NationStates Jolt Archive

Today we fearfully announce that the Anti Communist Treaty Organisation has begun it's global plan to cleanse the world of all non-Capitalists.

After a group of pro-Communist rebels seized a portion of the nation of Zanski, A nation that had been, until recently, stating that they had been planning the destruction of all communists, as multiple nations stepped in to demand that they back down from their aggressive stance, an internal rebellion overthrew the corrupt king and pledged in Democracy and freedom.

Multiple supporters of this free nation were prepared to join in and aid their takeover of the former corrupt regime, that is until ACTO stepped in, in the name of "protecting the "Lawful" government " they demanded that all support for the rebels end, or face destruction, New Nicksyllvania followed this up by declareing war against all pro-rebel nations, I will have to repeat that, as it bears repeating, they DECLARED WAR against, Wagdog, Shazbotdom, Chellis, Fallible, Krendakov, as well as The Lone Alliance.

This is a grave situation, with their intent clear, any nation that does not support pure capitalism is at risk, for if they suceed here, they will continue onward, they will continue until Absolute Capitalism is the only allowed government in the world. For freedom to pratice you economic beliefs, for the sanity in keeping a fascist system from overthrowing the world. We ask that you stand up and face these Imperial scum for what they really are. We ask you to fight, fight not for the safety of communism, or Socialism, but for the freedom of your nation to choose it's own economic freedoms. Fight for freedom, don't let them decide what government is right for you!

Thread:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519573

OOC: You haven't done your research, and neither has New Nicksylvania. ACTO is not really an alliance, just a band of nations who all hate communism and pledge to fight it. But it's not like we have an MDP or anything.

You haven't said anything about ACTO being officially involved, either, just that New Nicksylvania declared war against a bunch of communists. If that's true, then he's about to get dogpiled and destroyed. Serves him right for using ACTO as a shield.

OFFICIAL IMPERIAL PROCLIMATION
TO: Foreign Relations Departments, All Nations Involved
FROM: Mr Larry Williams, Minister of Foreign Relations

The Ministerial Leadership currently in charge of the Dark Empire of Shazbotdom while the Supreme Emperor is away has decided the following. After we have completed the following objectives.


We have destroyed the missile base
We have forced the nation of Zanski to Non-Nuclear status
We have secured the saftey of the people of the Dark Empire of Shazbotdom from any and all nuclear assaults from Zanski.


We will withdraw out of the sector. If the coalition wishes to continue in this war, we will not stop you. Although please do be advised that we will not partake in any campaigns against any other nation. we thank the members of the Coalition for their continued support to save the opressed.

ACTO Thread: OOC: Speaking of which, unofficial call to arms for those who want to fight!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12399588#post12399588
OOC: You were saying about ACTO not doing anything? Many nations in ACTO starting with Questors have said they are going to destroy the Communist rebels in Zanski, and that anyone who stands in their way will be considered hostile.
-----
Feel free to run and hide Shaz.

You still have the fact that New Nicksyllvania declared war on your Shazbotdom.

-----
BTW population lists.
Commies: Population of all nations, 19,976,000,000
Capitalists: Population of all nations, 14,079,000,000

ACTO Thread:
OOC: You were saying about ACTO not doing anything? Many nations in ACTO starting with Questors have said they are going to destroy the Communist rebels in Zanski, and that anyone who stands in their way will be considered hostile.

OOC: So your using OOC information for IC reactions, thats a great idea!

Feel free to run and hide Shaz.

You still have the fact that New Nicksyllvania declared war on your Shazbotdom.


OOC:
Yeah. New Nicksyllvania is weak. And if he does try and assault m nation, I have allies I can call. Don't underestimate the help of a good alliance.

OOC: So your using OOC information for IC reactions, thats a great idea!

No I'm just giving him the shortened version, for IC proof well:

[Official Declaration]

From: The Avisronite Department of State

Coming directly from the LFA's membership in the Anti Communist Treaty Organization, as well as our commitment to maintaining peace and stability around the world, the Libertarian Federation hereby supports the Crown Imperium of Questers' mission to protect the nation of Zanski from the communist invasion. Where we do not agree with Zanski for their blatant abuse of human rights, we feel it is more important to keep the nation from going red totally.

In order to support the LFA's doctrine on this situation, the Avisronite Navy will begin mobilising Task Force: Thatcher.

[END]

[ENCRYPTED MESSAGE]

TO: Zanski
FROM: The Avisronite Department of Defense

We would like to secretly fly in several squadrons of our Advanced Air Superiority Fighters and station them within your nation. We would like for this information to be considered TOP SECRET to everyone not allied with you.

[END]

[ENCRYPTED MESSAGE]

TO: The Crown Imperium of Questers
FROM: The Avisronite Department of Defense

We would like our own Task Force: Thatcher to join formation with your Task Force: Ronald Reagan in the Zanski theater. Is this possible?

[END]

OOC:
Yeah. New Nicksyllvania is weak. And if he does try and assault m nation, I have allies I can call. Don't underestimate the help of a good alliance.

Do you really want to pick a fight with ACTO?

Do you really want to pick a fight with ACTO?

If it wasnt for Quester, a couple of the bigger nations, and the fact that they'd just start a thermonuclear war, lots of people would pick fights with ACTO.

Do you really want to pick a fight with ACTO?

So what's he's supposed to do if Nick starts bombing his ships? Sit there and watch?

Nick IS the agressor right now.

If it wasnt for Quester, a couple of the bigger nations, and the fact that they'd just start a thermonuclear war, lots of people would pick fights with ACTO.

Quite a few large nations have signed it, including a few CAD people, lots of Haven folk and half the Sovereign League.

Quite a few large nations have signed it, including a few CAD people, lots of Haven folk and half the Sovereign League.
It doesn't make it any less hated though. Personally though, I'd love to see the whole thing dissolved, since it's just another excuse for nations to get away with leftist bashing.

But still I doubt EVERY member of ACTO would jump in on a war in which they are the Agressor.

Do you really want to pick a fight with ACTO?

OOC:
I never picked a fight with the ACTO. New Nicksyllvania is the one who is trying to pick a fight with me. I never declared war on anyone AT THIS TIME and He has declared war upon me. I gave an "Ultimatum" not tied to a war declaration. Why don't you read the whole other thread and then bitch at me, kay?

If it wasnt for Quester, a couple of the bigger nations, and the fact that they'd just start a thermonuclear war, lots of people would pick fights with ACTO.

Meanwhile, in real life, it looks like you'll have to pick a fight with the bigger nations as well.

And besides, a force easily capable of conventional victory won't resort to the nuclear option, my friend.

Quite a few large nations have signed it, including a few CAD people, lots of Haven folk and half the Sovereign League.

Thus proving my point.

OOC: Just to clarify things, I'm not part of the ACTO, although I would if I didn't have a mostly state controlled economy. I'm just anti-communist.

I also stated before that any military actions taken against Zanski would result in war. Launching missiles count.

OOC:
I never picked a fight with the ACTO. New Nicksyllvania is the one who is trying to pick a fight with me. I never declared war on anyone AT THIS TIME and He has declared war upon me. I gave an "Ultimatum" not tied to a war declaration. Why don't you read the whole other thread and then bitch at me, kay?

Actually almost none of the nations have declared war on each other, there are some against, Zanski, some against the rebels, but none against another nation... with the execption of New Nicksyllvania.

Thus proving my point.

Errr.... So you know when we win this, which we will if it goes to all out war and don't be surprised if we end up on your doorstep killin ur dudez, invadin ur borderz.

But still I doubt EVERY member of ACTO would jump in on a war in which they are the Agressor.

[OOC: To be fair, ACTO is far from the agressor. The agressor, in the end, is Shazbotdom.]

OOC:
OOC: Just to clarify things, I'm not part of the ACTO, although I would if I didn't have a mostly state controlled economy. I'm just anti-communist.

I also stated before that any military actions taken against Zanski would result in war. Launching missiles count.

And if you read the whole thread, I launched at him cause he fired nukes at my ships. I was there just asking for him to stop killing innocent civilians and commiting crimes against humanity and he fired nuclear weapons at me.

Plus, i'm not even Communist, i'm Socialist. Different position on the spectrum there buddy.

OOC: To be fair, ACTO is far from the agressor. The agressor, in the end, is Shazbotdom.

So i'm the agressor for asking him to stop killing innocents and RETURNING FIRE when he fired at me first with NUKES? Yeah. That makes sense. Other nations asked him to stop in the first place, how come they arn't the aggressor? Looks like you didn't read the whole thing either.

Errr.... So you know when we win this, which we will if it goes to all out war and don't be surprised if we end up on your doorstep killin ur dudez, invadin ur borderz.

I dont plan on starting no all out war, heck, I dont really care about Zanski, as long as he is dealt with.

[OOC: To be fair, ACTO is far from the agressor. The agressor, in the end, is Shazbotdom.]

Not really, Shaz declared no war on you, he just issued an ultimatum on Zanski and New Nicksilvanya.

Communique from the Kryozerkian PMO

We are completely indifferent to this and as such don't give a two-cent rat whore's ass about this. We are a large nation and we have no need to worry about being taken over.

Secondly... meh!

