NationStates Jolt Archive

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Office of the Supreme Allied Commander

Viscount-ania, DMG (January 12, 2001) - A year removed from the announcement that the Dominion will begin researching into the creation and use of a military force composed of genetically cloned soldiers, we have come to realize it is a hot-bed of discussion and a topic where nearly everyone has an opinion. Thus we have decided to open an international discussion on the matter. This discussion is open to all without prejudice, but please remember this is a discussion and not a forum to slam another nation.

Though we realize that we are still years away from even beginning the production of cloned soldiers, we feel that there are many important questions to be asked, discussed, and possibly answered as well as many more we have not even thought of. We also realize the extreme financial and production burden upon our nation once such a plan begins - it will cost trillions to build and maintain as well as dutiful workers and careful attention paid to the produced beings. However, this is to be a discussion of moral issues as well as certain other genetic possibilities.

A few questions we have thought of and wish for international opinions on follow:

Is it morally or ethically okay (wrong, right, neither, mixed) to produce clones?
-Note that the templates are willing subjects to be cloned.

Is it morally, ethically, and legally okay to indoctrinate young clones and force them to serve in the military for a specific number of years?
-Note that military can be anything from frontline soldier to mechanic, though does not include officer classes.

Should former military clones who have served their time be allowed to join regular society once out of the military? If not, what should be their fate?

Is it moral, ethical, and/or possible to genetically alter DNA to increase the necessary military attributes to the fullest of human potential?*

Is it moral, ethical, and/or possible to alter or neutralize certain areas of the brain so that the clones do not yearn for certain passions (i.e. anything from love to baseball), freedom from service, or a greater future? - Ignore

Is it possible to isolate the DNA sequences responsible for our maturation and alter them so that the body and mind mature more rapidly?

Will indoctrinating and surrounding the clones during their raising with the ideas of complete loyalty to the nation keep all of them from becoming rebellious or deserters?

*OOC Note: I am not looking to create giant mutant hybrids or Kraven's Sardukar... just normal human beings who are genetically predisposed to being great military soldiers.

These are put a few of the questions that we wish to discuss. Please contribute your views and opinions on the matter so that we may fully explore the possibilities and options open to us. Remember that these are just some base questions and we would love to hear other questions as well as in-depth analysis.


The year is 2001; one year after the military announced the creation of the GMT, a research body into the creation of a class of cloned soldiers. Now, with moral, ethical, and practical questions confronting the nation and public consciousness, the Dominion has opened a conversation on the matter of genetic production of human beings for the purpose of military service.


[ooc: Please be serious with your comments and don't just answer yes or no to any question - this is to be a discussion, so please offer a sentence or two at the very least explaining your position and reasoning. Also, please don't attack** cloning or its "impossibility." **Except it is a reasoned response to the moral or ethical questions. Finally, I know there are nations out there that use genetically produced soldiers (such as Kraven and AMF, I believe), but please don't come in saying "Yes, everything works perfectly and we just eliminate their questioning... they are loyal to our commands" - this is 2001, before any of that likely occurred.]
[Note: Italicized sections are not part of the official release, but rather a narrative summary of the events.]

OOC: Not sure if it need be out-of-character here or not...

Well then, welcome to the club, I guess.

Just as a curiosity, what capabilities do you intend to look into, i.e. augmenting any physical abilities or the like? Out of Character knowledge, of course.

cool. Any intentions to compete with the Kraven Capital Police or Automagfreek Sentinels?

OOC: Not sure if it need be out-of-character here or not...

Well then, welcome to the club, I guess.

Just as a curiosity, what capabilities do you intend to look into, i.e. augmenting any physical abilities or the like? Out of Character knowledge, of course.
OOC: This thread is completely IC as should be everyone's views that are expressed here.

The capabilities I am looking into are not supposed to make the clone a super soldier freak with 100/1 eyesight, the strength of a bull, and the speed of a gazelle. Just a top-notch soldier with everything that entails (most of which will be gained through education such as tactics, weapon skills, etc). At the same time, the templates I will be using (not to be discussed here) will be greatly superior than the average human and will be completely devoid of defect and disease.

cool. Any intentions to compete with the Kraven Capital Police or Automagfreek Sentinels?
OOC: No. I am sorry, but these are exactly the kind of comments I do not wish to have in this thread. I don't want any "nice jobs, hope to see you in the future, wanna fight" type of comments. This is purely for the discussion of the moral, ethical, physical, and practical concerns of cloning.

