NationStates Jolt Archive

The NS Economy
Kroconomics

Purpose

Well, the purpose of this is similar to the rants we see on war, nukes, n00bism, and so many other such topics. But mainly this is so I can get my own thoughts straight, hear the opinions of others, and basically, get my views across without restating the a million times in a million threads. Some of you may yell at me, some may agree... whatever your opinion, remember that this is just my thoughts, and in no way an attack on any specific nation.

Background - Support Basis for Everything Else

NS Earth is massive. Ok, we all know that, but here's another question. How many nations are there? Is it just the ones I RP with? Just the ones I've seen around? Or is it everybody? Well, there is no answer to the question, it's up to every individual player. However it is immpossible to role play in any sort of realistic manner unless all RP'ers agree on who exists and who does not. I personally believe there are 73,672 nations currently in existance on NS. Why? Because that's what it says on the NS Website.

Ok, only a fraction of those RP. We can't possibly count the rest. Well, if you go off of any NS Calculator, if you take NS's rankings and descriptions worth anything, then you are affected by them. The global economy is affected by each and every one of them. So even if you don't RP with them in any sort of manner, it is necessary to recognize that they do exist.

Well, what do they do? Not much. They don't go to war. They don't talk. They dont play sports. Basically, they're Isolationist America in 1920. What they do do however... is trade [assuming they have a free market. If they're commies... well fuck, they don't do anything at all.]

Trade - The Global Economy

Now we come to trade. If all of the countries exist, does that mean I trade with them all? No, of course not. NS Earth is so friggin large, you'd wear out a nuclear reactor powering a ship across the globe. Do my IC actions matter? Why did I just sign that FTA!? WTF Kro!? You suk! Calm down, of course it matters. It matters alot. You trade with the following first and formost.

1. Free Trade Partners / Neighbors. You will trade with these two first and foremost due to the economic benefit it has to your national economy. It is cheaper, and their goods are more available. Depending on how much cheaper their goods are, you might only trade with these people. Depending on your specific policies, you might only trade with these people. You might not have any 'implied trade' whatsoever.

2. Everyone Else. Here is what I call, 'Implied Trade'. If you are a capitalistish nation, with open trade (note I did not say tariff-free), I believe there is implied trade with everyone. Or at least the countries that have something you want. You send out goods, you bring in goods. You send out what you have, you bring in what you need. I don't RP doing that, but it happens... because it has to in order for my 'frightening' economy to work. I believe that trade is taxed, and I believe, depending on your country, it is important. I also believe that it acts and suffers as does RL trade. [During war it may dissapear, depending on whether or not your seas/airspace is protected.]

But wait? Who are you trading with? I'm trading with some 70,000 nations across NS.

Oil

Lets be honest. When we say 'economics' we are basically saying 'oil'. Now we have to first and foremost get something straight. No nation can possibly dominate the entire oil market single handedly. Not even a conglomeration of nations, or alliance of oil powers. There are simply too many countries in NS. We have all accepted that there is no 'Winning NS', you cannot 'Take over the world', so we might as well add this to the list of ideas. 'You can't own all the oil', or even dominate the market. Why? Of the 70,000 countries, I'm betting at least 5,000 make a significant amount of oil... ergo... there is oil out there.

I Sell Oil For $24 dollars a barrel!

STOP! You now think that you are 'one uping the other guy'. You are not. You are screwing yourself. You are selling below market value. (I personally say market value is $50 dollars a barrel on the open market) If you sell at a fixed price below market value, what are you doing?

Step 1. You have 1/10,000 barrels of the world oil. (These are not exact numbers, so bare with me, it's just to prove a point)

Step 2. The world needs 10,000 barrels total... you are selling yours for $24... everyone else is selling for 50. What happens? You will sell your barrel first and cheapest! Congradulations! You're an idiot. Who the hell cares who sells theirs fastest? Everyone needs oil, so you basically are just making less money for no reason. You think the other guys won't be able to sell theirs? No. They will. Just for $50 a barrel. What happens now? Well you gave oil to the 1/1,000 people that needed it. Guess what. 999 people still need oil. So what are they going to do? They are going to go to the global market and pay market value. $50 a barrel. The people selling at 50 are making more profit than you are. Thus their company, on the stock market, is doing better than yours.

Step 3. I lost track of the steps during my last rant, but basically, you can sell your oil at whatever you want. Trying to do your allies a favor? Want to help your own people out? Fine, whatever. But you are NOT helping your economy. You are HURTING it. There is no massive excess of oil that people buy the lowest price. The demand is so high that if you sell low, your competitor will sell high... and will financially 'own you'.

