NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC Re Datestamping: due to a lack of date stamp on the relievent threads, this is currently assumed to begin on the 7th of June, 1916. it is also assumed to take place immediately following the Reich being informed of the states of war involved, which would be within the week, at most, of the declaration.

IC:
Anjahlixz Blejin:

Albert Lux sat at the head of a conference table covered in maps and charts, around which were arrayed his foreign minister, Air Marshal, Grand Admiral, And Marshal General.

"well, gentlemen. it's official. war has come to Europe, and it's right on our front door. what do we do?" Lux asked, leaning back in his chair.

"sir" Marshal General Alesoph stood, and began placing markers on the map that took up the center of the table "the current plan, such as it is, calls for us to make a lightning strike upon the Waldenburg Empire's territory on our boarder.

shifting the home fleet out to sea to provide greater depth of coastal defense, we have the leviathans initiate a massed, night, port strike upon Waldenburg harbors opening out into the Oresund, as well as any on the danish north sea coast.

the navy will send it's HKs to hunt and sink Waldenburg ships as possible.

meanwhile, the first third and fourth cavalry divisions, with attached artillery brigades, only a day or two out of position currently due to previous plans regarding the German coast, shall make a rapid strike up the Baltic coast of Denmark.

while this is going on, the fifth infantry division, with attached artillery, shall attack up the north sea coast.

it is advised that formal deceleration of war and international justification, as well as a call for assistance from all interested parties, Incognitia, Illar, and so on, be made Simultaneously with these assults."

"Sir" as the Marshal General took his seat, Grand Admiral Aphalle spoke his piece "there is No way we can win this if the Waldenburg army has time to mobilize. their potential forces in Denmark alone outnumber our entire army, according to the RES. but they will take months to mobilize if we strike Now."

Pemji interupted "it is likely that Incognitia and Illar will both assist us in this with all haste, but if we wait until they are ready, the Waldenburgers will have already mobilized, and we cannot afford to get involved once that happens. even this plan is a great risk to the fleet. it does have an interesting side note to go with it though. depending on what the Germans do, it could trigger the pretext we need to deal with that problem as well."

"how long?" was Lux's only reply.

Alesoph responded quickly. "we can begin the attack in three days. if all goes perfectly, which as we all know it never does, we should have Denmark within a month. failing that, we have perhaps another month in which to win in that area or gain significant support. after that, if anything but mop up remains, we begin losing ground by the simple expedient of being massively outnumbered. three weeks after that, we'd be back to our own border. after that... who knows?

that is how the analysts play it, anyway. personally I'd be inclined to say that we'd have to hit the half way point in a month, and completion within three. "

Lux's response was not entirely unexpected. "the Reich has always taken big risks in the name of continued existence and great gain. there is much to be gained here. everything has been taken into account as much as possible, yes?" various affirmative responses were returned. "very well. once more the Reich rolls the dice, gentlemen." he stood and signed the official proposal as well as the diplomatic announcements that were attached to it. "let it ride."

ooc: anything else happening simultaneously should go here. needless to say, there will be no time for anyone to react to this until i post the initial attack. think pearl harbor.

OOC waldenburg is not at war with anyone it was said in a private letter to the Prince of Jagaro, that war is coming, no declarations have been made, no troops have been moved. War has not come.

so uessentially if you continue with this thread at the moment it will be an unprovoked act of war, for no reason whatsoever. This may have been a mistake, or it may have been jsut that an unprovocked attack but I'd like everyone to know that bvefore we start anything.

OOC: Given the way things have clearly been moving for the last few months, it's no surprise if the Anj Reich is preparing.
If your action against Jagaro has not become obvious (or Jagaro has not announced that you've declared war on him) by the time they move, I admit I'll be quite surprised...and obviously, he needs to have RPed preparations before he invades.

OOC The border between us is 68 kilometers long, with four forts the first two palced five miles from either coast, and then the others spaced tewlve Kilometers between each other. (Note the range of dreadnaughts in approimetely 17 miles.) A single layer of trenches with barbed wire stretches between the forts, with intermitant foxholes dug in in no particular order. The forts concentration is on heavy guns, and early prevention due to the low country it's fairly easy to spot an incoming army and bombard it.

http://mcgoodwin.net/pages/images/Denmark_rel99.jpg
The city of Mulldlesburg (Tander on the map) is a city of about 30,000 with a large detachment of the IIS (Imperial Intelligence Service) who polices immigrants and travellers.

Around Sounderborg is a naval base, mostly for supply ships and light patrol ships. It's fairly basic and only supports anti piracy and customs. Due to the size of the country railroads are common criscrossing the country, and you'd be hard pressed no to cross one when travelling in a strait line.

The castle of Maxvillidan, sits about two miles behind the line and acts as the headquarters of the army, though it is more a Palace then a fortress it it is fortified again with heavy artillery. The army gathers there and is dispearsed to their positions.

Anyhting obvious I missed please bring to my attention. (Troop numbers about 10,000 Now and increasing by Ten thousand {Since Liquid time is proabaly happining} 5,000 a day, (Size of country again.))

ooc: I'm going to need to know about your coastal stuff up the west coast as well.. the Levithans and everything... I'm probably going to end up reworking the initial plan still, but nothing like as much as i thought. possibly so little that it's only the generals on the ground making changes, rather than the actual Plan changing, as it were.

also, can i get a more zoomed in map of the defenses? just the actual strip with the relevant stuff in it. can be a black line on white 'paper' Paint image if you like [that's pretty close to what they'd actually use anyway, come to think of it :D] i just really need a graphical representation of this stuff. spies are not so hard to send one way or another... and one would presume that there's been a fair amount of trade traffic in semi-recent times.

yeah. liquid time Very much applies here.

i think I've got this figured out, but i need that map to be able to do it properly

ooc: I'm going to need to know about your coastal stuff up the west coast as well.. the Levithans and everything... I'm probably going to end up reworking the initial plan still, but nothing like as much as i thought. possibly so little that it's only the generals on the ground making changes, rather than the actual Plan changing, as it were.

also, can i get a more zoomed in map of the defenses? just the actual strip with the relevant stuff in it. can be a black line on white 'paper' Paint image if you like [that's pretty close to what they'd actually use anyway, come to think of it :D] i just really need a graphical representation of this stuff. spies are not so hard to send one way or another... and one would presume that there's been a fair amount of trade traffic in semi-recent times.

yeah. liquid time Very much applies here.

i think I've got this figured out, but i need that map to be able to do it properly

I'm afraid all I have for painting things is Adobe, and not the nice versions, it's very difficult to manage without at least a Masters is Computer Sciencem For the fiddly bits anyway. I might just draw the picture and scan it over so perhaps by tommorow I'll have everything up. Sorry for the delay.

I'm afraid all I have for painting things is Adobe, and not the nice versions, it's very difficult to manage without at least a Masters is Computer Sciencem For the fiddly bits anyway. I might just draw the picture and scan it over so perhaps by tommorow I'll have everything up. Sorry for the delay.

no worries. that works too.

Okay though I'm not proud of my art in the slightest here's my "look what I drew Mommy" defenses.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s30/lordmango3/?action=view&current=Wyatt.jpg

All the towns are connected by railroads (The little arrows simply extend them, I'm to lazy to draw god knows how many lines.) I'll have some properly done up maps of my Empire soon, though they won't have the adorable four year old made key they will be accurate. Any questions please ask, I'm sure I can explain better then draw.

now, I'm making guesses here so you'll have to tell me if h'm wrong...

i suppose the weakest points in the lines will be between any two forts, correct? perhaps not the one with the railway going through it. and perhaps between the outer forts and the coast?

now that i have a better idea where those naval bases are [i should have known anyway, nothing on there i shouldn't know about so far as i can tell] i can make the orders for the leviathans make more sense.

now, if I've got this straight, those forts are About 15 km apart. I'm reasonably sure that means that the bulk of the defenses are not actually protected by the forts.

some of the rail stuff in the middle might be significant later, but for now it doesn't matter so much.

names for the ports there would help... as would some idea of what troops are where....

so yeah, a satisfactory response to this post, and i think i can begin moving in the other thread :)

not really sure what the point of that one artillery battery parked next to that castle is though... i suppose it'd make sense if i had a zoomed in map of the area :D

also, Tander is less than 5 km behind the lines. less than 10 from the border. if the weak point is where i think it is, i can Be there within a day or two of beginning.

now, I'm making guesses here so you'll have to tell me if h'm wrong...

i suppose the weakest points in the lines will be between any two forts, correct? perhaps not the one with the railway going through it. and perhaps between the outer forts and the coast?

now that i have a better idea where those naval bases are [i should have known anyway, nothing on there i shouldn't know about so far as i can tell] i can make the orders for the leviathans make more sense.

now, if I've got this straight, those forts are About 15 km apart. I'm reasonably sure that means that the bulk of the defenses are not actually protected by the forts.

some of the rail stuff in the middle might be significant later, but for now it doesn't matter so much.

names for the ports there would help... as would some idea of what troops are where....

so yeah, a satisfactory response to this post, and i think i can begin moving in the other thread :)

not really sure what the point of that one artillery battery parked next to that castle is though... i suppose it'd make sense if i had a zoomed in map of the area :D

also, Tander is less than 5 km behind the lines. less than 10 from the border. if the weak point is where i think it is, i can Be there within a day or two of beginning.


The troops gather at the castle and in Tander, the armorys at the castle as per it's reinforcement, it's also a rail road junction so it's major point. As for a weak point I couldn't really say.

The whole deal with the small pox blankets, I was under the impression that all people who travel to other countries in Europe had to have basic medical evaluations and inaculations, small pox being one of them. The blankets probably won't break anyone but will have entered the system admittedly they'll be dead without a life form to cling to, but it will be in your cities and provided you haven't inaculated animals spread there.

Melioidosis will be a bit more of a problem but not much, it is indeed hardly ever transported between people, but it can be transfered if you don't realize there's an outbreak, and the bodies are burried instead of burned. Then the ground water will start becoming infected although I don't know who stores drinkable water near cemetaries but things happen.

"couldn't really say"? it's your friken army :S if you say it's so it is so.

the whole defensive line is less than 5km from the boarder and well scouted :P i suspect you would at least know the general deployment of your own troops along it. and so would i.

Ok, expected way the scenario plays out:

Day 7: First case of melioidosis appears.
Day 9: Melioidosis appearing in large numbers of passengers.
Day 12: First few cases of smallpox, though this will be rare, and essentially ignored amidst the melioidosis infection.

I haven't yet found how long it takes for infected patients to die of melioidosis. However we can assume that due to lack of medical facilities on board the ships, the total lack of antibiotics, etc, people will start dying pretty fast; maybe even by day 12 in the case of anyone already sick with something else.

So if we assume the ships arrive on day 20, there will be perhaps 100 smallpox infections amongst those still living.
There will be infection with melioidosis in 80+ percent of those on board, 90% of whom will die eventually, if they aren't dead already.

The arrival of these plague ships in Nescia will lead to an immediate imposition of quarantine; destruction of all personal effects &c found on board (assume a couple of unfortunate infections among those doing this work).
As a result, a few medical staff whose vaccinations were ineffective will catch smallpox; this may lead, if not caught early, to a minor outbreak somewhere or other.

Total death toll: approaching 2500.
Basic effects: A large body of opinion in Incognitia calling for all Waldenburg to be laid waste.

Angermanland what I'm trying to say is, I try to spread it evenly. There are geographical problems, lakes streams, but nothing that I could honestly say is a weak spot. It's probably safe to assume that the better troops are stationed around Tander though.

Terror i may not have mentioned it, I thought I did mention the timing. As a sort of PR thing your people would come streaming along the dock blankets over shoulders food in hand, PR and biological warfare in the same package. I may have only been thinking that and not have typed it, again testing is really taking it's effect. I wouldn't doubt that their medical condition would be inspected, but once you find small pox infected blankets how much further do you search?

Due to that statement I will be taking another two day break, I don't think that a sleep deprived, half concived post will add much to the Rp, I apologize for the timing but I think I did well to make it this far. I won't post anything major but I'll be on my computer reserching, and might fit a paragraph in, but don't expect much. Till Wednesday.

Just so he knows when he comes back, this is a gamble as the transports carrying my refugees back to Bautzen will have to cross the Bosphorous Straight, and will probably end up docking there for at least a day by which time someone will have figured out there is a problem. By the time they actually reach Bautzen we will have been alerted to the fact that there have been several small pox cases, and a large number of melioidosis cases would have already occurred meaning that the ships will be immediately isolated and undergo quarenteen procedures; not to mention the fact that the other ships would have reached Incognitia by then. Total causalties will be rather low say no more than 1,000. And thats assuming several of the medical staff carry the diseases away with them.

right then, I'll work from that. *begins writing*

Angermanland what I'm trying to say is, I try to spread it evenly. There are geographical problems, lakes streams, but nothing that I could honestly say is a weak spot. It's probably safe to assume that the better troops are stationed around Tander though.

Terror i may not have mentioned it, I thought I did mention the timing. As a sort of PR thing your people would come streaming along the dock blankets over shoulders food in hand, PR and biological warfare in the same package. I may have only been thinking that and not have typed it, again testing is really taking it's effect. I wouldn't doubt that their medical condition would be inspected, but once you find small pox infected blankets how much further do you search?

Due to that statement I will be taking another two day break, I don't think that a sleep deprived, half concived post will add much to the Rp, I apologize for the timing but I think I did well to make it this far. I won't post anything major but I'll be on my computer reserching, and might fit a paragraph in, but don't expect much. Till Wednesday.

Seriously, assuming what you've said, I can't see how the infection would start late enough to not be noticed when it reaches Incognitia.
Even if we assume it isn't noticed, the difficulty of transmitting melioidosis and the level of vaccination against smallpox would prevent the death toll rising much higher than I've stated.
In any case, the very fact that they have the food and blankets at the start of a three week voyage, when the incubation periods are less than two weeks, means the infections are bound to be apparent when they arrive in Incognitia. If you're aiming for a different effect, you'll need a different disease, or a different delivery method.

