NationStates Jolt Archive

Just to point this out, I am trying to help Newbies and people who lose wars a lot

Intro

Welcome to my guide of modern warfare. Throughout this, I will help nations with military tactics, MT weapons, PMT weapons, peacekeeping and much, much more. To start off, I would like to thank Tom Clancy, Sun Tzu and my Grandfather for the tactics I will share today. When I was seven or eight, my grandfather would tell me stories about the Korean war and his front-line experiences. Just to tell you more about him, he was a Platoon commander for the US army, in the 101st airborne. He taught me much about tactics and courage. This inspired me to go to the library and read books on strategy, such as The Art of War (Sun Tzu), Power Plays (Tom Clancy) and Gaunt's Ghosts (Dan Abnett). Then, when I first got my computer, I spent hours a day analysing tactics from the most famous battles of all time. I now wrap this up and shall continue with the guide


Armoured warfare

Tanks were first developed during the first World war. They were proved effective during the blitzkrieg of 1939-1940. Tanks are also good for inspiring fear in civilians and infantry, due to their size (the bigger the better:D)

Massed tank divisions are good, but also remember the need for support. Tanks cannot function without supplies or infantry support. Balance wins the war, so focus on light elements to support your slower, heavier elements.

Infantry

Infantry. The backbone of the military. Kraven Capitol Police, Kahanistan Republic Marines, Sumguyan Royal Guard, They're all still infantry, and still make up an army. Infantry are crucial to an army, axs their flexibility both physically and mentally can turn the tide of any battle, especially if they are commanded by skilled tactician.

One weakness that infantry posses is pycological. Fear. That is the only word that explains it. This can be used to your advantage, but it will not work as well if used on experienced troops.

Psychological warfare

Fear. The bane of great commanders for centuries. This weapons can make a soldier beg for mercy. This tactic was first used by Alexander the Great, who would leave soldiers in occupied territories. These men spread Greek culture and inbred with the locals, lessening the chance for a rebellion

Recently, commanders have used aircraft to drop pamphlets over enemy camps, resulting in desertions and a drop in morale.

more to come later

Those sections are... rather small.

i agree, but i'm tired.

Those sections are... rather small.

Alexander was not the first to use fear to gain control. The Assyrians were doing it far before Alexander's time.

These men spread Greek culture and inbred with the locals, lessening the chance for a rebellion


Oh, the humanity!

"Books on strategy" such as Gaunt's Ghosts. A fictional novel that relies an awful lot on "RUN THIS WAY! RUN THAT WAY! SHOOT!" or "SIT HERE AND SHOOT!" or "SIT HERE AND DRINK!" Yeah, real tactical.

"Books on Strategy" such as Clancy's Power Play? A fictional novel written by a hack of an author who's tactical relevance lies somewhere in the late 70's and has the "Good guys" winning through sheer MAN power, while the bad guys [Either communists, terrorists, Islamic terrorists, the Chinese or Chinese-Islamic-Terrorists, or Columbians] make basic fundamental mistakes that are covered in "Terrorism 101".

"Books on Strategy" such as Sun Tzu's "Art of war" which is actually a philosopical text on warfare with some very very basic 101 tactics like "Hit their flanks".


Actual strategic books such as "The Third World War" by Sir John Winthrop Hackett, which goes into literal chapters of strategic and tactical doctrines, and "The Third World War, The Untold Story" Sir John Winthrop Hackett, which goes into further insane details in equipment and how to apply said equipment into the field of battle, seem to be widely missed.

Or perhaps even easier books to find like "War in the Middle East" by John Westwood, which goes into actual battlefield tactics and mistakes made.

Or, ya know, anything by Tuchman or Clark.

These "tactics" of yours are nothing of the sort. You don't take into account terrain, application of each individual unit and it's potential on the battlefield, they're broad sweeping generalizations that are barely noticeable in the fictional literature you read.

At least guides by other folks that didn't know what they were doing tactically went into detail so you could pick out where they went wrong. You do nothing of the sort to begin with.

Also, considering you've lost every NS conflict you've been in I cannot see how you'd be qualified to write a tactics or even a general strategic guide.

It's nothing personal, Caz, but I hope you'll forgive me in saying that it sounds like you probably aren't the most qualified guy who could be writing this.