Sincerely,
Prime Minister Kane

Meanwhile, in real life, it looks like you'll have to pick a fight with the bigger nations as well.

And besides, a force easily capable of conventional victory won't resort to the nuclear option, my friend.

OOC: Hold on now. Real life?

Meanwhile, in real life, it looks like you'll have to pick a fight with the bigger nations as well.

And besides, a force easily capable of conventional victory won't resort to the nuclear option, my friend.

OOC: Hold on now. Real life?

Thats what I was gonna say. Whats this "real life" stuff?

VELKYA, NS =/= Real life.

Or if you don't know what that means

NS (DOES NOT EQUAL) REAL LIFE.

OOC:
And if you read the whole thread, I launched at him cause he fired nukes at my ships. I was there just asking for him to stop killing innocent civilians and commiting crimes against humanity and he fired nuclear weapons at me.

Plus, i'm not even Communist, i'm Socialist. Different position on the spectrum there buddy.

ICly, we consider that you were in his territorial borders and he had the right to. We don't consider killing of 100 civilians as a crime thus your intentions to us are void. Also we are just labeling you as communist just to justify ourselves.

Well, Actually it's Zanski for declaring war on Communism.

Never the less New Nicksyllvania you declared war on me, and I'll have to respond in kind. I'll avoid the ACTO fleet but you're ripe for the sinking, that is unless you give in to my demands and retract your declaration of war.

Not really, Shaz declared no war on you, he just issued an ultimatum on Zanski and New Nicksilvanya.

[OOC: He sent a massive fleet to Zanski first and fired into that nation. Regardless of an "official" declaration of war, it still amounts as such. That's like you saying a massive nuclear strike on your nation wouldn't be seen as agressive unless it was followed by an official declaration of war.]

Thats what I was gonna say. Whats this "real life" stuff?

VELKYA, NS =/= Real life.

Or if you don't know what that means

NS (DOES NOT EQUAL) REAL LIFE.

[Hint: We call that "flaming" where I come from. And further hint: You completely missed Velkya's point.]

Well, Actually it's Zanski for declaring war on Communism.

[OOC: Okay, we can say Zanski is the agressor if that makes you happy. Zanski =/= ACTO; which is a pretty big deal, IMO.]

[Hint: We call that "flaming" where I come from. And further hint: You completely missed Velkya's point.]

OOC: Wait. Where do you come from? Because I can't see any way to interpret that as flaming.

Thats what I was gonna say. Whats this "real life" stuff?

VELKYA, NS =/= Real life.

Or if you don't know what that means

NS (DOES NOT EQUAL) REAL LIFE.

[OOC: Implying a person doesn't understand something is flaming.]

[OOC: Implying a person doesn't understand something is flaming.]

OOC: Shaz flamed yeah, either way I propose we use this as the OOC thread for the main thread to stop the cluttering.

I think the communists should just give up now before more capitalist defenders show up, that's if you like your nation free...

Thats what I was gonna say. Whats this "real life" stuff?

VELKYA, NS =/= Real life.

Or if you don't know what that means

NS (DOES NOT EQUAL) REAL LIFE.Go back, read that post, and comprehend Velkie's point. kthx

So i'm the agressor for asking him to stop killing innocents and RETURNING FIRE when he fired at me first with NUKES? Yeah. That makes sense. Other nations asked him to stop in the first place, how come they arn't the aggressor? Looks like you didn't read the whole thing either.-_- yes, because dropping a fleet off someone's coast is perfectly peaceful and never has any warlike intentions, especially in the wake of numerous IC statements against the government in question and a lot of shouting about human rights.



To the roleplayers in this RP: is there a commie who would like to war with me one-on-one, to keep the main thread slightly uncluttered and more manageable?

OOC: Shaz flamed yeah, either way I propose we use this as the OOC thread for the main thread to stop the cluttering.

I think the communists should just give up now before more capitalist defenders show up, that's if you like your nation free...

Is that a threat?

I think the communists should just give up now before more capitalist defenders show up, that's if you like your nation free...

[OOC: What's the purpose of this thread anyway? To get more people involved in an already cluttered RP?]

OOC: MdE is interested solely in
a) Capturing Zanziki's king for our "Zoo of Deposed Dictators" and
b) Killing/capturing as many commie rebles for forced labor and entertainmen... er... to... uh... rid the world of a failed economic system?

Profits and funny little hats for all!

Is that a threat?

OOC: Not really, its just the logical conclusion of whats going to happen to those nations that try to fight ACTO....

-_- yes, because dropping a fleet off someone's coast is perfectly peaceful and never has any warlike intentions, especially in the wake of numerous IC statements against the government in question and a lot of shouting about human rights.

Quoted for truth.

[OOC: Okay, we can say Zanski is the agressor if that makes you happy. Zanski =/= ACTO; which is a pretty big deal, IMO.] Actually I can claim since

ACTO is supporting Zanski.

Zanski beliefs= ACTO beliefs. Which it what I was stating from the beginning.


But yeah, As OPer, I support this being the OOC thread.

I can be sure though, that even if this situation is resolved, it is a birth of a massive Cold War.

OOC: Not really, its just the logical conclusion of whats going to happen to those nations that try to fight ACTO....

Meh, just because you are bigger and meaner doesnt mean you guys'll win.

We never surrender, never.

Besides, you are just using ACTO as a shield, just like you did with the DC.

OOC:
ICly, we consider that you were in his territorial borders and he had the right to. We don't consider killing of 100 civilians as a crime thus your intentions to us are void. Also we are just labeling you as communist just to justify ourselves.

I was NEVER inside his territorial boarders. You would know that if you read my posts. DUH. I was 25 KILOMETERS OUTSIDE HIS TERRITORAL WATERS. Thus stated in Post 74 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12392886&postcount=74).

[OOC: He sent a massive fleet to Zanski first and fired into that nation. Regardless of an "official" declaration of war, it still amounts as such. That's like you saying a massive nuclear strike on your nation wouldn't be seen as agressive unless it was followed by an official declaration of war.]

If you read Post number 122 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12395817&postcount=122). You would notice that he fired onto me first. I never entered his territorial waters, plain and simple.

[Hint: We call that "flaming" where I come from. And further hint: You completely missed Velkya's point.]

How is it flaming? Not everyone knows what "=/=" means. I was covering all my bases.

[OOC: Implying a person doesn't understand something is flaming.]

See above the quote. Covering bases....end of it.

[OOC: Implying a person doesn't understand something is flaming.]

OOC: What? How on earth is that flaming? I have seen people on the internet (can't remember if it was this site or another) who have mistaken =/= as meaning equals. That doesn't make them stupid or anything. Implying that they, or somebody else reading the post might not understand =/= isn't in any way Expressing anger at someone in uncouth ways with OOC (out-of-character) comments (i.e. swearing, being obnoxious, threatening etc).

Actually I can claim since

What?

ACTO is supporting Zanski.

A few nations out of a much larger group.

Zanski beliefs= ACTO beliefs. Which it what I was stating from the beginning.

Not really. I've stated numerous times ICly that I am heavily against the human rights abuses (the students.) I even placed 500 special forces personnel into the nation in order to attempt to quietly overthrow the Zanski government. It was only after much larger nations started moving fleets and preparing for a massive World War that I started to allign myself in Zanski's corner.

The major reason any of the ACTO nations is involved is the interferance of a socialist state in the internal affairs of a capitalist state.

Meh, just because you are bigger and meaner doesnt mean you guys'll win.


Sigged!

Sigged!

Why, thank you.

Meh, just because you are bigger and meaner doesnt mean you guys'll win.

We never surrender, never.

Besides, you are just using ACTO as a shield, just like you did with the DC.

a) ACTO is a binding treaty now?

b) Clandonia was the first ACTO member to get involved?

OOC: TWSP: unlike the hataria quote, no offense is ment in this case; i just find it funny

a) ACTO is a binding treaty now?

b) Clandonia was the first ACTO member to get involved?

I'll answer b)

You see, Clandonia is one of ACTO's weak-spots. Long ago, when he wasnt occupied and still a member of the DC, he used Transilvanya's influence and power as a shield, so he could act without fearing the consequences, since anyone retaliating would get pwned by Trans.
Then he joined the CA, and Trans got angry.
So he left.
And he got kicked out of the DC.
And then everyone invaded (captured Clandonia but didnt allow any Socialist or Communist country, they had been some of the most threatened, specially Nova Europans, to participate), but left some type of Capital goverment which suited their needs, then they annexed Clandonia.
So he moved his nation, and now he is back on his feet, ready to get all "Imperial" on people's asses.

OOC: TWSP: unlike the hataria quote, no offense is ment in this case; i just find it funny

No problem, I didnt take it as an offense.

b) Clandonia was the first ACTO member to get involved?

[OOC: I'm pretty sure that would be me.]

OOC: What? How on earth is that flaming? I have seen people on the internet (can't remember if it was this site or another) who have mistaken =/= as meaning equals. That doesn't make them stupid or anything. Implying that they, or somebody else reading the post might not understand =/= isn't in any way

[OOC: Because of the tone that most people read Shazbotdoms statement in, it sounded like he was calling Vetaka stupid. As you've pointed out, that may not be the case, but I'm pretty sure it was.]

