NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: The next post is reserved for Derscon, please wait until he has posted

CAFR HQ, Rosdivan

The command center of the Commonwealth Air Force of Rosdivan hummed quietly with activity. Large screens displayed collated radar data, showing the air traffic over the Rosdivani island chain and its air identification zone. It was a rather messy display, that thankfully, could be cleared up quite quickly by the individual operators so that they could more clearly see what was going on.

The chatter of the SAGE operators, who were the terrestrial part of the ground controlled intercept network and remote SAM operators, was rather subdued at the current moment. Fewer aircraft than normal were in the air at the moment, though that would soon be changing.

Above the foremost map, and at the desk of every operator, a clock silently counted time down, its red digits marking down the time to both an end and a beginning.

00:00

A bell began clanging, ringing for ten seconds to make sure all were aware that the timer had finished its dread count. The quiet hum disappeared, replaced instead by the busy chatter of the operators, directing readied fighters on their courses. The chatter was not as bad as it might have been however. This was a fairly simple job, with the operators main job being airspace deconfliction. A midair collision would be quite unfortunate, especially with as easy a mission as this.

Any old fighter base, Rosdivan

F-133A Shrike fighters accelerated down the runway, spaced only fifteen seconds apart. There wasn't any operational need to conduct minimum interval takeoffs, but why not take the opportunity for training while it was available? Going supersonic soon after takeoff, they began their high altitude climbs. Each of the thousands of fighters carried but a single missile. That one missile had a hapless target: One of the satellites belonging to the Corporate Alliance.

Space

Thousands of missiles floated in space, serenely content in their orbits. They had been launched, some of them a number of years before, chirped that they had been successfully deployed, and then simply waited. Now, Rosdivani satellites began broadcasting data with the codes necessary for their activation. They paused, evaluated the codes and coordinates, and chirped back.

From computerese, it translated roughly as "Oh Joy! Oh Rapture!"

Small puffs jetted off, turning the missiles in their appropriate directions, before their main rocket motor fired and they headed to their rendezvous with a Corporate satellite.

Big blue sea

F14F Maahes fighters shot off the catapults before beginning the same climbs as their Air Force brethren. For days the fleets had engaged in deception and hiding from the satellites: Now they would simply shoot them down.

Hundreds of miles away, a pair of long ranged air to air AIM-152 missiles were launched at a patrolling Corporate Alliance maritime reconnaissance aircraft. No means of recon would be permitted to live: Only land-based radars would be spared, and that only temporarily.

CAFR HQ, Rosdivan

General Novak listened to the chatter while watching the board confirming the list of targets destroyed. The number was growing impressively large.

"Are the Brilliant Pebbles in place?" he asked his aide, the question more rhetorical than searching.

"Yes sir, a portion of the Brilliant Pebbles have been assigned to intercepting any attempts to place replacement satellites in orbit," came the ready answer.

"Good, very good. Call the Dersconi, I want to know how the operation has gone on their side."

"Right away sir"

A blind enemy is a dead enemy. What they can't see, they can't hit, he mused to himself silently. The planners were wrong though. This isn't like sticking a needle in their eye. We're gouging out their eyes before following up with brass knuckles

National Military Command Centre
Unknown location
23:39

"Sir! Sterngruppe A will be in position in twenty minutes!" The cape danced behind him as he spun around.

"And SKYLINE? Status?"

"Sir, SKYLINE is in full operation." The cape swirled again as Lord General Kruchina Drakonov, Overseer of the National Military Command Centre, walked across the catwalk in the massive chamber, the holodisplay of Earth, the Dersconi satellites (including Sterngruppe A, which was approaching the area near CA satellites), and the location of the CA space assets, under him, the targets lit up in red, the strikers, green.

"Officer on Deck!" the Lord General shouted. "Initiate countdown for Fall Ödipus!"

"Aye sir!" the Project Commander, Jötunn Vladimir Steinweiss, placed his key card in the console, and the Lord General placed his in his, and turned at the same time. On one of the massive screens, a clock appeared, counting down the time until the strike.

Lights on the massive Unit Wall were flashing on as carrier air wings took off from the Grossflotte under the command of Imperial Admiral Yuri Zimmerov, deployed approximately a month ago due to a rising conflict with Gens Romae. They were beginning to head back home due to their capitulation when Tsar Xavier ordered their deployment upon increasing Greater Prussian interest in the NPE/CA war. Their goal? To destroy the recon abilities of the CA, most of the semi-stealth fighters carrying long range ATA missiles.

