NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright, let me list my main forces and the mainstays. These are just little descriptions:

ARM

MBT-22 C1 - 3529 Built. 2651 in Service
Range: 190 Miles
Speed: 30 MPH
Armament - 125 mm smoothbore turret, (2) 12.7mm Air Defense machine gun, (2) 5.7 × 28 mm machine gun. Additional capability to lay mines.

MBT-23 C1 - Main Battle Tank - 3628 Built. 2340 in Service.
Range: 200 miles
Speed: 35 MPH
Armament - 125 mm 2A46M-1 smoothbore turret, 5.7 × 28 mm machine gun, 12.7mm Utes (NSVT-12.7) air defence machine gun.

MBT-23 C1 - Main Battle Tank Type D - 67800 Built.

MAM

Oceanus - High Tech Destroyer - 30 Built.
Range: 3000 Miles
Speed: 25 Knots/hr
Armament: Twin Ophion Missile Launchers. 24 Missiles. Offensive/Defensive LRLW.

MOM Corp

FAF-4 - 4500 Built. 3890 in service.
Range: 2500 miles
Speed: 350 MPH
Armament: Two Ophion-B Missiles. .50 cal anti-air gun.

FAF-8 Type A - 200 Built. 200 Serviced.
Range: 1360 Miles
Speed: Mach 1.5
Armament: Two Ophion-B Missiles.

FAF-8 Type D - 50000 Built. Serviced.


------------------------

Total targets: Over 250,000 military vehicle/plane/ship targets. Type-D (decoys) give a real radar and satellite appearance. Almost impossible to tell without being very close and low to the ground from close range to tell.

Eralineta has thousands of fake hangars and bunkers that are made of a loose airframe. While easy to destroy they are filled with nothing or decoys. Decoys are the mainstay and will be critical when and if you invade if diplomacy fails.

Most Dangerous Unit: Oceanus.

The ship uses LRLW, a laser weapon. It runs at 10 MW and can use a single pulse to cut through anything in its way. If they fire a single pulse will be able to cut through several thousand feet of steel. The blast will go through the ships and into the water, but is so powerful it will cut into the nearest land and carve deep into the ground even on a pulse. This weapon is made of many smaller arrays, which can attack 21 seperate targets in a span of 50 microseconds. However these pulses are at 12,000~ watts, so they will cut through several inches of steel, but are used for destroying key targets rather then entire naval ships. Please becareful as they can be fitted with spatical filters and gratings to increase power.

Good idea with the OOC thread. And I'm sorry you didn't get the telegram I originally sent. Basically, what it said was that we were planning on attacking you, and that we hope we can all co-operate and get along OOC, because we've seen far too many good RPs degenerate into mindless OOC because there wasn't any form of pre-planning or co-operation among the IC participants. Bottom line is, we'd like everybody to get along OOC even if we're blowing each other up IC.

Also, from your RP it seems as if you're RPing it having been many years since the proclamation, whereas we were going on it only having been a few weeks to months since Dreadfire's declaration, thanks to NS' fluid time. Our plan was to begin the attacks around now (if it was all realtime), i.e. a few weeks after Dreadfire's deadline.




Lastly, on technology: the majority of Gholgoth's RPers that are going to be involved in this thread (primarily me and Sigma Octavus) don't really go for the whole idea of knowing exactly how many troops we're sending and what the exact stats of our tanks and stuff are. We know some things fairly precisely, and tend to go for other things very abstractly. Were Illior involved in this one, rather than the other thread which he will hopefully be starting soon, he would be much better at going over tech stuff with everyone involved.

So we have approximations. Now, a few notes on my military:

While I'm a large nation, I choose not to maintain a massive standing army the way many other nations do. My standing army is thirty-five divisions of approximately 10,000 fighting soldiers each (plus logistics and support elements) plus whatever equipment is in the division, as well as extra-divisional soldiers that have no set assignment but are sent wherever needed, either as an independent command or as a supplement onto an existing division. Infantry divisions are motorized and mechanized and frequently involve light or medium armour detachments along with them.

Because I have a large defence budget and a small standing military, combined with the fact that I've been on NS for four years come Sunday, I RP my troops as being very good, some of the best 'grunts' in the 'world', though I dislike using extreme generalizations like that, especially since what it all comes down to is roleplaying. Basically, it boils down to a lot of money and time being spent on training and equipment for every professional soldier, so they're very good individually. But most of that comes down to roleplaying. Besides that, I am far from an expert on land equipment and such, so I just call a tank a tank and an assault rifle an assault rifle, and assume they're high quality since Haraki spends a lot of money on the military.

Oh this is gonna be awesome. Its gonna be AWESOME.

*waves baibai to Eralineta*

Eralineta, you realize a 10MW laser would not be able to cut through several thousand feet of steel, you'd be lucky to get a dozen mm penetration because of atmospheric bloom (worse at sea lvl with salt air), and the matter that you're melting with the laser tends to shield the rest of the matter from it's effects. Lasers are useless against anything other then arty shells, missiles and maybe aircraft until decently far PMT.

I've already pointed out just how much suck is embodied in your army. I need say no more.

Now now, I'd still like to see how well this plays out. Dont' go waving to the disadvantaged side before the dice begin to roll!:p

BTW, have you checked your TG's lately, Haraki?

I've already pointed out just how much suck is embodied in your army. I need say no more.

Who the hell are you talking to? I, for one, respect both parties. You sir lack the respect for either side...besides, your comment (though OOC) is rather OOC to the OOC...

Who the hell are you talking to? I, for one, respect both parties. You sir lack the respect for either side...besides, your comment (though OOC) is rather OOC to the OOC...

I have some respect for the attackers, but anyone of Eralinetas size that purports himself to have 15 million armor and 35 million infantry is obviously wanking, and gets no respect. Unless by some strange twist of fate a nation of 82 million may now deploy a military that numbers in excess of his population.

As for the laser weaponry, I'm doubtful as to its being as effective as you say it would be. The ~1MW lasers produced by the United States and other nations have been used effectively in such uses as disabling a satellite, shooting down cruise missile and shooting down WWII-era artillery shells over prolonged exposure. I'm doubtful that even a laser ten times the power would be able to cut through thousands of feet of steel, or penetrate the armoured hull of a ship in one pulse. The lasers you're talking about would probably be at the earliest, early FT.

Plus they required very large supplies of energy to power, the sort that I don't think would be available on a destroyer. I'm far from an expert on lasers, though, - though I do find them interesting and was reading a chapter on them in a book on the history of quantum physics recently, it was more dealing with their invention than their use destroying ships - and would rather wait for someone who knows more than me to post with more information before they're used IC.





Union of Sharona, please stop right now. There's no need for name-calling at either side, and I haven't seen him post anything about numbers in the millions of infantry or armour. I'm liking the use of decoys, simply because it'll make the opening stages of RP much more interesting than a rain of missiles down upon a whole bunch of real targets. I don't think they'll be as effective in ground combat, for fairly obvious reasons, but I definitely think they'll enhance the opening stages of any occurring combat.

Yeah... Lasers are rather pushing it in MT for cutting massive ships with 500mm+ of armor... for missile defense, they aren't horrible, but they can only do so much against a rain of missiles, as their effectiveness gets worse and worse as range goes out. TSS knows more than I do, so hopefully he throws some more info out there...

Tanks are fine, just some basic armor scheme would be nice for Haraki's info, and also the aircraft seem to be fine as well...

Union of Sharona, please stop right now. There's no need for name-calling at either side, and I haven't seen him post anything about numbers in the millions of infantry or armour. I'm liking the use of decoys, simply because it'll make the opening stages of RP much more interesting than a rain of missiles down upon a whole bunch of real targets.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12530894&postcount=28 Decoys is a good idea. But, what he says is his military is not.

EDIT: His stats thread belies his statements. I rescind my mockery of his obscenely inflated numbers in the posted thread.

Apparently no ones seem the ones at Trumpe. A 7000 W laser cuts through one inch of steel in a single pulse. I think 30 ships sporting 10MW lasers (OUTPUT, not power source) running at 26% energy efficency (the ships have a total output of 40 MW maximum output per hour) is enough to use a couple blasts to reduce the naval ships to nothing from the area. Lasers do not suffer from weakening as you think. However your sources are indeed wrong about this.

Please read: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6380789.stm

This is a solid-state laser of 1MW that is ineffective. The chemicals are just brutal and it is a terrible system to fire. You see that we are using laser diodes (Real life) and we arrange them in racks (Real life). Thus the output maximum is limited by the fiber and the energy output (real life). Using 110 um fiber is suitable for the 21 base components.

Battlefield effectiveness is 100 Kw. Which is why I use them for defense of Eralineta. However my ships are floating platforms which have only the laser system to operate. I assure you, based on my calculations and upscaling I am sure that if I fired all my ships lasers that would destroy your entire fleet in the duration of less then a second. However...sinking will take longer.

The goal here is to fire the first pulse at the base of the ships where the fuel is stored with a couple pushes into that we hope to ignite the weapons/fuel in non-nuclear ships. Ideally tankers/supplies. On nuclear you target the communications first and take out the bridge then procede to cut the ship literally in two. If the attack on the logistic ships fails, cut them in half. If they launch planes, take them off on starting from the carriers, it is the safest time. If missiles launch track them and shoot them down.

Also, please note this, we are using laser diodes, which means higher beam quality then chemical lasers, so we have a much smaller area to hit, maximizing our damage. The total power output is divided over the area (generally, we prefer to use the hotspot at the center). Beam quality is preserved.

Also The Silver Sky, lasers VAPORIZE the steel. Have you ever seen a laser of even a mere 7 KW in action? (Points to the cut out steel on his wall) The laser cut through the steel in a single pulse and never needed to pass over it again. I'm sure a laser with combined maximum pulse can take care of it. However....I only use the smaller 470KWs as why would I need anything else? The overheating would be too critical.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12530894&postcount=28 Decoys is a good idea. But, what he says is his military is not.

EDIT: His stats thread belies his statements. I rescind my mockery of his obscenely inflated numbers in the posted thread.

Its a 75:1 ratio. The three companies are at war with itself and with the world.

Also my IC faking of forces is no more apparent then: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12484545#post12484545

Scud launchers and planes that looked like MiG-21's. HUNDREDS in ONE NIGHT? Seriously has to be fake. Though I giggle OOC about it, IC it appears as if these are true. I'm a proud believer of decoys and a nation as poor and uptight as this uses a lot of them. Seriously, I have my tank forces dwarfed by the actual decoys. Everything I had happen on the parade, that was essentially 30% of my military (which was 385,000 troops) and almost all the tanks at that time.

My actual military is 3,045,000 people with 1,170,250 being combat troops. 1,874,750 being logistical or developement or other employees. ARM holds about 900,000 of the actual forces, but MAM and MOM control the rest. ARM = Primarily Ground. MAM = Naval, MOM = Air.

