NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: New picture and I am going to be revising things in the next couple of days but I need to keep this up for reference. Note to Esteria, don't post here, one of my threads being closed because of you is already enough. I will not read your replies and if you start posting I'll simply move this thread to another forum and put it up there for referencing then I need it.

DR-13 Chert

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4097/34234525hj9.th.png (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=34234525hj9.png)


Introduction:

RDU has never had in its possession a cruise missile that would be able to travel intercontinental distances and not be shot down by enemy missile defenses. DR-13 Chert (Devil, rus.) was a concept thought up by Stepan Fedotov a head of Institut Rocketnoye Effectivnosty (Institute of Missile Effectiveness). The RDU military gave him funding and the project has been in development ever since until now that it has passed trials and is ready for commissioning with RDU military forces.

Length:
-Total: 47.1m
-DR-13V cruise missile: 18.2 m
Diameter:
-Total: 3.1 m
-DR-13V cruise missile: 2.2 m
Weight:
-Total: 122 tonnes
Speed: Mach 4.5 (avg)
Flying Altitude: Quasiballistic
Engine: Booster (DR-13A): 4x RD-12 Solid Fuel Rocket Engine
Mid Section (DR-13B): 2x RD-91 Ramjet
Cruise Missile (DR-13V): 1x RD-95 Ramjet
Guidance: VRPB
Warhead: Up to 6500 kg
Protection systems: SPTP-1
Onboard Computer: Almaz-IX

Cruise Missile Variants:

DR-13V-V1:
Maximum Range: 10000 km
Minimum Range: 500 km
Warhead: 5 Mt nuclear, 4944.7 kg

DR-13V-V2:
Maximum Range: 9238 km
Minimum Range: 500 km
Warhead: 5500 kg, HE

MPP-1231-V1-21 Launch Vehicle:

Length: 31.8 meters
Width: 4.3 meters
Height: 2.7 meters
Weight: 21 tonnes without the missile
Wheels: 7x7
Engine: MD-MV-1513 diesel, 2341 hp
Speed:
-On-road: 42 km per hour
-Off-road: 21 km per hour

To draw attention to those massive canards on the front. Canards of that size will create excessive amounts of drag. Issues they had with the AIM-9M Sidewinder and its huge canards created major amounts of drag, which was why you saw F-16s carrying AIM-120 AMRAAMs on their wingtips because they created much less drag. However, I stand by what both Fris and Eralineta said and I too believe this to be a godmod so I will stand by it as such until their valid points can be addressed properly & corrected properly versus a clear dismissal.

Those are not canards, those are wings and here is a picture of Buran ICCM:

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/b/buranmis.jpg

Of course you gonna agree with them, its intended to be used against you. Fris had no points, he is a mod aka "not a very nice guy" (to put it politely so this thread wouldn't get locked up) Eralineta's points were not valid. Once again this is not and never was a god mod. I am going to go into a greater detail as I continue developing this write up (kind of like you never do in your write-ups) and maybe change a few things (its going to be longer and powered by only one thruster for one) and explain a few things but what Eralineta said, I really don't know why anyone with a brain would be listening to him, he misunderstood everything, came in trying to insult my intelligence (instead of constructive criticism that I would've taken) and then reported me to the mods like a snitch.

Those are not canards, those are wings and here is a picture of Buran ICCM:

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/b/buranmis.jpg

Of course you gonna agree with them, its intended to be used against you. Fris had no points, he is a mod aka "not a very nice guy" (to put it politely so this thread wouldn't get locked up) Eralineta's points had no ground behind them. But hey if you wanna play it like that, fine Im dismissing Sabertooth.

The armor on the Sabertooth has already been addressed and it's going to get lowered. You dismiss what Eralineta and Fris said just because they disagree with you and Eralineta had a lot of hard information behind him on that post. I could care less if it's going to be used against me or not it's the blatant godmod of the system, hell even a mod thinks so. As far as the "wings" go they're way too forward I'd bring them back more, too close to the front = too much drag.

