NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC:
Yes, yes I've recently bought up on battle rifles and other small arms.
This however is a different case.
For a weapon that is to be so widely used I'd prefer it if I could make my own, but hey, I don't know a lot about weapon design, this is where you guys come in.

The Uldarion Weapons Development Agency has released a statement, a one-hundred billion dollar contract for a new battle rifle for the army.
Now this rifle needs to be good, as you'd expect for the money but also I'm post-modern so it'll have to be good by PMT standards.
Secondly this weapon is to be for my uses only, so whoever makes this I'd like to not offer to anyone else and also I'd like the production rights as otherwise there'd be a lot of annoyances with ordering new weapons and such-like.

Stuff I want...
Firstly I'd like it to have a decent rate of fire but not too high speed, stopping power, penetration and accuracy are more important than rate of fire.
Also I would appreciate the weapon to be as durable as possible.I would also like it with a built-in grenade launcher, if this is not possible at least it should have the capacity for such a weapon to be attached without hampering the firing of the weapon.
Also I'd like it for variants to be produced, a carbine form and an extended range model.

Aside from the money the party that takes up the offer will likely have a bright future as a weapons designer for Uldarious' other small-arms.
Right now, depending on the fighting Corps my soldiers will either be equipped with Otagia's M25 HV rifle (I think this may have been replaced by the m26...) or Carbandia's Wyvern.

So...any takers? Well sort out the IC business later.
Is my pricing okay? I figured a hundred billion was quite a lot for a single series, but I intend to make it my new years present to my self and wanted the rifle to be very high quality as well.

Any questions? Just ask, but I don't know a lot about weapon design.

Bump

Bump-o-tron

Firstly I'd like it to have a decent rate of fire but not too high speed, stopping power, penetration and accuracy are more important than rate of fire.
Also I would appreciate the weapon to be as durable as possible.I would also like it with a built-in grenade launcher, if this is not possible at least it should have the capacity for such a weapon to be attached without hampering the firing of the weapon.
Also I'd like it for variants to be produced, a carbine form and an extended range model.

NOTICE: This is to be a PMT weapon
Curently using: M25 or Chardan Arms Wyrvern

Wait... didn't I sell you some CM-26s earlier?

Okay, in order now...


6.5 to 6 mm bullet diameter, with a mass around 120 grains. You want to get a pretty high velocity (longer 'point blank range'), and since actions are limited to about 60 mm (including bullet), you'll want something with high pressure.
Cased are more durable in combat, 'electric guns' are notorious lab queens in MT, and might be somewhat not a problem by PMT, since almost everybody likes batteries. Anything that can mount an underbarrel grenade launcher works fine, but I guess you want a computer aided sight.
Not much to add there.


Additional: Since rate of fire isn't an issue for you, what would the great advantage be to use caseless ammunition? (Other than wieght savings and potentially massive muzzle velocities)

I also suggest giving NS Draftroom a look, since it appears this thread isn't getting many comers.

Mostly, your requested gun design looks like an M-22 from Otagia... Except it might fire cased rounds (which I believe Otagia offers as an 'Export' model).

No, Im not going to make you a design.
You can declare what you want, and those who see it may reply with their view of how to best achieve those requirements.
And some of them will still try selling you something you don't want.

Me? I'll just point you in a direction and let you go off with you own ideas.
(since if I develop it it'll be most likely sitting in the front window of my storefront)

Firstly:
What do you have?
What do you lack?
What are you replacing?
(entire ground combat and combined arms spectrum)
You may answer with equipment catagories or capabilities.

I ask this because by PMT the infantry man becomes a weapons system in itself.
With the gun merely being a component, like the main gun of an MBT...

2nd:
Traning:
Large conscript army?
Small, silent but deadly specialists?
Bio-engineered troops?
Robots/cyborgs?
Mechs/battlesuits?
Well trained or poorly trained? (be honest)

How much training (or more correctly, lack of) must be compensated for with equipment features?
How many battlefield improving features (force multipliers) can be reasonably carried?

*The CM-26 fits the needs of my mass conscript army quite well, it has a massive PBR, excellent terminal ballistics properties, and can swap between pinpoint accuracy or massive sustained ROFs, and is durable yet versitile, yet doesn't use anything fancy, it just gets the job done.

Introducing the all new AR-34 rifle
AR-34 HTSUX Rifle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/grunt74/NS1/ar34.jpg

Name: AR-34 High Tensile Super Uber Xtreme)(HTSUX) Rifle
Designed by: Phoenix Dynamix INC., Advanced Concepts Dept.
Caliber: 7.92mm ball
Action:single shot or 3 round burst or full auto
Total Weight: 10.5lbs
Range: ~1000 meters
ROF: 500-6500 rounds per minute adjustable
Capacity 40 rounds magazine
The AR-34 line has no recoil, no sound, no heat, no gunpowder, no visible firing signature (muzzle flash), and no stoppages or jams of any kind. It is a electrically-powered centrifuge weapon incorporating revolutionary new technology to shoot its spherical projectile at a speed of about 8000 fps. The 40 shot magazine contains enough battery power and projectiles to last for 40 shots, but additional electrical power is retained amongst the power coils for several hours, meaning after you fired say 5 mags you would have enough electrical energy stored up to fire an additional 40 shots without battery power. Variants with rail system and other features will be made along side the basic variant:cool:

^
I believe my point has been proven...

