NationStates Jolt Archive

PINA (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Public_International_News_Ariddia) interview

Mélanie Dupré: "Good afternoon. I'm Mélanie Dupré (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/M%C3%A9lanie_Dupr%C3%A9). You're watching PINA's 'face to face' interview. With me here today are Zaïrian ambassador to Ariddia Eugène Bolongo, and PINA political affairs specialist Angelic Nettles. Mr. Ambassador, good afternoon, and thank you for accepting our invitation. This interview will be carried out in French, since that is a common official language in Zaïre and Ariddia; dubbing is provided for international viewers.

Before we begin the actual discussion, a reminder of the situation which has brought us here. Recently, my colleague Pareesa Rahmati (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Pareesa_Rahmati) interviewed exiled Zaïrian dissident and former Prime Minister Étienne Tshisekedi (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/%C3%89tienne_Tshisekedi), here on PINA. In reaction, Zaïrian President Mobutu (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Mobutu_Sese_Seko) has sentenced Mr. Tshisikedi to death. There is a list of charges, including "spreading malicious rumours" against President Mobutu, all amounting to treason.

The Ariddian authorities have condemned the decision, and you, Ambassador Bolongo, have accused the Ariddian government of orchestrating a plot to overthrow President Mobutu's government.

Now, there's a lot for us to discuss here, but to begin, perhaps you could clarify exactly what actions by Mr. Tshisikedi led to his conviction. The proclamation of his sentence listed the official charges, but not the specific actions which Mr. Tshisikedi is allegedly guilty of. If you could give us precise examples of treasonous acts, Mr. Ambassador?

Bolongo: "First, let me thank you for granting me this interview. Hopefully, people can now hear the pro-Zaire perspective, and, having heard both sides of the story, well, hopefully then they can draw their own conclusions..." (coughs) "Mr. Tshisekedi, he is a well-known trouble maker, very well known. He flagrantly violated the law by advocating the legalization of oppositon parties, which is illegal under Zairian law, as the 1974 constitution, revived after the Great Central African War, officially proscribes Zaire as a single-party state, with a single institution, the Popular Movement of the Revolution. Tshisekedi made many defamatory remarks, attributing isolated instances of corruption and occasional exaggerated abuses to our Head of State. As the chief of our people, President Mobutu is above criticism, as well he should be. Further, Tshisekedi calls for boycotts, protests, demonstrations - all which serve to undermine the legitimate, popularly-elected government. Lastly, there is concrete evidence, which I myself have seen, linking Tshisekedi to dissident generals who were executed last year for plotting a coup."

Nettles: "It's interesting to hear your perspective, Mr. Ambassador. Thank you for agreeing to this discussion. Now... You recently said that Zaïre values freedom of speech. I understand that, in many cultures and countries, it is not permitted to criticise one's leader. But isn't that a major limitation on freedom of speech? And aren't protests and demonstrations, as long as they're peaceful, a legitimate form of expression? Of freedom of speech? You've stated several times that President Mobutu's government is legitimate because it was elected by the people. But if there is only one party, if protests are not permitted, and if the President can't be criticised... Do you see what I'm getting at with this, Mr. Ambassador?"

Bolongo: "Yes, I do. You raise a valid point. However, if you would excuse my saying so, you make a grave error, in that you compare the concept of democracy as applied in other countries to democracy in Zaire. Zaire is truly democratic in that everyone belongs to the MPR - from birth unto death. Debate within the party is lively, and many opposing viewpoints can be heard. Moreover, the elections we hold are genuinely competitive, with several radically different candidates vying for the same seats in local or national government. As for President Mobutu...again, the role of a chief in Zaire is different from, say, a chief in Ariddia. In Zaire, the chief embodies the state. President Mobutu made Zaire, he made all of us who we are, we would be in a mess without him...I need only point to the five-year, anarchic Congo Crisis preceding his rule to prove this. In short, without him, we would be nothing. He has established a lasting peace and created a single national identity, bringing together more than 200 previously antagonistic tribes, forging them into a single people. We Zairians hold a chief in high esteem. He is our father, our liberator, our guide. As such, we view criticism of him as a taboo. To criticize the chief would be anathema to our African character."