I'll edit the pic a few times before the final version as I do the write up. Either way, the mod is not infallible, neither am I that is why Im changing things (this is to prevent a stab at a witty comment by you that was sure to follow). This is not a god mod, if Buran could fly 8500 km back in the day a missile of the similar size flying a bit larger distance (Buran was back in the day, Im sure you know that rocket engines and fuel has improved substantially) is possible...argh, its pointless, you're always stubborn and in this case also biased, you'll have to wait till I put the full write up up, this "debate" is over.

I'll edit the pic a few times before the final version as I do the write up. Either way, the mod is not infallible, neither am I that is why Im changing things (this is to prevent a stab at a witty comment by you that was sure to follow). This is not a god mod, if Buran could fly 8500 km back in the day a missile of the similar size flying a bit larger distance (Buran was back in the day, Im sure you know that rocket engines and fuel has improved substantially) is possible...argh, its pointless, you're always stubborn and in this case also biased, you'll have to wait till I put the full write up up, this "debate" is over.

*sigh* Let's try this again.

The Buran was never made for one. The propulsion system was archaic in modern terms, the rocket used standard ICBM rockets, but the problem was so apparent that they kept losing rockets. The first model lost all but 1 in the test. Then 3 of 17 on the Burya.

The problem with these ICCMs is that they are slow by modern standards. Back then they were amazing and were never fully tested or put into production. They were glorified for their range, but were very slow by normal standards. (Compared to ICBMs, which were ultimately chosen as best)

I'd look at something like the P-800 Oniks or the new BrahMos. These are the kind of missiles you want. They are over Mach 2 and will be pretty much unmatched in the NS skies, but if you REALLY want pure speed, you can use JT-10 fuel in your ramjet missiles. Now...your range maybe be upwards of 500 km, but it should break Mach 3.5. Though this depends largely on the amount of fuel. Somewhere around 1500 kg of fuel by my estimates for a 250 kg warhead on a RAMjet missile with a upper limit range of 500 km. Total launch mass would be about 3520 kg. 1020 kg for fuel 250 kg for warhead. 2250 kg for the body. This will EASILY get the speed, fuel, weight and launchability off the ground with no problems.

This missile would be two-stage. Solid for the initial push and then Ramjet as it breaks Mach 1. The seperation signals the start of the RAMjet which suffers a lag use in the engine for about 3 seconds until it begins to push up. The rate of increase on speed can be controlled as well, but ultimately you will have no problems with the thrust, which I can't seem to figure out. (Need the thrust maximum on the turbo-jet.)

However, I should advise you that these missiles might/will leak fuel until it hits Mach 2-3 when the heat expands the plates. Though I've already over compensated with the fuel requirements, and even then some by adding 20 kg lee-way. Ultimately it will come down to the engine you use and how good you are at producing them. Though based on the Isp I've given you plenty in this theoretical missile.

Cost for the missile:

Well. Closest I've come to is about $1.3M per missile. However it depends on the guidance system and warhead used. So you can be looking at upwards of $1.5 mil for state of the art stuff. It stands little chance of being intercepted in any course. It will swat down MOST aircraft, but if you are desperate it can be used to intercept rockets (don't forget normal missiles can do this as well, but the added range gives you an extra 200 km by most standards).

Hope this is better. If you need info/sources, just let me know, I can post them.

Alright what swayed me towards ICCMs is the impressive range and yet quasiballistic altitude which makes them much harder to track and shoot down then full-blown ballistic missiles. I am currently using my own slightly modified version of Kh-55 (mostly the guidance that I integrated into my VRPB battlefield simulation system), its pretty good with a range of around 3000 km but defenetly not a 9000 or even 8500 km missile. Bah, I know I can make this work, I'll do more research on the engines so far looking at RD-170 and 180 wanna see if I can work out something smaller in size but that works by the same principle and will give me the needed thrust. Im considering dropping the range to around 5000-6000 trading it off for a smaller fuel tank and smaller size, the missile will be hypersonic (as in my original write up) basically you know how it goes, the missile launches all the fuel is burned off very quickly but it also will be propelled fast enough to go a long way before the booster separates and desecrates and the cruise missile itself with its own engine will come out. Im considering having the first stage just fly in the straight line then the cruise missile being able to maneuver into its target. Thats what Im looking at right now.

