NationStates Jolt Archive

OK, I have had this question that needs to be answered,
"Do RL human rights laws have any basis on what happens in the NS world?"

For example, it is a violation of RL international law to attack a hospital ship. Does that make NS attacks on hospital ships illegal also?

Secondly, it is against the RL international law to waqge a war of agression. Given that these kind of wars happen a lot on NS is it that there has been little outcry against these wars or is it that NS human rights is a bit of cafiteria international law, where people may pick and choose which laws suit them best.

Or is it that RL international law has no basis on NS international law?

Real life laws do not neccesarily exist in NS. That being said, it is generally a bad idea to shoot up someone's hospital ships.

seeing the UN has no basis on NS , i would think RL international law be the same as the UN

That being said, it is generally a bad idea to shoot up someone's hospital ships.

yur but it happens here

RL international law does not, for all intents and purposes, exist in NS, for breaking, I don't know, the Outer Space Treaty, has no repercussions outside a few people complaining. That said, most people do recognize RL international law in their NS nations, and will not hesitate to use the breaking of it as a provocation to war.

But, really, what are "human rights"? :p

But, really, what are "human rights"? :p

words on a bit of paper really

But, really, what are "human rights"? :p

A fairly species-limited set of standards.

International Law as we know it can't exist in NationStates because reality isn't a factor in NationStates.

International Law as we know it can't exist in NationStates because reality isn't a factor in NationStates.

What? WAR!

Fair enough. :p BL explains it best, IMO.

No, they don't really apply, unless the nation(s) involved decide to make them apply..

And then there are nations that decide to just to walk all over those laws on their dirty old boots..

I think people are just simply like, OMG U ATTAK MI CIVILIANS I GONA ATTAK U!!! Sometimes. And then, they're like, OMG THERE R NO HUMN RIGTS IN NS!!! Yah. Anyway. So. My point is across. :D

No, they don't really apply, unless the nation(s) involved decide to make them apply..

And then there are nations that decide to just to walk all over those laws on their dirty old boots..

But what makes it matter when I abide by the RL principles, and other nations dont.

Nothing prevents you from taking punitive actions against another nation that breaks a RL international law, though, even if they don't abide by it and you do.

Nothing prevents you from taking punitive actions against another nation that breaks a RL international law, though, even if they don't abide by it and you do.

And you would know about breaking international law

No need to get snide, now. :p

*snickers* then gets very quiet and small.

No need to get snide, now. :p

it wa0s just a joke

[OOC: Ideally, yes. In practice...I doubt it applies truly in entirety, and if it can ever be enforced. Realism FTW!]

what does ftw mean?

[OOC: Ideally, yes. In practice...I doubt it applies truly in entirety, and if it can ever be enforced. Realism FTW!]

NS is realpolitik. The majority of nations will intervene in whatever causes suit them; for example, my nation IC wants all Communists dead, NOW, but we recently dealt with The World Soviet Party to inherit a portion of conquered Cazelia. Then compare AMF and Doom. AMF, to my knowledge, has never been faced with a widespread coalition of nations shouting 'Dreadfire is inhumane, we must get rid of him omg'. Doom, on the other hand, has. The difference is that people believe that a bigass coalition has a better chance of beating Doom than AMF. Then there's the parliamentarian, republican, liberal-democratic nations of the Sovereign League, who've engaged in plenty of unnecessary invasions. People on NS do whatever they want that they think won't get them killed.

Who are Doom and AMF?

Two big baddies of MT Roleplay. They kill things. Unless something has changed since I left...

do International laws exist on NS...they aren't really laws mostly just things there is a consensus on...does my nation follow them...hell no...hospital ships are prime targets for my anti-shipping missiles and torpedoes..and POW's or convicts are turned into slaves...

Nothing prevents you from taking punitive actions against another nation that breaks a RL international law, though, even if they don't abide by it and you do.
Nor does anything stop another nation from deciding to make a pan cake out of you, and use that as a reason to..

do International laws exist on NS...they aren't really laws mostly just things there is a consensus on...does my nation follow them...hell no...hospital ships are prime targets for my anti-shipping missiles and torpedoes..and POW's or convicts are turned into slaves...

And people ask why I don't do to war.

*cough*Tartarystan*cough*

for sinking hospital ships and mass murdering refugees.

and denying it

Wow, someone actually sigged something I said

YES!!!!

Who are Doom and AMF?