[OOC: Because of the tone that most people read Shazbotdoms statement in, it sounded like he was calling Vetaka stupid. As you've pointed out, that may not be the case, but I'm pretty sure it was.]

OOC:
And who are you to judge my statment? Why don't you read Post 41 for my responces, seeing as you just skimmed over it.

[SIZE="1"]OOC:
I was NEVER inside his territorial boarders. You would know that if you read my posts. DUH. I was 25 KILOMETERS OUTSIDE HIS TERRITORAL WATERS. Thus stated in Post 74 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12392886&postcount=74).

But that fleet WAS there. You were making threats and open plans of "bombing his nation back to the stone age." That fleet was hostile in every way, regardless of where it was.

If you read Post number 122 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12395817&postcount=122). You would notice that he fired onto me first. I never entered his territorial waters, plain and simple.

See above. You were making threats, opening planning on bombing his nation back to the stone age, etc.

OOC:
And who are you to judge my statment? Why don't you read Post 41 for my responces, seeing as you just skimmed over it.

[OOC: I'm just telling you how most people read it. And that IS how most people read it, judging on the responses of other people. Oh, and FYI, the highlighted portion of your quote can be considered flaming as well.]

But that fleet WAS there. You were making threats and open plans of "bombing his nation back to the stone age." That fleet was hostile in every way, regardless of where it was.



See above. You were making threats, opening planning on bombing his nation back to the stone age, etc.

OOC:
They are threats, yes. But how are you to know thats what I was planning? You don't know. You were just making "assumptions". The only one who knows what I was planning on doing is Me and no one else. I didn't go "This is what i'm planning" did I?

[OOC: I'm just telling you how most people read it. And that IS how most people read it, judging on the responses of other people. Oh, and FYI, the highlighted portion of your quote can be considered flaming as well.]

OOC: Sure. You can consider anything you like flaming. But I sincerely doubt that any of the moderators on this site would consider it flaming.

[OOC: I'm just telling you how most people read it. And that IS how most people read it, judging on the responses of other people. Oh, and FYI, the highlighted portion of your quote can be considered flaming as well.]

OOC:
Then you don't really know what flaming is, my friend.

Bah...I've started a bitchfest...

Let me clarify a few questions you've all raised.

1. TLA, about your first response: he said 'unofficial' call to arms. CP doesn't have the authority to declare an official call to arms. He's just rustling up support. At no point will you see a post that accurately represents a declaration of war by ACTO unless Questers SERIOUSLY changes the system, more on this below.
2. There is IC and OOC proof that New Nicksylvania and other ACTO members are attacking Communists, yes...your point? His post says 'Coming directly from [his] membership in [ACTO]". Translation, he's doing this because he supports the values ACTO espouses. He's not saying "With the full support of all of ACTO..." Again, more later.
3. Let's not have the "ACTO is a bunch of angry old nations who hate losing!" "Oh? Well, Commies are a bunch of n00bs with no brains and no RPing skills beyond 'as the troops landed they swept all before them soon the capital was in their hands'!"
4. Related to 3, yeah, a lot of the 'old guard' have joined ACTO. That's because our 'generation' of nations isn't very well populated with communists. We've got liberal democrats, monarchs, and psychotic tyrannies like me and Doom, but few outright Commies, I believe...lately there've been an influx of newer nations that are more Fascist or Communist. It happens. It's actually kind of fun watching the changes occur.

Here's the point you guys have missed in between the conversations described in Point 3: 'Treaty Organization' is a misleading name for ACTO. There's no treaty. There's no organization either, really. Questers said it himself: it's an informal group of likeminded nations. CP is perfectly within his rights to say 'hey guys, lets beat up on some commies!' Nobody, except Questers, is within their rights to say, 'ACTO officially declares a crusade against the Red swine!' Ignore anybody who does that.

Does that help?

EDIT: By the way, this only refers to the first page, because I'm not going to trawl through the back-and-forth that it spawned.

3. Let's not have the "ACTO is a bunch of angry old nations who hate losing!" "Oh? Well, Commies are a bunch of n00bs with no brains and no RPing skills beyond 'as the troops landed they swept all before them soon the capital was in their hands'!"
4. Related to 3, yeah, a lot of the 'old guard' have joined ACTO. That's because our 'generation' of nations isn't very well populated with communists. We've got liberal democrats, monarchs, and psychotic tyrannies like me and Doom, but few outright Commies, I believe...lately there've been an influx of newer nations that are more Fascist or Communist. It happens. It's actually kind of fun watching the changes occur.


Point three is kind of offensive, besides, some of the "Old Guard" shouldnt call anyone fascist, unless they want to be hypocrites, of course.
Again, I highly doubt any of you is "Liberal", and certainly most of you arent fully "democratic" either.

OOC:
They are threats, yes. But how are you to know thats what I was planning? You don't know. You were just making "assumptions". The only one who knows what I was planning on doing is Me and no one else. I didn't go "This is what i'm planning" did I?

[OOC: What you were "planning" is completely and totally irrelevant. Lets put it this way: You moved a massive fleet near a nation and were PUBLICALLY saying "We're going to bomb Zanski back to the stone age." It doesn't matter what you may have been planning behind closed doors. Everything you did appeared hostile.]

OOC:
Then you don't really know what flaming is, my friend.

[OOC: I don't want to argue specifics with you. Every person has slightly different meanings for words. In my book, flaming is the same as acting prickish for no real reason. I don't care what word you want to assign to what you're doing.]

[OOC: What you were "planning" is completely and totally irrelevant. Lets put it this way: You moved a massive fleet near a nation and were PUBLICALLY saying "We're going to bomb Zanski back to the stone age." It doesn't matter what you may have been planning behind closed doors. Everything you did appeared hostile.]

OOC:
So you just admit that you made an assumption. It's not for you to judge how I RP my nation. I'll RP how I want and my nation doens't just say it's plans out in the open. That would be foolhardy.

And I don't see how you think everything I say is a "flame". If you think it's a flame, then report me already. Don't say "oh, thats a flame" and not do anything about it.

Point three is kind of offensive, besides, some of the "Old Guard" shouldnt call anyone fascist, unless they want to be hypocrites, of course.
Again, I highly doubt any of you is "Liberal", and certainly most of you arent fully "democratic" either.

Not one of the people I was referring to are fascists. I was thinking of Skgorria in particular when I said that newer nations have political persuasions that resemble the 1940s. From my LIMITED observation he seems to be a bit fascist IC, but I could be wrong.

As for Liberal, take a look at Czardas sometime, or even Shenyang. I'm not just referring to the CAD. I don't want to sound like an ass, but I'd appreciate it if you'd get acquainted with these people before throwing out comments like that. Not to mention, it hardly matters. This was probably the least important thing I had to say.

By the way, point three was a caricature, I apologize for any offense.

OOC:
So you just admit that you made an assumption. It's not for you to judge how I RP my nation. I'll RP how I want and my nation doens't just say it's plans out in the open. That would be foolhardy.

And I don't see how you think everything I say is a "flame". If you think it's a flame, then report me already. Don't say "oh, thats a flame" and not do anything about it.

[OOC: No, I'm admitting to trying to have a bit of realism in my nations actions and likewise expecting that other people would try to do the same in their own. This quality seems to be lost on certain RP'ers, however; in that there is now a worrying fusion of OOC knowledge and the understanding of what in-character nations "know" based upon what they can realistically see occuring.

You moved a massive fleet and made in-character statements voicing your objective to attack Zanski. This is all in-character nations know. Characters within this game cannot interpret your OOC intentions. That would be an act of godmode. Understand?

And no, I'm not going to report your obviously prick-like behavior. That's not something I need to do to feel better. You're not bothering me. You are, however, losing respect as a player.]

Not one of the people I was referring to are fascists. I was thinking of Skgorria in particular, who from my LIMITED observation seems to be a bit fascist IC, but I could be wrong.

As for Liberal, take a look at Czardas sometime, or even Shenyang. I'm not just referring to the CAD. I don't want to sound like an ass, but I'd appreciate it if you'd get acquainted with these people before throwing out comments like that.

The side of the "Old Guard" I've been seeing since I joined NS isnt exactly... oh, whats the word... I dunno, tyrannical... human right violators?

I'll have to think about it, and watch my back, seeing as these nations are the ones actually "running" the NS world as we know it.

The side of the "Old Guard" I've been seeing since I joined NS isnt exactly... oh, whats the word... I dunno, tyrannical... human right violators?

I'll have to think about it, and watch my back, seeing as these nations are the ones actually "running" the NS world as we know it.

Meh, you have a good point. But that's because you have Doom and me and to a lesser degree The Parthians running here and there throwing our militaristic imperialist bulk around. It depends on where you look. If you're pointing out that 'democratic' powers in II do a lot of imperialist 'putting down the evil guys' actions, then you're right. Think Peloponnesian War-era Athens. Just keep in mind that Havenites are hardly a mob of despots and fanatics, while CAD contains mostly strongly militarized, possibly uber-religious, all-encompassing governments.

Finally, since New Nicksylvania is the agressor would anyone really care if I wipe out New Nicksylvania's fleet for declaring war on me.

[OOC: For those of you who are keeping count, this is the third different person you've declared "the agressor."]

