NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok so a quick question about the FTLi. I know it inhibits FTL travel. However, what if you use warp drives that simply put you in a different dimension to travel in? And same question but with creating a wormhole to travel through? Thanks for all relevant posts.

Techincally Wormholes are the ONLY FTL that is remotly possible, I think. This has others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_than_light

If the "other dimension" system can also transport you over great distances in the normal dimension, than it's got to have some sort of connection to the normal dimension, unless it's a gate system. Take hyperspace, for instance: hyperspace is a different dimension, but "Mass Shadows"-the gravitational bodies in normal space of large size-can wreak havoc and destroy things in hyperspace.

If the "other dimension" system can also transport you over great distances in the normal dimension, than it's got to have some sort of connection to the normal dimension, unless it's a gate system. Take hyperspace, for instance: hyperspace is a different dimension, but "Mass Shadows"-the gravitational bodies in normal space of large size-can wreak havoc and destroy things in hyperspace.

Ok then what about folding space?

An Alderson Drive would be completely unaffected, though it isn't quite as versatile as say Star Wars or Star Trek type drives.

An Alderson Drive would be completely unaffected, though it isn't quite as versatile as say Star Wars or Star Trek type drives.

Alderson Drive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderson_Drive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderson_Drive

Ah figures. Gotcha

Here are two more potential FTLi systems:

Alcubierre Warp Drive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

Heim Drive

http://www.hpcc-space.de/publications/documents/PrinciplesOfAdvancedSpacePropulsionAIAA-paper-2002-4094.pdf

Both can get you to a place far away.

Then you make a traversable wormhole to send your ships in quickly or troops, scientists, traders, colonists, etc.

One of the most intriguing things in future tech is the almost universal FTLi communication system with similar protocols called by many names-- The Bell Quantum Tunneling Ansible, The Subspace Simultaneity Communicator, or quite simply the Subspace Modem.

Some people just say their FTLi systems inhibit any and all hyperlight travel within range. Others take a more "realistic" approach and have different FTLi systems to block different FTL travel methods. There are many variations on FTL technology in NationStates, and people have their own names for things, but most methods fit into one of four categories:
-Warp: altering spacetime around the ship to allow it to accelerate beyond the speed of light (anyone who watches Star Trek will get the idea of how this works),
-Hyperspace: travelling through a parallel universe where the relative distance between points in normal space is shorter (this is arguably the most common FTL travel method and can be manifested in a number of ways; Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica use hyperspace, and some jumpgate technologies, such as those in Babylon 5, do as well),
-Folding: creating a "gateway" that allows a ship to travel directly from one point in space to another point with little or no transit time (there are no excellent examples of this in popular sci-fi, but Andromeda uses a complicated version of the principle, and some jumpgates are based on the idea as well), or
-Extrauniversal: using an alternate universe as a staging ground from which multiple points in normal space can be accessed (this can be either a universe in which a single point maps to every point in our universe, or a more complicated system of gateways between universes).

Obviously, what can affect one will not necessarily affect the others. For that reason, I encourage people who use FTLi to explain which types of travel it affects and how.

[ooc: Woah, its been a long time since I posted on here...Okay, down to buisness.

Ok so a quick question about the FTLi. I know it inhibits FTL travel. However, what if you use warp drives that simply put you in a different dimension to travel in? And same question but with creating a wormhole to travel through? Thanks for all relevant posts.

Essencially it stops Faster then Light Travel, some people insist it only stops various types of FTL, but really...this can simply lead to someone FTLing a missile inside your ship, sure they probably won't, but I dislike running an RP based on this.

An Alderson Drive would be completely unaffected, though it isn't quite as versatile as say Star Wars or Star Trek type drives.

Actually its quite affectable, it is, after all "a form of wormhole", which means if you can stop wormholes, you should be able to stop that. Although there may be other funky things involved, but it shouldn't be hard to stop them.

Some people just say their FTLi systems inhibit any and all hyperlight travel within range. Others take a more "realistic" approach and have different FTLi systems to block different FTL travel methods.

How is this more Realistic though? FTL in itself is unrealistic, so making FTLi is just to stop someone saying "I can teleport this onto your ship and you can't stop it!" Or "I drop out inside your planets atmosphere and drop heaps of nukes but you can't hurt me cause your ships can't destroy mine huzzar!" See the reasons?

Obviously, what can affect one will not necessarily affect the others. For that reason, I encourage people who use FTLi to explain which types of travel it affects and how.

Slightly bothered, since your asking to explain which fictional Faster then Light Drive you cut out, then your asking them to explain how they block something they have no real understanding of how it works? Seems sorta silly, and rather pointless.

