NationStates Jolt Archive

Yeah, I hate to be a downer, but there's been a recent rise again in real-life based alternate history threads. Stuff like "well, it's 1970, you be the Soviets and I'll be the Americans and the Arabs just overran Israel" (as a complete hypothetical) are not appropriate for these boards. The entire point of the site is to make your own nation. We don't really mind if it's an alternate-history version of a real place (sort of like how Draka is an alternate-history South Africa), but the idea is you play the roles of your nations, whatever they end up being, not those of arbitrary real-life nations in alternate-history situations.

Alternate NS history ("remember that war we did a while back? What if X instead of Y won?") is fine. Alternate IRL history ("What if the Red Army didn't rally at Stalingrad? You be Stalin, I'll be Hitler") is not.

- = - = -

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION:

Summary: Using Real Earth geography is fine. Using the shape of Real Earth countries is fine. Using Real Earth populations is fine. Using the actual Real Earth countries (culture, history, et al), and thus essentially being a carbon copy of a Real Earth country, is not
Question:

If we simply use an Earth Map (since, kinda hard to utilize a map without one, and NS RPs also use Earth maps frequently WITH no reprocussions), and limit populations and economcs to more realistic national limits (since, let's face it: 8 bil for an MT Pop is outrageous on any planet with gazillions of nations)-would that be considered off-limits?
Landmasses aren't a concern. It can look like RL Earth; that's not a problem.

If so, then there will really be no more Earths. I can't see how that at all would be incidental, since the only thing that includes "real World stuff" is the map, which many RPers use anyway in non-Earth NS RPs (check the big Hataria thread, where his territory is split up). Tech, history, leaders, people-all would remain NS.
That's why this is only concerned with, specifically, "real life" alternate history threads. Kahanistan, ICly, is some sort of weird alternate-history southern Israeli breakaway nation. That's fine. Were Kahanistan to play the role of real-life Israel in a reenactment and alternate-history version of the Arab-Israeli war with other people playing Syria and Egypt, that wouldn't be appropriate.

Thanks for your time.
De nada. That's what it's for.

Summary: Yes, you can make an alternate-history version of a country that split off of the real life timeline somewhere back a ways (many people already have). No, you cannot make a carbon copy for the purpose of reenacting or doing an alternate version of some historical event. You cannot refight WW2 as the Nazis, Soviets, British Empire, Japanese Empire, French Empire, and the States; you cannot refight the Cold War with Soviet and USA (and loads of proxy state) clones.
Question to the Mods: Is this just a nominal thing? What if somebody and I wanted to make our NS Nation the duplicates of the USA and the USSR, respectively - and then we went about fighting a massive global war?
Given that people have played (at least in my own knowledge) as 1945 Australia and some sort of wonky diverged-in-the-1970s Seattle Overland Corridor, I can't see how that would be a real problem from the standpoint of precident. It would be dramatically limiting as to where one could go with it, and one could theoretically get multiple Soviet Unions inhabiting the same 'volume' shouting at each other as to which one is the 'real' one... which could in and of itself be interesting. It that sense it is merely nominal.

The problem comes with importing real-life conflicts and just rehashing the Cold War or WW2 or Vietnam or the Crimean War or (etc etc etc), which is just the exact same alternate-history exercise as people can get on dedicated alternate-history websites. Using an alternate history for backstory is perfectly fine. Using a "real" nation based on that alternate history is just fine. Once it falls into the, well, I guess "NSverse" it has to relate to other nations in that general milieu. In that way, no, a USSR-puppet and a USA-puppet couldn't just refight the Cold War (or make it into a hot war), as that's just a rules-lawyering loophole around the concept (RL alternate historicizing) intended.

Summary: Yes, you can recruit for off-site alternate history boards of your own devising, so long as it isn't the only thing you do. 'Cuz that would be adspamming.
Er.. Question, can we post an interest thread for Alt History and people can sign up and then could we created an off-site forum to actually do the roleplay?
Yeah, that should be fine.

EDIT FOR PRECEDENT:

Earth 20 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=516233)
China's Army (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11262009)

I am very close to quitting as you Mod are becoming annoying and ignorant

Question:

If we simply use an Earth Map (since, kinda hard to utilize a map without one, and NS RPs also use Earth maps frequently WITH no reprocussions), and limit populations and economcs to more realistic national limits (since, let's face it: 8 bil for an MT Pop is outrageous on any planet with gazillions of nations)-would that be considered off-limits?

If so, then there will really be no more Earths. I can't see how that at all would be incidental, since the only thing that includes "real World stuff" is the map, which many RPers use anyway in non-Earth NS RPs (check the big Hataria thread, where his territory is split up). Tech, history, leaders, people-all would remain NS.

Thanks for your time.

Normally I wouldn't post in a thread which a mod has made, but I am going to, in this case, and in Scolopendra's defense.

It so happens that he is absolutely correct.

Alternate real life history threads, while interesting, are not what this site, and messageboards, are about, in fact they have never been. It is about making your own nation and doing things with it.

I think the point that they are trying to make is that we are loosing track of what II is really about. *knows the mods can defend themselves quite well, but felt input from someone who isn't a one might not hurt*

Might I ask why General is there then? You know, since its all about "play the roles of your nation". Just curious is all.

If so, then there will really be no more Earths.

The original Earth is just land occupied by NationStates nations. Personally, I think it's stupid and much rather role play with fictional land masses - but to each his own.

Why does a General forum exist then if we are to RP with our nations?

General should be scrapped then.

So RPers aren't allowed to RP what they want to but generalites are allowed to talk about what they want to? If there's a general forum for general discussion which isn't anything to do with running their own country, why can't RPers RP not running their own country?

Can we talk about alternate history on the General forum? Even role-play if we'd like? It is technically for everything other than role-playing our nations.

Question:

If we simply use an Earth Map (since, kinda hard to utilize a map without one, and NS RPs also use Earth maps frequently WITH no reprocussions), and limit populations and economcs to more realistic national limits (since, let's face it: 8 bil for an MT Pop is outrageous on any planet with gazillions of nations)-would that be considered off-limits?
Landmasses aren't a concern. It can look like RL Earth; that's not a problem.

If so, then there will really be no more Earths. I can't see how that at all would be incidental, since the only thing that includes "real World stuff" is the map, which many RPers use anyway in non-Earth NS RPs (check the big Hataria thread, where his territory is split up). Tech, history, leaders, people-all would remain NS.
That's why this is only concerned with, specifically, "real life" alternate history threads. Kahanistan, ICly, is some sort of weird alternate-history southern Israeli breakaway nation. That's fine. Were Kahanistan to play the role of real-life Israel in a reenactment and alternate-history version of the Arab-Israeli war with other people playing Syria and Egypt, that wouldn't be appropriate.

Thanks for your time.
De nada. That's what it's for.

The original Earth is just land occupied by NationStates nations. Personally, I think it's stupid and much rather role play with fictional land masses - but to each his own.

I know, but some prefer a more structured role. I simply find the populations and economies a little drastic (as do others), which is why I posed the question.

I'm still new to all this stuff, but... From other websites I been on there was one rule that was unwritten, but everyone knew.

Once a mod has been down his/her foot, that is it. No ifs, buts or ands. They are king, did not question them. FEAR THE BAN BUTTON! lol

Just wanted to put my input since I got nothing else to do... :) But this is here for us to rp our own nations, which is more fun then say fighting over who gets to be U.S.A. or China. :rolleyes:

Regardless of what this forum or website (NationStates) started as, what is the big deal if a few people want to go another way with it? It's not like it's a bandwith problem. The only thing implementing this type of restriction is doing is turning people off of NS.

[I'd make a similar argument, though in a slightly different direction, about restricting character RPs to taking place in someone's real nation.]

Once a mod has been down his/her foot, that is it. No ifs, buts or ands. They are king, did not question them. FEAR THE BAN BUTTON! lol


IMO, it's the role players that make or break this forum and so we should be able to express our opinions (and not be ignored).