General Drakonov looked over at the electronic display of the Derscon SDI System (the core of the GPSDI), watching as the lights flickered from red to yellow to green, activating the defence systems -- for what, only a few top commanders knew.

Turning around, he looked at the clock. One minute left. Sterngruppe A had locked themselves into position at that time, just as the carrier wings began finding the CA recon craft.

Then, the alarms began sounding.

00:10
00:09
00:08
00:07
00:06
00:05

The Lord General smiled as the timer finished.

00:03
00:02
00:01
00:00

Once the timer hit zero, Sterngruppe A --- a collection of satellites focused around an Orbital Defence Grid, a large military space station -- unleashed hundreds of anti-satellite STS missiles towards all of the known CA space assets in the area.

The Lord General was satisfied at the massive barrage of sheer firepower, satisfied that it was a large enough brooch to rip out the eyes of the CA.

And if not, there was plenty more where that came from.

Official Message from the United States of Allanea

We would like to aid our allies and friends. Please consult as to how this would be best done. Note we are already fighting Kraven.


* * *

Even as this message was sent, 500 ASAT missiles were launched from the strategic fortresses in mainland Allanea. There was little to say about these, except they, too, targeted CA resources.

OOC:

Sorry for the unbearably shitting post. Basically a way for me to throw my hat in.

The Gernish Special Forces Divisions (HALO, helicopter, and amphibious) were preparing for orders from Dersconi headquarters when Praetor (Formerly Field Marshall) Hernandez entered the room to brief them.

"Men, I just arrived back in our national this morning after the Alignment Talks with Derscon. We have become a sattelite state of their empire, and this is our time to prove our loyalty. The Chancellor will... er... not being leading any further military conflict, or any conflict of any sort for that matter. This is our time to show the world what hard training, national pride, and devotion to cause can do to more developed nations. Break off into your individual units and wait for me to give you the GO signal. Dersconi HQ should be in contact with us as soon as their missle reports from the attack on CA resources come back to them. Good luck and Godspeed, Gentlemen."

OOC:

Question:

Did the attack happen or not?

What was the impact?

It was simply too large an attack for NOTHING to have happened. A few sats would have been killed by debris alone! :eek:

We sorta need a ruling on this because it does make a very big difference.

If CA Sats aren't able to see what is going on, that uncertainly alone will make a huge impact on what the players are doing on both sides.

OOC:

Question:

Did the attack happen or not?

As far as I'm concerned, yes, as there is no legitimate reason as to why it wouldn't have.

What was the impact?

It was simply too large an attack for NOTHING to have happened.

Agreed. However, the CA has continuously failed to respond.

As far as I'm concerned, yes, as there is no legitimate reason as to why it wouldn't have.



Agreed. However, the CA has continuously failed to respond.

OOC: I just want to make this clear - we are not ignoring the attack on plausibility issues. We are simply trying to figure out how our defenses and counter-attacks would have affected your assets, as well as the extent of the damage to our own space-born assets. We are not godmodders.

OOC: I just want to make this clear - we are not ignoring the attack on plausibility issues. We are simply trying to figure out how our defences and counter-attacks would have affected your assets, as well as the extent of the damage to our own space-born assets. We are not godmodders.

OOC: Ah, okay; my apologies, then. If you made this clear in the thread, my apologies again, but I never saw any reason as to why there was no response, so I assumed the worst.

OOC: Ah, okay; my apologies, then. If you made this clear in the thread, my apologies again, but I never saw any reason as to why there was no response, so I assumed the worst.

OOC: Quite understandable, really. There seems to have been a real breakdown in communications at this point.

OOC: Quite understandable, really. There seems to have been a real breakdown in communications at this point.

OOC: Irony at its best. We ICly blast your weapons and comm satellites and you OOCly have no idea what the fuck is going on. :D

'Oh joy oh joy', thought Praetor Hernandez. 'Still no orders from the Dersconi. Probably a communications glitch of some type.'

Well at least all the weapons were nice and clean and the boots shiny while the anxious men awaited the coming action.

OOC: Irony at its best. We ICly blast your weapons and comm satellites and you OOCly have no idea what the fuck is going on. :D

OOC: Yeah, it's ironic. Basically, before we work out just what happens, we need to figure out how effective our counter-attack is, and then how effective our counter-measures are as well. If you've got any idea of how many of your satelites we got in the exchange, that'd help us figure everything out.

OOC: Yeah, it's ironic. Basically, before we work out just what happens, we need to figure out how effective our counter-attack is, and then how effective our counter-measures are as well. If you've got any idea of how many of your satelites we got in the exchange, that'd help us figure everything out.