"never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake" :D

any who, I've posted. just need to know if anything else happens in the intervening three days.

and then.. it shall begin :D

Angermanland, when my troops arrive in Brittiny I would be glad to order them to deploy alongside your men to help even the odds. In case you havent seen my post there are three divisions being deployed the Guards, 2 Cavalry, and 4th Infantry. The guards are basically an elite infantry division and as these are from my regular army they should be ready for combat. Arrival is approx. 2 and a half weeks from Invasion.

heh. I'll take just about anyone. I'm so horribly outnumbered that assistance is basically a must.

actual attack post coming tomorrow... or tonight, if i don't sleep and am with it enough etc.

To Angermanland

Nemor would like to help you win this war, In turn for use supplying troops we would like to share in some of the spoils

Nerom

Seriously, assuming what you've said, I can't see how the infection would start late enough to not be noticed when it reaches Incognitia.
Even if we assume it isn't noticed, the difficulty of transmitting melioidosis and the level of vaccination against smallpox would prevent the death toll rising much higher than I've stated.
In any case, the very fact that they have the food and blankets at the start of a three week voyage, when the incubation periods are less than two weeks, means the infections are bound to be apparent when they arrive in Incognitia. If you're aiming for a different effect, you'll need a different disease, or a different delivery method.

This is my one paragraph.

For starters melioidosis is a bacteria, weven Waldenburg has enough scientific prowess to keep bacteria alive for extended periods of time. And handing out more food is hardly considered a bad thing. Rp the outcome as you will, but the mortality rate (At least according to wikipedia) is 80%. And if any of that gets into the ground water, food, animals, anything consumable then there would be an outbreak. I was thinking Tuberculosis or influenza but then that would probably work, and may very well kill tens of thousands. This way it's more realistic to say only a few hundred die and many are inconvinienced, and not slaughter the population of entire cities. Of ocurse I could manage influenza if you like, but I'll save the massive stuff for later.

The problem I'm having with this, is that what is entirely achievable for the scientists of a nation, working with all their facilities around them, is pretty hard to achieve on a merchant ship pressed into service to carry people.
But fine, you RP the attempts to spread infection, and I'll see how they come out, and as a result consider the casualty rates.

Also, while I fully encourage RPing of slightly more unusual situations, such as the response to an epidemic...don't ask, or expect, too much of biological warfare at WW1 tech levels.
Deaths in the tens of thousands ain't gonna happen, even if you try TB and influenza. There are two exceptions to this:
If you hit a country under blockade/in extreme poverty, where immune systems will be weakened, and public health authorities ineffectual.
If you manage to come across a fresh strain of a disease, against which immunity will be weak. However, this is limited by the fact it's highly likely to spread amongst your people first and fastest.

Long and the short of it: I accept the biological attack you've stated, and await only a little RP of it from you to start playing out the effects...but will be dubious of anything more spectacular/on a larger scale.

The problem I'm having with this, is that what is entirely achievable for the scientists of a nation, working with all their facilities around them, is pretty hard to achieve on a merchant ship pressed into service to carry people.
But fine, you RP the attempts to spread infection, and I'll see how they come out, and as a result consider the casualty rates.

Also, while I fully encourage RPing of slightly more unusual situations, such as the response to an epidemic...don't ask, or expect, too much of biological warfare at WW1 tech levels.
Deaths in the tens of thousands ain't gonna happen, even if you try TB and influenza. There are two exceptions to this:
If you hit a country under blockade/in extreme poverty, where immune systems will be weakened, and public health authorities ineffectual.
If you manage to come across a fresh strain of a disease, against which immunity will be weak. However, this is limited by the fact it's highly likely to spread amongst your people first and fastest.

Long and the short of it: I accept the biological attack you've stated, and await only a little RP of it from you to start playing out the effects...but will be dubious of anything more spectacular/on a larger scale.

As I understand it Bacteria can be grown with a Heat lamp and a chunk of meat, not difficult anywhere. Of course there are better resualts with better equipment, and Waldenburg is not well equipt, but the bacteria should arive without major problems.

Another point is that biological warfare was used in WWI, the Germans mostly using it against the Russians and French, to slight avail mostly on livestock, but a few exceptions exsist in that. Most nations do not try it, mostly against "uncivilised tribes" as Winston Churchill puts, people who will not be missed. Besides that there are the numerous cases of epidemics that have happened before and recur causing massive death tolls, namely Black Death and influnenza (An early form, not the 1918 version. Mostly in the mid 1550's) Biological warfare at this time is ideal Penicillin has not yet been invented and though not in this time frame the weapons build up would lead chemical warfare eventually.

Now is the perfect time for BW, it's something no one expects even though it has roots in antiquity and has been used to a slight degree through history. 10,000's of deaths occur now becasue of those diseases, if the death toll would be less per capita in 1916 I'd truely be amazed.

I don't know why I'm arguing this now I must get to work, I fully support your views but not for the reasons stated.

Whatever just RP the results on the ship and I'll decide how my country will respond IC'ly.

BTW Terror werent our forces supposed to hook up before our troops set out for the war? Because I had responded that my three divisions and an escort of 10 destroyers was heading out to meet up with you wherever you choose.

Also anything that you could spare would be a big boon to my naval forces I could probably beat Waldenburg as is but I have sent away half of my destroyers as escorts for my transports so any help, especially in the Light forces department, would be nice. I think Waldenburg only has one old battleship but I'll want confirmation of exactly how many ships and such you have deployed there Waldenburg just to make sure. I'll do likewise if you wish because that section of my factbook hasnt been updated recently.

To Angermanland

Nemor would like to help you win this war, In turn for use supplying troops we would like to share in some of the spoils

Nerom


ok, couple of things. first, this thread has become an ooc thread. i should probably note that in the hub thread.

second, no. the reasons for this are extensive, but they include that you really don't have the capacity to Do so, and that there are no spoils to share with you, especially not ones that would actually be Useful to you, or not disadvantageous for me to give.

Whatever just RP the results on the ship and I'll decide how my country will respond IC'ly.

BTW Terror werent our forces supposed to hook up before our troops set out for the war? Because I had responded that my three divisions and an escort of 10 destroyers was heading out to meet up with you wherever you choose.

Also anything that you could spare would be a big boon to my naval forces I could probably beat Waldenburg as is but I have sent away half of my destroyers as escorts for my transports so any help, especially in the Light forces department, would be nice. I think Waldenburg only has one old battleship but I'll want confirmation of exactly how many ships and such you have deployed there Waldenburg just to make sure. I'll do likewise if you wish because that section of my factbook hasnt been updated recently.

Ehhh...well. I can spare what remains in the Adriatic of my fleet. More biased towards heavy stuff, really, as the light forces are either escorting the task force, or keeping the trade with Egypt clear.

As to meeting up....steam fast. I intend to make it to Anj as fast as possible, to be able to more fully assist with the ground war. I'm trying to weigh up which is more important, the time saved, or the additional force:

"What may be taken by ten men this minute, might take 200 in an hour, and 10,000 two days hence."
(probable mis-quote).

Though I guess if you dive straight through the Bosphorus, by the time I've made it to the bottom of the Adriatic...you wouldn't be too far behind. So yeah, a rendezvous in the Med works for me.

i mean money

Ang-This is in response to your question in the IC thread regarding a time stamp. My post will take place within 2-3 days of Wladenburg's declaration of war against Jagaro. Since that happened on June 11th. My post could probably be dated June 13th or 14th. News of war travels quickly I would assume.

Might it not be a bad idea to actually include some kind of date stamp within each post, just for reference or is that more trouble than it is worth?

i've been including date stamps most of the time when i had concrete information rather than vague generalizations to work with. in truth, they should be standard when one is part of a whole RP'd world rather than just individual nations. the only reason the last post didn't get one was because it was literally only 5 minutes after the first, ICly. close enough that the wrong person's watch being a little off could have caused it to overlap.

also, your date stamp has the wrong year :D

in character, this leaves me with a problem.
diplomatic negotiation will begin, but in the mean time your build up means i can't pull the Osteian Corps, or even part of it, out to re-enforce my efforts in the north, if i need to.

the Reich is somewhat paranoid, and to a large extent rightfully so. reasonably peaceful for the most part, but always out for gain when a fitting opportunity presents it's self [such as this current invasion] and very paranoid [the whole German thing is the ooc origin of that one :)]


with the goal of saving ooc time so far as negotiations etc are concerned, could you tell me here what Immyr's looking to do there? just nervous and protecting it's boarder? looking to join the war on one side or another? planning an opportunistic strike?

I'm also curious as to where you get 80 thousand soldiers.... the entire Anj army contains no more than 86 thousand combat personnel. though admittedly it contains roughly as many support staff, and that's not counting the navy or air force.

I'm not saying you can't do it or even objecting, I'm just wondering, seeing as how you talk about calling up more, and you're Smaller than me. i suppose a lack of navy would explain some of it.. but...

[i should note that i have Very small divisions, mostly.]

I'll fix the time stamp. Thanks for pointing that out. :p

As far as Immyrian intentions, the Kingdom is in effect preparing for any eventuality. We have not taken a side in the war simply because we have not been approached by anyone other than Illar and Lyon and that was just a defensive cooperation thing. I can catagorically say that there are no plans for any surprise thrusts across the border or anything like that. Bear in mind that this could all change as Immyr, like the Reich apparently, is not above taking advantage of opportunities as they present themselves.

As far as Army numbers, 70,000 represents the entire active duty army of the kingdom. As stated in my factbook, Army service is compulsory and numbers roughly 1.75% of the population. 1.75% of just over 4,000,000 people is roughly 70,000. Immyr can call up another 50-60 thousand reservists as well if the need arises but their training and equipment are both inferior to that of the active duty soldiers. Add to that the fact that calling up 60,000 citizen soldiers out of a population of just over 4,000,000 would wreak havoc on the economy and you can see why the government is not activating any reservists just yet.

Did that answer all of the questions? Let me know. This is getting exciting now!

ooc what i mean is when we would win I would like to get something out of it

ooc: comments like this belong in THIS thread. ooc notes for clarification for the purposes of consistent narrative, one can get away with in the IC thread. anything in the way of discussion, goes here.

anyway, I know what you meant. however, my characters only know what you Said and Guess at what you meant. what you are, in fact, proposing, is to send your soldiers as mercenaries. go see what the Reichgone just said about mercenaries. and, for that matter, profit. heck, go back a few posts and see what my guys say about Winning.

simply put, you offered to help. he said no. your troops showing up in my territory would be an act of war. i don't think you want to go there.

Can I just ask, what reason beyond general aggressiveness does Nerom have for involvement in this war?

Illar is in because they can't let Waldenburg get away with this, and it's an opportunity to remove a rival, even if Waldenburg is a lesser power.
I'm in because of the attack which took place on my soil, and because the Tyrant believes Waldenburg is a menace, especially to our allies.
Bautzen is in because he believes Waldenburg is so wrong over Jagaro that he has to stand up for the little guy.
Anj is in, because he is in a vulnerable position and needs to either make peace with, or smash into tiny shards, any threat to that position. This is just the perfect opportunity.

Now, I know all this, because it has been RPed to some length. If you want to be involved in this war, being a minor power with no sea coast and no direct link to the main theatre of combat...you'll need to RP it. Nerom's reasons and motivations, and how you intend to get significant numbers of soldiers to the fight.

And the problem is, that my post explaining my take on all this OOCly, is longer than any of your posts actually trying to get involved in the war.

Okay, time for some catch up.

Bautzen: My fleet in the Black Sea is 1 Pre Dreadnaught, 3 Crusiers, 10 Destroyers and about a total 3500 men. Fairly easy stuff but they'll attempt to stay alive.

Anj: With the Leviathans, two questions. One are the cannons facing horizontally or (Nearly) vertically, I believe the Germans had Zeppelins with cannons mounted horizontally, so just wondering which one, I read the thread but I can see it goin each way to a certain degree. Second did you run the bombs by HT, I know he hasn't been around but this is the first bombing run made ever so it way pend approval. I'll reply to it, (My navies mobilizied for the most part so you aren't hitting much.) but just wondering if I could respond likewise in the future. Another thing I'm going to need a list of cities in Anj and their approximate defenses. The closer ones I think I should be able to tell the full defenses, it can get sketchy from there but I need a city to retalitate against.

Golf club: Waldenburg is broke, it would be far more profitable to Invade the Anj *Nudge*

General: As a extremely devout nation you can expect some fairly stiff, if not physical resistance, then some heavy mumbles. Waldenburg is not easily beaten mentally and Geographically.

HFT: Ummm, you do know a quater million reservists is quite out of hand for your population, or that of any country. Generally the accepted max mobilization except for emergency or last resort mobilization is 5% of your population mobilized, period. For me that would be approx 656k, but for you that 250k is 6.25% of your population. That is a hell of a huge percentage you would be guarunteed a severe economic repression, if not a depression with such a huge percentage of the workforce getting themselves shot.

Waldenburg: My personal belief is that it really isnt all that hard to adapt Zeppelins to a bombing capacity so I personally dont object. I also think that you'll be able to respond in kind fairly quickly maybe not with the cannon part of the Leviathans, but certainly the bombing aspect. This will also probably encourage you to develop fighters in some capacity, but as with all things I will aquiesce to HT's views should they differ. Again just my personal belief because I felt like getting my 2 cents in.

HFT: Ummm, you do know a quater million reservists is quite out of hand for your population, or that of any country. Generally the accepted max mobilization except for emergency or last resort mobilization is 5% of your population mobilized, period. For me that would be approx 656k, but for you that 250k is 6.25% of your population. That is a hell of a huge percentage you would be guarunteed a severe economic repression, if not a depression with such a huge percentage of the workforce getting themselves shot.

Waldenburg: My personal belief is that it really isnt all that hard to adapt Zeppelins to a bombing capacity so I personally dont object. I also think that you'll be able to respond in kind fairly quickly maybe not with the cannon part of the Leviathans, but certainly the bombing aspect. This will also probably encourage you to develop fighters in some capacity, but as with all things I will aquiesce to HT's views should they differ. Again just my personal belief because I felt like getting my 2 cents in.

Duly noted. I'll make adjustments. I was going to argue until I realized that the entire reserve component for the US Army only numbered about 205,000 as of 2005. ;)

I actually recalculated my military numbers to equal 70,000 active duty soldiers and another 60,000 reservists that could be called up if needed. That totals about 3.25% of my total population for both active and reserve components. Much more feasible I think. Thanks for pointing it out Bautzen!