Though estimates by plane show my forces to use them all would be nearly 35 million people to use them all. Back then (not my current 75:1 decoy to real ratio) 1 million vehicles... at a rate of 5:1 decoys. That is just 180,000 real vehicles. Tanks numbering about 12,000. Supply vehicles about 6000. Others not listed bring up combat to about 80,000. Logistical about 100,000. Its also safe to say we have lots of decoys obviously since they rarely move. Though it depends how long you've watched the nation.

Sadly though...since this is a few weeks AFTER the slavery issue. My decoy rate is about 5:1. So basically I look scary, but aside from the Oceanus ships which are the only real key defenders, I will probably get my butt kicked if anything gets to shore. My tanks are comparable to the T-90, but only 12,000 of them with great communications (and no experience in actual war) will prove to have maybe as high as a 3:1 loss to kill ratio against battle-hardened troops who can fight these. Ground based laser systems are only at (10) MAM, (3) ARM and (3)MOM HQ. Though these are a last ditch effort and are very weak, mostly anti-missile defenses. I've never had a superb military, but in terms of appearances I do.

I use high-tech and few numbers. ARM holding the ground division puts the rest at a 10:1 logistical/communications to combat troops. Though the only thing on the threatening board for the RP is the Oceanus's, which will either make or break the war. Those 30 ships are all that stand as a defensive and offensive line. We have no aircraft carriers or really any good secondary ships. MAM produces about 2 Oceanus's a year. We have no decoys of them.

MOM is the only one which could stop the force then, with a bunch of ground-skating Ophion missiles that pack a punch, but the planes are modern, but still could be missile fodder against a large force.

ARM is the last and weakest of all. While the most forces, the MBT-23 C1 can be taken out with some ease. The only thing the MBT-23's have on their side is the ability to relay their communications with Hamark for its defense (which no one got what I was talking about with the 'invisible city' thing) and perform excellent urban combat. Our C1 system can literally tap into Hamark's security databases and use the cameras and fiber optic lines to give a near perfect observable picture of the city, so enemy forces inside can be targetted and displayed and their global positions (as well as friendlies) can be known to each other. Protected by a high encryption it would be disaterous if anyone tried to crack it (for RP purposes it WILL have to be cracked if you try so (yes I have the code with a single word that will tell me if you broke the communications or not, if you do...you see EVERYTHING, if not...nothing happens (passive system so we won't know))

Basically there is three things to stop the forces, and each one responds differently and has to be taken care of differently. Oh...just remember ARM is a little freaky with invisible troops (for later note maybe).

Apparently no ones seem the ones at Trumpe. A 7000 W laser cuts through one inch of steel in a single pulse. I think 30 ships sporting 10MW lasers (OUTPUT, not power source) running at 26% energy efficency (the ships have a total output of 40 MW maximum output per hour) is enough to use a couple blasts to reduce the naval ships to nothing from the area. Lasers do not suffer from weakening as you think. However your sources are indeed wrong about this.

Please read: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6380789.stm

This is a solid-state laser of 1MW that is ineffective. The chemicals are just brutal and it is a terrible system to fire. You see that we are using laser diodes (Real life) and we arrange them in racks (Real life). Thus the output maximum is limited by the fiber and the energy output (real life). Using 110 um fiber is suitable for the 21 base components.

Battlefield effectiveness is 100 Kw. Which is why I use them for defense of Eralineta. However my ships are floating platforms which have only the laser system to operate. I assure you, based on my calculations and upscaling I am sure that if I fired all my ships lasers that would destroy your entire fleet in the duration of less then a second. However...sinking will take longer.

The goal here is to fire the first pulse at the base of the ships where the fuel is stored with a couple pushes into that we hope to ignite the weapons/fuel in non-nuclear ships. Ideally tankers/supplies. On nuclear you target the communications first and take out the bridge then procede to cut the ship literally in two. If the attack on the logistic ships fails, cut them in half. If they launch planes, take them off on starting from the carriers, it is the safest time. If missiles launch track them and shoot them down.

Also, please note this, we are using laser diodes, which means higher beam quality then chemical lasers, so we have a much smaller area to hit, maximizing our damage. The total power output is divided over the area (generally, we prefer to use the hotspot at the center). Beam quality is preserved.

Also The Silver Sky, lasers VAPORIZE the steel. Have you ever seen a laser of even a mere 7 KW in action? (Points to the cut out steel on his wall) The laser cut through the steel in a single pulse and never needed to pass over it again. I'm sure a laser with combined maximum pulse can take care of it. However....I only use the smaller 470KWs as why would I need anything else? The overheating would be too critical.

Remember that the effects of lasers are only so pronounced at close ranges. (as the article says: "On a good day, said Dr Yamamoto, a 100kW solid state laser with reasonable beam quality could have a range of several kilometres.") I'd venture that, assuming perfect conditions, a 10MW laser could have an effective range of, say, 80-100 km. Unfortunately, by the time you got close enough to use it effectively, your ships would have been blown up because most people are more concerned with fiddly things like missiles and guns that don't sound as cool but nonetheless can do a lot more damage at long range. (For instance, rocket-assisted battleship gun shells could hit 200km.)

That is where you are wrong. Solid-state lasers have very poor beam quality. This poor quality is amplified by distance. As the beam spreads out over distance of an already poor quality the ability to do damage is decreased.

It is a direct correlation to Power = DBQ/(BA2).

This means with my effective range is far superior then this pesky low powered version, my beam size is 25 microns. While the military is using a 2.5 sq cm. The military can punch a bigger hole, mine can punch faster and from longer range. That is the difference as why mine is so deadly even in the much smaller range of 12kw then the military. Its the area of the target. The military is targeting an area a thousand times larger, so of course it will take much longer to punch through.

Seriously, think of that before saying I have limited range. My small beam from the laser diodes are being used as they should be. Even at large ranges of 100 km+ they still will be able to deliver heavy damage to the ships.

Do note that the range for the laser is up to 8-10km now, with a thousand times larger area, they are effective, but the military knows time is a concern and will definately need to improve beam quality (size of the beam specifically) to ensure they can deal with close in threats. My technology is very different and follows IPGs designs which are scalable and seem to have no limit. Though...do note that the LRLW's cost $250,000,000 each. The technology is there, but its so much that even the military would not want to get into so easily. I on the otherhand put all my eggs in one basket on this.

I am positive of its role for Eralineta.

Actually, you won't be able to hit any surface ship past the horizion (20-50km away depending how high you are), meaning your enemies shiply pound you out of your range with shells and missiles. Also, focusing 21 diodes on a 25 micron area is gonna be very, very hard, especially at range, accurately predicting the bending and bloom of the laser is going to be very very hard as the range nears the horizion.

Actually, you won't be able to hit any surface ship past the horizion (20-50km away depending how high you are), meaning your enemies shiply pound you out of your range with shells and missiles. Also, focusing 21 diodes on a 25 micron area is gonna be very, very hard, especially at range, accurately predicting the bending and bloom of the laser is going to be very very hard as the range nears the horizion.


I was going to say this, but TSS beat me to it.

Actually, you won't be able to hit any surface ship past the horizion (20-50km away depending how high you are), meaning your enemies shiply pound you out of your range with shells and missiles. Also, focusing 21 diodes on a 25 micron area is gonna be very, very hard, especially at range, accurately predicting the bending and bloom of the laser is going to be very very hard as the range nears the horizion.

The earth goes down about 8 inches for each mile. However just for the sake of things:
http://www.boatsafe.com/kids/distance.htm (Just cause its a boat at well)
1.17 times the square root of your height of eye = Distance to the horizon in nautical miles.

At a height of 30 ft my distance to the horizon is 1053 nautical miles.

1 nautical mile = 1.852 kilometers
1053 nautical miles = 1950.156 km

I do believe I can target it. Also bloom is not something I am familar with as it is commonly called DIVERGANCE.

However to get this we use:

\lambda^\prime = \frac{\lambda_0}{n}

then

Divergence=\frac{D_f-D_i}{l}

Using the divergance model

0 m = .025 mm
100m = 1.0025 mm (Minimum divergence rate for an infra-red laser)
mRad = .001

Using Mrad on the model I get that my beam of .025.

At 250 km it is 250 mm wide.
At 250 mi it is 402 mm wide.
At 1000 mi it is 1609 m wide. (this point is still enough to do damage with the full beam!)

Therefore it works. I'm sorry, but it does.

I cannot help but notice some discrepancies between what you posted about the Oceanus' lasers and that link you provided as evidence (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6380789.stm). All the information below is what I have gained from the link you provided as evidence. I just listed some points, not trying to make it into a coherent argument or anything.

First off, the laser in that link is a solid state laser of 67 kW, and burned through one inch of steel in seven seconds.

Lasers of up to 1 MW of output can only be made as chemical lasers, which are large and bulky.

The laser there only had a range of several kilometres, most likely due to blooming.

Solid state lasers 'may lack the potential to get up to the megawatt range'. That means that if you're implementing it now, it would be PMT at the earliest, since right now we don't know if they could be that powerful or not.

The laser in that article is being designed to take out rockets, missiles, and artillery shells, not to punch through the armour of ships.



Essentially, I don't think the kind of weapon you're talking about is feasible in MT. Since the most state-of-the-art solid state laser in real life now is only 67 kW of output, I don't think you can justify a 1 MW output, let alone 10 MW. Whether they would be as effective as you say they would is another matter, which we can't really prove since solid state lasers that powerful don't exist right now.

The earth goes down about 8 inches for each mile. However just for the sake of things:
http://www.boatsafe.com/kids/distance.htm (Just cause its a boat at well)
1.17 times the square root of your height of eye = Distance to the horizon in nautical miles.

At a height of 30 ft my distance to the horizon is 1053 nautical miles.

1 nautical mile = 1.852 kilometers
1053 nautical miles = 1950.156 km


Horribly, horribly, horribly wrong.

The equation should be 1.17*(Squareroot of 30ft=5.48ft)=6.41nm, you're barely hitting 11km.

I cannot help but notice some discrepancies between what you posted about the Oceanus' lasers and that link you provided as evidence (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6380789.stm). All the information below is what I have gained from the link you provided as evidence. I just listed some points, not trying to make it into a coherent argument or anything.

First off, the laser in that link is a solid state laser of 67 kW, and burned through one inch of steel in seven seconds.

Lasers of up to 1 MW of output can only be made as chemical lasers, which are large and bulky.

The laser there only had a range of several kilometres, most likely due to blooming.

Solid state lasers 'may lack the potential to get up to the megawatt range'. That means that if you're implementing it now, it would be PMT at the earliest, since right now we don't know if they could be that powerful or not.

The laser in that article is being designed to take out rockets, missiles, and artillery shells, not to punch through the armour of ships.



Essentially, I don't think the kind of weapon you're talking about is feasible in MT. Since the most state-of-the-art solid state laser in real life now is only 67 kW of output, I don't think you can justify a 1 MW output, let alone 10 MW. Whether they would be as effective as you say they would is another matter, which we can't really prove since solid state lasers that powerful don't exist right now.

