NationStates Jolt Archive

I want my nation to be an giant underground city.The reason for this being that it is really really hot above ground.Its possible to survive above ground, but its not likely. Is this idea possible for MT? Is it godmodding in anyway and if it is how can I change it? Can you think of any flaws to this plan?

It wouldn't be godmodding if you make sure that the city isn't "perfect". You can't make it impervious to invasion, nukes, etc.

Some flaws of a giant underground city:

Overcrowding
Pollution
Hard to farm

I don't want you to think of this as me attacking your ideas, I'm just using them to make my idea better.For overcrowding, I think I'll leave that, it my make RPs more interesting. Factory smoke stacks would funnel the smoke above ground. People don't own cars, there would be a large public transport system which would use environmentally friendly vehicles.There would be almost no farming.Any farming done would be done in areas closer to the surface in areas where the roof is dug out and thick glass would be replaced.Also UV lights would be used.Both those areas would be climate controlled to make sure it doesn't get too hot. Oh and I'll admit, It would be harder to invade than a normal nation but not impossible. Nukes could still do major damage, possibly even worse than on normal nations.

OOC: Underground cities are also more susceptible to Tungsten Rods and chemical/biological weapons then regular above ground cities. Thats a vulnerability that cannot be corrected.

The main problem would be energy collection for running all the UV lamps you'll need for food production. Perhaps you have a large amount of solar cells above ground to extract all that solar energy you'd be throwing away otherwise? The only problem with that is it'd be hard to defend those cells. But other then that, in order to make it less godmoddish I'd suggest saying your people found natural caves and decided to take advantage of them, instead of drilling the whole thing.

red is correct the confined space of an underground city would only enhance the effects of a bio-chem weapons.

The main problem would be energy collection for running all the UV lamps you'll need for food production. Perhaps you have a large amount of solar cells above ground to extract all that solar energy you'd be throwing away otherwise? The only problem with that is it'd be hard to defend those cells. But other then that, in order to make it less godmoddish I'd suggest saying your people found natural caves and decided to take advantage of them, instead of drilling the whole thing.

Whilst inefficient, there's always that method the Japs use...geothermic energy production, is it?

I want my nation to be an giant underground city.The reason for this being that it is really really hot above ground.Its possible to survive above ground, but its not likely. Is this idea possible for MT? Is it godmodding in anyway and if it is how can I change it? Can you think of any flaws to this plan?

ever heard of bunker buster bombs? apply that to an ICBM, and your city is toast.

The main problem would be energy collection for running all the UV lamps you'll need for food production. Perhaps you have a large amount of solar cells above ground to extract all that solar energy you'd be throwing away otherwise? The only problem with that is it'd be hard to defend those cells. But other then that, in order to make it less godmoddish I'd suggest saying your people found natural caves and decided to take advantage of them, instead of drilling the whole thing.

Extremely hot surface, whole reason for living underground, so its easy enough to stick some heat exchangers on the surface i expect...

The idea seems impractical but some people would accept it, i personally don't think its really possible in MT because of the size NS populations get, but if i had to RP with it then i don't see why not, i wouldn't have a problem because its pretty cool to RP with :D.

Oh, and not everyone just wants to war people, so i don't think it should be the overriding concern. However just make sure cars etc run off electricity, pretty sure everything else wouldn't be nice to have all around the city. One last problem is the place would contain all the germs etc around the place and the air would become stale- you'll need air pumps to sort that problem out, and also watch out for the water table, its like mining, if you get to the water table you start having to use a pump to ensure the mine doesn't flood.

Once your population gets large - and, given NS, it will probably take less than a week before you are large enough you need to be thinking about this - your nation is going to require a lot, and I mean a lot of food, especially if you are a first world nation the way 99% of NS RPers are. Because you just plain won't have enough space underground to grow that much food, and claiming to have drilled enough land to grow enough food for 5, let alone 500, million people, in my opinion would be godmoding.

A much better way to deal with your food would be this: in real life, cities import all their food from the surrounding area (or, given the current state of the global market, anywhere in the world) by spending money on it. If I were you, I'd establish that my nation had a very valuable industry (or several) that takes up very little space and could rationally be explained as existing solely in a city - say, anything high-tech like computer software production, or some types of manufacturing. Then just establish that you import almost all your food in exchange for the profits made off your high-tech, high-profit, low-impact industries.

Raven corps can develop the land above to produce food for you nation. we have the facilities needed for such an endeavor.

You could have a massive metal sun blocker that blocks out the sun and casts a huge shadow over your nation!

Raven corps can develop the land above to produce food for you nation. we have the facilities needed for such an endeavor.

When its so hot that any water would likely evaporate rapidly from the surface? It wouldn't work too well in MT imo, it would be a worse situation than in a desert, people can still live there with water supplies, but to be forced to live underground is a different matter.

Underground.... already has a shadow..

When its so hot that any water would likely evaporate rapidly from the surface? It wouldn't work too well in MT imo, it would be a worse situation than in a desert, people can still live there with water supplies, but to be forced to live underground is a different matter.

The land itself would not be developed in the same sense as a normal farm... We would use a large building facility to farm and have a water recycle systems that would make use of all the water we have. In a sense a city of farms

The land itself would not be developed in the same sense as a normal farm... We would use a large building facility to farm and have a water recycle systems that would make use of all the water we have. In a sense a city of farms

sound something like this
http://nymag.com/news/features/30020/index1.html

Yea thats pretty similar to what I am talking about... But mine are larger and will be self contained systems.

http://www.imagecoast.com/images/Ravencorps/farm.jpg

Like this

Tsaraine's arcologies in the Mother Country do the same thing; massive, crowded ant-farms full of people. The problems I've identified are as follows;

- heat. Cities produce a lot of it, and while careful engineering can eliminate some of it, you're still going to have to get rid of it. Look at termite mounds, which have cooling vents; I use cooling towers and radiator vanes and things for the same purpose. I'm not quite sure what you could use, given that the surface is so hot.