On the bombing issue, since it is the first bombing run, howcome you seem to have so much air defence? Not so much the machine guns, obviously, but the pom-poms and the rockets?
For all that the weapons may exist (I admit ignorance as to that) it takes something of a leap to think of using them against a target they weren't designed for, also for your officer to be saying "aim ahead of them"...

On the bombing issue, since it is the first bombing run, howcome you seem to have so much air defence? Not so much the machine guns, obviously, but the pom-poms and the rockets?
For all that the weapons may exist (I admit ignorance as to that) it takes something of a leap to think of using them against a target they weren't designed for, also for your officer to be saying "aim ahead of them"...

I find myself in agreement with Terror here. Quite frankly there wouldnt have been much reasoning behind your putting heavy, or really any, anti-aircraft weaponry in port purpousefully as it has never been done before. Machine guns I can see, and probably elevated 5 in. guns and such as they were really all you would have at this point as no one, not even the Anj. have any experience with this sort of thing. Other than that I think that your RP was entirely reasonable and am sort of impressed how well you dealt with the fact that there are 300 enemy soldiers now behind your lines appearing to be yours.

On the bombing issue, since it is the first bombing run, howcome you seem to have so much air defence? Not so much the machine guns, obviously, but the pom-poms and the rockets?
For all that the weapons may exist (I admit ignorance as to that) it takes something of a leap to think of using them against a target they weren't designed for, also for your officer to be saying "aim ahead of them"...

As for aim ahead of the explosions that's simple "they're moving, let's aim a bit forward." basic mathmatic principle. The Pom Poms I'm thinking of are the Boer War (And put on light patrol ships) light artillery not designed for anti air, and probably ineffective yes. I also had phosphorus ammunition approved by HT via telegram though not admittedly for air defense rockets. The only difference is the angle, and they are all aboard ships so perfectly logical to have at a naval yard. If HT dissaproves then I'll change it but i beleive that the case is more the creation of knew Technology Vs. Continuation of using old technolgy in a new way.

Note: The HMS Dreadnaught had 27 Pom Pom guns, I believe only for the purpose of light fire, the ones I'm using are just a two man job, a little light artillery piece.

As for aim ahead of the explosions that's simple "they're moving, let's aim a bit forward." basic mathmatic principle. The Pom Poms I'm thinking of are the Boer War (And put on light patrol ships) light artillery not designed for anti air, and probably ineffective yes. I also had phosphorus ammunition approved by HT via telegram though not admittedly for air defense rockets. The only difference is the angle, and they are all aboard ships so perfectly logical to have at a naval yard. If HT dissaproves then I'll change it but i beleive that the case is more the creation of knew Technology Vs. Continuation of using old technolgy in a new way.

Note: The HMS Dreadnaught had 27 Pom Pom guns, I believe only for the purpose of light fire, the ones I'm using are just a two man job, a little light artillery piece.

Allright, I was under the impression that these had been specially developed, I'm still rather skeptical about the rockets, but the chances of them hitting anything are slim to none anyway so I'll leave it up to Anj whether he thinks those are fair or not. Otherwise, like I said your reply looks good to me, though again I'm not HT.

a number of things [i haven't read the IC post yet, but]

first off, I've never actually seen mention of historical zeppelins having artillery. what they Did do was make bombing runs.

due to the need to absorb the recoil without ripping the leviathan apart, the guns are forward facing with, significant depression [for artillery] but not so much that they can over over you and shoot more down than accross.

in fact, they like staying far enough away that they have to shoot slightly Up and using the arc.

also, while i can see some of your artillery being hastily adapted for the purpose, anything specially designed to be anti air at this point is screaming "cheat!" .... especially considering that if you had time to react, regular artillery is going to be more effective against the leviathans most of the time anyway.

that, and the whole point in the leviathans attacking before dawn is to give you little or no warning of their approach. this is, ICly, a Compleatly new way to wage war. whatever options you do or don't have, the combination of a pearl harbor-esque strike, night fighting [if only just] and the need to make up new doctrine and adapt weaponry on the fly While Being Blown Up, means any resistance to this round of attacks is not going to be very effective.

oh, and rockets at this point... still not brilliant. they're basically indirect fire HE rounds. their only advantage is that they burn. and that means nothing if you don't penetrate the outer skin And the actually gas balloons inside before they blow up.

unfortunately, i know full well that subsequent events it would be Very likely that you'd do me a lot of damage... so the leviathans won't be pulling this kind of trick often. after this, they get an ASW and mobile artillery role :D

now, i'm off to read the IC post.

ok: significant fact: both air strikes happened at the same time, in the same general manner. i was trying to get that across with "hoping the rest of the units followed the plan as well" or whatever i said.

this has been planned... a lot. the biggest time difference between any part of the attack and any other at the time those bombs drop and i hit the line is 5-10 minutes due to winds and not-quite-synchronized watches.

that was important, deliberate, and as was stated somewhere along the way, vital. i needed total and complete surprise.

oh yeah: 7 Levithans armed as these are, have, between them, 14 of my 75 mm artillery pieces [and 2000 kg of ammo for them, i believe. that's... a lot of rounds] and 28 bombs.



umm... *blinks* i was sure you said something about the other base being prepared because of this, and now i can't see it. I'll admit I'm running on four hours sleep after having been awake from noon until 8am, but ...

On the line we simply guessed it was you, a rather large army in Anjian territory is Anjian, also due to the army being called up it is fairly reasonable to assume that they are on duty, some of them serving first watches. The army was ready there.

As for a simultaneuos attack, well one thing your Leviathans would travel over Germany (We should have had a response from him before we started...). And in that five minutes a telephone call could be made, though not preparing a base it could start the process.

But mainly this is confusion from two different posts

"just traveling at just shy of one hundred kilometers an hour, the Leviathans, for that is what they were and why they were behaving so oddly when compared to regular merchant airships, would reach their destination before the sun appeared over the horizon."

Destination as in singular, not a dual attack. You said it earlier in a postbut the second one shoved it away. Sorry about that, consider that bit about being prepared recinded, alert yes but preapred no.

As for the line the troops would be alert having only been there for 5 days at maximum and five minutes and a charge would give them enough time to assemble from their positions. As I said earlier armed in Tander (And the castle) and dispersed over the line. However it is an Rp play it out as you think, I'll go with the flow there.

and another post.

shells smashing into a fort? those forts are almost 10 km apart. I'm hitting a gap between them. why the heck would the artillery be hitting a fort? you have stated four forts. i have said, "ok, between the forts" you have on average 1 soldier per 6.something meters of line. i have THIRTY to that amount of space where i'm attacking, as well as an armoured can and an artillery piece roughly for every man in that space, unless your army magically teleports from it's stated positions. though i will allow that i did not assume that you would Actually have your line defended by one man every 6.something meters. but that would leave gaps. and that frontage requires every company to cover over 1 kilometer. try to concentrate more, you leave larger [Obvious] undefended strips, which i would have crossed rather than attacking defended points.

also, i take it those officers are less than five minutes behind the line *laughs* i did state the bombardment only lasted five minutes and the guys were as close as possible first, after all.

in all honesty, the intensity of 450 guns bombarding a 2 km line for 5 minutes.. it's a lot of shells. at one of your weak points [NOT a fort!]. where every time they fire there's roughly a shell per man. trench or no trench, i don't think I'm going to have to worry about the cessation of firing telling you the infantry's coming :P



and i realize that to some extent i need to read further before making a lot of these comments, as some of the things i comment on become irrelevant within a paragraph, but i dislike errors.


gah. there we go. 1 thousand men. THAT's enough to leave the gap, or a weaker point, somewhere else for me to hit. and thus the attack wouldn't be here.

also, i think you'll find barbed wire doesn't stand up long when getting constantly pounded by artillery shells. it ceases to be a line and insteads becomes bits of half buried foot hazard, mostly. also, shell craters give cover, which is useful.

so, yeah, the artillery was only meant to keep your heads down as i advanced, cause casualties due to high concentration, and, you know, deal to the barbed wire somewhat.


ARGH! note to self: read ahead before commenting. i comment as i go so i don't forget, and i leave it here so as to have the information ready to hand later if it becomes relevant.

also, an Anj company is ~125 men. just for the record. what they were Doing was neutralizing machine guns and so on so the rest of the division could follow through. i'm not silly enough to leave a company or two of infantry wandering around in your rear areas. they're not mobile eough. that's what cavalry's for.

oh, and by the by, there are three cavalry divisions attacking that eastern point, and their attached artillery brigades are, total, another division. that's 18,000 cavalry men. even allowing for 2/5ths of that being taken up by armored cars [not good for assaulting trenches] and horse holders, that's still over 10 thousand men. hitting a 2 km stretch of line.



aha! found it! : "and when the attack came through the naval base in the east was prepared with rockets and Pom Poms and even a few searchlights."

now you CAN"T tell me they did THAT within five minutes. or even ten, really. I'd be surprised if the telegram even reached the people who would tell them what to DO within 5-10 minutes.

i think that covers everything.

"Destination as in singular, not a dual attack. You said it earlier in a postbut the second one shoved it away. Sorry about that, consider that bit about being prepared recinded, alert yes but preapred no. "

destination, singular, FOR ONE OF TWO GROUPS. there are two groups of leviathans. one for each port. both of 7 airships. and something you forget is that there isn't a whole lot of Germany for them to go over between the Reich and the Baltic. only just enough that your guys on the line wouldn't see them early and sound an alert.

the second group, in a completely different place, is in the next section, and it's the one i actually described.

even if the Germans Did see them, it's doubtful they'd register what they were. dark colors, night time, obviously zeppelins. they don't know about the leviathan project so while it might seem weird, and might get reported, it's unlikely that you'd get the message in the short space of time before the 'ships were making their attack.


edit: on that note, what the heck else other than a frontal assault could i do? your lines go the whole way across the boarder, and you control the seas in the area. i asked for your troop dispostions. you said "spread roughly evenly" so i found what would be the weakest point and struck. in order to defend it as well as you are, you'd have have to [i believe i already said this] left a big enough gap somewhere else, or at least weakened everywhere else, enough to be noticeable. if you left a gap, i'd hit There instead.

in fact, you said you had concentrated a bit in a third location, which I'm deliberately NOT hitting [by the town in the west] so either there are glaring great gaps in your line WHICH I WOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH INSTEAD, (the knowledge would have been available to me. you're right frikin There) there by bypassing the whole battle and swinging around to hit you in the rear.

oh, and as for your guys figuring out I'm the one making the attack? that's fine. it was basically guaranteed the moment they saw the uniforms anyway. figuring out the attack would be made ahead of time is a lot more tricky, given that it's well known i consider Germany a threat and thus have my troops mostly mobilized in the general area a lot of the time anyway. [a fact i was making use of]

gah. man i sound grouchy. lack of sleep, errors that have already been covered both IC and OOCly, other confusion, and my days plans all being shot to hell and gone do not make for a happy me, unfortunately.

woo. fear my repeated posts.

anyway, getting responses from Germany seems almost like getting blood from a stone. besides, as i noted somewhere, at most some of his guys would see the leviathans in the night, and report it as a bit odd. they'd probably hear of me blowing your ports before they figured out what it meant, let alone what to do about it.

i mean, his own war should have started, ICly, a year or more ago. it didn't because of lack of posting.

thus, here we are.

edit: and apologies for getting wound up about some of this stuff. my sleep deprived brain keeps missing things. *sigh*

As for bombarding a fort I would have suggested you have done so before charging in fact giving you a little damage there would have made it oh so more easy to break. But you can charge them whole and bombard while your troops are within shelling range the whole time. As for the officers I imagine they would be at their respective commands such as Forts perhaps, not two minutes behind the trenches.

In response to the artillery, not only in WWI where far more cannons were concentrated on such sized spaces (Marne mainly and possibly Vimy but under different circumstances. Or battle where a higher amount was used on larger spaces but comes down to practically same amount of fire.) they casued a lost less damage then blowing open the trenches smashing the barbed wire and generally killing everyone. They also had a huge common advantage of firing during the day and not in the night at half invisable trenches. I believe you overestimate the power of artillery in a situation where one army is entrenched.

Mostly though I'd like to say there will be discrepancies in any Rp, things will be missed, things will be mispelled, and people will use capitals far more then is stricly neccesary. I must ask that we all overlook some things, such minor details such as where the shells fall, to add to the general enjoyability of the Rp. There are assumptions made... or not made and at the moment it is, 5 vs 1, I am bound to miss a few things. Remeber that i'm as sleep deprived as you Anger.

Note: You could have landed infiltration teams in your Leviathans and slowly wreaked a war of terror on the inside drawing troops away from the line then leading to your assualt. Also in that time my navy probably would have been drawn away taking that possbible threat away, they fear Illar. This all amounts to Terror's suggestion.

err, you're missing the point with the forts. you have four of them.

I am Not attacking the Forts
((bolded for emphasis because you seem to have missed this rather important point repeatedly, and the goal is to draw it to your attention, not yell at you :D. your lines between those main forts were stated as trenches with some barbed wire. as in, no forts.))


this is highly significant. it's important. it's the whole principle of the logic behind the attack. when a mobile force is faced with a fixed defense, they find a weak point, exploit it, and bypass said defense, eventually either drawing the defenders out, or so weakening them that they are far easier to defeat.

. I'm attacking the line in between them. there are at Least 10 kilometers between each, you know. I'm not attacking them whole, damaged, or otherwise. I'm going Around them.

as for the artillery. its not so much I'm over estimating the power of the guns, as i was allowing for the truly pathetic number of troops you had. even if it kills no one, keeping your guys down while my troops advance and smashing the barbed wire is enough.

not to mention, if i remember rightly, in ww1 artillery was the thing that did the damage. only disease and the like killed more guys, i believe.


heh. i know there are discrepancies. in all honesty, my main goal was to... reduce them.

regarding the infiltration tactic. it wouldn't work, unfortunately. leviathans are too obvious, such cut off teams with no real support network too easy to kill... and a populous so terrorized would be even more resistant to assimilation. besides, again, when your defensive line has less than one man per 7 meters, it's pretty darn weak already.

besides, once the cavalry break through, they're basically going to rampage through the rear areas anyway. raiding convoys, stealing supplies, removing rail links between key points, etc.

