NationStates Jolt Archive

105,200,000 military personal

The People's Army
60 million men (AK-47, RPG-7, Stinger)

The Revolutionary Guard(marines)
20 million men(AK-47, Dragonov, RPG-7, Stinger)

RedOps
100,000 personal

The Red Airforce
5 million men and women
MiG-21(20,000)
MiG-29 (10,000)
MiG-31 (6,000)
H-6 bomber(170)
Blackjack bomber(50)
Hind(100,000)

The People's Armored Core
7 million personal

SOL T-62 ( 200,000)
SOL GNC-5 "Iron Curtain" MBT (50,000)
BMP-2(300,000)
Tunguska AA system(40,000)

The People's Navy
1 million personal

10 Kirov class battleships
20 Typhoon subs
3 Nuclear Aircraft carriars.
100 SOL Missle Frigates

OOC: That's way too big, unless the vast majority of those troops are inactive reserves. I'm 5 times your size and only have a military of 55 million full time soldiers.

OOC: That's way too big, unless the vast majority of those troops are inactive reserves. I'm 5 times your size and only have a military of 55 million full time soldiers.
/Signed.

pfft no MGs or HMGs what kind of army don't have those to back troops with

im going by 10% of my NS population

im going by 10% of my NS population

OOC: That means, however, that you pretty much have no economy. 10% of your population would rip a huge hole in your labor force that wouldn't be fillable through ordinary means.

This effectively means you're at North Korean levels of economic output or worse.

OOC: It's 5% absolute. Meaning it you're being invaded and have no other choice. Even a psychotic militarised nation like North Korea is going to be under 5%, usually around 4%. nAnd over 4/5ths of North Korea's armed forces are reserves. If they tried to change that their economy would colapse even more then it already has.

10% doesn't work.

of course i got more gear, just dont have the time to put every bit up there.

Actually, you could have 10% in wartime but it would have to be special circumstances, and you would have to be propped up by other nations resources and monetary support.

and yes some of that is reserve

Actually, you could have 10% in wartime but it would have to be special circumstances, and you would have to be propped up by other nations resources and monetary support.

Sons of Lenin

Sons of Lenin

It still doesn't work like that. Your nation would be in debt for years to come because they cannot give you free money or it would crash their economies. Also, your recovering economy from the nuclear strike would be lucky to handle 0.5%.

OOC: It's 5% absolute. Meaning it you're being invaded and have no other choice. Even a psychotic militarised nation like North Korea is going to be under 5%, usually around 4%. nAnd over 4/5ths of North Korea's armed forces are reserves. If they tried to change that their economy would colapse even more then it already has.

10% doesn't work.
Actually NK has 25% percent troops. Not that I support 10% unless your country is going to hell in a hand basket. My country works off the 0.5% rule.

Actually NK has 25% percent troops. Not that I support 10% unless your country is going to hell in a hand basket. My country works off the 0.5% rule.

4.7% if you consider the fact that North Korean reserves are little more then a person tested to make sure they can run X far and carry X weight, and then their name is written down so that in time of war they can be called up to fight.

*Sigh* I've said this so many times...ah well.

The percent rule is pure bullshit, no offense to any of its adherents. We can't tell n00bs that, most of the time, because they'll shout THEN 15% MILITARY IS OK LOL and run around with a godmodded military. What n00bs, and many older nations, fail to realize is that the oft-quoted "up to 2% in peace, up to 5% in war" 'rule' (Or any of its variations) is NOT a rule at all. It is a rule of thumb for answering newbies when they ask how big a military they can have. If you have a way to get around the economic problems of a large army, go ahead and use 10% of your population. Alternatively, go ahead and use a 20% army...just keep in mind that this will turn your nation into North Korea.

Sorry for the rant, but my OCD gets activated when I hear people talking about population limits. The point is that n00bs should be GUIDED by population limits but they are not rules, and so you don't have to adhere to them strictly.

*Sigh* I've said this so many times...ah well.

The percent rule is pure bullshit, no offense to any of its adherents. We can't tell n00bs that, most of the time, because they'll shout THEN 15% MILITARY IS OK LOL and run around with a godmodded military. What n00bs, and many older nations, fail to realize is that the oft-quoted "up to 2% in peace, up to 5% in war" 'rule' (Or any of its variations) is NOT a rule at all. It is a rule of thumb for answering newbies when they ask how big a military they can have. If you have a way to get around the economic problems of a large army, go ahead and use 10% of your population. Alternatively, go ahead and use a 20% army...just keep in mind that this will turn your nation into North Korea.

Sorry for the rant, but my OCD gets activated when I hear people talking about population limits. The point is that n00bs should be GUIDED by population limits but they are not rules, and so you don't have to adhere to them strictly.

You contradict yourself.
If you tell new players that there is no set percentage limit that is accecptable, then youopen the door to "Well then 15% is ok lulz", but when you tell them 2% peace, 5% normal, and then as they develop help them understand why so they can better decide their own best limits, then you quickly remove the noobs who want to play with a US like economy but havd half their population in the armed forces.

Not setting limits to work from, which is the percentage rule of roughly 2 and 5, means you encourage stupidity in armed forces numbers.

You contradict yourself.
If you tell new players that there is no set percentage limit that is accecptable, then youopen the door to "Well then 15% is ok lulz", but when you tell them 2% peace, 5% normal, and then as they develop help them understand why so they can better decide their own best limits, then you quickly remove the noobs who want to play with a US like economy but havd half their population in the armed forces.