@Green Hawk: Again, that is something that turns people off. We should (and do to some extent) have the freedom to discuss, clarify, and debate certain statements like this. It is the fundamental theory behind democracy that the enforcers serve the people (and though obviously this is not a democracy or a country, the same should hold true to some extent).

Question to the Mods: Is this just a nominal thing? What if somebody and I wanted to make our NS Nation the duplicates of the USA and the USSR, respectively - and then we went about fighting a massive global war?

IMO, it's the role players that make or break this forum and so we should be able to express our opinions (and not be ignored).

Yes, but there will always be people here because forums here is so addicting. Its like a drug, but cooler. :D People should learn to deal with it, NS rping is not bad. I don't see why you just have to play as real life nations.

One question, is it okay to reenact some past conflict, but with NS nations? Like a cold war using our own nations?

Yes, but there will always be people here because forums here is so addicting. Its like a drug, but cooler. :D People should learn to deal with it, NS rping is not bad. I don't see why you just have to play as real life nations.

One question, is it okay to reenact some past conflict, but with NS nations? Like a cold war using our own nations?

...

You're missing the point. We've all agreed so far that we don't find it interesting, but some people do. In fact, some people do (or did), both, look at Ato-Sara for example.

Yes, but there will always be people here because forums here is so addicting. Its like a drug, but cooler.

Look at the difference in quality between the flood of new nations, and the established role-players who ask for some sort of representation in the decisions made.

I don't see why you just have to play as real life nations.

You may not, others might.

Er.. Question, can we post an interest thread for Alt History and people can sign up and then could we created an off-site forum to actually do the roleplay?

Hmm, I wonder why there was several pages on the stickies on "NS IS A FREEFORM RPING SITE"?

Question to the Mods: Is this just a nominal thing? What if somebody and I wanted to make our NS Nation the duplicates of the USA and the USSR, respectively - and then we went about fighting a massive global war?
Given that people have played (at least in my own knowledge) as 1945 Australia and some sort of wonky diverged-in-the-1970s Seattle Overland Corridor, I can't see how that would be a real problem from the standpoint of precident. It would be dramatically limiting as to where one could go with it, and one could theoretically get multiple Soviet Unions inhabiting the same 'volume' shouting at each other as to which one is the 'real' one... which could in and of itself be interesting. It that sense it is merely nominal.

The problem comes with importing real-life conflicts and just rehashing the Cold War or WW2 or Vietnam or the Crimean War or (etc etc etc), which is just the exact same alternate-history exercise as people can get on dedicated alternate-history websites. Using an alternate history for backstory is perfectly fine. Using a "real" nation based on that alternate history is just fine. Once it falls into the, well, I guess "NSverse" it has to relate to other nations in that general milieu. In that way, no, a USSR-puppet and a USA-puppet couldn't just refight the Cold War (or make it into a hot war), as that's just a rules-lawyering loophole around the concept (RL alternate historicizing) intended.

Er.. Question, can we post an interest thread for Alt History and people can sign up and then could we created an off-site forum to actually do the roleplay?
Yeah, that should be fine.

The problem comes with importing real-life conflicts and just rehashing the Cold War or WW2 or Vietnam or the Crimean War or (etc etc etc), which is just the exact same alternate-history exercise as people can get on dedicated alternate-history websites. Using an alternate history for backstory is perfectly fine. Using a "real" nation based on that alternate history is just fine. Once it falls into the, well, I guess "NSverse" it has to relate to other nations in that general milieu. In that way, no, a USSR-puppet and a USA-puppet couldn't just refight the Cold War (or make it into a hot war), as that's just a rules-lawyering loophole around the concept (RL alternate historicizing) intended.
Well, then why dosent General get on a dedicated "discussion" website?

Again, out of pure random curiosity.

Hmm, I wonder why there was several pages on the stickies on "NS IS A FREEFORM RPING SITE"?
'Freeform' only means there's no rules as to movement and conflict resolution. No skill lists, no rolls to hit, so on and so forth. Bonus points for attempted sarcasm, though.

Well, then why dosent General get on a dedicated "discussion" website?

Again, out of pure random curiosity.
The only reason General continues to exist is because the boss says so. General is not germane to this discussion and the "they get to do X so we should get to do Y" argument is not applicable.

I think Scolo really means that in isolation, alternate history is good. Your nation, at some unspecified time/event/other occurred as a break-off from some existing Earth nation.

Because then that would be unique, it would be something special.

But not the Entire Earth for the same purpose and all the little nations in between.

Yeah, that should be fine.

Why was the World at War thread closed, then?

Why was the World at War thread closed, then?
I wouldn't know. I'm not the one who closed it, and I don't recognize the name.

Well, meh, doesn't really matter. Maybe I'll try to re-start it in about two years.

...

You're missing the point. We've all agreed so far that we don't find it interesting, but some people do. In fact, some people do (or did), both, look at Ato-Sara for example.

Thanks for making me sound like some kind of drug addict Hoggy :D

Im a bit confused. I've only been on the fourm for a while but i have grown to love to earth type RP"s. It not only allows me to fall back on somthing if get messed up in another rp. Also i dislike the Choas and lack of orginization in alot of the NS Rpers. Too bad we can't do that anymore though.



We can still use the fourm to recrute others in making an Earth RP though right?

Im a bit confused. I've only been on the fourm for a while but i have grown to love to earth type RP"s. It not only allows me to fall back on somthing if get messed up in another rp. Also i dislike the Choas and lack of orginization in alot of the NS Rpers. Too bad we can't do that anymore though.



We can still use the fourm to recrute others in making an Earth RP though right?

There is a lot of organization among NS rpers...

There is a lot of organization among NS rpers...

There's also a lot of lack of organization too.

There is a lot of organization among NS rpers...

I knew some one would say that.... I mean the hectic way nations from out of nowhere randomly are concerned in your events. And how you can have random people decide to invade your nation and then it turns into a 1000 nation war with no one keeping it in line....

I'm not into the whole RP thing but still, what does it matter to you what type of scenario people want to play, surely if all involved are happy then alls well?

I can't find any of these 'dedicated'alternate history roleplay sites...

There's also a lot of lack of organization too.

True. But that's in the lower tier's. You get to the veterans and they're very organized, IMHO

And Marx, random nations are concerned in your events because you usually send out a message asking for something or starting a war, etc.

Also, players keep it in line by checking each other. In a Freeform site, its the best we can do.

The only reason General continues to exist is because the boss says so.

!!!

So the "we don't moderate RP" policy has finally been dropped. This is a pointless and unnecessary restriction.

I agree with Praetonia; this new rule seems completely un-needed other than to give the mods some extra work to do

So the "we don't moderate RP" policy has finally been dropped. This is a pointless and unnecessary restriction.

Content has been moderated on the forums across the board since moderators were appointed. Nothing new, no conspiracy here, and in case you'd missed it - this is the NationStates forums, based off the game, and the rp portion was put in as an outlet for folks who wished to to you know, rp the nations they'd created with it. Not to replay and rehash history. Nothing's stopping any of you who wish to from creating your own boards, as many of us have done, to carry on further rp, without the same limitations or rules as the NS forums.

It's free. It's simple. Anyone can do it. So if folks really have that much of a problem with such a basic concept - perhaps a suggestion of 'quitcherbitchin and go make your own site-related forums' might not be out of line?

Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it

We have the right to protest and argue the restriction... if it does any good, well, that's up to the mods

He didn't lock the thread for a reason.

Nothing's stopping any of you who wish to from creating your own boards, as many of us have done, to carry on further rp, without the same limitations or rules as the NS forums.


There is, or at least there was. When I was running the series all my 'recruitment' threads were locked because it was a rule that one couldn't post a link to an off-site role play on the forums.

So you think it's wrong that the mods don't allow people to post explicit scenes of children being raped, women being tortured in ten-page monologues, or anything else that blatantly violates the PG-13 limitation? Because by damn, you imply such to be the case while also sniping at the moderation staff.

Grow up, Prae.

