NationStates Jolt Archive

In this thread, Vontanas and I are creating a concept idea for a joint currency.

In my opinion, a polymer-based currency would be best for starters. Hard to counterfeit, durable, strong, lightweight, flexible, etc. Some major benefits can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_banknote#Security_features).

Let's face it, any money that can be printed can be, to some degree, counterfeited, especially in NS. If a government can print it, another government can also print it, as can probably some of the extragovernmental organizations out there.

If you put tippy top secret coded stuff on it, they can merely pass it off to the man on the stree who doesn't know that.

Well, naturally anything could be counterfeited. The point is to make that difficult and time-consuming.

Exactly. It would be best to put as many securities in, making it a drain on money to copy, for most. Multi-billion governments or giant global corporations could probably make some profits off of it.

So I say we first get in the material. Whilst the jean idea is novel, I'm not sure it would go over well. It would tatter, would be hard to print on, etc, etc. Imagine trying to make currency out of silk or leather - impossible. It's either polymer or paper. What's your vote?

So I say we first get in the material. Whilst the jean idea is novel, I'm not sure it would go over well. It would tatter, would be hard to print on, etc, etc. Imagine trying to make currency out of silk or leather - impossible. It's either polymer or paper. What's your vote?

It is a relativly unknown fact that the American Dollar is made out of the jean material, as paper is to easy to destroy. If only given paper or polymer, it is without a doubt polymer. However, without a doubt it would be cheaper and still give more durability then paper if we used the jean material. If polymer is really :rolleyes: that great, then it is without a doubt polymer then.

I think you mean the USD has cotton in it...I can't believe that it's made out of the material that goes into my jeans...

is counterfeiting the only concern?

No; it's just a large focus - take the redesign of the USD - almost entirely about counterfeiting.

GOLD

Just interested in the economics of it (though I have, at best, a medieval understanding of ecnonmics). Its kind of a big deal to create a new currency (I thin), and I'm wondering if there is any way any Siapian business people can make a profit without causing any specific harm.

Yeah, counterfeiting is a major concern. We'll get to the details of what will go on the currency later, as well as come up with a name for it. Polymer it is for the material, I guess.

EDIT: Gold is a currency already. Siapian buisness people could make money from it by actually using it. It's a dual currency, used for international trading, and can be used domestically along with the national currency.

Pogs are always a good currency. I believe the U.S. Military uses them somewhere as they're lighter than coins.

Currency is back. (IN POG FORM!)

Polymer is my nation's vote also, for the use of it. Also, if possible, a few half dollars of a semi-cheap metal material would be a nice investment to have.

If anything, it would make it harder for countries to counterfeit both types of goods.

Official Response from the Havian Government

OOC: In the 'Protectorate' thread, I said that I was going to join your economic pact. I hope you don't mind do you Vontanas?

Pogs are always a good currency. I believe the U.S. Military uses them somewhere as they're lighter than coins.

Currency is back. (IN POG FORM!)

LOL. Love that show. :D

We're designing a NEW currency. Not gold, or anything that is already a currency. Gold is hard to get, the USD is more of a comparison, and most everything else is on a national basis only.

Alright, so, BL, do you have any more comments on the type of material? If not, we can move on too what it's actually going to look like.

Alright, so, BL, do you have any more comments on the type of material? If not, we can move on too what it's actually going to look like.

No, there are more things to work on for counterfeiting deterrents.

I'm done with material comments. As for Vontana's security concerns, here are my proposals: intaglio, offset and letterpress printing, latent images, micro-printing, optically variable shadow images, optically variable ink, security threads (magnetic ink character recognition text), transparent windows, and diffraction grating. I think that's pretty comprehensive for a polymer banknote.

I'm done with material comments. As for Vontana's security concerns, here are my proposals: intaglio, offset and letterpress printing, latent images, micro-printing, optically variable shadow images, optically variable ink, security threads (magnetic ink character recognition text), transparent windows, and diffraction grating. I think that's pretty comprehensive for a polymer banknote.

It's not really that important to get all of the stats down. We'll assume it's incredibly hard to counterfeit. Now, what shall we call it? I think the Mark is good.

