NationStates Jolt Archive

All the OOC stuff for this war goes here.

Kampfers, your budget is $5,189,361,906,456.00, not 10+.

All the OOC stuff for this war goes here.

Kampfers, your budget is $5,189,361,906,456.00, not 10+.

sigh.

I have asked many people if it is OK to do this, and they all reply yes.

Take the GDP from NSDossier.

Go to this website and insert it in. http://www.calculator.com/pantaserv/makecalc?

Multiply by % spent on defense.

=

Defense budget.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/main.aspx

This one disagrees.

Also, how much do those missiles each cost to produce?

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/main.aspx

This one disagrees.

Also, how much do those missiles each cost to produce?

Let me check. Give me a few minutes, I have to find the file for the SS-X-38 on my comp, it hasn't been posted online yet.

1 Soviet Coin = $1.2119

Nice, I hadnt noticed my economy was that good.

OOC: Mal, get out of this thread. It is closed and you were not invited. I could care less what you say. BC is the head of your alliance and can comment if he wants. But you should leave. Please.

Yo Kampfers, Why would I want to get out of that thread? The comment was OOC. I didn't notice this until I posted. Now that we have this thread I can comment on your complaint. Why can't I comment? Is it because you hate me? Not a good reason to not allow a comment, I would think.

Yo Kampfers, Why would I want to get out of that thread? The comment was OOC. I didn't notice this until I posted. Now that we have this thread I can comment on your complaint. Why can't I comment? Is it because you hate me? Not a good reason to not allow a comment, I would think.

Because it was a closed thread and you realy didn't have a reason to be there.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/main.aspx

This one disagrees.

Also, how much do those missiles each cost to produce?

A Fenix missile costs $3,500,000 to produce. A SS-X-38 costs, well, Questers didn't tell me how much it costs, and he isn't on.

Also, I happen to have an account at the DMG International Bank worth some 12.597 Trillion USD for my spending leisure. (That's without interest too!)

DT sucks! My defense budget is 2 trillion. My police force has twice as much money as my military. Y'all better watch out, i'm spending my 4 trillion on a RoboCop.

Oh, and Kampfers, you said back in the thread where BC called you out that you've been stockpiling those missles. Missles aren't free to stockpile, the more you stockpile, the more expensive it becomes to maintain them. So, in reality, after amassing that many missles you could end up wasting billions every NS year to maintain them, which would cut even more out of your budget.

I feel like I've somewhat taken a backseat supporting role in this war...

C'mon, Let me take on Binaria or GTR, I have debts to settle with either of those two!

Oh, and Kampfers, you said back in the thread where BC called you out that you've been stockpiling those missles. Missles aren't free to stockpile, the more you stockpile, the more expensive it becomes to maintain them. So, in reality, after amassing that many missles you could end up wasting billions every NS year to maintain them, which would cut even more out of your budget.

I fully understand this. However, I have been involved in two wars back to back, and have been using them in them. This is just the first time I've used them in large numbers. I am an archipelago. I invest a lot of money in making sure that people can't land forces, and I spend less money on killing them once they get there. Land forces, and the fighting will be tough, as the soldiers will be fighting for their families, but there isnt going to be a lot of machine gun nests set up around town.

Essentially, my government is willing to pay any cost to keep them in power. This is a very high cost at the time, but in peacetime it will be scaled back immensely. Like I said, I was preparing for a bloodbath with Mer des Ennuis. That didn't work out, but I ended up having to shift all my assets to fight the CA almost immedeately.

EDIT: At least I don't have a seawall! :P

EDIT: At least I don't have a seawall! :P

I didn't see the problem with that to be honest. Gens fleet was just a few subs and his air force just had helicopters. He cut funding from the navy and air force to bulid the wall...

I didn't see the problem with that to be honest. Gens fleet was just a few subs and his air force just had helicopters. He cut funding from the navy and air force to bulid the wall...

I was talking about Blackhelm, and it was a joke. Also, I take exception to one thing that Undershi said.

massive swarms of low-quality missiles fell from the sky

I wouldn't say these are Kahns, but they aren't exactly low quality either.

I figured I'd give my opinion, despite not really being a part of this war (though I am allied to Undershi and loosely to BC). Most of the more experienced NSer do not pay attention to the various calculators. They're terribly inaccurate and therefore useless. As long as someone doesn't claim to be running with 50 billion trillion dollars, and keep things realistic (to NS, anyways), it should all be fine.

A note to Undershi, by the way; keeping yourself in the boundaries of RL (that doesn't include tech, of course <.<) is not a good decision to make on NS. You'll be assraped pretty quickly if you run around that way. :|

Zukariaa;12940363']A note to Undershi, by the way; keeping yourself in the boundaries of RL (that doesn't include tech, of course <.<) is not a good decision to make on NS. You'll be assraped pretty quickly if you run around that way. :|

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but no matter what way I think of it doing anything besides staying in the boundries of RL (or reality) is a godmod and very bad way to rp.

All the OOC stuff for this war goes here.

Kampfers, your budget is $5,189,361,906,456.00, not 10+.

Actually it would be no less than $5,189,361,906,456.00 Kampferian Marks x exchange rate = $7,607,604,554,864.5 NSD

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but no matter what way I think of it doing anything besides staying in the boundries of RL (or reality) is a godmod and very bad way to rp.

