NationStates Jolt Archive

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(Semi-OOC:)
The International Court of War (ICW) is an unbiased, impartial organization that seeks justice for war crimes or crimes against peoples. It was founded in order to hold those who have committed heinous acts responsible.

The ICW's Internal Structure

The ICW shall have two entities, the Main Court and the Grand Jury.

The ICW Main Court shall consist of the judge (me, for now), the defendant and plaintiff, and the Main Court Jury, which shall consist of all ICW members that are not the plaintiff or defendant.

The judge shall be the supervisor and coordinator of the trial, and nothing else.

The ICW Grand Jury shall consist of the largest 1/3rd of the nations of the ICW Main Court.

The Court Process

Any case shall be announced in the ICW thread. It will then be directed to a session of the Grand Jury, in which evidence for and/or against the case shall be presented. The Grand Jury shall decide if the case merits a full trial. If it does, the case shall be presented to the Main Court, where testimonies/evidence/etc. shall be given and the Jury shall reach a verdict and sentence appropriately.

Sentences

Being an in-game entity, the court obviously has no power to delete/move/ban/etc. nations. It can, however, issue fines and settlements and require actions, such as requiring defendants to give territory (or other things) to the plaintiff. They can also dismiss the case.

Membership

In order to have a say in a case, or in other words, be a member of the jury, you only need to state your intention and also who will be your IC representative at the court.

You do not need to be a member of the ICW to be a plaintiff or defendant. However, if two members are in a case at the same time, they shall be "de jure" temporarily expelled from the ICW until a decision is reached.

Law
As there are no treaties or Geneva Conventions in NationStates, there are no real applicable laws. Jurors are asked to decide based on their appraisal of the situation and their best judgement.

If crimes are committed in a nation that has laws against war crimes, then those laws will be used in judgment.

Enforcement
If a penalty is levied against a nation, and that nation refuses to comply, the ICW may choose to force the rogue nation to comply. All members of the ICW, who agree with the original verdict, would be asked to contribute forces to assist in enforcement.

Notes
Any of the above can be revised at any time (especially the makeup of the Grand Jury, which I consider the best way I can think of right now.)

The actual process of a court trial will be created when there is one.

Respectfully Sumbitted,
Hon. Philip J. Clark,
VISA Corp Rep.

Member Nations:

VISA Corp


Grand Jury Members:
none yet

Official Statement from TSRT Government
"We condemn the very existance of this so-called 'court', which is obviously a front for various nations who wish to impose their will on others. This 'court' has been classified by the Intellegince-Commissarat as a terrorist organisation, any members of this court found in Red Tide will be arrested.

In addition, all refugees fleeing persecution from this organisation will be accepted into the Totalitarian State."
End Statement

#Begin Transmission#

The Holy Confederacy of The Aeson, while choosing not go so far as the Totalitarian State of Red Tide, refuses to acknowledge the jurisdiction of this court in any cases involving or related to Aesonic citizens. Any attempt to force the rulings of this court upon Aesonic citizens will be viewed as a hostile act and responded to as such.

#End Transmission#

The Technocracy of Neo Undelia would like to offer its full support to this Court, noble institution that it is, and would also like to officially express our intention to be a member of this organization. We look forward to seeing justice done on an international level as it is in our great technocracy.
~ John Eldey, Executor for the Technocratic Council

The Community, unfortunately, cannot extend recognition to this so-called "court." We fail to see how this organization can deliver fair and just rulings. This will serve as nothing but a way for a large conglomerate of nations to exert their will upon others not capable of defending themselves.

The Community will stand to defend those who suffer from persecution from this court.

~Alex Connor
Speaker of The Community

The Technocracy of Neo Undelia would like to offer its full support to this Court, noble institution that it is, and would also like to officially express our intention to be a member of this organization. We look forward to seeing justice done on an international level as it is in our great technocracy.
~ John Eldey, Executor for the Technocratic Council

We thank you for your support.

The Community, unfortunately, cannot extend recognition to this so-called "court." We fail to see how this organization can deliver fair and just rulings. This will serve as nothing but a way for a large conglomerate of nations to exert their will upon others not capable of defending themselves.

I assure you, this court will be honest and impartial. We will issue fair judgment upon those who need it.

The Community will stand to defend those who suffer from persecution from this court.

You will end up bored, then, as there will be not persecution, no one to defend.

~Philip J. Clark

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Official Communiqué

To the ICW:

British Londinium refuses to acknowledge the authority of this court over Londinian nationals.

Sincerely,
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The Rt. Hon. Sir Alistair Davidson, MP
Consul of British Londinium

Kulikovia acknowledges the authority and and function of the International War Court. We also applaude the organization as a means for international cooperation towards the prosecution of war crimininals and that justice may be done.

-The Worker's State

Like some of our fellows, we will not recognise any authority vested by this court within our borders or those of our overseas territory. This is little more than attempting to force international law upon those who exist outside the United Nations or other such organisations, and we will not stand for it.

This is little more than attempting to force international law upon those who exist outside the United Nations or other such organisations, and we will not stand for it.

I don't know how this correlates to the United Nations at all.

This is just an organization attempting to hold people responsible.

~Philip J. Clark

Visa....a word with you please. Check your TG's.

