NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, first off, Hard Science Fiction setting. Used to be called Sci-Fi until Star Trek came along and started making up words... not important right now.

The point is, we have a several great tools for having a very awesome space based game. I'd like a space based game that simply doesn't break any known laws of physics.

So here is my proposal. We use our NS Stats, combined with http://nstracker.retrogade.com

The nstracker is a great calculator of budgets and general economic status. It even includes your chosen currency.

But what shall we buy now that we know how much money we have and where it is budgeted?

http://www.vanguardrpg.com/vspace.pdf

Those are great rules for spaceships in a hard sci-fi setting. It'll help determine exactly what we need and/or want for trade, exploration, and war.

it comes from http://www.vanguardrpg.com/ in case you are wondering. Only usinf the free .pdf listed above, however.

And that is what I have so far. We have our nations. We have a calculator for specifics. And we have rules for designing any kind of space-ship we may need, thus giving us a great tradegame and wargame.

Naming this NS world after the game, this shall be Vanguard Space. And to differentiate it from physics breaking breaking FT, this is HFT (unless there is already a name for it I missed.)

The name of this continuity shall be V-Space. Tag all related threads with (V-Space)

Official Threads so far:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=515778 For Spaceship Specs.

The Following Nations have joined in:

The Orbos System
Kesshite
Green Noa
Edoniakistanbabweagua
Red Tide2
Hyperspatial Travel
Barkozy
Terror Incognitia

Oh, for all intents and purposes, I'll be serving as "GM" of the game.

I like. Count me in.

If it's hard science fiction, how does it have faster than light drives?

I dont quite understand the stats page, but I can at least help with any tech stuff (inertia dampeners, momentum shift drives, etc). Count me in as long as someone can explain what this is?

If it's hard science fiction, how does it have faster than light drives?

the FTL is a misnomer. It's a "jump". You reach the proper point outside of a starsystem, engage, and are instantly at a corresponding point outside of another star system.

You don't actually move faster than light. You don't actually move at all. The best description for it is yet another variation of the hyperdrive.

I'd like to get in on this one.

I dont quite understand the stats page, but I can at least help with any tech stuff (inertia dampeners, momentum shift drives, etc). Count me in as long as someone can explain what this is?

There will be no inertial dampeners or momentum shift drives. But that fact we have someone who can logically explain them is great.

I am glad to have you on board to help me with the technical bitz of things (we do need to flesh out the otherwise thin 30 page book) and I can answer all of your questions.

There will be no inertial dampeners or momentum shift drives. But that fact we have someone who can logically explain them is great.

I am glad to have you on board to help me with the technical bitz of things (we do need to flesh out the otherwise thin 30 page book) and I can answer all of your questions.

Sure, although what exactly is Hard Science Fiction?

Hm, I'm not sure I like the idea of using the NScalculator. According to that one, I've got no defense budget. Easily fixable through issues, but still a little alarming.

Sure, although what exactly is Hard Science Fiction?

It is what used to be called science fiction. When Jules verne wrote about a submarine back before they existed, it worked like a submarine. When He wrote about the trip to the moon, it was a massive rocket carrying a tiny aluminum pod, just like we did 100 years later.

H.G. Wells, he didn't know too much about mars, nobody did. But the aliens came in mechs with weapons that are todays current fears. He made us fear them before they existed.

They didn't break the known laws of physics. All they wrote about was possible later because they did not make up words like todays science fiction.

Hard Science Fiction basically means "No magic". Soft Science fiction can best be described as "Magic".

Spaceships have weight, they will require fuel, they have no gravity, and everything costs money.

Anymore questions?

Hm, I'm not sure I like the idea of using the NScalculator. According to that one, I've got no defense budget. Easily fixable through issues, but still a little alarming.

Do you have any budget at all? You still have a good sum of money, and the actual details of each budget could mean a lot.

This is where Roleplaying becomes key. How shall you play with your nation's current state? What shall you do, what would your people do, et cetera. A lot of things to consider.

My suggestion, you only have 12% tax but you have a massive welfare budget that most of your population doesn't need... so where does the rest of the money go? I'd buy some orbital picket ships and hire some defenders.

Yeah, easily remedied, but I highlighted it to see what kind of leniancy you'd have towards the calculator. There's a couple of other concerns I'd like to address, to kind of maybe see where you stand. Is this going to be strictly humans? Or will alien races be allowed? If I had a planet, I'd want to have giant ants and other exotic animal life...spice things up, you know? Maybe give my people pointy ears or make them blue-skinned or something. I know the label says Hard Science Fiction, but I hope you don't plan on eliminating the more colorful aspects of the Sci-Fi atmosphere. And I assume we'd all start in our own systems?

Yeah, easily remedied, but I highlighted it to see what kind of leniancy you'd have towards the calculator. There's a couple of other concerns I'd like to address, to kind of maybe see where you stand. Is this going to be strictly humans? Or will alien races be allowed? If I had a planet, I'd want to have giant ants and other exotic animal life...spice things up, you know? Maybe give my people pointy ears or make them blue-skinned or something. I know the label says Hard Science Fiction, but I hope you don't plan on eliminating the more colorful aspects of the Sci-Fi atmosphere. And I assume we'd all start in our own systems?

Good idea to explore your options.

No 'alien' life in the sense that all life originated from earth. Simply having blue skinned, pointy eared humans isn't a huge stretch and perfectly acceptable.

Having an earth-like planet is going to draw a lot of fire. The number of earth like planets is going to be rare, I was thinking of "zero" with the exception of terraforming. And terraforming requires a planet have close to earth's gravity and be just the right distance from the sun during it's entire revolution, thus preventing even terraform planets from being in large numbers.

Barely habitable planets are common, but rare enough where you may see one in every other system. Such as a planet with close to earths gravity, and some oxygen, and lots of water... but just slightly too far away from the sun to even terraform. So it's an ice-planet. And i don't mean arctic condition "Hoth" ice planet. I mean if you find arctic conditions on the planet you can declare that little spot an oasis.

And that is the harsh, terrible environment in which we scrounge for life.

As for starting in our own systems, that really isn't needed. We can do a LOT in one system alone. It might be best to put some of the older nations in seperate systems though, for balance purposes.

Well, you've really caught my attention here. I read through the PDF (skimmed it) and I really like what I see. But your vision is still a little blurry to me. I assume this will take place in the Solar System then? If there are "zero" Earths out there, how will players interact? We can't very well all be our own planets obviously, as there will be a lack of habital ones in this universe. As countries on the same planet then, trying to expand their empires into space? I'm a tad confused...

Well, you've really caught my attention here. I read through the PDF (skimmed it) and I really like what I see. But your vision is still a little blurry to me. I assume this will take place in the Solar System then? If there are "zero" Earths out there, how will players interact? We can't very well all be our own planets obviously, as there will be a lack of habital ones in this universe. As countries on the same planet then, trying to expand their empires into space? I'm a tad confused...

Enclosed environments are important. The more earth like a planet is, the easier it is to build such an environment. On planets close to 1G it could be nothing more then insulated buildings with proper utilities.

Planets that are too light can't have anyone stay on them for prolonged periods of time. You will need habitats with artificial gravity (big spinning space colonies).

Planets that are too heavy, you likely won't send anyone too. People might make short missions, if at all, and machines are likely to do long term work if there is anything of value.

And gas giants are a story all their own. Likely to have decently sized moons orbiting them rather then being interacted with directly. But if you have the funds, there is a small possibility you can build a harvester to siphon gases from the edge of a gas giants atmosphere.

With enclosed environment tech being integral, we can indeed all be on our own planets. Two nations could easily occupy a single world somewhere without any serious problem as well. Maybe even more.

One thing I should probably do is make the "rough map" of what people joining the solar system can expect. it'll have a decent sampling of the planets and moons and some other locations. It'll be from the "initial survey" and what all settlers founding new nations can expect.
Then there will be a "complete map" which has every planet and moon and chunk of rock listed, as well as the details on all the nations.

the FTL is a misnomer. It's a "jump". You reach the proper point outside of a starsystem, engage, and are instantly at a corresponding point outside of another star system.

You don't actually move faster than light. You don't actually move at all. The best description for it is yet another variation of the hyperdrive.

Ahh. Serves me right for not reading the entire thing.

Ahh. Serves me right for not reading the entire thing.

Nah, don't worry about it.

Other interesting side note. Hyperspatial models are mathematically feasible, but the mechanics behind utilizing them are a huge questionmark.

Vanguard answers it in a very hard E=mc squared way.

The drive itself is 75tons plus (total ship weight/30). The reaction mass required to actually make the jump is equal to the ship's total weight. You burn it all in that instant, BOOM and you are at the other star system.

You need the ship's total weight worth of reaction mass to burn every time you initiate that jump.

Gauthic:
"Vanguard answers it in a very hard E=mc squared way.

The drive itself is 75tons plus (total ship weight/30). The reaction mass required to actually make the jump is equal to the ship's total weight. You burn it all in that instant, BOOM and you are at the other star system.

You need the ship's total weight worth of reaction mass to burn every time you initiate that jump."

Just to clarify, you need a constant amount of reaction mass to burn no matter what the distance?

This is pretty cool. Here is something you guys might wanna use when RPing.

http://direpress.bin.sh/tools/world.cgi?motif=SF

It makes a map and a complete list of information, however one can always change it because you dont have to go by DirePress. Just make sure of the imprtant things about a planet (Its not to cool, both atmospherewise and corewise, 30%ish Albedo, oceans, and an atmosphere that is breathable.)

Helps to make world maps. And with my technology I can take those Bitmaps and turn them into this:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/psychicwraith/World3.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/psychicwraith/Bekhaera.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/psychicwraith/Planets/Hyperion.jpg


As for fuel, I do have an alternitive idea that is in theory feasable and may be in production within 50 years...

It is called a Magnetic Induction Ring. What it is is a carosel of magnets in a coil. This halo of magnets spin around inside of the coil, giving off an electrical discharge strong enough to power a space station, ships, even colonies. We made something like this in Physics Lab last week. The technology is feasable so I figured this would be a good idea. And with (from what I read) the ships having no gravity on them, it would be easier for it to rotate in a nigh frictionless space. This is just a little Idea Ive been tossing around in my head.

I also love how they have the Gauss Cannons (Hypervelocity Coilgun). Very nice. If you gys need help with weapons, Im also your man.

Gauthic:
"Vanguard answers it in a very hard E=mc squared way.

The drive itself is 75tons plus (total ship weight/30). The reaction mass required to actually make the jump is equal to the ship's total weight. You burn it all in that instant, BOOM and you are at the other star system.

You need the ship's total weight worth of reaction mass to burn every time you initiate that jump."

Just to clarify, you need a constant amount of reaction mass to burn no matter what the distance?

After re-reading the FTL thing, I see it can be interpreted two ways. One is no fuel, the other is fuel equalling ship mass.

In either case, the jump is the same distance. You can go from one point to the other, and back again. Only between those two points no matter how far apart they are.

I have been planning to place everyone in the same star system, except for very large and powerful nations. The smaller nations competing for one system wouldn't be completely stomped by the massive nation, since they have to pay an additional cost simply to send a ship to another system. This creates a combination of realism and balance.

This is pretty cool. Here is something you guys might wanna use when RPing.

http://direpress.bin.sh/tools/world.cgi?motif=SF

It makes a map and a complete list of information, however one can always change it because you dont have to go by DirePress. Just make sure of the imprtant things about a planet (Its not to cool, both atmospherewise and corewise, 30%ish Albedo, oceans, and an atmosphere that is breathable.)

Helps to make world maps. And with my technology I can take those Bitmaps and turn them into this:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/psychicwraith/World3.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/psychicwraith/Bekhaera.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/psychicwraith/Planets/Hyperion.jpg


As for fuel, I do have an alternitive idea that is in theory feasable and may be in production within 50 years...

It is called a Magnetic Induction Ring. What it is is a carosel of magnets in a coil. This halo of magnets spin around inside of the coil, giving off an electrical discharge strong enough to power a space station, ships, even colonies. We made something like this in Physics Lab last week. The technology is feasable so I figured this would be a good idea. And with (from what I read) the ships having no gravity on them, it would be easier for it to rotate in a nigh frictionless space. This is just a little Idea Ive been tossing around in my head.

I also love how they have the Gauss Cannons (Hypervelocity Coilgun). Very nice. If you gys need help with weapons, Im also your man.

That generator only seems to generate earth like worlds. It's tough getting it to make a lot of the more realistic worlds. But it is a wonderful tool.
If we can get a different one that suits this game, that'd be great.

As for the fuel and energy problem, the fuel used is cheap and easily mass produceable deuterium, a heavier isotope of hydrogen easily made in the magentic induction coils you mentioned. Fusion power is common, and ships travel by burning fuel in a fusion generator.

There are several kinds. Thermal Fusion Rocket, and advanced version of the modern VASMIR engine, in which the fusion generators heat is used to accelerate some other matter (any material will do) and it's explosive ionization creates thrust.