I mean in numbers. Going outside of MT tech is the godmod (if you're an MT nation anyhow), but confining yourself to RL numbers as Undershi seems to be doing is a surefire way to be beaten down on NS. NS nation sizes, ideologies, etc lead to nations with much more massive and high quality militaries. He seemed to think that he should be confined to, say, 50 carriers, which is absurd for an NS nation.

New Manth...has TG's I need replying 2...

BC, check your TG's... erm, again.

I should really say something to affirm the point of this post, y'know stop it from seeming like spam chatter...

ummmm, oh! Is this whole conflict just limited to the CA/NPE? No other alliances at all involved?

ooc: Don't see how you're slipping all these ships to Barokin..considering to get there you have to go by wandy/TPF and Shakal...where landbased radar's could pick you up en route...but its w/e I guess

To answer his question.

1) I went up from where the neutral claims are. I am too lazy to use paint to show you, but you get the picture.

2) We have Barokin, so all the radars over there are on our side, basically...

BC, check your TG's... erm, again.

I should really say something to affirm the point of this post, y'know stop it from seeming like spam chatter...

ummmm, oh! Is this whole conflict just limited to the CA/NPE? No other alliances at all involved?

No, other alliances can and will get involved. But ADAN is unlikely to help you, fyi.

No, other alliances can and will get involved. But ADAN is unlikely to help you, fyi.

I wasn't asking about alliances coming to help us.

This puts a dent somewhat in my plans |:I

Zukariaa;12940583']I mean in numbers. Going outside of MT tech is the godmod (if you're an MT nation anyhow), but confining yourself to RL numbers as Undershi seems to be doing is a surefire way to be beaten down on NS. NS nation sizes, ideologies, etc lead to nations with much more massive and high quality militaries. He seemed to think that he should be confined to, say, 50 carriers, which is absurd for an NS nation.

Funny, DT's navy only has two carriers in it, and they've been in service for probably about an NS decade now. Albeit it's time to buy new equipment, but i've never heard of someone rping with anything near 50 carriers in a fleet.

Funny, DT's navy only has two carriers in it, and they've been in service for probably about an NS decade now. Albeit it's time to buy new equipment, but i've never heard of someone rping with anything near 50 carriers in a fleet.

Oh boy I sure have lol


I've seen people deploy eighty carriers to one theater before.

Oh boy I sure have lol


I've seen people deploy eighty carriers to one theater before.

Well when I made that post I was talking about the average 6'2" white male nation, not the Arnold Schwarzenegger nation.

Funny, DT's navy only has two carriers in it, and they've been in service for probably about an NS decade now. Albeit it's time to buy new equipment, but i've never heard of someone rping with anything near 50 carriers in a fleet.

You haven't been very far in NS, apparently. The war I'm a part of, the QC-NATO/Gholgoth war, has fleets in the thousands, with Questers probably going with at least a hundred or more carriers (probably several hundred). Hell, he's invading Gholgoth with 10,000 ships. They're much larger nations, but it just puts it into perspective. My navy has around 100 carriers in all (though I suppose I've become a navally centric nation as of late).

Zukariaa;12941954']You haven't been very far in NS, apparently. The war I'm a part of, the QC-NATO/Gholgoth war, has fleets in the thousands, with Questers probably going with at least a hundred or more carriers (probably several hundred). Hell, he's invading Gholgoth with 10,000 ships. They're much larger nations, but it just puts it into perspective. My fleet has around 100 carriers in all (though I suppose I've become a navally centric nation as of late).

Look at the nation sizes. You wouldn't see a nation with 1 billion people running around with hundreds of carriers...>_< You didn't compare the nation sizes. Questers has a huge fleet, because, his nation is huge....

Look at the nation sizes. You wouldn't see a nation with 1 billion people running around with hundreds of carriers...>_< You didn't compare the nation sizes. Questers has a huge fleet, because, his nation is huge....

I said they're larger nations.. I was putting it in perspective.. <_<

Zukariaa;12941954']You haven't been very far in NS, apparently. The war I'm a part of, the QC-NATO/Gholgoth war, has fleets in the thousands, with Questers probably going with at least a hundred or more carriers (probably several hundred). Hell, he's invading Gholgoth with 10,000 ships. They're much larger nations, but it just puts it into perspective. My fleet has around 100 carriers in all (though I suppose I've become a navally centric nation as of late).

Don't be fooled, DT isn't small or naive by any stretch of the imagination. I just happen to run my nation so it is realisticly stable, whereas most nations rping in II today spread their budgets to 58% on defense and 42% on Law&Order, DT's defense budget is 13%, with Law&Order a little higher because my nation actually allocates funds to areas that support the nation. Whereas everyone's nation here is supported only by the fantasy of NS.

Your nation is listed as dead.

Don't be fooled, DT isn't small or naive by any stretch of the imagination. I just happen to run my nation so it is realisticly stable, whereas most nations rping in II today spread their budgets to 58% on defense and 42% on Law&Order, DT's defense budget is 13%, with Law&Order a little higher because my nation actually allocates funds to areas that support the nation. Whereas everyone's nation here is supported only by the fantasy of NS.

Your nation is listed as dead.

If you're taking those numbers from a calculator, I already said before that most of the larger or more experienced nations don't pay attention to them because they're very inaccurate. If you're going to ignore every nation that goes by NS standards, you are not going to get very far. :\

I've yet to ignore anybody in my whole year on NS. Even people who's nations don't exist anymore, mainly because everything I post here is in the name of good fun. I'm not docking anybody the fact that their nation is/isn't feasible, but the fact of the matter is that people always want facts to play off of, and you'll be hardpressed to run a smooth rp where players can invent their nations statistics.