EDIT 1. Purchasing Power - Military and Other

New nations spending hundreds of billions on buying colonies, oil field bids, purchasing massive numbers of tanks and basically acting as if they ran the world. Now it's not entirely your fault, you just see what everyone else is doing, and want to do the same. Well there is a slight difference between you and them. There is a little thing under your country name that says '2007'. Under theirs it says '2004'. They have tens of trillions of dollars to spend. You probably have under ten billion. Your GDP, or your Gross Domestic Product is the total value of all goods, services and products of your nation. It is all of the money. It's the money that the National Bank loaned the farmer. It's the intrest on the loan the farmer paid back to the bank. It's the cost of making a pack of napkins. It's the cost of buying the napkins. It's the money the middle man made off of the napkins. It's the tax breaks, the wages, the profits, the capital. It is everything.

So does that mean I can go spend it all on a super-cool battleship!?! NOOO!!! You can't spend your GDP on anything. You can't spend your GDP, because no one person controls your GDP... unless your a communist... in which case your economy sucks anyways... but still... your GDP cannot be spent. You cannot spend your GDP. You cant even spend a fraction of it. It's not sitting in the vault, waiting for you to pull it out and spend it. You government budget is what you can spend. But even that should by all means, be off limits.

Why? It's my money! Right, but your country operates under the premis that everyone's trash is picked up twice a week. Your country assumes that the roads are in operable condition. Your country assumes that you have a normal country, something like the standard life of the US, England, or Canada. Well guess what? Those countries pay billions upon billions of dollars so that you can live like you do. If you spend all of your government budget on your military, you better RP the filth and squalor your people live in.

Your Military Budget =/= What you can buy. It's been said a million times, but I'll say it again. You can't look at your budget and say, 'Ten million! Then I'll buy ten million dollars of stuff!' You have to pay for much more than the stuff. You have to train your men to use it. You have to pay your men. You have to feed your men. You have to arm your men. You have to pay medical fees for all those guys that got hurt. You have to pay for the retirement funds of your long term officers. You have to pay the families of the men that lost their lives. You have to pay for new clean flags for each battle. You have to buy bayonet polish. You have to pay for the mechanical replacement parts of that thing you bought. You have to buy the fuel for that thing you bought. You have to buy the ammo for your men and that thing you bought. You have to pay for a thing to drive things to that thing you bought. You have to pay for the fuel for the thing that carrys the fuel to that thing that you bought to fuel up that other thing. You have to buy a shitload of shit. So don't spend it all on big toys.

An NS Storefront owner sells to many people every day. He's not going to look up every nation. I suggest using NSEconomy to decide your nation's budget. (http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php) Is it set in stone? By no means. It cannot take into consideration trade pacts, wars, international incidents or anything else for that matter. It's up to you to make adjustments... just make sure you don't get too far off of something standard. If NSEconomy says you have 100billion... chances are you can't RP as having 10trillion.

[I will be editing/adding to this as I feel the need to vent. I actually have more, but I hit some key and it accidentally posted early... hence the short length. So please, patience. Feel free to comment... just try and keep WTF STFU out of your first post.]

Not to mention nations like mine will simply buy up most or all of your oil for said submarket price, thereby defeating the point and filling our strategic reserves with plenty of cheap crude. To make matters worse, our oil demand is relatively low compared to our population and GDP for technological and cultural reasons, so we'd be able to avoid any attempts at embargoing our supply of oil while drawing from our huge reserves.

This world is too big for a single controller of commodities markets. With multi-trillion barrel reserves, a single nation can produce more than the entire IRL planet.

I agree. If I ever see a country selling oil for that money I buy huge amounts that makes the seller feel good even though they lose money in the end.

A suggestion to add, something about reasonable buying power of goods, since not every storfront owener has time to go through the calculator to check each persons budgets...

Since I'm sure this concerns me, allow me to put my two cents in:

1. First off, I sell my oil at $40 per barrel. This is approximately what the price was in the US in the late '80s and early 90s. Plus, it's only $10 behind your set "market value." $10 is not going to break my economy or anyone else's for that matter.

2. I only export to allies. May not sound good, but when you consider I have like 30 of them, my business runs well enough to generate profit without breaking anyone else.

3. Since I don't try to actively outcompete or monopolize oil (my Griffencrest thing was stupidity/lulz/Izistan putting me up to it) I'm not hurting anyone else.

4. I export 3.5 billion barrels of oil yearly. This amounts to enough profit that there's really no reason to raise prices.

5. I inflated my figures like hell in an attempt to bully Griffencrest into accepting my buyout.

Real figures:
Exports/Sold Oil: 3.5 billion barrels
Total Reserves (including untapped fields): 1.5 trillion barrels, expected to last for at least 100yrs.

I am in agreement with most of what you've said. My probable response to someone trying to flood a market with underpriced X good would be to buy it all up and then go all Herbert Dow on them later.

Flooding a market is a dubious tactic even in RL. I would think it would be flat-out impossible on NS, unless you're in a closed economy which doesn't trade with the rest of the world.