Actually...its already capable of being made. I do not use chemical or solid-state. I use laser diodes. These are individual lasers of 9W output that are coupled together in bundles. They are highly efficent (26% I believe was the company's quote) so they are over 4x as efficent as chemical and even new generation solid state (13%)

However, the diodes do need a special coupling system through fiber optics, this means that I do need to cool it or use very long passes, I infact cool them on the ship. The scalability of the IPG lasers has met no limit and they have personally said they can reach up to the 100kw range, if only the military who was interested actually goes through with the plan. There is nothing saying they can't, other then the money issue.

We are following that same path. Specifically, the lower out diodes (which to be honest is very high compared to typical old diodes (I want the new 20W version which should be out by 2009 though). All we've done is built them into stacks and thrown all the power into 21 systems that can all be joined into one big one (if necessary).

The company is IPG Photonics by the way.
And this is my field of study. I've been to the top companies in the world and if you notice, I use IPG's the most.

Since I'm not well-versed in lasers and I don't have time to become so right now (leaving the house in five minutes) I'm going to leave it to other people to read up on what you've said since I wouldn't be able to argue one way or the other on this subject.

I will point out, however, that, as TSS pointed out, you did make an error in your calculation of their range. It should be 1.17*(√eye height)=distance to horizon. You did 1.17*(eye height squared).

The two equations work out like this.



1.17*(√30) = 6.41
1.17*(30*30)=1053

You'll only get a small fraction (less than a third) of, say, battleship guns.

Ah square root. Make that 14.04 Nm range. Will fix. Hmm... should have been more careful. Thanks. Fixing the data now.

I'm writing up an IC post now that I'm back at a computer, but as it involves the following, I felt I should give some information.

Trebuchet missiles:
Harakian Trebuchet cruise missiles are a common weapon in the Harakian military, especially used from naval vessels. They are quite effective against regular anti-missile systems, because their trajectory is very different from the standard horizontal or slight downward angle found on most missiles intended to be fired at by CIWS systems.

Trebuchets upon launch climb rapidly to slightly over 70 km in the air, in the upper Mesosphere. They travel the rest of the distance to their target at that height, and upon arrival dive at their target. They exceed the speed of sound several times by the time they reach sea level, and added to the kinetic energy damage they hit with an equivalent warhead to a Tomahawk missile. They include other variants and variations, such as reprogramming them to fly at a different altitude, or an anti-ship variant including a dense and extremely hardened pointed plate at the front for penetrating deck armour on ships and bunkers on land. This plate causes the warhead to be less, but essentially gives it similar qualities as the surface hit since it punches through armour beforehand.

Because of their very high altitude when flying, they are near-impossible to detect with conventional radar and very hard to shoot down, especially with conventional weapons. However, because they are still sub-orbital, devices to track and intercept orbital weaponry such as ICBMs are also largely ineffective, rendering most ABM systems ineffectual against Trebuchets. Once they begin their dive they are all-but impossible to stop, and conventional CIWS will have next to no effect on them as they are travelling hundreds of metres per second from directly above the target.

1) All radars are conventional and higher altitude targets are easier to detect at range, not to mention it would be easy prey for long-wavelength radars.

2) Radar is used to track orbital objects, and it works just as well against objects in sub-orbit.

3) ABMs can really hit anything, this will actually be easier because of lower altitude and speed, the only thing you saved yourself from is orbital missiles/brilliant pebbles.

4) Just hit them with at Kinetic Energy Missile and it'd be ripped apart by the speed and knocked off course.

>.> I think you set out to make this missile as easy to destroy as possible. >.>

1) All radars are conventional and higher altitude targets are easier to detect at range, not to mention it would be easy prey for long-wavelength radars.

2) Radar is used to track orbital objects, and it works just as well against objects in sub-orbit.

3) ABMs can really hit anything, this will actually be easier because of lower altitude and speed, the only thing you saved yourself from is orbital missiles/brilliant pebbles.

4) Just hit them with at Kinetic Energy Missile and it'd be ripped apart by the speed and knocked off course.

>.> I think you set out to make this missile as easy to destroy as possible. >.>


While easy to destroy they have speed. That makes targeting them an expensive option, they will pass Phalanx guns with ease. However the save can be made my an anti-air missile rather then something like a Patriot. Though while more expensive this is a wonderful option.

However, they are still under my radar range and will easily be spotted, the abnormal trajectory is akin to a prototype missile I was planning to release. This used as a defensive weapon is amazing, and I also see the potentional for open-water conflicts. It is a good choice, but the supersonic speed has the boom, given this and the high trajectory it is fair to say that the disturbances can be noted by earthquake and just plain olde sound. This will at least alert near-by units, but in this type, hearing and relaying might be possible if it was to attack shore.

While clever, rate of interception is only at a mere 30% as they will bypass (and be surprised) by my Oceanus's. Meaning that the larger LRLW's will be able to protect the Naval base, but the runways (largely decoys as built under Ragnarok) will have protect key runways. This means the decoy runways (yes, ones that are FAKE) and fake hangars will be hit. Though a clear pattern will show the real ones quickly over the bases.

One sec... IC post comes now.

...and this is what happens when non-weapons designers try to design things. Serves me right for not being an expert in the fields of aeronautics and radar, I guess.

The radar stuff is probably my fault for not doing thorough enough reading about it beforehand (I came up with the basic design for this a long time ago), but the point of my 'avoids some ABM systems' bit is that it is resistant to many forms of conventional anti-cruise missile defence because of the extreme range from the ground, while at the same time not suffering all the disadvantages of ICBMs versus ABM systems, because orbital ABM systems don't work against it.

And as for 4, well, I never said they were impossible to destroy, They're as easy as any cruise missile to destroy/knock off course. Their advantage comes primarily from the complete negation of gun-based anti-missile defence, such as CIWS on ships.




Edit: Also, Eralineta, remember that while on its final target trajectory, when it crosses the speed of sound it will only be a few seconds before it strikes its target, and before that (on transit) it would cross the speed of sound long before reaching your shore.

my idiot brother wants tpo know how old these peole im talking to are. just one of you or more say your age.

A few notes about your response:

The submarines didn't fire torpedoes. Many types of modern submarines are capable of firing cruise missiles out of torpedo tubes, and this is what mine were doing, using conventional cruise missiles out of torpedo tubes to just add some more missiles to the strike on the naval forces. Also, these missiles were fired from international waters, probably a long way from your coastline, and therefore probably out of range of artillery counterfire.

And the point of using stratobombers for preliminary strikes is their high altitude, making them hard to intercept with fighters unless the fighters are specifically designed for high-altitude interception, which I believe is something you have definitely not specified as being a capacity of this FA-1B (is this a real-world plane, or did you make it? It's not in your first post of stats in this thread). As well, I'm still somewhat skeptical about the laser weaponry's effectiveness, especially at extreme ranges. Blooming is a different issue than divergence is (A link to Wikipedia will give you an idea of what I'm referring to as blooming, different from divergence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blooming_%28laser%29#Blooming)) and I believe the way you are counteracting that is through incredibly short pulses. However, I think these incredibly short pulses with such an incredibly thin point of impact would cause very little damage. As soon as you start lengthening the beam to make a cut rather than a 0.025mm hole, blooming takes effect. This would be radically increased given that you would be shooting at my bombers through ten to thirty kilometres of dust, clouds, etc all of which enhance blooming and cause the laser to rapidly lose power. Again, though, this is not my forte.

I don't have any problems with laser weaponry intercepting bombs and missiles. That's real-world technology, only applied on a larger scale as is the trend in NS.



I'll get up a quick response on some things, but it's getting close to 1 AM here, and I need to get to bed soon.

It avoids the blooming because its a laser pulse of microseconds. If it was a prolonged exposure like the much lower powered one in use by the military this IS an issue. I use high power and single punches to negate blooming, which is why I only need to factor distance for divergance, which still weakens the beam maximum damage. You'd be right about the bloom if I was doing any long term exposure of say... .1 seconds or longer, but mine is measured in microseconds and is too short to really matter in these cases.


Random fun fact!
What's kinda funny...if you spun them it would have the ability to see into the past....Lasers can be used as time machines. Though that's just a fun fact for today. The math will kill ya though. :P

Oh an Haraki, I knew what you meant...and perhaps knew too well, it was unconventional and ICBMs are not my main defense, cruise missiles yes, but the strange trajectory goes outside my normal operational conditions. I'm not going to lie and say I have close-range ICBM protection like that, but it was effective for an attack. Your chances of doing it twice are going to be lower though now that we can prepare for them though. :D

Oh the plane!

FA-1B

* Accommodation: One
* Length: 16.45 meters
* Wingspan: 11.56 meters
* Height: 4.83 meters
* Weight: empty weight 11, 876 kilograms; standard mission weight 16, 662 kilograms; maximum takeoff weight 24, 669 kilograms
* Powerplant type: FNX-5010-K turbofan x1
* Powerplant output: 8, 221 kilograms; afterburner 12, 877 kilograms
* Speed:
o Cruise Speed: Mach 0.8 (altitude 14, 400 meters)
o Maximum Speed: Mach 2.1 (altitude 14, 400 meters)
* Fuselage Load Limit: 9 G
* Maximum altitude: 17, 700 meters
* Armament: 20 mm Vulcan Gun x 1; hardpoint x 7 (4 underwing, 3 fuselage) for up to 5, 800 kilograms

One of my speciality ones. Very short supply. Was in my ARM military thread. There is more you should becareful of though, these can go 1 on 1 with F-22's over my territory (stealth negatation by the reflected waves from my radar set up) In all purpose MOM has no stealth fighters.

The real threat will be the FFR-31MR and FFR-41MR. (And NO the FFR-41MR does not use the ramjets. Don't bother asking. ) Those planes however are under hero unit quality. And are one of a kind (at the moment). They will be prevalent AFTER this war though.

Wouldn't the very very short pulse combined with the very very small target area cause next to no damage? Even if I took for granted the ability of your lasers to cause the damage you say they do (which I am skeptical about to say the least - I find it very hard to believe a laser we have the technology for today could cut through battleship armour) the very short exposure time combined with very small target area would cause very little damage - a hole less than the size of a pinprick. Combine that with the necessary cooldown time for lasers and ... well ...




That thing about seeing into the past is neat, though. Kind of like looking between the stars.




Oh, and about those fighters:

The exact operational altitude range of stratobombers is unknown, due to the fact that I don't have specific technical information on the planes I use, but since Haraki tends to prioritize quality over quantity, I imagine it would have a maximum altitude of at least around 30 kilometres, and being that it's part of a preliminary strike on a hostile nation, it would definitely be as high as it goes, putting it out of the height range of those fighters.

You'll need to know about my missiles shortly.