I've yet to ignore anybody in my whole year on NS. Even people who's nations don't exist anymore, mainly because everything I post here is in the name of good fun. I'm not docking anybody the fact that their nation is/isn't feasible, but the fact of the matter is that people always want facts to play off of, and you'll be hardpressed to run a smooth rp where players can invent their nations statistics.

Have you seen the QC-NATO/Gholgoth war? It's running very smoothly.

Don't be fooled, DT isn't small or naive by any stretch of the imagination.

Apparently you are, since you believe you're:

A) Of a respectable size
B) You don't know enough about budgets to realize what you've just spouted off it complete tripe

I just happen to run my nation so it is realistically stable, whereas most nations RPing in II today spread their budgets to 58% on defense and 42% on Law&Order

Tell me something, did you actually go through one of NS' many calculators and actually average that, or are you just pulling those percentages out of your ass?

DT's defense budget is 13%, with Law&Order a little higher because my nation actually allocates funds to areas that support the nation.

That's your choice. The nations that field very large and very capable militaries tend to be uber-capitalist, with much of the social support net provided by the private sector and charity organizations.

FYI, using the 5% rule of thumb for keeping warships operational, it takes about $250 million per year to support a Nimitz or other carrier of similar capability. Let's assume both your nations have similar GDP/c, a similar budget based on a percentage of the GDP as the US (generous, considering your marginal economy), and a defense budget similar in percentage to the US (~25%.)

You would have a defense budget of $3.875 trillion. It would take $25 billion per year for you to support 100 Nimitz class carriers, or roughly 0.645% of your defense budget. Mind, you yourself have stated you fund a sizable support net and spend relatively little on defense, not to mention that your GDP/c is probably half the assumed level, so it would in reality take a lot more for you to support 100 Nimitz class CVNs.

Zukariaa, on the other hand, would have a defense budget of $5.3405 trillion. To support 100 Nimitz class ships, it would take 0.468% of his defense budget. Let's not forget that he has a Frightening economy, so tagging him with the $44,000 GDP/c is probably doing him a disservice.

Whereas everyone's nation here is supported only by the fantasy of NS.

Uh, yeah, that includes your nation, buddy. Because, you know, it's not real.

Your nation is listed as dead.

You know, that's pretty lame. It makes it sound like you have a problem with other nations being superior to you, so you're going to ignore anybody who points your inferiority out. You can either get used to the concept or spend a lot of time messing about in your ignore list, because that's just about everybody.

Oh, and if it weren't metagaming, I'd invade you and then kill every one of your citizens just so what you thought wouldn't be an issue. Since it is metagaming, I won't do it, even though intentionally going against the grain and flaunting ignorance are two of my major pet peeves where this game is concerned.

Okay, things look to be getting ugly here. Lets all try to be civil - we're all here to have fun, not to flame each other or be nasty. (Not that I'm accusing anyone of flaming or anything.)

Also, Kampfers, you seemed upset that I had written during an IC bit that "massive swamrs of low quality missiles were falling from the sky" - well, you yourself were the one who first said that they would be low quality, and when I was saying that, it was when they were falling from the sky at the end of their flight to strike at the Undershi fleet - if you had looked at the context of that one part of a sentence you brought up, you would have seen that the Undershi officer speaking was intimidated by the number of missiles etc..

I have been taking reasonable losses, and will be putting up a list in the OOC thread for our war.

Zukariaa, thanks for backing me.

New Manth...has TG's I need replying 2...

Sorry, I was sort of waiting on you... didn't you say you had to discuss stuff with MU people?

Anyway what do you need from me? Can't find any questions, but I've been getting buried in TGs these last few days and I think I may have missed a few as I was visiting some friends yesterday. If you could resent whatever you need that would be great.

Sorry...

Sorry, I was sort of waiting on you... didn't you say you had to discuss stuff with MU people?

Anyway what do you need from me? Can't find any questions, but I've been getting buried in TGs these last few days and I think I may have missed a few as I was visiting some friends yesterday. If you could resent whatever you need that would be great.

Sorry...

I think he wants to know if you are going to hurry up and invade him.

I will probably start a thread by tonight unless there's anything else that needs to be worked out. Posting from work now so I don't really have time at the moment.

Scandavian States, I never claimed I was bigger or more powerfull than anyone. I know my nations limits, and some of the things you posted stray from what I've said. I play my nation the way I want and don't bother anyone about it, even though it puts me at a considerable disadvantage sometimes, it's just the way I do it. I don't have an ignore list and never plan on ignoring anyone.

FYI, using the 5% rule of thumb for keeping warships operational, it takes about $250 million per year to support a Nimitz or other carrier of similar capability. Let's assume both your nations have similar GDP/c, a similar budget based on a percentage of the GDP as the US (generous, considering your marginal economy), and a defense budget similar in percentage to the US (~25%.)

You would have a defense budget of $3.875 trillion. It would take $25 billion per year for you to support 100 Nimitz class carriers, or roughly 0.645% of your defense budget. Mind, you yourself have stated you fund a sizable support net and spend relatively little on defense, not to mention that your GDP/c is probably half the assumed level, so it would in reality take a lot more for you to support 100 Nimitz class CVNs.

Zukariaa, on the other hand, would have a defense budget of $5.3405 trillion. To support 100 Nimitz class ships, it would take 0.468% of his defense budget. Let's not forget that he has a Frightening economy, so tagging him with the $44,000 GDP/c is probably doing him a disservice.