I think we need something more original, more distinctive...

I propose the Lucre as the name.

The Lucre sounds foreign and unfamiliar. It should be something people of all cultures can understand and accept. Perhaps the Bridge?

The bridge seems to unwieldy and confusable with other nouns, namely, bridges. How about the dinarii? Noting its roots in Roman history, it would be familar to a vast majority of individuals.

Is the currency going to be backed by anything to start out with?

Also, The Community has a large printing industry already in place. If you let us print an amount of the currency, we will accept it as legal tender along side the platcred (platium credit).

Dinarii is an interesting name, but we would opt (were we given a say in the matter) towards a form of the word credit, since it is a credit for goods and services. The platinum credit began as a credit for an amount of platinum. The original coins had trace amounts of platinum in them.

The bridge seems to unwieldy and confusable with other nouns, namely, bridges. How about the dinarii? Noting its roots in Roman history, it would be familar to a vast majority of individuals.

The Dinarii is dead, and indeed there are many a nation that hate the Roman Empire. What about the Basic, or if we get this low, the International?

EDIT: Better idea, the Standard/Basic/International/Universal Credit?

.....Nuyen. >.>

.....Nuyen. >.>

Seems Japanese based. New Yen. Yeah....

I actually like Nuyen...

Ecod is my proposal. :)

I actually like Nuyen...

Of course you do. Everyone likes Nuyen. *slips BL a fifty nuyen bill*

Ecod could work, but I don't really think Nuyen would go well in many nations. How about we each propose a name, and combine them into one name? I propose either the Credit or the Mark.

Exp: Nuyen Ecod Credit= Nuyecod Credit

The Pacifica! Catchy, souds nice, and purdy. And you two are in the pacific too!

Plan B.

The.... Atlantica!

Umm..., neither please.

I do like the adding of all the names together though.

Why not Nuyecredit? I like the idea combining, but Nuyecod isn't too appealing to the audial senses.

The Pacifica! Catchy, souds nice, and purdy. And you two are in the pacific too!

Plan B.

The.... Atlantica!

...Both of which are areas. Vantanas only holds a single colony in the Pacific, while British Londinium has nothing in the Atlantic. Also, it's designed to be an international currency, as in all nations can use it.

EDIT: BL, Havvy has a right to add something in as well, as he formally joined the monetary council. So, Havvy what's your contribution to the name going to be? BL, are you going to stick with Nuyen?

Why couldn't they?

Why not Nuyecredit? I like the idea combining, but Nuyecod isn't too appealing to the audial senses.

Because that gets rid of mine. Nuycodit? Ecityet? Crecoyen?

Why couldn't they?

They are favourable to certain regions/countries in those regions. Now, Nuyecodit (N), Ecityet (N), Crecoyen (M), remember we can also use Mark instead of Credit. So, Nuyecomark (Pronounced: New Ye [Olde English] Co [Short for Company] Mark)

Nuyecomark works for me.

Sure, that's reasonable.

When it starts getting printed, my country will start the phasing out stage for it's currency.

That sounds grand - but just so you know, the UK doesn't intend to dismantle its currency, the Cicero. The Nuyecomark will operate alongside the Cicero, but not as a replacement.

Sure, that's reasonable.

When it starts getting printed, my country will start the phasing out stage for it's currency.

Because of initial conflict, it is not necessary to have this be the sole currency. It can work beside the Havvian national currency. Now, onto what the Nuyecomark will look like. We assume it will be rectangular?

Naturally. I was thinking the dimensions of a British pound. On the front would be a portrait of a major figure to the nation that bill was printed in (i.e. mine might the portrait of my king, etc), and on the back, an architectural landmark specific to the bill's origin. Blue-ish colour.

Can we do square? They take up less polymer, which means cheaper replacements (about half the price I believe). That or maybe so odd shape, such as a pentagon.

How does that work?

Oh, and the value of the Zomania is very week. We need a new currency or we'll lose all value in the Zomania.

Can we do square? They take up less polymer, which means cheaper replacements (about half the price I believe). That or maybe so odd shape, such as a pentagon.

How does that work?