OOC: Well, I was vague on the number of satellites and missiles for a reason -- I don't OOCly know what you have all in the air. Rest assured, though, the combined efforts of Rosdivan and I would be to launch enough fun boomy things to hit about 125% of targeted CA space assets (the extra 25% being for misses/evasion/etc). What you take down all depends on how much you have left. :p

SIC

PRIORITY: RTFN
RATE: DIVIMYS
SUBJ: DEPLOYMENT ORDERS

PRAETOR HERNANDEZ:
DEPLOY SPECIAL FORCES UNITS TO SOPHIA CITADEL FOR
TRANSPORT.
MOVE ASAP.
::NMCC

OOC: Well, I was vague on the number of satellites and missiles for a reason -- I don't OOCly know what you have all in the air. Rest assured, though, the combined efforts of Rosdivan and I would be to launch enough fun boomy things to hit about 125% of targeted CA space assets (the extra 25% being for misses/evasion/etc). What you take down all depends on how much you have left. :p

OOC: We would almost certainly have gotten off a counter-attack before your missiles hit due to time delay from the surface launches.

OOC: We would almost certainly have gotten off a counter-attack before your missiles hit due to time delay from the surface launches.


Allanea's five hundred, which were not coordinated with the rest and came in after, were the only surface launches. All the rest were either launched from space or from aircraft. Even a surface launch would only take a few minutes though to hit something in LEO.

OOC: Okay, this is somewhat irritating.

Why don't we say you lost 95% of your assets, and we lost...say, 20%? Even 20 seems generous, really, considering with such an assault, you'd probably be able to do jack shit, but I'm willing to take a larger hit just to actually start doing stuff.

OOC: Okay, so all of your stuff launched from orbit. Fine. Lets even say you took the time to move your missile platforms in really close to our satelites, which would have given us warning. Also fine - we'll forget the idea of the warning it would have given us (which, since we're all a bunch of paranoids, would almost certainly lead to a massive preemptive strike). So you launch from close in - it takes a fraction of a second for our orbital assets computer's to realize that they are being attacked. It then takes them another fraction of a second to decide on a retaliation and deploy that retaliation. In less than a second, all of our orbital assets would deploy, since they're fully automated. (Or at least the Undershi stuff is, except for the stuff on the Undershi space station, but that stuff isn't actually that important.)

So, our counter-measures fully deploy, and we get off all of our launches - the result is MAD for our orbital assets - we will indeed probably lose 98% to 100% of our stuff in orbit - but, so will you. Not 20%. Not even 50%. To be generous, we could say that you came out on the better side of the exchange, but even that would, in a best-case scenario for you, result in you losing something like 85-90% of your satelites etc..

Now you see the fundamental problem - our stuff is all automated, so it would get off its full counter-attack is our arguement. Yours is that this would function like Pearl Harbor in WWII, where the American battleships were taken by suprise and destroyed. Not so - in that situation, America was not at war - the CA is at war. The American battleships had all of their guns (even AA) unloaded when the attack began. Our satelites did not - they would be on a much higher than normal level of alert because of the war. The Americans had no warning. Not the case for our assets - your launches would give them several seconds of warning, in which time they could act. Because the American ships were crewed and comanded by people, with slow reaction times. Our satelites were controlled by computers, which even under MT settings need only seconds to act.

Well, that's my arguement. You have your own arguement. I can't do much more than suggest at this point that we seek someone who is not involved in this war and who has a good understanding of the technology involved to act as a neutral judge as to what casualties we would each have taken.

OOC: Mm, tsk tsk. I disagree. The ONLY way I could possibly say anywhere above 80 is if you have the modifier of Those Satellites Involved In the Attack. I used a SMALL FRACTION of my orbital assets in the assault (I have lots, and really, and even then, the fraction I use is enough), and the ones I used have their own automated defences.

For the sake of moving on, if you add the modifier of "those satellites involved in the attack," I'll take a 85-95% hit.

Oh, and one more thing: I doubt the CA is much more paranoid than Derscon and Greater Prussia, and we have substantial IC reason to be paranoid, too. So that defence isn't gonna work :p

OOC I have been requested by Rosidivan to speak upon this matter in an advisory capacity so I will do so.