EDIT: Heh. I got pipped.

If you don't want to go into a huge amount of detail when reading about tactics, an officer's Aide De Memoir/hand book from a western army can be a very useful little thing if you can get hold of one. They also tend to have other nice bits and bobs like radio protocals and how to call fire support, which if incorporated into your RP make it seem a lot more realisitic.

But yeah even Clancy's non fiction books don't exactly have much real tactical or strategic gems appart from "american uber tech pwnz you" and everythign always goes right for the americans unless we need a plot point.

As for the mdoern GW books they are pure pulp compared to the brain hurting loopiness of Ian Watson's stuff.

The very second you mentioned WH40k 'books' (I shudder to refer to those semen-dripping collections of trash as anything approaching a proper novel) as being useful for learning about anything remotely connected to the military, I stopped paying attention.

At the very least don't include fiction (unless it is very, very good, such as Team Yankee by Harold Coyle) in your list of good books to read. Sun Tzu's Art of War is the only useful literature you mentioned, and even that is fairly basic knowledge.

The very second you mentioned WH40k 'books' (I shudder to refer to those semen-dripping collections of trash as anything approaching a proper novel) as being useful for learning about anything remotely connected to the military, I stopped paying attention.

At the very least don't include fiction (unless it is very, very good, such as Team Yankee by Harold Coyle) in your list of good books to read. Sun Tzu's Art of War is the only useful literature you mentioned, and even that is fairly basic knowledge.


Oh really? Then tell me, oh so great judge of books, can you write a book, a novel that is worth reading? If not, then STFU and GTFO. They are connected the military as, lets see, the guys who made Warhammer had to study tactics when making their armies, and writing their fluff and whatnot. The Tau tactics in their codex are well-based in real life.

Unless you actually, you know, keep an open mind and read those books and the information, you have no right to talk and should stop talking about stuff you know little about.

Besides, those authors put in more effort and dedication that I doubt you ever will to something like that. Your dissing of them is downright disgusting.

Oh really? Then tell me, oh so great judge of books, can you write a book, a novel that is worth reading? If not, then STFU and GTFO. They are connected the military as, lets see, the guys who made Warhammer had to study tactics when making their armies, and writing their fluff and whatnot. The Tau tactics in their codex are well-based in real life.

Unless you actually, you know, keep an open mind and read those books and the information, you have no right to talk and should stop talking about stuff you know little about.

Besides, those authors put in more effort and dedication that I doubt you ever will to something like that. Your dissing of them is downright disgusting.

The ability to criticise something is not directly related to your ability to replicate it. Otherwise you would be morally-bound to like every single film, book, painting, piece of music, etc that you ever saw.

Go Read 'How to Make War'. Talks about Ground Combat, Air Operations, Naval Operations, Human Factors, Special Weapons, Warfare by the Numbers, Moving the Goods, and Tools of the Trade all in a Cold-War feel. Compares Western stuff with Russian stuff...

For today's combat, there are editions of the books that include n00ks etc....GET THAT BOOK!!!

That was arguably the worst strategy guide I've ever read. There wasn't a single mention of artillery, naval forces, or even airplanes. Psychological warfare, mind you, extends well beyond dropping pamphlets, which are probably the worst version of pysch ops.

Oh, and how many countries currently occupy you? Nine?

That was arguably the worst strategy guide I've ever read. There wasn't a single mention of artillery, naval forces, or even airplanes. Psychological warfare, mind you, extends well beyond dropping pamphlets, which are probably the worst version of pysch ops.

Oh, and how many countries currently occupy you? Nine?

Oooh, zing!

i agree, but i'm tired.

Can I respectfully suggest to you that in future you take the time to properly finish your posts before submitting them, to avoid responses like this?

Another point I have out of many flaws. 'The bigger the tanks, the better.' Not all the time. Many times, these tanks would be more vurnerable to air attacks and sea attacks. It would be slow-moving and can be hit from it's flank with relative ease. The turret most likely would take some time to swivel to face the flanker and then by that time, units could attack the huge tank from the front...

Oh really? Then tell me, oh so great judge of books, can you write a book, a novel that is worth reading? If not, then STFU and GTFO. They are connected the military as, lets see, the guys who made Warhammer had to study tactics when making their armies, and writing their fluff and whatnot. The Tau tactics in their codex are well-based in real life.

