NationStates Jolt Archive

The NS Draftroom (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom) is a forum dedicated to the research and development of armament on NationStates. You can do several things on the NS Draftroom:


Post desigs and have them looked at and criticized (constructively)
Suggest new concepts and have them reviewed
Discuss historical precedents
Discuss real life and nation states news items related to the arms industry
Other nifty things


Some of our current members include The Macabees, Vault 10, Rosdivan, Questers and Isselmere.

Interested?

http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?act=idx

Bump!

(Almost) Everyone already knows about it.

Well, when the original forums had 300 members and this one only has 150 it means some people are missing. :p

lol wut

lol wut

pwnt lol

pwnt lol

oh noez

pwnt lol

fascist lies

If you want to be one of the cool kids, join now!

I already am a cool kid.

(I'm surprised no moderators have come in and deleted the thread yet!)
Hello cool kids. Goodbye coolkids

Raises AF-07I and fires 1000000000000000000 NOOKS at you

Hi, I'm Saevitian Archipelago and I've gone insane.

Once I was just like you folks. Comfortable life, just occupying my little nook in Int. Inc., declaring war, committing genocide yadda yadda, like an innocent little n00b on his first day. No worries, perfectly normal and average et cetera.

Then the Draftroom came.

At first I joined up to get tech criticism. I was making planes half the size of an F-22 that could go twice as fast, with an equal weapons loadout, -- you know, the standard newbie designs. And at first that's all the Draftroom was, a bunch of folks who sat around and chatted about military stuff, drew pictures of boats and wrote up lists of specs.

But I was hooked from day one. I kept designing more and more stuff; I wanted to be known as a Great Designer. My posts got more and more intricate and my roleplays got longer and more involved. And gradually the Draftroom staff got more and more tightly knit. From just a bunch of warring players, they became an exclusive club, mercilessly mocking anyone who chose not to join. And I was part of that club.

At first I was proud and pleased. But then I realised that the Draftroom was sucking out my soul and destroying my identity. I was becoming "one of those draftroom folks". The Draftroom took everything I'd got. My designs, my prose, my sanity, eventually my nation. Aye, my life was set back a year and a half because of that place.

So, folks, I'm still around to tell you this. Just Say No™ to the Draftroom. It'll take your body and soul and it won't want to give them back. They tell you they're the "cool kids", well, that's only 'cause they've been brainwashed, the Draftroom has sucked out their minds and replaced them with overcooked lasagne. Every year more and more new players fall prey to the Draftroom. So remember folks, Just Say No™.

Thank you, thank you, you've been a lovely audience, we'd like to take you home with us, we'd love to take you home.

the poster formerly known as Czardas;

...

I think he takes our jokes a little too seriously. :p

:( Czardas whut happened to you buddy...
#d misses you = \

Seize the unbeliever!

The Draftroom is a fantastic place for all players, new and experienced alike, to hang out. Our IRC channel is always full, and our bags of insults... well, they're full too. But hey, join already.

You guys know what the IRC for the Draftroom.

"What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger."

Well, we aren't exactly going to kill your designs, at least all, but few things can kill our survivors.

Hi, I'm Saevitian Archipelago and I've gone insane.

You're Czardas and we want you back! *ensnares*

I think he takes our jokes a little too seriously. :p
Au contraire, mon enfant. Je comprends bien qu'ils sont les blagues. Mais ils sont blagues merdes.
:( Czardas whut happened to you buddy...
#d misses you = \
I don't miss #d all that much. I may pop in if I have the time and inclination. (As it is, I'm only even posting here because I found my old nation's complete history while cleaning out my hard drive and took a moment to wonder what was going on in my absence.)

hay guise Let's stop the spam because we don't want this thread to get closed down.

Au contraire, mon enfant. Je comprends bien qu'ils sont les blagues. Mais ils sont blagues merdes.


Je ne comprends pas votre français. Ainsi, j'utilise Google Translate

You guys know what the IRC for the Draftroom.

#draftroom

server is irc.esper.net

Right... Who thinks I should call in the mods?

Right... Who thinks I should call in the mods?

Why?

- This is not an II thread.
- It has no bearing on nationstates itself, save for being frequented by NS deisgners.
- It is OOC

If this was in the correct place, then yes. Otherwise...

Not to spoil your fun, but wouldn't this be better elsewhere?

- This is not an II thread.
Um, yes it is. Just like all the other discussions we have on II about rp and even about OOC things like how to plan an RP are.

- It has no bearing on nationstates itself, save for being frequented by NS deisgners.