((OOC: I'd suggest cleaning up some of the wordage in the original post, since ICly NationStates is not referred to as such and there's no such act as "banning" and such in character. Just to clear up any confusion there might be or to make it look more official and completely in-character. :) ))

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Imperial Department of Foreign Affairs


The Libertarian Empire refuses to accept or acknowledge any rulings or penalties placed upon itself, its assets, or its allies and classifies such actions as illegal acts in the eyes of the Imperial Crown. Any Imperial citizen which is prosecuted under the International Court of War without consent will be protected by his or her Constitutional rights and be made exempt from any rulings made by the International Court, or any other mutli-national court claiming authority over the Libertarian Empire, her Territories, and her freedom-loving citizens. All crimes committed by the Empire's citizens overseas will be managed by the nation in which the offense took place, with a right to a counsel of their choice, Cravanian or otherwise. Any attempt to prevent this directive will be met with a fierce response.

Any illegal rulings and penalties placed upon the Libertarian Empire or her citizens will be ignored, any attempts to enforce them met with the appropriate response.

I personally thank you for your attention in the matter, and wish to assure you that the Empire will not under any circumstances take action to interfere with the operations of this court without the proper provocation, such as charges being raised against the Empire or an Imperial citizen.

Signed,

Sir Leroy Webbings
Leroy Webbings
Director of Foreign Affairs

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Official Announcement from VISA Corp

We refuse to acknowledge the very existence of such a court. We feel that we will do as we please.

We also wish to inform everyone that this "Hon. Philip J. Clark" appears on our immigration records as "deported". We are dreadfully sorry for any actions this expatriot may have caused, and we have issued a warrant for his arrest.

Apologies,
Kenneth L. Sommers
CEO, VISA Corp

OOC: How's that for a plot twist?

I assure you, this court will be honest and impartial. We will issue fair judgment upon those who need it.
~Philip J. Clark

Your court relies on trial by jury. Without basing it on any standard of morality (ie-the Geneva Conventions, The Treaty of Westphalia, etc.), you rely solely on the judgement of other nations.

The fallancy of this is that you rely on morality by majority. It was Kierkegaard who said that the crowd is untruth. Of course, this is exacerbated by the fact that the only way to enforce the rulings made by this court is by force. Essentially, you say your justifications are moral because you have the force to back them up. It is my experience in dealing with other entities in the international community that morality is dictated by action; that people or nations will commit an act and then declare themselves justified in doing so.

I am afraid your court has no standing. We do not recognize your court as a legal entity, and will oppose it should it threaten our interests.

~Alex Connor

I don't know how this correlates to the United Nations at all.

This is just an organization attempting to hold people responsible.

~Philip J. Clark

Effectively, those within the United Nations have certain limitations to their actions lest their fellow nations take umbrage to it and decide force is the best course of action. For those outside the United Nations, however, there are no limitations except those the nation itself imposes; they could be classed as "rogue nations" were it not that that definition is stupid. What this court will undoubtedly attempt to do is bring the laws of the United Nations - maybe not the exact laws, but certainly those with the same spirit - to those nations outside it; someone more stupid would call it bringing law to the lawless.

Nice save VISA.

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Official Announcement from VISA Corp

We refuse to acknowledge the very existence of such a court. We feel that we will do as we please.

We also wish to inform everyone that this "Hon. Philip J. Clark" appears on our immigration records as "deported". We are dreadfully sorry for any actions this expatriot may have caused, and we have issued a warrant for his arrest.

Apologies,
Kenneth L. Sommers
CEO, VISA Corp
In response to Announcement:
The Technocracy wishes to know in connection with what charges Mr. Clark is being sought.
~John Eldey, Executor of the Technocratic Council

In response to Announcement:
The Technocracy wishes to know in connection with what charges Mr. Clark is being sought.
~John Eldey, Executor of the Technocratic Council

That does not concern you. We just want him back, to give him a lecture about starting international organizations. Fireworks and electrodes may be involved.

~Kenworth L. Stevens
Director, Foreign Affairs

That does not concern you. We just want him back, to give him a lecture about starting international organizations. Fireworks and electrodes may be involved.

~Kenworth L. Stevens
Director, Foreign Affairs

In that case, I hope Mr. Clark is aware that the Technocracy of Neo Undelia offers full asylum to any and all persons fleeing political persecution.
~John Eldey, Executor for the Technocratic Council

OOC:
This has been tried MANY MANY times. It didn't work then and it won't work now. And your plot twist is rather...interesting to say the least.


IC:
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FROM THE OFFICE OF THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFIARS
MR LARRY WILLIAMS
We here in the Shazbotdom Empire do not recognise this court, nor do we recognise VISA Corp as a soverign nation. We feel that a nation who can get one person to highjack their national seal and use it to further something like this doesn't deserve to be recognised by us. Thus we are suspending all travel to that strip of land called VISA Corp. Any and all people from VISA Corp found within our boarders will be charged with Espionage and will be tried in a Shazbotdom Court. From there they will be sentenced and imprisoned at a maximum security prison.

*snip*...bringing law to the lawless.

OOC:
Nice Judge Dredd tie-in.

OOC:
Nice Judge Dredd tie-in.

[It is? Huh, I just used it because it sounded suitable.]

We feel that a nation who can get one person to highjack their national seal and use it to further something like this doesn't deserve to be recognised by us.

They didn't, he only hijacked our communications system. Regrettably.

Any and all people from VISA Corp found within our boarders will be charged with Espionage and will be tried in a Shazbotdom Court. From there they will be sentenced and imprisoned at a maximum security prison.

Now you've done it. We vehemently oppose this decision. You cannot wrongfully imprison our citizens just because of their nationality. Just because one now dead man "founded" some court does not mean you can discriminate against our people.

~Kenneth Sommers
CEO, The Extremely Sovereign Nation of VISA Corp

VISA Corp is, indeed a sovereign nation. It is was spun off from Akimonad so that it would have greater power on an international scale.