Super soldiers are pointless. Waste of money, and a decent training and conditioning program can produce an effective soldier at a fraction of the cost. An example alot of people who use super soldiers is that they have no fear.

Um, no.

You can't repress fear, as fear, as stupid as it sounds, is an effective way of keeping a soldier (an investment in equipment and training) alive on a battlefield. A genetic uber soldier (who is just as vunerable to a bullet as a normal one, no matter how much LOL GENETIC WANKING you put into the finished product) who fears nothing will take unnessecary risks, resulting in a higher death rate, which wastes your expensive soldiers like toilet paper.

In addition, soldiers who lack emotions like this will be unable to function in civilian life, giving the country they serve the economic disadvantage of having people who sit around waiting for the next war, and little else.

Now, the pratical limitations of cloning an army of uber soldiers. Cloning involves lots of money to create unpractical but good looking science projects. Hundreds of embryoes are thrown away to produce a single working product. While this attrition can be brought down by mass production, the hit-miss rate will still prevent creating large amounts of working clones.

In short, clones are impractical to produce in large numbers, nor do they make an effective alternative to normal human beings.

Thank you for your contribution to this discussion, though you seem to have missed a very important point we have made. We are not creating super soldiers... just creating cloned soldiers from genetically superior (than the average human) soldiers.

Furthermore, we did not say we want to repress fear. We said thoughts of rebellion, disloyalty, and the like. (We are not doing genetic uberwanking...)

You have a very valid and interesting point about not being able to function post-service, but is that really so? By removing some emotions (though this is just an idea and in no way certain) it wouldn't affect their ability to work in a factory or the like. I believe this is a point that needs further discussion.

We already know that it will cost a lot of money, time, and effort as well as having a low rate of success... this is not necessary to discuss.

[ooc: THIS IS NOT ABOUT UBER-SUPER SOLDIERS!]

If your quest is to alter the psychology of your soldiers, to be indoctrinated into the mind-frame of a discipline that removes the thought of rebellion, you ought to consider drugs instead of genetics. Genetics offers only a template design for the biological creature that exists from its confines. The psychological aspects of the being is most developed through experiences. While indeed its disposition is affected principally by its genetic tendencies to revolt or to submit, to what to revolt against or to submit is primarily the habit of its environs.

Even then, if you are able to manage to quell these tendencies, they are simply that. It is entirely seemly that an army that is immune to rebellion will still eventually revolt, due to numerous factors. Considering the argument from the naturalist point of view, if it should prove that to revolt is favored by selection forces, it will be hard for your scientists to develop any sort of genetic regime to treat this problem. In fact, it would be much better for your scientists to develop methods to mitigate the selection factors that make the tendency to revolt more likely.

In addition, if you manage to generate such variants, there is also the threat that random mutations will void the countless expense that your government will have had to pay in order to sustain this project. Even if development procures the proper genetic sequence for a gene that reduces the tendency to revolt [and likewise the opposite, to increase the tendency to submit], a mutation can simply erase its effect or even to reverse it completely.

As such, we can only offer this advice: instead of developing a regime set to generating variants that are radically immune to revolt factors, target the factors that incite these tendencies to erupt. We insist that this will cost much, but in comparison, it will be must cheaper than maintain a genetic breed. In addition, its rate for success is much higher, since it allow your government to utilize regular citizens and persons instead of specialized persons for the same purpose. And please do note that these suggestions apply likewise for most any other genetic regime program, as genetics only induce tendencies, which in any other circumstance can prove to be altered by environmental stimuli [a person with brown hair can be environmentally-induced to have unpigmented hair despite having the genetic disposition to having brown hair].

We hope that this review helps you draw your conclusions for your future research and development programs.

[I can go on about the moral and ethics, but if you're economically stingy country, this ought to stop you anyway...]

We thank the nation of Fedin for their detailed and thoughtful input, much of which we will take into consideration.

You seem to have focused most of your discussion on the point about eliminating rebellious tendencies. It seems to us that the easiest way of eliminating this chance is through their environmental upbringing rather than through any other scientific means. We have also decided to adopt a precaution, though it will remain classified.

Thank you for your input.

As a result, we have decided that the issue over eliminating rebellious tendencies is closed.

However, another question, though highly hypothetical and mainly due to scientific curiosity, has arisen. Is it possible to isolate the DNA sequences responsible for our maturation and alter them so that the body and mind mature more rapidly?

