NationStates Jolt Archive

Joint Declaration: Atopian and Skgorrian Military High Command

Following several victorious wars, the Joint Command of the Pact of Iron, in conjunction with the Primo of Atopiana and the Fuhrer of Skgorria, have decided to fix their armed forces at 100 million troops per nation.

This equalisation will not only create a uniform and balanced state of arms in the Pact of Iron, it will enable the Pact's military forces to be the most professional and best equipped on the planet.

This policy will not cover militia units, police units, paramilitary organisations linked to the Party, nor will it cover reserve, cadet, and Home Guard units.

Whilst refusing to go into specifics, Skgorrian High Command announced the following manpower allocation in the new SAF.

The Waffen SS, including the Luft-SS, will maintain its current ratio of being a fifth of the SAF. 20 million men and women will be allocated to this formation and it will remain a purely volunteer force.

The Army will take 50 million men and women, the bulk of them being conscripts with volunteers serving in key roles.

The Air Force will stand at 20 million strong, with a mix of conscripts and volunteers.

The Strategic Rocket forces will remain at 8 million strong, a sign that there will be no decrease in the strength of the Skgorrian strategic weapons arm.

The remaining 2 million will serve with the Skgorrian Coastal Patrol Squad, a small formation only needed to guard the coasts of Skgorria's few colonies as Skgorria is a landlocked country.

"...it will enable the Pact's military forces to be the most professional and best equipped on the planet"

Reports that General Chalcuchima has actually suffered a horrible injury this week follow the Army Commander's reading of news from Tahuantinsuyu's Fascist enemies in which it is claimed that an army proportionately similar to North Korea's will be somehow professional and well-equipped. It is rumored that the General's sides actually split open.

Perhaps by Incan standards equipment provision will not be poor, but then the Empire's soldiers did go into battle with the Fascists armed primarily with pointy sticks. Analysts in the Empire's rebuilding military claim that, "An AKM and a tin helmet do not constitute world-class equipping for a modern soldier, and a lengthy term of conscript service may be debated in terms of professionalism."

In short, Cusco is relieved to see some of its primary enemies resorting to reliance upon shoddy cannon-fodder and straight-leg infantry.


*Sorry if that's not the response you were looking for, and it's supposed to reflect IC animosity, nothing personal! But, since major Cold War opponents maintained forces hardly a quarter that relative size and even the likes of Syria today are way below it and struggling, it seemed justified!*

The make up of the Atopian Military is now as follows:

Atopian Land Forces - 20 million
Atopian Logistics Corps - 60 million
Atopian Air Force - 10 million
Atopian Navy - 7 million
Atopian Space Force - 1,500,000
Atopian Strategic Rocket Force - 1,500,000

This means that the Atopian Military is, at the time of writing, some 4.4% of the population of Atopiana. As time goes on, the Hundred Million Soldier policy will be reviewed with an eye to enlargement as the population continues to grow. For the time being, however, the Atopian Military will stick strictly to the Hundred Million Soldier policy.

Criticism of the equipment standards of the Atopian Military seems ignorant of two facts. For one, the Atopian economy is currently extremely strong, with an annual military budget of US$7,671,590,700,830.42 (7.7 trillion dollars) which provides average funding of US$76,715.91 per soldier. Secondly, the Atopian military has - as our critics can testify - crushed more than one opponent with contemptuous ease thanks to our cutting edge arms manufacturing industry.

EDIT:

OOC: No offence taken - however, the Cold War militaries at their height didn't have a population of over two billion to draw upon... :p

Again, Inkan observers note that $76,000 per soldier is likely to be tens if not hundreds of percent lower than that granted by many governments to their military recruits, and while certainly sufficient to provide basic training, equipment, and support it will not see Atopianan soldiers being able to hold a candle to the world's best militaries. It is likely that, one on one, they will be disadvantaged even against lesser powers such as the USA, and able to prevail only due to superior numbers.

Certainly if the Fascists and the Inka clash a second time, with a rebuilt Inkan army, the typical Quechua warrior will be better trained and motivated, and not much less well equipped.

The standing Imperial Army remains at roughly 0.65% of Tahuantinsuyu's population, using neither pure conscripts nor volunteers but rather drawing from a de facto warrior class who expect nothing else but a military career. At this time the Inka's forces are outnumbered several fold by the Fascist menace, but will continue to grow slowly and expect to maintain higher standards of training in the long-term.