Your failure to recognize VISA Corp's sovereignty is regrettable. We will be withdrawing our embassy from Shazbotdom until further notice.

~Dr. Jules Hodz

OOC: Is there any rhyme or reason to that action?

Any and all people from VISA Corp found within our boarders will be charged with Espionage and will be tried in a Shazbotdom Court. From there they will be sentenced and imprisoned at a maximum security prison.


It seems contradictory that you would deny the existence of a state, yet persecute those citizens as spies of that state. If you deny their citizenry, then you cannot charge them with espionage because you have effectively (at least within your own nation) denied the existence of their state.


Furthermore, the Republic of One World Alliance finds this whole situation rather complexing.

I believe Visa Corp owes the international community of which it may or may not have purposefully addressed in the creation of a court an official, and more thorough explanation.

OOC: I thought it was a good idea, too :(

I believe Visa Corp owes the international community of which it may or may not have purposefully addressed in the creation of a court an official, and more thorough explanation.

OOC: I thought it was a good idea, too :(

OOC: Here's your explanation then.

I thought of this whole thing at around 11:45 pm. I thought I should try it, so I posted it.

Later, I realized that it would never work, as Shaz pointed out, since there would be no peaceful way to get nations to follow it. International law is marred by things like these.

After realizing that, though many might like the idea, it would never have any chance of applying the justice that it stood for, I quickly realized that, ICly, my nation would never stand such a thing. Also, it would have caused me to probably betray some alliances I'm a part of (specifically Corporate Alliance). I concoted a little story about a wanted man who was apparently crazy and put out a warrant for his arrest. Later I mentioned he was dead, which I hoped would put an end to this.

This is now done and over. My apologies if I failed to meet expectations, but something like this just wouldn't work, especially in a game that essentially lets you be selfish on an imaginary scale.

~Aki
Proprietor of VISA Corp (and Akimonad)

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Official Diplomatic Message


Although Cookesland is utterly opposed to the formation of such a court, we do believe that it's idea is noble. We suggest citing the NEATO pact in the event of accusations of Human Rights Abuse.


Best Wishes,
Steven J. Andolor
Steven J. Andolor
Secretary of State
The United States of Cookesland

And thus it ends. Yes. It ends. Leave it.

Is there anyway a mod can shut this thread down?

ICCD offers to construct the headquarters of this organization in Lacus Prae at it's own cost. It will also supply custodians and security for the exterior of the court. Set aside for the building is a seperate helicopter landing zone and a small ultralight runway.

Lodgings for the grand jury will be onsite, including kitchen, bathroom and entertainment rooms. A enclosed secure garden facility has also been set aside. It will be located on an artificial flotation island in the middle of Lacus Prae.



ICCD is willing to hold the court as a ' commissionary court, with appeals able to go to Imperial Justisar's or the highest Imperial Court. In regard to ICCD's trial paticipation. The Trial period will be until the Imperial senate and other legalative bodies acceed to the court.

Considering the expelled status of the Judge we offer him domicile in ICCD at the court. It will take around a year to build the structure.


-----------------
Even if it is a no go ICCD is still building a secure structure in the middle of lacus prae.

Urcea acknowledges and recognizes the existence of this court and wishes to join ICCD's court.

We would like to know why the ICCD would build something that is not needed at all. You have seen what transpired. The creator was rouge, captured and presumble deceased. What are you building?

Also we find Urcea recognizing this court rather ironic because of there current action in the war and occupation of Cazliae(( fuck i don't how to spell XD))

Aimless von Strangaild, High Leader of Zackaroth

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Kiravian Empire

Permissum Astrum Subleuco

Imperial Secriat of Justice

The Kiravian Empire fully recognizes the existance of this court. However, we do find the court quite baseless. If a legal code can be drawn up on what constitutes a war crime, then the Empire will gladly lend its support and official endorsement.

Answer me this. How can one call this a court if there are no laws to interpret? This organization sadly has no right in a countries affairs. It also has no political foundation to stand upon.

Thanks for your questions the Logothe's Office will attempt to answer your question to the best of our ability.

The Divinus Imperium of Intracircumcordei is a state that tries to foster and inable international cohesion, cooperation and peace. We see providing the oppourtunity to create a forum of exchange of ideas and foster accountability to be a benefit.

ICCD for some time has been considering building facilities on Lacus Prae. FYI Lacus Prae is also the name of one of the Major Cities of Intracircumcordei in the Imperial Heartland in the East of ICCD's Southern Territories. Lacus Prae also happens to be the Diplomatic Capital of ICCD. The area around Lacus Prae is specifically reserved for Diplomatic Embassies and some international chapters. An international court on the lake that can serve multiple purposes including secure forums and conferences is only seen as a benefit.

The benefit of a court of war is that international opinion on ongoing conflicts can be addressed. Also in setting low standards, that is no death penalties or otherwise it insures that individuals who may otherwise just be lynched may find a secure medium to bring out facts of occurrences and be neutralized and taken away from their direct base of power. That particular area of Lacus Prae is a High Security Zone. Building space is also at a premium. IIS, Dian Infrastructure Services and the Imperial Engineering Council put an offering to start 'water based' construction projects. This building would be an example. Lacus Prae is one of the few communities in ICCD with a population of over 30 million plus 4 million transient residents, to have non conventional surface buildings. We felt that a surface lake structure would add to some of the already interesting non-conventional surface structures that already exist in the area. Also having an island on the lake might add to the beauty of the lake. With gardens and other aesthetic designs it would be a gem on the lake.

In line with secret documents as of 3 months ago ICCD was also interested in creating multiple air launch points for international residents in the adjacent embassies. Having an area that would be less prone to attack due to international presence may be a benefit in securing the safety of international individuals.