[ooc: How many times do I have to say it... money and material is not the problem or point of discussion.]

Then you might want to copy great soldiers from the past-- try to get Audie Murphy's or Musashis dna. It might make for an interesting RP. They certainly wouldn't look like your typical supersoldier.

Well, the ethics now :D

[ooc: fedin - not fredin...]

If you wish to disregard the money and material altogether [not to mention the commitment of time], we are now presented with a dilemma of biological distinctions. As far as we are concerned, a human normally has a gestation period of approximately 38 weeks [9.5 months], and a maturation period ranging from about 12 years to 20 years. The human mind progresses at different stages of comprehension, with full maturation set at about 14 years. To introduce a genetic sequence that reduces the maturation and gestation of a normal human would not be impossible [albeit expensive, but that has been ruled out of the picture already] - there are common genetic encoding regions that trigger various developmental processes in the embryo. They are common to all animals [except sponges...] and are influential in determining how and when the body develops into its various stages. Simply replacing the Hox sequences with those that allow a more rapid response and maturation period would theoretically allow you to develop humans as quickly mice can spurt out babies [according our charts, mice have gestation period of 21 days and maturation period of about 8 weeks, albeit a shortened life expectancy, mostly due to metabolism though...].

However, this raises an interesting debate nonetheless - if a human subjected to such mutations were to exist, would it be a human? Genetically, it wouldn't be Homo sapiens, since the genetic variety that is Homo sapiens would be incompatible with this variant. Biologically, we cannot deduce, as we would not be able to determine how it would function. Sociologically, we cannot imagine what sort of castes it might accrue. In addition, modifying Hox sequences without having adequately determined how they will act in humans could create situations complicating process of development - developing legs when one ought to develop lungs, and vice versa. However, what still remains is an existential question - is it a human that is being borne? What can we conclude of this being - if it is human or not? If it isn't human, how should this new species be perceived? Would we be breeding the seeds for future conflict between these variants and their progenitors? How could we integrate these variants into society? Should we? If it is human, how can we deal with the inevitable segregation of the proliferate minority over the majority [it is unlikely that in any circumstance that these variants will be able to breed with regular humans, which means that you'd better have females for them as well...]? Other questions will come with this exposition of the genetic manipulations, as inevitably unforeseen consequences will arrive, and we will realize them perhaps only when they do confront us. But for the moment, we will be satisfied with these questions of the existence of the human and what the human is made to be.

Thus leading us to this point - if you intend to make soldiers that breed quickly, why use humans as the starting template? It is much easier - practically, ethically, and otherwise economically - to use another species as a template and develop your soldiers from them. It is possible that it is more defensible to use a species that is not as intelligent as humans and use them. Immediately, the ethics of comparing human populations of these variants is eliminated - although your local PETA occult won't like it anyway, but you can only please so many people before you decide to abandon the whole project, which won't satisfy your planners with high expectations on this project. So mitigate the ethics - use a different species.

OOC: Sounds a little like the Genom soldiers from Metal Gear Solid, any relation?
I don't know much about genetics and I'm rather sure that the world as a whole doesn't yet. To the best of my knowledge we're still not sure how genetics play a part in personality or character, so you could probably go with saying "My scientists have isolated the genetic code that is responsible for making a good soldier, this coding has been implanted into members of our armed forces to increase their performance." I think it isn't unreasonable to do so so long as you've put in the time and money so that it isn't a deus ex machina.

I also agree with Fedin, you could make soldiers who bred and matured faster, just look at how quickly people mature and a re born in the modern world. Once again just put in time and money into a research project to find what is responsible for people maturing faster and them implement it.

Personally I think that under the correct situations anyone can mature by the time they're sixteen, maybe not fully phsyically but if they've had training and exercise they should still be in good enough shape, IF they are put into the right situations I think they have no choice but to grow up.
Although the moral and ethical ramifications of forcing these young people to grow up might be considered unsound.
So basically if you found the genetic traits for fast maturity and then made the soldiers go through a series of events that force them to mature psychologically I think you could pump out soldiers quite quickly.

ooc: Once again I will ask everyone to keep their comments IC ONLY!
Sorry about misspelling your name, Fedin - it has been corrected. Also, thank you for all this input.

We are now indeed looking to create a faster maturation process, but nothing the likes of what you speak of in a matter of weeks. We feel that such a development, as pointed out by your fine scientists, could be harmful to the development and maturation of the human body. However, we were thinking of speeding the development process along to somewhere in the range of five to ten years, giving both the body and mind focused time to develop.