Anyways, thats all from me,
Love Anisarian, the Singing Lady.

I've always viewed FTLi as more of a balancing thing, and have accepted blanket FTLi and make use of it on a limited scale. Its basically there to keep people from close-jumping to your planet and obliterating all of your cities in the space of an hour. How individual players chose to implement it is up to them.

Also, I would like to propose the Dune universe as an example of fold-space technology. Sure, Dune doesn't go into much detail of its technology (its more about humans than tech), but it does have an example in the form of the Holtzman Drives. IIRC, these can move between two points with almost zero transit time; most of the "travel" time is spent loading and unloading the Jumpships.

I tend to ignore blanket "works on everything" FTLi and insist people tell me how theirs works. I don't feel this is an unreasonable thing since my FTL method uses too much energy to be used tactically anyways.

It really depends. I tend to accept FTLi as a weapon-shield equation - that is, if there's a thousand enemy ships projecting FTLi versus my one FTLing ship, I'll accept it. But if there's one enemy frigate trying to FTLi my entire fleet.. generally not.

Thats a good analogy HT. Well, heres a little info on my nation. I use flash drives, which are kinda folding space. Basically, I power them up and when I activate them, I instantly go from place to place, like a flash. From Point A to Point B. That's how mine works, so would that be in the wormhole/folding space category? And the way I made my FTli is basic. I didn't want a blanket all FTLi, so I dumbed it down a bit. When activated, it will stop all in battle jumping. Like some people like to FTL, come back and shoot at you, then FTL out. Bouncing in and out of FTl, I stop that and I stop people from FTling fighters, rockets, meteors, you name it. Thats all my FTli does.

FTLi's would be effective if the enemy force is trying to travel faster then light. The instance one travels outside the plan of light then this tech becomes useless. Like Balrogga and I. We used a Dime tech which allows us to travel from one point of a Dimension to another point of another. I call this Dime jumping. For Hobbeebian ships this is possible because of the biomech we have found and tamed. The bipomech system works in a way that takes an object and simply removes him from the current Dime and places him in one thats completely different. it took hobbeebians about 1000 years to map about 50 different dimensions. Hobbeebian dimensions are in themselves completely different dimensions then the next. Each with its own worlds and laws. Example:

If a Hobbeebian ship dime jumped into another Dimension Earth would no long be there. In fct we could be outside a galaxy .


Mapping would have taken 5000 years would it not have been for the biomechs already gathered data on different Dimensions.

That explanation would be fine, apart from the fact that it's a crock. FTLi affect dimensional travel - hyperspace, for instance. FTLi isn't limited to methods of breaking the lightspeed barrier - dimensional travel, spacetime warping, and wormholes are all included. If it effectively allows you to travel faster-than-light, it's out.

No a wormhole is not a method of travelling faster than light, it is a method of shortening the distance between two points in space. The object is not travelling faster, it is travelling a shorter distance. It is a linkage which shortens distance.

I would ask you to kindly brush up on your comprehension skills.

Let me requote what I just wrote.
If it effectively allows you to travel faster-than-light, it's out.

Effectively. Not actually. There is a marked difference between the two. Thus, the distance between Point A and Point B, for the sake of an example, is fifty lightyears.

If the wormhole shortens the distance to 1 lightminute, and you traverse that in two hours, you have effectively travelled faster than light, in relation to normal space.

So please, please don't just rush in and decide to dispense whatever you feel like saying to all and sundry, it's not helpful, and nor does it make you look intelligent.

I never liked the big honking FTLi that could supposedly cover entire systems and whatnot. Too much energy going into a constant drain and whatnot.

The Probability drive that I use can breach any FTLi field save for a couple rather specialized ones simply by the fact that arrival from a probability jump is a completely natural event, but when traveling over interstellar distances into combat situations its best to set the arrival point a goodly distance away from the actual combat. The drive uses a sci-fi'd up version of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, but the last thing the Godulans want is accidental comaterialization.

Hund's rule being what it is, if a vessel were to probability jump into another ship, the transit would reset itself in a manner that the vessel would appear a 'short' distance away in a random direction. 'Short' being on a cosmological scale of course, which would effectively put an errant vessel a few million light years away... in the BEST case.

Then of course there's the fact that the sheer number of quantum fluctuations needed to INITIATE transit means that while the drive can't be stopped, even the most mundane FTLi field can stop it from starting back up. In shorter ranges, the Probability Drive can do tac-jumps with remarkable effectiveness, but as mentioned if there's any FTLi field up that goes straight out the window.