The court is a medium that communication could go on in. Having the court located in ICCD would alleviate security risks for Dian residents taking part in the court process. Also ICCD sees itself as a secure locality for a court. It also doesn't question it's motives in participating in or facilitiating the court.

Also in the case of a no go on the court of war forming the structure can be used as an additional office of the Logothe's Office for foreign affairs, including housing temporary state guests in a secure environment.

The structure is a mixed design, it will include aquaculture, fish pools, a zigauraout like structure with two smaller zigaurats. The structure will be floating but have floors underwater including an underwater observation area, and a 80 ft tunnel leading to the surface of the lake. Information on 'under the lake' is not being released at this time as it will be connected with a secure facility and underground evacuation point. It will be an immense project and take some time to finish. The zigauraut will also grow food including fruit trees etc.. there will also be a number of docks for small boats and along the side a small runway / parade ground and/or helicopter landing pads. There will be both housing, control rooms and confernce and court rooms available, including atleast one large chamber in the main zigauraut. The areas under the zigauraut may be used for a number of purposes. Heating and cooling and environmental controls will utilize the lake. Power for the structure will attempt to be done by solar stations and small tidal generators, with a power link from underground as well. A very expensive project, but it should proove to be a lasting fixture in ICCD. The Structure will both be low density and bowl shaped to optimize it's floatation capacity also 80ft collums will give extra ground support, it truely isn't floating but can float if the collumns broke.

Urcea is more than welcome to take part in the Court.

Answer me this. How can one call this a court if there are no laws to interpret? This organization sadly has no right in a countries affairs. It also has no political foundation to stand upon.

ICCD's while having codified law is primarily a moral law state. That is judges make their own decisions based upon their opinion of the best outcome, not upon retribution or punishment, but upon facilitating the best result from the inquisition and facts reveiled as well as interpretation of the results of any actions by the Judicature. In ICCD laws can be appealed to the higher court, which ends with the Emperor's Court. The Emperor's decision can be overturned by the Seym or Primus, the Seym is basically the governmental administration, with the Primus being an ethics commisioner popularly elected a long with the Imperial executive council, all of them popularly hold votes of the public, and all votes always count and can be changed at any time. Thus popular sentiment is accounted for at all times through the voting system of the executive council that acts as an ethics board and chancellory that can veto government decisions on popular or ethical grounds, and call hearings to divulge public information on the reasoning of government actions.

IN that respect ICCD does not have to follow codified laws, but instead uses moral law. Laws that exist are reasons to respond a certain way, and in general they are to be followed but can be overturned, instead of being based on a charter. The laws are moral guidance. Mostly Dian law is administrative law. But it does set guidelines for which types of cases have to be recorded at a certain level of administration. Minor issues can be totally dismissed with things like murder needing to be recorded at a certain level atleast in summation.

OOC: Basically until law is codified like in ancient earth example with hammurabi's laws etc.. kings made the decisions or tribal chiefs ect.. based on cultural or political reasons, unless other people in tribes ect.. made the decisions. History of laws is various, people may have had to seek justice themselves instead of a structured administration of justice. but no law doesn't need to be codified even today there are unwritten conventions, in various courts. In essence supreme courts that can overturn laws are sovereign courts that is why for instance the supreme court of the united states sees itself as the higher branch of government. law doesn't need to be written to be law.


-------
***For more information on the Dian justice system see the factbook link

While codified and legislated laws do exist in ICCD, they are seen as a gauge to 'what should be done' to avoid breach of the public peace. Since it is based on determination of the 'people' vested with public order, the administrative judicature or the justicary judicature, it is not dependant on the legislated law. But that law in most cases was supported by people of great public interest, so it usually is inplace for a good reason. Determination of finding is circumstantial in all cases and pro socio bono, in the public interest.


As far as the International Court proposed I don't see why moral law and the international public interest of those members couldn't also be taken into account as a guiding force.

In principle the Republic of Diranadium supports the establishment of a court of this sort, however it deprecates in the strongest possible terms the Court as currently described for the following reasons

1. The Court has not been established pursuant to an international conference of interested states who would negotiate a treaty (statute) for the Court's establishment.

2. Whilst the Republic of Diranadium is willing to allow that some of crimes of serious international concern in respect of which the court may exercise jurisdiction may well be crimes of universal jurisdiction, in the absence of an international agreement mentioned in 1, the Court does not have a basis or standing in International Law and is not an international court. Rather the Court involves a purported exercise of universal jurisdiction by a single state.

3. It is suggested that the Court will exercise jurisdiction over nationals of states which have not agreed that their citizens may be subject to its jurisdiction. Therefore the court's claimed jurisdiction rationae personae will be in breach of international law.

4. As for the courts claimed jurisdiction ratione materiae, the crimes in respect of which the court purports to exercise jurisdiction are insufficiently clearly defined and therefore any purported exercise of such jurisdiction is in breach of the principle nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege.

Yours etc.

Pendantius Verlex
Attorney General
The Republic of Dirandium

In principle the Republic of Diranadium supports the establishment of a court of this sort, however it deprecates in the strongest possible terms the Court as currently described for the following reasons

1. The Court has not been established pursuant to an international conference of interested states who would negotiate a treaty (statute) for the Court's establishment.

2. Whilst the Republic of Diranadium is willing to allow that some of crimes of serious international concern in respect of which the court may exercise jurisdiction may well be crimes of universal jurisdiction, in the absence of an international agreement mentioned in 1, the Court does not have a basis or standing in International Law and is not an international court. Rather the Court involves a purported exercise of universal jurisdiction by a single state.

