NationStates Jolt Archive

This has got me thinking. MT is defined as technology feasible within the next 10 years at the most, while PMT is largely technology feasible after that and Future Tech. However, how can we truly constitute what is feasible in this time period and what's not? Here's what I mean.

Currently most country budgets are at least six to seven times that of the leading technological firm, the United States, and a corporate juggernaut such as Microsoft would be nothing more than a backwater branch compared to the immense corporations here. So, how are we able to assume that certain technologies won't be invented by this time period if countries in real life had the budgets we had today? For example, for military or defense budgets as we do in Nationstates, wouldn't it be logical to assume that a country with that kind of military budget have a (forgive the pun-like metaphor) tank of a fighting force?

Not to mention, given the countries with billions of population, that would exponentially give us an advantage in this over real life countries in terms of production and technological advancement. I know some countries don't have education budgets, but that doesn't mean they can't import scientists or engineers from countries that have education budgets larger than entire countries trade amounts in real life. What I'm trying to say is; how can we assume to decide what is possible and what is not given the budgets of real life nations when they are simply not comparable nor proportional to the nations in NS? Obviously nations in NS would advanced much faster due to its larger budget and increased interest in the subjects.

What are you thoughts?

Not a thought but you've given me an idea Jenrak, what if the nations of Nationstates were to somehow accidently find their way onto the real life Earth, like something out of a John Birmingham book.

As for thoughts, I think we're fine ignoring this fact :P as unfortuante as it seems but if we took into account something like this then it would make the game waaay more complicated than it already is, I mean I've found that in order to be a good player you have to have like at least 13 years of full Military knowledge experience or ye just get ripped on, IGNORED or ignored.

I think when it comes to FT there is really to control when it comes to spending and research. If you think about it you can be a massive education spender but not be vary advanced. Also you can have a massive military but no real power. When you think about it you dont hear technological advancement used to much in FT because future tech runs out at a point and people start getting creative. When that happens trying to explain physics behind these techs is hard if not impossible. Unlike in say MT when if you bring up say a rail gun every one can explain that.

Not a thought but you've given me an idea Jenrak, what if the nations of Nationstates were to somehow accidently find their way onto the real life Earth, like something out of a John Birmingham book.

As for thoughts, I think we're fine ignoring this fact :P as unfortuante as it seems but if we took into account something like this then it would make the game waaay more complicated than it already is, I mean I've found that in order to be a good player you have to have like at least 13 years of full Military knowledge experience or ye just get ripped on, IGNORED or ignored.

How would the nations appear out of nowhere...?

its NS not every nation has a explination on where they came from or how a island came out of the ocean over night thats big enough for that nation.

How would the nations appear out of nowhere...?

I dunno, the crazy Super-Science our nations mess around with would cause something on the scale...

Bah, meh, okay.

If we're thinking of the same John Birmingham, it would only be a few members of the select nation that ended up transported. Toopoxia, this the author who wrote Weapons of Choice, right?

Yeah, i've been slowly working my way through it, and I mean you'd have to have only a small amount otherwise the RL nations would get their asses handed to them within a day, plus it'd hurt... a lot...

How would the nations appear out of nowhere...?

If we're thinking of the same John Birmingham, it would only be a few members of the select nation that ended up transported. Toopoxia, this the author who wrote Weapons of Choice, right?

Just because something is technologically feasible doesn't meant it will actually be made and used.
Just remember: Necessity is the mother of Invention.

and a corporate juggernaut such as Microsoft would be nothing more than a backwater branch compared to the immense corporations here.
...And what do we see coming out of the Microsoft juggernaut? First of all Windows. I think that pretty much speaks for itself. But that's not the point.

What I'm trying to say is; how can we assume to decide what is possible and what is not given the budgets of real life nations when they are simply not comparable nor proportional to the nations in NS?

I would phrase it this way:


The NS nations are all huge and so may have technological advantage. That may mean that, say, 1370 years after Jesus Christ was born (did that world ever have that person?), their technology may match real life technology, say, developed 2040 years after the person known as Jesus Christ was born.

Now, let's ask ourselves a question. What does the person known as Jesus Christ have to do with technology? Nothing.
Therefore, the timelines are not aligned. And, therefore, our 2006 may be 1330, 64, 7870, or whatever year in NS world. It is, so, impossible to define technology in terms of NS timeline, because it doesn't even exist.