Deuterium Fusion Plasma, in which the fusion material of deuterium is the fuel. Instead of it simply power generation, its fusion is used as the thrust.

Binary Plasma Fusions. Deuterium and Helium 3 are fused togethor, and in a similar fashion as above are thrown out the back as reaction mass and the fusion is used as thrust.

As for the offer to help develop weapons, the missile choices are limited, and the two solid shell weapons are just those two solid shell weapons. A few more missiles and guns would be great.

I am all for it.

That generator only seems to generate earth like worlds. It's tough getting it to make a lot of the more realistic worlds. But it is a wonderful tool.
If we can get a different one that suits this game, that'd be great.

As for the fuel and energy problem, the fuel used is cheap and easily mass produceable deuterium, a heavier isotope of hydrogen easily made in the magentic induction coils you mentioned. Fusion power is common, and ships travel by burning fuel in a fusion generator.

There are several kinds. Thermal Fusion Rocket, and advanced version of the modern VASMIR engine, in which the fusion generators heat is used to accelerate some other matter (any material will do) and it's explosive ionization creates thrust.

Deuterium Fusion Plasma, in which the fusion material of deuterium is the fuel. Instead of it simply power generation, its fusion is used as the thrust.

Binary Plasma Fusions. Deuterium and Helium 3 are fused togethor, and in a similar fashion as above are thrown out the back as reaction mass and the fusion is used as thrust.

As for the offer to help develop weapons, the missile choices are limited, and the two solid shell weapons are just those two solid shell weapons. A few more missiles and guns would be great.

You can change the option to create volcanic, Martian, barren, and Ice world. You just have to play around with it a bit.

I am all for it.

I am updating the front page to list current nations.

Let's start mapping out the star system. I want a nice, big, white, F Type star (bigger and hotter then the sun, comfortable planets will orbit farther away, more gravity spread out and more energy means more planets to orbit it.)

Initially we need three worlds for the inner planets, three gas giants (one similar to Juptier, one similar to Saturn, and one similar to neptune or uranus), an inner asteroid belt and an outer asteroid belt (one between "mars and jupiter" and one on the outskirts as a "Kuiper Belt"). The belts only need some major asteroids (as big as countries) marked here and there.

With all those major things marked, there needs to be room for a total of 12 official planets, 6 inner and 6 outer, with the inner belt seperating them. The bigger, warmer sun has more planetary space.

It'd be nice to throw in two or three comets currently on a 50 year trip through the system as well.

So what do you, the GM, want from the interested parties? You want us to maybe throw some planet name ideas out there, or maybe assign some characteristics to some of the 12 planets? I'm itching to participate, but I'd like to know what you're looking for from us.

So what do you, the GM, want from the interested parties? You want us to maybe throw some planet name ideas out there, or maybe assign some characteristics to some of the 12 planets? I'm itching to participate, but I'd like to know what you're looking for from us.

Contribute as much as you'd like. I figure me and Edoniakistanbabweagua will do the map.

If no one else wants to do anything, the fact you are still wanting to play encourages me to do the whole map myself.

One thing some people will need to do is design ships. The more people designing more ships, the better.

Anything else anyone else can think of that they would like to contribute?

Contribute as much as you'd like. I figure me and Edoniakistanbabweagua will do the map.

If no one else wants to do anything, the fact you are still wanting to play encourages me to do the whole map myself.

One thing some people will need to do is design ships. The more people designing more ships, the better.

Anything else anyone else can think of that they would like to contribute?

Weapons definately (Railguns, Coilguns, and my patented(ish) Iota Mass Cascade Battery). Ship tech too (I know no FTL or Momentum Shift Drives, but simple things like Active Camouflage and Fission Reactors). I can get the planets up to coincide with the map. First I need to fix a small bug in the program. Something to do with two programs that don't have anytihng to do with each other yet are making 3D studio crash...damn Microsoft...

Weapons definately (Railguns, Coilguns, and my patented(ish) Iota Mass Cascade Battery). Ship tech too (I know no FTL or Momentum Shift Drives, but simple things like Active Camouflage and Fission Reactors). I can get the planets up to coincide with the map. First I need to fix a small bug in the program. Something to do with two programs that don't have anytihng to do with each other yet are making 3D studio crash...damn Microsoft...

Aye, nothing can outdo the accuracy and range of lasers in space, but chunks of metal at the right speeds are devestating, even if they only work at close range.

Active Camoflague is useless in space. Fission reactors are very, very outdated. The reason for both is the fusion reactor. It essentially means a small star is in your engine, which transmits on every frequency like a beacon. Hiding in space is hard, and there is, unfortunately, no decent stealth technology at this time.

As for the system being made, glad you are on it. I told you a bit of what we needed, what are your thoughts?

This idea you guys are running with interests me a great deal, as I've been looking for an FTRP setting that isn't all death rays and teleporters. I have some questions regarding the feel of the area of space. What I mean is, I have Terran Tribes (my primary nation @ 1.18 billion peeps) and a smaller nation (23million), which would you do you think would be better for a rp like this?

As to ship designing and tech ideas, there are a number of hard and soft sci-fi universes we could barrow from (BattleTech's spaceships come to mind). I'd be happy to help as much as I can. Have you considered the less space orientated techs? Genetics, medical, etc?

I'll be happy to join if you'll have me.


P.s.: As to ship stealth, I'm thinking of something along the lines of a diesel submarine with a fusion reactor and capacitors in place of diesel engines and batteries. Coatings of emotion shielding materials and a shell build to resemble an asteroid or space junk may help. Just a thought.

This idea you guys are running with interests me a great deal, as I've been looking for an FTRP setting that isn't all death rays and teleporters. I have some questions regarding the feel of the area of space. What I mean is, I have Terran Tribes (my primary nation @ 1.18 billion peeps) and a smaller nation (23million), which would you do you think would be better for a rp like this?

As to ship designing and tech ideas, there are a number of hard and soft sci-fi universes we could barrow from (BattleTech's spaceships come to mind). I'd be happy to help as much as I can. Have you considered the less space orientated techs? Genetics, medical, etc?

I'll be happy to join if you'll have me.


P.s.: As to ship stealth, I'm thinking of something along the lines of a diesel submarine with a fusion reactor and capacitors in place of diesel engines and batteries. Coatings of emotion shielding materials and a shell build to resemble an asteroid or space junk may help. Just a thought.

To adress your issues one by one. It would be best if you use just one nation. Most of the smaller nations are going to the same system. The super-nations are going to different systems. Red Tide, Ed, and your 1 Billion nation are likely to all be in one system or two or three.

As for tech, most of it is outlined in the .pdf. The less space oriented techs such as habitats and the differing genetics have been mentioned.

Stealth has also been handled by the .pdf.

Thank you for your interest. If you join, pick a nation and I'll ad you to the list. Glad to have you aboard.

<< OOC: Random question from the visitors gallery here. I'm assuming this RP takes place within, say 1-2 generations of the present day? I only ask based on the technology level that you've been discussing, which does seem not unlike 2001: A Space Odyssey, 2010: Odyssey Two, and 2064 (all of them by Sir Arthur C. Clarke; I only leave out the fourth book in the series because I believe the fuel issue has been solved by that point and replaced with more advanced technology, along with other improvements on basic technology from the previous books). >>

<< OOC: Random question from the visitors gallery here. I'm assuming this RP takes place within, say 1-2 generations of the present day? I only ask based on the technology level that you've been discussing, which does seem not unlike 2001: A Space Odyssey, 2010: Odyssey Two, and 2064 (all of them by Sir Arthur C. Clarke; I only leave out the fourth book in the series because I believe the fuel issue has been solved by that point and replaced with more advanced technology, along with other improvements on basic technology from the previous books). >>

Nah. Takes place much, much farther in the future. We do sound like we are describing similar tech to the books you mentioned, but the speeds attainable by these ships are much faster. 1 AU/day is possible by the most powerful engines. In the odyssey books, the power was more conventional and took months to get from planet to planet. Vanguard has it down to weeks, and sometimes days.

Many other differences as well.

For more info, you can consult the .pdf.

Aye, nothing can outdo the accuracy and range of lasers in space, but chunks of metal at the right speeds are devestating, even if they only work at close range.

Active Camoflague is useless in space. Fission reactors are very, very outdated. The reason for both is the fusion reactor. It essentially means a small star is in your engine, which transmits on every frequency like a beacon. Hiding in space is hard, and there is, unfortunately, no decent stealth technology at this time.

As for the system being made, glad you are on it. I told you a bit of what we needed, what are your thoughts?

Why did I write fission!?! Damn typo...

As for Active Camouflague, its a little more than just being invisible (Thats Optic Camouflage). It also a way to dampen the electromagnetic output of your ship from sensors and a way to mask the radiation entrails from the drive.

As for thoughts, Im just going to compile real weapons that are feasable within the next two centuries.

Why did I write fission!?! Damn typo...

As for Active Camouflague, its a little more than just being invisible (Thats Optic Camouflage). It also a way to dampen the electromagnetic output of your ship from sensors and a way to mask the radiation entrails from the drive.

As for thoughts, Im just going to compile real weapons that are feasable within the next two centuries.

Aye, and for what they have of stealth in the game already, it only makes you difficult to see when your engines are off. Without air and infrequent interference, everything is much, much more visible to sensors. Even 1800 telescopes were spotting miniscule chunks of debris in the asteroid belt. Add a little analog and digital imaging tech, refine the materials with modern industry, put in some frequency sorting software, and anybody can spot anything in the solar system if you give them some time.

Can't wait to see what you come up with for the weapons.

Quick question. What kinds of weaponary would be allowed in?

Quick question. What kinds of weaponary would be allowed in?

Just don't break the known laws of physics, don't venture too far into speculation. Other then those general guidelines I won't know what is really wrong with a weapon until you present it.

There may in fact be a lot of weapons you suggest that are technically present, but simply suck in space combat. Or any combination of things wrong/right with the weapon. I just won't know until you tell me.

The fact you are suggesting things considered feasible within 200 years gives me a good feeling, though.

Most of the weaponary would be categorized under these categories:

Ultraweapon: A powerful weapon that could literally annihalate a single ship.
Power Weapon: Moderately powerful
Average Weapon: used the most usually due to short loading times.

Ok here is Weapon Number One.

Many of these weapons that I will be sending in will be particle weapons, firing a stream of atomic and subatomic particles. A special note is that some of these weapons will be usable in space (or even better) while others will more than likely be terretrial based

The first on this list is a classic. It is the Tesla Flux Battery (named after Nikola Tesla for claiming to have made a particle cannon), more commonly known as an Ionic Particle Cannon. This fires ionically charged subatomic particles at the enemy ships, causing an incredible amount of damage and can disrupt electric devices upon the ship and shields. The two main problems with this cannon are overloading and the amount of energy used up. Smaller issues would be loading time and overheating.

Due to the power, I would classify this between an Ultraweapon and a Power Weapon. Id lean to a Power Weapon.

Ill get some more up soon.

Most of the weaponary would be categorized under these categories:

Ultraweapon: A powerful weapon that could literally annihalate a single ship.
Power Weapon: Moderately powerful
Average Weapon: used the most usually due to short loading times.

Ok here is Weapon Number One.

Many of these weapons that I will be sending in will be particle weapons, firing a stream of atomic and subatomic particles. A special note is that some of these weapons will be usable in space (or even better) while others will more than likely be terretrial based

The first on this list is a classic. It is the Tesla Flux Battery (named after Nikola Tesla for claiming to have made a particle cannon), more commonly known as an Ionic Particle Cannon. This fires ionically charged subatomic particles at the enemy ships, causing an incredible amount of damage and can disrupt electric devices upon the ship and shields. The two main problems with this cannon are overloading and the amount of energy used up. Smaller issues would be loading time and overheating.

Due to the power, I would classify this between an Ultraweapon and a Power Weapon. Id lean to a Power Weapon.

Ill get some more up soon.


The tesla battery is pretty much the Hypervelocity coil gun already in the game.

The tesla battery is pretty much the Hypervelocity coil gun already in the game.

Not exactly. The HVCG fires an actual metallic projectile (liquid in this case which is interesting) at a ship. The Tesla Battery fires a stream of ionically charged subatomic particles at a ship, thus making it a "laser" (techinally not a laser but its for lack of a better word).

Btw, in this Role Playing game I do have one question? Are there only humans in this game or are there other sentient lifeforms that one can play as?

Okay, I think I'll jump in with my 1billion nation (Terran Tribes). I really hadn't scanned over the info you posted when I first replied to this thread, but now that I have it answers a lot of questions. I'll start trying to design ships according to the Vanguard specs and rules.

If Ed doesn't mind I think I might also tread on his turf and come up with some new weapons. One that comes to mind is a kinetic kill vehicle, a cross between a drone, a missile, and a HVCG. It's pretty much a crewless smallcraft with a powerful engine, decent internal structure, enough armor to survive limited defensive fire, and a very dense penetrator to make hash of a capital ship.