So the "we don't moderate RP" policy has finally been dropped. This is a pointless and unnecessary restriction.
Right. Ask California and Alaska or Communist Mississippi/Decisive Action whether or not we don't moderate RP.

As it stands, we're not busting anyone's chops over it right now; we're merely letting people know that a rule that's been around at least since the E20 ruling months ago is still in force. Whether anyone personally sees it as pointless and unnecessary or even redundant is irrelevant. I don't make the rules, I just enforce them.

There is, or at least there was. When I was running the series all my 'recruitment' threads were locked because it was a rule that one couldn't post a link to an off-site role play on the forums.

Hasn't been a problem with NS-related bits as far as I've seen. Perhaps it's how you went about it? Besides, it still isn't stopping you from doing it even if so. It's not as though a post on the boards is the only means of communication should you wish to gather a group for an alt-history rp. Surely you're creative enough to figure that out.

So you think it's wrong that the mods don't allow people to post explicit scenes of children being raped, women being tortured in ten-page monologues, or anything else that blatantly violates the PG-13 limitation? Because by damn, you imply such to be the case while also sniping at the moderation staff.

Grow up, Prae.

that is a far far far cry from what Praetonia said; who could want to read or even write a 10 page monologue of a woman being tortured and raped?

Can we still post Recruitment threads on this site and do these alternate History on another forums, mainly created by ourselves?

that is a far far far cry from what Praetonia said; who could want to read or even write a 10 page monologue of a woman being tortured and raped?

TG, Animarnia.

Right. Ask California and Alaska or Communist Mississippi/Decisive Action whether or not we don't moderate RP.
You moderated his RP because it contained rape scenes and other offensive material, not because of what sort of country he RPed or what it was called or when it was set.

that is a far far far cry from what Praetonia said; who could want to read or even write a 10 page monologue of a woman being tortured and raped?

He didn't say it. He implied it, there is a difference and I believe I said just that.

As to who: Communist Mississippi, Whispering Voices; DECA, fuckers who got banned just for being sick sons of bitches. Also anyone else who has ever been banned for it. Not that it's really important if anyone was actively doing it or not; it's not allowed.

Hasn't been a problem with NS-related bits as far as I've seen. Perhaps it's how you went about it?

Maybe, maybe not. The purpose of the thread was simple - just to make the game known. We even used NationStates populations and economies.

Besides, it still isn't stopping you from doing it even if so. It's not as though a post on the boards is the only means of communication should you wish to gather a group for an alt-history rp. Surely you're creative enough to figure that out.

Well, I have tried to put many off-site role plays up (I think others can testify to this) and I speak from at least limited experience. It is incredibly difficult to advertise any time of role playing site. Posting it on Nation States is the single easiest way to advertise the role play because Nation State's entire community is based on role play (at least, on the II/NS forum). I have even tried advertising on the Draftroom and Lineartinc and it doesn't yield the amount of new members necessary to allow a role play to be active. In fact, after our threads were closed World at War died, and it wasn't because we couldn't think of other ways of getting it known.

There may have been an issue of taking away from the game's players, but I didn't see it like that (well, the entire game was based on the statistics of NS). It would be great if the II and NS forums were allowed to advertise off-site roleplays, because this is possibly the single largest role playing community that bases itself on the role playing of an entire nation (as opposed to a single character). In other words, concerning that, I think it would be great if Nation States was far more supportive of smaller role-playing communities.

But, I mean, it's nothing I'm going to get in a fit about.

Can we still post Recruitment threads on this site and do these alternate History on another forums, mainly created by ourselves?
As answered previously, yes, that is acceptable.

Praetonia: Irrelevant. We can and do moderate RP when it exceeds what we believe is appropriate for these forums. If it exceeds it in a benign way, like alternate history threads, we put up a polite reminder like this one. If their excesses are more dramatic, more dramatic measures are of course taken in response. It is the simple result of having someone else foot the bill of the forums you play on. If the restriction is too irksome, well, everyone's getting exactly what they're paying for.

He didn't say it. He implied it, there is a difference and I believe I said just that.

As to who: Communist Mississippi, Whispering Voices; DECA, fuckers who got banned just for being sick sons of bitches. Also anyone else who has ever been banned for it. Not that it's really important if anyone was actively doing it or not; it's not allowed.

*shrug* I'm not going to argue; I've made my point that I think its un-needed and can agree to disagree with you EX. as for that list of people...that is honstly messed up and scares me on many levels and your absolutely right that kind of thing shouldn't be allowed; goes to common sense really dosn't it?

So you think it's wrong that the mods don't allow people to post explicit scenes of children being raped, women being tortured in ten-page monologues, or anything else that blatantly violates the PG-13 limitation? Because by damn, you imply such to be the case while also sniping at the moderation staff.

Grow up, Prae.
How exactly did you manage to turn my objection to a ban on alternative history RPs into an objection to the banning of child rape? I am struggling to comprehend how anyone could have reached this conclusion.

Praetonia: Irrelevant. We can and do moderate RP when it exceeds what we believe is appropriate for these forums. If it exceeds it in a benign way, like alternate history threads, we put up a polite reminder like this one. If their excesses are more dramatic, more dramatic measures are of course taken in response. It is the simple result of having someone else foot the bill of the forums you play on. If the restriction is too irksome, well, everyone's getting exactly what they're paying for.
In the past you have always moderated RP content in so far as it may be offensive, flaming, trolling, and so on, as you moderate any other forum, RP or non-RP. This is quite new, and your attempt to deny any difference between the two types of moderation is simply wrong. The idea that alternative history threads on II are adding significantly to Jolt's financial burden is simply too ridiculous to bear responding to.

How exactly did you manage to turn my objection to a ban on alternative history RPs into an objection to the banning of child rape? I am struggling to comprehend how anyone could have reached this conclusion.

It's because you inferred that previously moderators did not moderate over anything concerning role playing.

How exactly did you manage to turn my objection to a ban on alternative history RPs into an objection to the banning of child rape? I am struggling to comprehend how anyone could have reached this conclusion.
If we didn't moderate RPs, then we'd still have Whispering Voices posting gunrape, Decisive Action posting his misogynist rape scenes, California and Alaska posting tentacle rape scenes (something it's apparently grown out of; this is good)... your incorrect blanket statement was countered with another blanket statement pointing out the fallacy of using too broad a brush.

The implication of my statement was quite clear - ElectronX and others (you?) simply chose to exploit a scrap of ambiguity to distort it into something that was obviously not intended.

EDIT: By the way, Scolo, I responded to your last post in an edit to my previous post - you may have missed it.

In the past you have always moderated RP content in so far as it may be offensive, flaming, trolling, and so on, as you moderate any other forum, RP or non-RP. This is quite new, and your attempt to deny any difference between the two types of moderation is simply wrong. The idea that alternative history threads on II are adding significantly to Jolt's financial burden is simply too ridiculous to bear responding to.

I don't see anyone making that claim. The point is that International Incidents is for roleplaying about your nation, and real-life alternate history RPs are not about your nation.

And before someone tries to malign the General forum, General is a horse of a different feather: it's for discussion and out-of-character matters, thus not a roleplay forum at all. The RP forums are for roleplay, as it relates to NS. As a few million people have already said, if you really want an alt-history RP, you can start your own offsite somewhere. But this is not the place.

[/notamod]

The implication of my statement was quite clear
Of course it was. You aren't happy. That and two dollars and fifty cents will buy you a thimble-sized cup of coffee called--for some unearthly reason--"Tall" at the local Starbucks.

Beyond that, your statement was categorically false.

I think everyone's comments were in regards to this (although, admittedly, Neutron's point was distorted in what he actually wanted to say, I think):

So the "we don't moderate RP" policy has finally been dropped.

The 'we don't moderate RP' policy never existed.

The implication of my statement was quite clear - ElectronX and others (you?) simply chose to exploit a scrap of ambiguity to distort it into something that was obviously not intended.

Praetonia: It's Electron X. Don't even bother arguing with it...

Praetonia: It's Electron X. Don't even bother arguing with it...