Bah...I've started a bitchfest...

Let me clarify a few questions you've all raised.

[QUOTE=The Warmaster;12400124]
1. TLA, about your first response: he said 'unofficial' call to arms. CP doesn't have the authority to declare an official call to arms. He's just rustling up support. At no point will you see a post that accurately represents a declaration of war by ACTO unless Questers SERIOUSLY changes the system, more on this below.
A call to arms implies that there is some sort of organization. Unofficially or Officially if CP is issusing a call to arms, that mean he thinks of it as an alliance.

2. There is IC and OOC proof that New Nicksylvania and other ACTO members are attacking Communists, yes...your point? His post says 'Coming directly from [his] membership in [ACTO]". Translation, he's doing this because he supports the values ACTO espouses. He's not saying "With the full support of all of ACTO..." Again, more later. It sounds a lot like a "In the name of ACTO." But that's not important now.

3. Let's not have the "ACTO is a bunch of angry old nations who hate losing!" "Oh? Well, Commies are a bunch of n00bs with no brains and no RPing skills beyond 'as the troops landed they swept all before them soon the capital was in their hands'!" Not part of that.

4. Related to 3, yeah, a lot of the 'old guard' have joined ACTO. That's because our 'generation' of nations isn't very well populated with communists. We've got liberal democrats, monarchs, and psychotic tyrannies like me and Doom, but few outright Commies, I believe...lately there've been an influx of newer nations that are more Fascist or Communist. It happens. It's actually kind of fun watching the changes occur. Mainly because so many groups pay so much attention to them, since most of these nations are Attention whores, you're playing right into them.

Here's the point you guys have missed in between the conversations described in Point 3: 'Treaty Organization' is a misleading name for ACTO. There's no treaty. There's no organization either, really. Questers said it himself: it's an informal group of likeminded nations. CP is perfectly within his rights to say 'hey guys, lets beat up on some commies!' Nobody, except Questers, is within their rights to say, 'ACTO officially declares a crusade against the Red swine!' Ignore anybody who does that.
Does that help?
Yes, it means I'll Ignore CP whenever he makes any mention of ACTO.

Finally, since New Nicksylvania is the agressor would anyone really care if I wipe out New Nicksylvania's fleet for declaring war on me.

1. It's a figure of speech. No matter how he used it, the fact is that ACTO is not an alliance. I don't want to get into semantics.

2. Meh. If you want to interpret it like that, go ahead, that just means that NN should learn Point 1 as well.

3. Very nice:)

4. Well, it's hard for me to play right into their hands, as I'm one of them. As for attention whores, I don't know about that. Can you tell me where you're coming from on this? I haven't seen anyone I know endlessly plugging their threads, which is what I'd call attention whoring...it's not anyone's fault for having their threads read.

5. If he says that ACTO is officially supporting him, I guess you could. Up to you. And about NN's fleet, I don't care a bit, IC or OOC, unless it really hurts the capitalist war effort, in which case I care IC only.

Today we fearfully announce that the Anti Communist Treaty Organisation has begun it's global plan to cleanse the world of all non-Capitalists.

After a group of pro-Communist rebels seized a portion of the nation of Zanski, A nation that had been, until recently, stating that they had been planning the destruction of all communists, as multiple nations stepped in to demand that they back down from their aggressive stance, an internal rebellion overthrew the corrupt king and pledged in Democracy and freedom.

Multiple supporters of this free nation were prepared to join in and aid their takeover of the former corrupt regime, that is until ACTO stepped in, in the name of "protecting the "Lawful" government " they demanded that all support for the rebels end, or face destruction, New Nicksyllvania followed this up by declareing war against all pro-rebel nations, I will have to repeat that, as it bears repeating, they DECLARED WAR against, Wagdog, Shazbotdom, Chellis, Fallible, Krendakov, as well as The Lone Alliance.

This is a grave situation, with their intent clear, any nation that does not support pure capitalism is at risk, for if they suceed here, they will continue onward, they will continue until Absolute Capitalism is the only allowed government in the world. For freedom to pratice you economic beliefs, for the sanity in keeping a fascist system from overthrowing the world. We ask that you stand up and face these Imperial scum for what they really are. We ask you to fight, fight not for the safety of communism, or Socialism, but for the freedom of your nation to choose it's own economic freedoms. Fight for freedom, don't let them decide what government is right for you!

Thread:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519573

IC:
Offical Statement.

While we're not socialist or communist we offer our full support to the Lone alliance in this matter.

1. It's a figure of speech. No matter how he used it, the fact is that ACTO is not an alliance. I don't want to get into semantics. I think I have it now.

2. Meh. If you want to interpret it like that, go ahead, that just means that NN should learn Point 1 as well.

3. Very nice:)

4. Well, it's hard for me to play right into their hands, as I'm one of them. As for attention whores, I don't know about that. Can you tell me where you're coming from on this? I haven't seen anyone I know endlessly plugging their threads, which is what I'd call attention whoring...it's not anyone's fault for having their threads read. I'm sure you've noticed newbies now.
Used to Newbies would open a thread with "I'm killing *INSERT GROUP*.
Now they open it with "My Government is *Insert something people dislike*


5. If he says that ACTO is officially supporting him, I guess you could. Up to you. And about NN's fleet, I don't care a bit, IC or OOC, unless it really hurts the capitalist war effort, in which case I care IC only.
I doubt it, since I doubt there will be a war, and since if he loses those ships he will pay money to companies and other nations to build better ones. And he'll OOCly know not to jump the gun and assume that everyone is declaring war.

-------
IC:
Offical Statement.

While we're not socialist or communist we offer our full support to the Lone alliance in this matter.

We thank the nation of, Animarnia, however the problem has resolved itself.

I think I have it now.

We thank the nation of, Animarnia, however the problem has resolved itself.

Of course. but if you ever require our assistance you have friends here. our Submarines will be in the waters soon to conduct the balistic missile tests, Admiral Pentaguast will contact you soon (OOC: a poke to the other thread)

OOC: ACTO isn't a pact, yes I made an OOC post which TLA seems to have interpreted as an IC message to those who signed it. My view is that some here are getting hissy because they know they can't fight some of the larger powers coming in so they are restoring to OOC insults. Avisron was the first ACTO member to post, I decided to after, then Questers did then a few more allies of the Sovereign League came, we are all true liberal democracies.

I'm not even officially at war yet and yet TWSP just continues to post poor quality official government insults.

OOC:
You know. I'm preparing to pull out and it seems that NN is still threatening me. I already stated that I won't pull out until I recieve the results of my missile strike on his missile base. I wonder if NN sees that or is ignoring it?

[OOC: Fucks sake. This is screwed up. Anyone that's attacking Zanski is the aggressor against Zanski because thats what aggressor means (apart from Shazbotdom since he withdrew.)

If you're attacked, then the person attacking you is the aggressor because they are showing physical aggression towards you. Now whether you think the attack is just or not is irrelevent because you are the one showing physical aggression. Whether the aggression is just, as I just said, is anothe rmatter but thats not what TLA was saying, I think. What's so hard to understand about that?

Secondly, your claims that ACTO is a shield for us to insult leftists is quite frankly ridiculous. If we wanted to insult leftists we would it, it's quite easy, look:

"OOC: You fucking commie, shouldn't you be standing in your bread ration?" If I directed that you, it would be an insult, much like:

"OOC: You fucking capitalist, shouldn't you be drinking some oil right now?" would be an insult to me if you directed it at me (actually it wouldn't insult me, I would find it a major source of lulz, but nevermind).

Now, that's OOC, you have four options.

1. Metagame and invade me for something I said OOC.
2. Report me.
3. Ignore it. (Sensible)
4. Insult me back.

Metagaming is essentially cheating. 2 and 3 are solid options... 4 not so much.

If I said this IC in a diplomatic statement "OOC: You fucking commie, shouldn't you be standing in your bread ration?", then you have again four choices:

1. Invade me for somnething a government official or head of state said. Totally ridiculous.
2. Ignore me OOCly for something an IC character said.
3. Decide to have your government ignore.
4. Have your government respond.

Either way, if we're hiding behind ACTO it appears obvious you would either do one, or both (whne you start to lose), of two options:
1. Invade for something said OOC.
2. Ignore for something said OOC.

Or if you mean that nations hide behind ACTO and it means they can't be invaded, yes, that is the point of ACTO. Its to stop communism from spreading across the world. If you want to oppose that, make an alliance to stop capitalism from spreading.

Or if you mean that nations hide behind ACTO and it means they can't be invaded, yes, that is the point of ACTO. Its to stop communism from spreading across the world. If you want to oppose that, make an alliance to stop capitalism from spreading.

Thast not my point at all, I meant to say, that we get attacked, and when we try to retaliate, the attacker hides behind ACTO.

Today we fearfully announce that the Anti Communist Treaty Organisation has begun it's global plan to cleanse the world of all non-Capitalists.
ACTO is not an alliance or even a treaty. If anything, it is just a statement of belief. Thus far, ACTO has never officially endorsed any action taken by any country, ever. There is no mechanism in place for ACTO to ever do this in the future. Far from having concocted some sinister plot to take over the world, ACTO has never organised so much as a tea party, and has no legal ability to do so even if it wanted to.