-Updated for Budgets/GDP-

@Prestonia. The oil part was actually mainly due to Sharktooth's $15 oil.'

1&2. No, it will not hurt your economy. It will just stop you from making as much as you hypothetically could. You could make $10 more... you dont. You aren't hurt, you just make less than possible. You sell to your allies. As I said, that is fine... it has it's benefits.

3/4. Unlike what I posted in other threads, it is immpossible for anyone to actually hurt anyone else through pricing. The only reason I'm currently attacking you is because you said you exported 3.5Trillion barrels yearly. I now assume it was a typo, or mix up of the reserves with the export. But in your offer to Griffencrest, you said you exported 3.5 trillion barrels... which actually would be enough to affect the world oil market.

Umm.. Saudi Arabia exports 3.5 billion barrells of oil per year IRL. Scale that to NS, and I'd say it's the top tier of normal.

That said, I have proven reserves totaling hundreds of times that of IRL Earth. But I don't export it in massive quantities, and my civillian economy runs primarily on nuclear and hydroelectric power. In Sumer, oil is the domain of the armed forces, and I have enough of a strategic reserve that I am willing to sell "small" ammounts of it super cheap when the need arises. I don't suddenly declare I'm selling oil for ZOMGSUPRCHEAP, but when I see some situation come up that I feel will benifiet me, I will offer oil for a price I feel works. I can sell for $35 a barrell because I'm not so much looking for a monetary profit as I am future political backing. Hell, I can, and have done, completely replace some of these 2007 and even 2006 nations' full oil reserves just with overproduction.
But then again, I consider myself an oil rich nation, and I consider oil one of the otherwise untapped resources in my nation.

But that's my oil rant. And some day, just to piss someone off, I will give oil away for free. But we'll see.

That wasn't a typo exactly. I export to like 30 nations, none of which are under 500 million. That equates to a lot of oil. Add to that the fact that I need to supply my own nation and you see why I export as much as I do.

I like this a lot. It makes me feel good for trying to put this sort of stuff in. Question though. What do you say about the possibility of running an entirely nuclear economy (Don't worry about the waste it is "taken care of").

But you see, the thing about oil is almost every nation claims to be oil rich. In other words, it doesn't play as big of a role as it probably should, because mostly every nation claims "I have a billion gazillion barrels of oil!"

So there's really no point in an oil market at all because it seems that in the NS world everyone has more then enough oil to supply their own nation.

Umm.. Saudi Arabia exports 3.5 billion barrells of oil per year IRL. Scale that to NS, and I'd say it's the top tier of normal.

That said, I have proven reserves totaling hundreds of times that of IRL Earth. But I don't export it in massive quantities, and my civillian economy runs primarily on nuclear and hydroelectric power. In Sumer, oil is the domain of the armed forces, and I have enough of a strategic reserve that I am willing to sell "small" ammounts of it super cheap when the need arises. I don't suddenly declare I'm selling oil for ZOMGSUPRCHEAP, but when I see some situation come up that I feel will benifiet me, I will offer oil for a price I feel works. I can sell for $35 a barrell because I'm not so much looking for a monetary profit as I am future political backing. Hell, I can, and have done, completely replace some of these 2007 and even 2006 nations' full oil reserves just with overproduction.
But then again, I consider myself an oil rich nation, and I consider oil one of the otherwise untapped resources in my nation.

But that's my oil rant. And some day, just to piss someone off, I will give oil away for free. But we'll see.


Saudi Arabia exports the most oil in the world. So it is THE top producer.

Ah, I love these artcles. And this one is particularly interesting. Good job.
I think the idea that capitalish nations are inherently trading with all other such nations is a bit overreaching, as the sheer scale of that trade would surely be problematic, and that setting the standard oil price at $50 may not be entirely accurate, depending entirely upon the time.

Saudi Arabia exports the most oil in the world. So it is THE top producer.

And, much like how most nations on NS could crush the US without trying, things need to be scaled up for NS. Hence why the 3.5 billion barrells of oil being entirely realistic when scaled up to fit NS.

@Dostanuot Loj. No one nation can dominate the market, even a 'massive oil producing nation'. There are hundreds of billions of people on NS. There are over 70,000 nations. You sell for cheap... even if you give it away, you will not affect the world market. What will happen? The people you give it to will be happy. The rest of the world will pay market price.

@Siriusa. Ah, good point. You've seen what? 20? 30 nations say they export oil? Well... there are 70,000 overall. Just assume the others don't. And for as much oil as you see made, the demand from economies like AMF and the other multi-multi billion nations is insanity. Think the USx500. Trust me... oil is in demand.

