NationStates Jolt Archive

First off, please try to keep the "Superdreadnoughts are godmodes!" comments out of this thread and take them elsewhere.

Now for my question:
Alright, so I've been around on NS since mid-to late March as you can probably tell. The one thing that evades me is just how big does my defense budget have to be to actually support an SD? I know quite a few storefronts sell them very cheaply (some even less than 200 Bil. USD), but the cost of maintaining them is a pain in the ass. Seeing as I have a nation with just a little less than 500 million people, however my defense budget (http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/main.aspx) is almost 2 Trillion. I'm pretty sure I'd be able to support one economically, but I'm a little concerned about the amount of people it would take.

What do you NSers say, is my nation in a position where it could aquire and maintain a SD in addition to my navy, yay or nay?

A question about big boats
To answer the implied question, they're called 'ships'. :D

[OOC: What kills you in terms of using a SD is not the ship itself, but the escort fleet. With that said, you could probably support a small SD and its fleet fairly easily.]

[OOC: What kills you in terms of using a SD is not the ship itself, but the escort fleet. With that said, you could probably support a small SD and its fleet fairly easily.]

Yeah, that also raises another question, generally how big is the escort fleet?

Yeah, that also raises another question, generally how big is the escort fleet?

[OOC: Pretty large. You want to protect your SD like current nations protect their aircraft carriers. As for actual numbers, that depends on individual ship-class strength.]

i think you'd be able to support one pretty well

[OOC: Pretty large. You want to protect your SD like current nations protect their aircraft carriers. As for actual numbers, that depends on individual ship-class strength.]

Yeah that makes sense. So how big would you say it would be compared to a carrier's escort if they both use the same kind of ships. Would you say around 2 or 3 times as great?

I have no practical experience with superdreadnoughts but it appears that whenever a supercapital vessel is deployed the accompanying escort fleet often numbers in the hundreds if not the thousands.

Yeah that makes sense. So how big would you say it would be compared to a carrier's escort if they both use the same kind of ships. Would you say around 2 or 3 times as great?

[OOC: Yeah, that sounds about right, if you're talking about a normal sized carrier. Some people have carriers that can carry an ungodly amount of planes.]

I have no practical experience with superdreadnoughts but it appears that whenever a supercapital vessel is deployed the accompanying escort fleet often numbers in the hundreds if not the thousands.

[OOC: Well, alot of the nations using SD's are massive, and have massive SD's, and so can afford massive escort fleets to go with them.]

personally
I think that SDs are fesible.... but illogical
The tasks it can do can easily be carried out by numerous smaller ships that pose a small target. I just keep with the normal carrier group
also.... how do carriers carry 1,000s of fighters.... its godmodding and yet people do it

personally
I think that SDs are fesible.... but illogical
The tasks it can do can easily be carried out by numerous smaller ships that pose a small target. I just keep with the normal carrier group
also.... how do carriers carry 1,000s of fighters.... its godmodding and yet people do it

[OOC: Personally, the LFA has a small number of SD's to deal with other SD's, but in terms of overall deployment, I agree with you. I can have dozens of parts malfunctions in a fleet and be FINE. A part breaks on an SD and a whole war can be lost.]

[OOC: Yeah, that sounds about right, if you're talking about a normal sized carrier. Some people have carriers that can carry an ungodly amount of planes.]

By normal sized, I'm assuming you mean around Nimitz Class or a little larger.

I have no practical experience with superdreadnoughts but it appears that whenever a supercapital vessel is deployed the accompanying escort fleet often numbers in the hundreds if not the thousands.

Well I'd assume that when they have them in the thousands either a) they have a lot of small, low-powered vessels versus fewer more powerful vessels or b) it's a really big and important ship (bigger than normal, like Questers's Supercapital) and therefore needs extra protection.

By normal sized, I'm assuming you mean around Nimitz Class or a little larger.

[OOC: Yeah, that's what I meant. 3-4 times the number of ships you use to protect that should be good to cover a medium SD.]

personally
I think that SDs are fesible.... but illogical
The tasks it can do can easily be carried out by numerous smaller ships that pose a small target. I just keep with the normal carrier group

Yes, you're forgetting the psychological aspect of it here, SDs are more intimidating and impressive. Furthermore, it's probably easier and/or more efficient to use an SD than a bunch of tiny little ships to carry out a big task.

also.... how do carriers carry 1,000s of fighters.... its godmodding and yet people do it

Whoa, who's done that? That's like a floating airport.

Whoa, who's done that? That's like a floating airport.

I don't know of anyone who has used something THAT big, but I do know that some people have highly developed their carrier fleets.

I don't know of anyone who has used something THAT big, but I do know that some people have highly developed their carrier fleets.

