NationStates Jolt Archive

Just curious if anybody was interested in one. Off-site, obviously, due to The Rules.
I dont want to go into great detail until I get some confirmed interest, but realism and accurate population figures would be required, no NS populations/GDPs involved at all. More keyed to role-playing and free-form warfare than figuring out how many points you should invest in developing agriculture in Dickistan and so forth.
I'd say we'll need at least five claims before getting started, preferably at least three of the Great Powers (Austria, Prussia, Russia, Great Britain, France.)
I myself am thinking about Russia, if I can find some good info for it.

I would be interested and I would take Britain as 1st option France as second.

I would suggest something akin to the Empire in Arms the boardgame. but Rping the battles and diplomacy.
However if you want other detail I have a significant Napoleonic library can draw info from.

Telegram me if you need info.

Regards
Barry

I'll take Russia.

I would be interested and I would take Britain as 1st option France as second.

I would suggest something akin to the Empire in Arms the boardgame. but Rping the battles and diplomacy.
However if you want other detail I have a significant Napoleonic library can draw info from.

Telegram me if you need info.

Regards
Barry

Well, we REALLY need a France, so unless somebody else claims it, would you mind taking it?

I'll take Russia.

Already occupied, as per OP >_>

http://www.populstat.info/

I'm not too intrested, no offense, its a good idea, but that should help with finding populations of old.

My only issue with Populstat is that:
A) You have to look up the population of EACH STATE and...
B) Some of those states dont exist anymore. I doubt Populstat as the population of the Khannate of Kokand in its archives :P

I have no problems being France.

Now down to the mechanics of how this will work. Will it be by email, Rp or forum.
Some time ago I started doing a email campaign, set in Napoleonic period but using a fictious map. The main problem always came around to resolving battles conclusively and fairly.
Mathmatical solutions are the logical choice, but one needs an adjudicator, I could do that if the numbers of players warrant it, but then I could not be a player.

Sometime ago I set out to work out a Napoleonic email game, but real life got in the way here is what I was working on:-

Nation under Arms – Email Campaign


1) The Concept of the Player and the Ruling classes
2) Royal Family 3) Politics
a) What are Political points
b) Income & Expenditure of Political Points
c) Political stability zones
d) Political aims
e) Revolution

4) Diplomacy
f) What Diplomatic Points allow you to do
g) Income of Diplomatic Points
h) Expenditure of Diplomatic Points
i) Diplomatic aims
j) Diplomatic Agreements
5) Economics
a. Raw materials
b. Finance
c. Manpower
d. Production
e. Colonies
f. Trading

6) Military
a. Recruiting
b. Equipping
c. Training
d. Grades
e. War


Concept of the player and the ruling classes

The Player is everything and everyone in his country. He represents the Royal family, the Government, the economics of the nation and he is the military. He is the ruling class, he is also ironically all classes of his nation. It is possible if his Nation is forced into revolution, that he will replace himself as the previous King by a new inspirational revolutionary leader.
In most cases he represents the will of the nation, though from time to time there may be dissenting points of view both within his country as well as externally.

The Players actions are always designed twofold:
1) To protect and defend his “will” of his nation. (ie those of the ruling classes).
2) To exert his “will” on other countries. (Those of the people of neighbouring countries).

There was much more, however it is several pages long.It came bogged down in detail and remains unfinished. It is far more detailed than you intend I feel, however the fact remains the sticking point will be the battles and conclusive results.

Im hoping you have a simpler solution, but the basics of this work remain if you need it.

Regards
Barry

Offsite forum, most likely. Basically a mini-NS, only with historically accurate (more or less >_>) nations.
I was also thinking, maybe the early 1700's would be a better period for the RP. Less focus on 'Hey, lets all take out France!' and more freedom to pick your allies and enemies, plus less certainty as to who the strongest nations are. And Sweden as a great power :D

Sounds good. What countries are up for grabs?

Everywhere except Russia. Rechburg has France unless somebody else wants it, in which case I think he'll take the UK.

EDIT:
Actually, if we're going early 18th century, then France isnt as vital, so I THINK Rechburg can switch to the UK even if we dont get a France.

I'll take the Confed of the Rhine, if that's okay.

If we do a Napoleonic RP, I imagine we'll start some time in the 1790's, so the the Cofed. of the Rhine wont exist...
Would Prussia work?

If we do a Napoleonic RP, I imagine we'll start some time in the 1790's, so the the Cofed. of the Rhine wont exist...
Would Prussia work?

As in "Prussia, Kingdom of"? Sweet. We'll have that.