Pros:
Longer range then missiles
better guidance and tracking abilities then missiles
massive damage inflicted with successful impact (Ultraweapon)
If destroyed, penetrator and wreckage will continue flying with same speed and damage potential as before destruction.
Cons:
Expensive
Only damage inflicted is directly controlled by velocity obtained.
Can only be mounted on appropriately large hard points, not internally.
Large size makes it an easier target against defensive fire.
Need to physically impact target reduces accuracy.

I think that it can be worked out with the current construction rules. What do you think?

Okay, I think I'll jump in with my 1billion nation (Terran Tribes). I really hadn't scanned over the info you posted when I first replied to this thread, but now that I have it answers a lot of questions. I'll start trying to design ships according to the Vanguard specs and rules.

If Ed doesn't mind I think I might also tread on his turf and come up with some new weapons. One that comes to mind is a kinetic kill vehicle, a cross between a drone, a missile, and a HVCG. It's pretty much a crewless smallcraft with a powerful engine, decent internal structure, enough armor to survive limited defensive fire, and a very dense penetrator to make hash of a capital ship.

Pros:
Longer range then missiles
better guidance and tracking abilities then missiles
massive damage inflicted with successful impact (Ultraweapon)
If destroyed, penetrator and wreckage will continue flying with same speed and damage potential as before destruction.
Cons:
Expensive
Only damage inflicted is directly controlled by velocity obtained.
Can only be mounted on appropriately large hard points, not internally.
Large size makes it an easier target against defensive fire.
Need to physically impact target reduces accuracy.

I think that it can be worked out with the current construction rules. What do you think?

I dont mind. As for the Kinetic Kill Vehicle...seems like a very expensive missle to be honest.

Not exactly. The HVCG fires an actual metallic projectile (liquid in this case which is interesting) at a ship. The Tesla Battery fires a stream of ionically charged subatomic particles at a ship, thus making it a "laser" (techinally not a laser but its for lack of a better word).

Btw, in this Role Playing game I do have one question? Are there only humans in this game or are there other sentient lifeforms that one can play as?

The HVCG fires what begins as a solid shell. Accelerated at near light speeds, molecular and atomic cohesion break down, causing the metal to liquify. Range is also limited because the material keeps breaking down, ruining it beyond a few hundred kilometers.

The Tesla Battery as you described would essentially be the same thing, but simply accelerating different particles a different way. It would achieve the same, devestating, short range, ship killing effect.

Although... other then method and particular stuff it fires, would there be other differences between the Tesla Battery and the HVCG?

As for races, human and human variant only for this setting. All life originates from earth, effectively.

The HVCG fires what begins as a solid shell. Accelerated at near light speeds, molecular and atomic cohesion break down, causing the metal to liquify. Range is also limited because the material keeps breaking down, ruining it beyond a few hundred kilometers.

The Tesla Battery as you described would essentially be the same thing, but simply accelerating different particles a different way. It would achieve the same, devestating, short range, ship killing effect.

Although... other then method and particular stuff it fires, would there be other differences between the Tesla Battery and the HVCG?

As for races, human and human variant only for this setting. All life originates from earth, effectively.

Essentially it is the Tesla's power, speed (I believe the Tesla is 3 times as fast), and ability to knock out electrical devices that make it different.

EDIT: Man what is wrong with me? It isnt 3 times as fast. While the HVCG (Ill call it the Gauss Cannon for now) Projectile goes 1,000 km/s, the Tesla Cannon's goes at (about) 300 000 km/s, making the Tesla particle projectile 300 times more powerful. I blame Diff Equations for ruining my basic math skills.

Okay, I think I'll jump in with my 1billion nation (Terran Tribes). I really hadn't scanned over the info you posted when I first replied to this thread, but now that I have it answers a lot of questions. I'll start trying to design ships according to the Vanguard specs and rules.

If Ed doesn't mind I think I might also tread on his turf and come up with some new weapons. One that comes to mind is a kinetic kill vehicle, a cross between a drone, a missile, and a HVCG. It's pretty much a crewless smallcraft with a powerful engine, decent internal structure, enough armor to survive limited defensive fire, and a very dense penetrator to make hash of a capital ship.

Pros:
Longer range then missiles
better guidance and tracking abilities then missiles
massive damage inflicted with successful impact (Ultraweapon)
If destroyed, penetrator and wreckage will continue flying with same speed and damage potential as before destruction.
Cons:
Expensive
Only damage inflicted is directly controlled by velocity obtained.
Can only be mounted on appropriately large hard points, not internally.
Large size makes it an easier target against defensive fire.
Need to physically impact target reduces accuracy.

I think that it can be worked out with the current construction rules. What do you think?

Welcome aboard. You and Ed are likely to go to the same star system... which means I need to make two, damn.

As for the weapon you mention. Yeah, that's pretty much an engine wearing armor and nothing more. The only problem is that it might not be quite as devestating as a nuke, which is more likely to hit as it covers an area with it's blast.
But as the rules are set up, there is nothing stopping you from building them anyway.

Essentially it is the Tesla's power, speed (I believe the Tesla is 3 times as fast), and ability to knock out electrical devices that make it different.

You can't really have a muzzle velocity greater then the HVCG, unless you have a laser.
If you mean a higher rate of fire, that makes a little more sense.
The Tesla Battery may have to tap into ship fuel for it's fire power.

As for the EMP effects, there is currently no EMP rules for Vanguard. Any suggestions?

You can't really have a muzzle velocity greater then the HVCG, unless you have a laser.
If you mean a higher rate of fire, that makes a little more sense.
The Tesla Battery may have to tap into ship fuel for it's fire power.

As for the EMP effects, there is currently no EMP rules for Vanguard. Any suggestions?

I edited my post due to mathematical errors. The Tesla Battery is technically a laser for all RP purposes (scientifcally it is classified as a particle weapon) It may have a lower rate of fire due to the power and energy used by it. Basically, it is an Ion Cannon, so just classify it under laser.

I edited my post due to mathematical errors. The Tesla Battery is technically a laser for all RP purposes (scientifcally it is classified as a particle weapon) It may have a lower rate of fire due to the power and energy used by it. Basically, it is an Ion Cannon, so just classify it under laser.

Ok, ya know what, no more new weapon ideas...

We need some rules for EMP. But more importantly, we need system maps. Anyone who can, contact me on AIM. If you can't, your thoughts and help on the map are welcome here in this thread.

I'm in. All 6 or so billion of me. ^_^

The rules for constructing spaceships are quite interesting, too. Does anyone mind if I start designing a few now?

I'm in. All 6 or so billion of me. ^_^

The rules for constructing spaceships are quite interesting, too. Does anyone mind if I start designing a few now?

Ok. 6 Billion... wow.

Go ahead and design ships and send them my way. :D

We're creating our own nations, no, in this HFT? Much in the same way that we RP our own nations in standard FT?

Ok, ya know what, no more new weapon ideas...

Why not?

We need some rules for EMP. But more importantly, we need system maps. Anyone who can, contact me on AIM. If you can't, your thoughts and help on the map are welcome here in this thread.

sure i can do it some planet models this weekend.

Count me interested.

We're creating our own nations, no, in this HFT? Much in the same way that we RP our own nations in standard FT?

It's all explained in the first post. We do indeed play our Nation from NationStates. Using the NSTracker we have hard numbers to work with for our economies. Combine that with the Vanguard rules, we have stuff to spend our money on.

And that's the whole thing. I am making a map now.

Why not?


sure i can do it some planet models this weekend.

To the first question. No more new ones for now. Really, we have enough of the common weapons and it's about time we got this show on the road. We can always make new ones later.

Thank you for helping me with the planet models.

Count me interested.

Thou art added.

To the first question. No more new ones for now. Really, we have enough of the common weapons and it's about time we got this show on the road. We can always make new ones later.

Thank you for helping me with the planet models.

no prob. Sometime this week just send me the Bitmaps from the Dire Press website. I have the bitmaps for different Gas Giants and moons so I can handle gas giants.

The fledgling colony of Seti Prime would like to be included in this endevour, hopefully the big guys don't plow us over.

Well if you wish, you may join with my colony on my er...planet...once I get a name for it. Im mostly going to be doing Ship Research and Exploration so you'll be safe with the Ed-man.

O and weapons research...hehe can't help myself...

The fledgling colony of Seti Prime would like to be included in this endevour, hopefully the big guys don't plow us over.

This is really just a prelim, to see if my design principles are sound, and if what I'm doing is correct. If not, correct me, eh?

Sword of the Queen-class cruiser

Ship Details
Gross Ship Mass: 19,101 tons
FTL Drive: 675 tons
FTL Drive Cost: $1,350,000
High-Performance Binary Plasma Drive: 3600 tons (1 g)
HP Binary Plasma Drive Cost: $1,080,000,000
Fuel Mass: 9,000 tons (Max speed 1.5 AU/day)
Fuel Tanks: 720 tons
Fuel Tank Cost: $360,000
Ship Structure: 1260 tons
Ship Structure Cost: $12,600,000
Communication Suites: 1 ton (10 advanced suites)
Comm Suites Cost: $500,000
Sensor Equipment: 5 tons (5 Advanced Sensor Suites)
Sensor Cost: $500,000
Weapon Targeting Unit: 250 tons
Cost: $16 billion

Weaponry:
Small Laser - 2: $4,000,000; 100 tons
Large Laser - 1: $115,000,000; 400 tons
Very Large Laser - 1: $600,000,000; 1600 tons
Scattergun - 1: $6,000,000; 300 tons

Crew Size: 46
Minimal Infirmary: 5 tons, $15,000
3 small airlocks: 3 tons, $30,000

5 Advanced 10-person lifeboats; 25 tons, $500,000

RMD Factor: 0.5
Cargo Hold: 40 tons
Cargo Handling: 1 ton; $100

Crew:
1 Aerospace Engineer
1 Computer Technician
4 Electronics Technicians
3 Spaceship Drive Technicians
1 FTL Drive Technician
10 Standard Technicians
2 Life-Support Technicians
1 Captain
8 Combat Crew
15 Assorted Nonessential Crew

160 tons of 3rd-class crew quarters; $1,600,000

1000 tons of advanced armor: 1500 Armor Points, $2,000,000

- - - - - -
Damage Index: 1510
Construction Time: 100 days
Total Cost: $153 billion
Gross Ship Mass: 19,101 tons

This is really just a prelim, to see if my design principles are sound, and if what I'm doing is correct. If not, correct me, eh?

Sword of the Queen-class cruiser

Ship Details
Gross Ship Mass: 19,101 tons
FTL Drive: 675 tons
FTL Drive Cost: $1,350,000
High-Performance Binary Plasma Drive: 3600 tons (1 g)
HP Binary Plasma Drive Cost: $1,080,000,000
Fuel Mass: 9,000 tons (Max speed 1.5 AU/day)
Fuel Tanks: 720 tons
Fuel Tank Cost: $360,000
Ship Structure: 1260 tons
Ship Structure Cost: $12,600,000
Communication Suites: 1 ton (10 advanced suites)
Comm Suites Cost: $500,000
Sensor Equipment: 5 tons (5 Advanced Sensor Suites)
Sensor Cost: $500,000
Weapon Targeting Unit: 250 tons
Cost: $16 billion

Weaponry:
Small Laser - 2: $4,000,000; 100 tons
Large Laser - 1: $115,000,000; 400 tons
Very Large Laser - 1: $600,000,000; 1600 tons
Scattergun - 1: $6,000,000; 300 tons

Crew Size: 46
Minimal Infirmary: 5 tons, $15,000
3 small airlocks: 3 tons, $30,000

5 Advanced 10-person lifeboats; 25 tons, $500,000

RMD Factor: 0.5
Cargo Hold: 40 tons
Cargo Handling: 1 ton; $100

Crew:
1 Aerospace Engineer
1 Computer Technician
4 Electronics Technicians
3 Spaceship Drive Technicians
1 FTL Drive Technician
10 Standard Technicians
2 Life-Support Technicians
1 Captain
8 Combat Crew
15 Assorted Nonessential Crew

160 tons of 3rd-class crew quarters; $1,600,000

1000 tons of advanced armor: 1500 Armor Points, $2,000,000

- - - - - -
Damage Index: 1510
Construction Time: 100 days
Total Cost: $153 billion
Gross Ship Mass: 19,101 tons

Ability to annhihilate your foes: Priceless

Just wondering, how will we be playing this, Dice rolls and all...

I assumed we'd just RP the ships, NS-style - and just use the stats to determine how many we can purchase for our nation. Dice rolling would be incredibly slow and boring.

Good call.

For my RP I will mostly be an R&D type colony, creating new technologies and ships and selling them to different factions for exploration purposes. If I do make anything new later on (Like the Tesla Battery) I may think up some fair and good rules for it, but until I can understand the game better, Ill stick with just making ship upgrades.

And speaking of confusion, I really am lost in terms of making an actual ship, stats and all.