Nettles: "Thank you for clarifying that. But regarding the issue of 'chaos'... By all accounts the... living conditions of many Zairians today are, quite frankly, catastrophic. The infant mortality rate, for instance, is very high. As a spokesman for the Zaïrian government, could you tell us -"

Dupré: "If I may interrupt just a moment? We'll get to the humanitarian issue shortly. Before that, I'd like to come back to the question of Mr. Tshisikedi's conviction. I asked you about the specific actions - specific treasonous actions - Mr. Tshisikedi is said to have committed. You say, Mr. Ambassador, that you have evidence of his connections with an attempted military coup. Earlier you said he has tried to stir up inter-ethnic conflict. These are very serious accusations, and given the context you can understand the international community being... curious. To make matters perfectly clear, is there any chance of the Zaïrian authorities releasing... to the international public the evidence which led to Mr. Tshisikedi's conviction?"

Bolongo: "I'm sorry, but I would need authorization from the Foreign Minister to do that."


{OOC: Please read this (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zairian_relations_with_Ariddia) and share your thoughts, and if you would like, make any necessary changes or adjustments.}

Dupré: "All right. That's understandable enough. We'll see whether we can get in touch directly with the Zaïrian authorities, and hopefully clarify that issue."

Nettles: "Before we mention humanitarian issues, to finish with that question of Zaïrian democracy... Do you believe, genuinely, that democracy is compatible with a one Party State, with a country in which other parties are outlawed, I mean, and with a... cultural taboo, shall we say, on criticising one's leader? What are your views on democracy, Mr. Ambassador?"



{OOC: Please read this (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Zairian_relations_with_Ariddia) and share your thoughts, and if you would like, make any necessary changes or adjustments.}

OOC: Looks good to me. Very NPOV.

{OOC: Thanks.}

Bolongo: "I believe that multi-partyism has no place in Africa, including Zaire. Africans are already bitterly divided as it is - by tribe, by class, by religion, etc. - that it is difficult to establish unity. One way to do this, as has been shown in Zaire, is through a participatory single party to which everyone, regardless of their views, belongs. Everyone's voice can be heard, all opposing viewpoints are welcomed. If you ever get the chance to drop in on a session of the National Legislative Council, you will see that debate is spirited and vibrant, and a broad array of viewpoints are voiced. It is truly a democracy representative of the people. As for Mobutu, he was elected by the people themselves, by popular vote, most recently (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11831023&postcount=1) in 2006. Zaire respects all opinions, welcomes all viewpoints. We do not jail people for political reasons. This, I think, is real democracy."

Nettles: "Are outsiders authorised to attend sessions of the National Legislative Council? If so, perhaps I'll take you up on that offer.

Now, the question of... the humanitarian situation. By all accounts, your country is facing a disaster, a humanitarian crisis. How is the government coping with that?"

Bolongo: "Of course. I can make all the necessary arrangements. Now, for the humanitarian crisis...we are having difficulty coping, I will admit. Our government is burdened by a tremendous foreign debt. We spend so much paying off our debt, that we are left with little to spend on social programs, healthcare, and food for our people. Moreover, many foreign companies are hesitant to invest in Zaire, and most nations abroad have long ago stopped sending foreign aid. We face a predicament, but have little means to overcome it."

Dupré: "With the media's attention on the situation, the fact that it's getting worse, do you think an appeal for increased foreign aid, or concrete humanitarian support, might be listened to?"

Bolongo: "It's possible, but then again, Africa has been let down by the world many times before. The Rwandan Genocide is a prime example."

Dupré: "Let's hope the world does not remain insensitive to the suffering of the Zairian people, then. Now, Mr. Ambassador, on a very different issue... Going back to the matter of Mr. Tshisikedi's conviction. You recently implied that the government of Ariddia might be complicit in alleged treasonous actions, or plots."

Nettles: "More specifically, Mr. Ambassador, you spoke of... I quote... 'an Ariddian-orchestrated plot to foment violent revolution to bring down the popularly elected Government of Zaire'. And President Mobutu publicly stated that Mr. Tshisekedi had 'covertly convened with Ariddians, possibly with the connivance of their government, to plot the overthrow and physical elimination of the Chief of State' - namely himself. Would you like to comment further on this? Perhaps clarify what you and President Mobutu meant?"

Bolongo: "I have seen reports, documented by SNIP, which show in detail plots to overthrow Mobutu. I cannot say more, as these reports remain highly classified."