Um... nothing that happens in international incidents has a "bearing" on nationstates.

- It is OOC.

Yeah, so are all the other OOC threads on II.

Yes, there is a pointless and stupid amount of spam on this thread that should be cleaned up. No, the thread should not be deleted, just like the other advertisemetn threads for draftroom and lineartinc weren't.

- This is not an II thread.
- It has no bearing on nationstates itself, save for being frequented by NS deisgners.
- It is OOC


It's relevant to International Incidents, given that everything we discuss on the forums is related to the game (except in 'general', of course). The 'designs' discussed on the forums are then transferred to NS by their designers. It's just redirecting all the OOC over there. The NS Draftroom has been advertised on the II forums for the past two years (I think it's been that long).

I think that any off site forum related to II is better OOC than IC, given that if it was IC it would be taking away some of the role playing from these forums.

If this was in the correct place, then yes. Otherwise...

Not to spoil your fun, but wouldn't this be better elsewhere?

I don't know, but the first post and the thread had to go through a moderation queue in the first place, and so had to be seen by a moderator (I guess I don't have enough posts to go through the queues).

Bump.

Sorry everyone - I obviously still have much to learn ... oh well

It's ok. ;)

Bump!

Bump!
Onward victorious warriors!

We need to superate the old draftroom in members. :p About another 140 to go!

Well I joined, posted This (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1344) admittedly poor first-time design, and only received feedback from one member, while other threads were getting inexhaustible attention. Thus, I think I will simply post designs on II from now on...

You would get more responses if you answer HT's questions. Doing so not only provides us a chance to know more about the design, it also keeps your thread bumped. I can say for myself that this is the first time I have seen that. The onus is not soley on us for not responding. If you post a design And never answer the questions, we assume you ditched the draftrooom and dont take the time to comment.

And, some designs may receive more interest than others - and vice versa. The lack of responses to your first design shouldn't push you away. I tried to reply with what I can respond to, but I really have nothing to add to that thread - it's just a matter of not knowing anything that needs responding to. Nobody has nothing against you.

Hi, I'm Saevitian Archipelago and I've gone insane.

Once I was just like you folks. Comfortable life, just occupying my little nook in Int. Inc., declaring war, committing genocide yadda yadda, like an innocent little n00b on his first day. No worries, perfectly normal and average et cetera.

Then the Draftroom came.

At first I joined up to get tech criticism. I was making planes half the size of an F-22 that could go twice as fast, with an equal weapons loadout, -- you know, the standard newbie designs. And at first that's all the Draftroom was, a bunch of folks who sat around and chatted about military stuff, drew pictures of boats and wrote up lists of specs.

But I was hooked from day one. I kept designing more and more stuff; I wanted to be known as a Great Designer. My posts got more and more intricate and my roleplays got longer and more involved. And gradually the Draftroom staff got more and more tightly knit. From just a bunch of warring players, they became an exclusive club, mercilessly mocking anyone who chose not to join. And I was part of that club.

At first I was proud and pleased. But then I realised that the Draftroom was sucking out my soul and destroying my identity. I was becoming "one of those draftroom folks". The Draftroom took everything I'd got. My designs, my prose, my sanity, eventually my nation. Aye, my life was set back a year and a half because of that place.

So, folks, I'm still around to tell you this. Just Say No™ to the Draftroom. It'll take your body and soul and it won't want to give them back. They tell you they're the "cool kids", well, that's only 'cause they've been brainwashed, the Draftroom has sucked out their minds and replaced them with overcooked lasagne. Every year more and more new players fall prey to the Draftroom. So remember folks, Just Say No™.

Thank you, thank you, you've been a lovely audience, we'd like to take you home with us, we'd love to take you home.

The Draftroom could use more guides for ship, tank, and plane design. Right now, there are basic guides for fighters and for statting ships, but they don't talk much about armouring ships, what kinds of armour there are for tanks, designing bombers, interceptors, etc., etc.

Well, what I do with the Draftroom... I come up with an idea of what I want my design to do. In general terms, that means something that can resist enemy fire and still be combat capable, and that takes precedence over other concerns such as its own firepower, speed, etc. I come out with a basic idea and then argue over the details for a few days.

An ignore function would be useful, of course. Might reduce some of the flaming that goes on there. Goodness knows if it weren't for the ignore function on Jolt, NSG would be an even hotter place than Esh Gehennom, the fire of Hell.

Actually, relevant to the topic of reference thread, I was hoping to start some sort of forum on the site that will allow users to post well-sourced and accurate reference threads for designers. Here (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1372) is the discussion thread - unfortunately, not a lot of responses.