I think I'll be a major world, which serves as a trade hub, centre of civilizations, and whatnot. An independent world in its own right, maintaining a fairly formidable navy.

I think I'll be a major world, which serves as a trade hub, centre of civilizations, and whatnot. An independent world in its own right, maintaining a fairly formidable navy.

cool. who knows? you could probably be a client :)

In any case, if Gauthic's ok with it, I'll go write up details on my nation now. I'm thinking a near-Terran world, terraformed, for the most part, and livable without special equipment, although not suited to human life as Earth was by millions of years of evolution.

I think I'll wait for Gauthic and co to create the systems before deciding the exacts of my nation. I think it'd be more interesting that way.

Quick question, the ships we make, do we post them in this thread or are we putting them someplace else? I've already made one that I think is within the rules.

Seti Prime is in.

I am going to be seperating the massive nations from the not massive nations. Massive Nations go in one star system, not massive nations go in the other. Going with the rule that FTL jumps require fuel equal to the ship's total mass, that way massive nations are kept at arms distance from the other nations. Interaction will still be possible.

Hyperspatial Travel, your cruiser design is approved. As for ship designs I will be making a seperate thread for that. There will be a "Territory Thread" with all the maps, and a "Tech Thread" with all the tech. Please wait for me to make them. Until then, all discussion is here.

Dice rolling and actual crew stats will be handled by me. The rules for combat are laid out, and with myself present I can determine the results for both sides.
Getting crowded on actual space, so not too many new players are going to be able to join before I close the joining process.

And that is the current standing. Thoughts and questions?

Reading through the rules, it seems that wormholes require no fuel. But I don't think that's really relevent, in any case. Just consider this.

To travel 1.5 AU, in, say a day, half of the ship's mass needs to be reaction mass. Now, let's put me over in a system of my own now, and assuming I'm based 1 AU away from my sun.

Neptune, however, is 30 AU out. Assuming that wormholes are at the very edges of systems, I'm going to need to travel, on average, 30 AU to get to another system. Now, let's assume I'm invading you. You're on your own planet 1 AU away from your sun, in another system.

So, my ships need to travel for 20 days to reach my wormhole, then another 20 to get to your world. This is assuming the optimal drive, and that half of my ship's mass is reaction mass. Now, ships like this are exceedingly expensive, and, thus, smaller nations can afford tin-and-bucket engines, and just sit their ships out there, with as many guns as they can stuff onto them.

I also have to feed my crew, repair my ships.. the list goes on. But if you intend to make the rule 1/2 reaction mass for wormholes, it means you'd have to carry your ship's mass in fuel to get up to speed, and then sacrifice another, equal amount, to traverse the wormhole. And, then, of course, you need to slow down. So you'll end up carrying three lots of fuel, because you need that much just to reach another planet.

Which is kinda, well, silly. As it stands, the system is just fine. Using reaction mass to traverse a wormhole also opens up all sorts of sciencey questions, like "where in all heck did that mass go?, and "Why does something that's probably a tear, or bend in space-time require me to sacrifice mass to get through? Why does it take the fuel? Why doesn't it eat the ship?".

..and, seriously. We're all playing nations. I'd much rather if we were allowed to RP combat, NS-style, but, if a disagreement arose, call you in as an arbitrator. Trying to play dice games on the internet is hard. Trying to play them like you're suggesting will kill what you've got before it even starts.

Reading through the rules, it seems that wormholes require no fuel. But I don't think that's really relevent, in any case. Just consider this.

To travel 1.5 AU, in, say a day, half of the ship's mass needs to be reaction mass. Now, let's put me over in a system of my own now, and assuming I'm based 1 AU away from my sun.

Neptune, however, is 30 AU out. Assuming that wormholes are at the very edges of systems, I'm going to need to travel, on average, 30 AU to get to another system. Now, let's assume I'm invading you. You're on your own planet 1 AU away from your sun, in another system.

So, my ships need to travel for 20 days to reach my wormhole, then another 20 to get to your world. This is assuming the optimal drive, and that half of my ship's mass is reaction mass. Now, ships like this are exceedingly expensive, and, thus, smaller nations can afford tin-and-bucket engines, and just sit their ships out there, with as many guns as they can stuff onto them.

I also have to feed my crew, repair my ships.. the list goes on. But if you intend to make the rule 1/2 reaction mass for wormholes, it means you'd have to carry your ship's mass in fuel to get up to speed, and then sacrifice another, equal amount, to traverse the wormhole. And, then, of course, you need to slow down. So you'll end up carrying three lots of fuel, because you need that much just to reach another planet.

Which is kinda, well, silly. As it stands, the system is just fine. Using reaction mass to traverse a wormhole also opens up all sorts of sciencey questions, like "where in all heck did that mass go?, and "Why does something that's probably a tear, or bend in space-time require me to sacrifice mass to get through? Why does it take the fuel? Why doesn't it eat the ship?".

..and, seriously. We're all playing nations. I'd much rather if we were allowed to RP combat, NS-style, but, if a disagreement arose, call you in as an arbitrator. Trying to play dice games on the internet is hard. Trying to play them like you're suggesting will kill what you've got before it even starts.

That sounds reasonable, but it'd be easier for a large nation based on a distant gas giant to attack smaller nations on another distant gas giant. Instead of a 20 day trip, we are speaking of 5 or ten days. Establishing footholds on the resource rich edges of systems would be easy if the jump drives simply jumped. The large nations would have a direct tap to the other systems.

Now, if going back and forth required one extra obstacle, we eliminate the ability. I am open to discussing this further.

Also, read the entire thread before posting, you mention things I stated in this thread.

As for the dice vs NS-style, all I know of NS-Style is that the target RPs the hit for themselves. Can you tell me more?

Now, if going back and forth required one extra obstacle, we eliminate the ability. I am open to discussing this further.

Or, I get a fleet of tankers, and bring them along. Boom. Problem solved. It's not a difficult obstacle to overcome, in order to conquer a world. To put it quite simply, if someone who's five billion fights someone who's five hundred million, they don't have much of a chance to begin with. But, then again, most people of five billion plus tend to have the presence of mind to play fairly, and not run around wrecking everyone else's fun.

My only problem with this is that it requires a lot more math - instead of 50% reaction mass, you have to think of firstly how much reaction mass you'll need to push the ship to the wormhole, the 50% you need upon entering, and then work out how much you'll have left for the return journey. It's hardly convinient.

Also, read the entire thread before posting, you mention things I stated in this thread.

If you'd care to elaborate, I'd most gladly address your point. But a vague and nigh-meaningless statement like that doesn't inform me of anything - not what it was you said at the start of the thread, nor the remarks of mine that were invalidated, to boot.

As for the dice vs NS-style, all I know of NS-Style is that the target RPs the hit for themselves. Can you tell me more?

Essentially, yes. I prefer to think that the system is founded on trust and respect - you can't determine someone else's damage, and nor can they determine yours. Thus, if you want them to take damage, you'll take damage yourself. It's a fairly simple system, based on reciprocal action, and it relies on fairly good relations between the two RPers, and, often, the reciprocating ignores from the rest of the community should someone flagrantly violate the rules (for instance, refuse to take any damage for any reason).

Figuring out combat each and every time, in a scenario where there are potentially.. well, in my case, I have a defense budget of around $50 trillion. I just wrote up a cutter design, which costs around $25 million.

So I could potentially be running around with upwards of two million ships. If they got into combat with another fleet that size... imagine two million dice rolls. That's not something you want to get into. (Although, of course, bankrupting myself to build a massive fleet isn't really where I'm heading with this). So, yeah.

Adopting pure dice-rolling and rules removes part of the fun, requires people to be online at the same time, and makes everyone overly dependent on you. It's not a recipe for a successful RP. On the other hand, if you make the rules a last resort, for when people can't agree with one another, people will generally sort things out by themselves just fine.

Or, I get a fleet of tankers, and bring them along. Boom. Problem solved. It's not a difficult obstacle to overcome, in order to conquer a world. To put it quite simply, if someone who's five billion fights someone who's five hundred million, they don't have much of a chance to begin with. But, then again, most people of five billion plus tend to have the presence of mind to play fairly, and not run around wrecking everyone else's fun.

My only problem with this is that it requires a lot more math - instead of 50% reaction mass, you have to think of firstly how much reaction mass you'll need to push the ship to the wormhole, the 50% you need upon entering, and then work out how much you'll have left for the return journey. It's hardly convinient.



If you'd care to elaborate, I'd most gladly address your point. But a vague and nigh-meaningless statement like that doesn't inform me of anything - not what it was you said at the start of the thread, nor the remarks of mine that were invalidated, to boot.



Essentially, yes. I prefer to think that the system is founded on trust and respect - you can't determine someone else's damage, and nor can they determine yours. Thus, if you want them to take damage, you'll take damage yourself. It's a fairly simple system, based on reciprocal action, and it relies on fairly good relations between the two RPers, and, often, the reciprocating ignores from the rest of the community should someone flagrantly violate the rules (for instance, refuse to take any damage for any reason).

Figuring out combat each and every time, in a scenario where there are potentially.. well, in my case, I have a defense budget of around $50 trillion. I just wrote up a cutter design, which costs around $25 million.

So I could potentially be running around with upwards of two million ships. If they got into combat with another fleet that size... imagine two million dice rolls. That's not something you want to get into. (Although, of course, bankrupting myself to build a massive fleet isn't really where I'm heading with this). So, yeah.

Adopting pure dice-rolling and rules removes part of the fun, requires people to be online at the same time, and makes everyone overly dependent on you. It's not a recipe for a successful RP. On the other hand, if you make the rules a last resort, for when people can't agree with one another, people will generally sort things out by themselves just fine.

You outline a solution to the obstacle. Doubling or tripling the cost with a tanker fleet. That is the obstacle I want.
And you speak of the inconvenience of the obstacle... well, yes. It is an obstacle. It is meant to be inconvenient.

As for asking you to read the whole thread... read the whole thread. There is nothing meaningless or argumentive about that. Please read the whole thread. It'll be easier to speak with someone if you find they answered your questions already.
I don't want this to be an argument. I really would like to find the easiest solution. The only way to find the easiest solution is to weigh out all the possibilities. Please continue to be reasonable with me.

Next, there wouldn't be two million dice rolls. There would be 5 to ten for each combat phase. And both parties need not be online, this is already play by post. You post your actions for the combat phase, I post results, and if this is a meeting engagement and the initial combat phase did not resolve it then we repeat the process.
Knowing that's how the battles would play out, how does it sound now?

I have read the entire thread. And, to be honest, it's the added OOC obstacle that annoys me the most - it may add a minor hiccup ICly, but it certainly won't stop anyone from committing a full-on invasion. But the extra math does nothing but annoy.


Next, there wouldn't be two million dice rolls. There would be 5 to ten for each combat phase. And both parties need not be online, this is already play by post. You post your actions for the combat phase, I post results, and if this is a meeting engagement and the initial combat phase did not resolve it then we repeat the process.
Knowing that's how the battles would play out, how does it sound now?

Really, really bad. If I'm online with another player, we can accomplish ten or twenty posts within the space of an hour. Requiring you to work everything out means that three people need to be online to gain that same efficiency rate - and, otherwise, the likelihood of one person being away is increased, and cripples the game, to boot.

I've played various dice games, most of them D20-based, online, for some time. D&D, for instance, works only when everyone's online. But the problem here is that you're placing a crippling step in front of everyone's ability to play.

I like this idea of designing ships according to a set of rules - it's fun, it allows people to compare ships with something in common, so relative 'power' values for each ship can be established, and using hard science means that no-one walks in with a handwavium powered maser, and destroys everyone else.

But forcing everyone to capitulate to dice rolls, although good around a table, is absolutely horrible in a situation online. I understand how these things work - and they rarely, rarely do.

Ok, here is a rough map. Star (white dot in center), 10 planetary orbits (white rings), one asteroid belt (brown ring), and two comets passing through (blue curves).

Pretty sure I screwed up the scale of the system. So, we aren't using it. But it let's you know a bit of my progress.

I have read the entire thread. And, to be honest, it's the added OOC obstacle that annoys me the most - it may add a minor hiccup ICly, but it certainly won't stop anyone from committing a full-on invasion. But the extra math does nothing but annoy.



Really, really bad. If I'm online with another player, we can accomplish ten or twenty posts within the space of an hour. Requiring you to work everything out means that three people need to be online to gain that same efficiency rate - and, otherwise, the likelihood of one person being away is increased, and cripples the game, to boot.

I've played various dice games, most of them D20-based, online, for some time. D&D, for instance, works only when everyone's online. But the problem here is that you're placing a crippling step in front of everyone's ability to play.

I like this idea of designing ships according to a set of rules - it's fun, it allows people to compare ships with something in common, so relative 'power' values for each ship can be established, and using hard science means that no-one walks in with a handwavium powered maser, and destroys everyone else.

But forcing everyone to capitulate to dice rolls, although good around a table, is absolutely horrible in a situation online. I understand how these things work - and they rarely, rarely do.