Indeed, I won't fall for your fallacies of equivocation, or any other techniques from your bag of tricks that attempt to muddle language in your favor.

But that's not what you meant, was it AB? It was actually a very blatant snipe at my character because you've nothing constructive to say.

Oh well.

Children...

I'm leaving this open not so much because I like hearing complaints, but just in case people have reasonable questions. So let's hear them questions.

Children...

I'm leaving this open not so much because I like hearing complaints, but just in case people have reasonable questions. So let's hear them questions.

I resent being called a child. I am a Teenager now. I actually asked a question... do I get a cookie? :D

Of course it was. You aren't happy. That and two dollars and fifty cents will buy you a thimble-sized cup of coffee called--for some unearthly reason--"Tall" at the local Starbucks.
I dont understand what this is about or why it is here.

Beyond that, your statement was categorically false.
Then provide an example of II RP being moderated further than universal anti-advertising, spamming, flaming, offensive content, Etc. rules that cover the whole forum.

Then provide an example of II RP being moderated further than universal anti-advertising, spamming, flaming, offensive content, Etc. rules that cover the whole forum.

First provide for us an example of the General Forum being moderated further than universal anti-advertising, spamming, flaming, offensive content, etc. rules that cover the whole foru.....


oh, wait.

The fact is that, except in special cases, more specific moderation than a few blanket rules does not occur. And that's what we call 'moderation' around here. In short, you're not making much sense.

I dont understand what this is about or why it is here.
The old line "that and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee" generally indicates that whatever is referred to (in this case, your opinion) lacks real-world value or worth as it cannot be exchanged for goods and services.

Then provide an example of II RP being moderated further than universal anti-advertising, spamming, flaming, offensive content, Etc. rules that cover the whole forum.
Oh, I get it. You think that II is being singled out for this one rule that doesn't apply anywhere else. Well, let's think about it:
General exists because the boss says so and it is an effective off-topic filter for the rest of the forums.
Gameplay can't really help but be NS related.
Same with Technical. And UN. And (mostly) Moderation.
Wait, this rule applies to NationStates too.
That you specify the examples must be II is somewhat telling of what angle you're approaching this from, and it's understandable. No, you're not being singled out. It's simply that most of the alt-history threads that have popped up as of late have been in II, so that's where I put the sticky. It applies to all the RP forums with similar weight. If you want to think of it as an anti-RP oppression, consider it as one that cancels out all the times we've had to crack down on thread fads, word games, etc. in General.

I have a question; what under the precise defintion consitutes a Alt History thread; in some ways; all Earths are Alt history since at some point in Earths History it divereged from what we know to be true to incorperate the history of Nation X to becom Nation X.

for example if in an Earth; it was deciced Germany never lost WWII and got the Nuke first instead of the US dropping one on New York and one on London forcing a crippling surender from the Allies; that would change the world dramatically Fast Forward 50 years and you still have the Greater German Empire occupying most of Europe as your nation with the tech stregth of the USA are now; a Soviet union that never fell, a weaker US and UK etc; a stronger Japan and weaker China does that make it an alt history thread? or simply an earth with an Alt history.

So in short; are Earths covered under this rule or not; because if they are your pretty much killing every earth that exists on NS. if your going to impliment this rule please be more specific on how one can follow said rules.

Edited for Grammer cos its 2am and I'm tired.

The old line "that and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee" generally indicates that whatever is referred to (in this case, your opinion) lacks real-world value or worth as it cannot be exchanged for goods and services.
Ok. I've never heard that before. Must be an American thing.

Oh, I get it. You think that II is being singled out for this one rule that doesn't apply anywhere else. Well, let's think about it:
General exists because the boss says so and it is an effective off-topic filter for the rest of the forums.
Gameplay can't really help but be NS related.
Same with Technical. And UN. And (mostly) Moderation.
Wait, this rule applies to NationStates too.
That you specify the examples must be II is somewhat telling of what angle you're approaching this from, and it's understandable. No, you're not being singled out. It's simply that most of the alt-history threads that have popped up as of late have been in II, so that's where I put the sticky. It applies to all the RP forums with similar weight. If you want to think of it as an anti-RP oppression, consider it as one that cancels out all the times we've had to crack down on thread fads, word games, etc. in General.
Fair enough, include NS if you want - I didnt know NS had alt history RPs, which is why I didnt mention it, but as you are so insistent you may now read my post as saying:

Then provide an example of RP being moderated further than universal anti-advertising, spamming, flaming, offensive content, Etc. rules that cover the whole forum.

I do not object to this because I have a persecution complex (accusing people of which seems to be the standard moderator response to any complaint that is raised), but because it is inconsistent with past practise and in being so imposes harmful restrictions on people who like alt history RPs for no good reason that has been stated - alt history RPs are neither spam, nor bandwidth-eating, as word games are.

I have a question; what under the precise defintion consitutes a Alt History thread; in some ways; all Earths are Alt history since at some point in Earths History it divereged from what we know to be true to incorperate the history of Nation X to becom Nation X.

for example if in an Earth; it was deciced Germany never lost WWII and got the Nuke first instead of the US dropping one on New York and one on London forcing a crippling surender from the Allies; that would change the world dramatically Fast Forward 50 years and you still have the Greater German Empire occupying most of Europe as your nation with the tech stregth of the USA are now; a Soviet union that never fell, a weaker US and UK etc; a stronger Japan and weaker China does that make it an alt history thread?

So in short; are Earths covered under this rule or not; because if they are your pretty much killing every earth that exists on NS. if your going to impliment this rule please me more specific on how one can follow said rules.

I think I can answer your question: Simply have your NS nations be the ones involved, not other nations. Earth V and Earth II (as well as AMW, i believe) work this way. Now, obviously don't have your NS nations be exact replicas of RL nations. Simply adhere to what you've made as your NS nation.

It's been stated by a Moderator that recruitment threads are allowed - just make sure it's clear what you're posting, and that it's an offsite forum taken from NationStates where you're going to explore different options - such as your alt-history rp's.

It is also a fact that you can link offsite NationStates-related bits in your sigs.

Places like Invisionfree (http://invisionfree.com/) for example have been simple as can be to use. There's a plethora out there. Google it, see what works for you.

Given the fact that it's simple to create these offsite forums, and that clarification has been given on how you can let people here in the NationStates community know about them ... it would seem further complaints are somewhat moot. Unless of course it's a matter of convenience and a desire to 'have it all in one place', which given the ease of online navigation is just a little silly and selfish.

There are limitations as to what can and cannot be posted here - that's always been the case. If it's too much to ask that you stay within the guidelines laid out by the game creator for a game you pay nothing for to begin with, perhaps this isn't the ideal place for you to be playing. If that isn't the case, find ways, as others have, to work within the guidelines to enhance your roleplaying and other activities, and be creative about your solutions.

No problem, right?

I have a question; what under the precise defintion consitutes a Alt History thread
Please see post #10 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12715796&postcount=10) and post #21 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12715897&postcount=21).

I think Scolo really means that in isolation, alternate history is good. Your nation, at some unspecified time/event/other occurred as a break-off from some existing Earth nation.

Because then that would be unique, it would be something special.

But not the Entire Earth for the same purpose and all the little nations in between.
Agreed. But there are people like Ato-Sara who disagree, even though I myself am not much of an E-20 fan...but regardless, it's up to them ruling it.

Curious, how about neofunctionalism? E.g., Southeast Asian countries amalgamating...

Curious, how about neofunctionalism? E.g., Southeast Asian countries amalgamating...
As said previously, some sort of alternate-history backstory for your NS nation is perfectly fine and quite nearly expected, almost. Putting that nation, however, into alternate-history situations with real-world counterparts (for example, Southeast Asia replaying the Indochinese Wars, or the French Colonial period, or the regional conflicts of the 1960s-80s) is inappropriate as NS roleplay was not intended as a sandbox for alternate history theories.