So, the only sensible definition is this: Modern Tech is the technology feasible in the real life within the following few years.
The world is larger, that's cool - so the period before J.C. birth and development of these technologies was shorter in NS. That might be interesting for a historical study, but doesn't help the slightest in defining techs.



In fact, I'll remind that, originally, MT meant just the modern tech. Current. Then people applied larger nations size and their military dedication - and therefore it was consensually decided that, due to that, NS nations could, at the roleplayed point, have technology we'll reach only in a few years. But, still, MT is not tech available in 10 years. It would be called "Modern plus 10 years tech" then.
Modern Tech is technology supposed to be available right now, take the phone and make the order. These few years are only an arbitrary amount to compensate for larger nations while staying sensible.
So. that size stuff has already been accounted for. If you propose even more tech, that would be counting it twice.

Just because something is technologically feasible doesn't meant it will actually be made and used.
Just remember: Necessity is the mother of Invention.

I know, I'm just under the assumption that it is needed.

...And what do we see coming out of the Microsoft juggernaut? First of all Windows. I think that pretty much speaks for itself. But that's not the point.



I would phrase it this way:


The NS nations are all huge and so may have technological advantage. That may mean that, say, 1370 years after Jesus Christ was born (did that world ever have that person?), their technology may match real life technology, say, developed 2040 years after the person known as Jesus Christ was born.

Now, let's ask ourselves a question. What does the person known as Jesus Christ have to do with technology? Nothing.
Therefore, the timelines are not aligned. And, therefore, our 2006 may be 1330, 64, 7870, or whatever year in NS world. It is, so, impossible to define technology in terms of NS timeline, because it doesn't even exist.

So, the only sensible definition is this: Modern Tech is the technology feasible in the real life within the following few years.
The world is larger, that's cool - so the period before J.C. birth and development of these technologies was shorter in NS. That might be interesting for a historical study, but doesn't help the slightest in defining techs.



In fact, I'll remind that, originally, MT meant just the modern tech. Current. Then people applied larger nations size and their military dedication - and therefore it was consensually decided that, due to that, NS nations could, at the roleplayed point, have technology we'll reach only in a few years. But, still, MT is not tech available in 10 years. It would be called "Modern plus 10 years tech" then.
Modern Tech is technology supposed to be available right now, take the phone and make the order. These few years are only an arbitrary amount to compensate for larger nations while staying sensible.
So. that size stuff has already been accounted for. If you propose even more tech, that would be counting it twice.

I'm not following your first paragraph regarding Christ. Please explain it a bit more clearly.

I see what you're aiming at Jenrak; beyond a certain point, RL nations arn't good references. Back in the day when Trailers was just a lil tike, the unspoken rule was: "No nukes before 250mil" and other such population controls. Then again the largest nation at the time was 1.5 bil. Years later, RP controls are much more flexible. For instance, my nation is an FFT, thus the stuff I use for trade, communications, and military are way beyond what a MT or PMT would allow in his RP. Beyond a certain point, your tech is what the people you RP with let you do. With a defense budget fifty times your GDP I can do what I want. :o

I'm not following your first paragraph regarding Christ. Please explain it a bit more clearly.
I just thought it was elaborate already.

The question is: What's the definition of "Modern"? Here, we define it as 2006-2007 years after the person known as Jesus Christ was born (because AD is counted from that moment; supposedly, at least).

Now, what is the definition of "Modern" in NS? There might have been no such person at all. We can't say that "modern NS is more advanced than modern RL", because NS isn't like other planet - it doesn't exist IRL at all.

Therefore, we can't say "since NS nations are larger, they should have better tech". There is no 2007 in NS. The timelines are separate and the NS timeline is totally unknown. We can't bind them, find the NS 2007. All we can do is bind to the time point when their technology was/is/will be similar to ours. Or any arbitrary one.

Think of it as a fantasy book. Does the Middle-Earth have less tech because their population is lower? Should a book written in 2007 introduce some more technology there? No. It can even be a prequel.
The same applies to NS.

I just thought it was elaborate already.

The question is: What's the definition of "Modern"? Here, we define it as 2006-2007 years after the person known as Jesus Christ was born (because AD is counted from that moment; supposedly, at least).

Now, what is the definition of "Modern" in NS? There might have been no such person at all. We can't say that "modern NS is more advanced than modern RL", because NS isn't like other planet - it doesn't exist IRL at all.