For the obstacle, you have to triple the fleet size for it alone to be able to travel back and forth. Then, you need to commit many resources to make any conquest profitable. It does more than annoy, but annoyance does come with it if you are hard up for harrassing the smaller nations. And if you don't want to bother the smaller nations, why do you care wether or not if you can attack them?

As for the dice rolls... ok. We shall go with "RP until someone has a dispute". If somebody ruins the good faith of the RP then dice will begin seeing implementation soon after.

Fuel mass =/= fleet size. It just means more use of tankers. But, hey, its your RP. After all, these limitations will hurt everyone equally.

Fuel mass =/= fleet size. It just means more use of tankers. But, hey, its your RP. After all, these limitations will hurt everyone equally.

It's not hurt. They do effect everyone the same. They keep two systems from interacting as easily as two planets.

You've been continually re-enforcing my position that using fuel for jump initiation works perfectly. It works exactly the way it needs to.

Without it, I might as well put everyone in the same system. Why? Well because then cheap FTL that cost only a fraction of regular engines would make the distance meaningless anyway.

If you do not care to cause any harm to the smaller nations, then why do you care wether or not you can reach them easily? If you don't care, then you don't care.

I don't see anything that I could be missing.

It's not hurt. They do effect everyone the same. They keep two systems from interacting as easily as two planets.

Hurt. Inimicality to trade is not good for nations. Thus, hurt is the correct word. But

Without it, I might as well put everyone in the same system. Why? Well because then cheap FTL that cost only a fraction of regular engines would make the distance meaningless anyway.

Or you could just use the ancient expedient of having FTL take time. That tends to do the trick fairly well, I find. And ships still require specialised FTL drives to traverse these wormholes. So, even without the fuel cost, you have to give extra space and cost to FTL-capable ships.

If you do not care to cause any harm to the smaller nations, then why do you care wether or not you can reach them easily?

Because going to war means I'll simply overcome those costs. Stockpile fuel and weaponry, go through the wormhole, and start a'smashin things. But this sort of thing really cripples trade and diplomatic discourse. War doesn't need to be profitable every quarter and pay back money to its shareholders. Traders generally do.

Hurt. Inimicality to trade is not good for nations. Thus, hurt is the correct word. But

Or you could just use the ancient expedient of having FTL take time. That tends to do the trick fairly well, I find. And ships still require specialised FTL drives to traverse these wormholes. So, even without the fuel cost, you have to give extra space and cost to FTL-capable ships.

Because going to war means I'll simply overcome those costs. Stockpile fuel and weaponry, go through the wormhole, and start a'smashin things. But this sort of thing really cripples trade and diplomatic discourse. War doesn't need to be profitable every quarter and pay back money to its shareholders. Traders generally do.

First of all, not hurt. Trade is still there. The small nations can trade with each other in their system, the large nations can trade with each other in their system, and if they wish for trade with each other then the trade must somehow overcome the FTL cost.

Next, so instead of the fuel cost you want a time cost, which would essentially work just like a fuel cost since it takes up resources, with the added detriment that you have to wait before your ship can act in the other system...

Third... the ruling is that FTL jumps cost the massive fuel amount. If you can overcome the cost to go to war, you can overcome the cost to make trade, which brings me to the point of "Why do you care unless you just want an easy time attacking the smaller nations?".

First of all, not hurt. Trade is still there. The small nations can trade with each other in their system, the large nations can trade with each other in their system, and if they wish for trade with each other then the trade must somehow overcome the FTL cost.

Y'know, refuting someone's argument, even if it's quibbling over a tiny word like 'hurt', generally does require some form of justification or explanation.

Next, so instead of the fuel cost you want a time cost, which would essentially work just like a fuel cost since it takes up resources, with the added detriment that you have to wait before your ship can act in the other system...

"Want" and "would work in the same way", incidentally, are not the same thing. Just for your information.

Third... the ruling is that FTL jumps cost the massive fuel amount. If you can overcome the cost to go to war, you can overcome the cost to make trade

Fine. Here's a few words, and a simple mathematical formula to do what normal English apparently cannot.

Purpose of Trade = Profit
Purpose of War = Not Profit

IF
Fuel Costs > Trade Profits
Trade = Untenable

IF
Fuel Costs > War Profits
War = Not A Corporate Interest Anyway, You Smacktard.

Thus, if I really want to go to war, I can take a few hits to the economy to do it. Sure, it's expensive, but, hell, I'll just rape and pillage and take all of their fuel. Problem solved.

If I want to trade with someone, and the fuel costs outweigh trade profits, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever, in any case, to ever trade with them.


which brings me to the point of "Why do you care unless you just want an easy time attacking the smaller nations?".

Because I care when things make sense. I dislike arbitrary rulings, and the more something fits in with physics and hard science, the more willing I am to go along with it. Having a whole buttload of mass just 'used up' by the wormhole has a lot of strange implications, not the least of these being the whole Conservation of Energy thing.

Oh, and I'd like to refer you to the thread. Read it. Maybe my posts will bring you enlightenment as to my motives.

The way I figure it, most trade is gonna be between planets in a particular system. If you're going to trade between systems, it's only going to be profitable in big convoys e.g. the Spanish Gold fleet. If you really are worried about having fuel, set up stations near the periphery of a system so that ships will be gassed up for FTL travel.

I highly doubt fuel is going to be more valuable than the stuff in your cargohold if you're trading in profitable goods.

Y'know, refuting someone's argument, even if it's quibbling over a tiny word like 'hurt', generally does require some form of justification or explanation.

"Want" and "would work in the same way", incidentally, are not the same thing. Just for your information.

Fine. Here's a few words, and a simple mathematical formula to do what normal English apparently cannot.

Purpose of Trade = Profit
Purpose of War = Not Profit

IF
Fuel Costs > Trade Profits
Trade = Untenable

IF
Fuel Costs > War Profits
War = Not A Corporate Interest Anyway, You Smacktard.

Thus, if I really want to go to war, I can take a few hits to the economy to do it. Sure, it's expensive, but, hell, I'll just rape and pillage and take all of their fuel. Problem solved.

If I want to trade with someone, and the fuel costs outweigh trade profits, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever, in any case, to ever trade with them.

Because I care when things make sense. I dislike arbitrary rulings, and the more something fits in with physics and hard science, the more willing I am to go along with it. Having a whole buttload of mass just 'used up' by the wormhole has a lot of strange implications, not the least of these being the whole Conservation of Energy thing.

Oh, and I'd like to refer you to the thread. Read it. Maybe my posts will bring you enlightenment as to my motives.

I gave justification. There is no hurt. There is still trade.

You want something that will work the same way as what we have.

If you expect to gain nothing from war what do you think the point of war is?

And as for caring about things making sense, so an unpowered engine makes sense? You are attached to the term wormhole, and you have refused to read the explaination given in this thread for how the fueld jump initiation works. Immediately after you show that you didn't read this thread you ask me to read this thread. :rolleyes:

No, the large nations are not allowed to exterminate the small nations.
If you wanna trade with the small nations, find something more expensive then deuterium (which is just about everything) and set up a system of cheap tankers and barges making the exchanges so that you have a profit making interstellar trade route.

If you think war is about spending money on killing with no hope of gain... actually, i don;t think for one second you beleive that. It's difficult for me to assume you're stupid, the evidence suggest you have the motive of simply wanting to glass the smaller nations. I can see no other option.

Anyway, my nation is going to be setting up an FTL Barge route. If you wanna go on a warpath, that will cut you and your neighbors off from trade with my nation when the costs to wage war effectively outweigh your economy. You will crash and miss out on trade with me.

Yes, but it's yet another expense to interplanetary trade. Ah, well. As I've said - my main complaint is that you need to do another set of calculations to figure how much fuel you need to get from planet-to-system-to-planet.

The way I figure it, most trade is gonna be between planets in a particular system. If you're going to trade between systems, it's only going to be profitable in big convoys e.g. the Spanish Gold fleet. If you really are worried about having fuel, set up stations near the periphery of a system so that ships will be gassed up for FTL travel.

I highly doubt fuel is going to be more valuable than the stuff in your cargohold if you're trading in profitable goods.

Thank you! See, Barkozy gets it. :D

Updating the name and front page. Making the two new threads now.

We can at least start budgeting and making ships, and a getting the Map Thread reserved at least will be nice.

If you expect to gain nothing from war what do you think the point of war is?

Gain nothing? Hardly. It's just that such gains may be political or military in nature, rather than economical. No pure monetary profit involved in war. If I'm taking out a rival in order to secure a world, bludgeoning someone into moving their navy away from the border.. no direct monetary profit accrues from this.

And as for caring about things making sense, so an unpowered engine makes sense?

Of course it doesn't. But that's using the good ol' strawman - which is poor debate at best.

You are attached to the term wormhole, and you have refused to read the explaination given in this thread for how the fueld jump initiation works. Immediately after you show that you didn't read this thread you ask me to read this thread. :rolleyes:

The term 'wormhole' is more a blanket thing, much in the same way that 'hyperspace' tends to cover dimensional travel, 'jump' tends to cover ship-generated anamolies in space-time, and 'warp' tends to cover continual anamoly generation to travel FTL. If 'orbiting field through which ships may pass in a wormhole-reminiscent manner via the useage of an FTL drive' would soothe your mind, I'll take to using it.

Actually, I was calling your attention to your continual request for me to read the thread with very little information or sense attached to them. A poor form of imitation, so you could see precisely how inane your requests were.

No, the large nations are not allowed to exterminate the small nations.If you wanna trade with the small nations, find something more expensive then deuterium (which is just about everything) and set up a system of cheap tankers and barges making the exchanges so that you have a profit making interstellar trade route.

Wait, wait. So this is meant to stop attacks. And yet it has absolutely jack consqeuence on trade. Thus, we can easily derive from that that it has, well, the same effect on war. If you're going to cripple travelling to prevent people going on the warpath, it's going to have some adverse effect to intersystem trade. If it doesn't, then, well, it doesn't really do all that much to the warpath, does it now?

If you think war is about spending money on killing with no hope of gain... actually, i don;t think for one second you beleive that. It's difficult for me to assume you're stupid, the evidence suggest you have the motive of simply wanting to glass the smaller nations. I can see no other option.

Let's look at something. An re-enactment of my stated motives, and how you've interpreted them.

Me: "I don't want trade to be overly expensive."
You: "Ah-HA! You must want to invade someone!"

Me: "I don't want to add the extra bother to this process."
You: "Ah-HA! You must want to invade someone!"

Me: "The consumption of the ship's weight in mass raises pressing and strange questions about the nature of the FTL we're using."
You: "Ah-HA! You must want to invade someone!"

It's getting tiring. Invading people can be fun, admittedly. But so can trading, diplomacy, designing ships, and whatnot.

Anyway, my nation is going to be setting up an FTL Barge route. If you wanna go on a warpath, that will cut you and your neighbors off from trade with my nation when the costs to wage war effectively outweigh your economy. You will crash and miss out on trade with me.

..you do realise these sorts of things have the strangest tendency to matter jack, right? Firstly, I'm not intending on going on the warpath. I've done enough glassing in normal NS for ten people. Or maybe eleven. Ten-point-five, perhaps... anyway, the point is moot.

If I really, really, really want to go to war, missing out on trade with another, single nation isn't going to hamstring me. Hurt me a bit, sure. (Ah! There's the word 'hurt' used in proper context once again! Oh, the horror!)

But, again, another moot point. Mainly 'cause I finished designing a cutter.

- - - - - -
Illyrio-class Cutter
Ship Mass: 500 tons
Fuel Mass: 250 tons

FTL Drive - No
Standard Binary Plasma Drive
Fuel Tanks
Structure and Hull
2 Advanced Comm Suites
2 Advanced Sensor Suites

Targeting Skill 2
1 Small Laser
ECM – None

10 3rd-Class Crew Accommodation
8 Crewmembers
1 Small Airlock
4 basic 4-person lifeboats
RMD Rating – 1
Advanced Armor – 34.5 tons

Damage Index – 73
Construction Time – 6 days

Cost: $28,259,000

Description: The Illyrio is the workhorse of the System Patrol, as well as the backbone of the defensive fleet. Slow, using a standard binary fusion drive, the Illyrio sports the most advanced sensors and communications available, as well as backup suites of both.

The cutter is light, weighing in at 750 tons, and is fairly slow, only able to accelerate between .5 and .75 g, although the structure only allows for the first. Fairly tough, the ship has thirty tonnes of superior armor, allowing it to take a hit from even the most advanced of lasers, and, although it only sports a standard laser itself, it does not have the computing power to hit long-range targets.

The ship's primary advantage is its price, costing a negligible $28.259 million, which, compared to the multi-hundred-billion cruisers, allows thousands of them to be pumped out with relative ease. Although pitifully weak, and unable to defeat anything other than unarmed civilian craft alone, this craft used en masse is a devastating weapon.