After a group of pro-Communist rebels seized a portion of the nation of Zanski, A nation that had been, until recently, stating that they had been planning the destruction of all communists, as multiple nations stepped in to demand that they back down from their aggressive stance, an internal rebellion overthrew the corrupt king and pledged in Democracy and freedom.
The original Zanski government was a democracy with a legal socialist opposition party, according to his wiki (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zanski#Political_parties). In fact, Zanski views being a dictatorship as a crime (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zanski#Clause_of_justice), again according to the wiki. I don't see how that the communist attack on this government could therefore be claimed to have been done in the name of "democracy and freedom".

Multiple supporters of this free nation were prepared to join in and aid their takeover of the former corrupt regime, that is until ACTO stepped in, in the name of "protecting the "Lawful" government " they demanded that all support for the rebels end, or face destruction, New Nicksyllvania followed this up by declareing war against all pro-rebel nations, I will have to repeat that, as it bears repeating, they DECLARED WAR against, Wagdog, Shazbotdom, Chellis, Fallible, Krendakov, as well as The Lone Alliance.
Yes, a bunch of evil liberal democracies declared war on a group of nations which had just stated their intention to depose a democratically elected government in favour of an extremist communist faction that represented the wishes of only a tiny minority of the populace. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound so bad...

This is a grave situation, with their intent clear, any nation that does not support pure capitalism is at risk,
Translation: "Any nation that tries to conduct a military coup against a democratically elected capitalist government is at risk."

for if they suceed here, they will continue onward, they will continue until Absolute Capitalism is the only allowed government in the world.[/quote]
What is "absolute capitalism"? If Praetonia is indeed hell-bent on imposing it on everyone, oughtn't I to know?

For freedom to pratice you economic beliefs, for the sanity in keeping a fascist system from overthrowing the world.
Fascism is a collectivist economic system. It is the opposite of capitalism. Fascist and socialist economics are practically indistinguishable.

We ask that you stand up and face these Imperial scum for what they really are.
I can't think of many past imperialist actions taking the form of a defence of a democratically elected government against foreign invaders.

We ask you to fight, fight not for the safety of communism, or Socialism, but for the freedom of your nation to choose it's own economic freedoms.
Socialism opposes the very concept of economic freedom. I don't understand how this argument squares with the rest of your case.

Fight for freedom, don't let them decide what government is right for you!
A noble cause. I would say that sponsoring a military coup is perhaps not the best way to go about furthering it.


To summarise: Is it just me who doesn't understand TLA's post at all?

Fascism is a collectivist economic system. It is the opposite of capitalism. Fascist and socialist economics are practically indistinguishable.


That's not entirely true, besides, I wouldnt hesitate to call some of you "Fascists" (since you obviously are) ICily.

But thats just me.

To summarise: Is it just me who doesn't understand TLA's post at all?

I've been wondering about that too. It seems to be mostly propaganda, which is usually either untrue or exaggerated truth -- and that's fine. But it's propaganda that is very difficult to understand. (I'm considering giving up on this thread and holding my military exercises elsewhere.)

That's not entirely true, besides, I wouldnt hesitate to call some of you "Fascists" (since you obviously are) ICily.

But thats just me.
If you think Praetonia or Questers are fascists you don't have your head screwed on properly.

If you think Praetonia or Questers are fascists you don't have your head screwed on properly.

Do I sound like I care?

ACTO is not an alliance or even a treaty. If anything, it is just a statement of belief. Thus far, ACTO has never officially endorsed any action taken by any country, ever. There is no mechanism in place for ACTO to ever do this in the future. Far from having concocted some sinister plot to take over the world, ACTO has never organised so much as a tea party, and has no legal ability to do so even if it wanted to.

Good job, not only is your organisation misnamed, it is also pointless.

The original Zanski government was a democracy with a legal socialist opposition party, according to his wiki (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zanski#Political_parties). In fact, Zanski views being a dictatorship as a crime (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zanski#Clause_of_justice), again according to the wiki. I don't see how that the communist attack on this government could therefore be claimed to have been done in the name of "democracy and freedom".

The idea of a highly powerful King seems rather un-democratic to me, but then again, Praetonia has a king… though perhaps he can’t order the murder of innocent civilians…

Yes, a bunch of evil liberal democracies declared war on a group of nations which had just stated their intention to depose a democratically elected government in favour of an extremist communist faction that represented the wishes of only a tiny minority of the populace. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound so bad...

Well, most of these nations want to install a democratic government. Admittedly I would be happy with “an extremist communist faction”. Mainly due to the fact that I think that would be in the better interests of the people.

Translation: "Any nation that tries to conduct a military coup against a democratically elected capitalist government is at risk."

See previous points.

[QUOTE=Praetonia;12402377]What is "absolute capitalism"? If Praetonia is indeed hell-bent on imposing it on everyone, oughtn't I to know?

*coughiragiacough*

Fascism is a collectivist economic system. It is the opposite of capitalism. Fascist and socialist economics are practically indistinguishable.

“fascism: extreme right-wing totalitarian nationalist movement” – Oxford English Dictionary (Puplished 1997)
Doesn’t seem like a collectivist economic system to me. My own definition would be “a system by which the military controls society, perhaps by conscription and martial law”.

I can't think of many past imperialist actions taking the form of a defence of a democratically elected government against foreign invaders.

I suppose you are technically right, an imperialist action will not be one intending to defend another nation (well, WWI could be quoted as a counter-example, but it’s not really necessary). But is it not true that a nation that is an imperialist nation might go to war to defend its allies?

Socialism opposes the very concept of economic freedom. I don't understand how this argument squares with the rest of your case.

to choose it's own economic freedoms
Does this not make clear that there is no implication that socialism does have economic freedom? All that is being said is that the right to have any level of economic freedoms is a nations right. The people of a nation should be able to choose, not to have their options limited by reactionary legislation.

A noble cause. I would say that sponsoring a military coup is perhaps not the best way to go about furthering it.

Attempting to free a country from a corrupt megalomaniac dictator proclaiming to be a king might be, though.

To summarise: Is it just me who doesn't understand TLA's post at all?

Yup

Do I sound like I care?
This being the internet I couldn't possibly say, but I would have thought you would have some regard for the truth. Propaganda for political purposes is all well and good, but if you start to believe it yourself then you're in trouble.

This being the internet I couldn't possibly say, but I would have thought you would have some regard for the truth. Propaganda for political purposes is all well and good, but if you start to believe it yourself then you're in trouble.

Political propaganda is mainly (and no, this is not flaming, just stating an opinion) bullshit.

Truth is Socialism =/= Fascism, as Krendakov politely pointed out in his previous post.

Then again, some socialist nations are undemocratic, but hey, guess what?, so were some capitalist nations!

Good job, not only is your organisation misnamed, it is also pointless.
Either you accept that ACTO is not a treaty or a directing organisation, or you believe it is a fascist conspiracy to take over the world. Whether or not it is misnamed or pointless is a red herring - it may well be both, but the original contention was not either of these.

The idea of a highly powerful King seems rather un-democratic to me, but then again, Praetonia has a king… though perhaps he can’t order the murder of innocent civilians…
I don't see what you're trying to demonstrate. Unless Zanski's wiki is inaccurate, he has elections and so he is a democracy. So there. This being the case, one can assume that the people accept the position of the King (as in Praetonia, Questers, RL UK, Etc.) or they would have used the democratic process to try to remove him. The present governing party in Zanski appears to be monarchist.

Well, most of these nations want to install a democratic government. Admittedly I would be happy with “an extremist communist faction”. Mainly due to the fact that I think that would be in the better interests of the people.
How could their intention have been to install a democratic government when one is already in place? That is simply nonsensical. They went in, like you, to try to promote a military coup that doesn't have the support of the wider majority. You may think that imposing bolshevisk is "for the peoples' own good", but that isn't what the OP was arguing - he was arguing that you lot are a pro-democracy faction, when in fact this is untrue.

[QUOTE=Praetonia;12402377]Translation: "Any nation that tries to conduct a military coup against a democratically elected capitalist government is at risk."

See previous points.

*coughiragiacough*
Nice try, but Iragia wasn't a democracy. Sorry.

“fascism: extreme right-wing totalitarian nationalist movement” – Oxford English Dictionary (Puplished 1997)
Doesn’t seem like a collectivist economic system to me. My own definition would be “a system by which the military controls society, perhaps by conscription and martial law”.
Doesn't it? You don't understand what collectivism is, I think. Under a Fascist government, the economy is controlled by the state for the state's benefit. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism#Politics) lists fascism as a collectivist idealogy.

I suppose you are technically right, an imperialist action will not be one intending to defend another nation (well, WWI could be quoted as a counter-example, but it’s not really necessary). But is it not true that a nation that is an imperialist nation might go to war to defend its allies?
This is like asking "is it not true that green apples are edible?" in attempt to demonstrate that an edible apple we otherwise know nothing about is green. Yes, imperialist nations do go to war to defend their allies - but so do all nations. The fact that a nation will defend its allies is not evidence of imperialism or indeed anti-imperialism.

In any case, the contention was not that the nations involved are imperialists in general, but that this was an imperialist war. You seem to have admitted yourself that it wasn't.