A bump, before I go home.

Bump!

You would get more responses if you answer HT's questions. Doing so not only provides us a chance to know more about the design, it also keeps your thread bumped. I can say for myself that this is the first time I have seen that. The onus is not soley on us for not responding. If you post a design And never answer the questions, we assume you ditched the draftrooom and dont take the time to comment.

His question was answered as soon as the last message was posted by myself in this thread. Thanks to the NSDraftroom staff for their help!

The Draftroom could use more guides for ship, tank, and plane design. Right now, there are basic guides for fighters and for statting ships, but they don't talk much about armouring ships, what kinds of armour there are for tanks, designing bombers, interceptors, etc., etc.

Well, what I do with the Draftroom... I come up with an idea of what I want my design to do. In general terms, that means something that can resist enemy fire and still be combat capable, and that takes precedence over other concerns such as its own firepower, speed, etc. I come out with a basic idea and then argue over the details for a few days.

An ignore function would be useful, of course. Might reduce some of the flaming that goes on there. Goodness knows if it weren't for the ignore function on Jolt, NSG would be an even hotter place than Esh Gehennom, the fire of Hell.

Well, think about it. If all the "elite" designers posted all their knowledge, it'd put us (if you like to include me in there...) out of business. I was going to write a battleship guide, then... well, some things got in the way. I am still thinking of writing a "ship design guide", though. If not just a basic one.

Hey, I'm in NSD, so it's gotta be amazing...

I'm not so sure about that, Matt. People still get many things wrong with Space Union's [Whatever happened to him?] guide anyway, and what Mac is suggesting is similar to that, so I doubt you guys would be out of business. :p

Bump

I might not write those informatives, since I have planned a website - I'm not sure.

I might not write those informatives, since I have planned a website - I'm not sure.

Do not listen to this man for he is trying to steal your soul!

*Scary ghost noises*Ohhhhooohhhooohhhhhh*Scary ghost noises*


On a serious note. The draftroom is an excellent rescource for all you guys who like to design and know how realistic, or even remotely possible, it is.

Terrorism. D:

So you've got the site mostly settled?

Also bump.

Mws Lives Again! It Liiiiivvves

Ooo.... can't wait to see the new site!

Bump

I'm probably going to get a free computer soon, so I can finally start writing up some new designs. :)

Yay!

Back Up To The Top! BUTTT! Oh crap, thats supposed to be bump...

Up!

I'd go to the draft room but none of my designs are original. I just copy existing MT designs and, like, add-on to them.

Bah, anyway. Maybe I will...I just need to be bugged about it...

You could post your mods ... nothing wrong with that.

Aye, a lot of designs heavily resemble RL weapon systems anyway

You could post your mods ... nothing wrong with that.

Oh hell, why not...I'll do it later on!

Yay! Good news, I picked up my new CPU today. It's old - Pentium II or III - and overwhelmed by a lot of programs which start during start-up, but I'll fix that a bit. Windows XP is a little bit too much for the system, but what can I do? Free is free. The alternative computer was faster, but it only had a 6 gig harddrive. My PDFs alone require between 1 and 2 gigs, so that was out of the question. Tomorrow, I have to pick up the monitor, the keyboard and the mouse and then I can hook it up. I won't have internet access, but at least I can start on some designs I have planned and on those Informatives.

Cheers!

Good luck!

I like the draftroom now. :D They like meh designs!

up!

Bump!

Bump! And now to see if Jolt accepts the sup command...1 ... let's see...

... EDIT: Nope!

Bump for today.

Well, think about it. If all the "elite" designers posted all their knowledge, it'd put us (if you like to include me in there...) out of business. I was going to write a battleship guide, then... well, some things got in the way. I am still thinking of writing a "ship design guide", though. If not just a basic one.

What business? You write up stats to use in an internet role playing game. There is no possible way to make any kind of tangible profit from it.

What business? You write up stats to use in an internet role playing game. There is no possible way to make any kind of tangible profit from it.

I think he means in-game profit through storefronts.

More bumpage.

Up!

New Informative on ETC tech is up.

Bump this baby

Another new one.

Bump!

Bumpz0rs

Cough!

Bumperskates

I think people should join. -_-

Well, I would but I have this problem...

And that is I have no idea how to even get started with designing things, I don't even understand. I don't know how to build RL jets, much more make jets on NS.

Also, when one is still trying to establish himself on the MT scene and is flapping his metaphoric arms in futile gestures of frustration in trying to do so, it kinda doesn't help.