- - - - - -
Illyrio-class Cutter
Ship Mass: 500 tons
Fuel Mass: 250 tons

FTL Drive - No
Standard Binary Plasma Drive
Fuel Tanks
Structure and Hull
2 Advanced Comm Suites
2 Advanced Sensor Suites

Targeting Skill 2
1 Small Laser
ECM – None

10 3rd-Class Crew Accommodation
8 Crewmembers
1 Small Airlock
4 basic 4-person lifeboats
RMD Rating – 1
Advanced Armor – 34.5 tons

Damage Index – 73
Construction Time – 6 days

Cost: $28,259,000

Description: The Illyrio is the workhorse of the System Patrol, as well as the backbone of the defensive fleet. Slow, using a standard binary fusion drive, the Illyrio sports the most advanced sensors and communications available, as well as backup suites of both.

The cutter is light, weighing in at 750 tons, and is fairly slow, only able to accelerate between .5 and .75 g, although the structure only allows for the first. Fairly tough, the ship has thirty tonnes of superior armor, allowing it to take a hit from even the most advanced of lasers, and, although it only sports a standard laser itself, it does not have the computing power to hit long-range targets.

The ship's primary advantage is its price, costing a negligible $28.259 million, which, compared to the multi-hundred-billion cruisers, allows thousands of them to be pumped out with relative ease. Although pitifully weak, and unable to defeat anything other than unarmed civilian craft alone, this craft used en masse is a devastating weapon.

So, war has no gain, but it's used to gain? No, wait, it's that war's gain is military and political, existing in a vacuum away from economics.

Also, my assumption that you simply want to wage war is a recent one. It is not my entire argument.

Next, you mention something about making technical sense. In a statement of sarcasm you put it much more concisely then you did in all other posts you made.

You made it clear you understand that wormhole in this context does not mean wormhole in other contexts, thank you.

As for my "straw-man", you want FTL to work fuelessly. An unfueld engine makes sense to you? No straw man at all, that is what you are stating. I know you are stating that because you stated it.

If you want to get into a technical discussion over it, make the technical end of your argument clear and concise from the get go. Going with the principles I already stated on the first page of the thread you claim you read, the matter used to initiate the jump is used all at once to generate the energy for the jump. It's a jump, instantaneous, technically taking no time at all, and the fuel needed is converted to pure energy when that happens

Since the rule is you just need equal mass, it doesn;t even have to be dueterium fuel. There are cheaper materials... not many, but there are.

You don't like me asking you to read the thread, but you continually prove you haven't read it. :rolleyes:

As for the ship, only a couple things wrong with it.

You list it's attributes in a truncated way. The way you listed them before, with price attached, was great.
You haven't listed engine characteristics. What is the acceleration, evasion rating, and Delta-V?
You calculated the damage index incorrectly. Please re-check the formula.

This...looks promising.

I'll join; either in the Big Nation system as my 4 billion citizen self, or I'll take a pop hit to join the Small Nation system.
I was thinking it would be a fairly hospitable but small planet, with large numbers of mainly self-sufficient habitats swarming around it to alleviate the crowding a bit.

Here is the spaceship Specs thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=515778

I think for my colonies first R&D project, Im going to be working on a massive warship. This will take much money and day (How did you calculate construction days HT?) but I think it'll be good.

This...looks promising.

I'll join; either in the Big Nation system as my 4 billion citizen self, or I'll take a pop hit to join the Small Nation system.
I was thinking it would be a fairly hospitable but small planet, with large numbers of mainly self-sufficient habitats swarming around it to alleviate the crowding a bit.

How are you taking that pop hit? New nation or arbitrarily? We are using NS-Tracker to determine the raw numbers, it's all in the first post.

It might be easier for you to use your big nation. The Big Nation system is getting pretty big, eh? :D

In either case, glad to have you aboard.

I think for my colonies first R&D project, Im going to be working on a massive warship. This will take much money and day (How did you calculate construction days HT?) but I think it'll be good.

Construction time calculation is towards the end of ship construction rules. It's the last thing on the list.

Nothing stopping you from trying to build a super-ship... except maybe the supership.

So, war has no gain, but it's used to gain? No, wait, it's that war's gain is military and political, existing in a vacuum away from economics.

I'll just file this under 'makes absolutely no fuggin' sense.' Seriously. I didn't understand a word of that. Can you rephrase it to help it conform with English grammar?

As for my "straw-man", you want FTL to work fuelessly. An unfueld engine makes sense to you? No straw man at all, that is what you are stating. I know you are stating that because you stated it.

And why shouldn't FTL work fuelessly, or nigh-fuelessly? These things we're using are naturally occurring phenomena. Things we don't understand. The mysterious jump between systems. I don't need fuel to catch a wave, nor do I need fuel to use the awesome power of gravity to pull me towards the ground. However, to catch a wave, it's often useful to use a surfboard - thus, a drive that doesn't require fuel to work. A drive that merely expediates a process that occurs anyway.

If you want to get into a technical discussion over it, make the technical end of your argument clear and concise from the get go. Going with the principles I already stated on the first page of the thread you claim you read, the matter used to initiate the jump is used all at once to generate the energy for the jump. It's a jump, instantaneous, technically taking no time at all, and the fuel needed is converted to pure energy when that happens

Right. So where does this energy go?

You don't like me asking you to read the thread, but you continually prove you haven't read it. :rolleyes:

Ah, the good old unsupported accusation. You continually prove.. nothing. Congratulations.

You list it's attributes in a truncated way. The way you listed them before, with price attached, was great.

That works well too, but it's unwieldy and means I have to add another step to the design process.

You haven't listed engine characteristics. What is the acceleration, evasion rating, and Delta-V?

Just a Q here. What precisely is Delta-V?

You calculated the damage index incorrectly. Please re-check the formula.

Ah, right. I cube-rooted THEN added armor. My bad. Gotta add armor THEN cube-root.

Delta-V
Delta is a measure of the change in a quantity, and V is usually velocity, when it isn't potential difference. So Delta-V will presumably be acceleration?
(Haven't read the info, working from first principles here)

I think for my colonies first R&D project, Im going to be working on a massive warship. This will take much money and day (How did you calculate construction days HT?) but I think it'll be good.

There's not really all that much to a massive warship. The problem with a massive warship, of course, is that it's huge, hugely expensive, and really, really hard to build. I'm designing 'throwaway' ships right now for the majority of my navy, as opposed to using insanely large craft which don't really have much of a purpose.

Ten thousand small ships can be in ten thousand places at once, cheaply. Large ships are only really useful as flagships, and to spearhead major invasions. And since I don't intend on having the former, or doing the latter.. well, in any case. You could probably create designs and sell them. That, at least, could keep a few of your people afloat.

G is acceleration.
Delta-V is the fastest you can go while still having enough fuel to stop. Terror Incognitia described how it works best. It is the delta of your velocity.

Essentially, it's a max speed. Ideally you want to travel just a little slower then that, just in case.

There's not really all that much to a massive warship. The problem with a massive warship, of course, is that it's huge, hugely expensive, and really, really hard to build. I'm designing 'throwaway' ships right now for the majority of my navy, as opposed to using insanely large craft which don't really have much of a purpose.

Ten thousand small ships can be in ten thousand places at once, cheaply. Large ships are only really useful as flagships, and to spearhead major invasions. And since I don't intend on having the former, or doing the latter.. well, in any case. You could probably create designs and sell them. That, at least, could keep a few of your people afloat.

Yeah i guess for now Ill work on fighters, corvettes, frigates, etc. Although te massive ship will be a personal project for me.

I'll just file this under 'makes absolutely no fuggin' sense.' Seriously. I didn't understand a word of that. Can you rephrase it to help it conform with English grammar?

And why shouldn't FTL work fuelessly, or nigh-fuelessly? These things we're using are naturally occurring phenomena. Things we don't understand. The mysterious jump between systems. I don't need fuel to catch a wave, nor do I need fuel to use the awesome power of gravity to pull me towards the ground. However, to catch a wave, it's often useful to use a surfboard - thus, a drive that doesn't require fuel to work. A drive that merely expediates a process that occurs anyway.

Right. So where does this energy go?

Ah, the good old unsupported accusation. You continually prove.. nothing. Congratulations.


I stated the sentence in english grammar. To put it another way, you contradicted yourself. War cannot have gain and have no gain at the same time. And if war, which drains the economy, never had an economic return, no one would go to war.
War gains land and resources. Money. It is about money. And if your military "wins" and destroys the nation's economy, thus preventing anyone from being able to use what was won... the win is useless.

The fueled iteration of the FTL simply makes it more difficult for ships to travel from system to system. If you plan on sending warships to another system without being able to return... then, you just wasted some warships. Even if they win the fight, that's money you spent that you are not getting back. You need a better plan.

Trade, on the other hand, setting up very cheap ships that will ferry valuables back and forth, is much more possible and profitable. At the loss of the cheapest materials only, valuable materials and food can be shipped between the systems. A decent warship is more expensive than a cargo ship by an order of magnitude, and while it may happen to weigh as much as a loaded cargo ship it only serves one purpose... it isn't going to put money into your nation the way the cargo ship would.

There is no reason why the FTL can or can't work either way, if you really want to talk physics. So I have picked this way. As for weird questions like "where does the energy go?"... well, it is a drive. Where do you think it goes? Energy moved through the drive and expelled produces the desired effect. But you live on earth and understand basic high-school mechanics, so you knew that already and are just looking to stab at me.
As for the natural phenomena, all we know about them is they are the only place where FTL works. That's it.

And I have made no unsupported accusations. You are asking questions answered on the first page. I ask you to read the first page and you tell me that is silly. You then continue to ask questions answered on the first page. :rolleyes:

Are you going to play Nation States with us, Hyperspatial Travel? Or are you going to try and reject logic and sanity?
Just drop it already.

Ach, my mistake on Delta-V. Delta-V over time is acceleration, which can indeed be related to g, to give nice friendly numbers in a range of maybe 1 to 10.

As to the ongoing dispute about war, trade and FTL...
It's clear that restrictions on FTL will affect both war and trade; war will be less affected, because war is not primarily conducted for direct economic gain; at best it is an investment which will pay off years down the line, at worst it is purely for prestige and essentially bragging rights, and thus has no economic justification.
The current FTL restrictions will cut trade to a bare minimum and increase the military advantage required to successfully invade. That's ok by me, we should just recognise that's what it is. Trading food, short of beluga caviar, will be impractical because everyone can grow their own. Likewise, bulk goods such as wood etc - no. Rare minerals, items of specific manufacture or heritage, or of a tech-level unattainable anywhere else will be the main trade items.
After all, it isn't just the fuel cost, which is itself considerable. It's also the cost of the ship - you have to consider that it must pay off the cost of building it within a few years of normal operation to be worth the price of construction, so while there'll be a lot of slow-moving in-system transport there will be little trade to other systems.

Oh, and I'll join as my standard NS pop, thus obviously in the big-nation system.

EDIT: Oh, and another thing; I haven't yet read in detail the information on FTL, just skimmed it, but I'm wondering if within the tech it would be possible (eventually) to construct a sort of Portal, which would be sited in a region where FTL was possible, and could propel a vessel to FTL using it's own energy not that of the vessel - one of those at each end could allow cheap barge-style transports to travel between systems, with no need for FTL engines...

QUick question. Where are the stats for making fighters for the Carrier ships?
EDIT: I found it never mind

Also, could someone explain part 4 to me on the ship build (Accel and drive mass and cost) that table is a bit confusing. I am currently working on making a frigate and ommiting some things (Im not sure if a entire medical bay is necesarry for a small ship...and crewwise it should be about 5 members.)

EDIT: Oh, and another thing; I haven't yet read in detail the information on FTL, just skimmed it, but I'm wondering if within the tech it would be possible (eventually) to construct a sort of Portal, which would be sited in a region where FTL was possible, and could propel a vessel to FTL using it's own energy not that of the vessel - one of those at each end could allow cheap barge-style transports to travel between systems, with no need for FTL engines...

The FTL leaves with the ship, has to be part of the ship for it to work.

What you could have is a way-station, an interstellar truck stop. Just use cargo ships that have the FTL, and the fuel can externally attach as modular. A waystation sends fuel to ships as they head into the jump point. It just sits their, producing fuel from Kuiper Belt debris and sending it to FTL ships as they pass by.

Also, could someone explain part 4 to me on the ship build (Accel and drive mass and cost) that table is a bit confusing. I am currently working on making a frigate and ommiting some things (Im not sure if a entire medical bay is necesarry for a small ship...and crewwise it should be about 5 members.)

No, a medical bay is not needed for just five people, really.

As for part 4, first determine how much you'd like the ship to be able to accelerate. This is expressed in Gs. Match the collumn of your acceleration choice with row of your engine choice. The place where they intersect is the percentage of the ship's weight that will be the engine. Knowing now how much the engine weighs, you can determine the engines cost.

sounds like just my kind of Sci-Fi

Here's a good resource I've found for the Hard Sci-Fi setting
Link (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html)
no out-right RPG style stats etc. but plenty of explanations, tables, more explanations, some math and over-all lots of good explanations.