Does this not make clear that there is no implication that socialism does have economic freedom? All that is being said is that the right to have any level of economic freedoms is a nations right. The people of a nation should be able to choose, not to have their options limited by reactionary legislation.
You mean, TLA is arguing that it is an inviolable right to be able to remove your freedoms, and that freedom-loving countries everywhere should fight for this right? If this was indeed what he was saying it hardly strengthens his case.

Attempting to free a country from a corrupt megalomaniac dictator proclaiming to be a king might be, though.
It has already been demonstrated that Zanski is not a dictatorship.

Political propaganda is mainly (and no, this is not flaming, just stating an opinion) bullshit.

Truth is Socialism =/= Fascism, as Krendakov politely pointed out in his previous post.

As both socialist and fascist economies are those economies that are largely or completely state-controlled, socialism and fascism are not actually that different. In fascism, however, the role of government may be taken over by massive corporations which also dominate the entire state's economy, and are taxed by the government in return for corporate welfare and protection from smaller "private" enterprises.

The difference obviously being that in capitalism the economy has almost no state interference, except (in some cases, especially in the Sovereign League) to tax monopolies in order to stimulate competition.

I think...?

Snip

Thing is, they accuse us of being "OH NOES 381L COMMIE DICTATORSHIP" when some of us are even more democratic than they are.
If they actually did their homework, they'd find out that most of us arent really communists, we just have different versions of socialism (mine, for instance, allowing a small regulated free market).

*SNIP


The original Zanski government was a democracy with a legal socialist opposition party, according to his wiki (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zanski#Political_parties). In fact, Zanski views being a dictatorship as a crime (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zanski#Clause_of_justice), again according to the wiki. I don't see how that the communist attack on this government could therefore be claimed to have been done in the name of "democracy and freedom".


Yes, a bunch of evil liberal democracies declared war on a group of nations which had just stated their intention to depose a democratically elected government in favour of an extremist communist faction that represented the wishes of only a tiny minority of the populace. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound so bad...


*SNIP*
*SNIP*
What is "absolute capitalism"? If Praetonia is indeed hell-bent on imposing it on everyone, oughtn't I to know?


Fascism is a collectivist economic system. It is the opposite of capitalism. Fascist and socialist economics are practically indistinguishable.


I can't think of many past imperialist actions taking the form of a defence of a democratically elected government against foreign invaders.


Socialism opposes the very concept of economic freedom. I don't understand how this argument squares with the rest of your case.


A noble cause. I would say that sponsoring a military coup is perhaps not the best way to go about furthering it.


To summarise: Is it just me who doesn't understand TLA's post at all?
Yes. King Kang Arma assumed power after an internet poll here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=513620); perhaps small-d "democratic," but equally suspect since only 70 million of Zanski's 1-odd billion citizens got to vote. Then, King Arma proceeded to declare war on all communists he could get his hands on here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/shwopost.php?p=12385070&postcount=1) without any semblance of due process, used lethal force wantonly against pro-democracy protesters here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12391795&postcount=46), and ordered his own father ex-President Modi Arma jailed for eternity here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12392083&postcount=51) just for criticizing his policies. And furthermore, took the rank of General and in so doing dismissed his own parliament (rather like 16th Century European Monarchs actually, where the King was the one General and the princes/nobles Lieutenant Generals) here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12395975&postcount=128). Yeah; the actions of a true, unselfish democrat. Right....:rolleyes:
We are NOT going in here just to support one communist faction, since the Red Authority so far dismisses talk of Zanski going communist here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12395816&postcount=121). ICly my government would actually prefer a mixed regime of various socialist/communist and progressive-capitalist parties, as is my practice if you look at my factbook. We ARE going in to assist a people against their own murderous regime, bent on provoking a world war over its own internal issues and gleefully watching as we all destroy each other. New Nicksyllvania and other Zanskian allies are aiding a reactionary monarchist against a popular revolt; hence, imperialism almost by-the-book.
Absolute Capitalism is what Vault 10 and some other anarcho-capitalist nations use ICly; the Market is the State and government services are all provided by businesses or groups of these, on the principle of "you get what you pay for" directly. A nice idea, but like Command Socialism equally vulnerable to corruption even if for diametrically opposed reasons (the corruptions of public versus private office).
Fascism may resemble Socialism yes, especially the various forms of Market Socialism, but is based upon a belief in either national or racial supremacy and hence is the opposite of most socialist thought; which stresses internationalism and the unity of all peoples everywhere. Zanski's actions, effectively declaring swathes of his own people outlaws "upon their souls" if their families acting in a communist fashion (which any sane family has to unless it's to resemble a brothel...:confused:) "attempt to sperad their methods," suspiciously resemble standard fascist dehumanizing rhetoric. Your mileage may vary, but I think calling King Arma a fascist is reasonable enough based upon his own words and deeds, which betray and condemn him themselves.
Command Socialism amounts to state-slavery, yes. But Market Socialism actually allows a freer market in narrowly economic terms (see RL China) than many welfare-capitalist states (see RL US, which my economy actually resembles aside from State companies getting preferential tax benefits so long as they're profitable). In short, your stereotype of what Socialism must oppose fails. If ICly you know of a better way to free Zanski that doesn't involve leaving a tyrant on the throne, by all means let us opposing him know. Thank you.

I don't think you understand here. We support democratic capitalist nations. We don't support totalitarian capitalist nations (fascism opposes laissez faire according to wiki), and we don't support democratic socialist nations, and we certainly don't support totalitarian socialist nations.

You might think that Communism is better for them. Personally, I don't, I find Communism vile, disgusting, the most repressive and ugly political systems of them all. That's why I'm an anti communist IC and OOC (actually IC its because of the way I've modeled my nation.) its just a pity that whenever communists and capitalists fight in NS it always turns into a flamewar.

(I typed this before wagdogs post and posted it afterwards, for the record I agree with you wagdog.)

...I find Communism vile, disgusting, the most repressive and ugly political systems of them all. That's why I'm an anti communist IC and OOC (actually IC its because of the way I've modeled my nation.) its just a pity that whenever communists and capitalists fight in NS it always turns into a flamewar.

Uhh… The irony is delicious.

First you state that you despise communism and hate it – OOC – then complain that communist vs. capitalist wars on NS become flamewars?

Consider this situation:
A nation starts a thread in NS general along the lines of “I find homosexuality vile and disgusting.”
The mods would close it and ban him. Why? Flamebaiting.
He thinks homosexuality is vile and disgusting.
Homosexuality is an integral part of homosexuals.
He, therefore, finds homosexuals vile and disgusting – a horrible insult against them.

This is what your statement boils down to:
You think communism is vile and disgusting.
Communism is an integral part of communists.
You, therefore, find communists vile and disgusting – a horrible insult against us.

Please, there was no need to proclaim communism as vile and disgusting, retract your statement.

So anyway, since this now the OOC thread, any chance of organising this so that there can be a good fight and fun had by all? You know you want to…

So we can't voice our opinions on communism! Wow this is deja vu with the Soviet Union! A true show of democracy there if people are not allowed to criticise a government thus reinforcing what all my allies have said above.

If you've ever spoken to someone who has lived in a communist country then your attitude might change as they aren't all nice smiley happy people. And China doesn't operate market socialism, it just has certain free trade areas like Shanghai, if your thinking of the Third Way, well that was coined up by fascists in 1930's Italy.

So we can't voice our opinions on communism! Wow this is deja vu with the Soviet Union! A true show of democracy there if people are not allowed to criticise a government thus reinforcing what all my allies have said above.

If you've ever spoken to someone who has lived in a communist country then your attitude might change as they aren't all nice smiley happy people. And China doesn't operate market socialism, it just has certain free trade areas like Shanghai, if your thinking of the Third Way, well that was coined up by fascists in 1930's Italy.

China is neither Communist nor Socialists, they just use it as an excuse.

And now, Clandonia, if you dont have anything else to add, we'd really appreciate it if you left this thread.

Just for the record, we are not commies, we are socialists (and there's a difference, just in case you close-minded capitalist wise-guys didnt know it).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not involved in this IC, and it's nice to have an argument about this stuff. But everything goes downhill when we get into defining political systems, like arguing over whether fascism is REALLY collectivist, or whether communism is inherently oppressive. Argue about the fun things, like imperialism, that's always nice.


By the way, Prae, remember that 'How to Fix II' thread? You should make a second version about OOC threads and what to avoid...and top of list should be these:

-definitions of political systems
-applications of politics to RL countries
-whether or not certain political systems are flawed

*directs Krendakov thither for definitions of flaming/flamebaiting: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023 *



By your logic, no one can disagree with anything without committing a 'horrible insult' against someone. I disagree.

Communism is an ideology, one I view as extremely flawed as it ignores multiple facets of human nature that I perceive to be more important than its tenets, but an ideology nonetheless. Last I checked, however, homosexuality wasn't an ideology. But then again, I'm disagreeing with you and tossing about horrible insults, right?

...I find Communism vile, disgusting, the most repressive and ugly political systems of them all. That's why I'm an anti communist IC and OOC (actually IC its because of the way I've modeled my nation.) its just a pity that whenever communists and capitalists fight in NS it always turns into a flamewar.
Uhh… The irony is delicious.