'Course the Kingdom thereof. Where else would we be talking about? :P
Done. Thats three great powers, now we just need two others.

Also, anybody have any opinions on late Napoleonic vs. early 1700's?

I would like France.

I would like France.

Great. Just one more and I'll make the forum.

My suggestion would be starting in around 1780's, any earlier and you get involved in the seven year war period.
Perhaps having a France around the revolutionary period.
I would suggest some restrictions on how countries "act", at least in the initial stages. For example France has revolutionary issues, England has issues in America. Russia was diverted by Turkey etc etc.
The restrictions could perhaps be reflected in rules that limit British recruitment for Europe (because of the American war of Independence), France has lots of troops but most of low quality, Austria was restricted in what it could do because of Turkey and it was still poor recovering from the seven year war period.

Hmmm, but the early 1700's (1710 or so, I was thinking) give us things like the Great Northern War and Spain as a still-viable power (though no longer dominant of course. The Spanish Empire was still a contender until the 1720's or so).
Plus, the Qing Empire is probably at its peak of power

A period where there were so many new and upcomming powers battling it out with the old guard has to be somewhat interesting :P

I dont have a problem with 1700, but of course now you are talking of the Malboroughian times not Napoleonic, which came a century later.
But it will give you a more prominent Spain, France and Sweden.

I could take Sweden.

At least marlbourgh's time may be easier to RP, since it involved slow marches and constant sieges occasionally broken up with half-hearted battles. Wars were very much limited to campaigning season, which suits Rping quite well. The off campaign season allows us to scheme and malign each other.
Though good maps may be a problem unless we use fictious ones.
If you are developing a map I would suggest movement by provinces rather than roads.
One shouldnt forget if doing 1700's Holland needs to be played as it played a prominent part in history at that time.

I dont have a problem with 1700, but of course now you are talking of the Malboroughian times not Napoleonic, which came a century later.
But it will give you a more prominent Spain, France and Sweden.

At least marlbourgh's time may be easier to RP, since it involved slow marches and constant sieges occasionally broken up with half-hearted battles. Wars were very much limited to campaigning season, which suits Rping quite well. The off campaign season allows us to scheme and malign each other.
Though good maps may be a problem unless we use fictious ones.
If you are developing a map I would suggest movement by provinces rather than roads.
One shouldnt forget if doing 1700's Holland needs to be played as it played a prominent part in history at that time.

Depends on where you are, I think. The Great Northern War wasnt exactly slow, and I wouldnt call Poltava a half-hearted battle :P
I've already found a good Europe map (though its a few years off, but the only major issue is that it shows the Baltic States as Swedish),

I could take Sweden.

Great!
Im working on translating the map into a lovely MSpaint rendition that'll be easier to modify in the event of territorial change.

Good news about the map, well done.

In regard to my remark about half hearted battles,you are right of course in that there were some significant battles, but when you look at the decades that this period covered, the large battles or at least the notable ones do tend to pale in existence. More often than not it was march, counter march and siege work.

Do we have a Holland and Spain yet?
Depending on the numbers you plan you could include a Bavaria which played a vital role, later in the period.

You know, as this is an Earth, we wouldn't have to have these wars as such - they may or may not happen dependant on the players - as I'm sure you know, the aim of Earth's is to deviate from history.

Bavaria is on the map, yes. I sort of lumped most of Central Germany into a single 'Small German States' entity because it would be impossible to get all the states in with MSpaint, since most of them are about the size of a pixle. I got both Saxonies in though, and Bavaria, as well as a few others.
The borders arent PERFECTLY accurate, but they dont really need to be anyway. Most maps of the era show different borders anyway, especially for the Mughals, Safavids and Qing.

If anybody happens to have a good knowledge of where colonies were in this era I'd be glad to let them fill in any places I missed once I post the map. I think I can get most of the major stuff though. Like the Empire of Fez.

You know, as this is an Earth, we wouldn't have to have these wars as such - they may or may not happen dependant on the players - as I'm sure you know, the aim of Earth's is to deviate from history.

You are quite correct is shouldnt go the way history did, indeed I hope it doesnt, that is waht makes it so appealing.
I have to confess the Empire of Fez sent me scurrying for my books.

You know, as this is an Earth, we wouldn't have to have these wars as such - they may or may not happen dependant on the players - as I'm sure you know, the aim of Earth's is to deviate from history.

I was thinking that, up until the present, history would've happened as is. It gives us something to base the RP off of instead of standing around awkwardly for the first few years waiting for somebody to do something silly. As it is, most of Europe is watching the Great Northern War with some interest, and everybody east of Germany and west of the Urals is on one side or another.