@Fordock. Nuclear Power is very effective, and very efficient. Only major downsides being, #1. Getting rid of waste. #2. Enviromental effects (water heating, etc.) #3. Meltdowns/Terrorism. They make really nice targets if you ever go to war. Besides that, they're great.

And, much like how most nations on NS could crush the US without trying, things need to be scaled up for NS. Hence why the 3.5 billion barrells of oil being entirely realistic when scaled up to fit NS.

3.5 billion barrels per year is roughly equal to the amount of oil produced by Saudi Arabia or Russia in the real world. On an NS scale, I'd say 35 billion per year would be plausible, especially for a major producer.

By and large, it seems like the upscaling for NS nations should likely be 10:1 relative to the real world.

Your coments on oil sounds like Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, lol.

Great thread, dont have to much time now, busy on other NS related topics.

I am not much of an RP er if I can call it that, I have a very unique style, I like to RP with real world nation names and as close as possible to them with some NS mix.

I cant RP war, I wish I could, but still militarily defensive.

My Idea of a Greater Democratic Cuba would be all of the West Indies, and Florida, all of the West Indies, Florida and Central America, ruled by La Habana Cuba, lol.

Will post again a more complete post on this great thread.

look up real world nations budget and compare them to NS, guide yourself by world nations statistics and populations times your NS nations population, compare them to all NS like calculators and see what you get.

Exsample :
Divide your 1,000,000,000 Billion NS population by say Taiwans 20 some million population and times the result by Taiwans statistics.

Compare Real World nations populations and statistics of 10, 20, 30 millions with your small NS populations and statistics and see what you get.

Compare them by divide and multiplication.

I started to study this and changed topics, will get back to this when I have some time.

Use Real World Cia 2007 world factbook and other sources as your guide.

Please no more World Factbooks with population ages of
15 to 45, 46 to 65, 14 to 65.
I divide mine closer to 01 to 05, 06 to 10, 10 to 15, 40 to 45, 60 to 65.
I use real world nation statistics, I find them in real world nations official censuses, can do this for RW & NS economic statistics as well, RW statistics times NS pop by division, percentages % of.

Cia has a source of nation ages, a fellow poster post a link to them to sujest what I have sujested, just like I planned to do,the only problem is I found many math errors in the sub totals, would have to do some adjustments.

Very good Kroando. i think that will help alot of newbies (like me) understand the economic things.

There are 2.2 million served nations. That means... you can have any economy you want, you can run your cars on russian vodka or fruit loops, and this is a giant fantasy.

...you can run your cars on russian vodka or fruit loops

Like the infamous Sodium Chloride Engines! :D Skgorria knows what I'm on about...

Is it theoretically possible for their to be a globalized NS economy, or is globalization impossible to achieve in Nationstates?

Ghatoba, I suspect the answer to that is that it's impossible without doing a lot of god-modding.

Ghatoba, I suspect the answer to that is that it's impossible without doing a lot of god-modding.

If that is so, it would make upward mobility extremely diffucult, especially for a small player like me.

Oil, unlike RL, is not the dominant market. Arms manufacturing is. You'll see that NS Economics differs greatly from RL economics in that the base resources such as food, minerals, oil and the such are capable of being something from nothing. Nations are capable of manufacturing those kinds of resources without the need for any trade at all. It's only done because it sets the stage for either warfare or diplomatic relations against more warfare. There is no shortage, nor will there ever be of any given base resource. However, since this is a fantasy world, it's not a matter of physical proportion but rather intellectually and psychologically. Hence, the most tech savvy will build the most powerful military weapons. The most ruthless will gain leeway, and nations that present an economic obstacle to anyone can be dealt with. That being said, when we speak about economics on II, we talk about war, and only war.

Everything revolves around war in this world; nations go to war over the dumbest of reasons. But it's still a good story, and people like it. As long as there is conflict, the arms manufacturing industry will stay on top, and it will stay that way.

The biggest sector is arms in Nationstates.

Then you have energy both alternative energy and oils. Mostly it is not selling oil that is happening, but fighting over oil fields.

Then you have farming with countries like Kurona, Ok-la-ho-ma, and a few others. A big part of this is overpopulation problems, some nations have 8 billion people.

There is also helping nations with natural disasters, having extra rice, and instant tents, and disaster in a box remedies is also popular.

Then you have ridiculous stuff-- like my skyfarms, the storefront for dictators and tyrants.

what would be a reasonable amount of weaponry to claim to have inherited from my former colonizer?

The biggest sector is arms in Nationstates.

Then you have energy both alternative energy and oils. Mostly it is not selling oil that is happening, but fighting over oil fields.

Then you have farming with countries like Kurona, Ok-la-ho-ma, and a few others. A big part of this is overpopulation problems, some nations have 8 billion people.

There is also helping nations with natural disasters, having extra rice, and instant tents, and disaster in a box remedies is also popular.