Nettles: "Without going into specifics, then. You maintain that you have... strong suspicions of an attempted Ariddian involvement? Suspicions, or certainty? Without actually giving us names, are there specific, identified individuals... Ariddian that you... that SNIP suspect?"

Bolongo: (evasive, refusing to make eye contact) "I...cannot say."

Nettles (after a long moment's silence): "Very well. Mr. Ambassador... As you know, Mr. Tshisiketi is not the only person to voice concerns about the issue of civil rights in Zaïre. I assume you're going to tell us those concerns are unfounded, but for our viewers who may be... skeptical, what might you say in response to accusations? Accusations by Mr. Tshisikedi and others. For instances, right here on PINA, Mr. Tshisikedi was very specific. He mentioned a recent peaceful demonstration crushed by the army, with dozens of fatalities. Unarmed people massacred for taking part in a peaceful march. Widespread torture, killings, plunder, rape... Mainly by military personnel who feel they can act with impunity. Presumably you reject these accusations, Mr. Ambassador, but what way is there for the outside world to ascertain the truth, as to what's going on within Zaïre?"

Bolongo: "These are complete fabrications which originated in the Belgian media. No credible evidence exists to support these lies."

Nettles: "So... your answer would be that... there is no need to disprove the validity of the accusations? What harm would there be in proving your accusers wrong, Mr. Ambassador? I mean, if you look at it from the perspective of someone who's not sure what to believe... Can you understand why they might be doubtful when you say you won't show people what's happening in Zaïre, and you won't respond to specific accusations, despite the fact that you allegedly have nothing to hide?"

Bolongo: "I would like to ask what your sources are for these claims. I can guarantee that they are sources with zero credibility and a heavy bias against Zaire."

Nettles: "Other than Mr. Tshisikedi himself, who has first hand experience of the situation in the country, Amnesty International has published reports with long lists of very specific accusations. So my question would be, why not address these accusations and prove that they are wrong? What is there for your government to lose in shedding light on what's allegedly happening?"

Bolongo: "Let me ask you...why does Zaire receive the lion's share of AI's criticism regarding Africa? It merely underscores the racist, condescending mentality of these so-called human rights defenders. They're fabrications of Zairian 'human rights abuses,' are motivated by their overriding hatred of African people."

Dupré: "Ambassador... Just to clarify. Are you saying that any criticism against an African government can be dismissed as racism? And if not, then have you got any proof of Amnesty International's bias? And again... Why not simply disprove their accusations?"

Bolongo: "The proof presents itself. If you want, I can take you on a tour of the country, and you can for yourself."

Dupré: "That... Well, yes, I think PINA would take you up on that."

Nettles: "PINA's Pareesa Rahmati is in Zaïre, covering the Red Star's humanitarian work. Could you organise a thorough tour of the country for her? Taking her into hospitals, media centres, erm... police stations, prisons?"

Bolongo: (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Eug%C3%A8ne_Bolongo) "Yes, that can most definitely be arranged. President Mobutu is an honest man. He has nothing to hide. Whatever you want to see, you can see."

Dupré: "Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. One last question, and then if there's anything further you'd like to add, please do so. My question: Will this interview be broadcast publicly in Zaïre?"


OOC: Yes, I noticed the wiki article yesterday. ;)

{OOC: Cool. The ironic thing is, I used the pic of one of Mobutu's biggest critics for Bolongo. :p}

Bolongo: "I don't know. You would have to ask the Information Minister, Mr. Sakombi. He decides what is appropriate for television and what is not."

Dupré: "Would you like to at least tell us what the criteria are to decide what's 'appropriate', and to formulate a guess on that basis?"

{OOC: Bump}

Bolongo: "Well, I would say, if it makes the government look bad, or makes President Mobutu look bad, it is not appropriate. Or if it tarnishes our country's image in any way, or makes us, our people, look weak. I would say that would constitute inappropriate content and be grounds for censorship."

Nettles: "Well, that's very clear. Thank you."

Dupré: "To conclude this interview, is there anything you'd like to add, Mr. Ambassador? On any topic?"

Bolongo: "Not that I can think of...do you have any final questions?"

Dupré: "No, that was our last question. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for agreeing to this interview."

Bolongo: "It is my pleasure."

Nettles: "Thank you, Ambassador."

Dupré: "We return now to the news, and the headlines today..."