Oh, and the value of the Zomania is very weak. We need a new currency or we'll lose all value in the Zomania.

We're not forcing you to keep the Zomania (sounds like a game show). I vote rectangular, as it is only going to waste money for counterfeiters. I also like the blue-ish idea, although green, purple, yellow, and brown would also be acceptable. Now, can I have the actual dimenisions of the British Pound, such as an estimate (assuming you have a good sense of distance)? I, however oppose to a national/landmark being used. I propose two "portraits" with universally acceptable images (stars, trees, roses, etc.) on either side of a large rectangle, with the corners of said rectangle being curved in, to form a "pocket". The value of said bill will be in these "pockets".

No, I don't want any pockets. They would make it take up too much space in a cash register. They need to be able to fit in nice easy stacks.

Well, I think that having neutral symbols would be a good idea. I know a good one for the "1" value Nuyecomark. A picture of the globe, and that can show the world that we care about internationality.

Also, what should the values be for the currency? I'm going with the USD (United States Dollar) and have the following:

1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 10,000, 50,000, and any higher than that can be decided later. I want to know though, how much should '10' nuyecomarks get you? I want to say the value of 5 USDs.

We wouldn't need coins.

No, we'd need coins, in my opinion. As for the pockets, it wouldn't affect the shape, as far as I know - it's a stylistic thing within the rectangle of the bill. As for the value, I don't think it ought to be higher than the USD. How about the average rate against the dollar, comprised of the values of all participating nations?

No, I don't want any pockets. They would make it take up too much space in a cash register. They need to be able to fit in nice easy stacks.

Well, I think that having neutral symbols would be a good idea. I know a good one for the "1" value Nuyecomark. A picture of the globe, and that can show the world that we care about internationality.

Also, what should the values be for the currency? I'm going with the USD (United States Dollar) and have the following:

1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 10,000, 50,000, and any higher than that can be decided later. I want to know though, how much should '10' nuyecomarks get you? I want to say the value of 5 USDs.

We wouldn't need coins.

Not actual pockets. Imagine a rectangle. Now imagine that instead of the sides meeting in traditional corners, they bend in about a centimeter from were they would meet, and join to make a right angle. This would be were the value would go. Here's my idea for the currency:

1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000

My suggestion for the pictures
1= Picture of West Globe in Center, Picture of East Globe in Right, Picture of South Globe in Left
10= Picture of Night Sky in Center, Moon in Right, Sun in Left
100= Picture of Tree in Center, Acorn in Right Box, Leaf in Left
1000= Picture of Ocean in Center, Storm in Right, Ship in Left
10000= Picture of Lightening Bolt in Center, Fire in Right, Wind in Left
100000= Picture of Soldier in Center, Shield in Right, Sword in Left
1000000= Picture of Diamond in Center, Amethyst in Left, Ruby in Right

As for inflation, I think that 1 USD= .5 Nuyecomark is reasonable.

I have a suggestion for the values. I like the idea of keeping it at the same value as the US Dollar, but for coins, instead of going down to 1/100th of a Nuyecomark, I suggest only going down to 1/10th. Because of inflation, it would not be a wise investment to mint many coins.

I agree with Siap on this one.

I agree with Siap on this one.

How about this:

5
10
25

I know what you're going to say, "Money wasting". No, we have a hole in each of the coins in the shape of a star. Surrounding this is olive branches. The coins get bigger along with the value, and other then that there would be no differences.

That works for me. For the banknote values, I think we should use -

1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 10000.

As for the designs, I really don't care.

Right then, we'll use my designs. Now, I believe the final issue is the blind. I suggest a combination of Braille and scenting.

Scenting? I'm for the braille, against the scenting.

I disagree with the use of coins. That is why I wanted the Nuyecomark to have half the value of 1 USD.

Oh well, to each there own way. I'll be accepting only the print money.

Oh, and what symbol should they have before the value when writing it?

I like the idea of having no coins, but I think a 10 note is of little use. How about going up to 100. Are we expecting circulation of bills higher than 100? If its half of the dollar, than I thing the most we could ever expect for circulation is a 500 note.