I've got this allll planned out.

As for bombarding a fort I would have suggested you have done so before charging in fact giving you a little damage there would have made it oh so more easy to break. But you can charge them whole and bombard while your troops are within shelling range the whole time. As for the officers I imagine they would be at their respective commands such as Forts perhaps, not two minutes behind the trenches.

In response to the artillery, not only in WWI where far more cannons were concentrated on such sized spaces (Marne mainly and possibly Vimy but under different circumstances. Or battle where a higher amount was used on larger spaces but comes down to practically same amount of fire.) they casued a lost less damage then blowing open the trenches smashing the barbed wire and generally killing everyone. They also had a huge common advantage of firing during the day and not in the night at half invisable trenches. I believe you overestimate the power of artillery in a situation where one army is entrenched.

Mostly though I'd like to say there will be discrepancies in any Rp, things will be missed, things will be mispelled, and people will use capitals far more then is stricly neccesary. I must ask that we all overlook some things, such minor details such as where the shells fall, to add to the general enjoyability of the Rp. There are assumptions made... or not made and at the moment it is, 5 vs 1, I am bound to miss a few things. Remeber that i'm as sleep deprived as you Anger.

Note: You could have landed infiltration teams in your Leviathans and slowly wreaked a war of terror on the inside drawing troops away from the line then leading to your assualt. Also in that time my navy probably would have been drawn away taking that possbible threat away, they fear Illar. This all amounts to Terror's suggestion.

WWI was and remains to this day the only war where artillary killed more men than small arms or combat related means did. The main problem with the attacks you mentioned was that in both cases bombardments lasted hours or days which alowed the enemy to move reserves up to that point before the attack actually began thus leading to a slug fest between the two sides infantry. The Germans would discover late in the war, however, that short but brutally powerful artillary bombardments which crept foreward were far more effective than the traditional days long bombardments. The reason for this being the troops who managed to survive the bombardment are in no shape to hold back a force far stronger than themselves, and their own forces have no significant reserves in sight.

NOTE: This info came from several sources primarily among them were "A World Undone," and "War Made New," both of which are excellent resources regarding the First World War and in the case of the second of those war in general for the past 500 years.

Actually, can we leave off the WWI comparisons?

The concentration of troops is far too small to be remotely comparable. At the end of the Race to the Sea, you have 200,000 men on the part of the British, holding 24 miles of front (just under 40 km).

On the Waldenburg border there are 5% that number of troops, on best part of twice the frontage.
For anyone keeping track, that means if Waldenburg's troops are evenly distributed, assuming none in the forts etc, his line is about 40 times weaker than the British trench-lines in November 1914.

That's ignoring presumably significant levels of manning in the forts, men for any artillery, for any points that do have concentrated defences, etc.

If my recollection of Anj's division sizes is correct, that leaves you outnumbered two or three times to one across the entire front, with his forces being more mobile than yours (the heavy emphasis on cavalry).

Given the fact that from IC stuff his forces are more concentrated, local superiority could reach 8 or 10:1 against what we see (by comparison with the RL Western Front) is a very weak trench line.
Given the fact that you also accepted his infiltrating his troops quite close in to the trenches, I can't see any way that the trench line won't get overwhelmed...

Still, kudos on all sides for keeping it amicable and bolded not CAPITALISED. It'll probably seem a bit clearer after some more sleep (definitely feeling the lack of sleep vibe here).

Actually, can we leave off the WWI comparisons?

The concentration of troops is far too small to be remotely comparable. At the end of the Race to the Sea, you have 200,000 men on the part of the British, holding 24 miles of front (just under 40 km).

On the Waldenburg border there are 5% that number of troops, on best part of twice the frontage.
For anyone keeping track, that means if Waldenburg's troops are evenly distributed, assuming none in the forts etc, his line is about 40 times weaker than the British trench-lines in November 1914.

That's ignoring presumably significant levels of manning in the forts, men for any artillery, for any points that do have concentrated defences, etc.

If my recollection of Anj's division sizes is correct, that leaves you outnumbered two or three times to one across the entire front, with his forces being more mobile than yours (the heavy emphasis on cavalry).

Given the fact that from IC stuff his forces are more concentrated, local superiority could reach 8 or 10:1 against what we see (by comparison with the RL Western Front) is a very weak trench line.
Given the fact that you also accepted his infiltrating his troops quite close in to the trenches, I can't see any way that the trench line won't get overwhelmed...

Still, kudos on all sides for keeping it amicable and bolded not CAPITALISED. It'll probably seem a bit clearer after some more sleep (definitely feeling the lack of sleep vibe here).

But my point was regarding what Waldenburg said about overestimating the stringth of artillary, my point was that they can maul defenders in any defensive position and that in WWI the only reason that armies didnt advance was because for the majority of the war they used these uber-long bombardments which alerted the enemy to where the attack is going to be. Sort of covering for any response along the lines of "well why didnt armies make progress if artillary was so powerful," by using the closest parallel RL has, though the Russo-Japanese war would also be helpful and I would suggest that you readup on that, as it was conducted with armies around the same size as ours will be.

err, you're missing the point with the forts. you have four of them.

I am Not attacking the Forts
((bolded for emphasis because you seem to have missed this rather important point repeatedly, and the goal is to draw it to your attention, not yell at you :D. your lines between those main forts were stated as trenches with some barbed wire. as in, no forts.))


this is highly significant. it's important. it's the whole principle of the logic behind the attack. when a mobile force is faced with a fixed defense, they find a weak point, exploit it, and bypass said defense, eventually either drawing the defenders out, or so weakening them that they are far easier to defeat.

. I'm attacking the line in between them. there are at Least 10 kilometers between each, you know. I'm not attacking them whole, damaged, or otherwise. I'm going Around them.

as for the artillery. its not so much I'm over estimating the power of the guns, as i was allowing for the truly pathetic number of troops you had. even if it kills no one, keeping your guys down while my troops advance and smashing the barbed wire is enough.

not to mention, if i remember rightly, in ww1 artillery was the thing that did the damage. only disease and the like killed more guys, i believe.


heh. i know there are discrepancies. in all honesty, my main goal was to... reduce them.

regarding the infiltration tactic. it wouldn't work, unfortunately. leviathans are too obvious, such cut off teams with no real support network too easy to kill... and a populous so terrorized would be even more resistant to assimilation. besides, again, when your defensive line has less than one man per 7 meters, it's pretty darn weak already.

besides, once the cavalry break through, they're basically going to rampage through the rear areas anyway. raiding convoys, stealing supplies, removing rail links between key points, etc.

I've got this allll planned out.

I just asumed you didn't want to leave an army (Well small garrisons) at your back and advance under artillery fire, with strong points left in the line, IE having your forces cut off. I suppose never interrupt an enemy while he's making a mistake but meh...

Also it's rather hard saying it's wouldn't work if you were fighting my soldiers ;)
Note: 1000 men over 2 kilometers is one man per every two meters. But yeah it's basically the same thing.

Note 2: If spread equally (which it is) the total would have been 588 Men per kilometer the other 176 are already casualties.

Bautzen: True but what I'm saying in this instance is that it wouldn't have been neccesary if the line could be broken in under 10 minutes of bombardment which it can't. His likelyhood of hitting anyone in the trenches (in comparison to the WWI likelyhood) is 1:20 (Simply due to lack of my troops and spacing.) And that only factors in the trenches not all the misses in the dark, perhaps I underestimate it, five minutes if would seem unlikely to damage the trench severely

Terror: I never said the line wouldn't fall, I left the Rping up to Anj (If he likes and he will be able to determine casualties on the line at his will) but when 4500 men assualt 1000 Entrenched men those 4500 have to be prepared to take casualties. (I assume you are thinking of Ypres here, it is approximately the same size and the first battle that comes to mind when thinging of Race to the Sea?) Just out of intereast.

Another also, just as reference in comparison to Ypres, Anj has 27 times less troops then Germany where as I have only 5 times less then Britian (Yipee). Not very helpful when you listen to the end of the Battle, but it turned out to be a hard fought allied victory where 22% of the Germans were casulties and nearly 50% of the Allies were casualties. German casualties around 140,000, and allies with 100,000. Giving us the ratio 5:7 so if it were applied to our situation (Which it can't be accurately, or at all) it would mean if we take 100% (2100) unlikely, casualties in those two sections, Anj would by that formula take 2975. This can't be applied as Ypres has very few similarities to this But it should relate to the fact that it's going to be heavy casualties all around. (5% of my total troops, and 13% of yours, if we go by the model.

I pick this battle as it is the very essence of, Phyrric victories for the allies (As the battle should be either way. This is by no means what the battle should look like but you can't assualt a enemy position easily.)

Oh and Anj if you could give me that list of cities.

Dont expect an exchange rate comparable to Ypres, the Germans were caught out of position by the British at Ypres and so responded stupidly for one, and the average British regular was probably the best in the world at the time, the reason for this being that Britain trained its troops to be marksman, and to shoot quickly. Prizes were awarded to the best marksmen in the Empire at annual competitions. This was a legacy of the Beour War which led Britain to emphasize these things. When the Germans first encountered the British they thought they were fighting an army equipped with machine guns as personal weapons, quite literally also.

Also that many canon can put several hundred rounds onto to 2 kilometer radius in 5 min. you do the math there, just saying dont underestimate how effective artillary can be if used efficiently. Though, I obviously understand that most of your troops will survive they will take a beating and probably be rather shell shocked for a few moments after its conclusion.

Dont expect an exchange rate comparable to Ypres, the Germans were caught out of position by the British at Ypres and so responded stupidly for one, and the average British regular was probably the best in the world at the time, the reason for this being that Britain trained its troops to be marksman, and to shoot quickly. Prizes were awarded to the best marksmen in the Empire at annual competitions. This was a legacy of the Beour War which led Britain to emphasize these things. When the Germans first encountered the British they thought they were fighting an army equipped with machine guns as personal weapons, quite literally also.

Also that many canon can put several hundred rounds onto to 2 kilometer radius in 5 min. you do the math there, just saying dont underestimate how effective artillary can be if used efficiently. Though, I obviously understand that most of your troops will survive they will take a beating and probably be rather shell shocked for a few moments after its conclusion.

I did say it wasn't too comparable at least three times. the cut and thrust of my argument is that when an army advances on a trench at any time it will take casulties, usually heavy although obviously dulled down in this situation.

As for artillery the math is 400x5x12 (ARF being taken from 75 mm cannon, I don't think Anj posted a general caliber but this is pretty standard) A total of 24,000 shells. At this point the guns are firing blindly at some faint points of light, the trenches are spreading the length of the country, unless they're setting up in the light, in which case we whould have seen, I'd be amazed if they were firing at the right location. I also find it hard to beleive that we would have missed a army setting up. I find it difficult to find the bathroom in the night nevermind setting up 450 guns in nice neat rows organizing at least an entire brigade, and dodging artilley shells, barbed wire, sporadic bursts of machine gun fire .

My troops would be aware, if there was a great deal of light which I suspect, or the Anjians would be fumbling around and if the Infantry advanced to far being shelled be it's own guns. Now provided Anj is only shelling the line (As he has stated) my Artillery can take it's time finiding targets from giant muzzle flashes, where the guns are nearly stacked on top of each other. I may be underestimating artillery in general but in this situation it is either, Incrediably inaccruate fire where the Anjians have set up in near secracy and are probably shelling the wrong section of line, or just poor accuracy while lighting their army up so they can position themselves properly.

Artillery is one of the great weapons of WWI but in this case it is either a major flaw in the Rp or inpractical to set up and fire, I await a response from Anj on the subject. No doubt Waldenburger conscripts would be terrified, by this and would indeed be metaphorically be huddling in the corner with a blanket over their head, shell shock to the extreme. However on reflection and after six hours of sleep I finally realize the flaw in the argument.

actually, i did post a general caliber in my fact book. except for the occasional heavier thing and my infantry divisions having integral mortars, most of my artillery IS 75 mm.

i assume your 4500 men is from the example, because i can't see how else you're getting it. you're being hit, on that 2 km stretch, by over 10 000 After i take into account the fact that horse holders, armored cars, and artillery crew aren't actually going to be involved in the attack directly.

as for leaving the forts intact to cut me off....

my plan's actually to have the cavalry cruise around cutting supply lines and roads and railways and the like, [which partially helps even if they're cut off]. that's 18 thousand cavalry [including armored cars which count as two each, and horse holders who only count when my guys are mounted or as a reserve for combat purposes] plus another 450 artillery pieces in your rear area. going to make re-enforcing a pain in the butt for you :)

and i'm getting re-enforcements [or, if I'm desperate, can pull up my defensive guys from the south west.] at which point i shall assault the [theoretically weakened forts] properly with siege guns and so on. if you pull into them and re-enforce the forts, I'll not only do that, but be sending more troops across the gaps. if you pull back, you have to face the cavalry in the open.

i think it all works quite neatly, actually. i also intend to garrison and fortify that gap. but even if i don't and you close it up again... I've still got 18 thousand cavalry and 450 guns. i simply come back and break it again *laughs*

the word here is Blitz. stopping to take forts when i can cut them off, weaken them, and deal with them later... that's not blitzy.

regarding the artillery.... it's entirely possible that i had scouts up ahead before the guns got there mark where to put them and what direction to face etc. information and speed are the two things i have in abundance.

i should probably have written it down, but... *shrugs* i sorta took it as a given that if they wanted to hit where they were aiming, they'd actually do something about being able to aim at it in the first place.

actually, having scouts mark the area ahead of time is a Napoleonic tactic, if i remember rightly, possibly even earlier. admittedly it was originally for camps, but i don't see why it couldn't easily be adapted to artillery deployment.

actually, given how close i had my infantry get before i Began the bombardment, it's kinda silly to assume i Hadn't done something to ensure my aim was good enough to not blast them.

anyway, I'm going to go read the IC post again. and then respond. i actually have some of the scenes sorted in my head already [including the loss of a leviathan to fire and the general response to it by my guys. ]

actually, i did post a general caliber in my fact book. except for the occasional heavier thing and my infantry divisions having integral mortars, most of my artillery IS 75 mm.