I'm not sure where this bit came from, so I don't know how to respond to it.
And if you're getting these economy descriptions from NS (marginal, frightening), my economy is "Very Strong." Granted it's nowhere near as good as yours or, as you claim, Zukariaa's, but it isn't "Marginal."

As for when I said his nation had died, I only meant that for a role-playing game based on the nations from NS, it was odd that there was no record of his nation except for on on NSdossier listing him as dead.

Though I don't see how invading me and killing all my citizens would make any sort of point against me, I wouldn't ignore you, though I do respect you for not doing so on a whim as you so easily could have.

Zukariaa;12942019']Have you seen the QC-NATO/Gholgoth war? It's running very smoothly.

I said hardpressed, not impossible. It's great that there are a group of people who can play for fun without having to deal with arguments.

As for when I said his nation had died, I only meant that for a role-playing game based on the nations from NS, it was odd that there was no record of his nation except for on on NSdossier listing him as dead.

http://www.nationstates.net/zukariaa

I have no idea what you're talking about. You apparently didn't even search my nation.

He probably put in the [ns] part. That's a jolt addon.

I'm not sure where this bit came from, so I don't know how to respond to it. And if you're getting these economy descriptions from NS (marginal, frightening), my economy is "Very Strong." Granted it's nowhere near as good as yours or, as you claim, Zukariaa's, but it isn't "Marginal."

Marginal isn't an actual rating. A Very Good rating is marginal compared to a Frightening rating.

As for when I said his nation had died, I only meant that for a role-playing game based on the nations from NS, it was odd that there was no record of his nation except for on on NSdossier listing him as dead.

Probably because you searched for his forum name and not his game name. Back during the switch-over to Jolt there was a period where some people weren't getting their game accounts translated to Jolt forum accounts, so people had to create a puppet nation to log onto the forums. Zukariaa went with the obvious route with his puppet and added the [NS] tag.

Though I don't see how invading me and killing all my citizens would make any sort of point against me, I wouldn't ignore you, though I do respect you for not doing so on a whim as you so easily could have.

It's rather simple, if all your citizens are dead it's rather hard to RP as a nation, isn't it? You'd have to restart with either a new nation or try to convince people to pull an Australia and deport all of their undesirables to you. Wouldn't really be a point to it, other than to exercise my frustrations.

In the land of relativity everything is marginal to something else, I just don't see why a perfectly acceptable economic rating should be treated so poorly.
You are right about his name, I misspelled it, addding the [NS] and leaving off his last 'a.' NS searches are amazingly unforgiving with typos.
And you're right, it would be rather hard to rp without a population. However not many people would give credence to such an aggressive IC response for an OOC reason, one would hope.

In the land of relativity everything is marginal to something else, I just don't see why a perfectly acceptable economic rating should be treated so poorly.
You are right about his name, I misspelled it, addding the [NS] and leaving off his last 'a.' NS searches are amazingly unforgiving with typos.
And you're right, it would be rather hard to rp without a population. However not many people would give credence to such an aggressive IC response for an OOC reason, one would hope.

An easy solution to this is clicking on the nation-name and then clicking the burron which says "Visit Users Homepage" It'll usually take you to the persons Nation unless it's been modified somehow.

EDIT: But of course it would stop working just as I mention it |:l

Microwave weapons are possible, what the hell are you talking about.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/usaf-detachment-8-continues-us-research-into-empmicrowave-weapons-01988/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/hpm.htm

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/defense/dtap/weapons/ch100309.htm

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/05/journal_homemad.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon#Microwaves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35#Directed-energy_weapons


In response to a comment on that draftroom page you referenced to, I believe the USAF is not going to put a weapon with the range of "about a lance" on one of their newest aircraft.

Well, in that case they also said that regular Faraday cages can repel them, thus, my ships at least are safe.

Microwave weps are possible...I have an HPM (High Powered Microwave) EMP warhead..already.

Well, in that case they also said that regular Faraday cages can repel them, thus, my ships at least are safe.

...no. A Faraday cage repels the EMP.

Well, Axis Nova claims that a faraday cage can also repel these.

Well, Axis Nova claims that a faraday cage can also repel these.

Oh...wait..Axis Nova said so? Oh shit, Axis Nova said so...fuck. Alright everybody lets pack up and go home, Axis Nova said the US Air Force was wrong, I mean, he probably knows right? Well fuck...damn, Axis Nova said so.

The thing with Microwaves...if they are strong enough is that they require you to shield the entire system..not just certain parts...a microwave can knock out everything...sub systems etc etc...I combined microwaves and EMP in my war head to get maximum effect....

Well the USAF has fucked up a lot of things before blackhelm. Did you put these things on your ships before the invasion. I think the idea popped into your head and you put them on half-way througe, or at least, thats what Dartia made it sound like.

Zukariaa;12941954']You haven't been very far in NS, apparently. The war I'm a part of, the QC-NATO/Gholgoth war, has fleets in the thousands, with Questers probably going with at least a hundred or more carriers (probably several hundred). Hell, he's invading Gholgoth with 10,000 ships. They're much larger nations, but it just puts it into perspective. My navy has around 100 carriers in all (though I suppose I've become a navally centric nation as of late).

Holy christ... Ihave like
30 Nimitiz Class, and 10 Carriers that are 2x there size. I mean dear god man...10,000 ships?