Doomingsland and Automagfreek. Right now they're enemies, fighting each other and dragging their allies and enemies into their conflict. :(

words on a bit of paper really

Exactly what they are. Making up laws in an attempt to 'civilize' warfare is just silly.

~ Romandeos.

Who are Doom and AMF?

EDIT: Nvm, I see Kahanistan answered it...

Human Rights Laws, like Human Rights, only apply when you want them to.

LOL hy00m1n r1t3z!!!11111

>.>

Yeah I remember when someone claimed the 'Geneva Convention' I was all lawl.

Well, you have organizations that try and help enforce human rights, such as the UFAN. However, there are so many violations that it is hard foir them to keep uwith it all, besides just defending each oter from other random acts of war.

Then you have the NEATO treaty, which is the equivalent of the Geneva Convention. I think TPM made that.

Finally, you have the Theeb Accords, which deal mainly with slavery and the like.

Yeah I remember when someone claimed the 'Geneva Convention' I was all lawl.

I miight havedone thaton another forum, but I meant it like this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hKl2FjB1180

Seeing as UN serves to bring most of them to NS, I'd expect any UN nation to be abiding by UN rulings or (if he's lazy to read them all) similar RL international law.

Not so for non-UN ones.

The international law also didn't fall out from the sky, it had lots of roots in the basic understandings making international interaction possible.

Well, you have organizations that try and help enforce human rights, such as the UFAN. However, there are so many violations that it is hard foir them to keep uwith it all, besides just defending each oter from other random acts of war.

Then you have the NEATO treaty, which is the equivalent of the Geneva Convention. I think TPM made that.

Finally, you have the Theeb Accords, which deal mainly with slavery and the like.

Theeb is FT, I should start something like the Geneva Convention/ICJ mixed together on NS.

Theeb is FT, I should start something like the Geneva Convention/ICJ mixed together on NS.
And what would happen when a nation refuses to accept such a treaty? I know of a few nations that have quite a..impressive record of mis treating their conqured foes..

Seeing as UN serves to bring most of them to NS, I'd expect any UN nation to be abiding by UN rulings or (if he's lazy to read them all) similar RL international law.

Not so for non-UN ones.

The international law also didn't fall out from the sky, it had lots of roots in the basic understandings making international interaction possible.

NSUN is a game function. It doesn't transfer into II.

Theeb is FT, I should start something like the Geneva Convention/ICJ mixed together on NS.

Theeb is MT/PMT.

You are theing of the Equal Rights Agreement

And what would happen when a nation refuses to accept such a treaty? I know of a few nations that have quite a..impressive record of mis treating their conqured foes..

It would be if they go in. . . and then they violate the human rights, if they do not join and they are oppressive. . . you can just pull the nato card.

NSUN is a game function. It doesn't transfer into II.
Then I have 8 billion people. Are we fine with that?


Or, maybe, they do transfer only when you want them to?

Regardless of whether or not you're in the UN, it has no bearing on II RP. If you're a UN nation and choose to abide by its increasingly mundane resolutions, that's up to you. But the UN can't do jack to anybody. It can't do the special tribunal things, and it can't enforce or even set sanctions.

I know the practice.
The practice is that everybody apart from the increasingly rare RPers does whatever is most comfortable at the moment.

OTOH, if one tries to actually RP, UN resolutions are what he should take as international law. True, NS UN, as well as RL UN, has no nukes to drop, but a nation would be expelled from UN for violating its resolutions. If he isn't expelled, he either abides or doesn't really RP his nation, at least not by game mechanics.

But then again there are certain game mechanics that are NOT taken with you; for example, economy. If you respond to an issue which reduces your economy or, say, makes you a New York Times Democracy when you WANT to be a Compulsory Consumerist State, do you HAVE to RP it that way? Absolutely not. Nor, if your nation's info says that your air force is the terror of the region or that your lush forests have been bulldozed, do you need to RP either...in fact, the former wouldn't be taken seriously in all likelihood. So do you agree that some game mechanics don't translate?

Not exactly HAVE, but still are supposed to. Of course, it's often hard to bring NS nation to what you want of it, so there's a lot of tolerance. So if your NS page speaks of psychotic dictatorship and you try to RP a superliberal state, you're doing it wrong.

For instance, we all seem to agree that the economy and the budget translate into RP.


