NationStates Jolt Archive

IC Thread linked here. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=541286)

An OOC thread seems necessary given the unusual nature of my alternate history introduction RP.

Disclaimer bit

First up, Tausendjahriges-Reich is, of course, another manifestation of the Third Reich, briefly known as the Thousand Year Empire.

I've already posted in Moderation to deal with my own concerns about creating first of all a nation with Nazi associations and second an alternate history bent. Since I'm far from sympathetic to Nazism or even Fascism myself and not attempting to use this as a tool of propaganda or any such thing, and since the account's name is clearly a direct reference to the nation I'm playing, it seems that there's no problem, so long as everyone plays nice. If you have any concerns, feel free to search for my Moderation thread (I've only started a few, so if you search for Tausendjahriges-Reich it should pop right up) and bring them up there, and we'll talk. I'm not looking to cause problems.

What I'm doing

First off it's another what if, which I'm sure you've seen before, but I want to do it as well as possible while having fun. In this, a couple of key decisions going another way in Germany totally change the course of the Second World War.

At the moment the thread is mostly me telling the story of these changes, and using historic nations as NPC puppets to help me do that. I want to get to about 1945 or '46 and more or less conclude the war as it involves 'real life' nations, and then to make the new Tausendjahriges-Reich that emerges from that a more normal Nationstates nation.

Getting involved in the whole sordid affair

So, at the moment, there's a few ways to get involved, but with some limits, for now.

You are welcome to take part on a character level as an Axis or Allied soldier or citizen and, based on the story I tell, write an account of their war, so to speak, as I'm doing with Jens and Willie. What it's like to live the war, and what they think of the Reich.

You are also welcome to involve your NS nation (we can't really have people playing RL nations, because it'll run us into problems with regards to the rules of the game!), but I don't want fictional nations to derail my alternate history, you know? So for now their involvement would have to be passive, or minor and inconsequential to the strategic overview.

In other words, you can write about your nation sitting out the war at this stage, and watching from the sidelines. Tell us what your nation was like in the '40s, and what it thought of the conflict and the Reich. Or, like Walmington on Sea has already done, you can sort of add your forces to those of real campaigns, so long as they have no impact on the outcome. Walmington claims that it sent small forces to back up the BEF in France, and that they were routed along with the French and British and fled the beaches at Dunkirk. So long as it doesn't chage the result I write about, it's fine.

Soon, once I've finished telling the story, you'll be free to fling your nation into the action. Perhaps after sitting out for a few years and seeing the Reich stretch its tentacles across half the world, your nation finally decides enough is enough, and attacks, or even decides that the Germans are superior and it'd be best to get on side with them and join in the conquering.

I'll let you all know when we're up to that point!

I would like too counter that Stalin knew war with Germany was inevitable(granted, he thought the Russo-German Pact would give him up until 1944) and after the mess-up called the Winter WAr, I dont think there is a chance he will purge his military.

There is evidence(or so I heard from a proclaimed military historian on the net) that Stalin was planning on backstabbing Hitler as early as 1942. And think about this: A Red Army surprise attack(or not-so-surprise attack) would mean no stirring up of national patriotic feelings inside the USSR... instead the patriotic feelings of Germans are stirred up!

Finally, as too the T-34 gear problems. This is a bit of a who-knows. The Soviets might notice it in exercises and correct it, or they might not. From what I understand though, the T-34 wasnt as complex as the Panther and was easier too repair and replace parts in the field(although not nessecarily in the heat of battle). Finally, correcting these problems has too be pretty simple, as the Soviets had them ironed out by late '41(I think, I am basing most of this from memory).

:( I'm not so sure then, this is just basically an alternative history thread then, despite what nations are named what. I realize this may have already been cleared with a few mods, but I am still wary over the very clear rules of alternative history threads in II.

At the moment I think all I could get away with would be to RP as Scotland, since real Pictavia is a large part of modern-day Scotland. This would include the Royal Marine Commandos who trained and operated from here. Again though, I'm afraid that Rp'ing as such would simply be an alternative history...
Any ideas?

EDIT: Sorry, scratch that last. I re-read your post and feel I misenterpreted it. I will continue to RP as Pictavia in the war (The nation is 'Pictavia' or 'New Pictavia', there is no 'Nova', and the adjective or plural is 'Pictish', not 'Pictavian'- sorry, its quite odd that way), but with no significant action which would derail history. I strongly urge you to his 'History' in my signature and then 'Modernity' to get a brief idea of the events Pictavia participated in in WWII, its very brief, however.

Ah ha, I just realised that I hadn't set my options to include the viewing of other people's signatures.

Clarification on the thread's timeline

Because it may have confused some readers.

The first post... imagine it like a movie, perhaps. In the first scene we see a battle-scarred and war-weary Jens Möller aged between twenty-four and twenty-six years, mustering the last of his spirit to join the final stage of an Ardennes offensive Unternehmen Die Wacht am Rhein -the Battle of the Bulge- that is on the verge of saving the war for a desperately tired Germany.