3. It is suggested that the Court will exercise jurisdiction over nationals of states which have not agreed that their citizens may be subject to its jurisdiction. Therefore the court's claimed jurisdiction rationae personae will be in breach of international law.

4. As for the courts claimed jurisdiction ratione materiae, the crimes in respect of which the court purports to exercise jurisdiction are insufficiently clearly defined and therefore any purported exercise of such jurisdiction is in breach of the principle nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege.

Yours etc.

Pendantius Verlex
Attorney General
The Republic of Dirandium


Well if you have issues or proposed statutes raise them. To be totally clear if ICCD was that one state mentioned that is not necisarily the case. ICCD just proposed that trial members such as ICCD be able to hear appeals to their own court systems, on the trial basis until accension. All members would have that same option to hear appeals from the court should they disagree with the verdict or methods of the trial.

As for who acceeds. The court would be done rather then just whatever we feel like doing. It would be an organized medium to bring justice that is put to the court, in way of issueing summons or placing warrents for arrest or other deemed measures, court orders.

Without the court ratione materiae would not be existing in a state exercising it's own desire free from a court anyway because ratione materiae only exists when recognized.
As for grounds be it diplomatic courtesies that generally exist or specific treaties or laws outlining ratione materiae. If you have grounds where ratione materiae should exist for the purpose of the court by all means express them.

ICCD is willing to host an ongoing conference for any interested parties and invites other bodies to do so as well.

ICCD has little to offer for the statute other than trial membership in the court with appeals being hearable by any court that makes their State Courts open to appeal. On agreement of both the appellant and the court.
Establishing venues that the court can be heard at, by all means not a requirement as any place could be used for hearing, ICCD mearly extended to offer a place for the court to have a permanent housing.

Frankly the absence of standing is slightly offensive, where any two or more states determine international actions they very much have standing internationally. As far as that extending beyond signatories it would be an act of war, two different things. While the victor in a war will usually right their rights and delegate the laws of the offender in absence of any other statutes or agreements that state an occupation or otherwise is suppose to occur in a specific way.

As for rationae personae in breach of international law, what international law are you citing?

Just currious -----------------

As far as a conference feel open to use this as a medium, and you are fully welcome to travel to ICCD or if you would like to host a meeting we are willing to to discus this matter by sending a representative from the L.O.

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;12866831']Well if you have issues or proposed statutes raise them. To be totally clear if ICCD was that one state mentioned that is not necisarily the case. ICCD just proposed that trial members such as ICCD be able to hear appeals to their own court systems, on the trial basis until accension. All members would have that same option to hear appeals from the court should they disagree with the verdict or methods of the trial.

As for who acceeds. The court would be done rather then just whatever we feel like doing. It would be an organized medium to bring justice that is put to the court, in way of issueing summons or placing warrents for arrest or other deemed measures, court orders.

Without the court ratione materiae would not be existing in a state exercising it's own desire free from a court anyway because ratione materiae only exists when recognized.
As for grounds be it diplomatic courtesies that generally exist or specific treaties or laws outlining ratione materiae. If you have grounds where ratione materiae should exist for the purpose of the court by all means express them.

ICCD is willing to host an ongoing conference for any interested parties and invites other bodies to do so as well.

ICCD has little to offer for the statute other than trial membership in the court with appeals being hearable by any court that makes their State Courts open to appeal. On agreement of both the appellant and the court.
Establishing venues that the court can be heard at, by all means not a requirement as any place could be used for hearing, ICCD mearly extended to offer a place for the court to have a permanent housing.

Frankly the absence of standing is slightly offensive, where any two or more states determine international actions they very much have standing internationally. As far as that extending beyond signatories it would be an act of war, two different things. While the victor in a war will usually right their rights and delegate the laws of the offender in absence of any other statutes or agreements that state an occupation or otherwise is suppose to occur in a specific way.

As for rationae personae in breach of international law, what international law are you citing?

Just currious -----------------

As far as a conference feel open to use this as a medium, and you are fully welcome to travel to ICCD or if you would like to host a meeting we are willing to to discus this matter by sending a representative from the L.O.


His excellency, the ambassador at large for the Republic of Diranadium presents his compliments.

Our people at the ministry of legal knowledge and scholarship have spent some time considering your message. The general consensus of this cadre of extremely intelligent officials was that it was difficult to follow a good deal of it.

At a separate meeting of our intermediate logistics council, it was decided that as a matter of national policy, Diranadium would not support the Court if it were to be located in Lacus Prae. Diplomatic convention dictates that I am not able to supply precise particulars of the reasoning underlying the adoption of this policy, however it is not unconnected with calls [cf http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=496114 ] for attacks on innocent civilians, as distinct from military targets, contrary to international law, and in particular the laws of war.

Diranadium's official policy, is that the Court, if established, must be located in a state which itself has an exemplary record on aforementioned matters, and has a history of fairdealing and even handedness.

Regarding your concerns: That was ages ago, I don't think one person from that government is still left alive. From my history classes I don't recall any attacks actually taking place conducted by ICCD. You are woefully mistaken of the context of that occurance as well. TPF had already conducted acts that were construed to be acts of war against ICCD at the time, with reckless disregard for the general population of ICCD.

In actuality it was a operation to discover who might be so dispicable as to conduct those types of attacks against TPF not actually conduct them. If you have information to the contrary please do infom the historians but that is how it appeared in the book I just read.