Unless you actually, you know, keep an open mind and read those books and the information, you have no right to talk and should stop talking about stuff you know little about.

Besides, those authors put in more effort and dedication that I doubt you ever will to something like that. Your dissing of them is downright disgusting.

Actually, I can write a book worth reading. Hell, if I was patient enough I could write a novel and pay off a good deal of the money I owe for college.

As for keeping an open mind until I read those books? I have, and I have judged them to be made of fail and AIDS. Not afflicted with them—made of them. The geeks at Games Workshop know about as much about tactics and strategy as a three-year-old who's watched some History Channel specials. All of their fluff reeks of wankerage and it's quite obvious they have absolutely zero idea of what they're doing.

Oooh, zing!



Can I respectfully suggest to you that in future you take the time to properly finish your posts before submitting them, to avoid responses like this?

Or if you read where it says more to come later...you all could have avoided all the negative responses and waited...but of course that would require logical thinking...which is lacking on NS 99% of the time...

Actually, I can write a book worth reading. Hell, if I was patient enough I could write a novel and pay off a good deal of the money I owe for college.

As for keeping an open mind until I read those books? I have, and I have judged them to be made of fail and AIDS. Not afflicted with them—made of them. The geeks at Games Workshop know about as much about tactics and strategy as a three-year-old who's watched some History Channel specials. All of their fluff reeks of wankerage and it's quite obvious they have absolutely zero idea of what they're doing.


To each their own I suppose, and while opinions are free and all that jazz, do you really need to spike your criticisms with such vitriol?

Coincidentally, if you did write a book which spectacularly flopped and didn't pay off your colelge debts, in fact entrenching you more firmly in mindless drudgery, toil and mind-numbing depression...How would you feel if someone on some random forum started calling it semen drenched rubbish thats made of AIDS?

Not much I'd reckon ;)

Anyway! I reckon we ought to get back on topic, no? :)

To each their own I suppose, and while opinions are free and all that jazz, do you really need to spike your criticisms with such vitriol?

The simple answer: yes, I do.

I suppose I just grew up a very caustic sort of person.

Coincidentally, if you did write a book which spectacularly flopped and didn't pay off your colelge debts, in fact entrenching you more firmly in mindless drudgery, toil and mind-numbing depression...How would you feel if someone on some random forum started calling it semen drenched rubbish thats made of AIDS?

You are assuming that my work is on the same level of GW's 'works'. I assure you it is nothing of the sort.

The simple answer: yes, I do.

I suppose I just grew up a very caustic sort of person.


It's very subdued. I hardly noticed it.

He seems quiet and polite, though at the same time very, very angry.

He seems quiet and polite

Perhaps it's the small font size? ;)

Well... I do not mean to be offensive, but... if you're going to write a thread on tactics... you should probably improve your own first. I've only RP'ed in one engagement with you... and it went like this.

Cazelia-
Ingram sat at his desk, in a nicely fashioned tuxedo. In front of him stood the building's messenger, Tom Hogart "Mr. Hasley, our Guard Rail 9 system reports that the Government of Kroando has been gassing civilians" he said, as Ingram was looking though Guard rail 9 photos "Do we authorization from the President?" asked Ingram "yes sir, he has given us a green light" replied Hogart "Good, mobilize three Airborne Divisions and a team of Ghosts. Notify the other Generals to mobilize" he said "Yes sir"

Cazelia-
Two dozen C-130 transports filled with infantry, tanks and supplies took of from New Caz'e City, a city of the sea. The troops inside were Marines and Airborne, the best the Imperial Democracy had to offer, and their wrath was set lose upon the Genocidal Government of Kroando

12 midnight, Over Hexon

The loud sound of Metallica played loudly through the speakers, as the Marines said prayers, loaded their weapons and organized battle plans. Then they jumped, as the hundreds of parachutes opened up and drifted to the ground
Well the first problem is what you sent. At the most you had what, 1,500 men? Taking into consideration that I have 25,000 of my best troops on the island, that force is rather... small. But lets look a little deeper. You sent these transports without doing anything else before... the consequences... well, lets see.