- space. It's hard to expand things when you've got to dig through solid rock whenever you want to build a new apartment complex, and then you have to put that rock somewhere - population pressure should be two steps ahead of housing construction, and the surface should be littered with mountains of tailings.

- weight. All that rock atop your shafts and vaults weighs quite a bit, so you need good engineering skills to distribute it properly. Otherwise you'll get catastrophic collapses.

- air. Your city has to constantly recycle used air for fresh, and this takes energy. Nuclear power is good for this to some extent.

- human remains. Where do you put people once they're dead?

- human waste. Where do you put that? People produce it faster than you can compost it for your underground farms.

- vulnerability to bioweapons. Or heck, to mould; air conditioning systems are rife with disease vectors, and an underground city has a lot of them.

- vulnerability to earthquakes. Since your buildings are already supporting a massive weight of rock, much more can create massive devastation. You can solve this by putting them in a location where there are few earthquakes, though.

- likewise, vulnerability to nuclear weapons, and for much the same reasons.

In summary, it can be done, but you need decent reasons to do it. You may be better off putting at least some of your city above-ground and investing in fancy engineering to cool it; look into traditional Iranian architecture. Cooling towers and walls to shade things aren't too hard to build.

it depends on the type of terrain that is on top of the city.

Do you have access to geothermal power sources? We could develop these for you. If you would like we can set up geothermal greenhouses to grow food as well. I am not sure where you are located, however.

OOC: Underground cities are also more susceptible to Tungsten Rods and chemical/biological weapons then regular above ground cities. Thats a vulnerability that cannot be corrected.

Not any more than most nations, depending on how sound the construction is you'd need around the same amount of rods to collapse it.

As for chemical\Biological, With a airlock like arrangement is set up they could seal off seperate sections of the city and seal all surface access.
Of course those people stuck behind will be doomed but so it goes.

Ok I've looked at the idea and I still think its possible, however with so many things to overcome I've decided to change it a bit. What about a giant aboveground city surrounded by massive mountains?Again. is it possible? Is it godmodding? Point out the flaws.

Sure, it's possible. Plenty of cities are in the mountains. A big advantage would be the difficulty of invasion - tanks would be hard pressed to traverse the mountains. But it also prevents you from having a lot of arable land.

But it also prevents you from having a lot of arable land.

Terraces are the traditional form of making slopes arable. But I'm thinking here that if your city is built in a mountain valley instead of valley + the slopes of the mountains themselves (partially underground), you're going to have to be mightily careful of the possibility of landslides, flashfloods (if you've tunneled into the mountains themselves, you could conceivably funnel the rainwater on the upper sloped down some fancy piping into underground reservoires, maybe hydro electricity generator on the way down, too) and avalanches in the winter.

Also, if you're going to have parts of the city underground, you could take one hint from the termites and farm certain kinds of edible fungi on your organic wastes - the remains can then be further composted. Who knows, if you're advanced enough, your scientists could certainly genetically modify some of the fungi to be used as a non-polluting source of light, too, for the underground parts. :)

That said, the thing about mountains is that something made them in the first place, and things that make mountains usually also shake mountains. Besides, I wouldn't want to be in an underground space if a thermal vent decides to open up underneath and leak super-heated water and gases (in extreme cases even magma) up from the earth's crust.:eek:

I think I'm going to go ahead with the city in the valley idea.I have some ideas.I still need flaws pointed out so I can improve.I'm going to begin writing my fact book.

Best off trying to farm above ground, underground dwellings are quite feasable, as would a subway-esque transportation network between some of these buildings.

But for farming, you need light and space, and lots of it.

Just not worthwhile to bury it all, if you wish to go to that extent, you could start a long term space colony with as much effort...

For uderground living, you'll need ventalation, and you can't get over-ambitous with your building sizes or your population would start showing symptoms of black lung...

They would still have to go to the surface for various reasons.
Even termites come out for air...

- human remains. Where do you put people once they're dead?


Solyent Green is People!

I couldn't resist, though it does solve the dead body disposal and food issue in one shot.

Me, I turn 'em into fertiliser. To each their own!

It's not such a problem with a valley, since that has a river running through it and is generally open at one end, but if you've got a land completely surrounded by mountains, you've got a problem in that any nice rain-bearing clouds wafting in to irrigate your lands will get stopped by the mountains and drop their rain on the outer slopes, rather than the inner slopes where you need them.

Solyent Green is People!

I couldn't resist, though it does solve the dead body disposal and food issue in one shot.
that's the movie i was trying to thing of
Me, I turn 'em into fertiliser. To each their own!

It's not such a problem with a valley, since that has a river running through it and is generally open at one end, but if you've got a land completely surrounded by mountains, you've got a problem in that any nice rain-bearing clouds wafting in to irrigate your lands will get stopped by the mountains and drop their rain on the outer slopes, rather than the inner slopes where you need them.

that one end get's blocked by those you at war with you have yet another problem if it's the only way in and out by land

(In response to the question of how to get out if the exit is blocked:
Homer Simpson:
"We'll dig our way out"

Though caves are very weak agaist Thermobaric weapons and blast overpressures...

You could have a massive metal sun blocker that blocks out the sun and casts a huge shadow over your nation!

Simpsons did it!