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And from all the more detailed descriptions on Spacefolding, it seems to be a relatively instantaneous form of teleportation that requires TREMENDOUS levels of control to operate properly. One screwup and the sucker sends you to the other side of the cosmos...

[ooc: Woah, its been a long time since I posted on here...Okay, down to buisness.

-Snip-

Slightly bothered, since your asking to explain which fictional Faster then Light Drive you cut out, then your asking them to explain how they block something they have no real understanding of how it works? Seems sorta silly, and rather pointless.

Anyways, thats all from me,
Love Anisarian, the Singing Lady.

:D Naggeroth is back! Yaaay! You need to get on MSN.



Anyways, yeah, she has a point with that, FTL is absurd enough, FTLi is just plain weird, explanations are impossible.

As for how my FTLi works, tis called a Dimensional Wall Inhibitor or somesuch. Kinda common among some of those I know, partly due to use/abuse of it I'm sure. :P It prevents large scale alteration of the STC, so kills Temporal incursions, dimensional rifts (wormholes, dimension jumping), and warping of space-time. It might even prevent probability jumps if I remember how they work. Course, it is a field effect, so get far enough away and you can overpower it, and a large enough amount of energy can get though. I honestly can't tell you physically how it would work. It's a $plotdevice mostly, because I know I personally overuse tactical FTL jumps. That's what FTL travel really is, a plotdevice to make it so you can get from one system to another without taking eons.

I'd explain my FTL method, but I'm too lazy. Just suffice to call it 'Jump Space' and know that it's capable of insta-long range FTL if and only if you want to drain the reactors dry.

Probability Drive, at least in the manner I use it, in the most general terms possible, 'tricks the universe' into thinking the vessel activating the drive is supposed to be at its intended destination. Reality works to rectify the mistake and the ship essentially appears at its destination as if it was always there.

The quantum manipulations are all at the point of origin, so there's no real spatial warping or breach at the destination point. For all intents and purposes completion of transit is just a natural phenomenon.

So you have some kind of super tech device that can generate an inhibitor field across a whole star system. This is way beyond normal future tech. I am assuming that this thing can do it permanently. I can see someone having a fusion tunnel tapping into the local sun to run the thing. This would be high future tech. You would be protecting things like ringworlds, dyson spheres stuff like that, massive space habitats, etc.

So you have some kind of super tech device that can generate an inhibitor field across a whole star system. This is way beyond normal future tech. I am assuming that this thing can do it permanently. I can see someone having a fusion tunnel tapping into the local sun to run the thing. This would be high future tech. You would be protecting things like ringworlds, dyson spheres stuff like that, massive space habitats, etc.

[ooc: Actually, mine is comparitivly Low Tech cover entire system FTLi, but thats because of how it works. It doesn't stop the FTL from happening, it just sends the FTL weapon "away" using a Wormhole. The systems it uses to find this stuff means if you open an FTL portal/jump-in/whatever, you shall be sent BACK to where you came and, depending on the AI, with a plate of Cookies!

Also, NE, I disagree, YOU need to get on MSN more, I am on every afternoon and most of the weekend (Until I get my 360 I am not doing much else weekends), so I don't know why your not on, I DID delete a whole bunch of people, but I didn't block any of them.

Cookies are wonderful!
Love Anisarian, the Singing Lady]

My FTLi is a natural phenomenom. We haven't yet figured out how it works, but the current theory is that an odd combination of 4 nearby gas giants plus some very high magnetic fields disrupt FTL travel near our homeworlds. It's a double edged sword: it prevents someone from using FTL against us, but we have concluded that our natural FTL interference is why we haven't got our own FTL program working yet.

I'll have to agree with Naggeroth on this. Faster than light travel is unrealistic enough. There are many theoretical ways to move faster than light, but thus far no-one has come even close to constructing a working prototype that would allow faster than light travel.

Because there are so many different faster than light systems in NationStates, asking someone to individually describe the way they would block each and every one of them is absurd. There no complete database of every faster than light system in NationStates, either in or out of character. Many folk, myself included, have never fully explained just how their faster than light system works. I certainly never cared enough to fully describe the whole thing in technical detail, beyond what has been required by the plot.

This brings me to another point, namely that faster than light tavel in science fiction is ultimately just a plot device. It doesn't particularly matter how the Cherensky Drive in Starship Troopers works. It serves Heinlein's requirements that there be a reliable way to move between star systems, thus providing him with the required setting. Likewise, the Warshawski sails in Weber's Honorverse are a way for him to achieve the desired setting of warships, squadrons, and fleets fighting over strategically important locations far from friendly support. Certainly the entire conflict between Haven and Manticore would have developed very differently were both sides able to move to any star system instantly and at will, instead of being forced to fight over otherwise insignificant systems.