"The Demons of TPF and ICCD's Lightbringing, knowledge to the uncouth"

On that same note we fully encourage seperate court buildings that would enable regional conveinence, ICCD actually recommends multiple court locations to help manage multiple concerns not the least which is functional capacity and international notice and equality, not to mention dupillication of records.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/stevid.jpg
Official Response From the Stevidian Imperial Foreign and Commonwealth Office

The Holy Empire if Stevid, like the many other fellow nations here, fully condemns this "court" will not recognise or adhere to any of its rulings. Stevidian and Imperial citizens will not fall under its duristictions or rulings. Any one arrested on behalf of this court will be freed and then tried or freed in an Imperial court.

Stevidian Imperial sovereignty will not be breached by this ridiculous court. Stevid's policy on this court is the same as every other international court in existance today. We will not be a member of the court and never shall be. We shall promote the abolishment of this court and support other countries that follow our suite.

That is an option under the court system I've proposed.

They didn't, he only hijacked our communications system. Regrettably.

Now you've done it. We vehemently oppose this decision. You cannot wrongfully imprison our citizens just because of their nationality. Just because one now dead man "founded" some court does not mean you can discriminate against our people.

~Kenneth Sommers
CEO, The Extremely Sovereign Nation of VISA Corp

http://usera.imagecave.com/CaptainDeath/VariousShazbotdom/Government-Seal.gif
FROM THE OFFICE OF THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFIARS
MR LARRY WILLIAMS
If the Supreme Emperor of the Shazbotdom Empire wishes to have all people from this VISA Corporation imprisoned within our territory, then it shall be done. We see them as spies trying to get intel about our methods of not only imprisoning people, but how we extract information from criminals and this cannot be allowed. At least that is what is going on the official arrest warrant that has been issued for all people associated with VISA Corp.

I, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, do not make the laws, I only pass on the news of the laws to those who the law effects, be it people within the Shazbotdom Empire, or the International Community. If you have any problems with this new law, then direct your inquiries to the Office of the Supreme Emperor, Lawmaking Division.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/kirav.jpg

Kiravian Empire

Permissum Astrum Subleuco

Imperial Secriat of Justice

The Kiravian Empire now recognizes, endorses, and will lend its full support to this court and its rulings.

Also,
ICCD-Intracircumcordei]The structure is a mixed design, it will include aquaculture, fish pools, a zigauraout like structure with two smaller zigaurats. The structure will be floating but have floors underwater including an underwater observation area, and a 80 ft tunnel leading to the surface of the lake. Information on 'under the lake' is not being released at this time as it will be connected with a secure facility and underground evacuation point. It will be an immense project and take some time to finish. The zigauraut will also grow food including fruit trees etc.. there will also be a number of docks for small boats and along the side a small runway / parade ground and/or helicopter landing pads. There will be both housing, control rooms and confernce and court rooms available, including atleast one large chamber in the main zigauraut. The areas under the zigauraut may be used for a number of purposes. Heating and cooling and environmental controls will utilize the lake. Power for the structure will attempt to be done by solar stations and small tidal generators, with a power link from underground as well. A very expensive project, but it should proove to be a lasting fixture in ICCD. The Structure will both be low density and bowl shaped to optimize it's floatation capacity also 80ft collums will give extra ground support, it truely isn't floating but can float if the collumns broke.

We would like to assist in the construction of this structure. Our Empire has advanced knowledge of architectural engineering and materials science. May we send a team of architects, engineers, and others to aid in this endeavour?

We are willing to try this court out (again). However, there are clearly going to be a gigantic amount of hurdles. Clearly we need to collaborate with ICCD in order to get this working.

~Kenworth L. Stevens
Director, Foreign Affairs

The Republic of One World Alliance would like to officially establish its entertainment of the possible membership to such a court.

However, I am not hesitant in making it known that there are many within the Republic who view this court with much suspicion.


Perhaps the founder of the court, and this forum for that matter, could quell the fears of my people, and other nations that have voiced their concerns over the court?


-His Excellency, Chancellor Nicolae Augustus of the Republic of One World Alliance

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/kirav.jpg

Kiravian Empire

Permissum Astrum Subleuco

Imperial Secriat of Justice

The Kiravian Empire now recognizes, endorses, and will lend its full support to this court and its rulings.

Also,


We would like to assist in the construction of this structure. Our Empire has advanced knowledge of architectural engineering and materials science. May we send a team of architects, engineers, and others to aid in this endeavour?


We are willing to collaborate, if you send those interested to Lacus Prae they will be received with open arms to collaborate on this building.

feel open to keep posting in this thread or start others as required. Since the topic title said (cancled) I started a new thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12873378#post12873378

The Empire does not recognize the authority of this body nor any other international body or organization that claims to assert any right upon territory of the Empire. Any attempt by any nation to bring the Empire to this organization will be denied. Any attempts to violate the sovereignty of the Empire will be promptly and fiercely fought.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs

ICCD fully supports Layarteb in their proclaimation. I do think it is important for The Layarteb Empire to take part in the IJC so that no one else tries to take part using their name or claiming to be an official representative. If we can lend any support to the Layarteb Empire in it's needs to protect itself let us know.

The Empire always appreciate diplomatic support from afar. All international organizations do is impede upon the sovereignty of good and just nations while failing to fulfill their mandates. Organizations that seek to eliminate world hunger only create more. Organizations that seek to stop genocide turn their backs whenever a bullet falls on them. Organizations that seek to unify countries seek only to expand their own power. The Empire is a sovereign nation that cannot be hindered by international organizations that lack power, credibility, and resolve. The Empire is a semi-isolationist country that seeks only its own iniatives. We defend ourselves and, when necessary, call upon others for assistance but never demand help. Often the Empire will give help but ask for little in return except the bodies of our fallen. The Empire believes that every nation has a right to its own sovereignty and its domestic agenda and policies need not be dictated from externally. This is why we oppose this organization, despite its intended good. It is, for the same reason, that we oppose the IJC.