Yea like those lost active nukes in the Louisiana swamp...bastards...

Broken Arrows.

Yea like those lost active nukes in the Louisiana swamp...bastards...

they are not the only ones they have lost

I know that...they are just first ones to pop into my head lol

Holy christ... Ihave like
30 Nimitz Class, and 10 Carriers that are 2x there size. I mean dear god man...10,000 ships?

*laughs* Welcome to the power of the 03 nation. Questers is a bit of a naval nut, he spends something like 65% of his military budget on his navy and I'm pretty sure his military budget is his biggest single item. I myself have nearly 12,000 ships in my navy, but my military is more balanced than Questers' is (and I have a more reasonable tax rate.)

Oh...wait..Axis Nova said so? Oh shit, Axis Nova said so...fuck. Alright everybody lets pack up and go home, Axis Nova said the US Air Force was wrong, I mean, he probably knows right? Well fuck...damn, Axis Nova said so.

You might want to actually make sure you're right before you mock someone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwaves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding

to be honest yr all right but if thats a lot of cash im stupid and its not!
you need real spending like the antec union does we are only a small country but we have a large milatary i will help fund 1 of your countrys with no VAT so you will be spending less:sniper::mp5:

Holy christ... Ihave like
30 Nimitiz Class, and 10 Carriers that are 2x there size. I mean dear god man...10,000 ships?

its not that much!!

allso whats the point in a navywhen we can supply huge flyin fortraces to destroy navy ships we don't have a navy because my country has been hovering sice being built we only landed 1se and that was for repairs:D

to be honest yr all right but if thats a lot of cash im stupid and its not!
you need real spending like the antec union does we are only a small country but we have a large milatary i will help fund 1 of your countrys with no VAT so you will be spending less:sniper::mp5:

allso whats the point in a navywhen we can supply huge flyin fortraces to destroy navy ships we don't have a navy because my country has been hovering sice being built we only landed 1se and that was for repairs:D

yur right now go away with your spam

yur right now go away with your spam
its not spam i live on cloud 9 its the only planet orbiting earth

its not spam i live on cloud 9 its the only planet orbiting earth
used to at least:mad:

your right

Hey Gataway, the war on your colony is still on.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=535219

My naval orbat gives you a little idea of how to make a good navy.

...a Microwave is different from an EMP, which is what a Farraday cage keeps out.

And Tigerlan, I assumed that since you launched AtA missiles, I would be in range to use my anti-shipping missiles.

You COULD cover all your electronics in a faraday cage as long as the gaps in the cage were small enough in relation to the microwave wavelength. However, I think that would also fuck with your own stuff. For instance, if you covered your radar in this manner to protect it, it would also prevent you using radar of that wavelength or above.

Admittedly it's been a while since my last physics class, but that's how I think it would work...

Blackhelm, did you not read the articles? Microwaves are electromagnetic radiation, so hardening against an EMP will stop them as well.

More to the point, microwaves have HORRIBLE penetration of anything metal and extremely short range. You would actually be better off using an actual nuke than trying to zap someone's electronics through the hull of a ship with one.

For an excellent demonstration of this principle, put any metal object in your microwave. The same thing happens to anything metal that gets hit by microwaves-- even if it's powerful enough to melt the metal, you will get jack for penetration.

And I stille need the map of Barokin with the Corporate bases, cities and stuff pointed out for my Spec. Ops. to use.

And I stille need the map of Barokin with the Corporate bases, cities and stuff pointed out for my Spec. Ops. to use.

Dude, I dont have Barokin, that is DT....I have Grosse Reich.

Dude, I dont have Barokin, that is DT....I have Grosse Reich.

I'll talk with DT and figure out some good spots for the cities

Dude, I dont have Barokin, that is DT....I have Grosse Reich.

Sorry then, I guessed that since you were in charge of the operation, you'd have bases there.

Don't be fooled, DT isn't small or naive by any stretch of the imagination. I just happen to run my nation so it is realisticly stable, whereas most nations rping in II today spread their budgets to 58% on defense

Well, for more perspective, The United States spends around half of its budget on defence. Derscon spends about 44% (which is surprisingly average for a lot of NS nations) and has about a 72.1 Trillion dollar defence budget. (For a comparison, Questers spends more proportionally than I do, but when it comes down to dollar-spent, I outspend Questers in Defence.) (All according to NSTracker, mind you.)

Blackhelm, did you not read the articles? Microwaves are electromagnetic radiation, so hardening against an EMP will stop them as well.

More to the point, microwaves have HORRIBLE penetration of anything metal and extremely short range. You would actually be better off using an actual nuke than trying to zap someone's electronics through the hull of a ship with one.

For an excellent demonstration of this principle, put any metal object in your microwave. The same thing happens to anything metal that gets hit by microwaves-- even if it's powerful enough to melt the metal, you will get jack for penetration.

Quote for truth. So, even if the microwave weapons worked, the missiles would have to be so close to your ships, they might as well have just hit you anyway.

Oh, and how many of the RPs in this war are closed?

More to the point, microwaves have HORRIBLE penetration of anything metal and extremely short range. You would actually be better off using an actual nuke than trying to zap someone's electronics through the hull of a ship with one.

Not true, if you pump them full of energy then their range increases, a little costly but totally worth it to sink the enemies flagship in a single shot, besides Microwave Lasers are a little piddly, that's why I use... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam_weapon "KKZAAAAP!"