Like those of Pudu, DMG, and Transylvania? The Intrepid, Emperor, and Champion carriers are all bigger than Nimitz, but they're not ridiculously huge.

Well, in any case, I'm pretty sure I have the resources to put together an escort fleet for an SD, I guess the two big questions are will I be able to economically support with the rest of my navy (instead of my navy just being the SD and its escort), and do I actually have enough people to crew the ships necessary?

You should also consider what role it will fulfill in your fleet.

Like those of Pudu, DMG, and Transylvania? The Intrepid, Emperor, and Champion carriers are all bigger than Nimitz, but they're not ridiculously huge.

Well, in any case, I'm pretty sure I have the resources to put together an escort fleet for an SD, I guess the two big questions are will I be able to economically support it, and do I actually have enough people to crew the ships?

[OOC: Yeah, those people. I was thinking of DMG specifically.

In terms of manpower, I need to know a little about how your nation is set up. Do you have like, a draft? Did you just have a civil war? Etc. If you run a fairly "normal" capitalistic and stable nation, you're fine.]

I don't know of anyone who has used something THAT big, but I do know that some people have highly developed their carrier fleets.

Avisron, TGs >>.

Siriusa, you could definately support a superdreadnought, but not a ludicris number, say perhaps hundreds of SD's which some NSers claim to be able to support.

I think Alacea could support a few, her military budget is excess of 1.2 trillion (dinky, I know) and its main military branch is the navy...

This raises the question why no RL nations us SD's?

Avisron, TGs >>.

Siriusa, you could definately support a superdreadnought, but not a ludicris number, say perhaps hundreds of SD's which some NSers claim to be able to support.

I think Alacea could support a few, her military budget is excess of 1.2 trillion (dinky, I know) and its main military branch is the navy...

This raises the question why no RL nations us SD's?

Because unlike most people on NS, real life naval strategists have realized that the age of battleships came to a close with the proliferation of aircraft carriers and antiship missiles. =p

That and no harbor in the world could support an NS SD, I don't think.

Avisron, TGs >>.

I'm on it.

This raises the question why no RL nations us SD's?

Because of the various treaties signed throughout the years to try to prevent arms races.

Avisron, TGs >>.

Siriusa, you could definately support a superdreadnought, but not a ludicris number, say perhaps hundreds of SD's which some NSers claim to be able to support.

I think Alacea could support a few, her military budget is excess of 1.2 trillion (dinky, I know) and its main military branch is the navy...

This raises the question why no RL nations us SD's?

Well I wasn't about to go out and buy 100 SDs, but thanks for the warning :p


And I assume no real nations use them because there's no real need for them, whereas on NS war is declared at the drop of a hat daily.

Because unlike most people on NS, real life naval strategists have realized that the age of battleships came to a close with the proliferation of aircraft carriers and antiship missiles. =p

That and no harbor in the world could support an NS SD, I don't think.

Modern day anti-shipping missiles couldn't damage an Iowa, much less an SD. Furthermore, modern-day oil tankers are approaching kilometer lengths, so I don't see why an SD would be any different.

Because unlike most people on NS, real life naval strategists have realized that the age of battleships came to a close with the proliferation of aircraft carriers and antiship missiles. =p

That and no harbor in the world could support an NS SD, I don't think.

I think there are a FEW harbours that may be able to take a "light" SD if there is such a thing. Depends hwo you define it tho - definetly not anything like what we produce.

The largest ship in the world was 550~m I think, nowhere near a klick.

I should thikn you could buy one Siriusa, but I wouldn't see the point at your size. It would be vastly more efficient to use an aircraft carrier fleet. The great and large navies of NS use SDs as their lines of battle, its essentially pointless to operate just a single one.

If you're interested, my Nagato class will be up for export possibly tommorow, clocking in at slightly smaller than Doujin I'd say its perhaps the most competent of its kind on the market... I know a certain person who would disagree, but there you go.

AN, I confirmed those encaptorps btw.

I am currently designing an SDN and it will be around the 1km mark I won't say anymore but it will be known as the "Phoenix Class SDN". ;)

Modern day anti-shipping missiles couldn't damage an Iowa, much less an SD. Furthermore, modern-day oil tankers are approaching kilometer lengths, so I don't see why an SD would be any different.

Modern-day antiship missiles would easily sink an Iowa, because they would not hit it in the belt, where the armor is thickest, but in the deck and superstructure. The deck isn't armored as much as the belt of a battleship, and the superstructure can't really be armored at all. The Germans demonstrated this quite clearly during World War II with the Fritz-X, which was able to take out a modern battleship of the time easily.

The only reason most light antiship missiles arn't effective against an armored vessel is the lack of an armor piercing cap, which is left off only because no one really armors their ships anymore due to the previous reasons.

Also, the construction methods of an oil tanker are rather different from that of a battleship, so the comparison can't be really made. The issue with SDs as far as size goes with regards to real life harbors is the amount of water they draw.