Granted but I think you may misunderstand the IJC is a committee composed of willing members with no sovereign powers exisiting at the IJC it cannot enforce judgements only render opinions. The purpose of the organization is to foster communication in good faith, and is wholely based on mutual acceptance. The primary ongoing duty of members is to keep records of interest to their courts. There is no central organization other than those members who self proclaim assosiation with the court. Sovereginty and the ability to enforce any opinions remains solely with the members domestic court should it exist. Appeals may be made to any other members domestic courts if those courts allow appeal - in that respect standing from a private global organization.

It is a open membership organization that is founded to enable granting of legal opinion from multiple states backgrounds. Sovereignty is not altered by membership, it is not surrendered. It does not constitute a confederacy of states creating a state union it is an association or Global Judiciary Association taking place in a court setting.

This is essentially a political forum, but not political, instead legal, but with some structure.

The IJC concept is not a sovereign organization but a medium and forum of sovereigns. There is no organization or leader on an ongoing basis, each sovereign state is welcome to have their own chapter of the organization and run it the way they would like, outside the core concepts of how the chapters come to meet, and general advice to the way the IJC should be assembled, which even in the explanation is not universal, as whoever propositions the case in the IJC format.

One task of each IJC member is to keep on record other IJC members their contacts etc.. this can be far as having shared court chapters where multiple states work from the same location.

The republic of Diranadium notes that there are now two proposals running. First the Court of War proposal; Second what ICCD is pleased to refer to as the ICJ. The ICCD speaks of the ICJ as if it is already in existence. What has happened to the Court of War proposal? Has it been withdrawn?

The republic of Diranadium remains somewhat uneasy at ICCD's involvement in this matter. We remain to be convinced that the proposal is a coherent one. It remains unclear as to what precisely is the purported jurisdiction of the court in respect to nationals of non-members and the crimes with which the court will be concerned remain undefined.

It may be necessry to formulate a UN resolution in connection with this matter to ensure that state sovereignty is properly protected as a matter of law, and prohibiting participation of UN states in an organisation which unilaterally purports to gather powers unto itself which conflict with state sovereignty and proposes a criminal process which at this point appears inconistent with UN resolutions dealing with fair trial rights.

*Begin transmission*

The Empire of Pro Patria Puritania sees this 'court' as a way of bending other nations to its will. Any action taken against our citizens will be considered an act of war. Anyone sentenced by this court is welcome to seek refuge within our borders.

- Emperor Julius Heide
- Joseph Creutzfeldt, Minister of Foreign Affairs

*End transmission*

The republic of Diranadium notes that there are now two proposals running. First the Court of War proposal; Second what ICCD is pleased to refer to as the ICJ. The ICCD speaks of the ICJ as if it is already in existence. What has happened to the Court of War proposal? Has it been withdrawn?

The republic of Diranadium remains somewhat uneasy at ICCD's involvement in this matter. We remain to be convinced that the proposal is a coherent one. It remains unclear as to what precisely is the purported jurisdiction of the court in respect to nationals of non-members and the crimes with which the court will be concerned remain undefined.

It may be necessry to formulate a UN resolution in connection with this matter to ensure that state sovereignty is properly protected as a matter of law, and prohibiting participation of UN states in an organisation which unilaterally purports to gather powers unto itself which conflict with state sovereignty and proposes a criminal process which at this point appears inconistent with UN resolutions dealing with fair trial rights.


Both Proposals are very much still alive. ICCD's IJC court is a global legal forum where consensus on the legal stance of members can be viewed. Also it can be a preliminary court for maters of global importance where each court might hold it's own trial regardless or would like to be involved in a trial but otherwise would not be due to jurisdictional issues. Matters that exist within the jurisdication of members may be effective if they were acceeded or refered back to the actual jurisdicational court. That would be domestic juridiction and the ruling of the court would not have direct powers of inforcement only indirect enforcement capacities by the members of the court on an individual basis, outside of the court. That being the court can hear matters regarding anywhere, as all matter effect all jurisdictions by way of cause and effect. While a physical occurance may only occur in one jurisdiction the legal issues surrounding the occurance, or the moral obligations may extend to member jurisdictions. So while the court may 'hear' any case brought to the court by a member the IJC cannot itself enforce the opinion of the IJC only note it and make the opinion available to members. Members domestic court systems and jurisdiction and legal systems may then if they agree to it use the opinion of the IJC in a domestic trial or on their choice rule that their Justice's Opinion in the case be seen as a 'special' court. This removes the base requirement of multiple trials occuring for the same global issue. Different Justices/Grand Jury members may have different opinions each of these would be recorded, none having more 'say' than any other opinion. Nation A B C D E F may all have the same opinion while G H I J K have a different opinion. Just because there is a majority of the first group does not make it 'more right' than the second group. It is just that each group may have it's own opinion, for the record.

Enforcement of an opinion and/or verdict is not handled by the IJC but there are no restrictions inhibiting any member from enforcing the IJC's findings, but it does so solely of it's own discretion and the IJC would not be affiliated with that decision.


Anything brought to the court can be heard, there is no predefined 'crimes' and it is not a 'criminal court' it is a court of hearing, meaning any calls for opinion of justice on a legal basis.

To restate it is a free assosiation of states based upon equal recognition to inquisition, and no sovereignty is granted to the court nor is any sovereignty removed from members of the court.

Hopefully this explanation clears up any uncertainties you have in regard to ICCD's vision of the IJC. The name may also be changed to Inter-Judiciary Court.