In general, faster than light systems are nothing more than a plot device. As a result, the end result is much more important than the way in which it is achieved. My faster than light systems suffer from time dilation, a massive flaw that severely hampers their commercial viability. I wanted a nationstate where Joe Everyman from Earth couldn't hop on a bus, visit Ma and Pa in their retirement home in Alpha Centauri, and be back home in time for dinner. That it might take a day subjective to cross the galaxy, or a year to go from the Moon to Saturn makes faster than light travel in Weyr a risky undertaking. Nevermind the absolutely ridiculous requirement that a ship attain relativistic velocity before initiating its faster than light system, thereby limiting the usefulness of interstellar travel even more. Note that I haven't said anything about how my system works. L.E.Modesitt Jr, who created the concept for it, doesn't explain the system's workings either. The end result, however, is very significant. A warfleet moving to help a besieged planet might wind up years too late. Colonists heading to an empty star system might arrive to find the place crawling with aliens. The effect, in the end, is much more important than the detail.

To get back to my original point, the effect of an individual faster than light system is generally more important than its precise workings. Asking someone to know in high detail the operations of a fictional device is not reasonable, especially with the proliferation of faster than light travel across NationStates. Also, because the effect matters more than the cause, whether a system allows someone to actually move faster than the speed of light, as in Star Trek, or simply folds space and shortens the distance traveled, as with the Tesseract Drive, is irrelevant. What matters is the ability to move across vast distances rapidly.

Faster than light inhibition, then, is also a plot device. How the system operates is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it can block a faster than light system which has significant travel times, because tactically that inhibition won't do anything. Likewise it doesn't matter if the system being blocked involves alternate dimensions or wormholes, or demons from beyond the moon. Just as the effect of moving across vast distances is more important than the technical details, the effect of blocking that ability is more important than the methods used. Both are plot devices, and both should probably be used where they are required by the plot.

My own faster than light inhibitors make all manner of faster than light motion becomes impossible. As a side effect it also cancells out magic. As a result, using this device near a planet occupied by Weyr would be quite suicidal, since as a rule Weyrean technology usually involves magic. Using this device near a Weyrean warship would also be suicidal, since only a handful of Weyrean warships are not powered by magic. Thus, plot device. Other folk can't drop in absurd amounts of reinforcements, but Weyr can't move in most of its own ships because they wouldn't work in the affected area. This sets up conflict of interests for any Weyrean in charge of the faster than light inhibitor system. Using it would result in countless deaths, but not using it might possibly result in losing the planet and perhaps the entire system.

I'd like to also bring up the example of dimensional bubbles, which I have seen abused to no end. The concept is interesting, and I've seen it used by several folk to good effect. A ship in the bubble can't affect things outside it, and vice versa. However, the logical extension would be to bubble hop -- drop out of the bubble, fire weapons, and drop back in before an opponent can effectively react. This makes for very boring RP, as do all things not agreed upon by all participants in a roleplay that bestow invulnerability. Faster than light inhibition, in this case, would then serve as a plot device alternative to invulnerable armor or super-shields or absurdly accurate weapons, explaining why one side wasn't annhialated, or didn't get bored and leave. Technically, dimensional bubbles aren't faster than light travel, and thus strict faster than light inhibitors shouldn't work on them, but then realistically there is no known way to create dimensional bubbles big enough to encase entire spaceships, so the whole argument of realism is rather pointless. The plot, in the end, generally should matter more than the technical details behind an imaginary device.

Also, NE, I disagree, YOU need to get on MSN more, I am on every afternoon and most of the weekend (Until I get my 360 I am not doing much else weekends), so I don't know why your not on, I DID delete a whole bunch of people, but I didn't block any of them.

Cookies are wonderful!
Love Anisarian, the Singing Lady
:P you're never on at civilized hours for me (EST) Damn time zone system, it's all the Railroad's fault. We should overthrow their oligarchic rule!



I agree with Weyr about FTLi being a plot device. FTL drives really are simply a way to get from point A to point B. I needed something that could run in areas of relatively unstable STC (compared to most space) and, since I'm located outside the Virgo Supercluster, something that will allow me to make it places before the end of the universe. Thus, a modified version of Homeworld Farjumpers, so I don't have to destroy the relics every time the Oracle blinks at me.

With FTLi, it's something to stop the terrible tac-jumping my style of drives are capable of, since otherwise it would be a boring game of jump-shoot-jump-shoot-jump-shoot over and over unto brain death.