I believe that we would still consider them human beings (let alone homo sapiens), especially with a time frame around half the normal maturation speed as opposed to a hundredth.

As to your final point, it is for the very reason that humans are intelligent that we must use them as the template for our future soldiers. Animals of lesser intelligence would not be fit to serve in complex battle where intellectual, tactical, and surgical intelligence is necessary. However, if we were to somehow genetically modify the animal to have increased intelligence comparable to a human, then there would be hardly a difference in the problems we face. Once a being gains complex thought and sentience, all of the other baggage comes along with it and no longer do they only rely on instinct, but emotion, feeling, mood, and all of the other factors.

Again, we thank you for your input... with this knowledge and discussion we are more fully planning our genetic reproduction process.

If anyone else has anything to say or a new issue about this topic to speak of, please do so.

When we were almost overrun by the second VODAIS plague, we modified dogs into supersoldiers. This proved to be a much safer and effective symbiosis than normal human soldiers. Dogs were used because of their natural ability to sense plague zombies, and other problems. They are also excellent hunters, very good for security checkpoints-- they can find contraband much easier, can hear quite well. We had to improve their sight considerably.

Variant strain 1 was a larger slightly more intelligent dog, with sharper senses, and a stronger immune system capable of taking down and sensing zombies and vampires quite effectively. It is not a human supersoldier in any sense, but a bigger, stronger, more intelligent dog.

Variant strain 2 Is a bipedal dog about 2 meters in height. This was a desperate attempt by scientists to develop a more adept soldier capable of fighting at night in a jungle or forest setting against monstrous creatures. Enhanced musculature, stronger immune systems, a pack instinct, stronger senses, and naturally enhanced weaponry.

That may have worked good and well for fighting "infected zombies," but dogs, as most animals other than apes, chimps, monkeys, have the main problem of not being able to handle a gun... No opposable thumbs you see.

Several years back the Clandonian Corporation tried such a project under the aim of creating a being suitable for special operations. They recieved several hundread billions of government money to create a soldier suitable for the military. The plan was to have soldiers capable of performing without sleep, and to inhibit normal human emotions such as remorse, sympathy and ethics. Attempts to improve natural night vision and objective vision. The Corporation had sucess and managed to produce 1000 such super soldiers but with heavy losses. Estimated failed creations were in the 300,000's and many subject women died in child birth.

The DNA of the some of the finest brains and brawn in Clandonia was used and via selective and screening, gene and vector manipulation. The offspring were pumped with steriods and various hormone injections they managed to develop in half the time. Combined with military education in weapons and combat handling skills. The children were killing humans by the age of 10, trained to fight political prisoners and other criminals. They were without thought and killed countless without an ounce of emotion, this worried many and the military cancelled the programe. We failed to isolate the genes that alter maturation so more hormones were used to dangerous levels that acocunted for the high cancer rates within some specimens. These soldiers would not be allowed to venture into normal life, they would remain until they were killed or terminated as it would be far to dangerous to allow such unstable individuals into society.

Eventually when the Corporation fled the nation under the new current administration then their project was uncovered. Underground hospitals with thousands of beds, designed to breed an army using thousands of slave women captured from Clandonian military campaigns. We estimate that some 400,000 women died in the project with over 300,000 still born or aborted embryos. Most were kept in store for research and evaluation, it was a site that had never ever been seen before the horrifying numbers made the labs look like something of a sci-fi horror film. Empty used beds, sheets covered in blood and rooms full of medical stores. They had plans to create over 100,000 of these super soldiers. There were also remains of Kraven cloning technology which Corporation scientists had been trying to adapt for their own use but were interupted. What they did try and acomplish was what they took to the former remains of Galation were our inteligence suggests they are trying to continue their work using countless numbers of women captured from the Corporations little activies of slave trading.

If you could see the remains and what the Corporation did, they go beyond the normal moral and ethical grounds of humanity. Clandonia would participate in such a programe but with stricter controls and not forcefully impregnate the many hundreads the Corporation used.

We at the Genetic Military Taskforce thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion without thoughtful and interesting points and views. This has been a great deal of help to our project.

At this time, we are going to more fully define the parameters of the project and hope to begin research and construction on the facilities soon.

Thus, while we no long require input, we are leaving this forum open for future discussions on the international stage about this topic.