You are quite correct is shouldnt go the way history did, indeed I hope it doesnt, that is waht makes it so appealing.
I have to confess the Empire of Fez sent me scurrying for my books.

Its basically Morrocco, minus the Spanish influence.

Anybody here happen to have a map of Africa c.1700? I feel kinda guilty about just leaving it blank what with all the empires which apparently existed there about this time. It just looks kinda...blank south of the Sahara, with a little red dot for Cape Town and a few strips for the Empire of Zanzibar.

Heres the map thus far:
http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldmapql4.gif

Any blatant errors? I wasnt too sure, but I think the only European presence in India right now is in a few cities, ya?

A very good map, like it a lot.
From here I guess there will be mechanics, where or how things will move.

Im thinking for example Britain sends troops or trades with its US colonies, someone wants to intercept that shipping, do we simply Rp that it was intercepted.
Ships at that time travelling to the US generally went in a circular route to the US. South to the Azores, use the trade winds across the Atlantic from there and then the southern winds from the Caribbean area. The route home was northerly.
Im also wondering how we can "win lose provinces", the map doesnt reflect provincial bounderies. Should we perhaps Each country has a "list" or a number of provinces that we can simply add or deduct from the country, similarly the colonies.
Im thinking populations will be hard to determine for this period.

Yes you are right, India was just starting to be impacted by Europeans in a significant way, so colonies are small and Indian Armies are huge and erratic.

BTW despite me seeming to be raising problems its because I think this has huge potential as a enjoyable game and you are to be congratulated for the get go, I would rather see it done right at the beginning rather than stumble on problems later.
I will see what I can find regarding populations, but I suspect it will be arbitary considering the lack of census undertakings.

My suggestion for Afica is we leave it except for the Northern coast (Egypt Libya Morrocco and the Cape region, otherwise like Dr Livingstone we are likely to get buried in a swamp of tribal/ethnic uniitelligible irrelevant details.

If someone gets a colony in Kenya, then we can worry about it; but perhaps interior Africa should be let go and left blank.

I'm thinking that the map will be modified based on the terms of treaties. You dont just deal in provinces, but cities, regions, etc. etc.
And yeah, shipping can be intercepted within reasonable bounds, obviously a total blockade of the Atlantic is impossible, but a concerted effort in the Carribean can be made, after all, this is the Golden Age of Piracy.

If possible, I think we can get away with approximate numbers off Populstat. I dont like it, but theyre pretty much the only option.

As for Africa...there are some quite large empires there, right now the Kong Empire and some other fellows are pretty powerful. I just cant find maps for 'em -_-

I'm a little late, here, but I might direct you towards Diplomacy, the board game for a rule system that would closely emulate the era. You wouldn't have campaigning seasons, but it would be pretty close to Napoleonic era warfare.

Anyway, I'll take Austria-Hungary if it hasn't already been taken. Ottoman Empire, otherwise.

Yes I agree populstat is not good for us because it doesnt cover the bounderies we need to have, for example Austria gets approx 9m, but that doesnt cover historical boundaries including Hungary etc which is bound to increase Austrias pop by roughly another 3-4 m.

I think before we do pop, we determine the countries we have and then work from there.

I dont have the diplomacy rules, tho I do remember it was a good game.

The more I think about it, the more I think it wouldn't work without actually just playing a game of diplomacy and RPing that. Due to a unified Germany and Italy, it would take heavy modification, so it was a bad suggestion on my part.

A map of 1700 Europe for you. Light gray is "neutrals." (IE. Weaker than <INSERT COUNTRY NAME HERE> beer.)

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7839/mapyf0.png

I'm a little late, here, but I might direct you towards Diplomacy, the board game for a rule system that would closely emulate the era. You wouldn't have campaigning seasons, but it would be pretty close to Napoleonic era warfare.

Anyway, I'll take Austria-Hungary if it hasn't already been taken. Ottoman Empire, otherwise.

I've heard of Diplomacy, but I'm going for more of a free-form RP than a rule-based one. Like NationStates, but a little more restricted.

One Austria-Hungary confirmed.

The more I think about it, the more I think it wouldn't work without actually just playing a game of diplomacy and RPing that. Due to a unified Germany and Italy, it would take heavy modification, so it was a bad suggestion on my part.

S'alright.

Yes I agree populstat is not good for us because it doesnt cover the bounderies we need to have, for example Austria gets approx 9m, but that doesnt cover historical boundaries including Hungary etc which is bound to increase Austrias pop by roughly another 3-4 m.