My proposal in short (assuming it will be 1/2 the USD):

1 5 20 50 100 500

We have no feelings about the designs, although they probably should avoid specific people and symbols of national identity.

Okay then. I think we can release the Nuyecomark now.

Tinraya, Vantanas

The council of representatives from the many nations come out on stage. They introduce the Nuyecomark and the coins to the public. The Vantanians explain who those who are getting their money exchanged will recieve the Nuyecomark, and 50% of government workers will recieve the Nuyecomark in Vantanas. The Nuyecomark will, with-in time, become just as recognized as the Print.

OOC: 4, maybe 5 actually. Me, Siap, You, and BL. Laquasa Island was the other one if you count that nation.

OOC: 4, maybe 5 actually. Me, Siap, You, and BL. Laquasa Island was the other one if you count that nation.

OOC: Fixed. So, now we have the Nuyecomark, and trade between our nations will be easier. Anyother nations wishing to use the Nuyecomark may.

Its not our official currency, however the Nuyecomark is recognized by The Community as legal tender for all debts public and private.

Status of Havian Economy

The Zomania is not being printed anymore. 'Coin' collectors are now collecting as much print bills as possible.

The Nuyecomark is being printed, and now takes up 3% of the money. We expect that to increase over time, as any Zomania acquired by banks is replaced with Nuyecomarks unless asked to be put into a Safety Deposit Account.

[OOC: What is the purpose of an international currency? Countries have their own currencies because it allows them to control interest rates. Having the same currency over numerous countries means most of those countries will have suboptimal interest rates most of the time, and thus their economies will grow more slowly. This is true within countries as well, but since countries generally have a fairly uniform level of development the effect is negliable. Having a large number of countries using a currency also makes it unpredictable and unstable, as it is dependant on a vast array of economic conditions and circumstances. Having a shared currency between many nations is at best pointless and at worst damaging unless your aim is political integration rather than economic growth. The USD is used in posts not because people actually trade in the USD, but because it allows players (mostly Americans) to visualise how much money is being transferred.]

[OOC: What is the purpose of an international currency? Countries have their own currencies because it allows them to control interest rates. Having the same currency over numerous countries means most of those countries will have suboptimal interest rates most of the time, and thus their economies will grow more slowly. This is true within countries as well, but since countries generally have a fairly uniform level of development the effect is negliable. Having a shared currency between many nations is at best pointless and at worst damaging unless your aim is political integration rather than economic growth. The USD is used in posts not because people actually trade in the USD, but because it allows players (mostly Americans) to visualise how much money is being transferred.]

OOC: Then why is the Euro still used?

OOC: Political integration is an important aim of this plan. The problem of hindered economic growth, in my opinion, is alleviated due to the fact that this operates alongside our native currencies.

OOC: Then why is the Euro still used?
Because the purpose of the Euro is to make the European Union a country, not to ensure optimal interest rates and optimal currency stability. The Eurozone has underperformed European countries of similar economic development which have stayed out, on average. A more pertinent question would be "Why doesn't everyone use the Euro?".

OOC: Political integration is an important aim of this plan.
I see. Well, it's a good idea then. I just wonder if everyone else knows this, since it wasn't initially mentioned.

Well, I like to have unions of political ideas. Thus, having an international currency, and having an international language. They make things disclosure a lot easier. Me personally, would like to see the world have a common language of Espanol (Spanish). I'd be happy to learn Spanish to become an international language. I joined this international union for economic reasons, but not for value (well, partially for value), but still.

I dont mean the currency will be worth less in absolute terms. The absolute value of a currency is pretty much irrelevent. What I am saying is that your country will have interest rates either lower or higher than the optimal rate, you will not be able to control how much currency is being printed and the fate of your economy will be bound to circumstances in other memberstates that are mostly beyond your control.

If you want to try to create some sort of United States of the World and dont really care if your economy is damaged in the process and dont mind the inevitable loss of sovereignty that entails then, sure, this is the way to go.

Act of Parliament

Emperor Micah I has pulled an act of Parliament through, stopping production of coins, domestic or international. All mints shall stop production after next week. The official reason is to stop wasting metal.