[QUOTE=Derscon;12954405]Quote for truth. So, even if the microwave weapons worked, the missiles would have to be so close to your ships, they might as well have just hit you anyway.QUOTE]

Why use Microwaves against Missiles??? Why not use THEL's, an almost 100% coverage and a low cost per kill rate, it's waaay better than having to pump up a Microwave.

For one, THEL's are not effective against true ASM's.

For one, THEL's are not effective against true ASM's.

Why not?

Not being rude, I just like to learn.

I don't think the power of the laser is strong enough. It has to linger on the missile to long for it to take down large amounts. I read this on wiki so it may not be one hundred percent accurate. THEL was primarily designed to intercept smaller rockets like katuyshas, not the "armored" and sophisticated ASMs. That and its range is too short. Sort of like the problems CIWS has.

I don't think the power of the laser is strong enough. It has to linger on the missile to long for it to take down large amounts. I read this on wiki so it may not be one hundred percent accurate. THEL was primarily designed to intercept smaller rockets like katuyshas, not the "armored" and sophisticated ASMs. That and its range is too short. Sort of like the problems CIWS has.

Ah, I see, that actually makes sense, I mean wasn't it designed for the Israeli's in order to fight Improvised Rockets and Mortars? Meh, umm, if you pumped the THEL with a little more energy would it be able to take out a stronger warhead?

TPF's got a point with THEL. The laser has to be able to penetrate the missile, ad with heavier armor on more modern weaponry, it's significantly harder for a directed-energy weapon to pierce the shell. You could get around this by boosting energy levels potentially, but then you run into the problem of having that power avaliable. That's not just a minor problem-generating the energy level for a far stronger THEL would require, even in low-PMT format, a helluva lot of power.

TPF's got a point with THEL. The laser has to be able to penetrate the missile, ad with heavier armor on more modern weaponry, it's significantly harder for a directed-energy weapon to pierce the shell. You could get around this by boosting energy levels potentially, but then you run into the problem of having that power avaliable. That's not just a minor problem-generating the energy level for a far stronger THEL would require, even in low-PMT format, a helluva lot of power.

Hmmm, this could present a problem, what would you advise as a suitable replacement for the THEL? asides from the obvious suspects (CIWS, Anti-missile-missiles etc)

Also, people have suggested that even having the missile "roll" in in flight would make it even harder for the laser to burn through since it is not burning on one point.

Also, people have suggested that even having the missile "roll" in in flight would make it even harder for the laser to burn through since it is not burning on one point.

Seems like that'd make it unstable, though.

Seems like that'd make it unstable, though.
Seemingly not, the Rolling Airframe Missile uses this exact same method.

Hmmm, this could present a problem, what would you advise as a suitable replacement for the THEL? asides from the obvious suspects (CIWS, Anti-missile-missiles etc)

An electrolaser may be something that could work against missiles. Essentially a high-powered stun gun that can knock out electronics-however, not sure if it'd be able to puncture armor. The MIRACL from the USAF has been used against a satellite-it's a chemical laser-and seems to possibly be a route.

An electrolaser may be something that could work against missiles. Essentially a high-powered stun gun that can knock out electronics-however, not sure if it'd be able to puncture armor. The MIRACL from the USAF has been used against a satellite-it's a chemical laser-and seems to possibly be a route.

I currently use Particle Beam Weapons on my Battleships and on my land emplacements, are they similar and if not would they work just as well?

Well your operating in the PMT range anyway so having lasers on ships doesn't seem like a big deal. For MT nations its a bit different.

I currently use Particle Beam Weapons on my Battleships and on my land emplacements, are they similar and if not would they work just as well?

A realistic Particle Beam Weapon hasn't been developed IRL, but if you could generate the power ability (similar to THEL's problem here...), such a weapon would be virtually unstoppable against missiles and light armor. Essentially, Particle Beam weapons utilize kinetic energy-and though the mass is really small-are traveling awfully close to the speed of light. Since kinetic energy equals half of the mass times velocity squared, the result is going to be a stream of highly energized particles.

Alright, Physics is over :p

A realistic Particle Beam Weapon hasn't been developed IRL, but if you could generate the power ability (similar to THEL's problem here...), such a weapon would be virtually unstoppable against missiles and light armor. Essentially, Particle Beam weapons utilize kinetic energy-and though the mass is really small-are traveling awfully close to the speed of light. Since kinetic energy equals half of the mass times velocity squared, the result is going to be a stream of highly energized particles.

Alright, Physics is over :p

lol, well I asked the guys over at the Draftroom and they gave me a handy gauge...

-Particle beam infantry weapons: Late-PMT at best, possibly even confined to FT.
-Particle beam weapon tanks: Late-PMT, although some will probably still contest them.
-PBWs on aircraft: Late-PMT on fighters, mid-PMT for big planes with onboard nuclear reactors (fission or fusion)
-PBWs on ships: Mid-PMT
-PBWs on static ground stations: Early-to-mid PMT, possibly MT, especially if you believe the conspiracy theories

And seeing as I'm Mid PMT I figured no bads.

I view Mid-PMT as the Magnetic Accelerator range (the weapon I particularly like...), so yeah, I could see that scale being pretty realistic.

well regardless of what would be better...you're fleet's anti-missile defenses won't suddenly upgrade in the middle of combat unless you're going to sail them all the way back to Toopoxia and re outfit them then return.....furthermore I didn't shoot anything at your ships yet...

well regardless of what would be better...you're fleet's anti-missile defenses won't suddenly upgrade in the middle of combat unless you're going to sail them all the way back to Toopoxia and re outfit them then return.....furthermore I didn't shoot anything at your ships yet...

yes yes yes I'm well aware of your ships movements, however looking at the time it's too late for me to respond right this second.