Well now that we're civil, you got AIM? I might have some questions in the future although I'd like to do more of my own research first.

Alright what swayed me towards ICCMs is the impressive range and yet quasiballistic altitude which makes them much harder to track and shoot down then full-blown ballistic missiles. I am currently using my own slightly modified version of Kh-55 (mostly the guidance that I integrated into my VRPB battlefield simulation system), its pretty good with a range of around 3000 km but defenetly not a 9000 or even 8500 km missile. Bah, I know I can make this work, I'll do more research on the engines so far looking at RD-170 and 180 wanna see if I can work out something smaller in size but that works by the same principle and will give me the needed thrust.

The more complex the rocket the more problems your going to have for it. ICCMs can be shot down similar to ICBMs, but they are more likely to be done so. However, you need to build the ICCM and ICBM with the right systems to do so. Something that is increasingly more difficult.

The thing about the fuel issue is really bothering me. You can't just times the fuel by three and be done with it. It would really take somewhere around 4.5x the fuel to do something like that. (Just off the top of my head, I didn't recalc). I'm just worried about all of this when the engines themselves would be pushing the limits. The problem is that when I calculated the time to target it was 1 hou and 48 minutes to the target at max range. Its just so much simpler to use solid or liquid rocket boosters and burst down at max speed. True the trajectory is pretty much set in stone after that, but the time to target will greatly (and almost surely) allow any long-range systems to pick it up and a proper countermeasure can be fired or precautions taken. That's where this fails for me. Though I guess the quasiballistic trajectory gives you some leeway....up to you, but off the top of my head I can't think of the advantages of this over ICBMs.

Only got yahoo. Sorry.

Edit to your edit:
Hypersonic is DANGEROUS! If you put your engine in the ramjet will be near peak power already. I would use SCRAMJet, but they heat up so fast and the issues of localized heating have gone beyond me and other scientists on how to make it effective. Though if you have a super-bloated missile budget you could probably install thermal shielding on the entire engine and super cool it with liquid nitrogen. It'd be super expensive, but that might be your only way to get it working. SCRAMjets are hard to test because currently the engine and the launch vehicle are destroyed in the test. The chambers are super expensive to boot to.

Pulse-detonation might make a viable system, but hypersonic sends that out the window. SCRAMjet needs to have the air be supersonic so the blast doesn't blow the engine apart...the heating would be crazy to.....Gah! I figure you can maybe crank 20-30 seconds maximum out of a SCRAMjet now, but since its a missile you wouldn't care about the end result as long as it delivered the warhead. Make it three-stage and you might just have the most expensive, but fastest ICCM in NS. (Still much slower then ICBM though, but trajectory will be made in the last 100 km instead, making it near-impossible to intercept without a laser)

Bah, alright if Im thinking 5000 km range I might as well go with IRBM...I have a lot of things to consider, I'll work on it.

OOC:
I have my own nuclear strike hypersonic missile, but my damn E2 Nuclear Restriction Treaty prevents me from deploying it............... but it is FUN, especially since it uses something i havent seen anyone on Earth II use so far.
Its all a very strange secret..... 11,000km from a missile the size of a Tomahawk :D Guess how :cool:

OOC:
I have my own nuclear strike hypersonic missile, but my damn E2 Nuclear Restriction Treaty prevents me from deploying it............... but it is FUN, especially since it uses something i havent seen anyone on Earth II use so far.
Its all a very strange secret..... 11,000km from a missile the size of a Tomahawk :D Guess how :cool:

Magic?

I'll edit the pic a few times before the final version as I do the write up. Either way, the mod is not infallible, neither am I that is why Im changing things (this is to prevent a stab at a witty comment by you that was sure to follow). This is not a god mod, if Buran could fly 8500 km back in the day a missile of the similar size flying a bit larger distance (Buran was back in the day, Im sure you know that rocket engines and fuel has improved substantially) is possible...argh, its pointless, you're always stubborn and in this case also biased, you'll have to wait till I put the full write up up, this "debate" is over.

Not stubborn at all I think it's worth it to look at Eralineta's comments, that's all and I'm glad you are. I've asked him to comment on my Imsdal, Voodoo, and Luna actually.