i assume your 4500 men is from the example, because i can't see how else you're getting it. you're being hit, on that 2 km stretch, by over 10 000 After i take into account the fact that horse holders, armored cars, and artillery crew aren't actually going to be involved in the attack directly.

as for leaving the forts intact to cut me off....

my plan's actually to have the cavalry cruise around cutting supply lines and roads and railways and the like, [which partially helps even if they're cut off]. that's 18 thousand cavalry [including armored cars which count as two each, and horse holders who only count when my guys are mounted or as a reserve for combat purposes] plus another 450 artillery pieces in your rear area. going to make re-enforcing a pain in the butt for you :)

and i'm getting re-enforcements [or, if I'm desperate, can pull up my defensive guys from the south west.] at which point i shall assault the [theoretically weakened forts] properly with siege guns and so on. if you pull into them and re-enforce the forts, I'll not only do that, but be sending more troops across the gaps. if you pull back, you have to face the cavalry in the open.

i think it all works quite neatly, actually. i also intend to garrison and fortify that gap. but even if i don't and you close it up again... I've still got 18 thousand cavalry and 450 guns. i simply come back and break it again *laughs*

the word here is Blitz. stopping to take forts when i can cut them off, weaken them, and deal with them later... that's not blitzy.

regarding the artillery.... it's entirely possible that i had scouts up ahead before the guns got there mark where to put them and what direction to face etc. information and speed are the two things i have in abundance.

i should probably have written it down, but... *shrugs* i sorta took it as a given that if they wanted to hit where they were aiming, they'd actually do something about being able to aim at it in the first place.

actually, having scouts mark the area ahead of time is a Napoleonic tactic, if i remember rightly, possibly even earlier. admittedly it was originally for camps, but i don't see why it couldn't easily be adapted to artillery deployment.

actually, given how close i had my infantry get before i Began the bombardment, it's kinda silly to assume i Hadn't done something to ensure my aim was good enough to not blast them.

anyway, I'm going to go read the IC post again. and then respond. i actually have some of the scenes sorted in my head already [including the loss of a leviathan to fire and the general response to it by my guys. ]

That's all very well and it's easy enough to scout somehting but to match up coardinates in the dark with those provided. (Markers were used as early as French Indian war and again probably earlier.) Still difficult to see in the dark and effectiveness would be low at best and probably stir up some glances towards the border. But as I've given you power there it is completely your choice.

Note: You'll have to destroy at least one fort to make even a small corridor all the gun fire though the heavy guns which overlap in range are going to be hard pressed to hit cavalry but if you plan on moving up said armored cars it is advisable you take out one. There is a much more powerful army In Blunderburg, and if you cant manage to get a sizeable army inside the border soon they will retaliate.

anyways, in light of all this information here, can we get an edit on your last post so i can actually respond to what is please, Waldenburg, rather than a product of miss-communication?

This is getting out of hand, not to critisize anyone because we're all (or at least, Anj, Waldenburg and myself) guilty of drawing this out with the most noble of intentions. But honestly Anj make the post and then we can see what we shall see. Any criticisms of the actual post should, of course, be put down in writing but other than that we have drawn out this process far too much.

anyways, in light of all this information here, can we get an edit on your last post so i can actually respond to what is please, Waldenburg, rather than a product of miss-communication?


I'm afraid i'm still out on 'what is' nor do I have the time at the moment to edit such a ridicolously long post to the information that, I cannot honestly say I accept. As I have given you power on the line, and the Zeppelin attacks seem to be smoothed out you should have no problem.

Bautzen quite right, this has taken up far to much of our time, and quite possibly has killed the Rp. Post though and we shall see what the night brings.

simply put, i have to put up with enough of this shit in far too many places.

i can't make my post until i know what is actually There and Happening.

i can't Know that until Waldengburg's post is corrected.

and if he keeps coming up with New Things that i should Already Know About, after saying they weren't there, I'm just going to abandon this all together.

not to mention the insanity of a gun large enough to fire at that range that can hit moving armourd cars [quite possibly the fastest land unit avialable at the time] that were aimed ALONG the lines, but can't hit a horseman.

there are issues of traverse, of the same problems he's claiming I have on a much larger scale, and more.

let alone the fact that if they have the range to fire over the boarder i would have invaded as they were being built [years ago, icly]

there's more. it just keeps going.

Here's an idea just post your attack and Waldenburg will pick out what he disagrees with. Post it to be along the lines of what you originally thought you are engaging and we'll take it from there.

I did say there were 10 inch naval guns (the range of a 12 inch is 17 miles on a dreadnaught), if your armored cars are planning to head over trenches they can be taken out there, after that most things are faster then heavy artillery. All of this is in my factbook, heavy artillery with a defensive army, and an offensive navy.

I'm afraid from your one paragraph attack posts I've mostly been forced to guess as to what your doing, the same problem can be attached to me, not explaining the defeses enough but really what would you expect from the paranoid, Imperialistic Waldenburg? I said it wouldn't be a cake walk and that should have hinted, well it wouldn't, there's bound to be artillery there's bound to be barbed wire, I can't explain ever square inch of defense.

with that in mind, I agree win Anger to much Shit In too many places, and we should abandon it all togeatehr.

There has been far more of a problem than there should have been.

However, while there have been issues on both sides, the entire concept behind the defence is flawed, whereas Anj's attack has problems with specifics like the placement of the artillery.

Waldenburg, you seem to be expecting to effectively defend your border, or at least cause significant casualties, with an extremely sparsely defended trench-line, and a bunch of heavy artillery stuck in four forts along a very broad front.

Assuming the guns in the forts are mounted in such a way as to be effective...they'll still face a major issue of having no real idea of where to fire. They'll be unable to see the majority of the area they're (theoretically) capable of firing on, and even on occasions where you have intelligence on where they should fire...unless you have a ridiculous number of guns, they're going to be a disruptive nuisance, not a show stopper.

However, I do have a suggestion for how to move forward.

How to move on? Possibly...
The trench-line has fallen where Anj attacked it. The two of you state your casualties and move on from there.
Waldenburg: you pull all your men off the trench line. They're no good to you there. Concentrate them somewhere, perhaps near the forts, ready to fight back effectively rather than be defeated in detail.
Also accept that guns based in the forts will be of, at best, limited effect against mobile troops. Now, against a force setting up to take/destroy the forts, that's a different issue.
Oh, and if you could remind us all of when you expect to have more troops ready, and how many (just a basic: full mobilisation in 2 months, half way takes 5 weeks, so another ten thousand in three weeks time. Something like that) that'd be good.

Anj, I would suggest that you take the trench lines, as Waldenburg has already stated you can; post losses assuming that (through erroneous intelligence) you did attack a concentration of *however many men has been stated*.
Then break through. Get your forces on the other side of those trenches ready to play merry hell. And if the forts fire on your men at extreme range...RP reasonable losses, considering all the factors involved.

Seriously guys, this is doable. If you really don't have time, Waldenburg, give me control of your army in Denmark, and let me do it. I can assure you, I'll do a reasonable job of it, and things can keep moving.
There is no reason the whole RP should die over this.

ugh. yeah. sorry this is dragging on. doesn't help that a bunch of unrelated things have been piling up as well. makes one a little ... tense.

I'd like to think that in my case it's mostly forgetting to mention stuff. which is easily fixed if necessary.

i was always going to take casualties, and intended to include such. takes a bit for me to get ideas sorted in my head if we skip things, and thus my rp gets a bit... choppy... for want of a better word, until i get a grip on it again.

anyway, whatever happens, I'll take another look at this tomorrow and see what can be done.

i can, to a large extent, accept that he could have managed to get more troops in place. actually, up to a point, That works in my favor. I'm more worried about this larger army that is mentioned. oocly i asked what i would be facing. i was told that ti was the 10 thousand on the line, and that it would take [icly anyway] weeks, at least, before any more troops would be around. now I'm told that if i don't get done "soon" an entire army is sitting in some city close enough by that they can show up and cause me problems.

now it Could be that i missed something, but it doesn't Seem to be so... and a certain siege comes to mind every time something like this happens.

hopefully we can resolve this quickly now. *le sigh goes here*

This will not turn into Bambinio. I'm confident in that, because if it gets close, when HT has time he can lay the smack down on it.

Another way is to elect a war moderator, I remeber that in some thread. That would easily solve all our porblems as we could eliminate all pointless bickering with one grandeous sweep of His Modliships hand.

At the moment I have time (IE beginning of weekend) so if Anj will post the fall of the trenches I can continue moderator or not (Even though I always perer with Mod.)

In response to HT in the main thread, yes I Won't lauch any naval offensives against you, just a few bobmardments of my closer enemies cities at most.

As for ten thousand on the line, I said in unlawful Annexation and on the Signup thread that mobilization was beginning, by the time of your attack it was going on for 6 days. I don't remeber what page of the signups, but on page seven of Unlawful I bring up mobilization. Due to the small size of Denmark and it's infastructure in Jutland mobilization is fast. 10,000 was the skeleton garrison if you had attacked instantly.

Waldenburg what sort of defences can I expect in Newfoundland.

Also 80% of people who died in WWI (excluding sickness) where killed by machine guns not Artillery.

Waldenburg what sort of defences can I expect in Newfoundland.

Also 80% of people who died in WWI (excluding sickness) where killed by machine guns not Artillery.

Fairly light, artillery batteries at most, no proper forts and most of the troops have been drawn down, to the more Important east coast American provinces. there are two fortified provinces (The two that guard baffin) there you can expect forts and trenches and naval guns. Although even there the troops are being drawn south to defend against Illar's invasion.

Waldenburg what sort of defences can I expect in Newfoundland.

Also 80% of people who died in WWI (excluding sickness) where killed by machine guns not Artillery.

Says who I wonder, please do not cite wikipedia as I may go on a rant if you do. While this isnt directly relevant I feel the need to reply to this. And I quote:

"For the first time in history, and from the begining of the war to the end, artillary dominated. It did more killing between 1914 and 1918 than any other weapon."(Meyer, 226).

On a more relevant note I too think that a war mod wouldnt be a bad idea so we dont end up "shouting" at each other over tiny things until the sun goes nova.

Says who I wonder, please do not cite wikipedia as I may go on a rant if you do. While this isnt directly relevant I feel the need to reply to this. And I quote:

"For the first time in history, and from the begining of the war to the end, artillary dominated. It did more killing between 1914 and 1918 than any other weapon."(Meyer, 226).

On a more relevant note I too think that a war mod wouldnt be a bad idea so we dont end up "shouting" at each other over tiny things until the sun goes nova.

My school's history textbooks but it said in combat so mabey artillary killed more people off the battlefield.

My school's history textbooks but it said in combat so mabey artillary killed more people off the battlefield.

It was probably referring to deaths in battles themselves, what you have to realize is that in WWI most of the time troops "only" had to worry about snipers, and artillary, and trench raids, most of the time they werent charging straight into the teeth of machine guns. Keep in mind the following quote (I'm not going to look up the exact wording but I believe this is how it goes).

"War is a long period of extreme boredom, punctuated by brief moments of pure terror."

or, you know, the text books could be wrong.

wouldn't be the first time. maths is about the only subject that's truly reliable in that regard.

[not saying that's what it is, but it's a thought]

or, you know, the text books could be wrong.

wouldn't be the first time. maths is about the only subject that's truly reliable in that regard.

[not saying that's what it is, but it's a thought]

Who knows I rarely actually read textbooks in regards to history because I see it as a sort of futile enterprise because they can only teach you so much, and most of the rest is propoganda. Usually I'll just read books on the topic and maybe use a textbook chapter as a sort of overview. I also prefer first hand sources and to read multiple views on a single event/series of events; because, in case you hadnt noticed, I'm rather paranoid when it comes to bias, and well most things too but thats a different story...

heh. just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you :D

i'm... looking into a partial solution to this... [well, to me getting all strung out about it, anyway :D] that doesn't involve abandoning it.

Ok but you can't deny that machine guns (along with Treaties) where a huge part of what made WWI what it was so excuse me for going by what I was told in school. You know Canadian high school students always being filled filled with propoganda.

machine guns were very nasty, and they were a large part of what resulted in such insanely high casualty rates when attempts to assault trenches were made. this is true.

well, that and incompetence on the part of most of the command staff at the level that made the relevant decisions.

heck, 80% of casualties in Those situations wouldn't surprise me [take out the 'of' from that sentence and it Still wouldn't surprise me]

but there is a battle, and then there is the war over all.

and if Canada's anything like NZ [and I'm told it is, in a lot of ways] ... you'd be amazed how much propaganda there is in the mix. even if it's Old propaganda that just got absorbed into the general view point and accepted reality somewhere along the way.

In all seriousness, Waldenburg, do you have or can you get IM?

It will make sorting this out and getting the RP moving much easier. Be it MSN, Trillian, GAIM, whatever. After all, we've had several things needing discussion, that have taken multiple posts and days to clear up, which could have been arranged by one brief conversation.

In all seriousness, Waldenburg, do you have or can you get IM?

It will make sorting this out and getting the RP moving much easier. Be it MSN, Trillian, GAIM, whatever. After all, we've had several things needing discussion, that have taken multiple posts and days to clear up, which could have been arranged by one brief conversation.

Oh oh I somehow managed to download Yahoo Messenger, not quite sure how it works but I have it. My name is lordmangoiii, if that helps though I'm not quite sure it does everytime I open it comes up with some sort of box that keeps playing Rule Brittania and inviting me somewhere. Is that normal, or should I get a different IM?

As for propaganda and machine guns you have to look at it in the amout of use, 1.8 million shells were fired by the Germans alone at the Somne, whereas they only charged a few times. I'd say in a battle situation a machine gun would be more effective but when you lay around in trenches all day the artillery is going to be more of a threat. As for what we are taught at American schools is simply that it's lucky if any Frenchman or Commonwealth soldier could even stand up, and the war only ended with one American division strangeling every German soldier. I've always wondered how education outside America differs from that it's probbaly less biased, easily.

We in the UK do not get fed propoganda death to the barbaric Hun scum that rapes children

Golf Club...what is that meant to mean? Or do I not want to know.