The difference between the two is that on NS you don't have to physically build it, so it doesn't have to be entirely mathmatically accurate.

Math is not the main problem, although math makes me cry myself to sleep at night sometimes....

*cough* Anyways, it's mostly from the fact that I don't know where to begin. I've read some of the designs on the Draftroom board.

I am going to be blunt.

I.

Hate.

Numbers.

I can't visualize or be in the ballpark of a good thickness for armor for a missile frigate, or for how long and wide it is, etc.

I also have no idea about fuel cells and all the other things you talk about.

In fact, going to the draft board really kinda makes me despair of getting into MT at times, and being nothing more than a punching bags for those who can do that stuff.

Well think of the draftroom this way then.
You have all kinds of people who know all kinds of stuff, so use them to get the information you may need. I may not be able to do my own ship armour either, but there are people on the draftroom who do, so I get them to help. Same with everything you can think of, from engines and drivetrains to AFVs, to computers, to coffee machines.

I see. I also have the problem of not knowing whats the best place to start. I don't know whats the best way to start when designing things.

I see. I also have the problem of not knowing whats the best place to start. I don't know whats the best way to start when designing things.

Copy something from RL. It's where everyone seems to have started.

I see. I also have the problem of not knowing whats the best place to start. I don't know whats the best way to start when designing things.

I know what you mean as I was as lost as you when I first created my account in NSDraftroom to put my first "stealth tank" idea for avail. And like Sumer said:

Taking a RL design as basis is always a good idea. And although I started it with tanks, I suggest you to start with ideas for your own Army's pistols first, because those are relatively "easy" to come with, and there are easy to find sources of Ammunition listings for pistols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_handgun_cartridges) around as well.

First you must see from which RL nation you'll base your designs on. Or you can get inspiration from several different designs, like I did when I took ideas from the South Korean K1 88 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K1_Type_88) and Swedish S-Tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Tank) as a basis for a low-profile, fast striking tank. And one more thing, if possible avoid Wikipedia and look for info on military tech in sites like fas.org (http://fas.org/) instead, as some of Wiki's military hardware articles have wrong specs.

Other thing to consider is your nation geography. If it has several forests and terrain elevations you won't need weapons with a larger maximum range of fire than 300 meters, for example, which is the standard range of engagement for most modern infantry warfare, while having too many main battle tanks tanks might be less interesting than having some main battle tanks even more light vehicles with larger tank guns (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1639) used in fire and maneuver warfare. Now in a plain land dominated by grasslands and savannas main battle tanks will be more useful

Also the size of your and how much land exists far from the sea are things to consider when defining a Navy. And if your nation has a lot of navigable rivers, specially if those are covered by forests, some extra smaller fleets of destroyers, corvettes and littoral combat ships among other small enough ships to navigate through them aren't a bad idea either, and even more interesting to have if smuggling operations are known to occur in such rivers. But remember that a Navy is essential for power projection, specially in intercontinental wars. Now if your nation is an island nation or an archipelago then you are definitively going to want a somewhat larger Navy than usual for a nation of equivalent size to yours. Designing ships is also a matter of taking pre-existing RL ships and tinkering on their concept. For example the only ship I designed until now is an aircraft carrier and cruiser(defined as "Cruiser-Carrier") inspired by the Russian Kiev Class. The main difference being it ditched the naval guns and torpedo tubes to become a missile focused ship instead:

Russian Kiev Class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_class)
Third Spanish States Oso Class (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1797&view=findpost&p=2777929)

When I first posted in the Draftroom my only idea was: "I want to make a low height tank with stealth technology and a 120mm tank gun", soon after several posts explaining the shortcomings, sacrifices that would have to be done for it to be usable for its specific purpose and such I ended with the Sino Stealth Tank design (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1650) based on those tanks I mentioned and on some concepts of its own(like the MTI Light Caliber 44 120mm ETC Tank Gun (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1616&view=findpost&p=2723365), which was a "copy" over the Rheinmetall L44 120mm tank gun)

And unfortunately you are going to need two things: Math and to read some content about it. Not necessarily a 800-pages long book on "Military Technology and Tactics of the 21st century", but certain articles in the Internet might help you. This is a good place to start (http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?act=SF&s=&f=25).

Well... Step by step.

1. Goal. Start with deciding what you want. Improve on some aspect, solve some problem? Does your specific plan require anything? Got a good idea? Any other reason?

