gives an objection that this will eliminate flavor. "Poof" your fruit is now telepathic and can give the flavor that anyone imagines. A person objects that relying on only one food staple will be disastrous if the climate shifts or if there is any disease that eliminates the fruit production and "poof" your miracle fruit is able to be injected with all cures, and you say that the fruit can be grown in any environment under any condition.

I mean if you want to argue for some catch-all device that has no flaws and you recreate the laws of the universe to satisfy the legitimacy of the device, there is not much sense in disagreeing with you.

I ask you to read Foucault on how we are claiming rehabilitation to be the cure-all and that it is a pseudo-solution and you end up saying that you don't want to punish in a prison but rather have a proper rehabilitation with a psychologist which guides the criminal back into proper behavior. Don't you realize that is exactly what Foucault is arguing against? The prison system is designed to avoid the punishment of the whippings, the hangings, the beatings. The prison system is designed to modify behavior by making the prisoners feel like they are being watched at all times and thus modify their behavior through psychological manipulation.

You want to avoid the disaster of the prison system because you present facts that the system does not work and your solution is the very same excuse that invented the prison system in the first place.

If people learn to be good and obey the law out of fear, then there is not much point to teaching them at all. also, my rehab is different than the traditional one see (OOC:one or two pages back). IC:while I may not have herd of this author of which you speak, I find it probable that he uses the traditional method in his argument and therefore makes the it irrelevant. (if i am wrong in this, then please give me a summery of what system he describes as well as a few of the flaws.)

all a datavice is is a hand-held computer that is networked to others and connected to the owners mind/soul. it is used to store spells, enhance the owners natural abilities, and transform physical objects into energy and store them like files. other than object storage and enhancement, it's just an advanced computer.

Interesting idea with the fruit. Unfortunately, we have not found anything like that to occur in nature. putting all nutrients in it naturally would be difficult but, in time, possible. datavices could probably effect taste perceptions easily. could extract diseases I suppose, though we would have to understand each one first. not to mention the sheer size the fruit would have to be. that would require a lot from the plant and be hard to eat. climate would be a major problem of course. many adaptations contradict each other. a cactus that holds water would not do good in a rainforest, maybe if we could get it to alter itself based on environment. that still leaves texture, cooking as an art form, and creation of new flavors by experimenting with different foods. the idea is worth looking into though, I will give this some serious thought .

OOC-->

Foucault made simple to understand specifically for you.

Scale of 1 to 10 on desirable ways to eliminate evil. 10 being the best way.
Before, with the punishment system we had a 5. 200 years go by and we develop rehabilitation. The scale is now at 3. You and I both agree that 3 is terrible. You use the same argument as what was used over the last 200 years which changes the scale from 5 to 3. They also were well-intentioned and they wanted to tip the scale towards 10. You want the scale to head towards 10. I am telling you that the end result of your "manipulation" will tip the scale to 1. You keep repeating the same arguments of the past by the people who believed that they could bring it closer to 10 when the reality of history proves that the scale lowered to 3. Instead of admitting failure, you want to continue down the same road, because 3 is bad.

Look up Foucault, he is well known.

OOC-->

Foucault made simple to understand specifically for you.

Scale of 1 to 10 on desirable ways to eliminate evil. 10 being the best way.
Before, with the punishment system we had a 5. 200 years go by and we develop rehabilitation. The scale is now at 3. You and I both agree that 3 is terrible. You use the same argument as what was used over the last 200 years which changes the scale from 5 to 3. They also were well-intentioned and they wanted to tip the scale towards 10. You want the scale to head towards 10. I am telling you that the end result of your "manipulation" will tip the scale to 1. You keep repeating the same arguments of the past by the people who believed that they could bring it closer to 10 when the reality of history proves that the scale lowered to 3. Instead of admitting failure, you want to continue down the same road, because 3 is bad.

Look up Foucault, he is well known.

Their is still something that you are not taking into account. we are not trying to make people merely follow the law. Foucault makes the case that people will be good when they are not sure if they are being watched. this means that they are good because they think that they would be caught and behave out of fear of punishment. we want them to be good even if they KNOW that they could get away with it. another thing is that his thoughts are based on theory alone. he does not use evidence. also manipulation is not the right word for it. we simply stick a bad person with many good people and hope that they change for the better.

Foucault doesn't make that case at all. He is merely stating that psychologists believed behavior could be modified positively if the would-be criminal was in an environment where his actions were always under scrutiny so that he would willingly do the right thing under social pressure. Foucault didn't say that this is the answer, he is saying that is what psychologists wanted to replace the former system.

Foucault is stating that this form of psychological control is inadequate and does not work at all in the intended wishes. You want to take a primitive form of mental control and perfect it even more through brainwashing using a community as a basis to change the person's behavior, instead of an invisible watcher.

You keep saying that you do not want to do the same mistakes of the prison system, yet you keep using the same arguments they used a century ago when they tried to introduce the rehabilitation method instead of the punishing method. (you just call yesterday's rehabilitation methods as today's punishing methods)

It didn't work and you admit it. So stop repeating the same mistake.

If you really don't think rehab is the best method, then what is? the reason this form of rehab works is for the same reason prisons make people worse. criminals become worse because they either have what one might call "bully power" or they are the victims of horrible treatment by the bullies. when the bullies get out, they feel that they have the connections and leadership abilities to continue crime even better than before, while the victims go and kill and rob because of a lack of hope and shear malice, not to mention to get that sensation of power that the bullies inflicted on them (monkey see monkey do). this rehab, however, shows that though their past is messy, they can still turn over a new leaf. it also shows them why you should care about other people for many don't understand concepts such as forgiveness, love, mercy, pity, or charity.

what you are calling "brainwashing" is the same scenario as living in a well respected neighborhood and simply living. it is the same thing as going to school and hanging out with a crowd (except the crowds you can choose from don't include gangs, snobs,ect.). you almost can't call it rehab. the only thing that makes it rehab is that we only let very moral people in to live with the person, and try to select people who are likely to understand and possibly get along with the person. other than that, it's more like some of these reality tv shows (I'm still getting over Who Wants to Be a Terraformer? thats coming this December) or a college dorm.

if you have a better method other than killing them off, let me know ;)

OOC: Finals approachith. time I have not to read your books of wisdom. wikipedia and spark notes I must.)