I think I can answer your question: Simply have your NS nations be the ones involved, not other nations. Earth V and Earth II (as well as AMW, i believe) work this way. Now, obviously don't have your NS nations be exact replicas of RL nations. Simply adhere to what you've made as your NS nation.

I figured but I wanted Confirmation and a specific answer and defenition; mostly because it goes to acountability and sets "case law" as it were in stone (I'm a brit; we LIKE our case law) though I think having many Earths with exact copies of your NS nation with your NS pop and NS tech and NS budget would get kind of well...boring and seems rather pointless when you can RP your NS nation outside of an earth anyway with all the benifits there in. Earths are usually fun because they put some kind of limitations or what you can and cannot do; they give you realistic popilations, realistic militarys and logictics and distances but in many ways every eath is an alt history to make that nation change and adhere your NS nation thus could be covered by the blanket rule of "no more alt history threads"

Amazonian Beasts, Electron X, the next one of you who keeps up this string of sniping is going to get a short time out. This isn't the time nor the place. Understood?

From what I understand, the various 'Earths' are basically just fictional nations with NS stats occupying real-world territory.

The problem isn't with alternate history per se. The problem is with alternate history that has no relation with NationStates. Plenty of folk, including some moderators, use real-world history as background for their nations, and at times significantly deviate from it. This is okay, because in the end their nations are rooted in NationStates. Threads whose sole purpose is to replay some historical real-life event, using only historical actors, do not fit this criteria, because they exist in their own microcosms, and are not linked with NationStates in any way.

This means AutoMagFreek could very well RP invading real-life Transnistria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) and making it his nation's protectorate. Someone else could also very well RP as Transnistria in that very thread, trying to hold off the Freekish military and asking other nations inhabiting the NS-verse for assistance. Perhaps someone could even RP a second, fictional Moldovan invasion of Transnistria, using that as background for their version of Transnistria inhabiting the NS-verse. Perhaps they could do an alternate history thread playing out the War of Transnistria, where Transnistria loses and then fights a prolonged guerilla war with Moldova, with that being the backstory for their version of Transnistria inhabiting the NS-verse. However, a thread made for the sole purpose of re-enacting the War of Transnistria, with folk picking real-life actors who took part in that conflict, without any purpose going beyond that one thread, would not be allowed, because it would have no relation with NationStates.

So ... really the moderators are just asking that RP threads not involving NationStates be taken off-site, to free forums such as those hosted by InvisionFree.

I figured but I wanted Confirmation and a specific answer and defenition; mostly because it goes to acountability and sets "case law" as it were in stone (I'm a brit; we LIKE our case law) though I think having many Earths with exact copies of your NS nation with your NS pop and NS tech and NS budget would get kind of well...boring and seems rather pointless when you can RP your NS nation outside of an earth anyway with all the benifits there in. Earths are usually fun because they put some kind of limitations or what you can and cannot do; they give you realistic popilations, realistic militarys and logictics and distances but in many ways every eath is an alt history to make that nation change and adhere your NS nation thus could be covered by the blanket rule of "no more alt history threads"
Hm, I think you misunderstand. The limitations Earths set are perfectly fine. You don't really have to have eleventy billion people if you don't want to. You just can't play things not related to your NS nation in alternate-history situations. As said previously, "In my backstory we splintered off of, oh, Pakistan" is fine. Rehashing the Indian-Pakistani War where I'm the Indians and you're the Pakistani isn't it.

Would it be legit for a large capitalist nation in the western hemisphere to have a "Cold War" with a large communist nation that looked suspiciously like the USSR? Assuming that they were NS nations, and events didn't necessarily happen as they did in the RW?

Hm, I think you misunderstand. The limitations Earths set are perfectly fine. You don't really have to have eleventy billion people if you don't want to. You just can't play things not related to your NS nation in alternate-history situations. As said previously, "In my backstory we splintered off of, oh, Pakistan" is fine. Rehashing the Indian-Pakistani War where I'm the Indians and you're the Pakistani isn't it.

its probably cos tis gone 2am and I'm tired but I think I get you; Alt History in Earths is fine for example the proposed senario in my earlier post would be a good to go? creaing a new fictional nation not always based on your NS one however saying were the Alt USSR in an open NS RP is bad yes? same goes for creating a thread dedicated to re-fighting the Indo-pakistan war as india and pakistan exactly as they were.

thats what I get from your answers and you may with to be more clear on the OP so people don't have to read though 6 pages to find this answer; wouldn't want everyone closing down there earths because they thought they got caught in a blanket rule trap

You're right. I've had to answer the same question about three times now. Give me a moment.

You're right. I've had to answer the same question about three times now. Give me a moment.

Thank you for your time; Scolopendra; I still think the rule is un-needed and gives you more work to do for seemingly no reason but thats a point I can agree to disagree on and leave it at that.

Okay, opening post edited. It's not a new rule, it's an enforcement of "Nationstates postings should be Nationstates related" common-sense rule that's been around forever but (unfortunately) enforced sporadically. The 'more work' issue is easily countered by making it common knowledge for self-enforcement.

These are the Nationstates roleplay forums. If it doesn't have to do with Nationstates nations, you probably shouldn't bother and should go elsewhere. As already mentioned, General's existence is not germane to this discussion. That being said, recruiting your buddies from here to 'hey I got these nifty offsite forums' is fine.

Just checking, (and since I can't be arsed to switch off this puppet...)

Would it be acceptable to have an alt-history with RL nations and NS nations?

Say...

"What if instead of the Axis in WW2, the Allies had to fight (insert three facist allied NS nation here)?"

I'd think it would be okay, since NS nations are involved, but there are still RL nations NPC'd (NPN'd?) on the other side, so I don't know...

That's fine. Weird, but NS related.

Now does this also mean we can't do sign-ups for these Rps?

Now does this also mean we can't do sign-ups for these Rps?

No. But that actual roleplaying must be done off-site.

Correct. As said in the opening post in bold letters, sign-ups and recruitments are fine. It's just social networking.

Hallo all!!
I am a new one and try to learn something funny.
How do you run a war in NS?
Thanks in advance
APD

Hallo all!!
I am a new one and try to learn something funny.
How do you run a war in NS?
Thanks in advance
APD

read the other top three threads under this one

Thank you:fluffle:

Hallo all!!
I am a new one and try to learn something funny.
How do you run a war in NS?
Thanks in advance
APD

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416823

Check it out ^-^ :D. There are also lots more threads you can read, the International Incidents stickies thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=437653) has a lot of links to threads and lists of other threads :P. Check it out, hopefully there will be enough there to help you on your way and maybe one day i will meet you in an RP!

Question to Scolopendra- why was this decision only made so recently? As you mentioned E20 i thought i would ask, as i very nearly joined that RP. It never seemed to be a problem back then, and yet these rules have suddenly come into place and stopped them completely. I see RL RPs just having nation names changed, after all, i don't believe the mods will check every RP or enough posts of a thread to see if it is really NS based.

Question to Scolopendra- why was this decision only made so recently? As you mentioned E20 i thought i would ask, as i very nearly joined that RP. It never seemed to be a problem back then, and yet these rules have suddenly come into place and stopped them completely.
In short, it wasn't, not as recently as you think.
Okay, opening post edited. It's not a new rule, it's an enforcement of "Nationstates postings should be Nationstates related" common-sense rule that's been around forever but (unfortunately) enforced sporadically. The 'more work' issue is easily countered by making it common knowledge for self-enforcement.

These are the Nationstates roleplay forums. If it doesn't have to do with Nationstates nations, you probably shouldn't bother and should go elsewhere. <snip>

Ok, thanks for the quick reply! (lucky i didn't join E20 :P)

EDIT- I have spotted two threads/RPs which look like alternative history, and posted just checking if i am right and will point out this thread if need be. May i also suggest adding something to the first post suggesting using off site forums to continue such RPs? I know its mentioned but maybe name a couple of forum host examples?