Ok cool. Ill be working on a new frigate then. Ill work with common sense rules like no large mounted weaponary on it and things like that.

Ok cool. Ill be working on a new frigate then. Ill work with common sense rules like no large mounted weaponary on it and things like that.

Aye, Vanguard is a game I have played and understand well. The most versatile weapon in the game is the Medium Aperture laser.

I'd love to join, seems like just my kind of SF.

I've found the Atomic Rockets (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html) site to be a very useful resource for Hard Sci-Fi, it's not a fixed RPG set-up like Vanguard, but it's got all the numbers and explanations you could ever want.

I liek the Vanguard stuff, but I've found a flaw in their stats/explanations.

X-ray Lasers; everything is correct up until they say the range is only 2000 km
but a bomb pumped X-ray laser's attenuation is such through vacuum, that it remains highly destructive against any un-hardened ship out to a full light hour (1,079,252,848.8 Kilometers) and is still deadly against hardened targets at about half that range or more.

The FTL leaves with the ship, has to be part of the ship for it to work.

What you could have is a way-station, an interstellar truck stop. Just use cargo ships that have the FTL, and the fuel can externally attach as modular. A waystation sends fuel to ships as they head into the jump point. It just sits their, producing fuel from Kuiper Belt debris and sending it to FTL ships as they pass by.

I'm aware of the opportunity for a way-station, and that will be much cheaper and easier to put in place than t'other, but a Portal would have been fun, I had to ask if it was possible.

I'm aware of the opportunity for a way-station, and that will be much cheaper and easier to put in place than t'other, but a Portal would have been fun, I had to ask if it was possible.

Feel free to ask questions, make suggestions, and discuss with me alternate possibilities.

And just because I disagree is no reason to get hostile. I will be reasonable. :)

Reasonable never means someone will agree. :D

OK...here is the first in a couple series of ships I will be creating and selling to some factions. As it being my first ship, there will more than likely be many changes to it as I go along and get better at designing using the Vanguard methods in the PDF file.

First, designation numbers

X stands for Experimental. T will stand for Tested and usable
The next series of letters will be for type of ship
The next number designates its acceleration type:

01 - 3 g+
02 - 2 g
03 - 1.5 g
04 - 1 g
05 - .75 g
06 - .5 g
07 - .25 g
08 - .1 g
09 - .01 g
10 - .001 g

After that is S for Stealth (If capable of Stealth).

After that there is a dash and either the letters FL (Faster than Light Travel Capable) or SL (Not..)

So here goes...


XFRG04-SL Lusca

2000 Tons
800 tons of fuel
400 ton HP BPD at $120,000,000
Top Acceleration: 1 g
Top Speed: 1915 km/s (40% fuel)

Fuel Tanks: 64 tons $32,000
Hull Structure: 140 tons $1,400,000
Communications Structure: $10,000
Sensors: $200,000 and 2 tons
Weaponry Targeting Unit: 32 tons $256,000,000

Weapons:
2 Iota Flux Cannons (Lasers of Medium Aperture:UV Laser): 200 tons $40,000,000

.5 RMD


Crew Quarters: 2nd Class: 6 tons $25,000
Advanced Armour: $712,000
Armour Value: 534
Damage Index: 12
Construction Time: Approx 34 Days, 9 Minutes, 13.83 Seconds.

Total Cost: $3,347,032,200

Crew needed:
1 Spaceship Drive Technician
1 Pilot
2 Tactical Control Personnel
1 Aerospace Engineer

XFRG04-FL Lusca

2000 Tons
142 tons dedicated to the FTL drive $28400
800 tons of fuel
400 ton HP BPD at $120,000,000
Top Acceleration: 1 g
Top Speed: 1915 km/s (40% fuel)

Fuel Tanks: 64 tons $32,000
Hull Structure: 140 tons $1,400,000
Communications Structure: $10,000
Sensors: $200,000 and 2 tons
Weaponry Targeting Unit: 32 tons $256,000,000

Weapons:
2 Iota Flux Cannons (Lasers of Medium Aperture:UV Laser): 200 tons $40,000,000

.5 RMD

Advanced Armour: $440,000
Armour Value: 330
Damage Index: 12
Construction Time: Approx 34 Days, 9 Minutes, 13.83 Seconds.

Total Cost: $3,344,883,200

Crew needed:
1 Spaceship Drive Technician
1 Pilot
2 Tactical Control Personnel
1 Aerospace Engineer

Before I say I'd approve it, it has a long range engine and an FTL drive but no crew accomodations at all. Without anything to keep the crew during off hours and possibly when there is no life support, the crew cannot last long.
But other then the lack of crew, it's pretty freaking good.

Posted a design for a SLT Destroyer in the ship forum. It's meant to be an older design so it's slow and lightly armored. Take a gander at it and let me know if it conforms to the rules properly.

Before I say I'd approve it, it has a long range engine and an FTL drive but no crew accomodations at all. Without anything to keep the crew during off hours and possibly when there is no life support, the crew cannot last long.
But other then the lack of crew, it's pretty freaking good.

To be honest, I didnt really want to put the FTL drive in there. The way the rules read it seemed like I had to, but since I don't have to Ill just take it out and replace it with better armour and maybe another laser. Its basically an oversized fighter that can stay in space for about a week before need to come back to the main fleet. I made it mostly as a scout and to be used in squadrons. As for crew, I listed them on the bottom. Mostly going to just be a pilot and two Tacticle Personnel Units firing the lasers, as well as the Engineer.

Does lifesupport cost anything on a ship? It didnt really say anything about it and I just figured it was known that all of the ships had LS.

Also, for brevities sake, im changing my faction's name to the Sicari.

To be honest, I didnt really want to put the FTL drive in there. The way the rules read it seemed like I had to, but since I don't have to Ill just take it out and replace it with better armour and maybe another laser. Its basically an oversized fighter that can stay in space for about a week before need to come back to the main fleet. I made it mostly as a scout and to be used in squadrons. As for crew, I listed them on the bottom. Mostly going to just be a pilot and two Tacticle Personnel Units firing the lasers, as well as the Engineer.

Does lifesupport cost anything on a ship? It didnt really say anything about it and I just figured it was known that all of the ships had LS.

Life support and crew quarters go hand in hand. You do need them both. Quarters include personal waste facilities, washrooms, little food makers, and a proper bed that keeps you from floating around.

Life support and crew quarters go hand in hand. You do need them both. Quarters include personal waste facilities, washrooms, little food makers, and a proper bed that keeps you from floating around.

Ok I fixed the ship up, taking out the FTL drive to make room for crew quarters (and admittedly more armour :) ). As for members of the crew, that should be good although I am always open for suggestions.

Also, I have my program working so I am going to begin by making my planet, then I can make others.

*is interested*

Mind if I join?

I'd love to join, seems like just my kind of SF.

I've found the Atomic Rockets (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html) site to be a very useful resource for Hard Sci-Fi, it's not a fixed RPG set-up like Vanguard, but it's got all the numbers and explanations you could ever want.

I liek the Vanguard stuff, but I've found a flaw in their stats/explanations.

X-ray Lasers; everything is correct up until they say the range is only 2000 km
but a bomb pumped X-ray laser's attenuation is such through vacuum, that it remains highly destructive against any un-hardened ship out to a full light hour (1,079,252,848.8 Kilometers) and is still deadly against hardened targets at about half that range or more.

Welcome aboard.
And that isn't a flaw. Those are essentially confined high density laser mediums around a nuke. During the first fraction of a second of the nuclear blast, the energy is channeled through the mediums and they get one quick burst before they are destroyed, carrying the destructive power beyond the normal nuke blast range.
They are nowhere near as precise as standard lasers, the lack of focus is what cuts their range short. Nukes are as common as regular missiles are today, and the expensive X-Ray laser enhanced bombs are more for increasing their effectiveness.

*is interested*

Mind if I join?

Welcome aboard.

Okay, I really hate to bring this up again, but after reading the manual and going over the tread I feel that I still don't quite get how the FTL works. So I'm going to set an example of how I understand it and you correct me where I'm wrong.

Scenario:

The ship Jumper weighs 10,000 tons (gross weight). 50% of her mass is dedicated to fuel, 5,000 tons. The Jumper is equipped with a FTL drive. This ship wishes to jump to another system. In order to do that she must:

A) Consume the entirety of her fuel stores, leaving here with 0 tons of fuel left after she has completed the jump.

Or

B) Be fitted with another 5,000 tons of fuel via hardpoints, still leaving her with empty internal tanks and empty external tank after she has completed the jump.


I really need to know how the jump rules work so that I can design ships accordingly. Is large internal fuel capacity viable, or would I need external tanks either way?

Okay, I really hate to bring this up again, but after reading the manual and going over the tread I feel that I still don't quite get how the FTL works. So I'm going to set an example of how I understand it and you correct me where I'm wrong.

Scenario:

The ship Jumper weighs 10,000 tons (gross weight). 50% of her mass is dedicated to fuel, 5,000 tons. The Jumper is equipped with a FTL drive. This ship wishes to jump to another system. In order to do that she must:

A) Consume the entirety of her fuel stores, leaving here with 0 tons of fuel left after she has completed the jump.

Or

B) Be fitted with another 5,000 tons of fuel via hardpoints, still leaving her with empty internal tanks and empty external tank after she has completed the jump.


I really need to know how the jump rules work so that I can design ships accordingly. Is large internal fuel capacity viable, or would I need external tanks either way?

Your math was right.

Be fitted with 10,000 tons of external fuel. Tank and all will be consumed in the jump.
Just has to consume mass, doesn't matter what. Deuterium is dirt cheap, and if you can find something cheaper go ahead and use that too.

So for a ship to jump something with mass equal to the ships mass must be consumed? So I'm guessing hardpoints or large cargo bays would be the way to go for FTL ships. I understand any mass is usable for the process, but what constraints does equipment place on the available conversion mass. What I mean is, whats to stop a ship from towing an asteroid to a jump point and using that as the conversion mass?

...Unless I'm mistaken, or unless you have a "house rule" about FTL fuel use, there's no rule about the FTL drives using fuel. The main FTL description just describes the mechanism used (wormholes), and the FTL Drive section says nothing about fuel. It just says that "FTL tonnage capacity must be equal to the entire ship, including cargo, fuel, and attachments on hardpoints". In other words, the FTL Drive has to be big enough for the ship. Unless I'm missing something, there's no mention of fuel.

a little off topic...

What does MK II stand for?

a little off topic...

What does MK II stand for?

Mark 2?

sorry if this is a repost, the forum has been wonking out recently (and not just post-time paradoxes)

My basic plan so far is to be a trader nation, not so much a commerce hub but instead a loose collection of merchants, cargo haulers and the occasional raider/pirate/escort for protection.

And now for a few questions

Okay, FTL:
Is there any problem with having an FTL drive of larger 'capacity' than the ship it is 'jumping'?

My basic idea is to have a waypoint station at the jump points with a large FTL drive (or several large FTL drives) that would be attached with fuel for the jump at the jump point, The ship pulls up, picks up fuel and FTL and jumps, then drops the FTL off, does it's business and then returns, picks up the FTL+fuel from the waystation, rinse wash and repeat.

Now, Engines:
Any reason to stick with the Vanguard engines or can we go with other HFT thrusters, like the VASIMR (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3c2.html#vasimr)

And now a Weapon idea:

I call it the Laser Impulse Projectile
basically, we take a big hunk of whatever, poke a hole in the bottom and fill it with Lithium Deuteride. Shine a laser at the end with a hole to ablate the Lithium Deuteride and provide thrust (theoretical maximum impulse for a laser ablated propellant is infinite, and you need a less than weapons grade laser to ablate the propellant. stick the whole kit on the nose of a missile and you've got a handy kinetic kill weapon, and because we're using LiHe3 for ablative, when it hits you get a nice fusion explosion for added damage.
It's definitely no nuke, but can do significant damage to targeted areas, like engines or radiators to disable the enemy vessel for boarding.

Also, Radiators:
Are we using only basic radiators or are alternate designs acceptable, like Magneto-Hydro-Dynamic Liquid Droplet radiators?

So for a ship to jump something with mass equal to the ships mass must be consumed? So I'm guessing hardpoints or large cargo bays would be the way to go for FTL ships. I understand any mass is usable for the process, but what constraints does equipment place on the available conversion mass. What I mean is, whats to stop a ship from towing an asteroid to a jump point and using that as the conversion mass?

Nothing can stop you. :D

sorry if this is a repost, the forum has been wonking out recently (and not just post-time paradoxes)

My basic plan so far is to be a trader nation, not so much a commerce hub but instead a loose collection of merchants, cargo haulers and the occasional raider/pirate/escort for protection.

And now for a few questions

Okay, FTL:
Is there any problem with having an FTL drive of larger 'capacity' than the ship it is 'jumping'?