UN mechanics "don't translate" simply because of the commonplace "it's not convenient so I ignore it". Why/WTF did you join UN in the first place, if your nation doesn't plan to recognize its resolutions?

Should there be an IC organization, similar to the UN, that makes laws on human rights and attempts to enforce them?

Should there be an IC organization, similar to the UN, that makes laws on human rights and attempts to enforce them?

From where I stand, no. And even if I was a human rights kind of guy, I'd still be against the idea for the reason that the biggest human rights violators (Kraven) would be, for the most part, untouchable.

Should there be an IC organization, similar to the UN, that makes laws on human rights and attempts to enforce them?

'Attempts' is the key word. I would lay waste to that organization the minute it was founded...gotta make an example :p Just kidding. But not really.

More importantly, as BL pointed out, the biggest violators are going to ignore this stuff anyway, and are generally too strong to stop, especially when you consider that the 'third category', or the nations that don't violate human rights but don't go all-out for them either, isn't going to intervene. It's usually smaller nations that make a fuss about human rights.

Smaller nations and the Sovereign League, but they're going out of style I hear.

'Attempts' is the key word. I would lay waste to that organization the minute it was founded...gotta make an example :p Just kidding. But not really.

More importantly, as BL pointed out, the biggest violators are going to ignore this stuff anyway, and are generally too strong to stop, especially when you consider that the 'third category', or the nations that don't violate human rights but don't go all-out for them either, isn't going to intervene. It's usually smaller nations that make a fuss about human rights.

I dunno, i might do an IC conference to discuss it. . . if I will, it will be later this week.

Smaller nations and the Sovereign League, but they're going out of style I hear.

The SL was never a coherent alliance, just a bunch of similar nations that huddled together in Haven, really. I can't really remember them making a big deal in practice about human rights, but I'll take your word for it.

Smaller nations and the Sovereign League, but they're going out of style I hear.

Smaller nations or the SL? ;)

The SL was never a coherent alliance, just a bunch of similar nations that huddled together in Haven, really. I can't really remember them making a big deal in practice about human rights, but I'll take your word for it.

I beg to differ. They got awfully mad the first time I introduced the giant blender. Hehehe.

The SL was never a coherent alliance, just a bunch of similar nations that huddled together in Haven, really. I can't really remember them making a big deal in practice about human rights, but I'll take your word for it.

Yeah they have. They invaded BL for oppressing his population, and did something about Strator and his slave trade. Which brings us back to the Theeb Accords.

Yeah they have. They invaded BL for oppressing his population, and did something about Strator and his slave trade. Which brings us back to the Theeb Accords.

I will entertain this idea later this week

From where I stand, no. And even if I was a human rights kind of guy, I'd still be against the idea for the reason that the biggest human rights violators (Kraven) would be, for the most part, untouchable.
You aren't exactly a saint yourself..And don't go splitting hairs with Cazelia, either..We all know what you did, and that it would be a human right's violation irl..

Yeah they have. They invaded BL for oppressing his population, and did something about Strator and his slave trade. Which brings us back to the Theeb Accords.

Meh. They took police actions against those countries, yeah, but they were very small then. However, alliances like EVIL and the CA weren't really taken to task, nor was the CAD back when it was powerful.

You aren't exactly a saint yourself..And don't go splitting hairs with Cazelia, either..We all know what you did, and that it would be a human right's violation irl..

Erm...how am I splitting hairs or denying the incident? I know and accept that throwing a woman in a blender and then forcefeeding the remains to her parents is a terrible human rights violation.

Hmm, I didn't notice much this side of SL. But, well, seeing as it at least has some purpose, probably I'll have to consider it closer.

Little nations, IE the n00bz that n00k da W0rlD, insert a peacekeepin force.

Try to get the big nations with economic sanctions and theworks

Like I said, you also have UFAN, but it is comprised of mainly newer members, and thus it's harder for them to throw around a lot of weight. However, several UFAN members are taking on the CA, and a few are/were going to fight Doom before the AMF-Doom war thing broke out.

2NB:
SL nations aren't exactly n00bs. Some have been here and RPed since 2003.

Little nations, IE the n00bz that n00k da W0rlD, insert a peacekeepin force.

Try to get the big nations with economic sanctions and theworks

If they're big enough and powerful enough, sanctions will do nothing. Most likely, they'll just invade more countries to get the resources they need. At least, that's what I would do.