As for the Court of War ICCD still is open to the idea should there be other interest as membership in one does not bar membership in the other.

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;12873608']Granted but I think you may misunderstand the IJC is a committee composed of willing members with no sovereign powers exisiting at the IJC it cannot enforce judgements only render opinions. The purpose of the organization is to foster communication in good faith, and is wholely based on mutual acceptance. The primary ongoing duty of members is to keep records of interest to their courts. There is no central organization other than those members who self proclaim assosiation with the court. Sovereginty and the ability to enforce any opinions remains solely with the members domestic court should it exist. Appeals may be made to any other members domestic courts if those courts allow appeal - in that respect standing from a private global organization.

It is a open membership organization that is founded to enable granting of legal opinion from multiple states backgrounds. Sovereignty is not altered by membership, it is not surrendered. It does not constitute a confederacy of states creating a state union it is an association or Global Judiciary Association taking place in a court setting.

This is essentially a political forum, but not political, instead legal, but with some structure.

The IJC concept is not a sovereign organization but a medium and forum of sovereigns. There is no organization or leader on an ongoing basis, each sovereign state is welcome to have their own chapter of the organization and run it the way they would like, outside the core concepts of how the chapters come to meet, and general advice to the way the IJC should be assembled, which even in the explanation is not universal, as whoever propositions the case in the IJC format.

One task of each IJC member is to keep on record other IJC members their contacts etc.. this can be far as having shared court chapters where multiple states work from the same location.

Doctrine within the Empire states that no other law but our own can be enforced within our borders, rendering any judgement by the IJC automatically moot. Any legal issues with the Empire or its nationals must be conducted as a direct relationship with the Ministry of Justice and not through an international body, regardless of its charter.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs
The Minister of Justice

So okay. Let's do this.

(1) Make a committee that writes laws about war crimes.

(2) Have this court judge based on those laws.

Sound okay?

So okay. Let's do this.

(1) Make a committee that writes laws about war crimes.

(2) Have this court judge based on those laws.

Sound okay?

OOC: You should form a viable charter.

OOC: You should form a viable charter.

OOC: I guess that's what I'm suggesting the Committee writes.

Doctrine within the Empire states that no other law but our own can be enforced within our borders, rendering any judgement by the IJC automatically moot. Any legal issues with the Empire or its nationals must be conducted as a direct relationship with the Ministry of Justice and not through an international body, regardless of its charter.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs
The Minister of Justice


As stated judgements are opinions - only members themselves seperate from the court have any capacity to enforce. The IJC does not determine enforcement it only renders opinon. That is your countries choice, but it does not protect or make you immune to non IJC actions against your nation for your acts. Your country is accountable for it's acts, and you are not exclusive in your jurisdiction if there is another claim to it. The IJC does not claim jurisdiction more than legal and moral jurisdiction without limitation. But the IJC does not have any powers of enforcement. If the IJC members would like to give legal opinions on your countries acts, their citizens or otherwise they will, much like if ICCD would like to issue legal opinions of your country, it's citizens or otherwise it will. The difference between the IJC and ICCD is that the IJC doesn't have an executive arms attached to it that is there to enforce court orders, ICCD on the other hand does.

For you to claim exclusive moral jurisdiction is a false sentiment, and ICCD itself does not adhere because we as humans have a mutual moral responsibility to one another, atleast in Dian law this is true. So to clarify we fully understand you have your claims of jurisdiction. On matter of the IJC it should be no organizational threat to you unless you see opinion as a threat. I can only recommend that you take part in the IJC to insure that your opinion on matters that pertain to you is represented by your member representative.

Jurisdiction is not a concern of the IJC as it does not enforce it's findings as a component of the IJC there are no jurisdictional lines in the IJC it is a global organization. Regardless of whether you participate or not your self recognized jurisdiction may fall within the scope of IJC opinions. While opinion can be seen as contrary to your wishes the IJC beleive in freespeach and allowance to give opinion and advice on any given subject as far as individual members judiciary - justice system is concerned.

The Logothe's office is deeply upset if you on the basis of the organization are not in agreement with it's principles. As for any members internal justice choices that would be entirely up to them, internal courts such as your justice system would have the individual choice to hear appeals from the court or to render opinion of the court or members of the court as having effect in your jurisdiction, obviously.

ICCD for one will allow appeal of the IJC into the Dian Judicature, to an Imperial Justisar.

The IJC is not a legislative committee it renders opinion, not law within itself. IJC members are welcome to take IJC opinon to their courts or legislative channels as they exist but it is not a component of the IJC. Information on record of the IJC comes from two sources, IJC hearings and hearings appealed to a non IJC court where records were supplied on rendering of the appeal body; done for informational purposes.

OOC: I guess that's what I'm suggesting the Committee writes.

I think in addition to 'war crimes' it may help to have a general 'laws of war' for the Court of War


Some warcrimes might be:

intentional injury whether mental or physical which may constitute torture or inhumane treatment
Pillaging - destruction and appropriation of property without consent
conscription of POW under threat
non consensual deportation or confinement without trial
use of hostages or civilian shields
attacks targeting civilians, humanitarians and potentially 'peacekeepers'
killing those who surrender
use of a flag of truce in guise
settlement in an occupied zone
use of 'poison'
Using child soldiers
'Summary execution'
Sexual Offences -Rape, slavery, forced prostitution or forced pregnancy

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;12873276']We are willing to collaborate, if you send those interested to Lacus Prae they will be received with open arms to collaborate on this building.

Thank you. Our shuttle planes will transport the personnel immediately.