EDIT- I have spotted two threads/RPs which look like alternative history, and posted just checking if i am right and will point out this thread if need be. May i also suggest adding something to the first post suggesting using off site forums to continue such RPs? I know its mentioned but maybe name a couple of forum host examples?
There's not much other way to read this in the opening post:
Summary: Yes, you can recruit for off-site alternate history boards of your own devising, so long as it isn't the only thing you do. 'Cuz that would be adspamming.
As for host examples, no, I'm not going to put those in the opening post because things like Invisionfree are generally well known and I can't solve every problem people have before they have it. Given that it's certainly covered elsewhere, there's no need to reiterate it here.

Ok, thanks for the quick reply! (lucky i didn't join E20 :P)

EDIT- I have spotted two threads/RPs which look like alternative history, and posted just checking if i am right and will point out this thread if need be. May i also suggest adding something to the first post suggesting using off site forums to continue such RPs? I know its mentioned but maybe name a couple of forum host examples?

And what threads are those?

Check my posts if your interested, in fact i asked on one and was told they had moved the RP offsite, so thats all cool, not sure about the other one, i just said they should take note, and linked to this thread whilst also quoting something. I believe their going to change the RP so its NS nations taking part rather than RL nations.

I agree with this ruling in all honesty. I would love to see what the NS world would have looked like if certain events turned out differently. Different outcomes of certain NS wars would be fun to watch. And perhaps some kind of alternate history with past technology would be interesting fodder for reading and RPing (like perhaps a War for Independence between Sarzonia and Praetonia with Sarzonia playing the role of a colony).

Having said that, there shouldn't be RL alternate histories getting in the way of NS roleplaying.

For those bringing up General, the real reason it's not relevant to this is that unlike the NS and II forums, NS General is not a role playing forum.

I don't see why everyone is making a fuss about this, Alt Hist Rps arn't allowed here NS and all us Alt Hist guys are fine with that.
It's not to say we wouldn't come back to II if we were allowed, we really liked it here. However it's dissallowed for a valid reason and we arn't complaining.

I can't find any of these 'dedicated'alternate history roleplay sites...
Well E20, like a shit load of others, are now up. Check the guy's linky that is above me.


Having said that, there shouldn't be RL alternate histories getting in the way of NS roleplaying.

Yet RL Alternate History threads were not in the first place; they had their band of followers and vice versa for the regular NS guys.

This decision, regardless of whatever 'reasons' and 'logic' are expressed, fills me with a feeling I have honestly never have felt here... Well, disappointed.

I just now noticed this sticky and I apologize in advance for rehashing older arguments, but I had to stick my nose in this one; just so you're warned.

I think the idea of telling people that they cannot RP Alternate History rps, within the spectrum of the mentioned eras (WWII, Cold War, Vietnam, etc) to be one of the most foolish things I've ever heard being made a rule. Comes close to a law in Arkansas where it against the law to hug a bear.

Something you mods have to remember is that those types of rps are a proving ground for a lot of newer members to these forums. Nations that don't fully understand what it means to "rp their own nation" can get really confused over everything, especially with the different techs within the NSverse. Its simple to us because we've been here for so long, but for others its not.

By letting people role play within a pre-set field of focus is actually something that is needed on these forums. A new member with a bit of history between his ears could easily play Germany during the second world war and because he knows what happened and what was available to the nations concerned, knows everything he needs to know to start off right away. Plus it helps people open up into characters. A way you learn to write is by copying other peoples styles until eventually your own writing comes out, in the same sense the more you rp "known" events the more you get into your own style of rping your own stuff. Its a lot more useful than that.

Also why ban it in the first place? I've run several Alt History rps that went well and all concerned had a great time. And by banning them does that mean players can't do things like RP Medieval Japan, The Crusades, Medieval Europe, the Roman Empire, Greece and Persia, the Moors vs the Franks, etc? A lot of what we do "as original nations" comes off from our experience and know-how of other events in our own past history.

Not only that but it also limits a lot of guys who honestly are interested in it. I would hazard to say that most rp'ers who get involved in these rps come out better for it afterwards, because through the process of researching for the rp they learn more about history and about the people who lived their interesting lives in the past. Its in a way very enriching, from an academic stand-point.

Instead of saying "no" to alternate history rps the NS boards should endorse them on a certain level. Of course you want to encourage people to role play as the nations they create and blah blah blah the whole thing they say on the homepage; but its more about letting rpers get experience, learn new facts, and generally have a fun time. I mean come on, who doesn't wish for a moment that they could slip into Ceaser's boots and command legions or stand on the islands of the Philipins and pretend their McArthur? Its simply foolish and counter-productive to the forums and for the members who have become veterans (like myself) who enjoy getting away from our own nations from time to time to explore nations from the past.

My two cents. Thanks for listening.

I see the logic behind the ruling - that of keeping general RP cleaner - but the border remains moot, and multiple players are interested in both. In both RPing their own nations and occasionally RPing something else, with the people they know and on-site.

Thrashia also made a point of the newcomer entry. NS MT/PMT are particularly difficult settings to get acknowledged with and start in. Presence of certain simpler alternatives might actually be good for them to "warm up" in the RP.

There's no different between a nation RPing as itself and one RPing as WWII Germany as it pertains to difficulty. It's just as easy to base your nation on such a concept as it is to invent your own. The reason why alt-history threads are so popular is because all the diplomatic foreplay that normally happens before two large sets of nations declare war are gone. If anything alt-history RPs teach intellectual laziness because the end-goal is conflict and damn everything else that goes on in actual wars.

As to everything else - the spam rule still stands. If it doesn't have anything to do with NS RP then it's spam. NS RP defined (not a mod here, working off already established definitions) as RP involved your own NS nations.

Look at it this way: there's no difference between an RP about reenacting WWII and a thread about the benefits of enzite created by some crappy spambot.

There's no different between a nation RPing as itself and one RPing as WWII Germany as it pertains to difficulty. It's just as easy to base your nation on such a concept as it is to invent your own. The reason why alt-history threads are so popular is because all the diplomatic foreplay that normally happens before two large sets of nations declare war are gone. If anything alt-history RPs teach intellectual laziness because the end-goal is conflict and damn everything else that goes on in actual wars.

As to everything else - the spam rule still stands. If it doesn't have anything to do with NS RP then it's spam. NS RP defined (not a mod here, working off already established definitions) as RP involved your own NS nations.

Look at it this way: there's no difference between an RP about reenacting WWII and a thread about the benefits of enzite created by some crappy spambot.

I rarely post in this thread due to my acceptance of the Mods ruling. However I must say that some of what you have said is not universally true.

Take the E20 RP for example which did not just focus on a single conflict but spanned a hundred years of history the points of divergance were almost instantaneous and by 1928 the game year it was banned the political enviroment was drastically different than it had been historically.
Not all alternate history RPs are quick you-be-the-Allies-i'll-be-the-Axis affairs, some like E20 and CW '07 had much effort and care put into creating a believable alternate history with not only conflict but intense political build ups and negotiations.
Saying that all alternate history RPs are inherently lazy is unfair and frankly insulting to those people who put great effort into them..

But anyway your point about the Spam rules is correct, alternate history has nothing to do with NS.

I do have a question regarding this directive- is it possible to, say, simply create an "Earth" that's based in a prior (or future) time period but does NOT have any pre-established nations? I imagine it's okay since the map itself begins blank and no nations are entrenched on it (the only thing that is entrenched is the technology level) but I figured I'd ask for clarification because I don't see it addressed.

I just now noticed this sticky and I apologize in advance for rehashing older arguments, but I had to stick my nose in this one; just so you're warned.

I think the idea of telling people that they cannot RP Alternate History rps, within the spectrum of the mentioned eras (WWII, Cold War, Vietnam, etc) to be one of the most foolish things I've ever heard being made a rule. Comes close to a law in Arkansas where it against the law to hug a bear.

Something you mods have to remember is that those types of rps are a proving ground for a lot of newer members to these forums. Nations that don't fully understand what it means to "rp their own nation" can get really confused over everything, especially with the different techs within the NSverse. Its simple to us because we've been here for so long, but for others its not.