AM-98B Morning Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Length: 9.8m
Diameter: 0.9m
Weight: 5043kg Fully Loaded
Propulsion: NP-M-120 Hybrid (SCRAMjet & Pulse Det) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=400897)
Guidance: CIE; LADAR; Active-passive, radar seeker head; GPS; IR;
Electronics: OWL Processor; Northern Digital 100GB Flash Drive
Counter Measures: Flares; Chaff; OWL Processor; CIE; Armoured Nose; Reflective Skin; IR Strobe.
Design Notes: Active Aerolastic Wings; Mission-Adaptive Skin; Reflective Body (Like the SS-25); 3D thrust vectoring; Rotating Canards;
Sustainable G's: 14+
Speed: Mach 3 to 5.
Warhead: 400kg Warhead
Fuel: Solid Fuel Booster Phase; Liquid Fuel for SCRAMjet & Pulse Det;
Range: 385mi (619.6km) at Hi-Hi Launch Pattern; 265mi (426.5km) on Lo-Lo Launch Pattern.
Effective Detection and Target Range: 600km integrated.
Launch Platforms: Air; Ship; Submarine; Land.
Description of Attack and Use of Systems: The AM-98B is designed to be launched generally from either Aircraft or Ships; Generally in a large group or flock to ensure maximum survivability.

The AM-98 was based off the SS-N-26 Yakhont of Russian design, and perfected by the Irish (Artitsans). The Missile itself is highly resistive to Jamming, using several different methods to identify its targets. The powerful processor is used to process all the information gathered from the CIE, LADAR, IR, and RADAR systems. Generally the flight and detection profile looks like this:

Missile is launched; Guidance begins immediatly by either AWACs or GPS (If AWACs is unavailable.); Because GPS is not that accurate it is only used until the missile is within RADAR or LADAR range. Once the Missile has confirmed its target groups location, it will move to between 5m-15m above sea level and begin skimming. Every 100km the missile will pop up briefly and use its RADAR and GPS to ensure that it is still on course. Generally if there is a flock of missiles, only one will pop up to ensure maximum survivability for the group. They missiles will then communicate the location. The reason LADAR is not used for this purpose is because at that point in time it is mapping the sea surface, ensuring there is no decrease in height or a rogue wave.

Once the Missile is within attack range it will then begin its evasive maneuvers, much the same as the original Yakhont. The Processor and Memory Banks then become very important at this point. The missiles allocate and range targets by their importance and choose the attack implementation plan. The independent control system keeps in memory not only the ECM (Electronic Countermeasures) and ECCM (Electronic Counter-Countermeasures) data, but also the methods of evading the fire of the enemy's air defense systems such as the US' Phalanx CIWS (Close-In Weapon System). Before a mission the ground crew can pre-program the missile with the information necessary to defeat specific opponents and their weapon systems. The CIE itself is a marvelous feature that is able to identify ships in tandem with the LADAR allowing proper identification and distribution of targets among the flock of missiles. This prevents unnessessary multiple hits upon targets that do not require as such. Once into this final attack phase, the CIE identifies the ship type. This allows the missile to strike a certain section of the ship. This could be an area not protected by the Belt... a Magazine... FCS... Bridge or Command Centre... Smoke Stacks... Engine Compartments... VLS stackings... essentially any location that will either completely decimate the ship or at least achieve a mission kill.

RL Precedent: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Yakhont.html



AM-98K Falling Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Length: 9.8m
Diameter: 0.9m
Weight: 5043kg Fully Loaded
Propulsion: NP-M-120 Hybrid (SCRAMjet & Pulse Det) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=400897)
Guidance: CIE; LADAR; Active-passive, radar seeker head; GPS; IR;
Electronics: OWL Processor; Northern Digital 100GB Flash Drive
Counter Measures: Flares; Chaff; OWL Processor; CIE; Armoured Nose; Reflective Skin; IR Strobe.
Design Notes: Active Aerolastic Wings; Mission-Adaptive Skin; Reflective Body (Like the SS-25); 3D thrust vectoring; Rotating Canards;
Sustainable G's: 14+
Speed: Initial Phase: Mach 3. Terminal Phase: Mach 10 to 12.
Primary Altitude: Between 85,000ft and 100,000ft.
Warhead: 400kg Warhead
Fuel: Solid Fuel Booster Phase; Liquid Fuel for SCRAMjet & Pulse Det;
Range: 385mi (619.6km) at Hi-Hi Launch Pattern
Effective Detection and Target Range: 600km integrated.
Launch Platforms: Air; Ship; Submarine; Land.
Description of Attack and Use of Systems: The AM-98K is designed to Supplement an attack by AM-98B's, compeletly changing their attack profile. These missiles are only capable of being launched by aircraft, and assume an altitude of 85,000 to 100,000 feet. At this level, SCRAMjet is unable to be used, but the Pulse Det is. Once the missile reaches the area over the target, it will then turn 90* towards the earth. Minor adjustments can be made by the 3D thrustvectored engine or the forward nozzles. The Mission Adaptive Skin and AAW relieves stress put onto the structure. Because of the influx of oxygen at such a fast rate, the SCRAMjet will kick in, as will gravity. The Speed of the missile will reach an astonishing Mach 10, slamming into the deck (hopefully the superstructure or magazine if the CIE works properly) tearing through every level. The Best possible outcome could be a complete pass through a ship, as the exit point will be massive from the shock wave, allowing water to spill in and perhaps even the keel to snap in half. Expected outcome would be the missile burying itself inside the ship and the warhead demolishing much of the interior causing chain reactions. The worst case scenario is a counter-measures intercept in which case the flaming wreckage would still impact the ship at a fantastic velocity still causing reasonable damage.

AM-98C Fire Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Everything remains the same, except it becomes a land attack cruise missile. The 'C' varient happens to carry a Thermobaric warhead.

AM-98D Morning Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Another land attack Varient; This missile contains bomblets capable and intended for destroying airfields and runways.

AM-98E Shooting Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Bunker Buster featuring hardened tungsten penetrator with delayed fuse.

AM-98F Cold Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Carries four dozen intelligent self-forging fletchettes that have the capability of altering their trajectories to an extent. Fletchettes are designed to penetrate top armour of a modern battle tank.

AM-98G Solid Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Resembles the AM-98F, in that it carries submunitions. The difference is that these submunitions number in the thousands and are designed to spread over several hundred meters slicing through flesh and bone.

AM-98H Yellow Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Resembles the Anti-Shipping missiles, but uses a standard ballistic trajectory.

AM-98I Gold Star (http://star.walagata.com/w/artitsa/AM-98_Labeled.gif)
Nuclear Munition

*All ground attack missiles have had their CIEs updated and altered for the ground attack role.
**IR blinders are good for... blinding LADAR.

One question, as I begin to techwank in response to your uber lasers..
Do describe your detection systems, countermeasures and etc. I like to get a good mix of techwankery and RP. Without the techwank its like saying Iraq could have defeated the US airforce in air to air combat with good RPing. Unfortunatly it DOES make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Your satellites are clearly not MT. This is MT. Haraki don't say otherwise as orbital satellite weaponry goes so far as to break the global treaty. I'm sorry, but since we are apart of it and apart of the MT world I cannot allow your previous post. No FT or things currently barred from use by all nations, or at least things not immediately workable now. This includes the 70+ year offset on your weaponry.

Artitsa you aren't welcomed and you are clearly not MT. We've already had this issue done before with Toori. I'm sorry, but you are not part of this RP.

Your satellites are clearly not MT. This is MT. Haraki don't say otherwise as orbital satellite weaponry goes so far as to break the global treaty. I'm sorry, but since we are apart of it and apart of the MT world I cannot allow your previous post. No FT or things currently barred from use by all nations, or at least things not immediately workable now. This includes the 70+ year offset on your weaponry.

What global treaty? I've never heard of a global treaty on orbital satellites in NS. If there was one then I think if anyone has the power to break it or make it its Gholgoth.

Artitsa you aren't welcomed and you are clearly not MT. We've already had this issue done before with Toori. I'm sorry, but you are not part of this RP.

At the risk of being impolite, the thread is Golgoth Alliance (...), which means anyone in the membership of Golgoth. Artitsa is a member of Golgoth.

So unless you meant the title to be Golgoth Alliance (but only for certain members who have been invited) declares war on Eralineta, Artitsa certainly has a right to participate.

As for myself... No one's mentioned anything in Golgoth yet, or at least I don't think so.

Your satellites are clearly not MT. This is MT. Haraki don't say otherwise as orbital satellite weaponry goes so far as to break the global treaty. I'm sorry, but since we are apart of it and apart of the MT world I cannot allow your previous post. No FT or things currently barred from use by all nations, or at least things not immediately workable now. This includes the 70+ year offset on your weaponry.
the Harakian weapon satellites. Loaded with 4-metre-long, 0.4-metre-thick guided tungsten 'godrods', they received orders transmitted from the ground and acquired their targets in the blink of an eye. A short period of time was taken manoeuvring them into proper firing position, but all too soon they were ready to fire down at Eralineta's laser defences. All known MAM LRLWs were to be targeted, with the exception of those onboard the destroyers. Within fairly short order, surgical strikes composed of computer-guided godrods dropped from the Harakian weapons satellites, slipping into the atmosphere directly towards all the LRLWs that had revealed themselves by taking action against the initial Harakian strike.
So hang on.... you're saying that it's impossible at present to put a piece of tungsten on a satellite? It's not as though we don't have any satellites or tungsten rods in the present day....

Artitsa you aren't welcomed and you are clearly not MT. We've already had this issue done before with Toori. I'm sorry, but you are not part of this RP.
What about Artitsa is not MT? The only pieces of technology described in his IC post were a helicopter (looks pretty MT to me) and superdreadnoughts (about as futuristic as your laser things); OOCly he described a pretty expensive but otherwise unobjectionable missile. I don't see any of his spacedyships or ion cannons here.

Arise, Sir Eralineta, I hereby dub thee "Sore Loser". Now go forth and at least pretend to be trying to have fun.

What global treaty? I've never heard of a global treaty on orbital satellites in NS. If there was one then I think if anyone has the power to break it or make it its Gholgoth.



I've never heard of such "global treaty" either, because frankly it does not exist.

Eralineta, godrod or missile satellites are not FT. A basic godrod satellite can easily be done even today in the real world, so I don't see where your objection lies. It's as simple as putting a hopper filled with tungsten rods on a satellite, having it sight in a target on the ground, and release its payload. Show me where this is FT, because the technology to pull a godrod sat off is less advanced than some of the anti-shipping missiles, artillery platforms, and MBT's that you see in MT threads.

And ALL of the gear Artitsa listed is pure MT, as the basis of his designs are the real life Russian Yakhont missile, only his are improved slightly, which is what almost everyone on NS does (taking a real life design and adding their own flavor to it). Show me where he has any FT gear, because I'm just not seeing it.

As has been said before, the satellite weaponry I'm using is more than possible in real life currently. It is entirely possible, just not used because of global treaties about the disarmament of space. In NS, no such treaties exist, and even if they did, it would be my choice to violate them. I'm not shooting you with ortillery or anything PMT like that, I'm dropping godrods (which would be in use by the United States right now if not for the treaties in question) and tungsten-encased FAEs, which fall in the same category as godrods. Entirely possible and feasible for these to not only exist, but be launched from satellites.

And on the subject of Artitsa: Everything he posted there is MT, and in fact the second missile is quite similar to the Trebuchet which I was using earlier. As well, as a member of Gholgoth, Artitsa has every right to be in the RP.