Kroando-
Hexon

"Sir... we've got roughly twenty four major aircraft moving right at us...", the NCO shouted through his headset, not sure what to do. The Lieutenant in charge walked over. "Enough of this shit. We're not radioing in for permission...", the Lieutenant had seen roughly twenty breaches of Hexonian Airspace in the last few weeks. The Officer picked up a phone and began speaking... "7th Anti-Airborn Missile Battery... we are relaying target information... knock those fuckers out of the sky."

And with that the LACI Missile Systems were moving. Each pod holding three massive missiles, with a range exceeding 500miles, was manually turned to face the C-130's approaching the island. With more RADAR, LADAR and IR covering the island and it's surroundings than any place on earth, these C-130's were locked and targeted in under a second. And the moment the C-130's broke the 200km airspace boundry, the missiles were flying. Four Los Angeles Class Interceptor Missiles were fired at each C-130. More than enough to destroy the hulking aircraft. These massive transports had no means of evading the missiles, their chaff and flares would do little due to the fact that there was simply too much RADAR-LADAR-IR focused on them... even if a missile or two were thrown off... the others would do the job... and it's not like they could dodge the missiles. There was no way the Cazelian C-130's would get anywhere near the island.

I had massive AA set up around the island... trying to send C-130 transports over it without at least trying to knock out the AA is one of the worst tactics imaginable. Those ducks are incapable of avoiding AA missiles... so that mission should have ended there.

Cazelia-
There was always a margin for error, as four of the 24 aircraft survived, each one roughly carrying 50 men plus supplies. The men managed to bail from the aircraft, along with the crew...
Alright, even though it is entirely unrealistic that any aircraft would survive (I fired 4 missiles at each, and they are incapable of avoiding them), whatever, I like a ground fight. But now you have 200 men against 25,000. Even if they all landed, what then? How would you supply them? What would they do against a force with heavy artillery, armor, air support and... twenty five times their numbers? The tactics are lacking.

Kroando
Hexon - Cazelian Bailout Zone

Some how four of the C-130's had made it over the island before they were brought down by the SDCI Missile Systems... and now there were roughly 200 Cazelian Soldiers on Hexon. The moment the aircraft seemed as if they would survive, Kroandan Forces were repositioning themselves to encounter the threat of infantry on the island.

The area the Cazelians had landed in was quickly surrounded, as G-24 Strikers, Puma IFV's, ID-57 Decimators and humvees swarmed around. Over 1,600 Legionnaires were let out around the men, keeping a loose perimeter so as to stay out of the range of their small arms. However that did not mean they would stay quiet. The 45 odd G-24 Strikers fired roughly 90 AvK-2 SteelFire Missiles into troop concentrations (picked up by satellite imagery). They were accompanied by the ID-57 Decimators, twelve in all, which sprayed the area with 30mm Gatling Fire from a safe distance (1.5km's) away. But the infantry did the brunt of the work, deploying 120mm Mortars which rained down chaos on the unorganized defenders.

However all of this was simply procedure. The real fire would come from the C-24 Big Guns located over 30 miles away. An entire battery of them now had a target, twelve 240mm guns began dumping two shells a minute each on the location of the Cazelians, twenty four 300lb high explosive shells landing every minute on the 200 Cazelians...
Well, your two hundred men then went up against an entire army. But then you stopped posting. Bad tactics and even worse form. A simple dignified 'I surrender', would have been a decent way to duck out of the thread, but the classic, posting stop is not good.

Again, I don't mean to be an ass, but your tactics have not yet been perfected.

Due to the nature of NS, I don't think existing books on strategy or tactics would be all that germane to the topic.

I know that doesn't say a lot in and of itself, but think about this. NS armies are generally about 20-40 times as large as the largest armies in history. These armies control frontages only about 2 times as large as in real life. Do you really think that the same rules apply to NS warfare as RL warfare?

Due to the nature of NS, I don't think existing books on strategy or tactics would be all that germane to the topic.

I know that doesn't say a lot in and of itself, but think about this. NS armies are generally about 20-40 times as large as the largest armies in history. These armies control frontages only about 2 times as large as in real life. Do you really think that the same rules apply to NS warfare as RL warfare?