Then you have ridiculous stuff-- like my skyfarms, the storefront for dictators and tyrants.

Yeah, it gets ridiculous sometimes with farming nations whose population are obviously too large to be a farming nation.

what would be a reasonable amount of weaponry to claim to have inherited from my former colonizer?

Depends on your colonizer. A more militaristic military will likely yield a higher amount of weaponry to you in their stockpiles and armories in contrast to a more liberal or diplomatic-based nation.

I myself only accept the existence of active nations. That's, what, a couple hundred? The vast majority of the nations on the NS site don't roleplay, so I have no reason to consider their existence.

Aye, I am going to have to agree with Zukariaa there. I only accept the nations that currently RP or have RPed in the past as nations that exist.

If we were to accept every single nation registered on NS, then we would be accepting FT, PT, and FanT nations as well as closed-RP nations like those in NS Earths and the like.

I concur. Why keep track of 70,000 nations when you can just keep track of around 100 in your time frame? Easier and more realistic.

Vojvodina-Nihon on trade. For some reason, everyone seems to assume that trade consists of "My government pays your government $5000 for six units of X.", and nothing more. Government-sponsored trade with seventy thousand nations (the last time I was here it was 120,000, but that's beside the point) is unrealistic. Private trade with seventy thousand nations, however, is entirely plausible. It's quite likely that, while your government only maintains official trade relations with Imurbuddia and Staunchallystan, your citizens and corporations are buying from whoever will sell to them, and selling to whoever will buy from them, including disagreeable places like Crabkeyburg and Eastasia.

Hence, what gets me down is the individuals who respond to an embargo with "We have never traded with you so your embargo affects nothing.", as what these people seem to be saying is "No citizen of your nation has ever interacted with a citizen of our nation, except to deliver a sharp kick to the buttocks." Sure, your government may have completely ignored Superhappyfuntimeland, but somewhere among your 64723 billion citizens there might be one or two who've heard of it and sell their cigarettes for its prime walrus steaks, so when the embargo goes up a few stores will be lacking their prime Mynationian cigarettes, meaning a few dozen citizens will be unhappy about it and stage a demonstration in Pickett Square calling on the government to end this stupid embargo so they can get their fags, and so on and so forth. Of course, nobody ever RPs this fully, that I've seen; and with good reason. It would take valuable time away from RPs that could be spent blowing up the other guy's 20 million tonne nuclear powered flying submergible stealth flamethrower tank. And come on Mac, it's just a game. But it still irritates me, because I'm an evul realism nazi.

Vojvodina-Nihon on the Imperialism Myth. NS Earth is pretty darn big. Some say it's the size of Jupiter; some say it's the size of Earth but with everything reduced in scale so that the people are about six inches tall; whatever. The fact remains that everyone and their grandmother has enough iron, coal, gold, uranium, oil, copper, bauxite, Acigoo, and handwavium to satisfy its own needs and remain entirely self-sufficient if blockaded. Sure, maybe something minor will be missing, but in that case its industries will have adapted to deal with the absence -- developing room temperature superconductors to replace copper wires for instance. Therefore, imperialism for the sake of resources is pointless because there is simply nothing rare to be had. Everything is quite common and what you don't have you can buy, rather than waste billions of dongs on a 40 million man invasion of N00bia. Even land is common, given that certain individuals are continually discovering and mapping new continents whenever the mood strikes them. *cough cough*

Therefore, imperialism is quite pointless. Realistically speaking, nobody should need to invade anyone else for land and resources, unless you use your own land and resources in a terminally wasteful fashion, or RP as the Borg Collective. For the vast majority of us, however -- who have plentiful and sufficiently large homelands, or, if not, similarly endowed allies -- imperialist actions have no excuse but an OOC desire for a good story or the alleviation of boredom, or the avoidance of schoolwork, or whatever. I am continually surprised by those who condone and even preach imperialism, when it is realistically unnecessary in the version of the NS world we have constructed.

More rants coming soon!

Lets be honest. When we say 'economics' we are basically saying 'oil'.

Oil is not actually some special kind of commodity that has its own rules. Yes, it's very important, but the world economy would fall into a deep depression just the same if iron ore supplies were cut off, or coal, and yet few people will fuss about iron ore or coal. Oil is especially important in real life because it is heavily concentrated in a section of the world with a deep hatred of the end users, and little in the way of a free trade tradition. As such, the special importance of oil in real life is entirely a real life political matter that has no relevance to nationstates. There is no reason to suggest that oil would be especially scarce or especially in demand. Your implicit claim here that oil demand is infinite is sheer nonsense:

Step 2. The world needs 10,000 barrels total... you are selling yours for $24... everyone else is selling for 50. What happens? You will sell your barrel first and cheapest! Congradulations! You're an idiot. Who the hell cares who sells theirs fastest? Everyone needs oil, so you basically are just making less money for no reason.
Demand for oil is not infinite, so you will not automatically sell all oil you produce regardless of how much you scale up production. Your entire argument against oil prices being low on nationstates is based on the assertion that the market rate is $50 per barrel. But this assertion is completely groundless. The cost of production of oil in the most efficient fields is very low - Kuwaiti oil, for instance, costs as little as $2/bbl to extract. As such, oil prices are determined primarily by supply/demand equilibrium rather than any fixed cost that means oil will always be expensive. In the past in real life, oil has been very cheap, and there is no reason to suggest that oil supply is not greater and more competitive in nationstates. In fact, due to the large amount of ground area and lack of cartels such as OPEC, as well as the distribution of oil among more pro-trade nations than in real life means it is very likely that oil will be significantly cheaper in nationstates.

I really like to trade with i only rp with nations i come in contact with, either on the forums or like in my region.

The problem is no one is willing to RP as lacking something and there are no reasons to get into a war, which face it or not is the main reason I think most people come here, so they just make up something. The problem being I doubt you could get everyone to agree that you can only have 1 or 2 resources in plenty. So realism is impossible in short because people like war too much because their are no consequences in RL of your actions on the boards.

I truly wish people would be more realistic with their resources. When I was Old Vantania, I RP'ed as a resource rich former colony. However, to counter that, I RP'ed having very little industrial development, and staunch environmentalist policies. This was perfect for the eventual communist takeover, which led to New Vantania rebelling.

Now, with New Vantania, it was practically the opposite. I'm pretty much Japan, very little resources, with factories everywhere. As such, imperialism is vital to keep everyone supplied with raw resources. Particulary, coal and oil, vital to sustaining the economy, are in short supply, even in the colonies. As such, we have to buy it, mostly from allies and the infamous GC. So, even though my colonies have some resources to keep my going, I still need to buy a lot of it from outside sources. Thus, I keep my economy realistic. Though I'm an economic juggernaught, if no one sold me resources, I'd take a serious hit.

Actually there are consequences on the boards. If you loose the war then you may get occuppied or you may be in national debt. Just because NS war doesn't have RL consequences doesn't negate NS consequences.

EDIT @ Vontanas:

Uiri has Nickel, Gold, Silver, Uranium and Oil (Not enough to export) from the desert and natural food from the Rainforest, although there is no logging so timber is in short supply and so are other metals like Copper and Titanium. It is short in agriculture because of the soil and lacking in literacy (reading and writing) and the service industry. Healthcare is mostly privatized only broken bones and vaccines provided by the state. Public transport is OK mostly because it only exists in the Capitol. Every single other industry except for the Military and the Police Force is privatised.

Actually there are consequences on the boards. If you loose the war then you may get occuppied or you may be in national debt. Just because NS war doesn't have RL consequences doesn't negate NS consequences.

That's true. Even if you're a dictatorship, which means public protests over a war are pretty much not going to happen, your army's going to be beaten up and worn down by prolonged conflict and if the conflict is big enough your economy will also suffer. I mean, a unit deployed to a combat zone will likely require several months to fully recover for redeployment, and if it's sent back in right away it will suffer in terms of performance and morale.

If you run your army ragged, it will fall apart...

Thanks for posting this. I think I understand more about NS economy. I do have one question. Were do you find out what you "GDP" is? And how do you decide how big your military is??

Thanks for posting this. I think I understand more about NS economy. I do have one question. Were do you find out what you "GDP" is? And how do you decide how big your military is?

Your GDP is available at one of many NS economy calculators. Though not my favorite, this is the link I have handy:

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/main.aspx

It is good, but not my favorite...

And your military is generally supposed to be .5-1% in peace, and possibly up to 5% in war. Keep in mind that those are just guidelines, but much larger will fuxzor your economy and less will let nations rampage over your lands unchecked.

Please visit here (http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com) to find out your GDP and GDP per capita. Your military should be 2% or less of your population however the exact number is up to you. Make sure you can pay your soldiers and have some left over using your Military Budget. I recommend being able to pay each soldier $100,000 or more. This number should also inclide logistics personnel.

We can discuss further through telegrams.

Please visit here (http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com) to find out your GDP and GDP per capita. Your military should be 2% or less of your population however the exact number is up to you. Make sure you can pay your soldiers and have some left over using your Military Budget. I recommend being able to pay each soldier $100,000 or more. This number should also inclide logistics personnel.

We can discuss further through telegrams.

Thanks!

Your GDP is available at one of many NS economy calculators. Though not my favorite, this is the link I have handy:

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/main.aspx

It is good, but not my favorite...

And your military is generally supposed to be .5-1% in peace, and possibly up to 5% in war. Keep in mind that those are just guidelines, but much larger will fuxzor your economy and less will let nations rampage over your lands unchecked.