As well, as a member of Gholgoth, Artitsa has every right to be in the RP.

Came in for one thing. The question is this, is Artitsa needed in this role-play? The answer is hell no. If you want to make this fun role-play, then two against one is all you need. I don’t think Eralineta will be that hard to beat to use all of Gholgoth.

And off goes the wolfman.

Then again, this is a purgery of slavery from Nationstates. The Gholgoth have taken it upon themselves to get rid of it entirely. Sorry T-Man! I had to say something.

Well, then they could go after the other slaver nations. One Gholgoth nation can take down a 93 million nation without breaking a sweat. The United Dominion could do it.

I'm sure they could.:rolleyes:
All I'm saying is that they have a good cause.
Now I must go back to:

1) Dephirian Civil Conflict thread.
--->Kane's expansion
--->Scythis' return
--->IC crap with Iragia
--->Repel Blackhelm's invasion of Dephire's Territory, Deconter.
2) Push for Iragia to convert to the path of good rather than evil.
3) Stay updated with the International Incidents.

Yes, Blackhelm (a known slaver) has attacked Dephirian territory. Deconter (Dephirian Controlled Territory) is at peace with Iragia, but with some tension. Now Blackhelm, Iragia's dog master, is using Iragia to get to me.

This, of course, matters not in this war. Sorry for posting here.

Anyways, Gholgoth chooses what they want. It is not up to us to tell them what to do. Heh, I got my butt beat by them once...well...my now deceased former Emperor did...

Good luck everyone! Live strong and long!

It's true what Trans says. I have confidence that any one nation of Gholgoth could handle this war individually. We had originally planned on just me and Sigma. Artitsa was not involved in the planning until recently, when he decided to join in. Since this is the only RP active until Illior gets the next one going in parallel, he joined in this one.

As far as I can tell from the IC post, he's only sending naval forces. Since Eralineta's navy is small and, pending the results of my FAE attack, is in a state of limbo, he probably won't have that much to do with the rest of the RP once we land, aside from missile and air raids on Eralinetan territory, both of which Sigma and I could contribute anyway.

We can discuss this more once Eralineta gets online. But it's also worth noting that the only thing I meant when I said 'as a member of Gholgoth, Artitsa has every right to be in the RP' was that the situation was different from the situation with Toori because Toori was just some random nation that none of us knew, and Artitsa is a member of Gholgoth.

Ah, so it is like a full-on Gholgoth invasion upon nearly every nation that practices slavery? Well, invasion of the top nations using slavery...am I anywhere close or should I just shut up right now? :(

Go back and read the thread where Damien Dreadfire proclaimed the beginning of Gholgoth's anti-slavery campaign, - and, correspondingly, the end of slavery - and you'll see just what our goals are.

Ah. I was just trying to get a brief description. Anyways, have you by chance looked at my reply to your telegram from two or three days ago?

This RP is through with for all others then Haraki. I never recieved this TG from Haraki, the alliance in response to slavery (no diplomacy or attempt made = no reason to accept this as our policy is completely different then what was assumed. It is unreasonable to do this.)

Eralineta has never been slavery driven. Jeeze Haraki gave a second TG 2 days ago that was this:

The thread I told you about earlier. As I said before, we'd really, REALLY like it if we can all get along OOC and be friends despite this IC issue. As before, any questions, comments, concerns, etc can be TGed to me, and we'll see what we can do about it. There's no reason this can't be fun for everyone

Being as the issue is slavery you are attacking a nation that is in the ANTI-Slavery Alliance. I thought Haraki's initial outrage was from ARM and Emperor Black mocking Haraki. If this is an issue on slavery it is null and void. Only Haraki should be here.

Also. Scram-jet is not MT. Tungsten orbital weapons goes against RL policy, and are complete godmod against physics. You need PMT-FT to do this. As what Haraki talks about is IMPOSSIBLE with MT technology and the ability to damage these buildings are just 1/9th that of a conventional bomb. Having a maximum of 1 km/s. Similiary a long-rod cost is about $30 million a shot, ineffective given the conditions and the ability to do so renders the fact that he has already godmodded the ability to pinpoint and fire the weapons.

This is a godmod as the distance is too far and a geosynchronical orbit time takes about 6 hours to fall. Giving more then PLENTY of time to shoot them down as they have no external means of movement. Tungsten is weak versus lasers and this ability to godmod the ability of a fuel-air-bomb-orbital weapon.

Such weapons are infeasible and are a godmod of the ability and have no basis in the MT world as they are clear godmods and within the operational window of interception are no more then nothing. Haraki, your weaponry goes far past the ability of technology even 50+ years into the future and is impractical. If I must do an IC response I have to take into account for the simple fact your rods are unable to move (targetting was handled by the satellite so ability to be accurate is rare and random based on the large differences in the atmosphere and trajectory. While powerful the movement is linear and predictable and serves no means for it not to be shot down. Also your ability to protect your satellites is godmodded as a trajectory from a missile to a GEO orbit is far outside of the reach of a tungsten rod as the drop is linear and the launch is not. Also your firing time gives us 6 hours to respond to the threat, meaning if we even launch a conventional anti-air missile at it and provide even an indirect hit or nudge it ever so slightly from high altitude it will be blown apart or diverted. At much closer ranges it can be hit by the laser and explode (the process of heat effecting it) will literally cause it to vaporize or melt into nothing as the effect of heat expands the molecular structure so rapidly.

So seriously, I am not in favor of Artitsa's godmod missiles which are clearly not MT and are not feasible at this time. Automagfreek you have failed to listen to physics on this. Also the treaty is here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html.

107th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 2977

To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

October 2, 2001

Mr. KUCINICH introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Science, and in addition to the Committees on Armed Services, and International Relations, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned

A BILL

To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Space Preservation Act of 2001'.

SEC. 2. REAFFIRMATION OF POLICY ON THE PRESERVATION OF PEACE IN SPACE.

Congress reaffirms the policy expressed in section 102(a) of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (42 U.S.C. 2451(a)), stating that it `is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all mankind.'.

SEC. 3. PERMANENT BAN ON BASING OF WEAPONS IN SPACE.

The President shall--

(1) implement a permanent ban on space-based weapons of the United States and remove from space any existing space-based weapons of the United States; and

(2) immediately order the permanent termination of research and development, testing, manufacturing, production, and deployment of all space-based weapons of the United States and their components.

SEC. 4. WORLD AGREEMENT BANNING SPACE-BASED WEAPONS.

The President shall direct the United States representatives to the United Nations and other international organizations to immediately work toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing a world agreement banning space-based weapons.

SEC. 5. REPORT.

The President shall submit to Congress not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, and every 90 days thereafter, a report on--

(1) the implementation of the permanent ban on space-based weapons required by section 3; and

(2) progress toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing the agreement described in section 4.

SEC. 6. NON SPACE-BASED WEAPONS ACTIVITIES.

Nothing in this Act may be construed as prohibiting the use of funds for--

(1) space exploration;

(2) space research and development;

(3) testing, manufacturing, or production that is not related to space-based weapons or systems; or

(4) civil, commercial, or defense activities (including communications, navigation, surveillance, reconnaissance, early warning, or remote sensing) that are not related to space-based weapons or systems.

SEC. 7. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 60 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space.

(2)(A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:

(i) Damaging or destroying an object (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on earth) by--

(I) firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object;

(II) detonating one or more explosive devices in close proximity to that object;

(III) directing a source of energy (including molecular or atomic energy, subatomic particle beams, electromagnetic radiation, plasma, or extremely low frequency (ELF) or ultra low frequency (ULF) energy radiation) against that object; or

(IV) any other unacknowledged or as yet undeveloped means.

(ii) Inflicting death or injury on, or damaging or destroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical and economic well-being of a person)--

(I) through the use of any of the means described in clause (i) or subparagraph (B);

(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations; or

(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person.

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.



See Also Outer Space Treaty of 1967 (which many go by as a treaty to stop 'rods of god'.

later done with the act of 05. http://space4peace.net/articles/kucinich_bill.htm

A BILL

To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by prohibiting the basing of weapons in space and the use of weapons to destroy or damage objects in space that are in orbit, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Space Preservation Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. REAFFIRMATION OF POLICY ON THE PRESERVATION OF PEACE IN SPACE.

Congress reaffirms the policy expressed in section 102(a) of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (42 U.S.C. 2451(a)), stating that it `is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all mankind.'.

SEC. 3. BAN ON BASING OF WEAPONS IN SPACE AND THE USE OF WEAPONS AGAINST OBJECTS IN SPACE IN ORBIT.

The President shall--

(1) implement a ban on space-based weapons of the United States and the use of weapons of the United States to destroy or damage objects in space that are in orbit; and

(2) immediately order the termination of research and development, testing, manufacturing, production, and deployment of all space-based weapons of the United States.

SEC. 4. INTERNATIONAL TREATY BANNING SPACE-BASED WEAPONS AND THE USE OF WEAPONS AGAINST OBJECTS IN SPACE IN ORBIT.

The President shall direct the United States representatives to the United Nations and other international organizations to immediately work toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing an international treaty banning space-based weapons and the use of weapons to destroy or damage objects in space that are in orbit.

SEC. 5. REPORT.

The President shall submit to Congress not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, and every 6 months thereafter, a report on--

(1) the implementation of the ban on space-based weapons and the use of weapons to destroy or damage objects in space that are in orbit required by section 3; and

(2) progress toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing the treaty described in section 4.

SEC. 6. SPACE-BASED NONWEAPONS ACTIVITIES.

Nothing in this Act may be construed as prohibiting the use of funds for--

(1) space exploration;

(2) space research and development;

(3) testing, manufacturing, or production that is not related to space-based weapons or systems; or

(4) civil, commercial, or defense activities (including communications, navigation, surveillance, reconnaissance, early warning, or remote sensing) that are not related to space-based weapons or systems.

SEC. 7. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 110 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space.

(2) The terms `space-based weapon' and `space-based system' mean a device capable of damaging or destroying an object or person (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on Earth) by--

(A) firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object or person;

(B) detonating one or more explosive devices in close proximity to that object or person; or

(C) any other undeveloped means.