Also, as previously stated, most of my ships are armed with Particle Beam Weapons anyways, but i'll undergo a complete refit of all my ships as and when they return home.

Not true, if you pump them full of energy then their range increases, a little costly but totally worth it to sink the enemies flagship in a single shot, besides Microwave Lasers are a little piddly, that's why I use... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam_weapon "KKZAAAAP!"

[QUOTE=Derscon;12954405]Quote for truth. So, even if the microwave weapons worked, the missiles would have to be so close to your ships, they might as well have just hit you anyway.QUOTE]

Why use Microwaves against Missiles??? Why not use THEL's, an almost 100% coverage and a low cost per kill rate, it's waaay better than having to pump up a Microwave.

There are two problems with a microwave that powerful: power source, and heat. Granted, you're in an ocean, but that has it's limits.

Also, far more alarmingly for a microwave beam, while it is on, it will tend to obscure your own radars in the direction it's firing. That's one of the biiiig reasons I'm dropping them.

THEL is bad on a ship because it's a chemical laser. It's not practical to haul around that much crap when you may be thousands of miles from port. A solid state laser (look it up on Wikipedia) is a much better option. As a matter of fact, the Joint Strike Fighter is slated to recieve an internal 1 MW solid state laser in 2010.

In PMT, solid states are still your best bet, and instead of having lots of little lasers, for naval use it's preferable to have a smaller number of much larger and more powerful ones, then aim the beam with mirrors or prisms or whatever.

Even so, lasers should be used as a supplemental defense. Gun/RAM launcher hybrid turrets are likely always going to be in use, unless someone comes up with something amazing in real life.

Though this is starting to drift more than a little offtopic, lasers are most useful as heavy antiair in PMT on land.

Just as a note, Axis, I didn't say anything about the part with THEL. That was him not putting the left bracket on the endquote box. ;)

Just as a note, Axis, I didn't say anything about the part with THEL. That was him not putting the left bracket on the endquote box. ;)

2 Years i've been making posts on this forum and never once have I made a mistake with my HTML, I do it once and I'm branded for life, Gyah!

Well, for more perspective, The United States spends around half of its budget on defence. Derscon spends about 44% (which is surprisingly average for a lot of NS nations) and has about a 72.1 Trillion dollar defence budget. (For a comparison, Questers spends more proportionally than I do, but when it comes down to dollar-spent, I outspend Questers in Defence.) (All according to NSTracker, mind you.)

Quote for truth. So, even if the microwave weapons worked, the missiles would have to be so close to your ships, they might as well have just hit you anyway.

Oh, and how many of the RPs in this war are closed?

The USAF Center for Strategy and Technology believes microwave directed energy weapons are ideally suited for defending against missiles, and have said so in this report (http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cst/csat11.pdf).

I encourage everyone to read that report, as it lays to rest many of the disputes that you've been having.

edit: PS. Very weak microwave weapons designed for crowd control have a range of 500 meters. Mounted on an aircraft or ship, the range would be MANY times greater.

edit: PS. Very weak microwave weapons designed for crowd control have a range of 500 meters. Mounted on an aircraft or ship, the range would be MANY times greater.

Yes, you'll be able to control crowds from kilometers away. Now try and figure out what the vastly larger power requirements are for shooting down missiles.

To follow up on Derscon's request, links to the RPs?

Yes, you'll be able to control crowds from kilometers away. Now try and figure out what the vastly larger power requirements are for shooting down missiles.

To follow up on Derscon's request, links to the RPs?

The USAF report I provided won this argument already. Since you haven't read it, here is a quote from it. Bare in mind that this is but one page of a 30 page report.

"For the last several decades, surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles have constituted a significant threat to aircraft. These missiles are guided by a variety of sensor systems, including infrared, radio frequency, electro-optical, laser-guided, or any combination thereof. The majority of the missiles on the global market employ infrared missiles and radio-frequency missiles, but the problem is that there are no weapon systems in the U.S. inventory that can actively counter these missiles.

Surface-to-air missiles can be broken into the two categories of man-portable and vehicle-mounted. In recent years, rebel forces and terrorists have acquired many shoulder-mounted man-portable air defense systems (known as MANPADS), including the Russian SA-8 and Stinger missile, which are relatively inexpensive and easy to operate. Larger missiles, such as the Russian SA-10, have also appeared in many regions of the world.

Large military aircraft, such as the C-17, the C-130, and the Airborne Laser (ABL), are tempting targets, especially because these relatively slow-moving aircraft are not highly maneuverable during take-off and landing. While some of these large aircraft and most of the small fighter aircraft are already equipped with self-protection systems (chaff and/or flares) that may defeat the older, less sophisticated missiles, these systems do not have the capability to actively engage incoming missiles.

Importantly, however, a high power microwave system that was either permanently mounted or pod-mounted could actively engage an incoming missile. The microwave system would be triggered by the aircraft’s missile warning sensor, which would provide information on the location of the missile and limited information on its trajectory. The concept would be to fire a microwave system in order to flood that region of the sky with micro-wave energy. When this microwave energy enters several systems within the missile, the missile is likely to experience drastic changes in its flight trajectory. This rapid change in trajectory can produce several failure mechanisms in the missile, some of which are catastrophic ranging from missile body failure because of high “g-force” turns, to warhead fuze detonation and forcing the missile to change direction and eventually run out of fuel.