Erm...how am I splitting hairs or denying the incident? I know and accept that throwing a woman in a blender and then forcefeeding the remains to her parents is a terrible human rights violation.
And doing what you have been doing in Cazelia, under the extremely iffy excuse that the Cazelians are not human, isn't?

What goes around comes around..A invader might decide to give you a taste of your own medicine..After all turnabout is very much fair play.

What a third party in my country publishes does not represent my official IC viewpoint. And please stop the poorly-veiled invasion threats. If you want to attack me so bad, please do. It's better than you going "omfg what comes around goes around LOL!!!11one!"

2NB:
SL nations aren't exactly n00bs. Some have been here and RPed since 2003.

SL?

If they're big enough and powerful enough, sanctions will do nothing. Most likely, they'll just invade more countries to get the resources they need. At least, that's what I would do.

OK, then we will increase sanctioons, spread global condemnation, and plead other, large non-agressors, to go on the offensive on the agressor.

OOC:

In my opinion the Sovereign League has collapsed as per my last RP. In all of my RP's since I started NS ive tried to uphold basic Human Rights and Enforce them where I can but its a huge uphill battle one that it is being lost as most NS Players are Evil.

Either way NS Human Rights only exist when the nation whom launches the RP needs NS Human Rights to exist. The best success ive had with Human Rights in NS was the formation of the Theeb Accords & Strando Protocal.

V

OK, then we will increase sanctions, spread global condemnation, and plead other, large non-aggressors, to go on the offensive on the aggressor.

Global condemnation would hardly affect Kraven, AMF, or Doomingsland. Heck, even BL wouldn't cave in the light of universal condemnation.

What a third party in my country publishes does not represent my official IC viewpoint. And please stop the poorly-veiled invasion threats. If you want to attack me so bad, please do. It's better than you going "omfg what comes around goes around LOL!!!11one!"
I don't make threats, and that certainly was not a one, it was only a observation.

plus someone had to knock you off that high horse you keep placing yourself on

OOC: Only way to Enforce Human Rights on NS is to either Nuke Em or Invade Em :)

I don't make threats, and that certainly was not a one, it was only a observation.

plus someone had to knock you off that high horse you keep placing yourself on

Do you not understand the nature of RP? British Londinium RP's an evil nation that does horrible things. That does not mean that he personally believes Cazelians (who, in case you don't know, are not real) or any other race is inferior. That does not mean he supports putting people in blenders. He is acting IC. And people in general need to stop making jabs about 'you'd better get ready for Kraven to pwn you'. I forget if it was you specifically, but I saw a lot of those comments recently, and it's retarded.

Global condemnation would hardly affect Kraven, AMF, or Doomingsland. Heck, even BL wouldn't cave in the light of universal condemnation.

You bitched when I threatened to invade you, you bitched when SL, NATO, coalition invaded.

You bitched when I threatened to invade you, you bitched when SL, NATO, coalition invaded.

ICly, Clanny, ICly. And I bitch only because both are groups of pretentious individuals who think that, for some unknown magical reason, are better than every other NS nation on the forums.

ICly, Clanny, ICly. And I bitch only because both are groups of pretentious individuals who think that, for some unknown magical reason, are better than every other NS nation on the forums.

You bitched OOC'ly as well.

ICly, Clanny, ICly. And I bitch only because both are groups of pretentious individuals who think that, for some unknown magical reason, are better than every other NS nation on the forums.

That's not what I want the PN to be.

And please stop the poorly-veiled invasion threats. If you want to attack me so bad, please do. It's better than you going "omfg what comes around goes around LOL!!!11one!"

[*sigh* I did. You never responded, except for some OOC complaining. But I guess it really doesn't matter - though I'd really like an RP like that.]

Regardless of whether or not you're in the UN, it has no bearing on II RP. If you're a UN nation and choose to abide by its increasingly mundane resolutions, that's up to you. But the UN can't do jack to anybody. It can't do the special tribunal things, and it can't enforce or even set sanctions.

Actually, it's impossible to not have a UN resolution be enforced if you're in it. This has been established previously (check out my shennanigans regarding Law of the Sea).

OOC: Automagfreek makes its own laws regarding this issue, so any international standard has no bearing on Freekish policies or activities.