Though seriously the last time anyone considered using nuclear weapons and other orbital weaponry was the late 1950's. For more info I used this: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/826/1

Though in general Fas for the actual time to fall from a Geosynch orbit http://www.fas.org/rlg/030522-space.pdf

Another weapon much discussed is long-rod penetrators. The idea is that these long tungsten or
uranium rods would be orbited, and (according to the RAND Report) de-orbited by canceling their
orbital velocity, so that they would fall essentially vertically through the atmosphere, striking their
target with enormous energy. Two problems that will not be alleviated by the progress of technology:
the energy is larger the higher the orbit, but the fall time is greater as well. The energy of high
explosive corresponds to a material speed of 3 km/s, and one does not arrive at a similar energy per
gram from a projectile dropped from altitude until one reaches 460 km, with a corresponding fall time
of 12 minutes; a fall from GEO takes almost 6 hours and provides about ten times the energy density
of high explosive.
A rod would need to be guided accurately to strike its target within some meters in order to destroy a
surface target by the explosion.
Long rods might be used to penetrate through earth to hard or deeply buried targets. However, the
physics of high-velocity impact limits penetration depth as shown by high-speed photography of a
bullet impacting steel at just above 1 kilometer per second. A copper-jacketed lead bullet fragments
against the hardened steel, but in the process produces a pressure sufficient to leave a small crater.
Very strong projectiles impacting earth or rock at similar speed can penetrate to depths several times
their length.
Tests done by Sandia laboratory confirm predictions that, even for the hardest rod materials,
penetration is maximum around 1 km/s. Above that speed, the rod tip simply liquefies, and
penetration depth falls off, becoming effectively independent of impact speed. Therefore, for maximum penetration, such rods would need to be orbited at very low altitudes, and could only
deliver one ninth the destructive energy per gram as a conventional bomb. The effort is entirely
mismatched to the results.
Dominating the cost is the need to put the rod into orbit in the first place and later cancel its orbital
velocity so that it drops back to earth. The propellant required to place the entire weapon in orbit
must suffice to lift both the rod and its attendant deorbiting propellant. For low earth orbit, the total
velocity change of about 15 km/s typically requires several thousand times the orbiting mass in
propellant. Taking the typical $10,000 per kg launch cost to LEO, and assuming a 0.1 ton rod with
the 3 tons of propellant to stop its orbital motion, the launch cost to orbit would be some $30 million.
And for timely delivery against a single target at temperate latitude, several rods in each orbit would
be required and a good many orbits—say 10. Clearly, the more conventional deorbit maneuver would
be preferable, with a small energy change and the use of atmospheric drag (combined with wings or a
lifting-body approach) to preserve much of the orbital velocity as the rod approaches the vertical. Whatever the effect actually achieved against a target, it is far better to propel the rod directly from
launch to target and avoid orbits altogether -- by placing the rods on ballistic missiles. Specifically, a
one-km/s penetrator could be provided flexibly by a nominal solid rocket motor giving an acceleration
30 times that of gravity—so 300 m/sec2. The desired 1 km/s would be obtained in 3.3 s, over a
distance of 1.65 km. A speed of 3 km/s would take 10 s and a distance of 15 km. The cost would be
some $100,000 or less, plus whatever cost for the terminal guidance system--which is surely no
greater for the ballistic missile than for the orbiting projectile.

The fact is that I have a long time to intercept, they stand little to no chance of survival even against the laser (which range is negated for this and can literally vaporize them on reentry given enough time). This attack is overly cool, but impractical, overcostly and down-right wrong for the ability to destroy the targets given their ability to fire. The range is not limited based on the nautical miles here as before, but the range is infinite, but is directly proportional to the energy. Givin this mode of attack (even for 12 minutes of low-orbital weapons) I am sure to destroy them with ease as they continue linear pathes down to Earth, each time increasing the heat and eventualy hitting the point in which the tungsten vaporizes or changes the shape enough to make it go off-course. While a poor target for Stratobombers (given the range) as you get closer to them the ability to destroy increases as divergance goes down and Kj/a goes up.

Truely if you do not see why such weaponsystems are impractical and given a response time as such that betwen 12 mins-6.1 hours (very low (barely space) orbit to Geo-sync orbit) is not enough to destroy the counter-measures to either the anti-missile satellite shots (assumed to be in low orbit, while the tungsten rods are in high orbit (near Geo-sync for the basis of this attack (so they can project the their power without having timing windows). ALSO! The anti-missile satellite (unless a high number of them overlap) will move in an out of range as it passes over the world. Given this time of no less then 40 mins it is unlikely to make a secondary counter-attack as well, but the ability to predict and fire them is almost a godmod of itself as ICBMs missile trajectory and speed is very hard (read: near impossible) to stop on the launch is not possible by using the same system against it as tiny errors and my ability to counter the countermeasure still exists.

So for ALL of those reasons I say that Artitsa is CLEARLY not MT or even low PMT. Also I say that Haraki's weapon systems are impractical and godmodding of the ability of their effectiveness and systems if in the MT world. Also that they are impossible until late-PMT at the very earliest as that type of countermeasure simply cannot exist to missiles of ICBM nature, nor can near or are geo-sync satellites able to deliver a punch as so with no chance for interception (godmod!) to take out my systems.

First off, on slavery: Whether you are in the Anti-Slavery Alliance doesn't concern us. You are in the Slave Traders' Union, which is all the reason we need to attack you. You also purchased five thousand political prisoners from Llanoran and put them to work doing forced labour. Again, all the reason we need to justify an anti-slavery war. Besides that, NS is freeform RP. By rights, we could invade you just because we felt like it IC.

About the orbital weaponry: First of all, RL treaties and agreements have no effect in NS. France doesn't exist. America doesn't exist. The United Nations as we know it does not exist. These agreements do not exist, and were never signed or ratified by any NS nations. Orbital weaponry is a very common thing in NS, even in MT, and is maintained by pretty much every medium-to-large-sized nation, and given that pretty much every major warring nation has godrods, I was kind of assuming that since you'd been around for a month interacting with people that have them, you would understand that they aren't an unguided rod of tungsten, but rather have a guidance computer, rocket/jet/whatever-the-fuck-the-person-wants engine, and manoeuvring fins. My apologies for assuming you wouldn't think that just because I didn't mention the exact attributes of every single thing in my post they don't exist.

About Scram-jet. It's just as MT as your lasers are. Working scram-jet devices have been built by several laboratories since about 2003, and are being applied into use for military technology over time by the same laboratories. Just like your lasers. If you get to ignore the scram-jet, we get to ignore every one of your laser weapons.

About melting tungsten with lasers: If you even so much as try that, I can scream godmod just as loudly as you can. Tungsten's melting point is around 3422 degrees Celsius, and until you can provide solid evidence (not just one link to a BBC article about a completely different and much smaller type of laser) that your lasers can maintain that temperature for long enough to completely melt a multi-ton brick of tungsten, there's no way I'm going to believe that.

About the cost to put tungsten in orbit: Yeah, it's pricy. My defence budget is 46.94 trillion US Dollars (http://nstracker.retrogade.com/index.php?nation=haraki). What of it?

About extrapolation on existing technology: This is how NS MT works. I suggest you read Illior's brief on NS modern technology (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=494339).

About the differences in the technology we are using and how I can justify it very simply: There are a lot of very smart people on NS. Most of them are just as opinionated on their chosen fields as you are, and just as willing to share their insights on any subject, any time. There are a lot of these people.

These people use, or at least acknowledge godrods in MT. These people do not use lasers in MT, and argued against you when you tried to use them.

I am more willing to believe a host of people probably just as smart and knowledgeable about physics as you are, than one lone voice who could well just be bluffing to avoid the IC destruction of his nation.

About ignoring everything that doesn't exist in real life: Okay, let's do that. I'll delete my posts about orbital attacks. You delete your posts about lasers. The weapons I am using do not exist in real life. The weapons you are using do not exist in real life. We can either acknowledge them both, or disacknowledge them both. Sound fair?

Didn't think so. You know why? Because if you delete your lasers, you don't have anything special to defend your nation with. I notice you were perfectly willing to go along with this RP as long as it was poor, stupid, unintelligent-about-lasers Haraki attacking you. As soon as I came up with a way to counter the one weapon you could use to defend yourself against the Gholgothan armada approaching, you instantly put the RP on pause, ignored my allies who were invading for the exact same reason as me, and started shouting at me OOC about using a weapon which is very, very common in NS roleplaying, whether in MT, or PMT, or what-have-you.





Oh, and by the way, you're just as guilty of violating your own cited orbital treaties, by firing missiles at my satellites.

Though seriously the last time anyone considered using nuclear weapons and other orbital weaponry was the late 1950's.

[/spacehistory]
Err, Polyus (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/polyus.htm) and the Strategic Defense Initiative (which also involved Thor AKA "godrods") were 1980's. Only proposal I've seen for orbital nuclear weapons in the 50's was Deep Space Force (which wouldn't have actually seen deployment till the sixties at any rate).
[/endspacehistory]

Eralineta your arguments seem to depend upon a leap in logic from his weapon systems being "impractical" or "of limited utility" to being "impossible", and the former assertions are themselves based upon dubious reasoning.

For instance, working scramjets have been tested and, although an active military scramjet has not been deployed, neither has the sort of laser you describe using to destroy godrods.

Now, godrods themselves are clearly not impossible or "against physics" as you freely admit when discussing their re-entry behaviour. There is, afterall, nothing theoretically difficult about dropping a piece of metal off something that is already in orbit. Your argument, which is partially valid, instead focusses on their usefulness. But in fact even this argument is spurious, as it assumes that the satellites are in GEO (you later admit that they could be a lot lower, and your response time could be greatly decreased) and also that they are not boosted towards the earth using a rocket (which would greatly reduce time to impact and error again), or subsequently guided using fins.

Your points about real life treaties banning these weapons are irrelevent as Haraki has never said his country is a signatory of any of these.

Little you have said is convincing.

*sigh* Unlike scramjets which worked for a mere 16 seconds and you could not possibly have anyway to use them (and the fact the scramjets are being used in the wrong way (Mach 5+ at least to be effective) you are defending something that is not even near possible by current technology standards. Frankly the problems of Scramjets are too much, its not an issue of money or form, but of material. No Scramjets, this is not hard to refuse in MT.

My lasers DO work. They have been built and have been in completed testing. They DO work and are in production. Based on scalability is the only thing I have over you.

If you read the post instead of skimming (I know you did it, cause you wouldn't be arguing this point if you read it). I never said you COULDN'T use orbital weapons, but I told you that your ability to drop them at the time required to be effective ranged from 12 mins to 6 hours on descend. Can you please specify if your rod-launchers a near/at geosync or not. I cannot possibly work with something that I have no ability to calculate the nessessary time to work with. Also please give the numbers from now on. This is the second post inwhich you do not specify units deployed or action taken. Just for ease of use I implore you to actually specify because it seems that I may have overreacted to the damage as I gave your missiles an intercept rate of a mere 30% by my defenses. You knocked out my business in a single opening shot and crippled my decoy fields and exposed my real runways and are getting only mimimal resistance at this time (moblization issues....).

Now, don't be a little crybaby yourself. All I want to know is how far up those satellites are so I can figure the interception chance. Also I want to know how your low orbit satellite can stop an ICBM that can take out the satellites. If it is low enough I can use the divergance on my beam and see if I can destroy the missiles or not in time. For this I also need a range speed. (Just to ensure that your missiles will hit based on their own calculation or not). Seriously though, if low-orbit anti ICBM missiles capable of hypersonic interception on a sharp ballistics course are so easily countered with 100% accuracy and ease as shown are by any length MT I'm a grandpa.

Oh and nice try on the orbital thing, I was telling AMF that it existed IRL. Of course people use orbital weapons, but I was trying to show that the means to have an effective and practical system is not possible in MT by any means. This also goes to extend the basis of each system that is clearly not possibly by FT means. A Mach 10+ scramjet missile is not possible.