Do you have to buy from the different stores on the forum? Or can you somehow produce equipment yourself?

Do you have to buy from the different stores on the forum? Or can you somehow produce equipment yourself?

You can produce your own things, but only Real Life equipment (RL) or things you design yourself. Everything else must be bought from a storefront. A list of storefronts can be found in my signature, as well as a link to the NSDraftroom. I reccomend posting any designs you have there first to work out their flaws.

You can then sell that stuff here, like I am doing at Black Rain Munitions.

I would like to know who came up with the 5% and how they came up with their number. You look at some examples at history and they had large numbers of men deployed and still had good economies.

I would like to know who came up with the 5% and how they came up with their number. You look at some examples at history and they had large numbers of men deployed and still had good economies.

Like who? (I'm not disagreeing, I just want to know so that we could list exceptions to the 5% rule. IIRC, the CSA during the civil war had 10% of its population under arms at its peak)

Like who? (I'm not disagreeing, I just want to know so that we could list exceptions to the 5% rule. IIRC, the CSA during the civil war had 10% of its population under arms at its peak)

Consider this. In 1944, German manufacturing hit its peak. And they had 5% or more in the armed services. In addition, they were hurt cause they couldn't trade and get the resources you need. But look at NS. There would be plenty of nations willing to trade. Thus you wouldn't have that problem. Then add in robotized factories, large numbers of women workers, sweatshops, or slaves, and while no recommended, you could have more than 5%. Your economy would just need to be 'trained' or robust enough for it.

I mean hell, if you knew the right nations, you could just import consumer products during war for little to no cost.

Consider this. In 1944, German manufacturing hit its peak. And they had 5% or more in the armed services. In addition, they were hurt cause they couldn't trade and get the resources you need. But look at NS. There would be plenty of nations willing to trade. Thus you wouldn't have that problem. Then add in robotized factories, large numbers of women workers, sweatshops, or slaves, and while no recommended, you could have more than 5%. Your economy would just need to be 'trained' or robust enough for it.

I mean hell, if you knew the right nations, you could just import consumer products during war for little to no cost.

Is that considering just the population of the Third Reich, or the population of all the subjugated states they had working for them (& could recruit from) as well?

The CSA on the other hand is a bit old to serve as a good example, but even so, though they had a total enlistment of about 750,000 out of a nine-million-odd population, that was over the full five years of the war - they didn't have that many serving at any one time. I doubt they had more than about 300,000 in uniform at any one point, which is about 3.3%

In 1944 Germany also had widespread shortages of just about everything, including war materiel. It's hardly a great example.

German arms manufacturing hit its peak rate of production in 1944 because beforehand management of the arms industry in Germany was terrible - so it's not a very good example, for what it was exemplifying. In 1936 Germany produced ... say ... 500 tanks per month and in 1944 it produced 800 at its max; that just means that German production in 1936 sucked massive balls and by a management miracle conducted by Albert Speer it was able to maximize production with limited materials. Had it had the same management in 1936 it would have produced three to five times the amount of armor it produced in 1944.

But, I really have no idea what you guys are arguing about. I'm just trying to increase my post count! Hopefully, this is relevant.

In 1944 Germany also had widespread shortages of just about everything, including war materiel. It's hardly a great example.

In that case, it probably had a lot to do with not having anyone to trade with, which he mentioned. Of course, Hitler's personal management of the war is also a major factor . . . but I digress. RL examples almost always have extensive circumstantial factors influencing that which we can observe, thus not being that useful as examples unless you are willing to look at quite a few factors.

Is that considering just the population of the Third Reich, or the population of all the subjugated states they had working for them (& could recruit from) as well?

The CSA on the other hand is a bit old to serve as a good example, but even so, though they had a total enlistment of about 750,000 out of a nine-million-odd population, that was over the full five years of the war - they didn't have that many serving at any one time. I doubt they had more than about 300,000 in uniform at any one point, which is about 3.3%

Nope. Because of extensions on the original recruitment, regiments that signed up in 1861 for a one year tour were still serving in 1865, even if it was a two year tour. The Congress kept extending the armies service.

There were 464,646 serving Confederate Regulars in 1862. A Total of about 1.1-1.4 Million served. The South was able to do this due to the use of slaves of course.

(This can Be found on Wiki as

Because of poor record-keeping, there is no accurate number that represents the strength of the Confederate States Army. Estimates range from 500,000 to 1,500,000 men who were involved at any time during the war. Reports from the War Department began at the end of 1861 (326,768 men), 1862 (449,439), 1863 (464,646), 1864 (400,787), and "last reports" (358,692). Estimates of enlistments throughout the war were 1,227,890 to 1,406,180.

Or in a set of Highly Rated Scholarly articles composed by Gary Gallagher, the noted Civil war Historian. When purchasing on tape I advise you fast-forward through the credentials, they are pointlessly long.