The main reason to use an SD on NS is if you really like shiny things, which is as good a motivation as any. :)

edit: Roger that, Questers. If you keep producing more, Axis Nova will buy 'em all-- I'm currently creating the world's largest naval minefield off the Numonican coast =p

Because unlike most people on NS, real life naval strategists have realized that the age of battleships came to a close with the proliferation of aircraft carriers and antiship missiles. =p

That and no harbor in the world could support an NS SD, I don't think.

yup :) NS is about having fun and we like our overly large battles' nothing says slug fest like a navy throw down with huge ships; plus SD's are a nice penis extension thats why we like them.

Into the cost of an ILW (Improbably Large Warship, my blanket name for anything that's bigger than about 750,000 metric tons) -- which can be quite expensive, between $50 and $1000 billion, with maintenance costs of up to $50 billion a year -- one also has to figure the costs of its escorts. Generally, three types of escorts are required for your ILW: anti-surface, anti-submarine, and anti-aircraft (ADVs). To these roles you may assign cruisers, destroyers, frigates, corvettes, gunboats, submergibles, or anything else you fancy. Nonetheless, quite a few of them will be required; an ILW may need one or two hundred escorts at the minimum to prevent it from being totally vulnerable, unless I'm totally batshit.

Well the problem is, is being overwhelmed. You could escort a 500,000kt battleship with 50 Type 45's all kitted out with Aster 15 and 30. In the end all I have to do is launch more missiles than you have SAMs and you're extremely vulnerable. Thats the REAL essense of missile spam for the real "masters" of NS warfare - simply just overwhelming your enemy with missiles is enough to assure victory. Of course, this is lame RP, but there you go.

This is, however, assuming you have enough missiles to launch that many, which will either mean alot of SSGNs or your own big ships with lots of missiles, which is exactly what the opponent has. The key skill in NS fleet warfare is defending your fleet sufficiently so that it can retaliate and managing that retaliatory strike better than the enemy did his opening. That's why I designed the Mogami class air defence cruiser ^_^

I on the other hand don't like naval battles so I just try to eliminate everything as fast as possible :p

yes I think I stated that wrong..... I ment that several carriers launched 1,000s of fighters....a nimitz carries around 80 so that means that it has to be at least 10x bigger than a nimitz.....

anyway I dont support the sued of SDs... I do however endorse the use of a MOB (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1281531.html?page=1) It is essentially the same thing.... just slower I think

Yes, you're forgetting the psychological aspect of it here, SDs are more intimidating and impressive. Furthermore, it's probably easier and/or more efficient to use an SD than a bunch of tiny little ships to carry out a big task.


OOC:Ya, the only reason i use SD is because other nations use them, and the fact that I have a single one the same size as Questers Hood. The imtimidation is a HUGE weapon. Imagine a ship that can simply full our charge through most any Modern weapon and blow half your fleet to bits. And generally yes, one SD is more efficient for single tasks than a multitude of small ships.

The Iowa class has 7.5 inch armor, and the superstructure can be destroyed, but that won't sink the ship.

To quote Soviet Fleet Admiral Sergei I. Gorshkov...

"You Americans do not realize what formidable warships you have in these four battleships. We have concluded after careful analysis that these magnificent vessels are in fact the most to be feared in your entire naval arsenal. When engaged in combat we could throw everything we have at those ships and all our firepower would just bounce off or be of little effect. Then we are exhausted, we will detect you coming over the horizon and then you will sink us."

An exocet missile, while more than capable of wrecking a "thin-skin" destroyer and has in the past, would more-or-less bounce off of the deck of an Iowa. Furthermore, though the designs are different, Oil Tankers are long and can dock; it probably could be done in real life, but would have no point.

You can have one super dreadnought, which is fine if you intend on organizing your entire navy around the single SD's battlegroup.
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Or you have have 5 carrier battle groups, and the ability to spread them out to defend your nation, or send some on offense and retain a few for defense.

You decide.






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browse google for the quote of an USN admiral stating a single tomahawk would sink an Iowa class.

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No superstructure means the ship is just a floating coffin and not a warship anymore. With the superstructure gone, you've lost all sensor systems, the bridge, and CIC.

browse google for the quote of an USN admiral stating a single tomahawk would sink an Iowa class.

LOL. How about you browse google and get this quote for us if it really exists?

The antiship variant of the Tomahawk nailing an Iowa in the deck or superstructure would certainly cause major damage and put it out of a fight, but I doubt a single one would sink it outright unless it was an extraordinarily good hit.

Thank you Admiral Axis Nova (Ret.) USN 1977-2002 ;)

Don't thank me, I'm busy thinking up the most sarcastic reply possible to your OOC vanity thread.

Owned