Just for you to double-check your ability to intercept, try the Topol(M) SS 27. That's my anti-satellite and main ICBM (non-nuclear). If you can predict its course and shoot it down you just won the modder-of-the-year award. Because it has no set trajectory or path. So please, don't tell me how my technology works. You might want to read up on it.

Oh and nice try on the orbital thing, I was telling AMF that it existed IRL. Of course people use orbital weapons, but I was trying to show that the means to have an effective and practical system is not possible in MT by any means.

I was merely correcting your dates. No need to get riled up dude.

Oh and nice try on the orbital thing, I was telling AMF that it existed IRL. Of course people use orbital weapons, but I was trying to show that the means to have an effective and practical system is not possible in MT by any means.

Err, FOBS?

Eralineta your arguments seem to depend upon a leap in logic from his weapon systems being "impractical" or "of limited utility" to being "impossible", and the former assertions are themselves based upon dubious reasoning.

For instance, working scramjets have been tested and, although an active military scramjet has not been deployed, neither has the sort of laser you describe using to destroy godrods.

Now, godrods themselves are clearly not impossible or "against physics" as you freely admit when discussing their re-entry behaviour. There is, afterall, nothing theoretically difficult about dropping a piece of metal off something that is already in orbit. Your argument, which is partially valid, instead focusses on their usefulness. But in fact even this argument is spurious, as it assumes that the satellites are in GEO (you later admit that they could be a lot lower, and your response time could be greatly decreased) and also that they are not boosted towards the earth using a rocket (which would greatly reduce time to impact and error again), or subsequently guided using fins.

Your points about real life treaties banning these weapons are irrelevent as Haraki has never said his country is a signatory of any of these.

Little you have said is convincing.


*Sigh* I never responded to it, so don't think otherwise. I'm still asking for the orbit the satellite is in to even begin figuring out if I can do it or not. Clearly the time issue does matter, if I have 6 hours to stop it from Geo-sync I think I can take care of it. Though RP wise he gave me less then minutes it seemed. Also I do not know the specs on the rods, usually when I think of the rods, I envision the old giant tungsten rods shooting like the LoL into targets, both of which still suffer from accuracy (he did say it was determined in the satellite, but I do not know enough, so I never responded to it yet) and other issues.

Seriously, if a laser can cut through stainless steel or aluminium (up to an inch thick) at a mere 7KW (to melt it, 2800 F) however, since lasers are pulsed light they work in entirely different manners compared to flame. The amount of energy would be considerably less as a laser can vaporize it easier. I doubt the entire rod would be destroyed, but rather more of it being cut into or damaged badly and thrown off course. Do to the size of the beam it will take some time to follow it on down and cut it in half, but that alone should interfere with it enough to throw it off target. Same goes for the missiles, as long as the tungsten heats up and becomes weaker to the intense forces on it the better, eventually leading to break up. The same easily applies with the anti-missile missiles from the satellite (I doubt this do to range, but we shall see. My effectiveness on the Tungsten rods should be at about 1500 km, but given the missiles are well shielded and while closer are harder to target and may not be necessary in the end. I have less chance of destroying the missiles intime do to range/time issues. Though I am more sure about the rods anyways, the goal is far easier then interception of high altitude missile interception.

My ultimate ability to stop the tungsten rods gets better and better as they come into the bases. As they move in they are very fast and can be targeted in full by the 10 MW laser and blast it in a series of pulses. The charging on the 10MW output takes far longer and is about 3-4 mins per shot (for safety of the laser on cooling power). Though in a dire need it could be pushes to 21 individual bursts (like a hexagun) and take individual charges for a much quicker and safer approach that won't needlessly damage the fiber systems. This however is up to the option of whether my collection of 48kw lasers can really handle it.

(Note....they are groups of lasers, the laser system is the size of a ten 18 wheelers, they are spread out throughout the HQ, but the focusing is one single point. My lasers are actually just groupings of what the US Army already knows is an effective weapon, but is just concentrated. So don't say otherwise, they are infact WEAKER in basis and larger for less output. Just to make things clear, they are half the power of the ideal 100 kw laser for mobile operations, and as such are clearly at a modern potentional. Production is expensive and costly, but they aren't as 'uber' as you think. )

Sorry, you've been on NS for how many years? Oh really? That many eh? Cause most of these guys have been playing for at least one, myself four. We've been through all these discussions before, and as you can see in this thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=494339) we've already made our decisions.

Well guys... Im thinking Eralineta no longer exists and we should move onto the next nation.

Sorry, you've been on NS for how many years? Oh really? That many eh? Cause most of these guys have been playing for at least one, myself four. We've been through all these discussions before, and as you can see in this thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=494339) we've already made our decisions.

Well guys... Im thinking Eralineta no longer exists and we should move onto the next nation.

OOC: How does playing a game longer than someone else suddenly make you an authority Artitsa? All it makes you is someone who is a bit more aware of the "conventions" or "accepted rules" of the game. It does not make you an engineer (or whatever else) unless you have those qualifications. Now, in the region that I'm in, we actually do have an engineer and while I have played NS longer than him, I defer to him in regards to matters of what you guys are presently talking about.

By your logic, Artitsa, I have been playing longer than you. Therefore, I am right and you should defer to me.

Haraki, why are you still wasting your time? -.- Wouldn't it be better rping with someone who doesn't whine more than greenpeace?

Blah. I don't care anymore.

(edit: sorry was in a bad mood)

Scramjet missile of Mach 15 in MT = fair? I disagree...

I feel that my weapons and ability to use them are right, however just because you feel that having a laser in MT is overpowered is just childish. They work now and therefore with the $250+ mil price tag of a single Oceanus I think I got it covered. My total production of ships is two per year. I have no other naval defense. My airforce is limited to about 440 planes. My usable tanks are just 12,000 strong. A collection of high-tech MT weaponry with 10 to 1 support to combat troop on MAM and MOM corp. I doubt you should moan and groan about my lack of action to something I don't understand and pointed it out and then invited Haraki to explain. The only technology I am barring at this point is your SCRAMjet missiles in MT that can not even be controlled or used for any duration in MT, much less outside of the lab. I'm partial to RAM and all for pulse-detonation, but unless you can specifically tell me how every part of your missile works, runs and functions with a SCRAMjet over other supersonic (not hypersonic missiles) I will not take it as possible in MT.

ALSO the AM-98B Morning Star fails to even work as it has terrible thrust because of the poor speed! Let me ask you one thing. How does the SCRAMjet and the turbo jet work TOGETHER? I'm against your missile because its a godmod for one, and it doesn't belong in MT (up to 2020 or otherwise) To bad. I've researched and looked at missiles pretty closely, but I am just not satisfied at all to begin letting those kind of weapons fly around in any RP with me when they are both a godmod and outside the tech range.

Seriously though....Your missile destroys itself on launch. Its system is all wrong and that won't save you here.

NP-M-120 Hybrid
Dry Weight: 405kgs
Length: 1.082m's
Width: 0.434m's
Thrust Development: 12,176kg's
Nozzle Arrangement: 3D thrust vectoring; 45*
Description: Long Range ASM or Land Attack; Speed of Mach 5 to Mach 7 using both Pulse Detonation Engines (PDE) and SCRAMjet in a hybrid fashion. Range estimated at 400+ miles.

Jeeze... three engines. Two bad the drag causes the thing to rip itself apart even if you could manage the heat of Mach 5+. However pulse detonation engines lose the thrust as they go that fast and would be torn apart. And oh ya... 405 kgs....? No offense but you have no idea about missile design or how to maximize thrust and potentional.

Now...I'm gonna be nice and tell you can swap those three engines (the godmod) for a Ramjet and take that to Mach 5 in PMT. Or you can use solid rocket boosters and go beyond that. If you follow the new missiles you'll see that sometimes its just not effective to use scramjets or pulse detonation in missiles. Seriously, I wish you'd rethink this three engined design and just stick with a single source of thrust or use a small booster to get the Ramjet (Mach 3+) or maybe later SCRAMjet (Mach 5+ only) started for the actual use. Your costs will be cheaper and it will work. I think the missiles would be prevalant around 2030-2040 range on RAMjet, and 2050ish Scramjet, but much like the new Russian model....I could be off by 10 or more years in either direction, it will come down to cost/effectiveness and the need. Though the technology will be available in mid PMT.

What three engines are you talking about? I really don't want to sound like a dick but here we go..

1. Look up mission adaptive skin
2. Look up Active Aerolastic Wings
3. Look up 3D thrust vectoring
4. Engines are not firing at the same time. The original engine is required to achieve speed to engage SCRAMjet.
5. I have no problem with your laser. I happen to use some myself.
6. I haven't claimed Mach 15..
7. Please post your credentials. I'd love to know by whom I am being preached at?
8. So you'll allow my Super Dreadnoughts?
9. Last question: RAMjets are being used right now... yes or no?

Edit:
10. Are you mostly refering to the drawing? If so... I can always change that.
11. LOLZ AT WEIGHT OF ENGINE. Yeah on that one Im going to go ahead and admit I made a hyooge mistake there. Easily fixed though. Oh and I guess I'll just go right ahead and start drawrin a new picture for you.

A point about your extended quote brought to us by the "lets turn an SLBM into a kinetic impactor lobby" not that this is a wholly bad idea in itself.

(A) they are biased as they want to keep the large SSBN force as intact as they can in a world where big nuclear missiles are debatably about as useful as a 10 million dollar banana and because watching there boats get turned into SSGNs I do believe sickens them.

(B) The contractors want to keep making ICBM sized missiles as that is what they are set up to do. The US military "wants" god rods for killing deep hard targets. Well quite frankly they should build MOAB sized supersonic earthquake bombs but that is just my opinion. Users of KE do not need penetration. You can live with a surface blast thank you so very much.

The rest of this post is mostly barely relevant ramblings already replicated by less tipsy debaters.

Oh as a side note if you want to advise someone to do something do not be so condescending and dictatorial and I might add aggressive against members of a long standing role playing community you got involved with. If you do not wish to get involved pull out rather than cause all these damn bad vibes or try for compromise rather than all out "Im right your wrong". Yes your your own DM but you have to talk to the other co DMs and yes sometimes just sometimes the "ulster says no" standpoint is the correct one. Part of the joy of the game is social, I hardly see your standpoint or method of argument in any way useing real world soft power to solve the issue of SCRAM jets versus more lasers than you can shake a stick at. You want your laser capacity (bloody next near useless against massed sea skimming ASM salvoes but who am I to argue with your naval mass allocation) and claim with the almighty wiki like power of quotes on yon solid state and your opposition wants a working scram jet. Your a highly technical player and it shows, you take no small amount of pride in your knowledge of weapons systems and you seem to have trouble accepting that sometimes people fudge figures in NS. Not to annoy you, and certainly not to be insulted by you but because its a game and being in the ballpark is fine. Space shuttle + 10 percent F22 + at this point I do not want to even think about it.