My basic idea is to have a waypoint station at the jump points with a large FTL drive (or several large FTL drives) that would be attached with fuel for the jump at the jump point, The ship pulls up, picks up fuel and FTL and jumps, then drops the FTL off, does it's business and then returns, picks up the FTL+fuel from the waystation, rinse wash and repeat.

Now, Engines:
Any reason to stick with the Vanguard engines or can we go with other HFT thrusters, like the VASIMR (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3c2.html#vasimr)

And now a Weapon idea:

I call it the Laser Impulse Projectile
basically, we take a big hunk of whatever, poke a hole in the bottom and fill it with Lithium Deuteride. Shine a laser at the end with a hole to ablate the Lithium Deuteride and provide thrust (theoretical maximum impulse for a laser ablated propellant is infinite, and you need a less than weapons grade laser to ablate the propellant. stick the whole kit on the nose of a missile and you've got a handy kinetic kill weapon, and because we're using LiHe3 for ablative, when it hits you get a nice fusion explosion for added damage.
It's definitely no nuke, but can do significant damage to targeted areas, like engines or radiators to disable the enemy vessel for boarding.

Also, Radiators:
Are we using only basic radiators or are alternate designs acceptable, like Magneto-Hydro-Dynamic Liquid Droplet radiators?

The FTL idea is ok. Go for it.

As for the weapon, It'd take time for the shell to accelerate and neither the ship firing nor the target would be allowed to move while it gets up to speed.

The FTL idea is ok. Go for it.

As for the weapon, It'd take time for the shell to accelerate and neither the ship firing nor the target would be allowed to move while it gets up to speed.

...sounds like a planet-killer to me...

so when do you guys want to start making an RP?

And as for days (construction days) how will we determing what an NS day is?

Just an update, I'm probably going to incommunicado for awhile due to my dorm rooms Ethernet jack dying. Not sure when the tech people are going to fix it, all I know is that I have a "ticket" in the system for it. All and all not very reassuring. Send me a TG if you need to reach me, I usually check my nation before cruising the forums. Thanks.

I might get into this... as I've always been trying to find a system to use to regulate technology and ship building.

I'll take the time to read through this during the weekend, and get back to you guys.

I might get into this... as I've always been trying to find a system to use to regulate technology and ship building.

I'll take the time to read through this during the weekend, and get back to you guys.

After reading this thread and the documents... I am confused as to why you guys decided that you needed more then basic fuel consumption to jump systems. According to the manual, fuel is only considered to know how fast your ship can travel per day, and how much space you need to reserve for fuel to know how fast your ship can travel per day. If you want to use FTL, you need to buy an FTL drive powerful enough to propel the mass of the ship, which is indicated by a cost increase per ton of ship... it has nothing to do with the fuel.

Jumping is like passing through a portal, all you have to do is move your ship (with a jump drive) through the "wormhole/jump point" and you will appear on the other side going the same speed as you did when you entered the "wormhole/jump point"...

If you want to impose a house rule of burning up half the total tonnage of a ship in fuel to perform a jump, I will have to say that I won't be joining the game. But, I will still use this Vanguard system to determine my NS ships... As I think it is still a good system.

bump

After reading this thread and the documents... I am confused as to why you guys decided that you needed more then basic fuel consumption to jump systems. According to the manual, fuel is only considered to know how fast your ship can travel per day, and how much space you need to reserve for fuel to know how fast your ship can travel per day. If you want to use FTL, you need to buy an FTL drive powerful enough to propel the mass of the ship, which is indicated by a cost increase per ton of ship... it has nothing to do with the fuel.

Jumping is like passing through a portal, all you have to do is move your ship (with a jump drive) through the "wormhole/jump point" and you will appear on the other side going the same speed as you did when you entered the "wormhole/jump point"...

If you want to impose a house rule of burning up half the total tonnage of a ship in fuel to perform a jump, I will have to say that I won't be joining the game. But, I will still use this Vanguard system to determine my NS ships... As I think it is still a good system.

The rule can be interpreted either way.
The fuel can do more then just determine "top speed", it is about your Delta-V.
The fueled FTL is about making it so the large nation system cannot simply send a fleet of warships to another system with little cost. By having to worry about the massive mass consumption, you have to worry about a level of infrastructure that makes inter-system invasion impractical.
As for how the FTL works... no, you don't simply just 'go there'. The jump needs to be initiated, and the jump points are the only places that FTL works.

If you do not wish to play with the constraint of being unable to conduct military actions in another system without immediate gain, that's fine.

The rule can be interpreted either way.
The fuel can do more then just determine "top speed", it is about your Delta-V.
The fueled FTL is about making it so the large nation system cannot simply send a fleet of warships to another system with little cost. By having to worry about the massive mass consumption, you have to worry about a level of infrastructure that makes inter-system invasion impractical.
As for how the FTL works... no, you don't simply just 'go there'. The jump needs to be initiated, and the jump points are the only places that FTL works.

If you do not wish to play with the constraint of being unable to conduct military actions in another system without immediate gain, that's fine.

Yes, initiating jump and everything, I was just simplifying my definition...

I was hoping for multiple systems, not just two...

But anyways, have fun. I look forward to reading the rps.

Yes, initiating jump and everything, I was just simplifying my definition...

I was hoping for multiple systems, not just two...

But anyways, have fun. I look forward to reading the rps.

Initially, just two. The Big Nation and Small nation systems. Until i can actually make a map there are not any. Any help you can provide would be nice.

Also, though you may not like the mass consumption rule for jump initiation, I still urge you to play. If all you wanted was trade or exploration, that is hardly hampered by the need to provide mass for consumption. As you can see from the discussion in the thread, solutions have already been proposed to make trade simple.

Initially, just two. The Big Nation and Small nation systems. Until i can actually make a map there are not any. Any help you can provide would be nice.

Also, though you may not like the mass consumption rule for jump initiation, I still urge you to play. If all you wanted was trade or exploration, that is hardly hampered by the need to provide mass for consumption. As you can see from the discussion in the thread, solutions have already been proposed to make trade simple.

I'll think about it... one of the first things I need to do is sit down and start building ships.

I'll think about it... one of the first things I need to do is sit down and start building ships.

Indeed. I think you'll like it.

Any progress being made on the map(s)?

Any progress being made on the map(s)?

No. The one thing I really need help, and i receive no help.

We, need, a damned system map. MS-Paint won't do it. And for the last time, my computer is not going to handle anything better, so stop demanding I pirate Photoshop everybody. If i had the money for photoshop I'd buy a computer that could handle it and pirate photoshop anyway.

Just need maps that can show everything at true scale as well as month by month positions of all the planets.

No. The one thing I really need help, and i receive no help.

We, need, a damned system map. MS-Paint won't do it. And for the last time, my computer is not going to handle anything better, so stop demanding I pirate Photoshop everybody. If i had the money for photoshop I'd buy a computer that could handle it and pirate photoshop anyway.

Just need maps that can show everything at true scale as well as month by month positions of all the planets.

I have photoshop. So how do you want the map? (Ive been a bit busy lately with 5 tests this week...)

Well, as you know, I don't have photoshop. So I have no idea if it will actually help... but here is what we need.

Central sun. White F type star. Orbits at .3 AU, .6 AU, .9AU, 1.4AU, asteroid belt at 2 AU, then more orbits at 2.5 AU, 3 AU, 3.9 AU, 5 AU, 6.1 AU.

Lemme see what you do with that.

Well, as you know, I don't have photoshop. So I have no idea if it will actually help... but here is what we need.

Central sun. White F type star. Orbits at .3 AU, .6 AU, .9AU, 1.4AU, asteroid belt at 2 AU, then more orbits at 2.5 AU, 3 AU, 3.9 AU, 5 AU, 6.1 AU.

Lemme see what you do with that.

ok, its gonna take me a bit because I have to deal with tests upon tests and a citywide Warhammer 40K tournament as well as getting some decent clothing for a date on VDay (apparently wearing a Led Zepplin shirt isn't romantic attire :) ) but I should have something up by Monday. Ill just do a basic drawing with the 9 planets and asteriod belt.

I have looked over the fusion drives stuff over and over again... and I found something I don't like.

Using a standard binary plasma drive on a 10,000 ton ship (cruiser size):

To get 1g worth of thrust you need to put 2,500 tons of the ship into the engine. That is fine.

However, calculating fuel costs indicate that you use 2,880 tons of fuel per day... which makes it so that one day's worth of fuel + the drive, takes up half the ship.

Which means that you need constant refueling... which means that a vessel cannot stray farther than a day's journey away from a source of refueling... which to me is stupid. Good luck with this system, but I won't be joining.

For my own uses I'm going to say that the fuel drain is per day, then per hour. That way I can keep a vessel fueled for a little over a month for 40% of its overall tonnage. Which to me, is more realistic.

I have looked over the fusion drives stuff over and over again... and I found something I don't like.

Using a standard binary plasma drive on a 10,000 ton ship (cruiser size):

To get 1g worth of thrust you need to put 2,500 tons of the ship into the engine. That is fine.

However, calculating fuel costs indicate that you use 2,880 tons of fuel per day... which makes it so that one day's worth of fuel + the drive, takes up half the ship.

Which means that you need constant refueling... which means that a vessel cannot stray farther than a day's journey away from a source of refueling... which to me is stupid. Good luck with this system, but I won't be joining.

For my own uses I'm going to say that the fuel drain is per day, then per hour. That way I can keep a vessel fueled for a little over a month for 40% of its overall tonnage. Which to me is more sci-fi.

It doesn't require 2,880 tons of fuel per day, it requires that much fuel to reach a certain top-speed. A ship could go use half of its fuel and cruise at half-speed indefinitely, until it is affected by another force (more use of thrusters, or gravity).

It doesn't require 2,880 tons of fuel per day, it requires that much fuel to reach a certain top-speed. A ship could go use half of its fuel and cruise at half-speed indefinitely, until it is affected by another force (more use of thrusters, or gravity).

Then I must be reading this thing wrong. I'm not a technical person, so I must be misunderstanding how this all works. Is the fuel used only to get at a certain speed and then coast?

Then I must be reading this thing wrong. I'm not a technical person, so I must be misunderstanding how this all works. Is the fuel used only to get at a certain speed and then coast?

Fuel is only used to increase velocity in a certain direction. Once the wanted speed and heading is achieved, the engines are turned off and it continues to move at that heading and speed because of inertial forces.

Fuel is only used to increase velocity in a certain direction. Once the wanted speed and heading is achieved, the engines are turned off and it continues to move at that heading and speed because of inertial forces.

Ok... then the fuel system works pretty well.

However, now I have to figure out how long it takes to accelerate to reach maximum speed in a given instance.

The thing I need to have done so I can figure out how the design system works, is to have someone design a basic FTL capable, military class, cruiser class ship (10,000 tons), without the extra FTL fuel costs that you guys decided to need.

I also need explanations at every stage of the building. How the whole speed system works, and all that. It would be increadibly helpful for me, and others that wish to join.

The thing I need to have done so I can figure out how the design system works, is to have someone design a basic FTL capable, military class, cruiser class ship (10,000 tons), without the extra FTL fuel costs that you guys decided to need.

I also need explanations at every stage of the building. How the whole speed system works, and all that. It would be increadibly helpful for me, and others that wish to join.

The FTL fuel needs is simply mass to be consumed. Doesn't have to be any specific fuel like the fusion drives. There is really no difference between our ships and non-powered FTL ships.

How the speed system works? Thrust provides acceleration. In an environment with no gravity or material drag, speed remains constant. Only by countering the thrust with thrust in another direction do you slow down.

You keep thinking of it from a standard viewpoint, where if the engines are shut off then you slow to a stop. YOU DO NOT STOP WHEN THE ENGINES DIE IN SPACE! Not just yelling at any one person, I am also yelling at every damn sci-fi writer who make spaceships work like airplanes.

That is all there is to it. Use almost half the fuel to get to top speed (that may take one to three days) and then most of what is left slowing down as you near your destination.

I am also yelling at every damn sci-fi writer who make spaceships work like airplanes.

For example?

That is all there is to it. Use almost half the fuel to get to top speed (that may take one to three days) and then most of what is left slowing down as you near your destination.

Thanks for clearing some of that up... just two questions:

How much is 'half of the fuel'? How much time does it take to accelerate to top speed? An example would be nice.

I am also yelling at every damn sci-fi writer who make spaceships work like airplanes.

For example?

Star Wars, all the fighter craft move like fighter planes. Star Trek, a ship loses power it slows to a stop. And there are many minor sci-fi that do the same thing.

Thanks for clearing some of that up... just two questions:

How much is 'half of the fuel'? How much time does it take to accelerate to top speed? An example would be nice.

Half of the fuel is half of the fuel. 50% of the fuel you are carrying. As long as you are accelerating, you can continually go faster. What you want to do is not use all your fuel going ever faster and save part of it for slowing down. And to be on the safe side, most craft won't use up all the fuel, and will have 5% left at the end of the trip.

The game book does give examples, as well as a step by step method for ship construction. Start at the beginning and work your way forward.