In that case, it probably had a lot to do with not having anyone to trade with, which he mentioned.
This is a completely baseless assertion. Furthermore, it implies that Germany, France, Italy, Benelux, Poland, Etc. had no domestic consumer goods production capacity before the war, which is known to be untrue.

This is a completely baseless assertion. Furthermore, it implies that Germany, France, Italy, Benelux, Poland, Etc. had no domestic consumer goods production capacity before the war, which is known to be untrue.

The first note was a bit overreaching, to say the least. I did not suggest for a moment that it was the complete cause, merely that it was a factor. Now the rest of your argument, however, presents a very good point.

If you'll note, from the portion of my argument that you gut out, my conclusion was at least rather ambiguous and at most supportive of your general position.

Sorry for answering the original topic :p Seriously though, don't digress so much, guys...take it to General.

I'm not sure I agree with the policy of implied trade with every non-RPing nation. My stance is that trade is open with all RPers unless it is specifically closed for some reason, but it is important to keep in mind the separation between the game and the forum. This is a separate world; game features like telegrams, UN membership, and the issues you answer have no impact on it. I think it's a little suspect to assume I'm trading with people that don't exist in II roleplay.

Sorry for answering the original topic :p Seriously though, don't digress so much, guys...take it to General.

I'm not sure I agree with the policy of implied trade with every non-RPing nation. My stance is that trade is open with all RPers unless it is specifically closed for some reason, but it is important to keep in mind the separation between the game and the forum. This is a separate world; game features like telegrams, UN membership, and the issues you answer have no impact on it. I think it's a little suspect to assume I'm trading with people that don't exist in II roleplay.

That's an interesting concept . . . roleplay being completely seperate from the actual game program? I had always considered this an extention--how one answers issues, after all, crafts one's nation, which defines one's population (not so much an issue of issues, I admit), economy, and all sorts of stuff that certainly plays a major role in RPing.

Crap, digression.

In 1944 Germany also had widespread shortages of just about everything, including war materiel. It's hardly a great example.

Mainly because they did not have access to it, and when they did, they failed to transport it properly or develop it. It is reasonable to assume that a NS nation would not have severe shortages unless it did not trade or was under blockade.

Nope. Because of extensions on the original recruitment, regiments that signed up in 1861 for a one year tour were still serving in 1865, even if it was a two year tour. The Congress kept extending the armies service.

There were 464,646 serving Confederate Regulars in 1862. A Total of about 1.1-1.4 Million served. The South was able to do this due to the use of slaves of course.

(This can Be found on Wiki as

Because of poor record-keeping, there is no accurate number that represents the strength of the Confederate States Army. Estimates range from 500,000 to 1,500,000 men who were involved at any time during the war. Reports from the War Department began at the end of 1861 (326,768 men), 1862 (449,439), 1863 (464,646), 1864 (400,787), and "last reports" (358,692). Estimates of enlistments throughout the war were 1,227,890 to 1,406,180.

Or in a set of Highly Rated Scholarly articles composed by Gary Gallagher, the noted Civil war Historian. When purchasing on tape I advise you fast-forward through the credentials, they are pointlessly long.

Though I don't have Gallagher's stuff, I do have a lot of Civil War info in general (used to be a hobby). It looks like the figures you are giving include soldiers which were part of the army on paper but weren't actually present, which is a major factor as by 1864 desertion rates in the Confederate armies had topped 50% in many cases.

Lemme find a quick link to illustrate what I'm talking about...

er, wait, moar digressing. Bah. Ummm...

So yeah, trading with nations. I tend to figure that most of the world is just isolationist. They're there... sort of... but to assume you are trading with them when they have had no say in the matter isn't quite right.

Digression..... Hmmmm...
On subject:

I have always been under the understanding that though The game may produce your population, you are in complete control of the demographic. My nation personally is a Catholic Super Country where if you live past fifty you are either a saint or very hard to catch. To keep icily proper though I have a high birth rate, frowning on Birth control as we Catholic Empires do. Is there anything to stop me from having 70% of my population laboring away for the Empire? The rest being not fit for my ideals of citizenship, and done away with? If we use the old adage of 3:1 Logistics to every soldier could I not have a 15% in the military. (That previous point was simply conjecture.) I don't think a nation has to be limited to a certain cap, depending on the sociological structure of your nation it can be fairly high. (For me my unemployment rate was {don't know now} at around 9%, and the economy seemed to be functioning (So far as a calculator written by a twenty year old in his basement can tell.)

Admittedly quality suffers quite a ways before 15% but this is about economics.

@ New Manth: Could be, I know desertions were quite high especially under Bragg, after Chattanugah (Sp?) especially . But for them to desert they had to enlist. I must claim ignorance if they were in battle or not though.