The following paragraph is effectivly spurious for the most part and I realise now merely reiterates what others have said or in the case of Haraki linked to.. but what the hey I just wandered through this and your getting doc filtered through beer and a Friday night in the pub. Expect inconsistency's in my memes and what the hey reason.

Peer regulated cooperative game. By that I mean we, the populace get to decide with you also the populace what goes on in RP as there is no DM or rather everyone is co DM. You so far are playing the "injured party" as such to more than a little extreme for someone trying to fight an alliance of nations that are on there own exponentially more capable. If they were armed in the style of 1939 Russia you would probably loose. Bantering over tech limitations for the glory of the roleplay while you wish to sit behind a wall of light is just not right. The real world right now tested MDBA Meteor does Mach 4+. Sure that is air to air with an exotic ram cycle but what the hey. Mister experimental scram jet is meant to crawl up to mach 7 and hyshot that british jobby did 7.6. Sure these are the bleeding edge and sure the fuel constraints are still murder but this is working hardware. Giant solid state laser arrays ..well actually I like them though not applied as you have. Solid boosters as you mentioned can play hob up to silly speed and what ooh what of SABRE. I cannot believe it will take another 30 odd years to crawl our way up to mach 15. There is no real physical reason why one cannot build a Mach 15 missile given NS scale funding.

It would be simply too costly or rather not cost effective for payload to deploy fast in a world that is essentially conventionally speaking at peace. It is insane overkill for the real world. Welcome to NS warfare, Insane overkill is all part and parcel of it.. Investment in NS is as stated entire levels of magnitude greater. Expect better results to be roleplayed and a higher level of "MT" materials technology to be available. Cost effective? who cares when its a pride project of a caste based empire or the like .. Arguments based on real world precedents whose limitations are in a large part monetary in nature cannot be applied in detail to NS. Mach 15 is possible, the relevant technology is hardly fiction.

Effectively you have no chance of victory if you want to rain on peoples Mach 15 parade then why if any sane government would have capitulated by now and come to terms useing there nuclear option to maintain a semblance of balance in the agreement have you not acted thus? Perhaps because reality really cant be forced all that heavily into NS. The entertaining way the game effectivly operates is that you design your RPs with effectively some quite harsh preconditions you will not enjoy NS for long or with many players. It is general consensus that slightly larger, slightly nastier slightly more capable missiles are well within the bounds of physical and monetary realm of MT. You mister 07 pants who has a larger laser show than Disney should in the light of all reason not find this too much of a leap. Oh and by the by monetary real world scale issues generally cannot be applied to NS though physical limitations can and in the MT setting should be. Thus yeah bigger nastier faster missiles useing what for us poor money bothered people is the next generation of nasty missile engine, NS MT by and large has bigger nastier everything. You can go claim otherwise, I do not see the vast majority of people conforming to your "NS" view. Modern Tech has realism. It is not perfect realism as its basis is not real.

Useing a pulsed laser to cause the target to explode with thermal shock is a good idea. bloom is not a good idea. The target can be in orbit spun quite fast indeed, the target is made up of a material that is very very good at dealing with thermal energy.

By 1953 the real world knew that generally speaking rods make bloody awful shapes for re-entry. .. so indeed why this fixation on calling what should be a kinetic impactor a mere unguided metal rod. Because the US military wants a penetrator not just a kinetic impactor.

Let us consider the lofting capacity of a major NS state. It would certainly exceed that of the entire real world. It would by design have vulcan + multi hundred ton to orbit capable very heavy lifters. It has many states useing gaseous fuel closed cycle nuclear thermal jets/ rocket powered shuttles. Call it double digit kilotons per year for an NS 6 billion plus state with all of there populace and resources equivalent to the first worlds golden billion. Consider this space program with all available modern tech and a budget in the tens of trillions every year. Quite frankly much of this lofting capacity will be military. Let us take the Boeing Delta IV cost per kilo of US19,000.00 to GTO. Because what the hey we may as well make it less than cheap. For NS a stupidly expensive launch given the added economy of extreme scale and the wide spread use of nuclear rockets of several kinds (though thank god no Orions).

Light kinetic bombardment platforms to service surface targets of conventional or no hardening should at most be in LEO. 200 to 2000km. By conventional surface targets that I mean tank factories, oil refineries etc, the list just goes on of things you could begin to justify. By light I mean 10 kilogram 11.5 Km/s at 7 deg. 1,451 kilograms of TNT equivalent. Delivered for a lofting cost of 190,000 dollars if you have to use NASA. Hardly not cost effective in a world where 2 billion dollar B2 equivalents come in bulk orders.

Let us take a "big boy", the extreme end of the spectrum. A 2 metre diameter 79,168 kilogram monster kinetic impactor with a density of DU and a 7 degree re-entry, WELL within the lift capacities of NS heavy lifters. Assemble it in orbit in what amounts to a cheap ass stealth box. Do not think of cost analysis like that of the ISS. Quite frankly it will be much much cheaper given its relative simplicity. Let us put it a considerable distance out for starters. Let us say give it a multi day gravity slingshot assisted kick in the pants and a further 200 tons for an orbital booster packet to accelerate it to impact at say a horrible speed of 20 Km/s. This monster on impact will go off with 3.7 kilotons of fun and dig a 26 metre deep crater in most things.

What your paying for is APPLIED CLEAN LETHALITY and defence penetration. You have apparently a lot of very nasty solid state lasers and a great deal of coverage. You want this to cover a wide aspect of aerospace defence. Why risk a bomber when one can risk a lump of expensive metal. One does not tankcat into mordor nore does one apparently enter your airspace. Hucking a few bombs that have a damn good chance to get through and no risk to air crew seems like a damn good idea to me. It may not cost per TNT ton equivalent of cheap lobbed GPS guided bombs or unusable atomics but If one cannot within the realms of sanity use nuclear option the kinetic given it is the ONLY viable clean option becomes necessity. This however risks the wrath of justifiable nuclear ABM launches (and they better be, conventional warheads will do bugger all to this beast).

The lofting cost for the impactor even at Delta IV prices? a paltry 1,504,192,000.00 USD. One Billion five hundred and four thousand million. Not even a single proper trillion. The cost of the booster package ..call it 500 tons in total lets say 8,618,255,030.00. It seems like a stupid amount of money for a 3.7 kiloton blast ..but its a blast that can only be stopped by a strong orbital interception or the blatant use of nuclear armed ABMs above the target. The degradation to defence radar after the initial blasts of defence nuclear ABM fire would be more than worth the cost if your priority is lives and quite frankly 3.7 kilotons is worth waiting a few days for in a conventional war. A CLEAN city killer is worth a hell of alot.

Effective de-orbit from this hight should be swift and time to target never say in excess of say fractional orbital MIRVs. Hitting the kinetic impactor in atmosphere of any mass and competence with a high energy laser aiming for target brake up is inadvisable, you want deflection. Not only is the projectile by design and requirement able to handle high intensity thermal events for (relative to its lifespan) long periods but it should it be spinning. Once re-entry occurs you get a plasma shock cone around the target. This is annoyingly quite a bugger to fire a laser through given its great density and opacity, this is the ultimate thermal bloom in your eye and a veritable cornucopia of annoyance for those wishing to ablate to uselessness a kinetic impactor. It in essence giving the kinetic impactor a second layer of armour further again this is not a conventional RV. It does not slow down all that much and the shock cone does not go away and thus firey firey fireball of flaming ultra dense air being ripped apart on the molecular level remains. While 1 megawatt wonders like MIRACL when given a nice steady sat to play over can cook the systems a kinetic RV is entirely different and quite frankly .

Guidance of RVs with CEP areas of less than 5 metres is today not just attainable but practised.

Terminal speeds can and do far exceed multiple km/s.

The AMaRV tests (though its flight profile is entirely unsuited to kinetic impactors) proved that extreme manoeuvre's were possible during re-entry. "extreme" should not be required just minor alterations, local air pressure changes are mostly irrelevant to an RVs course with the shock cone effectivly buffering them from most of there effects.

Small round multi k/s impact tests bear little ability to scale when compaired to major multi ton kinetic impactors with PICA or SIRCA or any of the other rather fancy ablative heat shields. Increased lethality from say a DU/Copper matrix kinetic harpoon coated in a thick layer of ablative s with tungsten tubing should be nasty indeed.

Arguments that a significant impactor could not be shielded from the temperature and pressure are quite spurious the Galileo space probes atmospheric re-entry travelled at a rather above meteoric speed of 47.4 km/s managed to bore a hole rather deeply into Jupiter and survive temperatures in excess of 16000 K at peak shock. No god rod should EVER require similar capacities not the least given the unattainable nature of Galileo's velocity.

Weaponising space is expensive but relatively speaking more than a little within the real worlds capacity.

AM-98K Falling Star... was Mach 12 in terminal. I'm pretty sure it'd explode. Also... seriously three engines...come on. Look at your own descriptions.

No one asked me, but I'm first going to post Effects of Directed Energy Weapons (http://www.ndu.edu/ctnsp/Nielsen-EDEW.pdf) by Nielsen and then secondly say, as an aerospace engineer, practically everyone's aeronautical and astronautical designs on this board are broken and so if anyone insists on someone else knowing "how every part of [their missile] missile works, runs and functions" in some sort of technical detail, they had rather quickly realize they fail that test just as quickly.

I think that's the fairest I can be about the whole thing. In my professional opinion, the unfeasibility of the laser system (primarily concerning effective collimation and targeting) and the godrods are about the same. Hypersonic missiles already exist in the form of ICBM reentry vehicles, and they come in at well over Mach 12.

Finally, I'm highly dubious about the ability of a laser system to effectively engage any sort of naval contingent given that the naval forces have a higher rate of fire and over-the-horizon range. The T in THEL is in there for a reason; modern lasers are only really effective as a tactical in-theatre defense system. Shooting down low-supersonic artillery shells (low thickness, difficult acquisition and tracking), low-supersonic missiles (low thickness, difficult acquisition and tracking), and subsonic cruise missiles (low thickness, simple acquisition and tracking is in no way comperable to intercepting multiton kinetic warheads from space (high thickness, difficult acquisition and tracking), especially if said warheads are working in a FOBS-style system where prediction is necessarily highly difficult.

Edit: Another thought. Hybrid and multiple engines are actually rather common. Many ramjet missiles have a rocket stage to bring them up to ramjet speed. Turborocket, ramrocket, and ramturbo hybrid engines have been on the drawing boards for years and some of them actually work, although quite expensive and heavy. Given market forces of economy of scale (mass production) and improvement through operational data, there's nothing to say that a hybrid scramjet engine (especially as a scramjet is really just a tube) is beyond the realm of modern technology.

Of course, pulse detonation engines are the throwaway technofetishism of the day here but whatever.

Of course, pulse detonation engines are the throwaway technofetishism of the day here but whatever.

Don't judge my fetishisms!


AM-98K Falling Star... was Mach 12 in terminal. I'm pretty sure it'd explode. Also... seriously three engines...come on. Look at your own descriptions.

Im really really sorry, but I still don't see it? Can you quote that part for me?