I think before we do pop, we determine the countries we have and then work from there.

I dont have the diplomacy rules, tho I do remember it was a good game.

Eh, all you have to do is add up the states. Some of them have portions of other areas, so Poland would add, say, half the population of Belarus. Not exactly accurate, but again, perfect accuracy isnt required. This is just for fun, after all.

Also, forum is up:
http://z15.invisionfree.com/Earth_1700/

Lets keep this discussion here, though. It'll keep the thread bumped.

Another image from EU3 c. 1700.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6392/map2ru4.jpg

PS. EU3 sucks.

Ok so what about army and navy strengths, also fortresses. There were a lot of them in Nor-west France and the low countirs.

Army/navys start at historical strength, or as close as you can make them. I took the Russian Navy numbers from 1722 and reduced them a bit, for example.
If you cant find numbers, we'll just work on what we think is a good number.

Army/navys start at historical strength, or as close as you can make them. I took the Russian Navy numbers from 1722 and reduced them a bit, for example.
If you cant find numbers, we'll just work on what we think is a good number.

As far as accuracy goes, I didn't check the navy, but your army was almost three times bigger than it was in 1700 (which is what I used for the date even though now you said 1710 in the date thread). And it consisted mostly of infantry instead of cavalry.

Also, we're using Popstat afterall?

As far as accuracy goes, I didn't check the navy, but your army was almost three times bigger than it was in 1700 (which is what I used for the date even though now you said 1710 in the date thread). And it consisted mostly of infantry instead of cavalry.

Also, we're using Popstat afterall?

The navy's modified figures from 1722, as I said. That was the closest I could find, but considering that Gangut happens pretty soon, the navy has to be somewhat developed.
As to the army, I was counting the whole army, not just the bit fighting in the northern front of the Great Northern War. Peter had to raise quite a few troops to hold off the Ottomans and Cossacks.

And yeah, Populstat or, if that doesnt work, some other source with what seems like a reasonable number.

I wonder if we could have a check to see what countries are being played apart from the obvious ones.

England is.

If you need a Prussia I shall be in, If not Ill take Ottomans...

The navy's modified figures from 1722, as I said. That was the closest I could find, but considering that Gangut happens pretty soon, the navy has to be somewhat developed.
As to the army, I was counting the whole army, not just the bit fighting in the northern front of the Great Northern War. Peter had to raise quite a few troops to hold off the Ottomans and Cossacks.

And yeah, Populstat or, if that doesnt work, some other source with what seems like a reasonable number.

I have no idea how to read the charts on Populstat. What's Austria's population at this time? There seriously needs to be a key on that site, especially to tell the multiplier.

EDIT: Also, I think populstat only says the populations for Austria and not Hungary or Bohemia, etc.

If you need a Prussia I shall be in, If not Ill take Ottomans...

I've claimed Prussia. Think Ottoman Empire is free, you'll have to check back. That said, Wikipedia I find helps on populations pretty well. Just have to know what you're looking for.

Just to let you know, I'm working on a factbook for Prussia, I'll post it when it's done. Just grabbing the information together from a multitude of sources.

we also need a Holland and spain if someone else wants in. Both are big players in this period.

I have no idea how to read the charts on Populstat. What's Austria's population at this time? There seriously needs to be a key on that site, especially to tell the multiplier.

EDIT: Also, I think populstat only says the populations for Austria and not Hungary or Bohemia, etc.

According to Populstat, Austria (alone, not including Hungary or any other state) had a population of 6,175,000 in 1754, so I'd say its at about 4.5-5 million at our current date.
Basically, you just have to estimate your population from whatever figures you find that are closest.
Try googling 'Population of the Austrian EMpire' or something too.

Seems we need a France as nobody's showed up to claim 'em on the forum. Anybody up for it?

we also need an Ottoman player

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Earth_1700/

There are still a few key countries open like France, Spain, and the Ottoman Empire. So if you are interested then go to the site and signup.

I joined in as the Ottoman Empire.

Great so now we need two pivotal players, - France & Spain

They will need to be people that can relate to warfare in the 1700's and have time they can commit to this game.

France please.

Prussia never showed up. We need Prussia and Spain. The RP is already started, so hurry up! :P

Bamp.

So we just need a Spain

A Denmark-Norway and Prussia showed up. Spain is the only Great Power remaining. Although, there are still plenty of smaller powers. :P

More the merrier!

Indeed, what is 18th century Europe without a billion or so micro-wars that nobody's ever heard of?