2. Idea. Every (good) design has an idea behind it. What's the idea for the design? Say, "A tank with a small caliber rapid-fire gun should perform well, if I do this..." Or it can be simpler, just say "I need to fire this missile, a vessel can be fitted for it." Or "I can protect infantry better if I use heavy ERA and use up some more of the weight limit." Or "What if I breed these two vehicles together".

Really, here you can already ask on the Draftroom, as you know what you want and have an idea how to do it (really you can without an idea, but that's less effective). There people can help.

3. Prototype. Or a couple prototypes. Select what you base the design on. No design comes out of air, all are, to some extent, an improvement of something existing. Even RL designs. Even the lightbulb had prototypes (open filament and kerosene lamp).

4. Research. Now, you'll have to read on your prototypes and learn how they do what they do. Try to fit in the idea. Or find what can be improved there if these are old vehicles. Or how compatible are the concepts.
In this step, Draftroom can help a lot, if you ask in Commissions or Concepts.

5. Implementation. Basically, you use the Idea, together with Research, to modify the Prototype to fit the Goal.
You can rescale the prototype if needed, add or change something (armor, weapons), write down what you have to add. For some people, it's the longest part, for me personally the shortest: once I've decided what I need, came up with ideas, selected the prototype, done the research, it's almost a matter of typing to actually apply it. Anyway, you just decide on what you do to the prototype.

6. Analysis. Next you need to analyze how the Implementation will perform. What did your modifications improve, what did they sacrifice? This is where you figure out the specifications.
This is the finishing touch, but yet important as it will decide the performance in the game. And this is the most difficult step, easy to make mistakes.

Most times, people post on Draftroom a complete design, which almost always has some mistakes with the analysis. That's OK, we correct it; if these corrections defeat the Goal, we suggest a different Implementation.

7. Narration. Finally, when all is said and done, you perhaps want to tell it to the people in a nice way. Write an intro, decently formulate the stat block, maybe make a picture if you're good with that. Explain some of the steps, just whatever - normal writing work. Not that it's a real design step, but, after all, you want others to understand your goals, ideas, implementation.

I'm generally not good with this part, unfortunately - I spend too much time on each design, so when it comes to writing down, I just try to get done with it already; my design writeups tend to be hard to understand for people not deep into the topic, and I'm not an artist. Most others do better, though every designer has own rules here. The Macabees, for instance, retells most of the research he has done, so people patient enough to read through can understand what he's doing. Hogsweat/Questers makes great lineart pictures. That's the finishing touch, you decide on it.

I'll try to explain it better with the example of my last design. Not the best, as it's complex, but it's a good illustration of stepsr. Open it in another tab/window, and just skip the technicalities, look at the structure.
http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1908

First, I got a contract to produce a big, powerful pistol for PMT cyborgs. We've talked a lot on the goal, decided it must penetrate even very good armor, be semi-automatic, but recoil doesn't matter much. History section tells a bit on that.

Second, it was hard to decide how to do it, but in the end I decided to use caseless ammo so they aren't too heavy and long recoil so it doesn't fire into the blue sky. And make it boltless so it doesn't clog with dirt after a few shots. OK, you might not understand it, let's just say I got the ideas how to make it work.

Third, here it was hard to choose a prototype, but I decided that Desert Eagle, my own older R1 rifle, and the US DoD XM312 project are what I need. These were quite distant for my design, but most times the prototype is much closer. If you design a destroyer, usually you take Arleigh Burke as the base.
You can find mentions of prototypes in the design writeup.

Fourth, I had to do a lot of research. Fortunately, I've done it into caseless ammo before, so I could cut on some. Still, I had to read on XM312, try out heavy revolvers, ask about problems, read on different systems, finally, when I had questions books and sites couldn't answer, I asked a person I know who is a professional expert on firearms. That left me with lots of information on the topic. This is the invisible, but the longest part.

Now the implementation. OK, the whole Operation and Construction are the implementation... I don't expect anyone to understand it entirely, but at least get an idea of how it works. So "I make it this, and that, and that way", just the technical stuff. This is too different for every design. If making a ship (IMHO they're the easiest start), this part usually is all in the picture, or you phrase in words what is where.

Sixth, analysis. That's easy to find, the whole Performance and Specification sections. I used basic physics and a computer program to analyze what the performance will be in every aspect. For most people, it's guesswork, but there still are rules of thumb. And math.

Seven, finishing up. As I've said, I'm not great with it, but you can see - it comes from the history and introduction, to performance and impact on popular 'culture'. And that's it, now you declare it in "alpha-testing", press "post", and wait for people to come fixing it.

luls back up.

Bump

Back up there.