There are numerous conventions of international law dealing with war and human rights, and for UN members, ignoring these conventions right out is just that, right out:

Originally Posted by HotRodia http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/nation_states/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11280689&postcount=2)
Some nations choose to roleplay complete non-compliance with NSUN legislation, which means that they choose to roleplay as if the NSUN has no affect on them. While such persons may do what they wish in their own roleplay, the practice of ignoring NSUN legislation in roleplay is generally considered extremely bad form and often called godmoding.To add to Vault's comments (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12986696&postcount=44) on this, the only reason that the rulebreakers on the II forum are not expelled from the United Nations is by the mods' good graces. Policing roleplay on NSUN compliance is rather difficult and oftentimes subjective.

But noncompliance is still Godmoding.

There are numerous conventions of international law dealing with war and human rights, and for UN members, ignoring these conventions right out is just that, right out:

To add to Vault's comments (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12986696&postcount=44) on this, the only reason that the rulebreakers on the II forum are not expelled from the United Nations is by the mods' good graces. Policing roleplay on NSUN compliance is rather difficult and oftentimes subjective.

But noncompliance is still Godmoding.

Excuse me? Do you even RP at all, or are you just a displeased NSUNer trying to make it sound like the UN has any impact on things that go on in the forums (lets face it, general and RP are basically what these forums are about)? In my four years RPing here, we have always come to the conclusion that NSUN is a gameplay issue and not related to roleplaying.

People who don't know anything about II, the door is that way. Don't try to dictate to us how we run our nations because of gameplay, because gameplay is NOT rp. Get that into your brain before you even try to formulate a response.

Excuse me? Do you even RP at all, or are you just a displeased NSUNer trying to make it sound like the UN has any impact on things that go on in the forums (lets face it, general and RP are basically what these forums are about)? In my four years RPing here, we have always come to the conclusion that NSUN is a gameplay issue and not related to roleplaying.

People who don't know anything about II, the door is that way. Don't try to dictate to us how we run our nations because of gameplay, because gameplay is NOT rp. Get that into your brain before you even try to formulate a response.

Frankly, none of the major NS RPers are not even in the UN. I'm not, for example.

But seriously, Omigod, if you do not like the IC actions of some nations go out there and enforce stuff IC.

Take your fleet to sea and challenge the IQN, your airforce to the skies to fight the Arma Caelum Imperiae, or your troops to the field to confront the Sentinels.

And buy me popcorn while you're at it.

Then I have 8 billion people. Are we fine with that?




I am.

Excuse me? Do you even RP at all, or are you just a displeased NSUNer trying to make it sound like the UN has any impact on things that go on in the forums (lets face it, general and RP are basically what these forums are about)? In my four years RPing here, we have always come to the conclusion that NSUN is a gameplay issue and not related to roleplaying.

People who don't know anything about II, the door is that way. Don't try to dictate to us how we run our nations because of gameplay, because gameplay is NOT rp. Get that into your brain before you even try to formulate a response.


I agree with this statement 110%.

The bottom line is this, as Questers said, gameplay does not and cannot have any effect on roleplaying. The two have always and will always remain seperate, because quite simply any fusion of the two would be:

A: Totally impossible to enforce given the size of the roleplaying community in I.I. You would have to employ DOZENS of moderators to constantly keep up with every bit of RP that transpires, and essentially the entire nature of this site will be destroyed because RP will suddenly become totally dependent on gameplay. And what of secret IC roleplays? Is the NSUN suddenly going to godmod its way into knowing everything every nation does?

B: Impractical, because it violates free form RP etiquette, which is what this entire community is based on. The NSUN would likely then consist of only gameplayers, since no RPer is going to want to be forced to play his/her nation based on UN resolutions anyways.

C: Exclusionary, because it demands that ALL NSUN nations and their populaces behave a certain way, which is unfair to a RPer who plays his people as either a warrior culture, bands of barbarians, or simply alien/fantasy beings. It's unfair to demand that a RPer who wants to be in the NSUN change the entire basis of his nation to appease some meaningless organization that does not actually DO anything.

And who is HotRodia to make such judgements as to what is and isn't godmodding? Last time I checked, the moderators do not handle godmodding, as it is up to the community to accept or ignore what another player does.

NSUN is sometimes needed fo practical gameplay purposes(like setting regions password etc.), especially then region founder has died. Connecting it to RP-ing would be ridiculous.

Well, you have organizations that try and help enforce human rights, such as the UFAN. However, there are so many violations that it is hard foir them to keep uwith it all, besides just defending each oter from other random acts of war.