Like a civil war in Monaco or Andorra? :p

bump

BUMP for more players. Spain is still open, as is Bavaria, and so is Poland-Lithuania people. Come on!

I need allies. Badly. :(

I need allies. Badly. :(

What nation are you again Zaheran?

What nation are you again Zaheran?

Sweden. My only ally is the turks, and they don´t seem to be so interested in attacking Russia. With Denmark-Norway entering, it seems like I will have to fight a two-front war on my own. Russia will kick my ass. :(

Sweden. My only ally is the turks, and they don´t seem to be so interested in attacking Russia. With Denmark-Norway entering, it seems like I will have to fight a two-front war on my own. Russia will kick my ass. :(

Since Prussia has failed to show promise in making a treaty with France...perhaps King Louis will turn to Sweden to put pressure not only on Prussia but also on other members of the Continent...

Since Prussia has failed to show promise in making a treaty with France...perhaps King Louis will turn to Sweden to put pressure not only on Prussia but also on other members of the Continent...

Or maybe I can reach a separate peace with Russia and lay waste to Denmark instead. Maybe Norway too. I have never liked norwegians. :p

Savoy (Italy), Spain, and Poland-Lithuania are still needed.

Since Prussia has failed to show promise in making a treaty with France...perhaps King Louis will turn to Sweden to put pressure not only on Prussia but also on other members of the Continent...

Enjoy me not paying back all those loans Peter took out from the French and a bunch of French banks >_>

Or maybe I can reach a separate peace with Russia and lay waste to Denmark instead. Maybe Norway too. I have never liked norwegians. :p

Maaaaaaaaaaybe not, Russia's keen on establishing dominance of the Baltic and removing Sweden as any sort of threat.
Unless you'll agree to being castrated :D

Well, Dont worry, I just need to consolidate some ruling before the Ottomans launch a massive crusade of death...

Jeeez I thought the real rulers were meglomanics, you lot are scary.;)

Maaaaaaaaaaybe not, Russia's keen on establishing dominance of the Baltic and removing Sweden as any sort of threat.
Unless you'll agree to being castrated :D

So that was your plan. Castratring a whole country. Shame on you. :p

So that was your plan. Castratring a whole country. Shame on you. :p

Yeah, I think I already did. I cut off your Karelia, gave you a Livonectomy and removed your Latvia.

Yeah, I think I already did. I cut off your Karelia, gave you a Livonectomy and removed your Latvia.

Is Livonectomy dangerous? It sounds dangerous. :(

Moar Players!

Stilll looking for Spanish player

and to play Schleswig-Holstein if you have a urge.

Freakin' bump. I think the opening post needs to be edited since most people don't have the patience to sort through five pages of posts.

Bumpity bump bump bump. Bump.

Lol bump.

we need players for

Holstein, Republic of Venice, Spain and a host of other Nations.
The whole period started in 1710.

Still need a Spain, and it is beginning to look like we need a replacement for our France, so if you are interested go ahead and signup.

The following places are available for places in our Age of Reason RP, set in approximately 1710.

Main Players required for:
Poland-Lithuania
Muscovy
Spain
France
Savoy

These nations would suit players with limited time available
Italian States
American Colonies
Japan
Qing
Saxony

Countries Taken so Far

Ottoman Empire
Austria
England
Holland
Sweden
Denmark
Prussia

This has been a fun RP to be involved in and is progressing well after a slow start. We have lost 2 players, but there are still nations available.

Go to
http://z15.invisionfree.com/Earth_1700/

Then go to the claims thread and stake your claim, we will help you with your factbook should you require it.

this is great fun plz join as we need more players

ahhh. i kept meaning to find this one again and join up.

i must confess to being absolutely useless when it comes to remembering historical facts and things about what most of the nations were actually like at the time. I'm not much better at researching things.


on the other hand, and RP that's actually going somewhere sounds nice :)

*ponders* after playing a game of EU3 where in i took Muscovy from the piece of junk it begins as to the most technologically advanced nation in the world [only Portugal kept up], and second in size only to china i Think... as well as topping the list in many and various other ways... i think i'd like to see if i can do that again in this environment :D

other than that, I'd be perfectly happy to play as just about anyone you need

RP, now, That I'm not bad at. i could show you some examples if you want. not normally big on rules systems for this kind of thing... tend to have all sorts of flaws. umpires are better if you can get 'em. but i can live with rules if they don't suck :)



anywho, this is me saying something to the effect of "sign me up"

and now i get to hunt through the thread for a link. yay. heh.

ahh, i do need to know if that's ok [and if not, what IS] before i can really join, you know.