Therefore, we can't say "since NS nations are larger, they should have better tech". There is no 2007 in NS. The timelines are separate and the NS timeline is totally unknown. We can't bind them, find the NS 2007. All we can do is bind to the time point when their technology was/is/will be similar to ours. Or any arbitrary one.

Think of it as a fantasy book. Does the Middle-Earth have less tech because their population is lower? Should a book written in 2007 introduce some more technology there? No. It can even be a prequel.
The same applies to NS.

Aha, but that relates to the numerical construct of the date, when we are discussing the Epoch of technology, the two cannot be compared in such a way.

Another thing worth mentioning is that military secrets are not made publically available. Look at the technology of the American F-117, for example. Its existance was only confirmed some 15 years after it was created. It's very, very naive to say that you know even a smidge of what the U.S. Military, not to mention the Russian, the Chinese, or any other military have in development.

So, basically, no one can be a definate judge of what is "possible within 10 years."

Another thing worth mentioning is that military secrets are not made publically available. Look at the technology of the American F-117, for example. Its existance was only confirmed some 15 years after it was created. It's very, very naive to say that you know even a smidge of what the U.S. Military, not to mention the Russian, the Chinese, or any other military have in development.

So, basically, no one can be a definate judge of what is "possible within 10 years."

but it's within the imagined limits of "within ten years" I mean it can be assumed that we'll have like... power-suits within ten years... The Americans infact said so that they were developing the project, oh! oh! And THELs!!! oh man gotta love the THEL :)

THEL got canceled by both America and Israel. But now they're working on solid state lasers and doing a great job on them (seriously, they got one up to 67 kilowatts, they said they might reach THEL level, 100 kilowatts, next year or something). So yay. >.>

:(

No THEL???

I thought they got a working prototype, they just stopped work on MTHEL didn't they? hmmm, time to take THEL's off my Battleships mebbe?

And THELs!!! oh man gotta love the THEL :)

THEL got canceled by both America and Israel. But now they're working on solid state lasers and doing a great job on them (seriously, they got one up to 67 kilowatts, they said they might reach THEL level, 100 kilowatts, next year or something). So yay. >.>

:(

No THEL???

I thought they got a working prototype, they just stopped work on MTHEL didn't they? hmmm, time to take THEL's off my Battleships mebbe?

MTHEL was shelved too. But uh yeah. The concepts proven and hell, they had megawatt range chemical lasers in the 80's. No reason for removing them really...if you seriously wanted to stick with stuff thats in use. :/

*points at link in Sig...

Something I did a while back on the Divisions of Technical Epochs and the difference... some like, others dislike

Another thing worth mentioning is that military secrets are not made publically available. Look at the technology of the American F-117, for example. Its existance was only confirmed some 15 years after it was created. It's very, very naive to say that you know even a smidge of what the U.S. Military, not to mention the Russian, the Chinese, or any other military have in development.
So, basically, no one can be a definate judge of what is "possible within 10 years."
And that's why we shouldn't attempt it.
Besides, when did Modern Tech start to stand for "within ten years"? It stands for "now". With some tolerance allowed, like, for instance, if a country focused on some tech, it could have it already (at expense of other techs). The secrecy is included in the tolerance (although "known" and "confirmed" are very different things - the latter may never happen at all).

However, I feel the realization of MT has started to lose the ground. Probably we should remind ourselves (and not only) that MT is modern, and that tolerance shouldn't be taken for granted, but rather as tolerance. Let's try to stand on the ground again and rethink MT in terms of modern, current, 2007 technology.

This is why I find that MT/PMT/FT shouldn't be used. You should present to your felllow RPer a note that you use some what odd technology, or one person should state they RP X years ahead of time or Y years behind time - and you can work things out from there. If you use a weapon someone has a problem with, then discuss it wtih them, don't label it as MT or PMT. It just causes problems like this.

I take the PT/MT/FT with a grain of salt, because there can be so much variation within each group. A Bronze Age army would massacre a Stone Age one. FT might mean you can easily zip to the next galaxy, or you just made your first trip outside the solar system. Even in strict MT, you might have a 3rd world mudhole, or a nation bigger than China & richer than the US.

RPing has evolved past MT and PMT etc. When i first joined MT was real, proven and used military equipment. Ok, so maybe the F-35 would be included or the eurofighter before it fully completed, but generally speaking it meant M1A2's, F-16's, all the stuff militaries actually use, and that aren't just being researched.