During the Week

All coins that added up to a Nuyecomark or a Print were turned in for a Nuyecomark or Print, respectivly. Those that didn't were donated, or kept as a collection.

Raffle

All of the coins that had been donated had been gathered, and the entire coin collector population was in Tinraya. Each type of coin was raffled off, and soon there were no coins left. An estimated one million Nuyecomarks have been made on raffles.

what exactly do you have in mind?

OOC: Have you read the thread?

Hey, Eurasia, can it be possible that you build an NS page for it?

Havians Express Need Over 1/10 Nuyecomark.

"Hey, my favorite candy was just raised in value by 30 cents."
"What? You are lowering my hourly wage by 15cents while raising the price of the product 5!"
"Uhgg..., the minimum wage has been dropped down to 10 Nuyecomarks. It used to be 5.24 Zomanias! What an outrage!"

Due to such outrage, and evil practices, we are asking that you add in a 1/10th Nuyecomark. It could show the picture of a nice lean stick figure on it. Just add it in, as it would save our country a lot of money.

Well, it would also lower tax income, but that doesn't matter. We need this, because everything has gone up in value. Economists expect the cost of living to increase 2.4% this month, while the average paycheck shrinks 1.78%. This is a crisis waiting to happen.

Economists that looked at the idea of having a 1/10th Nuyecomark, came to a better conclusion. They concluded, cost of living would only increase 0.3%, a .1% increase over the thoughts if would be, and an addition of 0.4% to the average wage minus those who make over 100,000 Nuyecomarks.

Please get it in print, that 1/10th Nuyecomarks printed (we already started printing them with stick figures on them), shall be allowed in any and all countries that use Nuyecomarks.

Havians Express Need Over 1/10 Nuyecomark.

"Hey, my favorite candy was just raised in value by 30 cents."
"What? You are lowering my hourly wage by 15cents while raising the price of the product 5!"
"Uhgg..., the minimum wage has been dropped down to 10 Nuyecomarks. It used to be 5.24 Zomanias! What an outrage!"

Due to such outrage, and evil practices, we are asking that you add in a 1/10th Nuyecomark. It could show the picture of a nice lean stick figure on it. Just add it in, as it would save our country a lot of money.

Well, it would also lower tax income, but that doesn't matter. We need this, because everything has gone up in value. Economists expect the cost of living to increase 2.4% this month, while the average paycheck shrinks 1.78%. This is a crisis waiting to happen.

Economists that looked at the idea of having a 1/10th Nuyecomark, came to a better conclusion. They concluded, cost of living would only increase 0.3%, a .1% increase over the thoughts if would be, and an addition of 0.4% to the average wage minus those who make over 100,000 Nuyecomarks.

Please get it in print, that 1/10th Nuyecomarks printed (we already started printing them with stick figures on them), shall be allowed in any and all countries that use Nuyecomarks.

OOC: *cough* 1/10 Coin *cough*

IC:

A better alternative for the 1/10th Nuyecomark Bill is this:

Mechanical Gear in Center, Hammer in Left, Sickle in Right

This thread confuses me wildly.

From what I understand, N$ is the international currency. Designing an international currency isn't possible as N$ is just what the game calls its base line money. Most of the time, we just wire money anyways.

Every country uses its own currency. Mine is the talon, it's based on a silver standard. Kesshite prefers to deal in gold, silver, platinum, or palladium bullion when on the international market.

OOC: *cough* 1/10 Coin *cough*

IC:

A better alternative for the 1/10th Nuyecomark Bill is this:

Mechanical Gear in Center, Hammer in Left, Sickle in Right

Never shall a capitalistic object (money) have such a communistic picture on it. I am sorry, but we at Havvy can not accept that. Instead, maybe a picture trio such as this: Pencil-Paper-Pen.

OOC: No Coins Please.

This thread confuses me wildly.

From what I understand, N$ is the international currency. Designing an international currency isn't possible as N$ is just what the game calls its base line money. Most of the time, we just wire money anyways.

Every country uses its own currency. Mine is the talon, it's based on a silver standard. Kesshite prefers to deal in gold, silver, platinum, or palladium bullion when on the international market.