*Sorry, this is likely to drag on a bit so I'll make it small, as if that helps to reduce clutter! If we blew-up the population of the USA at the height of the Cold War, during the conscription era, from 200m+ to 2bln+ its military, if increased in the same proportion, would still be more than four times smaller than yours, and being in the 60s and 70s equipped with relatively less complex weapons and such, and forces reliant upon pretty crude tactics (like carpet bombing and a fondness for full-auto fire- not out of step with some of your own tactics in the Colombian War, I suppose! But not really the, 'best' per se) presumably due to training limits and the difficulties of co-ordinating such large forces with the given resources.

I would worry a little about whether a strong economy and giant well-funded military actually fit together. A productive currency-using economy (I say that because my economy is a cashless one based on an ancient labour obligation) is likely to be dragged down by rampant military spending, but the NS engine maybe doesn't quite deal with that. I suppose that I can't complain about people sticking to what their nation page implies, but I'd like to!
As Fascists I assume that you have a fairly strong command element in your economy?

To qualify, I'm not saying that I don't think you can sustain such large forces, and I'm not even saying that I think Tahuantinsuyu will be able to kick your arse any time soon. I am just inclined to doubt whether you can really give a conscripted man modern training including continuous use of fuel and ammunition in practices, full body armour, co-ordinated combined-arms deployment, world-class intelligence support, missions all around the globe, and sufficient security and living conditions to sustain good moral for less than eighty grand a year.

All right, I'll take it elsewhere if you want :)

[ooc: Yeah, I got to say, $76,000 per soldier is miniscule. Not to mention that even if you could equip them and train them on so little money, you aren't taking into account the acquisition and maintenance of things like ships, aircraft, and vehicles. Take my nation for example; our yearly budget is around 1.5 million per soldier...]

*I could very well be wrong, but I think that Syria was getting by with barely a couple of thousand dollars per soldier in the recent past, because they too have a huge army being as the Ba'ath Party rests much of its power there, but that meant an AK for every man and a doctrine of walking forward en masse, firing from the hip and hoping that Israeli soldiers might perhaps jump around in front of them for a bit before thinking about returning fire.

$76,000 would, then, enable Atopiana to smash a typical 3rd world military with confidence and could provide a sufficiently capable and loyal military to suppress internal dissent, but it would be as lambs to the slaughter against uber NS militaries.*

Official Communique From The Skgorrian Foreign Ministry To The Incans

You speak to us about cannon fodder, yet your people were stupid and ill-bred enough to charge the Atopian guns and die in your hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It always pleases us in the Pact to see such inferiors signing their death warrants, we encourage you to continue. Also, if you doubt the capabilities of our armed forces then we would be more than happy to demonstrate upon your nation - only fate stopped us last time from turning your jungle paradise into a softly glowing graveyard where the voices of your people are replaced by the call of the dead.

OOC: Yup, the ammount we spend per soldier is not very much in comparison to other nations. This is mainly the start of me and Atopiana's move away from mass human-wave RP to smaller scale RPs. We thought it wouldn't make sense for us to say one day "lol our armies are tiny and l337"

General Announcement, Atopian Military Command:

The Pact of Iron knows that our current spending levels seem insane by decadent western standards. We manage to maintain an excellent military by several methods; principally the fact that both nations are geared almost exclusively to warfare. War is, after all, the crucible in which humans and nations are forged.

As a result, our education systems emphasise militarism above all else - physical exercise, for example, takes place on assault courses more often than not. The result is a nation of well-trained, superbly fit, people. This then provides a cadre for entry to the Armed Forces. Equally, equipment is produced at home in an economic climate which foreign observers have classified as little more than "Produce your quota or face the consequences". With off-the-shelf Soviet era equipment having given way to Pact of Iron prduced ultra-modern weapons systems (at least in Atopiana), we are more than confident in our ability to outfit the soldiers, sailors, and cosmonauts of the Pact of Iron.

On the home front, our economy seems somewhat bizzare to outsiders as it is a national corporate one. The Fascist credo of "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State" is, in Atopiana at least, met. All services are provided by the State. All citizens work for the State. Money, to a great extent, is a meaningless token. Indeed, we translate our Workscrip to US dollars purely to provide a frame of reference. In actual fact, we are unsure of the correct exchange rate, relying on estimates produced by international finance houses; estimates which in turn rely on trade.

As money is, in fact, an imaginary construct designed to replace barter, we are not surprised that many have expressed disbelief at the size of the Pact's armed forces. We in Atopiana assure you, the foreign observers, that your doubts would well be right if only the Pact was a typical capitalist system.

It is not. It is a Fascist system (indeed, the senior partner in the Pact operates a National Socialist system).