By letting people role play within a pre-set field of focus is actually something that is needed on these forums. A new member with a bit of history between his ears could easily play Germany during the second world war and because he knows what happened and what was available to the nations concerned, knows everything he needs to know to start off right away. Plus it helps people open up into characters. A way you learn to write is by copying other peoples styles until eventually your own writing comes out, in the same sense the more you rp "known" events the more you get into your own style of rping your own stuff. Its a lot more useful than that.

Also why ban it in the first place? I've run several Alt History rps that went well and all concerned had a great time. And by banning them does that mean players can't do things like RP Medieval Japan, The Crusades, Medieval Europe, the Roman Empire, Greece and Persia, the Moors vs the Franks, etc? A lot of what we do "as original nations" comes off from our experience and know-how of other events in our own past history.

Not only that but it also limits a lot of guys who honestly are interested in it. I would hazard to say that most rp'ers who get involved in these rps come out better for it afterwards, because through the process of researching for the rp they learn more about history and about the people who lived their interesting lives in the past. Its in a way very enriching, from an academic stand-point.

Instead of saying "no" to alternate history rps the NS boards should endorse them on a certain level. Of course you want to encourage people to role play as the nations they create and blah blah blah the whole thing they say on the homepage; but its more about letting rpers get experience, learn new facts, and generally have a fun time. I mean come on, who doesn't wish for a moment that they could slip into Ceaser's boots and command legions or stand on the islands of the Philipins and pretend their McArthur? Its simply foolish and counter-productive to the forums and for the members who have become veterans (like myself) who enjoy getting away from our own nations from time to time to explore nations from the past.

My two cents. Thanks for listening.

I'm not a moderator, so I'm going to reply the best that I can.

First of all, I think your post, Thrashia, underlines what happens quite a lot at II in general- a lot of people think creating a nation is as simple as giving your leader a name and amassing as many tanks, planes, bombs, etc. as you can and that's not "creating a nation". Creating a nation effectively involves creating things such as infrastructure, a backstory, policy directives, a national identity, a culture, mannerisms of the populace at large, environmental conditions, etc. and, not only that, portraying how the country as a whole would react to a new directive or an international event. If you think your country always acts in unison you haven't done your homework because no population as large as they get here on NS would ever reach a consensus on *any* event, and understanding the many complexities of a situation is vital to successfully creating a nation. Nations have a lot more depth than people seem to realize, and fully grasping that depth is a long, continuous, complex process. It's taken me all four years of my existence here to truly know how my nation would act, and there are things about my own nation I learn every day, because there's always a new perspective or thought to dwell on in recreating my story.

Now, extrapolate that to an "alternative history" scenario. Not only is one required to create a nation down to the very last detail, they're also required to create it in the manner of the nation they're portraying would. In other words, someone recreating Augustan Rome wouldn't just create internal policies as they see fit- they'd have to create internal policies as Augustus himself would do and that's not straightforward. As with any "recreation", there are a million minor details that need to be taken into account and any overcommitment, undercommitment and/or ignorance to a specific detail may create an entirely inaccurate portrayal. Furthermore, finding out which details to emphasize is frankly, a matter of interpretation- what someone thinks Augustus would do is not what someone else would think. It's a cliche, but only Augustus himself would know what he would do in any particular situation, and none of us here are Augustus.

I'll even use myself as an example because my nation *is* based on a divergence in RL history- I am a modern version of Rome, survived from 475 (instead of falling a year later) to today (set firmly within the NSverse); and recreating this was not easy. Not only did I have to learn how the RL Romans acted, I had to understand why they acted as they did and extrapolate those tendencies into values that could be used as a template for how they'd react to different historical events they were not a part of and, eventually, how they'd act *now*- and this isn't straightforward (especially considering the diversity of nations that exist with NS alone that present entirely new situations to grasp). It is based on a lot of interpretation that can't be 100% accurate because the only way it could would be to have the Roman Empire *really* in existence, and this isn't possible.

This of course doesn't take into account the other simple counter-argument to your point, Thrashia, of how much "easier" it is to simply use an alternate history RP- it won't take much for someone to use Nazi Germany or Augustan Rome as a template for their NS nation and RP from there.

As far as the "RL nation" concern- I believe it's already been spelled out by others but I'll say it again- it's okay to use a replica of a RL nation for your nation (as I have done, to a degree anyway), but it's not okay to use a RL nation in an entirely RL scenario. In other words, you can recreate the United States of America and have it react to whatever I, Scolopendra, Automagfreek, etc. do but you can't recreate the United States of America simply to recreate the Cold War. NS is here to be used as forum to act out nations we've created, not just to re-enact history- if you wish to do that, write an essay or go off-site, because that's the better apparatus for that.

I would endorse what Thracia is saying in regard to the role playing aspect of
Alternate History.
The moment a Player takes over the role of a historical character, and then acts as that person sees fit they have left the bounds of RL history.
As RomeW indicated, a player cannot act as Julius Ceaser would, because no one knows how he would truly act in a given situation. But a player acting as Julius Ceaser is going to act as that player sees fit and not his historical counter-part, so he has left the realm of history.
To my mind the moment a player assumes a character and role plays a time in history, alternate history becomes ficticious history. Isnt that what NS is about, fictious time periods be they historic, fantasy or futuristic.

To me it seems you should allow players the historic licence to recreate a new world in whatever setting they see fit, if a player acts as Julius Ceaser, we all know he isnt. There is absolutely no way possible he can create history
within a free for all scenario, people's personalities will change that the moment they put finger to keyboard.

What is the difference if someone recreates a historical period and then enters the fictious world the moment they let their personality loose on the keyboard and a player who creates an entirely fictious world or country. None whatsoever, because they both become captive to the recreaters personality and imagination. That is what makes NS so good, restricting people simply says, I dont like that so you shouldnt do it, sort of like censorship. Why do it, what is the logical sequence that says you can have creative licence in a free for all scenario, but not one that originates from a given time in history. It just doesnt make sense.

Its the liberty of a players creation, that is at stake, why restrict them to some defined structure that some people prefer. Surely NS worlds be whatever they are, are our own worlds created freely and independently. It matters for nought whether they started in history or in someones fantasy, the result is a roleplayer living in his world; not Julius Ceaser being reincarnated.

I would endorse what Thracia is saying in regard to the role playing aspect of
Alternate History.
The moment a Player takes over the role of a historical character, and then acts as that person sees fit they have left the bounds of RL history.
As RomeW indicated, a player cannot act as Julius Ceaser would, because no one knows how he would truly act in a given situation. But a player acting as Julius Ceaser is going to act as that player sees fit and not his historical counter-part, so he has left the realm of history.
To my mind the moment a player assumes a character and role plays a time in history, alternate history becomes ficticious history. Isnt that what NS is about, fictious time periods be they historic, fantasy or futuristic.

To me it seems you should allow players the historic licence to recreate a new world in whatever setting they see fit, if a player acts as Julius Ceaser, we all know he isnt. There is absolutely no way possible he can create history
within a free for all scenario, people's personalities will change that the moment they put finger to keyboard.

What is the difference if someone recreates a historical period and then enters the fictious world the moment they let their personality loose on the keyboard and a player who creates an entirely fictious world or country. None whatsoever, because they both become captive to the recreaters personality and imagination. That is what makes NS so good, restricting people simply says, I dont like that so you shouldnt do it, sort of like censorship. Why do it, what is the logical sequence that says you can have creative licence in a free for all scenario, but not one that originates from a given time in history. It just doesnt make sense.

Its the liberty of a players creation, that is at stake, why restrict them to some defined structure that some people prefer. Surely NS worlds be whatever they are, are our own worlds created freely and independently. It matters for nought whether they started in history or in someones fantasy, the result is a roleplayer living in his world; not Julius Ceaser being reincarnated.

I agree- we should be able to use whatever we like to base our nations on, including "the ancient Roman Empire". However that (I believe) is not in contention. What *is* in contention is using NS as a "prop" to engage in your own "alternate history experiment", because the intention there is to do something with NS that it's not there for. This is something I agree with the moderators on: NS is here for us to write original stories- not to rewrite history- and adding RPers to that mix doesn't change this, since "rewriting history" is the main intent of the RP. Simply put, if you're here, write something original.