And equally, would you find yourself in breach of forum rules if we could understand what you'd said?

Ok but you can't deny that machine guns (along with Treaties) where a huge part of what made WWI what it was so excuse me for going by what I was told in school. You know Canadian high school students always being filled filled with propoganda.

I wouldnt dispute that, no one could thats really the reason why it bogged down because no one felt like charging right at a couple hundred machine guns. Besides everyone dishes out propoganda no matter where you live, I'm from the US we dish out winners propoganda as I'm sure Canada does to. Remember "History is written by the winners," its just easier to get an opposing point of view these days 'cause everyone and their mother think that they are an expert on everything.:)

EDIT: Terror I think Donhagee meant that as a joke because it was one of the things that the British and Allied Press fed their people during the war.

"OOC I realize that Anj may not have a city where Flensburg is, but as I have asked him at least twice for a list of cities and defenses (probably lost in all the shouting, God knows i misread a few things), I will go ahead with this one. Originally the plan was to involve Kiel and possibly a manuever up the channel, but that's a lot more then Flensburg to assume. Anyway Flensburg is an excellcent place for a city, despite the obvious artillery range but in Rl they didn't have to worry about that from the Danish."


never saw that request. i basically don't read my telegrams, if you asked that way.

my fact book has a list of cities, though i don't remember if i said where they are. i believe i said that most of them were either roughly in the middle of their territories or ports. and i did say, i believe, that RL cities etc were basically not there.

so... you're aiming at a city that's not there [which isn't to say you're aiming at nothing, just that i need to look into what actually is there.]

actually, on further consideration, it Is there, but the baltic has never been significant to the Reich, and as such it's no more developed or large or whatever than any of the other little border-ish places.

so you can aim at it, but as a choice of targets it's pretty arbitrary.


i really need a competent cartographer with the time and inclination to help me map this stuff. *sigh*

for now, go with "the RL places are there, but most of them are just small towns/villages even if they aren't/weren't IRL"

and another post by me:

"Anj/Waldenburg border, east.

the attack began in the simplest of manners. in the dark, the dismounted soldiers of the Reich had crept as close as they dared to the Waldenburg lines, and when the signal was given, they charged. roughly four thousand five hundred men in five waves charged a stretch of trench line slightly less than two kilometers wide, defended by less no more than half a battalion."

ok, finally found where that 4500 number comes from. [thanks Incognitia for pointing that out]

now, i don't know how or why the heck i did that, but it's an error. a very large error. it Should read ten thousand.

i can edit if you'd like.

OOC Anj you don't have to edit if you like but would have saved a bit of confusion;) I know I can't go through mine and edit out all the errors, of course it would be nice but not expected of you. Fair enough on the city. As a note mine are fairly close to their repsective positions on the map, just renamed (Except in Sweden where I moved them a bit but we shouldn't have to deal with that at the moment.)

Terror: 10,000 Men was the skeleton garrison at the original forts before mobilization began 6\7 days ago (Not quite sure which) Due to the size of the country and the railroads crossing it regularly that number was at 40,000 when Anj invaded a man every two meters, which has been shattered. The entire line (or what remains of it) 32,000 are falling back to their respective forts, or command bases. The entire line is breaking for a counter attack or just regroup, after reading the post I made, I see how the confusion could have started. Luckily for Anj it takes a lot more time to organize my army then it does to throw rifles on their shoulders, which is a bit of a draw back, perfeect to be killed but not good enough to fight back.

edited to fix numbers.

i think the big problem is that "mobilization" includes all the organization and everything else needed to make the unit combat ready. until they are, you can't really Use them.

so when you start saying you've got those men on hand, people think they're ready to move out.

there's no way That's happening in 6 days.

that's where that round of confusion kicks in.

or so it seems to me, anyways.

edited to fix numbers.

i think the big problem is that "mobilization" includes all the organization and everything else needed to make the unit combat ready. until they are, you can't really Use them.

so when you start saying you've got those men on hand, people think they're ready to move out.

there's no way That's happening in 6 days.

that's where that round of confusion kicks in.

or so it seems to me, anyways.


Total mobilization surely is, but these men are just arriving on the line, they techinically won't be ready to fight till their units assemble. Lose verbalage in this case, their units are in shambles and without some serious time to regroup they're going to be mostly inefective, as you could see by their pathetic show on the line. Technically we're still in mobilization which is getting ready for war, being mobilizied is ready to make and render war.

so you're sending partially trained, disorganized infantry...:confused:

to fight borderline elite cavalry..... on the flat and openness that is denmark etc....
:eek:






excuse me while i die of laughter. :p



we might see an effective mounted cavalry charge in this war yet :D

[sorry about the smilies, but i think my statements needed them :) ]

so you're sending partially trained, disorganized infantry...:confused:

to fight borderline elite cavalry..... on the flat and openness that is denmark etc....
:eek:






excuse me while i die of laughter. :p



we might see an effective mounted cavalry charge in this war yet :D

[sorry about the smilies, but i think my statements needed them :) ]

No, no they were appropriate, I suppose the Emperor didnt think this one out too much now did he? We shall have a charge of the Light brigade yet in this RP! All I ask Anj is that you allow my war correspondants exclusivity...please...maybe...hopefully:).

The bodies will eventually slow you down till the Birds of Prey have had their disrupters charged....Then you will be vaporizeid in under three weeks.

Although seriously i don't have much of a choice, it was a fast manuever one which I (Personally and as waldenburg) did not see coming, well until you said you were of course (I really hope Germany dosen't go darkside too. Anj I can manage in time, but if Germany turns all my evil plans fail in seconds) . And what else does Waldenburg have other then poorly organizied partially trained soldiers?

Now if were debauching on smiley's I have always wanted to use the sniper:
:sniper:
well worth two years of waiting.

heh. i don't think you have to worry about Germany Too much unless you do something stupid. they're more likely to attack me than you, i suspect.

and come now, how can I be on the dark side? I'm the friken Kingdom of Angels here. hehehehehehe.

i shall now wander off as cavalry with gleaming sabers cut bloody swathes through their foes in my head :D

Sorry Bautzen, you've already lost exclusivity, viz my post from Hugo Nicholls 'embedded' with the Anj cavalry :p

Equally, if you want to run the link-up with my fleet? Or I can, doesn't bother me.

ok... with the levithans....

two ports each got hit by 7 leviathans [a different 7 for each port] while the other attacks were made. each leviathan has a pair of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_75_mod%C3%A8le_1897 and about 10 minutes worth of ammo for each, if i remember rightly.

each leviathan is also carrying 4 bombs. [modified battleship shells]

i have a couple of scenes regarding the loss of a leviathan or two in mind, But...

oh, just a short and important fact: the leviathan's main guns out range your rockets, Waldenburg. over double it in fact. in fact, if they just stay back and shoot, being all dark and far away in the night and so on, you probably won't even see them beyond as muzzle flashes.

meaning they're only really vulnerable, in a situation such as this, when making their bombing runs.

ugh. I've really lost the plot for this campaign though.
i still have a Plan. but no plot.

................ one of these days I'm going to actually have a decent map available in one of these RPs.

sorry, my brain's going screwy on me now....


summery of events at the western naval base based on speaking to a guy i know who's actually Been in the navy, bouncing ideas off of incognitia and others, and my own thinking:

the first 3 airships to make their bombing runs, which include the Eden and the Ifrit, they're going to hit and sink 2 ships, and at least damage a third. given that they're going for the biggest combat ships they can find, it's those ones.

then the Ifrit gets nailed by rocketry. it pulls out, Upwards in an attempt to get more range and stifle fire, and attempts to turn back towards the Reich, as well as out to see. it's crew bail [employing parachutes. it's viable] if it's impossible to save. the airship either makes it home, or crashes into the ocean on the way. the third airship may or may not be hit, and may or may not go the same way. the Eden does not.

the 4 leviathans standing off and using their guns promptly target and [theoretically] destroy the rocket batteries, [rockets giving a Very clear marker of their launch point]. they, and the eden [possibly also the third 'ship that Was bombing] then proceed to put artillery rounds into any and all defenses they can, before the 4 that have Not dropped their bombs come in, one at a time so as to provide cover for each other, and bomb the biggest combat ships left in the harbor.

any ships attempting to escape, or left intact, get torpedoed by the swordfish submarines [HK designation] sitting outside the port. some small ones and/or subs may escape. some swordfish Might sink. [i think there's 10. i would find it unlikely that I'd lose more than two, and That would only be if something went really screwy.]

i May lose one or two leviathans to fire from ships' main guns. however, in the dark with only muzzle flashes to aim at, in port, taken by surprise, that seems extremely unlikely.

upshot of all this: one totaled naval base, many totaled ships. Anima class airships have anti-rocket armor.


what happens at the eastern naval base would be... similar... though there the subs are sitting up at the straights, so your ships Can escape into the Baltic. also it depends on your defenses. situations range from "total destruction of port with no losses" to losing up to half the task force, inflicting heavy damage, and withdrawing. it is Possible that they'd decide to begin with a bombardment first and Then bomb, rather than both at once.

lost leviathans would be ditched in the sea rather than letting waldenburg get hold of them, if at all possible.


western land thing, the trench line loses MGs and officers and so on to the infiltration unit, is assaulted, goes smush.

if you can write the scenes at the naval bases, and possibly the western land one, from that, Waldenburg, we can move on quickly. if you can't, or it gets all messy again, we can see about getting one of the others to write it.

like i said, i have some idea of my next movements... but I'm going to have to think them through an get some geographic knowledge before i can implement them, and this needs to get out the way.

That seems all well and good. A couple of things the navy is mobilizied (Fully and ready, I started that before the army) there shouldn't be anything important left at the bases but practically everything is going to be blundering about. And just as a note you could enter any amount of small ships (Mostly submarines) into the Balitc via the Kiel canal, although now it will be guarded. And they wouldn't be in the straits that even in Rl was one of the most heavily guarded and lit waterways in the world, it's more likely that they appear near Sounderburg themselves as we are not in the kiel canal. (The Oresund is an average of 4 Km's wide two minimum and comparatively shallow. Any submarines going through there would be spotted.)

Waldenburg I need to know what the status of your Black Sea Fleet is, i.e. what port are they based out of. I believe that they're based out of Kansiov but I'm unsure what the terms of that agreement are so hopefully you'll clarify this for me so I can move along with my fleets domination of yours.

actually, the canal is apparently mine. [I'm not sure quite weither you were saying that or not]

at any rate, i didn't want them getting stuck in the Baltic, and it was going to be kind of blatantly obvious if i was sending them through the canals. so, they're sitting in a position to blockade the straight. [which doesn't mean they're In it.]

even if most of your ships aren't in the bases, that's a lot of ammunition and fuel, and probably a lot of the support ships Are. anyways, i'll give you most of your ships being long gone happily enough. it's annoying strategically, but fair enough :)

just means i get to run the subs in wolf-packs later and sink support ships now [which, at the least, will reduce the effectiveness of the combat ships relying on them].

also means your ships will have to re-base and so on.

edit: i get the feeling you're missing something too, Waldenburg, but i can't think what. I'm betting it's either something to do with the eastern naval base or the western land attack though.

anywhos, the next phase of the plan is to make use of the RES to locate one of your gathering points for your poor infantry....

and attack it with the cavalry :)

so i need some details before i can actually write that.

shall i post a causality list of my own?

oh, and with the RES, after this, or maybe the next time, feel free to go spy hunting :) i'll even let you catch some. their SOP is mostly to recruit locals to do the actual information gathering, but there are still agents cruising around running things. i expect you'd catch some, some would go to ground, some would simply lose a few [or lot] of their sources, some would pull out... and some would get missed completely, making them that much more effective later.

Yeah, why dont you post up some casualties, ninja boy.

Yep the kiel Canal is yours and is a bit of a slaughtering ground (Just hoping you might want to send the fleet down it at a whim from your opponent....) Those were fairly minor bases the north fleet is supplied out of Norway and baltic from copenhagen but this will make some hell if I try to sail down towards you now, no offensive in that direction then.

As for attacking my troop centers I think that starts getting into the range of you're probably going to have to find them now, those cavalry of yours are going to have to do some merciless sweeping. (It's safe to assume they're in Tander and Sounderborg though as they are the major cities on the front, if you take the castle and those the army of the line will be a leaderless mob. Which will probably be more effective then the governing class but meh.)

Wow, ninja boy, you seem to have gotten a good casualty exchange here. If you can keep this up you may not even need our help.

ninja very stealthy. gather good intelligence. strike from the shadows. fewer losses.

unfortunately, i doubt that will keep working, and it's kinda hard for a whole country to pull the "ninja vanish" trick all at once.

so... yah, I'll be needing help. i expect to Keep getting a good casualty exchange, mostly, but you gotta realize how horribly outnumbered i am here :(

ninja very stealthy. gather good intelligence. strike from the shadows. fewer losses.

unfortunately, i doubt that will keep working, and it's kinda hard for a whole country to pull the "ninja vanish" trick all at once.

so... yah, I'll be needing help. i expect to Keep getting a good casualty exchange, mostly, but you gotta realize how horribly outnumbered i am here :(

Still, quite impressive, young tadpole, your ninja nation is mighty powerful.

hey, Waldenburg, regarding finding your guys to attack:

the RES are my spies. Riech Espionage Service. it's kinda hard to miss such massive mobilization.

i don't even need to know where All of them are. only one.

or the general area so that my guys don't spend weeks just trying to Find the enemy.

hey, Waldenburg, regarding finding your guys to attack:

the RES are my spies. Riech Espionage Service. it's kinda hard to miss such massive mobilization.

i don't even need to know where All of them are. only one.

or the general area so that my guys don't spend weeks just trying to Find the enemy.

Major mobilization is 40,000 men? (At least on the line so far) Most of the soldiers I had were on the line. As for the rest, I gave you two places each one on other sides of the line. (Not to mention the rather obvious castle.)

@Bautzen: Can we assume that my fleet has met up with yours, and they're moving on together to Waldenburg? Had enough of that ;)

Waldenburg I need to know what the status of your Black Sea Fleet is, i.e. what port are they based out of. I believe that they're based out of Kansiov but I'm unsure what the terms of that agreement are so hopefully you'll clarify this for me so I can move along with my fleets domination of yours.