As such, we can promise that - as the Incans discovered - it is best not to underestimate the abilities of the Pact based purely on outdated and erroneous estimations extrapolated from the apparent monetary value of the Workscrip, Grossemark or Zlar.

Long Live Death! ~ motto of the Atopian Military Command

OOC: I spend more on defense than both of you, and my military ranges in the 10 million area, including professional reserves. (.03% pop)

My God I am 1337. O.O

OOC: I spend more on defense than both of you, and my military ranges in the 10 million area, including professional reserves. (.03% pop)

My God I am 1337. O.O

OOC: Cravan, serious question for you: what exactly does all that 10 million go on?

OOC: Cravan, serious question for you: what exactly does all that 10 million go on?

OOC: Exact breakdown, I was slightly off in that it's almost at 12 mil:

Overall - 11,800,000
-------------

Army = 3,750,000
Air Force = 2,700,000
Navy = 5,350,000
-- Marines - 40% = 2,140,000

That's all including professional reservists (professionally trained, on call if needed for deployment) and logistics personnel.

OOC: Cool, thanks for that. Next irritating question: you spend a silly ammount of money per soldiers, surely there's only so many new uniforms and training courses you can put a solider on - isn't the majority of that money wasted?

OOC: I spend more on defense than both of you, and my military ranges in the 10 million area, including professional reserves. (.03% pop)

My God I am 1337. O.O

OOC: 1337 and overwhelmed by the enemy's superior numbers. :p

OOC: Cool, thanks for that. Next irritating question: you spend a silly ammount of money per soldiers, surely there's only so many new uniforms and training courses you can put a solider on - isn't the majority of that money wasted?

((OOC: Most of that money is spent on uberly fecking win equipment and technology, and upkeeping said equipment. I operate only the finest, after all. =P And not really, since there's so few troops most of the training is actually put to very good and effective use. I've not participated in many wars, mostly just peacekeeping and police actions, but I always RP my troops as disciplined and effective soldiers. Of course they have quirks, but overall I try to RP them as very high quality.

Also remember I'm an air force whore. Alot of money goes to nice planes and such, as well as a lot of money going to the navy to upkeep the tiny active navy I have (374 combat ships) and keep the reserve naval force used for defensive purposes in working order. Also to the Marines, but they're just essentially Army troops with tougher training schedules and they get wet more often.

But yeah, hopefully that answers your questions/concerns. If not, continue to ask away either here or via TG.))

Armiferi -- basic soldiers -- make up a little under 1% of my population, with another 4-5% of Morituri (you work until you die) providing them with logistical support. That's about 25-30 million combat personnel, on whom I lavish something like $400,000 apiece. Bear in mind that to maintain an army this large and this well-equipped, I have to spend about a quarter of my GDP on the army; so while my military is extremely large and well-equipped, the rest of my nation is basically shit: I have no economy, people die of migraines and influenza, and clean water is as precious a resource as oil. Which is, I guess, fitting for what's basically a permanent military junta-cum-hereditary oligarchy.

But meh, carry on. Your choice I guess. <.< >.>

OOC: A little reading for you guys.
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=297064
Spending per soldier isn't about how much you spend on each soldier, it's how much money you spend divided by the soldiers you have. So take two armies, who's budgets and forces work down to spending say $80,000 and $120,000 per soldier. Both sides may only pay their soldiers like $30,000 per year in pay, and spend an extra $30,000 on top of that to equip them. The difference is that the first one will then only have $20,000 per soldier to spend on everything else, while the $120,000 will have $60,000. That's transport, radars, tanks, ships, missiles, everything, and that's keeping them working.
And that's just an example, those armies would have poorly trained soldiers being paid quite good wages, which is just odd.

OOC: ... Spending per soldier isn't about how much you spend on each soldier, it's how much money you spend divided by the soldiers you have.

Well... yes. Um. And?

Well... yes. Um. And?

OOC: That was directed towards this:
"Next irritating question: you spend a silly ammount of money per soldiers, surely there's only so many new uniforms and training courses you can put a solider on - isn't the majority of that money wasted?"
You don't actually spend that much on the soldier. I was answering that question.
Good luck with the transformation by the way.

OOC: That was directed towards this:
"Next irritating question: you spend a silly ammount of money per soldiers, surely there's only so many new uniforms and training courses you can put a solider on - isn't the majority of that money wasted?"
You don't actually spend that much on the soldier. I was answering that question.
Good luck with the transformation by the way.

Oooh! OK, sorry, I was being dense. Late at night y'see. :)