I think existing books on strat or tactics would be 'germane' to this topic. Yes, the same basic rules apply. Flanking manevuer, mass paratrooper drop after taking out AA defenses, etc. I can go on, but the point is; Tactics used in NS many times resembles RL tactics

...the point is; Tactics used in NS many times resembles RL tactics

Yeah. Though usually the tactics of 1914.

I dont know about that. Especially in regards to aerial warfare. NS Nations do not hesitate to throw 200+ aircraft into a single engagement... where as in real life, the largest aerial strikes consist of a sortie of what... 3? Again in the realm of missile strikes. When was the last time any RL nation launched 500 cruise missiles in a single wave? Never? There are distinct differences between RL Warfare and NS Warfare. There are also similarities, but to say they are even close to the same is wrong.

Yeah. Though usually the tactics of 1914.

Who do you rp against lol....I use modernized tactics...none of that trench warfare crap...i like it when people rp that why...makes it easy for me to annihilate their defenses and go around them at the same time

I dont know about that. Especially in regards to aerial warfare. NS Nations do not hesitate to throw 200+ aircraft into a single engagement... where as in real life, the largest aerial strikes consist of a sortie of what... 3? Again in the realm of missile strikes. When was the last time any RL nation launched 500 cruise missiles in a single wave? Never? There are distinct differences between RL Warfare and NS Warfare. There are also similarities, but to say they are even close to the same is wrong.
Here is a SMALL list of tactics that is used in NS and are RL tactics:


encirclement
overwhelming the opponent
hit and run
suppressive fire
suicide attack *Yes that's a tactic*
line tactics
fortification
Electronic Countermeasures

Consider the fact that if you have enough troops to line up shoulder to shoulder from one end of the front line to another several times then things change considerably. Armored breakthroughs are far less effective against NS sized armies because they can simply plug the gaps with their massive reserves and cause an enormous amount of casualties. When troops or anything really is concentrated in this way you're going to take lots and lots of casualties for ever-decreasing gains.

Flanking works in real life because you will rarely have enough troops to ensure a solid defense in depth everywhere, but in NS you have more than enough to defend anywhere more than adequately, to plug any gaps and bog down any advance.

Some of you say that the attacker will have an advantage too in these situations, but there are diminishing returns as far as more troops go on either side, but it applies in particular to the attacker. In 1918 the Germans were pretty much at critical mass in this regard and took enormous casualties in their spring offensive for little gain. I highly doubt when this is even worse against more defenders that an NS army can employ similar tactics.

Yeah, next time, you might want to compare this....thing... to other people's guides. You'll notice a distinct difference.

"Books on Strategy" such as Clancy's Power Play? A fictional novel written by a hack of an author who's tactical relevance lies somewhere in the late 70's and has the "Good guys" winning through sheer MAN power, while the bad guys [Either communists, terrorists, Islamic terrorists, the Chinese or Chinese-Islamic-Terrorists, or Columbians] make basic fundamental mistakes that are covered in "Terrorism 101".

".

Please, enlighten me on how he is a hack.

The simple fact that I have read the existing guides are what stop me from making a guide.

Tom Clancy is marmite. You either love or hate.

Oh really? Then tell me, oh so great judge of books, can you write a book, a novel that is worth reading? If not, then STFU and GTFO. They are connected the military as, lets see, the guys who made Warhammer had to study tactics when making their armies, and writing their fluff and whatnot. The Tau tactics in their codex are well-based in real life.

Unless you actually, you know, keep an open mind and read those books and the information, you have no right to talk and should stop talking about stuff you know little about.

Besides, those authors put in more effort and dedication that I doubt you ever will to something like that. Your dissing of them is downright disgusting.

Coming from a member of ESUS, this was not really unexpected when most ESUS tactics seem to rely wholly on numbers, and such crappy sci-fi which rarely scratches the surface on actual strategy bar "We're going this way now, shoot teh enemeez as we go."

Simple fact is the "tactics" cited in WH40k, and in the 'fluff' are absolutely useless on any kind of level bar 'idiot-warz' here on NS. Open minds loose wars when your tactics blatantly involve the sacrifice of entire armies as a singular strategy.

There is no military affiliation between Games Workshop and the United Kingdom's Armed Forces, so any such concept that they "work with the military" is completely laughable, the most those guys do is go paint balling together, barely squad-level combat.