In this operational condition, microwave weapons offer several significant advantages. First, as an “area weapon” that can engage numerous missiles within the target area, it will simultaneously affect all missiles within High Power Microwave area. Second, the microwave beam can be rapidly retargeted, especially if one uses phased array antenna systems, in order to provide protection in several directions. Third, the microwave weapon may be sized and packaged to protect most aircraft. Microwave systems for large, less maneuverable, and slower aircraft can be mounted internally, and yet still possess sufficient power to engage missiles at longer ranges. Rough calculations suggest that a microwave weapon system on large aircraft would not severely reduce the amount of cargo or the range of the aircraft. Microwave systems for smaller, faster, more maneuverable aircraft could be mounted in pods, and while these pods will produce some drag, the increased protection will outweigh the penalty."

Enjoy the fireworks. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12957037&postcount=4)

I did read it actually. And that quote does absolutely nothing to answer the question. What are the power requirements? Furthermore, you do realize, do you not, that there is a large difference in the requirements to knock down a thin skinned anti-aircraft missile and an armored sea-skimming anti-ship missile, right?

And Civil War in TPF.

Dartia, the report doesn't address how to make an efficient power supply so that you aren't dragging along a 3 km ship solely dedicated to one microwave system. Assuming you know about the crowd control, very low power systems, they are mounted on vehicles and have quite a large power requirement, and that's to counter flesh and blood, non-lethally. Now, counter missiels with enough force to boil the fuel and make it so it's strong enough to punch through armor on an EMP-defended weapon. The power requirement will be huge.

A more effective way is a tactical laser that can damage the armor system enough to cause the missile's flight stress to tear the weapon apart without an intact armor system.

We totally need to send in something, even if it's small, I'm tempted to split off a few forces from Gat and help, if not then just send in a BIO.

Also, TPF mentioned something about being 100% open now before a hundred NPE's get on my back about the closed tag.

I did read it actually. And that quote does absolutely nothing to answer the question. What are the power requirements? Furthermore, you do realize, do you not, that there is a large difference in the requirements to knock down a thin skinned anti-aircraft missile and an armored sea-skimming anti-ship missile, right?

While the quote doesn't come out and say "x amount of watts is required", the report does say the spare energy created by jet engines in sufficient to power an an long-range weapon. Thus, I would say 1 megawatt is more than adequate for defending against air-to-air missiles.

I would think the requirements for shooting down a sea-skimming missile would be approximately the same as shooting down an anti-air missile. Even "armored" missiles won't have very thick armor. If they did, there would still be vulnerable areas in the rear of the missile plus wherever the missile's guidance sensors are located. Unless the missile's electronics are hardened against microwave frequencies, it is going down.

Amazonian Beasts, I have never claimed that microwave directed energy weapons can "punch through armor", defeat targets hardened vs. microwave frequencies, or that they are more effective than lasers in every circumstance. Obviously, if an aircraft can carry a powerful microwave weapon, I doubt a 3km long ship will struggle to carry one.

The problem with microwaves is that their short wave-length makes them easily absorbed by molecules in the air- N2, O2, CO2 and H2O. These molecules simply absorb photons of energy from the beam and become energized (hot). The result is that the beam loses power as a square of the distance traveled- and yes that beam power falls off very quickly.

The EMP pulse effect of nuclear weapons and EMP bombs are so devastating because the pulse is quite broad in wavelengths [typically from UV to radio] and very intense in amplitude[high energy or power]. This raw energy acts like a power surge without wires and burns out any solid state electronics that aren't specifically protected. And even then, you might find your EMP protection was not quite enough. Miss one connection or filter and ZAP.

It is interesting to note that very simple electronics that don't employ transistors or digital circuits often survive EMP. This would lead to the strange situation where computers and new vehicles would be dead as a hammer and your 1950 chevy truck and tube radio would work like a charm.

The problem with microwaves is that their short wave-length makes them easily absorbed by molecules in the air- N2, O2, CO2 and H2O. These molecules simply absorb photons of energy from the beam and become energized (hot). The result is that the beam loses power as a square of the distance traveled- and yes that beam power falls off very quickly.

The EMP pulse effect of nuclear weapons and EMP bombs are so devastating because the pulse is quite broad in wavelengths [typically from UV to radio] and very intense in amplitude[high energy or power]. This raw energy acts like a power surge without wires and burns out any solid state electronics that aren't specifically protected. And even then, you might find your EMP protection was not quite enough. Miss one connection or filter and ZAP.

It is interesting to note that very simple electronics that don't employ transistors or digital circuits often survive EMP. This would lead to the strange situation where computers and new vehicles would be dead as a hammer and your 1950 chevy truck and tube radio would work like a charm.

Nice argument, I didn't think about that.

A "Long-range weapon" doesn't specify how much energy will be in the microwave pulse, nor specify the details of said energy discharge. You may be able to generate a long-range weapon, and I've already read your report, yes-but I still don't think a microwave weapon, without a massive amount of power of the type that'd have to be ground-based, could be able to defeat the armor plate and take down a missile.

On to other things...

All you guys surrendering: ? This war ain't even close to being over. Don't believe you people.

Hey, I don't know if this is still active as an OOC thread, I just wanted to mention quite clearly that my invasion of Kampfers is over and that I'm expecting a massive invasion of my homeland.