Well, we have a standard value for the Nuyecomark in comparison to the NS dollar. We call it 1/2 value.

We might wire the value, but still, we have our own things. This is a roleplay, so making a currency, while might not affecting other rps (although this one probably will), it is still a nice activity.

V10CC official: We inform you that Vault-Tec controlled territories use caps as their currency, derived from original bottle caps. The modern version exists exclusively in electronic form, and is freely interchangeable with N$ at course slightly over 2 N$ per cap. We do not plan to move to any printed currency, although many traders accept different currencies, from gold to pot, and so will likely accept nuyecomarks as well.


Inofficial addendum letter from a concerned citizen:
Never shall a capitalistic object (money) have such a communistic picture on it.
What, guys? Never? I've got five hundreds of Soviet coins, and, the heck, they all have communistic pictures.
My suggestion, if you don't like that symbol, is the complete opposite of it: Sickle on the left and Hammer on the right.

-James, philatelist.

If you will not accept agriculture and manufacturing, then how about this: Gear in the center, Arrow on the Right, Pen on the Left. Mechanics, Precision, and Knowledge. Will this be acceptable?

Yes, that is alright.

Why the hell are we putting arrows on currency? We need designs that are inspiring, noble, show some sort of bloody history, not cogs and pens and arrows!

Why the hell are we putting arrows on currency? We need designs that are inspiring, noble, show some sort of bloody history, not cogs and pens and arrows!

You realize how hard that is to do with neutral images? Cogs show the brilliance of the human mind, pens show the importance of memory, and arrows are noble, showing precision. I can think of a certain English rebel, Rob in the Hood, who was the master of the bow. It doesn't even matter to you, you have your coins!

Why the hell are we putting arrows on currency? We need designs that are inspiring, noble, show some sort of bloody history, not cogs and pens and arrows!


Well, is their any history that this currency has at this point? Since the answer is no, well, we can't show history. Decides, when has money ever been permanent? We can change it at any point if we wish.

Look, just because its new, doesn't mean it sucks. Why not put national landmarks? Anything is better than pens, cogs, and arrows.

Look, just because its new, doesn't mean it sucks. Why not put national landmarks? Anything is better than pens, cogs, and arrows.

Why are you suddenly going berserk? We want to make universally acceptable neutral images. National landmarks aren't neutral. It doesn't even matter really, it's more of the stats. This isn't RL, where we would be arguing about this kind of crap. This is NS where only the stats really matter. It's not like we're going to be posting about how these symbols are blashphemous.

EDIT: If you want national patriotism, use your domestic/national currency.

This looks interesting. While Neo-Erusea will not adopt the Nuyecomark we will recognize it as legal tender for all debts.

Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

Why are you bumping, er... I mean bumbing?

OOC: Are you trying to make this the NS equivalent of the euro?

OOC: Are you trying to make this the NS equivalent of the euro?

OOC: Sort of, except that this can run along side the national currency of a nation.

Look, just because its new, doesn't mean it sucks. Why not put national landmarks? Anything is better than pens, cogs, and arrows.
A concerned citizen

What, then, about a completely neutral symbol - something like Euro?

Euro symbolizes the half of the world. So, to create a currency for the entire world, we should complete the circle. Then, I suggest to turn the double-lines symbolic of money to symbolize also traces of satellites surrounding our world, to show we are modern; and increase the number of lines to reflect the multitude of nations to adopt it and currencies it unites.

In general, it will look like a double Euro, but more modernist and stylish:

http://www.freewebs.com/vault_10/Nyeco.GIF


I think this will be much better than pens, sickles and other symbols of the epoch which already passed away.

Respectfully,
Edward James Marie-Stuart Robert Concerned.

Clever. I really like that.

We support the images representing the whole world. Generally speaking, objects representing history can be offensive to some.

That looks a little like a coin. Still though, it is a nice symbol.

I like it, but it's far too simple. And coin-like. Also, Siap, how are any of the images from history.

I like it, but it's far too simple. And coin-like. Also, Siap, how are any of the images from history.

We cannot think of one that would offend Siapians, but I am just observing that one person's victory was another persons loss. Just something to consider.

Bump fgt!