Then you have the NEATO treaty, which is the equivalent of the Geneva Convention. I think TPM made that.

Finally, you have the Theeb Accords, which deal mainly with slavery and the like.

I laugh at that...I will never end slavery in the Imperial Kingdom...its all convicts and pow's..except for occasional raids into developing countries...and such...someone has to work the mines and things of Gataway...and my citizens are too good to do labor meant for lesser peoples ;)

I laugh at that...I will never end slavery in the Imperial Kingdom...its all convicts and pow's..except for occasional raids into developing countries...and such...someone has to work the mines and things of Gataway...and my citizens are too good to do labor meant for lesser peoples ;)

Then lets hope AMF invades you.

Do you even RP at all ... ?Yes. I am also quite adept at ping-ponging. What's your point?

In my four years RPing here, we have always come to the conclusion that NSUN is a gameplay issue and not related to roleplaying.I think it's pretty well-established (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=490188) that the United Nations is both a Gameplay and roleplay device. I don't write the forum stickies; I just quote them.

Don't try to dictate to us how we run our nations ....I'm not. I do believe that in the very post I quoted (provided you even read it), it says, "such persons may do what they wish in their own roleplay." But there is a large number of roleplayers who consider it Godmoding to ignore NS stats as if they have no effect on their nations, including the effects UN resolutions. If you don't like these effects, you can vote against resolutions you dislike, you can exploit loopholes, or you can resign. No one's "dictating" that you do anything.

OOC:

Part of the reason Vetaka as an IC nation attempts to enforce Human Rights is the fact that it provides extremely excellent Role Play. Nations around NS from the Doomani to Clandonia provide such brilliant and exciting opportunities to engage in Role Play and well at the end of the day just have fun with it, in that respects to what Questers said I agree Gameplay is not really RP. Take Gataway for example if I had time id love to RP with him in perhaps a RP Situation where by Vetakan Commandos attempt to free some of his slaves in his mines whether he'd accept that as a RP is up to and id take no offence if he said no.

In respect to initial thread question that New Brittonia proposed in my view no RL human rights laws do not have any basis on what happens in the NS world. After all if the NS Nations played it strictly by the book in regards to Human Rights law it would be pretty boring lol. The best thing you can do is do an RP where you attempt to write such an NS Human Rights Law that’s what Vetaka did in relation to the Theeb Accords the NS Player base may not like the Accords but hell that provides another great chance for you to RP your nation providing suitable IC Reasoning why you don’t like the Accords. The Phoenix Militia again RP'd forming NEATO which is either accepted or rejected. Either way that’s the fun of RP on Nationstates.

In response to Omigodtheykilledkenny comments I feel thats rather well "pathetic" again if everybody across the board was in NSUN and they all complied with the NSUN Charter the place would be at peace and damn right boring. To then go on and say those that are in the NSUN are godmodding because they break the Charter is well again "pathetic". Personally I call it "Great RP".

Vetaka

I have to say that I agree with the imaginatively-named Omigod; if your nation is in the United Nations then you should really roleplay it as such, just as you would roleplay your nation's population, economy and its various rights. Of course, I'm not going to go ignoring nations that do not, as at the end of the day it comes down to a matter of choice, but it would seem to offer a lot of roleplay opportunities, and at the very least those nations which do choose to recognise the UN in their roleplays should not be sneered at by those who don't - unless they're trying to force it on people, of course.

I have to say that I agree with the imaginatively-named Omigod; if your nation is in the United Nations then you should really roleplay it as such, just as you would roleplay your nation's population, economy and its various rights.

I don't know why you would. Literally every other feature of gameplay is not connected to RP; for example, due to colonization and such, I have a much bigger population IC than my nation page states. Also, obviously, my government DOES spend money on healthcare, despite the fact that the way I've answered my issues seems to determine that it doesn't.

Put it this way. This forum is IC freeform roleplaying, and so you can do what you want that doesn't violate the rules. Now, if someone were to tell me, "Well, you're in the UN. So you can roleplay your nation with perfect freedom just like everyone else...except follow these rules religiously or you'll be kicked out!" I would reply that such a statement clearly violates the spirit of the roleplaying here. Moreover, I can't figure out why NOT RPing as the UN tells a delegate to would be godmodding; godmodding is, in its most basic form, enhancing oneself past the point of reason. RPing differently than the UN tells you is not an enhancement.