First you state that you despise communism and hate it – OOC – then complain that communist vs. capitalist wars on NS become flamewars?

Consider this situation:
A nation starts a thread in NS general along the lines of “I find homosexuality vile and disgusting.”
The mods would close it and ban him. Why? Flamebaiting.
He thinks homosexuality is vile and disgusting.
Homosexuality is an integral part of homosexuals.
He, therefore, finds homosexuals vile and disgusting – a horrible insult against them.

This is what your statement boils down to:
You think communism is vile and disgusting.
Communism is an integral part of communists.
You, therefore, find communists vile and disgusting – a horrible insult against us.

Please, there was no need to proclaim communism as vile and disgusting, retract your statement.

So anyway, since this now the OOC thread, any chance of organising this so that there can be a good fight and fun had by all? You know you want to…

OOC:
Personally in RL I am a liberal. More of a Socalist than anything. I wish equal rights for all and all that stuff.

BUT, what gets my grits going is when someone like you tells someone to stop believing what they believe. If Questers wants to believe that communism is "evil, vile and disgusting", then thats his choice and it's not your place to tell him to shut up about it.

So personally I think that you should be the one retracting your statment as you trying to order him around could be considered baiting. So just please, one person to another, just stop trying to push your bull onto others?

ACTO is not an alliance or even a treaty. If anything, it is just a statement of belief. Thus far, ACTO has never officially endorsed any action taken by any country, ever. There is no mechanism in place for ACTO to ever do this in the future. Far from having concocted some sinister plot to take over the world, ACTO has never organised so much as a tea party, and has no legal ability to do so even if it wanted to. Considering I've had a bad experiences with like minded groups, forgive me for not assuming that their intentions are peaceful.


The original Zanski government was a democracy with a legal socialist opposition party, according to his wiki (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zanski#Political_parties). In fact, Zanski views being a dictatorship as a crime (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zanski#Clause_of_justice), again according to the wiki. I don't see how that the communist attack on this government could therefore be claimed to have been done in the name of "democracy and freedom". Yet he has an all powerful king. Hmmm...


Yes, a bunch of evil liberal democracies declared war on a group of nations which had just stated their intention to depose a democratically elected government in favour of an extremist communist faction that represented the wishes of only a tiny minority of the populace. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound so bad... No a bunch of nations threatened by a Monarchy are in favor of a group overthrowing the king, if it means that they would be safe from said king.



Translation: "Any nation that tries to conduct a military coup against a democratically elected capitalist government is at risk."'
Monarchy.


What is "absolute capitalism"? If Praetonia is indeed hell-bent on imposing it on everyone, oughtn't I to know?
Absolute Capitalism (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Absolute_Capitalism)


Fascism is a collectivist economic system. It is the opposite of capitalism. Fascist and socialist economics are practically indistinguishable.
See above.


I can't think of many past imperialist actions taking the form of a defence of a democratically elected government against foreign invaders. In the past I've seen a nation moved in to "Protect" a nation, and then decide to 'stay'.


Socialism opposes the very concept of economic freedom. I don't understand how this argument squares with the rest of your case. If the people CHOOSE to oppose economic freedom, then it is their right too. Besides civil freedoms are more important in my opinion.


To summarise: Is it just me who doesn't understand TLA's post at all?
Yes.

*directs Krendakov thither for definitions of flaming/flamebaiting: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023 *



By your logic, no one can disagree with anything without committing a 'horrible insult' against someone. I disagree.

Communism is an ideology, one I view as extremely flawed as it ignores multiple facets of human nature that I perceive to be more important than its tenets, but an ideology nonetheless. Last I checked, however, homosexuality wasn't an ideology. But then again, I'm disagreeing with you and tossing about horrible insults, right?

Uhh… No.
Disagreeing is fine, insulting is not.
If matt had left it at “You might think that Communism is better for them. Personally, I don't” I wouldn’t have had a problem.

In the past I've seen a nation moved in to "Protect" a nation, and then decide to 'stay'.


And more than half the times, this nation "moving in" was Capitalist, heck, I yet have to see some of my "commie" allies invade someone and stay "for their own good".

I don't think you understand here. We support democratic capitalist nations. We don't support totalitarian capitalist nations (fascism opposes laissez faire according to wiki), and we don't support democratic socialist nations, and we certainly don't support totalitarian socialist nations.

You might think that Communism is better for them. Personally, I don't, I find Communism vile, disgusting, the most repressive and ugly political systems of them all. That's why I'm an anti communist IC and OOC (actually IC its because of the way I've modeled my nation.) its just a pity that whenever communists and capitalists fight in NS it always turns into a flamewar.

(I typed this before wagdogs post and posted it afterwards, for the record I agree with you wagdog.)
Thanks.;) No offense taken even though I'm about as opposite you ICly or OOCly as can get, since my main nation's setup reflects my own beliefs fairly closely (give the pragmatic communists a legal lock on the executive branch whatever elections do for the rest of government, then let the Stalinists and Maoists make fools of themselves in their own little parties in the legislature, and then have Labour/Social-democratic and Green/pseudo-conservative parties around to at least keep your opponents from taking to the streets about every decision you make). This fight is a matter of interests and alliances only; and I was just pointing out that (as we both agree) King Arma's heading in the authoritarian capitalist direction. Do note my usage, since I generally find "Totalitarianism" theory to be hopelessly self-contradictory, especially in Arendt's formulation of it since she goes on so many existentialist tangents it's unbelievable (and poor writing besides). You might be interested either way in what I've got in mind for King Arma, but ICly only if you can break my codes first...:p

Uhh… No.
Disagreeing is fine, insulting is not.
If matt had left it at “You might think that Communism is better for them. Personally, I don't” I wouldn’t have had a problem.

OOC:
No no no. If he was insulting, he would have called you 'vile and disgusting' and not the ideal of Communism.

And if someone found the idea of homosexuality vile and disgusting, is not that an insult to homosexuals?

And if someone found the idea of homosexuality vile and disgusting, is not that an insult to homosexuals?
Yes, it can be interpreted as such, although it is perfectly within the persons rights to have such ideals.

And if someone found the idea of homosexuality vile and disgusting, is not that an insult to homosexuals?

OOC:
It'd be their personal oppinion on their lifestyle. now if they went and said that all homosexuals were vile and disgusting, that would be derogatory.

And if someone found the idea of homosexuality vile and disgusting, is not that an insult to homosexuals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

And if someone found the idea of homosexuality vile and disgusting, is not that an insult to homosexuals?
-_- Homosexuality =/= political ideology. PLEASE understand this.

Yes, it can be interpreted as such, although it is perfectly within the persons rights to have such ideals.

I do not deny that matt can have such a belief. I think that such a statement is insulting and, if not flaming, flamebaiting.

OOC:
It'd be their personal oppinion on their lifestyle. now if they went and said that all homosexuals were vile and disgusting, that would be derogatory.

If a person states they believes something to be vile and disgusting, will they not believe those who participate in such an activity to be vile and evil?

“It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions… For respect of the rights or reputations of others”
Nice try with the freedom of speech argument Clandonia.

No Endorse, please understand that you cannot say that political correctness applies to sexuality but not politics.

If a person states they believes something to be vile and disgusting, will they not believe those who participate in such an activity to be vile and evil?

Only if they verbally state that they believe that homosexuals are vile and disgusting.

“It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions… For respect of the rights or reputations of others”
Nice try with the freedom of speech argument Clandonia.

Freedom of speech is held sacred in the US. A person can go around and state "I hate homosexuals" and not get arrested. it's not flaming or baiting unless it is specificlaly directed at someone. Such as someone saying "I hate you because your a homosexual".

Freedom of speech is held sacred in the US.

Which is why, as a classic liberal, I love the US so much. Thank you Shazbot, you've basically said what I was going to say while I was preparing for my college interview. I understand NS has no freedom of speech, and while I think it should, I stated that Communism was vile and disgusting, not the perpetrators of Communism. You can argue that homosexuality is vile and disgusting, but that homosexuals aren't, because its genetic and ergo "not their fault", or something.

(Note I don't actually hate homosexuals.)

Now, I'm an extremely thick skinned and stoic person - Im also arrogant and expect people to have these qualities - and also as an ardent supporter of total freedom of speech I find it irritating when people demand something is censored because they find it insulting.

I am not going to take down what I said, and I would not expect or ask you to either if you echoed similar views (thats irrelevant though), so all I'll do is repeat what I said earlier: I claimed Communism is vile and disgusting, not that all Communists are. I respect some Communists for the qualities they have - if I make a good friend whom I like alot I won't simply ignore them because they're a Communist like I would if they were a paedophile. I would try to change their mind but I wouldn't disown them as a friend because I see good qualities in almost everyone.

Sorry if you were offended, but a few harsh words never killed anyone and (YES IM A HYPOCRIT) tolerance of other people's views is usually a good thing. This is why, although I'm fiercely patriotic of my heritage, I would love to be an American, because you guys have such a kickass constitution.

I both accept Questers’ clarification as legitimate and apologise for misinterpreting his statements. That argument makes sense, I cannot argue. Fair point.