Actual military historians and tacticians books that'd be of use you can find here on the internet or at a half-decent bookshop under the "Military" section of a good bookstore.


Star Wars, Star Trek and Warhammer 40k are not good sources to base your tactics off of unless you're going for the "idiot" level of tactics, resulting in easy defeat.

Oh really? Then tell me, oh so great judge of books, can you write a book, a novel that is worth reading? If not, then STFU and GTFO.

The ability to analyse material is not directly related to the ability to create it. If it was, it would be virtually impossible to review movies or videogames, as no single person can single-handedly be capable of producing either.

This is a simple ad hominem attack, and has nothing to do with your opponent's argument at all.

They are connected the military as, lets see, the guys who made Warhammer had to study tactics when making their armies, and writing their fluff and whatnot. The Tau tactics in their codex are well-based in real life.

You require no connection to the military whatsoever in order to study third-party sources. Simply skimming a reference on modern tactics is enough to get the information used for the Tau, and most of the other 40K races are even more simplistic [brute force, horde attacks, etc].

The 40K authors are no more connected to the military than anyone else who's been to a library and skim-read a couple of books on modern tactics.

Unless you actually, you know, keep an open mind and read those books and the information, you have no right to talk and should stop talking about stuff you know little about.

Why do you assume he hasn't read the material being referenced?

Besides, those authors put in more effort and dedication that I doubt you ever will to something like that. Your dissing of them is downright disgusting.

So what? Putting time into something doesn't make it a valid source. Plenty of time was put into the development of Serious Sam, does that mean it's a valid source of information on infantry tactics?

Talk about snowball effect. I have this feeling that any minute now, Fris is going to come in and smite everyone.

Tanks were first developed during the first World war. They were proved effective during the blitzkrieg of 1939-1940. Tanks are also good for inspiring fear in civilians and infantry, due to their size (the bigger the better)

Better to say at Cambrai in 1917 and the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918. Blitzkreig only worked because the Germans had tanks with radio and thus could coordinate with the airforce and artillery.

So Blitzkrieg is really less about KEKEKE armor-spam then it is about combined arms and inter-service coordination.

That was arguably the worst strategy guide I've ever read. There wasn't a single mention of artillery, naval forces, or even airplanes. Psychological warfare, mind you, extends well beyond dropping pamphlets, which are probably the worst version of pysch ops.

Oh, and how many countries currently occupy you? Nine?

XD Someone quote that.

No offense Cazelia.. but my advise to you is to write up your guide on your computer first. That way you have all the time in the world to make it detailed and thorough and it doesn't end up being the byproduct of a moment's whim like this seemed to be.

XD Someone quote that.

No offense Cazelia.. but my advise to you is to write up your guide on your computer first. That way you have all the time in the world to make it detailed and thorough and it doesn't end up being the byproduct of a moment's whim like this seemed to be.

*sigh* I don't have MS word right now, but I could try it on notepad

Talk about snowball effect. I have this feeling that any minute now, Fris is going to come in and smite everyone.
*hides under a table*

Might want to flesh out the description of armour, infantry and psy war. Also various methods of attack on different types of terrain, counterattacks, defensive tactics, air warfare, artillery, combined arms, etc. would be most useful.

*hides under a table*

Might want to flesh out the description of armour, infantry and psy war. Also various methods of attack on different types of terrain, counterattacks, defensive tactics, air warfare, artillery, combined arms, etc. would be most useful.

thanks for the tip. I'll include it on my soon to be updated version. And the reason this thing is so short is because my computer crashed while I was in the middle of writing it, so I had to do it again

*sigh* I don't have MS word right now, but I could try it on notepad

Ah well, in that case you're an ideal candidate to convert to the wondrous creation that is Open Office (http://www.openoffice.org/)!

*sigh* I don't have MS word right now, but I could try it on notepad

Open Office. (http://www.openoffice.org/)

Ah well, in that case you're an ideal candidate to convert to the wondrous creation that is Open Office (http://www.openoffice.org/)!

ummm....ok, thanks

Ah well, in that case you're an ideal candidate to convert to the wondrous creation that is Open Office (http://www.openoffice.org/)!

No evangelism in the forums. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/emot-ph.gif