Sorry didn't post on this sooner.

They're hiding in his waters waiting for you to need reinforcements elsewhere before they strike (Mostly at shipping) They are above standard they are well maintained and well commanded, though still out of date. Still they hide wating for a strike.

Waldenburg lets just say your hitting the city of Point Herring (a fishing town of course) in the somewhat southern area of my Norwegian province.

Other cities in Norwegian Jagaro as we will refer to it for now include
Cork: a northern costal town
Andrewstown: inland capital the area named after the prince's father
Port Raven: south central costal fishing town
Copper: nothern inland mining town

Also just for the record I don't recal you asking for a list towns.

Sorry didn't post on this sooner.

They're hiding in his waters waiting for you to need reinforcements elsewhere before they strike (Mostly at shipping) They are above standard they are well maintained and well commanded, though still out of date. Still they hide wating for a strike.

They still have to have a port of call, otherwise they would run out of fuel, and quickly. I may not know ICly where that is originally but they have to have a port somewhere as they need provisions. Also if they are making port in his territory I will see that as the assitance of a belligerent nation by a neutral and will be justified in a declaration of war against him. Which, since I believe he has been fairly inactive would consist of me showing up, blowing your fleet out of the water, and then dictating terms to his (possibly defunct) government.
__________________________________

TI: Yeah, thats fine we'll just say that they moved off and are headed towards Illar.

EDIT: Waldenburg your using Chemical agents on a city? Thats going to be a huge atrocity losses in the thousands, maybe even tens of thousands!

Jagaro: Fair enough anything of your choice. I did ask for a list of cities admittedly it was a long time ago, probably page two or three of this thread and considering how fast we were posting I imagine a lot of things were missed.

Bautzen: The fleet does, it's a foreign dispatch fleet, technically it's an exclave of Waldenburg inside Kasinov. (The base it tucked in between Herzel and Kasinov sort of sheltered by the Herzel outcropping. Still in Kasinov but near there.)

Yep, although more like a town according to Jagaro which is fine. Luckily most powers don't have the ability to bombard my cities it a similar fashion (At least from sea) even Illar probably won't risk a huge bombardemnt for very long without severely risking his surface ships to my submarine navy. And I doubt if many will (Probably not you at least since in your IC declaration you said freeing the Waldenburg People was a goal, I.E not killing them.) And as a side note can you guess with what the Kasinov dispatch fleet has been armed if you don't move fast? I did saw in Unlawful I'd planned my retaliation before my strike.

Relative Liberty: I'll continue in a fashion if I had received the note, you are not directly supporting my wars and the rest of it.

couple of things here:

1, i need to get around to doing the bombardment of that town out properly.

2, i'm Really curious about how it's a good idea to not only wreck a town [civilian population and so on] with naval bombardment in a territory you hope to pacify and absorb....

the gas just strikes me as a bad idea. you're going to have rebels there For Ever if you do it at all realistically [ok, maybe not in That town... but still].


[did anyone else notice him doing that? scary!]

edit the third: bwahahahhaahaha! i is clever! I'm going to send the 15 leviathan trundling around over Denmark at high altitude with it's nice little radio... and i'm'a gonna Find those troopies, yes i is.

edit: and Waldenburg, can i get a summery of the information available to my guys please? the things my Marshal [general equivalent] would actually know so he can plan his campaign.

edit the second: allowing for the RES agents running around your empire. most of what they send would be accurate, if a bit vague. some of it would not be. some of it would be perfectly accurate and 100% on the detail. "the enemy is here with this!" like.

couple of things here:

1, i need to get around to doing the bombardment of that town out properly.

2, i'm Really curious about how it's a good idea to not only wreck a town [civilian population and so on] with naval bombardment in a territory you hope to pacify and absorb....

the gas just strikes me as a bad idea. you're going to have rebels there For Ever if you do it at all realistically [ok, maybe not in That town... but still].


[did anyone else notice him doing that? scary!]

edit the third: bwahahahhaahaha! i is clever! I'm going to send the 15 leviathan trundling around over Denmark at high altitude with it's nice little radio... and i'm'a gonna Find those troopies, yes i is.

edit: and Waldenburg, can i get a summery of the information available to my guys please? the things my Marshal [general equivalent] would actually know so he can plan his campaign.

edit the second: allowing for the RES agents running around your empire. most of what they send would be accurate, if a bit vague. some of it would not be. some of it would be perfectly accurate and 100% on the detail. "the enemy is here with this!" like.

On the bombardemnt it is very difficult to have a rebellion when you are being stappled upside down inside a arc furnace. Waldenburg has no qualms about pacification through steel, those who survive will have obidence breed in and those are the people I'd want anyway. If rebellions happen we burn entire villages publivly execute those we beleive behind it. Waldenburg makes the Nazis look like Seaseme Street in this respect, as a partial theocracy we're very good at this sort of thing.

As for the zeppelin it will probably go unoticed for now but use that sort of thing often and we'll see it (Even at High altitude). Not that Waldenburg can do much about it, I think we have a total of two military Zeppelins and about a dozen planes.

The bombardemnt on Flensburg is not a gas attack just plain everyday explosive shells.

Now that you have a plausible explenation though I can go into detail on it: The main body of troops that still is a threat to you is the Army of Blunderbürg, over 100,000 men where copenhagen is, that's fairly obvious and they will start moving in a counteroffensive soon enough. The army of the line is spread out at their forts and occasionally hiding in trenches or laying low in the countryside. They're very disorganizied, but they will seek safety in numbers and reform on the forts once your army is safely away. Tander has about a regiment of troops in it along with a sizeable detachment of the ISS ((Imperial Special Service) The dreaded secret police that aren't to secret or really that dreaded) Most of the light artillery that would have gone with the Army of the Line should it have marched is being hurriedly shipped out despite what is needed for the defense of the city.

In Sounderburg there is a penisula leading out to the city which has been fortified though not manned as there are only abut one brigade in the city. What little is left of the patrol navy (From the attacked east naval base) that was stationed there is guarding the penisula patrol ships and maybe a couple of even older reserve destroyers.)

There are several constructions all over the country which used to be Iron Age castles, the buildings are gone but the mounds are still there and they have been armed (Very lightly) most of them are unmanned but a few of the ones closer to cities have a slight troop presence (About a company) in total in Denmark there is about 55,000 troops (Not counting those in Copenhagen) obviously about 40,000 of them you have already met.

Anyhting I missed that could be helpful but otherwise you have a fairly clear run of it.

Movements spoken of in the IC post are made by the following:
~1 Dreadnaught Class Battleship (King James I)
~1 Pre-Dreadnaught Battleship (King Charles I)
~5 Armored Cruisers
~5 Light Cruisers
~5 Destroyers
~30 Torpedo Boats
~Numerous support ships (I.E. Hospital ships, ammo ships, fuel tankers, etc.)

Date stamp for the begining of movement is June 10th, arrival off coast is June 14th.

@ Bautzen: I believe Nerom is intending to send 'volunteers' to aid Waldenburg, much as Italy, Germany etc did during the Spanish Civil War.
His problem is, that being landlocked and with no border on Waldenburg, he has no way of getting men, equipment or anything else to the required place.
So he is trying to get Germany to help in getting the Nerom volunteers to Waldenburg.
Even if Germany said yes, which I think unlikely, I'm still not sure it would work.

@ Bautzen: I believe Nerom is intending to send 'volunteers' to aid Waldenburg, much as Italy, Germany etc did during the Spanish Civil War.
His problem is, that being landlocked and with no border on Waldenburg, he has no way of getting men, equipment or anything else to the required place.
So he is trying to get Germany to help in getting the Nerom volunteers to Waldenburg.
Even if Germany said yes, which I think unlikely, I'm still not sure it would work.

I thought that it was somthing along those lines, but he wrote it in such a way that I was unsure about it. Rather confusing.

OOC Germany has no reason to disagree, they are unarmed planes flown by a neutral power (They are unarmed so longs as there aren't any bombs, as they are bombers. I've also asked for the overhead machine gun (Not the synxhronizied sort) to be removed so they hopefully will be unarmed till they get to Waldenburg.) As for not working, even without going over the Anjian province it is less then 90 miles from Rostock to Denmark.

I don't see to many flaws in the plans unless Germany dosen't agree.

Bautzen it is an encripted message how does Bautzen know what i am doing

Bautzen the Player knows what you're doing because you posted it on the forums.

Bautzen the Nation probably doesn't. but if he does, the only answer is "he has better spies than you"


however, i think you'll find that at this point, No one has a clue what you're Actually saying, they're just guessing. ... your encryption-fu is to strong for us :P

If you notice all I said is that your "making noises," which since your obviously so fond of code means your up to something we just dont know what.

As far as it goes OOCly I'm wondering what type of "volunteers" your sending are you just sending a few bombers?

"It appears that they are trying to draw Germany into an alliance which they plan on using against t[h]e coalition."
Along with making noises, it's a bit of a jump.

Although oppositely

Message to the People of Nerom:
Nerom's will you sit back while the people of Waldenbourg be bullied? No is my answer. If it is yours join the Waldenbourg International Defense Corps? To fight for freedom, we receive no backing from the government. But we will receive a good wage and good food join today.

He's publiclly raising a battlion so it's hard to hide but it will take time to come to the above conclusion. And as OOC reference we aren't trying to draw germany onto The Waldenburg Side (Though that would be quite nice) I'm just trying bomb that heavily exposed Anjian army rampaging across central Denmark, without air support (Majorly, that can be sent to fight bombers) or major supply lines that can't be cut by my troops within minutes.

What I'm not allowed to come to incorrect conclusions ICly? I'd have thought that you would like to know that my intelligence net isnt perfect. Though admittedly I probably dont invest to much into a good net in such a weak nation.

Also, how is he getting the battalion into your territory, the bombers ok if they fly into Germany, but are you also looking to have him alow you to move a whole battalion in something he may be wary to do. That is because if he can do it why not I, would be the sentiment.

What I'm not allowed to come to incorrect conclusions ICly? I'd have thought that you would like to know that my intelligence net isnt perfect. Though admittedly I probably dont invest to much into a good net in such a weak nation.

Also, how is he getting the battalion into your territory, the bombers ok if they fly into Germany, but are you also looking to have him alow you to move a whole battalion in something he may be wary to do. That is because if he can do it why not I, would be the sentiment.

That's not really my point, one letter is not making noise, one diplomatic note with all the thousands that would realistically be going around, that is not making noise. Especially between two neutral powers that you have no idea that are approching a (sort of) stage of hostilities. There's simply no reason one letter, a very short one is making "noise." Even if you had spies in the palace of Germany or in Nerom itself, would a telegram delivered to the government be such a huge intereast for spies when hundreds, realistically, arrive everyday.

As for the battlion I think it's to fly the planes over (Could be wrong), and for their neccesary matinence. I think I may risk in this case.

no the Battalion will if Germany agrees travel by train to Germany up to the coast were i think Waldenbourg will pick them up

" And as OOC reference we aren't trying to draw germany onto The Waldenburg Side (Though that would be quite nice) I'm just trying bomb that heavily exposed Anjian army rampaging across central Denmark, without air support (Majorly, that can be sent to fight bombers) or major supply lines that can't be cut by my troops within minutes.
__________________"


what the heck does that even Say?

oh, a note:

last i checked, the tech for heavier than air bombers was official non-existent and not yet unlocked. just a little something to remember. in fact, truth be told, Waldenburg only just acquired a legitimate IC reason to start mounting guns on his aircraft. then, of course, he's got to get the guns and aircraft etc.

something to keep in mind there.

Waldenburg, so far what you've told me about what you're guys are doing Appears self contradictory in a couple of places [for example, you're pulling guys off your line... what happened with he bombardment as a result?] illogical in several others,[how the hell does a single airship net me all the intelligence data when a large and effective spy network that's had years to become entrenched does not?], and I'm quite sure that there's a few places where I've just lost track of what the heck is going on.

i repeat my lament about the lack of maps. [which isn't really a specific complaint beyond 'one of the biggest things i dislike about forum rp']

i can't really do anything until i get this straight.

also, while the [highly secret] Anima class airships won't show up for another few months, those leviathans can be ready for another strike before the day is done, so my guys will have air suppport, of a sort, in very short order.

oh yeah.. "heavily exposed" is grammatically screwed up, they're not more exposed than any other army unit on the move, you abandoned the only positions where you could really cut their supplies effectively and any time soon.

I'm curious as to how the only army with an actual functional combat air force in the world rates as having 'no air support' :S

edit: a little note, but leaving aside for the moment the fact that, last i checked, heavier than air bombers weren't viable tech [show up late war at best, i believe], any available at this point would be slow enough that the leviathans Could shoot them down as easily as ground based artillery, if not more so. biggest threat to Me is fighters, which can take out leviathans as well as strafe ground troops.

remember which war we're fighting here guys :)

" And as OOC reference we aren't trying to draw germany onto The Waldenburg Side (Though that would be quite nice) I'm just trying bomb that heavily exposed Anjian army rampaging across central Denmark, without air support (Majorly, that can be sent to fight bombers) or major supply lines that can't be cut by my troops within minutes.
__________________"


what the heck does that even Say?

oh, a note:

last i checked, the tech for heavier than air bombers was official non-existent and not yet unlocked. just a little something to remember. in fact, truth be told, Waldenburg only just acquired a legitimate IC reason to start mounting guns on his aircraft. then, of course, he's got to get the guns and aircraft etc.

something to keep in mind there.

Waldenburg, so far what you've told me about what you're guys are doing Appears self contradictory in a couple of places [for example, you're pulling guys off your line... what happened with he bombardment as a result?] illogical in several others,[how the hell does a single airship net me all the intelligence data when a large and effective spy network that's had years to become entrenched does not?], and I'm quite sure that there's a few places where I've just lost track of what the heck is going on.

i repeat my lament about the lack of maps. [which isn't really a specific complaint beyond 'one of the biggest things i dislike about forum rp']

i can't really do anything until i get this straight.

also, while the [highly secret] Anima class airships won't show up for another few months, those leviathans can be ready for another strike before the day is done, so my guys will have air suppport, of a sort, in very short order.

oh yeah.. "heavily exposed" is grammatically screwed up, they're not more exposed than any other army unit on the move, you abandoned the only positions where you could really cut their supplies effectively and any time soon.