Not setting limits to work from, which is the percentage rule of roughly 2 and 5, means you encourage stupidity in armed forces numbers.

I think we're speaking the same language here, and I just worded my reply poorly. What I think we're both saying is: "You do NOT have to adhere strictly to any rule of population percentage in the military, so long as you have a legitimate reason for it and/or RP the consequences. However, rules such as '2% in peace, 5% in total war' provide helpful guidelines which are valuable especially to those new to NS RPing."

How's that?

What he is trying to say is that the 2-5% rule is for newbies so that they dont go godmodding around with a huge ass military. However, a player who's been around the loop a few times knows what he can and cannot do with his economy/military, and as such he can ignore that rules as long as he has understandable and non-godmodding ways of working around a 10% military.

Not setting limits to work from, which is the percentage rule of roughly 2 and 5, means you encourage stupidity in armed forces numbers.

I would say 10% is the maximum limit for a wartime economy, since anything more than that will cause the economy to simply stop functioning. Militarization at this level is kind of the equivalent of ripping up the tracks behind you to build the railroad in front of you; it's a disparate way of keeping yourself fighting, hopefully long enough to win or at least stalemate the situation.

2% peacetime, 5% war, 10% Moscow 1941. In other words, the only time when you'd have 10% mobilization is if the enemy is in the country and literally on the verge of taking the capitol or similarly crucial location.

*Sigh* I've said this so many times...ah well.

The percent rule is pure bullshit, no offense to any of its adherents. We can't tell n00bs that, most of the time, because they'll shout THEN 15% MILITARY IS OK LOL and run around with a godmodded military. What n00bs, and many older nations, fail to realize is that the oft-quoted "up to 2% in peace, up to 5% in war" 'rule' (Or any of its variations) is NOT a rule at all. It is a rule of thumb for answering newbies when they ask how big a military they can have. If you have a way to get around the economic problems of a large army, go ahead and use 10% of your population. Alternatively, go ahead and use a 20% army...just keep in mind that this will turn your nation into North Korea.

Sorry for the rant, but my OCD gets activated when I hear people talking about population limits. The point is that n00bs should be GUIDED by population limits but they are not rules, and so you don't have to adhere to them strictly.

Agreed. If you want to RP the NS equivalent of NK go ahead. Just know you population is starving and dieing and everyone hates you. You can of course do what you want but the problem is new players fail to understand the long term or even short term problems of raising the draft. For example if you just hike up the draft to 10% and it has never been that high riots and possibly armed rebellion will follow. However if it has always been like that and people are always starving in the streets then no one will notice or care. If you want to have a 25% military just because you randomly needed troops you can't just pretend nothing happened or it is war time production as normal.

I think we're speaking the same language here, and I just worded my reply poorly. What I think we're both saying is: "You do NOT have to adhere strictly to any rule of population percentage in the military, so long as you have a legitimate reason for it and/or RP the consequences. However, rules such as '2% in peace, 5% in total war' provide helpful guidelines which are valuable especially to those new to NS RPing."

How's that?

Better.
But remember those of us who've been around a whiloe also realise that the more detail you go into, the less clear the military is. My "Armed Forces" actually consists of both my standard military, as well as emergency workers such as the police, firefighters, paramedics, forest rangers, and so on, as well as reserves who perform other civil duties. Thus my "Defence" budget is absolutely huge, but that's because it covers a large number of the civil service duties as well as simply defending the nation. I still have less then 5% of my population in this entire category, but the line between military and civillian is quite blurry none the less.

You do realise that supporting a military of 105,200,000 -- providing them all with food, salary, training, and equipment (a cost of about $200k minimum per year) -- will cost about $21 trillion, or a little over twice your GDP? Even if you cut a buttload of corners and shell out only $100k a year, it still falls a trillion or two bucks short of the total value of all goods and services produced in your nation. Where's all that money coming from? Nameless and invisible allies?

And if you want airplanes, or ships, or tanks -- oh my! Costs become astronomically higher, to say nothing of the people required to take care of those airplanes, ships, and tanks. (I sure hope you included logistical personnel in that 105 million figure. If you didn't, virtually your entire population will be working for the North Calaveras military, and as a result your entire nation will subsist upon K rations, live in field tents, wear war-surplus military uniforms, and drive T-55s to work.)

OOC:
I also agree. Unless you can show that specific sections are Reserves and which ones are Regular, then we'll figure out what's what.

well, most of my military in currently in the reserve, I'm sure some of NC's troops are in the reserve. Russia has like a reserve of 20 million men for a nation of 140 million people.

Yes, but that "reserve" is probably more along the lines of the total number of people with military training rather than a reserve in the sense that the military can call them up immediately if needed.

IIRC, Russia has conscription, so this would make sense.

Thats why 100 million people in my nation are in reserve or very non active. I reduced my active army to 6 million. (Taking a big chunk of the defnse budget.)

well, most of my military in currently in the reserve, I'm sure some of NC's troops are in the reserve. Russia has like a reserve of 20 million men for a nation of 140 million people.

Yes, but that "reserve" is probably more along the lines of the total number of people with military training rather than a reserve in the sense that the military can call them up immediately if needed.

IIRC, Russia has conscription, so this would make sense.

Another thing would be if you gov alllows conscription. My nation is still growing.