Moreover, I can't figure out why NOT RPing as the UN tells a delegate to would be godmodding; godmodding is, in its most basic form, enhancing oneself past the point of reason.

Such as the ability to "have a much bigger population IC than my nation page states"? ;)

I never used the word godmodding, so don't put words into my mouth.

RPing differently than the UN tells you is not an enhancement.

Some of us would argue with that one with some determination...

I'm not. I do believe that in the very post I quoted (provided you even read it), it says, "such persons may do what they wish in their own roleplay." But there is a large number of roleplayers who consider it Godmoding to ignore NS stats .

There are ?

A lot of the NS stats are completely unreasonable, especially the "Your Nation is Nth in the Region and Y in the World in X" stats.

And Questers is not in the UN I think.

Personally I think a nation telling the UN where it can shove its resolutions is a far more realistic approach than the same nation willingly surrendering its sovereignty. Further, I remember reading an RP attempt where a nation held a press conference where the nation's press secretary announced said nation would not be implementing the newest resolution and some mod "RPed" (if you call a one-liner an RP) a Compliance Ministry official saying that the law had already been implemented; that was the most blatant example of godmodding I've ever seen and after reading that thread I was seeing red.

Quite frankly I'd love to see somebody try that on AMF (who's in the UN and whose only purpose is to mock the UN with its membership.) The chances of any Compliance Ministry personnel not earning a one way trip to the Halls are between zilch and nil. On the flipside, I'd say the chances of the same CM personnel being evac'd with a godly handwave are proportionately high (any gameplay mod care to prove me wrong?)


Oh, and to answer the question that was originally the point of this thread, it depends. Good treatment of prisoners tends to be generally respected, while the chemical warfare bans aren't.

Such as the ability to "have a much bigger population IC than my nation page states"? ;)

I never used the word godmodding, so don't put words into my mouth.



Some of us would argue with that one with some determination...

About the godmodding word use, don't worry. That particular part was addressed to Omigod.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to RP a bigger population. If you'll take a glance at my sig, you'll notice that during my time here, I colonized part of New Borneria, scooped up an extra 2 billion or so subjects when I partitioned Freudotopia with GE, and got a slice of the conquered pie that is Cazelia when TWSP started throwing out protectorates to anyone around. All of these have been come by legitimately in IC roleplay, and I intend to keep them. If Kraven wants to ICly include the population of his slave states in his nation, that's fine. If Questers wants to ICly include the population of his colonies in his nation, that's fine.

And finally, it might be an enhancement to RP without the UN (freedom of RP, which is what I've been stressing this whole time), I'll give you that, but it's hardly unreasonable. It's not the bombers that appear right above your capital, it's not the infallible missile defense system, it's not the commanders who always seem to know where the enemy "might" be after the other guy makes an SIC post, or any other traditional godmods. It's just the freedom to RP.

Yes. I am also quite adept at ping-ponging. What's your point?

I think it's pretty well-established (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=490188) that the United Nations is both a Gameplay and roleplay device. I don't write the forum stickies; I just quote them.

I'm not. I do believe that in the very post I quoted (provided you even read it), it says, "such persons may do what they wish in their own roleplay." But there is a large number of roleplayers who consider it Godmoding to ignore NS stats as if they have no effect on their nations, including the effects UN resolutions. If you don't like these effects, you can vote against resolutions you dislike, you can exploit loopholes, or you can resign. No one's "dictating" that you do anything.

Really now. Well established by whom? By Hotrodia? Well I am here to dispute this 'establishment'. Since November 2003, there have been perhaps the sum of 20 days were I have not logged onto the nationstates forums. While I can't say the same for AMF here, he is one of the most respected roleplayers on our forum. Certainly more so than Hotrodia, who I'm not even sure is an IIer, yet apparently he understands how our forum works. Yes, he's a moderator, yes, he knows what he's talking about in gameplay. That is his area, and all well and good, I am not going to challenge what happens in gameplay.. This is not gameplay. He is wrong. It is not an established fact at all that a nation is godmoding if it is in the UN but breaks UN laws. That is the biggest heap of bullshit I have ever heard.

Unless I can see clear and solid evidence that its the case, then I, as do many of my friends in this forum, refuse to believe or accept that the UN is a universal roleplay device. There are a large number of roleplayers? Really? Who are they? I am in the UN because I am running for delegacy of our roleplay region because we have no founder. In my nation I have all sorts of archaic laws; no real voting rights for females, apartheid, etc. Yet I do not even recognise the fact that there is an NSUN, nevermind that it would have any sort of power over me. In fact I don't recognise the UN rankings at all.