Second of all- and this is something echoed very loudly at the UN subsection- "RL" events and people do not exist on NS, which has been a principle that has been around since the beginning. This means that the Cold War as we know it did not happen, Ancient Rome as we know it did not happen, the Crusades as we know it did not happen, etc., so to "rewrite them" is to rewrite something that didn't exist. Look at it this way- if I wanted to "rewrite The Great Pixie War" you'd probably all look at me funny- because it did not happen. "NS People" thus have no recollection of an Adolf Hitler or a Charles Martel (as we know it), so to "re-enact them" is to engage in something "NS People" would be, at the very least, bemused by. Now, there's nothing wrong with creating a character based on Hitler or Martel or creating a nation based on Rome or Nazi Germany (even going as far as adopting that country's name, mannerisms and backstory), but since- in principle, nothing "exists" in the NSverse until it's RPed- there's no reason to "rewrite" a piece of history that NS-wise didn't happen.

Second of all- and this is something echoed very loudly at the UN subsection- "RL" events and people do not exist on NS, which has been a principle that has been around since the beginning. This means that the Cold War as we know it did not happen, Ancient Rome as we know it did not happen, the Crusades as we know it did not happen, etc., so to "rewrite them" is to rewrite something that didn't exist. Look at it this way- if I wanted to "rewrite The Great Pixie War" you'd probably all look at me funny- because it did not happen. "NS People" thus have no recollection of an Adolf Hitler or a Charles Martel (as we know it), so to "re-enact them" is to engage in something "NS People" would be, at the very least, bemused by. Now, there's nothing wrong with creating a character based on Hitler or Martel or creating a nation based on Rome or Nazi Germany (even going as far as adopting that country's name, mannerisms and backstory), but since- in principle, nothing "exists" in the NSverse until it's RPed- there's no reason to "rewrite" a piece of history that NS-wise didn't happen.

So wait, you can't alter history to make your own history? What I mean to say is in my current working factbook I am creating my country from the Russian Revolution, it which something entirely different happened and created an AUish timeline. After that I had included a few references to outside influence like China, America, WWII. But it wasn't ever directly invovled with my nation.

Is that what you were saying?

So wait, you can't alter history to make your own history? What I mean to say is in my current working factbook I am creating my country from the Russian Revolution, it which something entirely different happened and created an AUish timeline. After that I had included a few references to outside influence like China, America, WWII. But it wasn't ever directly invovled with my nation.

Is that what you were saying?

that is what he's saying.

So wait, you can't alter history to make your own history? What I mean to say is in my current working factbook I am creating my country from the Russian Revolution, it which something entirely different happened and created an AUish timeline. After that I had included a few references to outside influence like China, America, WWII. But it wasn't ever directly invovled with my nation.

Is that what you were saying?

*I'm not a moderator* (Just thought I'd let everyone know)

That's not what I meant- to my understanding of the rules, you *can* alter RL history as a basis for creating your own nation (heck, *I've* done it). There's nothing wrong with writing a history of your nation and it includes some divergence from the Cold War, WWII, whatever.

The issue at hand is creating a role-play where the only function is to "play out", say, that divergence (or any other "alternate history" you can think of). That is not allowed, and I'm merely trying to explain why I agree with that decree. My second point got lost in the plot somewhere, it seems.

What I meant with that second point- and it's just speculation- is that the NationStates UN, as a principle, treats anything "RL" as if it never existed, and I believe what the moderators are trying to say is that when RPing in the "NSverse", the same principle should apply- namely that your RP's shouldn't be about- solely- a RL event. I never intended to say that when you're creating a nation you can't create a nation that's a historical divergence (as you've done) and/or that you can't write a factbook containing such a divergence- it's merely that you can't create a RP that illustrates (or intends to- potentially or otherwise- illustrate) that historical divergence. What that means for your nation- go ahead and "divert" from the Russian Revolution in your nation's history. Just don't make a RP "recreating" the Russian Revolution, that's all.

Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. However much we debate however I don't see it changing any time soon. You can't, after all, teach an old dogs new tricks...least not quickly.

shakes head, in confusion.

For those bringing up General, the real reason it's not relevant to this is that unlike the NS and II forums, NS General is not a role playing forum.
You're right, it's a pit of ass-holery and squabbling that consumes half of the mods time it seems even though it has nothing to do with Nationstates as a game, which I suppose makes sense to someone somewhere, but not me.

QUIT POSTING CRUD ABOUT STICKIES ON OTHER THREADS!!!

thank you and have a nice day:)

What about RPs with RL nations that start today and move faster than RL so it would be...say 2009 next week or something. It's more like alternate universe...

What about RPs with RL nations that start today and move faster than RL so it would be...say 2009 next week or something. It's more like alternate universe...

Then that's alternate universe, not alternate history. You just answered your own question. A valid one mind you, and always good to ask, but its not a worry you need to have since it doesn't apply.

Then that's alternate universe, not alternate history. You just answered your own question. A valid one mind you, and always good to ask, but its not a worry you need to have since it doesn't apply.

I'd still like mod confirmation...

QUIT POSTING CRUD ABOUT STICKIES ON OTHER THREADS!!!

thank you and have a nice day:)

WOW! someone made sense on here...

Adding this from my TGs:
"Using the actual Real Earth countries (culture, history, et al), and thus essentially being a carbon copy of a Real Earth country, is not"

Therefore, being the United States of America in 2050 is out. Being a post-USA nation in 2050 is okay. Being a nation that uses the USA in its backstory yet differs in some noticable way through user-defined future history is okay. Again, the point is to make your own country, not play a real one.

As long as things are distinctly different from how they are today and I don't have to go about shutting down some RP about economic woes in Zimbabwe, go for it.

I don't mean to advertise, and I'm sure its already posted, but there is a very nice website (alternatehistory.com/discussion) for Alternate History RPs. It gets very annoying in the II forum.

...

@Green Hawk: Again, that is something that turns people off. We should (and do to some extent) have the freedom to discuss, clarify, and debate certain statements like this. It is the fundamental theory behind democracy that the enforcers serve the people (and though obviously this is not a democracy or a country, the same should hold true to some extent).

Question to the Mods: Is this just a nominal thing? What if somebody and I wanted to make our NS Nation the duplicates of the USA and the USSR, respectively - and then we went about fighting a massive global war?

What if we utterly destroyed Korea with Nuclear Bombs??? Oh i'm sorry i WOULD know that SOME things they did in history WERE right!!! If anybody has the brain that God gave them they would know that if the USA and The USSR started a global war it would end up a Nuclear Holocaust!In real life Huh what about that Mods?????:eek::eek::eek::)

so we can refer to Real life nations then but have little to do?

eg: In my history, I state during WW2 the Kingdom of Lynion was attacked by the Japanese from 1941 through to 1944 (might change the last year).

how about making a custom map? you get soem choices about where your nation is (mountains, seasides, forests etc) and the game generates a map because of these, and regions become like continents, all those places together.

and you could make the nation grow whith its population and have advanced stastitics for the evoirment and public safty etc making them having soem effects in other regions (low safty means more aselyum seekers for the neigbours etc) just some ideas

IMO, it's the role players that make or break this forum and so we should be able to express our opinions (and not be ignored).

i think you are wrong! :)

Just because some ones mind is made up does'nt mean it wont change!:mad:

I was confused: Does nationstates actually take place on "Earth" necessarily? I believed it to be an entirely different world, but I guess it is vaguely stated enough so that a reader may interpret it.

That depends on the roleplay. But traditionally, you can only use real earth geography, not political borders of nations.

Not really, usually, you make your own map of your nation, and stuff like that. It's a very unclear subject that mods should vote on I think.

There's no need to vote on it. Which geography you use, either RL or made up, as long as it's realistic, is immaterial.

Yeah, but it's always confusing.