My first problem is the second response time for an SDI network from Undershi. This is in MT impossible. Not "maybe" I mean full stop impossible. No you cant do it and I am going to explain why. You will be effectivly utterly to respond salvo to salvo with a TOT ASAT barrage all engaged in the first second to match a pre set offensive ASAT launch. The main problem you have doing this is the speed of light. Oribtal space is big. Not translunar space big but still blastedly horridly big. It takes you up to a 3/4 seconds to even SEE the target move if its in a high orbit, it takes that long again to talk to the furthest sections of YOUR network or for them to contact the low earth constellations if you have them. The enemy offensive launch on the other hand can easily be timed to create a rather pretty TOT barrage that easily overwhelms your capacity. Lastly it takes HOURS for engagements to unfold to engulf it all with chemical driven rockets as the best you can do. He who fires first wins a HUGE advantage in MT orbital warfare as his first strike is coherent and can saturate your defences via TOT.

Missile launcher platforms in reasonable engagement orbits should not in any way need to "move" there orbital vector to engage and indeed such platforms should be as radar stealthed as possible. Haveing such platforms move would defeat the point of having powered missiles. Reorient yes, but again this would still not change much of there perceivable radar signature, there visible and IR albedo on the other hand ALSO probably would not change as the largest and hardest things to conceal on long term non nuclear platforms self orient constantly for maximum cooling/ power generation. So no you probably do not know that sucker has fired till the missile separation is detected by radar. You now have at most in orbit to orbit warfare call it 2 hours for reasonably capable space to space missiles. Further such missiles are a bugger to engage given that they are powered and can effectively dodge basic KE munitions unless there dumb as stumps. Also please recall that a FAST ASAT is not recognisably a GOOD ASAT when were dealing with space to space combat. An increase in speed lowers the missiles ability to change vector and ironicly makes it easier to intercept (the shorter engagement window is nice but honestly not worth it in my opinion) and harder for it to hit target as that target can dodge.

Space is blastedly ungodly large. I really cannot repeat this enough. Getting a majority of enemy targets with anything other than a truly mammoth orbital cascade (which incidentally if any of you trigger I and others would merrily glass your capacity to ever launch so much as a bottle rocket for given our orbital investments) is intensely unlikely no matter the investment or capacity of the SDI network until you reach acceptably capable coherent energy weapons.

Oh one final little entry

Sattalites by there nature do not unless specifically designed to manoeuvre very well. Manovering is there only real method of escaping destruction. Whipple shields are nice but not all that useful against large bore fragmentary ball or cable shot from an ASAT warhead.

OOC: ZM, I understood what you're saying. I think you didn't understand what I said, though. My satelites aren't waiting for orders from the ground - they were targeted, so their computers found what shot at them, then shot back, targeting those satelites and the others belonging to those nations. Relaistically, in the real world, an attack like this would lead to at least a moderate nuclear exchange, followed by either extinction or one side showing some sense and backing down.

It's increadibly easy to kill a satelite, that's something we've all mentioned and agreed on. It is also, however, increadibly hard to kill a satelite before it has launched its (fully automated) weapons package. Plus, we'd deploy ASATs from the surface, both conventional and nuclear tipped, which would kill whatever remains. (Much like your own surface-based ASATs would do.)

You've mentioned that such an event would lead to glassing - well, glassing is mutual, and the CA will not be threatened into allowing another alliance to seize an advantage.

So, we both knock out everything the other has in orbit, and then either you launch your WMDs and we launch ours and we all die and no one has fun... or you don't, and the fighting goes on without satelites. Your choice.

[SIZE="1"]OOC: ZM, I understood what you're saying. I think you didn't understand what I said, though. My satelites aren't waiting for orders from the ground - they were targeted, so their computers found what shot at them, then shot back, targeting those satelites and the others belonging to those nations.

All of your satellites mount large space tracking radars on them with extremely large data banks to keep track of every single satellite on them? I'm impressed. I'm also curious, how do they know that they're being shot at until impact (at which point they are destroyed), especially with those being shot at from aerial launched ASATs?

The idea of a completely computer controlled response system is also a bad one. Experience has shown that having a man in the loop is a very, very good idea.


Relaistically, in the real world, an attack like this would lead to at least a moderate nuclear exchange, followed by either extinction or one side showing some sense and backing down.

Nonsense. A real world attack would only end up as a nuclear exchange if it was believed that the attacks were a prelude to a nuclear first strike. Since you almost certainly have a second strike capability (though whether it'd get through our ABMs is another question), we have left ground based early warning radar stations intact, and the attack was led by Rosdivan, which does not possess any nuclear weapons and is quite public about that, not to mention that your leaders are highly unlikely to desire to start a conflict that will only end with your own destruction. By comparison, they have the potential to survive against a GPE assault and perhaps negotiate a surrender with fairly lenient terms. Heck, if you want, we'll even leave any BMEWS satellites untouched, so that there's absolutely no justification whatsoever for going nuclear.