Do you want to say I violate RP etiquette? Go ahead. Want to ignore me for being a bad rper? Go ahead. In four years I have only been ignored once. I think thats a testament to the fact that I don't break RP etiquette.

And yes, you are dictating things to me. You say I must roleplay my country in X manner by subscribing to a gameplay institution. The two are not intertwined, they never have been, and they never will be. End of.

Then lets hope AMF invades you.

Highly doubtful...but if such an event were to occur...I have a "Jericho" plan...where I would effectively glass myself...killing everything within my borders and making the land completely unusable...death would come to every citizen (and slave/invader) before bondage or becoming subjects to another kingdom.

And whoever said the NSUN has any power at all...apparently you live in a cave...nations in real life don't even abide by the real UN's laws..and little to nothing is done to stop them...why would it be any different here on NS...if anything the NSUN focuses more on whether or not you can have sex in your house without the government spying on you more than they deal with nations violating human rights.

NSUN has absolutely no bearing rp wise for nations who choose not to abide by its resolutions...NSUN= a very sad joke

lol I was bored...figured id rant a bit

Wow, this thread seems to be taking on a life of its own now.

Professor! I LIVES!

And who is HotRodia to make such judgements as to what is and isn't godmodding? Last time I checked, the moderators do not handle godmodding, as it is up to the community to accept or ignore what another player does.

Really now. Well established by whom? By Hotrodia? Well I am here to dispute this 'establishment'. Since November 2003, there have been perhaps the sum of 20 days were I have not logged onto the nationstates forums. While I can't say the same for AMF here, he is one of the most respected roleplayers on our forum. Certainly more so than Hotrodia, who I'm not even sure is an IIer, yet apparently he understands how our forum works. Yes, he's a moderator, yes, he knows what he's talking about in gameplay. That is his area, and all well and good, I am not going to challenge what happens in gameplay.. This is not gameplay. He is wrong. It is not an established fact at all that a nation is godmoding if it is in the UN but breaks UN laws. That is the biggest heap of bullshit I have ever heard.

Reading is good. Understanding is better.

In case y'all don't recall:

Some nations choose to roleplay complete non-compliance with NSUN legislation, which means that they choose to roleplay as if the NSUN has no affect on them. While such persons may do what they wish in their own roleplay, the practice of ignoring NSUN legislation in roleplay is generally considered extremely bad form and often called godmoding.

A few points to consider...

1.) Kenny ain't a Mod, and he ain't me. So accepting his interpretation of my statements at face value may be a poor choice.

2. I wrote that series of stickies for the UN forum, not for the II forum.

3. In it, I make note of what was then and perhaps still is the common opinion among many UN forum-goers, that non-compliance is godmoding. It's a helpful notice to folks learning about the UN and wanting to be active in it that the UN forum community tends to follow a certain pattern of thinking on the issue.

Anything else y'all are in need of clarification on?

PS. -- Yep, the OOC fact is that the UN exists in both gameplay and roleplay contexts. Naturally, your nation does not need to recognize that particular OOC fact if you would prefer it that way, any more than your nation needs to recognize the OOC fact that it is ultimately words and images on a screen or the OOC fact that your nation's stats don't fit your roleplayed description of it.

I might add that my interpretation was, in fact, misinterpreted, so rather than confuse things further I thought it wise to, er, leave this topic alone.

There are no international laws in NS, seeing as there are no truly international forums or diplomatic bodies (such as the League of Nations and United Nations which exist or have existed in the real world) to create, regulate, and enforce such laws. That said, a nation that upholds fundamental human rights (there is no universal definition, but they usually include freedom of speech, of press, of assembly, of enterprise, and of franchise) can and often do attempt to force these rights (ignoring the right of sovereignty, ironically) on nations and parties whom they consider to be violators and enemies of such rights.

The difference between such action in NationStates and the real world is that parties who crusade against other states based on their opposing definition of human rights don't have the widespread support of the international community (which, in NS, is more like a large number of gated and well armed suburban neighborhoods than a truly interconnected global community) as they would if a inclusive pro-human rights international organization existed in the RPing world. It is each nation's own decision on how to approach the issue of human rights, both on the domestic and international arena.