The next post, and the rest of the thread so far, goes back to 1940 and a green twenty year old Jens and attempts to explain how, in this history, Germany could -four to six years later- be on the brink of victory in Europe.

So though we've had a snapshot of somewhere in likely '45 or '46, the rest of the thread, at this time, is actually only up to the change from '41 to '42.

Red Tide2

All right, I suppose the T-34 thing is a relatively minor issue. I suppose that at the start of our altered Barbarossa the T-34 is in its primitive form, and Germany has no Panthers, but very quickly the Soviets rectify the T-34's shortcomings, giving it a better and less angular turret, just as the Germans realise that they need something better than Pz.IV, though it'll take them longer to develop Panther than it will for the Soviets to improve T-34, so it's not much different than in reality. Still, the T-34/85 doesn't appear until early 1944, does it? Certainly I wouldn't contend that the T-34 is more complex than the Panzers, and though shoddily finished it has to be more, er, field-worthy.

Over all, then, what do we think? The Soviets are certainly better prepared, more mobile than they were in '41, and close to being a match for the RL German force that rolled over them in '41. But the Germans will be better off as well, having replaced more horses with trucks, PzIII with PzIV, Tiger just about to come into production, MG-34 with MG-42, the Gewehr 41 in regular service (unreliable as it may be), and the Fw-190 fighter mainstream, amongst other things. Plus, in this history, there's no worry about running out of fuel, and the troops will be generally better supplied. Of course I concede that they'll likely still attack wearing summer uniforms, because they still plan to be in Moscow in a single season.

Also, when Barbarossa is undertaken, Japan will be at the height of its campaign, having just taken Burma and the Philippines... history tells us that won't last more than a few days into the assault, of course, but when it begins Japan seems to be on a roll in the east.

Just a bump as things move on!

Hi all, consider me interested in doing my bit for this RP, however, whilst my forces will not be 'hostile' par se in this war. If everyone would be happy for it, I would like to come in as the token 'evil' guy. My history in my factbook (provided in my sig.) states that the token evil force that once controlled all my nation - the Imperial Dynasty - is still a very powerful force in my region. It has connections with the 'barbarian' peoples that surround The Black Reich, and would undoubtedly be involved in collaborating with the Nazis.

As for my people, the Black Reich, they will be assisting the good people, but it will primarily be me RP-ing Rockmann and his Imperial Dynasty forces trying to do their own power grab in the weakened world post WW2.

Cool?

Welcome.

We're not far from the free-for-all, now. I've started 1944 in my alternate history.

Update! Early 1944

The Battle of Stalingrad has just been won by the Axis, German forces in control of the Middle East have pushed up through the Caucasus, and this time the Soviet States there have been liberated and embraced as allies rather than dominated and persecuted as inferior, and the Whites are back on the scene, sending divisions tearing through the USSR. Even Leningrad is likely to fall as Zhukov's offensive is split, strategically and internally. At the same time, the Nazis are losing control, and conspiracies against Hitler are gaining momentum as the military takes greater control over its own operations.

Still, allied bombing is on the increase, and Hitler is still obsessed with revenge rather than establishing a coherent defence. News from Japan is largely negative with American offensives achieving initial successes, and Italy is an increasingly ineffectual ally as the Reich spends more time propping up the ever less popular Fascists against growing resistance, and it is only due to the victory in Africa that Italy isn't already crawling with Allied troops.

The Germans know that an Anglo-American invasion is being prepared, but don't know where it'll come. To their advantage, though, German control of Middle Eastern oil is limiting the pace and scale of Allied preparations, even if the Germans aren't directly benefitting as much as they might thanks to allied bombing of their refinaries.

On the other hand, German wonder weapons are appearing now and in the next few months. Tiger II is in production, Panther II is not far away, two types of helicopter are operational, one of them submarine launched, the Type XXI U-boat is hunting Allied shipping, bombers are dropping guided bombs and anti-ship missiles, the first assault rifles are soon to be delivered, V-bombs are soon to begin launching against London, and Me 262 is to enter production any day now. Equally, the Manhattan Project is well and truly up and running and producing promising results across the Atlantic...

To Java-Minang

First off, thanks for your interest. I'm open to the idea of you getting involved with Indonesia, and your NS name appears to fit with that so the mods shouldn't mind.

My thread is up to mid 1944, now, and in 1942, after the Battle of the Java Sea, in which the Japanese defeated the Western Allies, the Imperial Japanese Army began the occupation of Indonesia, so it's too late for you to beat the Japanese to it, but I'm sure that we can still find a way to work you in.

In reality Indonesia only declared independence after the Japanese surrender, and had then to fight the Dutch for some years. In this reality, the Dutch may not regain their own independence from the German Reich, so won't be worrying about Indonesia at all.