So let's look at the outcomes:
Destruction vs occupation at the very worst, war reparations and loss of territory more likely. Real tough choice for those leaders to make.


It's increadibly easy to kill a satelite, that's something we've all mentioned and agreed on. It is also, however, increadibly hard to kill a satelite before it has launched its (fully automated) weapons package.

See the aforementioned problems with automation.


Plus, we'd deploy ASATs from the surface, both conventional and nuclear tipped, which would kill whatever remains. (Much like your own surface-based ASATs would do.)

And we'll take losses from them in LEO, minus any that might be intercepted by Brilliant Pebbles.


You've mentioned that such an event would lead to glassing - well, glassing is mutual, and the CA will not be threatened into allowing another alliance to seize an advantage.

Your ability to glass us may be somewhat doubtful. You'll be trying to glass the entire GPE and NPE and operating against their combined ABM systems. I'd be surprised if we had a combined Brilliant Pebbles system numbering under a million. That's in addition to any ground based ABM systems of course. Now, would we hurt? Yes. But you would end up hurting a lot more.

As for being threatened into allowing another alliance to seize an advantage, you're already at a disadvantage simply facing the GPE, not to mention both GPE and NPE.

OOC: Undershi, the Doc was kind enough to take his time to come as a neutral party and comment. Stop being so confrontational with him, and believe me, the CA would not hold its own.

As for everything else, What Ros said. :D

OOC: Uh Derscon, the Concordant has been dead for some time apparently. Just givin' you a heads up.

OOC: Uh Derscon, the Concordant has been dead for some time apparently. Just givin' you a heads up.

OOC: What Concordat? I see no Concordat. <.< >.>

OOC: Okay, let's say you get 100% of the Undershi satelites, and we get (with our surface based missiles too) about 75 to 80 percent of your stuff in orbit. Seems fair?

Also, as far as tech is concerned: first of all, I was speaking from a PMT perspective. Apparently, you were going from an MT perspective, so that explains some of our differences of opinion.

Lastly, if I was anything less than civil, I appologize - IC warfare should never lead to OOC bad feelings.

OOC: Just to note, for a second, my nation is PMT, sometimes FT, but I never do pure MT.

[SIZE="1"]OOC: Okay, let's say you get 100% of the Undershi satelites, and we get (with our surface based missiles too) about 75 to 80 percent of your stuff in orbit. Seems fair?

How about 50-60% of stuff in LEO, 5-10% in MEO, and effectively none in GEO? Surface based missiles will take too long and be too vulnerable to ASATs and Brilliant Pebbles to do all that to MEO/GEO, plus a lot of satellites won't be orbiting over you. Plus we're looking for the entirety of active CA satellites, not just yours :P


Also, as far as tech is concerned: first of all, I was speaking from a PMT perspective. Apparently, you were going from an MT perspective, so that explains some of our differences of opinion.

Nothing to do with tech difference. Man in the loop is, as I said, an extremely good idea, and outfitting your sats for space watching is going to be very hard to do.


Lastly, if I was anything less than civil, I appologize - IC warfare should never lead to OOC bad feelings.

Never detected any uncivilty.

OOC: Alright, glad to hear that there are no bad feelings. As for automated satelites, my idea was that when war was declared, the safety was taken off so that satelites would respond to attacks on their own, but other than that they're automated. Yes that's inneficient and runs the risk of having an Undershi satelite shoot down a neutral, but, well, my reasoning takes in the fact that the Undershi are a bunch of paranoids and obsessives who build everything under the assumption that the entire world is out to get them.

OOC: Well, I still haven't done as much research as I would have liked, but the issue is becoming increasingly moot. Here's a more moderate suggestion: you get 85 to 90 percent of my satelites, and I get off a counter-attack that kills a smattering of your satelites and makes it harder to kill other CA satelites - I'm not naming a percentage, and will basically accept anything reasonable. My country is going to be invaded by an overwhelming enemy fairly soon, so I'd like to get this issue out of the way before that starts.

Sounds fine to me

Sounds fine to me

OOC: All right. From now on, I'll begin incorporating missing sats etc. into my RPs.

OOC: Well THAT was thrilling, and interesting to read/study seeing as this is my first war (yes, I'm new to this whole deal). Now that we got all the technical stuff figured out, however, I would be wholeheartedly excited to get on with the war. Let's play!