I'm curious as to how the only army with an actual functional combat air force in the world rates as having 'no air support' :S

edit: a little note, but leaving aside for the moment the fact that, last i checked, heavier than air bombers weren't viable tech [show up late war at best, i believe], any available at this point would be slow enough that the leviathans Could shoot them down as easily as ground based artillery, if not more so. biggest threat to Me is fighters, which can take out leviathans as well as strafe ground troops.

remember which war we're fighting here guys :)

Not quite the air support I was thinking, but techinically yes, I suppose a better phrase would be Air Superirioty for my earlier post. Although would you risk that air support in open battle, 15 Zeppelins has to come very close to the ground to be effective in shooting down planes, close enough for my artillery and spotters, and a lot easier to hit then a plane. As for the machine guns it was simply a badly put togeather web page with a out of order chronology (We've talked about it so many times, I just get hopeful) But as I need guns and aircraft, and I already have the guns.

Anyway as for the bombs I'm thinking off are the hand dropped sort used as early as 1911 (Although slightly bigger in this case.)

As for being exposed, you are in a flatter then usual country surronded by fanatically devout peasants with a limited imagination in the context of social revolution. A very small country where there are limited places to go and very obvious targets. Heavily exposed is what armies do, maybe all of them, but definately yours in this case.

With the large effective spy network, it has always been a bit of a hazy point it.s a god mod to say you have spies in my country (Effective ones at any rate, IE I would be handing them all the information.) without me saying that's fine but it is also a God mod to say that there isn't a way to get them in and for me to say there are no spies. I'm not sure where to go on this one, no one has ever ICily Rped Spies entering my country, I have implied in the past that my security is rather lax. I think I will have to limit you to a fair spy system and in conjunction with the air support and very good system. It is completely my perogative in this case as is it yours with any spies involving your homeland. Waldenburg dosen't often mobilize fully it's land forces, and effectiveness of a spy force is determined by it's net of informants and it's members own position. My people view all aliens to be, near heretical slobbering mad men who despite giving us money we don't like to deal with (the peasant classes especially.) Immigrants are few and far apart and hardly ever rise to anything, because of afore mentioned reason.

Now on the line I stated they were withdrawing back to their commands and posts.

OOC All commands still with communication pull troops back about 32,000 troops are now assembly at which ever post is closest the rest are either being shot up as they run home, or left in the trenches.

From Problems:
If the meaning was lost they are withdrawing to the forts, or in a few of the far flung cases the castle and possibly Tander.

“Possibly later but no not at the moment, though I would like you to hand out the orders to abandon the line, we’re not being attacked here and 10,000 men will hardly do any good in the trenches pull them back here.”


The words of General Hanner from the fort bombing Flensburg (Which is within 9 miles of Flensburg). All this accumulates to we still have about 32,000 disorganizied men in the forts, the trenches are being evacutaed to their respective command posts. As you are fond of pointing out there are approximately 15 kilometers between each fort. Forts which you did not attack. Supplies must go through those lanes, with about 8000 men per fort now (Less where you attacked) You left an army at your back guarding the only (Practical, of course you could fly it in.) supply route for your army.

Your army is surronded and exposed, with a limited chance of resupply. If you attempt resupply without heavy military guard we will spot it, apprehend the supplies. This is the classic military blunder made land armies are on two sides of your army (Navies on the other two if you get close enough) and if Germany allows and army in the air. (Not to mention the mole people :eek:) I really can't see the Anjian army lasting very long, if it crossed so quickly it had to be fairly lightly loaded, eithr it will run out of ammunition or be boxed in and bloodied by my field armies.

Finally as for the position of troops, I tried and apparently failed, so must request more specific questions If proper answers are to be given.

What are you talking about he is perfectly capable of passing supplies through a 15 kilometer radius with none of your troops nearby. He also stated, I believe, that he was positioning troops on the flanks of the trenches he secured.

actually, i think i said somewhere along the way that i was building small field fortifications of my own and hauling artillery into them.

but that may have only been oocly stated.

even if it did get closed behind me though... that's three divisions of Cavalry. one of their main things they Do is raiding. not such a problem as you'd think [though still an issue, admittedly]. they'd have to spread out, but...

anyway, even if you do close it up, it won't close up for long... fun side effect of Illar sending me 900 mm mortars. ....

those things fire a shell 3 feet wide [or near enough] . *laughs* fort busters indeed. though they don't show up for a few days yet.

regarding the spies... every time i went to RP them doing stuff, things kept happening to make it irrelevant. point is though, pretty much everyone has at least Some spies of one sort or another pretty much everywhere. RPing them entering the country was kinda pointless. and i did ask "what information will i get" not say "i know everything because of them". a key distinction that removes all claims of godmoding. provided you don't decide to say they find nothing at all, ever, which Is godmoding.

oh, as for "fanatical peasants"? I'm not even touching that one.

"not going to be another Bambino" my butt.

What are you talking about he is perfectly capable of passing supplies through a 15 kilometer radius with none of your troops nearby. He also stated, I believe, that he was positioning troops on the flanks of the trenches he secured.

In range of guns the whole time (And in retrospect the 75mm cannon has a range of about 7kms, but still a kilometer is enough just thought it was less on the range.) Even if I do not counterattack on those flanks, (which i may add are also in the range of our guns and able to be bombarded) the supplies must pass through the remainder country and to the Anjian army. Without substantial military guard they will be apprehended. Anything that passes through that line of forts will be visable, shelled and cavalry patrols (Or if possible) full brigades will be sent out to capture them. If there in no major guard there is absolutely nothing to stop me from sending out a cavalry unit and wiping out the supplies after they pass the forts.

Just reading Anj's post. Yes if you attack the forts and defeat them they fall, it's just you haven't started. 900mm mortars will indeed work nicely for that. As for Anjian Cavalry it's either support our fight there, tactical choices which could end disaterously either way maybe. It's either keep cavalry in reserve for keeping the supply lanes clean or taking them forward to fight.

ICly if you have constructed forts at the side of the trenches consider them being bombarded, I don't think I can pad that one out to a full post at the moment.

For spies then you have all the information your going to get on troop deployments, I have always viewed spies as a fairly cheap way of doing things (At least without a pointlessly long setup) I think you people must advance now without detailed information, the armies are on the line and to a lesser extent in Tander and Sounderborg. With the massive army preparing to march from Blunderbürg. The plain fact I've run out of things to say without a response IC. (Flensburg, Sack of tander, the Castle all things that must be attended to.)

Fanatical pesants is more, not cheering the arrival of a liberator (which it really is) and informing the government of your movements. Not sticking pitchforks into passing cavalry men if that's what you were thinking. Very forward looking.

One last thing I assueme it's still June 16 or have we moved on from the early morning?

Anj dont forget that 900mm (holy shit) guns will take at least a day to set up, the German Krupps work 420mm howitzer used to level the Leige fortifications at the begining of WWI had a 200 man crew and took a day to assemble so just keep that in mind. Also I'm sending 40 305mm seige mortars based on a Skuda (Austrian equivalent to Krupps) gun, with my troops think I mentioned it but just making sure I did. Still those wont be there for two weeks or so. God I hate how slow this is progressing.

yeah, there's a Reason for the lack of movement. [technically, we're still in day one of the war, though some stuff that comes later has been posted]


as for how long the guns take to set up... well, i hadn't thought of that. but it doesn't worry me, really. it'll be some days before they even show up, and then they either blow the forts to hell and gone or the guys in the forts abandon them and it all moves up.

Waldenburg:
You still seem to be fixated on the idea that your naval artillery firing from 10km or so away will be effective against targets it CAN'T SEE.
With modern technology, you could do it; you could have OPs hidden away scattered across the countryside, only two men in each, with a radio, and be able to reliably hurl down pain and death.
With this level of technology, you have to successfully deploy scouts, against a force (being light cavalry) which is perfectly suited for both scouting and killing/keeping away enemy scouts.
You then have to run the information back to the forts, or to somewhere that *does* have communications, and hope that the information passes through the system fast enough to hit whatever it was you saw.

You can't rely on that set-up being any more than a pinprick to the Anj force, unless you have light cavalry as effective as his.

Leviathans...don't need to attack in the same direction as standard AA against fighters. They'd probably try to fire down on fighters, as much as possible...give them more time while the fighters struggled to climb to hit them.

As to the spying, it doesn't have to be Anjian citizens doing the spying. Most likely, and sensible, is finding a local (someone with gambling debts he's keeping secret, perhaps). You then pay off the debts, but keep evidence of them, as blackmail if necessary.
And then...as long as you only ask him for small things, like whether there are soldiers in his town, maybe roughly how many there are...you have an informant.
There are hundreds of way of picking up these people. They exist everywhere. And a capable, persistent intelligence network will have them all over the place. The only real problem is a reasonably swift, secure way of getting the information back. Coded letters is probably easiest, but there are others.

Waldenburg:
You still seem to be fixated on the idea that your naval artillery firing from 10km or so away will be effective against targets it CAN'T SEE.

With modern technology, you could do it; you could have OPs hidden away scattered across the countryside, only two men in each, with a radio, and be able to reliably hurl down pain and death.
With this level of technology, you have to successfully deploy scouts, against a force (being light cavalry) which is perfectly suited for both scouting and killing/keeping away enemy scouts.
You then have to run the information back to the forts, or to somewhere that *does* have communications, and hope that the information passes through the system fast enough to hit whatever it was you saw.

You can't rely on that set-up being any more than a pinprick to the Anj force, unless you have light cavalry as effective as his.

Leviathans...don't need to attack in the same direction as standard AA against fighters. They'd probably try to fire down on fighters, as much as possible...give them more time while the fighters struggled to climb to hit them.

As to the spying, it doesn't have to be Anjian citizens doing the spying. Most likely, and sensible, is finding a local (someone with gambling debts he's keeping secret, perhaps). You then pay off the debts, but keep evidence of them, as blackmail if necessary.
And then...as long as you only ask him for small things, like whether there are soldiers in his town, maybe roughly how many there are...you have an informant.
There are hundreds of way of picking up these people. They exist everywhere. And a capable, persistent intelligence network will have them all over the place. The only real problem is a reasonably swift, secure way of getting the information back. Coded letters is probably easiest, but there are others.

That's why it's called bombardment. although above somewhere I stated Flensburg as 9 miles away, I ment 9 Kilometers. As for bombarding the line well it's our territory....I can look out my window and see a town 5 miles off (Admittedly it is a very nice day and I'm at a fairly good elevation) away with the naked eye good enough to bombard. As for shooting troops, the only ones I have actually fired at are ones firing on me so far. The supplies will have to pass within kilometers of the forts, I think we'll manage even without the men still left in the trenches (Which is a bit of a puzzler because they were left there for their lack of communication) to spot, to hit the supply caravans. Perhaps I overetimate it again, but no more then artillery firing in the dark to hit a thin trench in the dark.

As for AA and Zeppelins we shall have to see, I have never even considered a artillery cannon fired from a zeppelin an efficient AA gun but we really will have to see on that.

As for citizens being bribed around, mine are pretty devout and loyal despite all the atrocities, of course there are those would be bribed and all, but there are few. Those who get into debt or betray the Empire died out a while. Not saying it wouldn't work but it would probably be easier to slowly work a foreigner into a position of power and that's fairly unlikely. It's to far opposites, lax internal security and the extreme loyalty of the lower classes.

The fact remains, that there are, and always will be dissidents. For example my people live fairly oppulently in a free and democratic society, but do you think everyone is happy, hell no. Thats realism there will always be those willing to be bought by, or work for another nation. No one's saying that they know the exact layout of your forces or anything of that sort, but they will know a ballpark number if a group of soldiers move into a town or through a town. Troop movements are simply too massive to hide, so, no one tries considering that spies are notoriously slow, and airborne recon is still in its infancy.

The fact remains, that there are, and always will be dissidents. For example my people live fairly oppulently in a free and democratic society, but do you think everyone is happy, hell no. Thats realism there will always be those willing to be bought by, or work for another nation. No one's saying that they know the exact layout of your forces or anything of that sort, but they will know a ballpark number if a group of soldiers move into a town or through a town. Troop movements are simply too massive to hide, so, no one tries considering that spies are notoriously slow, and airborne recon is still in its infancy.

Very True, although it is much harder to find in Waldenburg or at least moral corruption and Dissidence in one place, we still ahve an Inquisition and a military who wouldn't think twice about bombarding a city with gas. Anj has my ballpark figures and their relative locations, so we wait on him. (Although I think my Black Sea navy may be making a sally soon. Did you contact Kasinov with the whole plan of radios and what not? Outside of Problems I mean.)

Argh, I knew that I had forgoten to do something, thanks for reminding me I'll post something in his factbook.

Do you not realise that an Inquisition and military oppression, while they suppress the open signs of revolt, foster more hidden ones.
Assuming there will be no eruption of violence and revolution, you merely have an undercurrent of trouble, including passing information to foreign powers.

Do you not realise that an Inquisition and military oppression, while they suppress the open signs of revolt, foster more hidden ones.
Assuming there will be no eruption of violence and revolution, you merely have an undercurrent of trouble, including passing information to foreign powers.

There will be, it wasn't very bad under Wyatt Von Waldenburg, since Felix assumed charge of most of the government, atrocities keep pilling up which eventually will boil over. Besides that foreigners are still considered vile to the extreme, once especially the gas attack on Bode comes into public view things will get progressively worse. Right now Felix is flying by the public feeling created by the attempt on his life and the Anjian blitzkrieg. I've got some time, and Anj knows most things a peasant would know anyway.

ok, i'm going to request two things before moving on.

the first is a map of where everything is. i'm failing at getting it straight in my head.

the second is some sort of war moderator.

ok, i'm going to request two things before moving on.

the first is a map of where everything is. i'm failing at getting it straight in my head.

the second is some sort of war moderator.

On the moderator part I completely agree, although can't think of many people who aren't involved, Moorignton and Honako if they are still around would seem ideal but may not be present. As for a Map...

anyone got any idea on what sorta date I should put on my invasion of newfoundland. I also need a few wepons/stratages ok'ed.