However, I haven't concentrated on Japan at all. For now, I've just considered that Japan's war is going more or less as it did in reality. Probably Japan will still lose. If you want to take over the Indonesian nationalist movement, I think it would be fair enough.

Of course for now the place is still dominated by two Japanese armies and a naval fleet, but you can start resisting and building up your movement if you like. I don't think you should win until after the Japanese surrender, though.

Still, in August or September of 1945 you should be able to declare independence, and nobody will be able to stop you. It's up to you whether you try to go it alone, treat the Reich as an enemy because we were Japan's ally, or try to make us support you instead of Japan since Japan is clearly losing. The Reich is of course dropping most of its racist policies and might not mind dealing with Indonesians, even Muslim Minangkabau.

How about I RP about some Javanese forced-labour escaped from the Japanese tunnel in Bukittinggi? My plan is to make some alternate in the form of Indonesian people know the cruelty of the Japanese in 1944 and the underground movement speeded up and more anti-Japanese activist. And I think Soekarno is OK to be made to fall to communism/fascism/anything else. Just no capitalism...

How about the plan?
OK Ignore my post in the IC thread if you don't agree.

Seems fair enough to me.

I'm already at the stage in which things are completely flipping around in Europe, so I suppose it's okay for other changes to start happening now.

Since Germany has just done away with Hitler and is sidelining the Nazis, we're being forced to reconsider our allies. White Russia has been established as a friendly entity, and after propping up Mussolini we're now likely to give-in to anti-Fascist pressures in Italy. If the Indonesians can convince us of two things: 1) that the Japanese are as bad as the Nazis, and 2) that Indonesia can be a worthwhile ally, there's no reason why the new Reich wouldn't turn on Japan and help you to prevent Indonesia falling to the Americans or the British Commonwealth nations.

OK, then I'll RP-ed about it again...

And it's up to you how the Japanese will react, it your RP anyhow...
I will act again,
Salam,
Indonesia War Minister (1st Count of Venetia, President of Java-Minang)

It'll be interesting to see what Germany does when the US finishes it's nuclear program and begins deploying the results.

Maybe steal the tech and made the nuclear themself first?:D
That is what the Nazi will do, how the new ones?

Maybe steal the tech and made the nuclear themself first?:D
That is what the Nazi will do, how the new ones?

Well, despite impressive advances on land, I don't see this alternate Germany achieving sea superiority, and indeed, they don't have it, as implied by their continued extensive mass production and deployment of submarines. Also, the German nuclear program was more or less torpedoed for good by the heavy water plant destruction, which I believe happens prior to the start of this narrative.

Indeed, we have been unable to win the war at sea, though questions are being asked as German ports and industry recover in light of a halt to major Allied bombing and production of revolutionary Elektroboote Type XXI U-boats climbs, resulting in serious carnage.

I don't know that the heavy water plant incident was so crucial as is often implied by what I regard as largely Allied mass media-driven propaganda, much akin to the famous Dambusters raid, although it certainly didn't help.

In any event, the flight, exile, detention, and murder of experts in a field that Hitler called Jew Physics was at once a loss to the German programme and a gain for the Allies, and the possibility that some remaining German scientists deliberately under-achieved and over-stated difficulties may have a part to play in the historic failure of the Nazi programme.

There are those who claim that the Germans were going a different route and actually, in an around-about way, had virtually achieved their atomic aim, but I think that idea in itself is likely to be born of borderline neo-Nazi propaganda.

In this reality, of course, the premature fall of the Nazis has seen the two programmes united early (Germany operated a civilian and a military nuclear programme that were only brought together to share ideas and experience, under the SS, when it was far too late to achieve anything new), and the fact that Germany now believes that the war could drag on for longer than was initially expected result in a renewed interest in the atomic weapons sector. Germany did (in both 'realities') split the atom way back in 1938, so has the potential to achieve much with concerted effort. In addition, the bombing of Germany that disallowed concentration of atomic industry has now been brought to a crushing halt, and the programme can expand considerable.

In any case, we are still behind the Allies, since the British started trying to catch-up early, and the Americans have great resources that have always been safe from bombing.

Of course, Japan and Germany are two different matters. Germany is full of Europeans, and borders other nations. It still has a powerful bomber force and strategic rockets, and has Britain's range.

Then, don't forget, there are resistance fighters, occupied peoples, and hundreds of thousands of Allied POWs in the Reich...

As it happens, I was just thinking that I ought to have gone about this differently. We shouldn't have invaded Britain by air as a way to change history... I should just have had Goering die of his wounds after the Munich Putsch, when he was seriously hurt, reputedly refused treatment by a doctor who didn't want to help a Nazi, and was helped by, of all people, a Jewish couple. Then a new second to Hitler could have become head of the Luftwaffe, not tried to destroy the British at Dunkirk with the air force when the army could have done a better job, and not spouted nonsense about an air-bridge to Stalingrad, thus allowing for a breakout to be attempted sooner. Ach, ach! How much easier that would have been!