What you have to remember is the fact that on NS technology would theoretically be WAY more advanced (although probably it would be a ruinous wasteland already, or nuked back to the stone age) if you too kit from the birth of the planet. The immense populations, never ending resources and immortal overseeing leader thing(me and you :P) means that RL would be a titchy, pointless and laughable planet, smaller than some nations.

Pretty much that means in 10years time with NS budgets, yes, the world would be crazily full of new gadgets and military tech, but if we take it that its at RL dev levels of what COULD be in 10years time its a different story.

So all in all, ignore what MT and PMT is, the lines between such eras was broken long ago, its not possible to implement proper rules unless you use RL MT, the way you see things going could be so different from others.

And that's why we shouldn't attempt it.
Besides, when did Modern Tech start to stand for "within ten years"? It stands for "now". With some tolerance allowed, like, for instance, if a country focused on some tech, it could have it already (at expense of other techs). The secrecy is included in the tolerance (although "known" and "confirmed" are very different things - the latter may never happen at all).

However, I feel the realization of MT has started to lose the ground. Probably we should remind ourselves (and not only) that MT is modern, and that tolerance shouldn't be taken for granted, but rather as tolerance. Let's try to stand on the ground again and rethink MT in terms of modern, current, 2007 technology.

I'd have to disagree with this. It's unrealistic to assume that nations with defense budgets that make the U.S. one look like South Africas' would have technology on par with the U.S.

It's also unrealistic to assume that these massive NS nations have no black projects.

I think that, ultimately, there has to be tolerance on EVERYONES part, or NS won't work.

It's unrealistic to assume that nations with defense budgets that make the U.S. one look like South Africas' would have technology on par with the U.S.

Well, then it should be about 200 years ahead. Or maybe 500. Clearly not these tiny decades we're talking about.

Now is the point more clear? These nations would have to be centuries ahead. C-e-n-t-u-r-i-e-s. So we're sort of roleplaying their past. Though, more specifically, they have no past or present at all anyway - we don't coexist.

I'd have to disagree with this. It's unrealistic to assume that nations with defense budgets that make the U.S. one look like South Africas' would have technology on par with the U.S.

It's also unrealistic to assume that these massive NS nations have no black projects.

I think that, ultimately, there has to be tolerance on EVERYONES part, or NS won't work.

Point 1- It is unrealistic, but its also unrealistic to asume that your nation hasn't run out of all its precious resources yet. With such massive budgets, there must be a lot of production going on somewhere, using up resources, not to meantion the incredible population growth. Simply put, its easier to stick to it that its based on RL tech.

Point 2- Pretty much so, but time periods of NS change a lot, if 1day=1NS year then my nations pretty old now, and seeing as i started on RL MT if each year i was advancing technologically(very fast, and quicker and quicker due to advanced computing, manufacturing etc) i would pretty much beat even the FT nations around.

Point 3- There has and will be tolerence. In general it seems to me there is an unwritten understanding of what is, and isn't acceptable for each time period. This varies from player to player, RP to RP, but guidelines have been set out, such as how to design a jet fighter for example.

When those rules are broken, GODMODE and IGNORE comes into play, although discussions are often held to solve any problems.

Its fair to say we act as if all nations are equal, because or else i would be owned by the 8bil nations because their tech would be so much better due to age of nation, and i would own those a few mil pop smaller than me, because any tech they can make in that time, so can i, and i've advanced past it. That would be ridiculous, so we do act as equals.

Oh, and on the no nukes for nations under 250mil pop etc, i've pushed the boundaries by RPing gaining nuclear weapons etc, and there's been no problem before, but now those rules may have changed again. MT, PMT and FT are ways of ensuring RPers do so well, or at least with some idea of what is expected on everyones part.

Agreed. Since making a kind of "local timeline" doesn't make sense, it's better to bind it to RL somewhat. As so, MT ends between 2010-2015, MT+1 is that 2010-2020 zone, PMT is over 2015.

But, really, MT, PMT and FT are more about how much is it tolerable to bend the laws of physics. In MT, real-life science and technology are the unquestionable reference - people may not know everything, but what is known is the priority. In PMT-Near FT, the rules are lifted, leaving only math and basic physics exempt from override "because I like it". In Far FT, even math barely applies.