Just to do some clarification for matt: no, I am not crying in a corner with my hair over one eye while listening to my chemical romance. I just felt that, prior to your clarification, it was an insult – something that I feel I should not be subject to. Thank you for clarifying your position.

Nothing in of itself is inheritly evil; people who use and or impliment things are evil. the gun isn't evil in of itself; neither is the atom bomb; using those same tools to kill Civis? thats evil. the tools themselves however are neutral.

Do I think Stalin was an evil man? yes, so was Moa of china; Comunisum isn't evil in of itself; but that particular implimentation of it was. is Comunism Flawed? my personal opinion is yes because it dosn't take into account human nature; its human nature to Greed; everyone wants to be a little more equal that everyone else. pure captitalism is just as flawed, because the rich then use the poor as virtual slaves. the balance is the key; while I think most forms of goverment are inherently flawed, I don't think they'll ever be anything better. same as I don't think we'll ever stop war because humanity likes to fight and we don't care who it is.

OOCly and ICly I don't have a problem with captalists or comunists only dicators

Which is why, as a classic liberal, I love the US so much. Thank you Shazbot, you've basically said what I was going to say while I was preparing for my college interview. I understand NS has no freedom of speech, and while I think it should, I stated that Communism was vile and disgusting, not the perpetrators of Communism. You can argue that homosexuality is vile and disgusting, but that homosexuals aren't, because its genetic and ergo "not their fault", or something.

(Note I don't actually hate homosexuals.)

Now, I'm an extremely thick skinned and stoic person - Im also arrogant and expect people to have these qualities - and also as an ardent supporter of total freedom of speech I find it irritating when people demand something is censored because they find it insulting.

I am not going to take down what I said, and I would not expect or ask you to either if you echoed similar views (thats irrelevant though), so all I'll do is repeat what I said earlier: I claimed Communism is vile and disgusting, not that all Communists are. I respect some Communists for the qualities they have - if I make a good friend whom I like alot I won't simply ignore them because they're a Communist like I would if they were a paedophile. I would try to change their mind but I wouldn't disown them as a friend because I see good qualities in almost everyone.

Sorry if you were offended, but a few harsh words never killed anyone and (YES IM A HYPOCRIT) tolerance of other people's views is usually a good thing. This is why, although I'm fiercely patriotic of my heritage, I would love to be an American, because you guys have such a kickass constitution.

Questers, I love that response; it states what I would have said if I were to really get involved here better than I could have. Thank you.

Nothing in of itself is inheritly evil; people who use and or impliment things are evil. the gun isn't evil in of itself; neither is the atom bomb; using those same tools to kill Civis? thats evil. the tools themselves however are neutral.

Do I think Stalin was an evil man? yes, so was Moa of china; Comunisum isn't evil in of itself; but that particular implimentation of it was. is Comunism Flawed? my personal opinion is yes because it dosn't take into account human nature; its human nature to Greed; everyone wants to be a little more equal that everyone else. pure captitalism is just as flawed, because the rich then use the poor as virtual slaves. the balance is the key; while I think most forms of goverment are inherently flawed, I don't think they'll ever be anything better. same as I don't think we'll ever stop war because humanity likes to fight and we don't care who it is.

OOCly and ICly I don't have a problem with captalists or comunists only dicators

That's my thoughts as well. Human nature is inevitable and makes such thing as a Communist or Capitalist Utopia impossible. It's true that balance is the key.

I'm pretty sure that most people believe that balance is the key. However, most people don't agree on just what balance is.

I'm pretty sure that most people believe that balance is the key. However, most people don't agree on just what balance is.

Hence why nations have different positions on the economic policy continuum.

I'm pretty sure that most people believe that balance is the key. However, most people don't agree on just what balance is.

Well looking at it from an objective standpoint;

Comunist Dictator has the power to get things done fast but often becomes corupted by the taste of absoulte power and things end up bad; Ala Iraq, Soviet Russia, France in the Revolutionary period, Cuba, WWII Germany...the list goes on.

Captalist Democracys usually end up a Moras of buerocrasy and nothing gets done; the rich get richer; the poor get poorer.

Personally; I like the Finish and Sweadish way of doing things; with the Japanese military stance of pure self defence. personally I'd like to see a Technocrasy or something new and inventive in the world as a government to see how they do.

Personally; I like the Finish and Sweadish way of doing things; with the Japanese military stance of pure self defence. personally I'd like to see a Technocrasy or something new and inventive in the world as a government to see how they do.

A Technocracy a la Asimov's Multivac?

A Technocracy a la Asimov's Multivac?

Elaberate a bit; I'm not that familier with Asimov other than his 3 laws of robotics..?

Considering I've had a bad experiences with like minded groups, forgive me for not assuming that their intentions are peaceful.
You don't understand. APOC has no specific intentions, only a vague opposition to socalism/communism which is not backed by mandated policies that the memberstates have to enact. You mistake a matter of impartial fact for a matter of subjective opinion. It is not. The belief that APOC "intends" anything is simply wrong.

Yet he has an all powerful king. Hmmm...

No a bunch of nations threatened by a Monarchy are in favor of a group overthrowing the king, if it means that they would be safe from said king.
Praetonia has a King, too. Does that mean that it would be justifiable to storm Praetonia's Parliament, shoot all the MPs, abolish the existing Statute passed by these elected representatives and then install an extremist communist terrorist group that has the support of only a tiny fraction of the populace as the sole and sovereign government in the name of democracy? Surely you must realise that this would be an insane thing to claim? I don't dispute that the Zanskian government murdered a small number citizens and Praetonia agrees IC that this was wrong, but how could this damage possibly outweigh the damage caused by invading the country and then installing an insane political sect supported by almost no one as a new government.

Monarchy.
I have linked you to two sections of Zanski's wikipedia article which show clearly that it is a country that is strongly opposed to totalitarianism and dictatorship. It stands to reason therefore that Zanski is a constitutional monarchy like the UK in real life. Now if you have some conflicting evidence then please present it, but just restating your point as a baseless assertion whilst ignoring all the evidence standing against it - that just doesn't work.

Absolute Capitalism (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Absolute_Capitalism)

See above.
That appears to be a philosophy that was invented by a NS player and is practised in only a handful of countries, none of who are involved in this RP. It is also nonsensical, claiming to be laissez-faire whilst singing the praises of an omnipotent state which runs the economy as a quasi-nationalised industry by operating some sort of bizarre subcontracting system to provide government services on debt which it never intends to pay off, and justifies these anti-capitalist policies by appealing to marxist rhetoric. This seems to be a warped version of fascism, not a form of free market liberalism. Your attack on ACTO on the basis that it believes in this is simply a strawman.

In the past I've seen a nation moved in to "Protect" a nation, and then decide to 'stay'.
And of course the group that is trying to land vast numbers of troops to prop up a military coup (ie. you) is obviously less likely to do this than a group that isn't intending to land any troops or do any fighting on-land at all (ie. the capitalists). Surely you have just shot yourself in the foot?

If the people CHOOSE to oppose economic freedom, then it is their right too. Besides civil freedoms are more important in my opinion.
If you don't want to exercise your economic freedoms then you don't have to. Under free market liberalism no one is forcing you to keep the money you earn, or not to form a commune with other consenting individuals. They are just preventing you from taking other peoples' money away and forcing other people to form communes against their will. There is no such thing as an "imposition of liberty" - only an imposition of coercion. I for one do not agree with you that people have a right to remove others' liberties.

Elaberate a bit; I'm not that familier with Asimov other than his 3 laws of robotics..?

Well, in several of Asimov's short stories, there's an all-knowing computer called Multivac.
Now, this machine has helped solve most of humanities issues, by planning entire economies, births, etc.
In some of these stories, it ultimately ends to a world-goverment, in others, they use Multivac for elections by choosing a random citizen, asking him some questions, sending the answers to Multivac for it to compare them with the politicians, and then say the results (Democracy of one?).
Then come robots, and space, and all-seeing all-powerful beings, but that's another topic.
Basically, Multivac is a giant computer.

Well, in several of Asimov's short stories, there's an all-knowing computer called Multivac.
Now, this machine has helped solve most of humanities issues, by planning entire economies, births, etc.
In some of these stories, it ultimately ends to a world-goverment, in others, they use Multivac for elections by choosing a random citizen, asking him some questions, sending the answers to Multivac for it to compare them with the politicians, and then say the results (Democracy of one?).
Then come robots, and space, and all-seeing all-powerful beings, but that's another topic.
Basically, Multivac is a giant computer.

Hmmm I don't think an all powerful AI would work; I meant more something like a psudo mesh of Comunism and Captalism but with science; for example; in this nation the goal would be to push the boundries of science forward; citizens would get more rewards for the more the breakthroughs they contribute; so the harder they work the more they get like a captalist economy but with a large welfare state so everyone gets enough to live. income could be generated by a large science export industry

I know it probably wouldn't work in the real world;

That's not entirely true, besides, I wouldnt hesitate to call some of you "Fascists" (since you obviously are) ICily.

But thats just me.
OOC: As long as you make it clear that it's a IC accusation by your characters, I don't care what you call 'em. If you imply that you OOCly are calling their nations fascists, you're wrong as hell.

If you start calling the players fascists, it's flaming...