OOC: Well, I'm toying with a gyrojet "rifle" on the Draftroom right now, which would make a rather nifty PMT assault rifle. Slight problems at close ranges (read: bullet won't break the skin at 1 meter), but at long ranges, it's very nice. Underslung GL/shotty is integral to give it some punch at close range. While I can't guarantee I'll sell it only to you (it's shiny!), it seems pretty good. Oh, and it works underwater/in a vacuum as well. Shiny!

Also toying with a concept I found online. Gauss rifle with underbarrel "death frisbee" launcher. Bit tricky to get the trajectories down with the frisbees, and it might be a bit more PMT than some people like, but again, it's quite shiny. ;)

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/774/ac545cvh8.png (http://imageshack.us)
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4362/ac545vn3.png (http://imageshack.us)
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7201/ac545lnf5.png (http://imageshack.us)

Designation: AC-545 (Ангел Смерти - 5.45mm x 39)
Calibre: 5.45mm x 39 (Rifle), 35mm x 57 HE (Grenade)
Action Type: Gas-operated, Rotating Bolt
Weight(Loaded): 8.9 lb
Maximum Effective Range: 957 Meters
Rate of Fire:750 Rounds Per minute
Fire Modes: Fully Automatic, Semi Automatic
Designer:Inehvnav Arsenals Inc.
Feed:32 Box Magazine, 75 Round Drum

Features:
The AC-545 is extremely reliable. Throw it in dirt it will fire, if its full of sand no problem just fire it and all the sand will fly out. During the testings 10 AC-545s where buried 10 feet underground for a month, then they where dug up all rusted shut, the bolts where kicked back by the boots of soldiers and they fired off the entire magazine flawlissly. This weapon will work in the Highest and lowest temmpuratures, it will work in any climate, because the materials it is constructed off do not contract and expand when the weapon become to cold or to hot, none of the materials absorb water so do not worry about rust, the inside of the barrel is chrome plated to ensure it will not rust,also the barrels are chrome plated to ensure long life. The weapon is constructed of steel and synthetic furniture. The round it fires is extremely lethal. Once the round enters the flesh it explodes causing massive trama which in turn will cause extreme loss of blood and heart failure. This round is garanteed to kill a human target if it impacts any where but the limbs. If the round hits the limbs in most cases the limb will be blow off (We tested on pigs). It can fire a large variety of ammunitions including; 5.54mm x 39 JHP, 5.45mm x 39 AP, 5.45mm x 39 Talon (Think of a super hollow point), and 5.45mm x 39 Magnum. The grenade launcher is so simple it will never fail, but it is extremely effective it has a range of up to 545 meters and can fire incindeary rounds, high-explosive rounds, and bunker busting rounds to take out a dug in enemy. This weapon does not require much training to operate or care for and is extremely inexpensive to produce (around $125 for each unit). Unlike most weapons of this type it has very good accuracy and a long range ( even longer with magnum rounds ). You can engage enemies from distance unbelieveable for a assault rifle. The recoil of the AC-545 is very minimal due to a high power buffer spring,and the high quality compensator, the weapon is easy to control on fully auto. We hope you pick the best design that suites your needs.

OOC: Well, I'm toying with a gyrojet "rifle" on the Draftroom right now, which would make a rather nifty PMT assault rifle. Slight problems at close ranges (read: bullet won't break the skin at 1 meter), but at long ranges, it's very nice. Underslung GL/shotty is integral to give it some punch at close range. While I can't guarantee I'll sell it only to you (it's shiny!), it seems pretty good. Oh, and it works underwater/in a vacuum as well. Shiny!

Also toying with a concept I found online. Gauss rifle with underbarrel "death frisbee" launcher. Bit tricky to get the trajectories down with the frisbees, and it might be a bit more PMT than some people like, but again, it's quite shiny. ;)

Why not try firing rockets from a regular cartridge case?
Kinda like the old dart/flechette rounds from the SPIW.
Only rocket proppelled, and given a more 'conventional' inital chage?

6.5 x 65 mm telescoped rocket darts?
(Cartridge diameter >25.4 mm?)
(Case optional)

I've considered it, but then there's a pretty good chance of damaging the jets on the gyrojet, and rifling is out. Best option (at least in my opinion) is to crank up the burn on the rocket, getting as much initial speed out of it as possible, switching to a slower burn later to keep it spinning and in the air.

Gyrojet shotgun slug?
1 Ga?
No, wait, that's your 60 mm gun...
Still, packing a large conventional 'starter' charge helps...
(doesn't seem to hurt the RPG-7 much...)

RL invented this telescoping grenade/bullet...
Think it would be feasable to slap in a rocket motor and some fins, then wad it inside of an oversized -bottlenecked- cartridge?

Now I'm typing crazy stuff, these bullets are gonna get rather heavy...

And I'm trying to imagine how long an army with the AC-545 would last in a full blown PMT war... It's nice for MT terrorists though...

*looks again, dusts off idea*
35 mm base cartridge diameter.
58 mm long
Bullet/rocket...
7.26 x 45 mm telescoping rocket-dart
Expanding stabalizer snaps off upon impact, and fragments rapidly tumble afer impact, causing massive trauma damage.

Action: telescoped Roller delay blowback (gas operation prone to fouling)
Configuration: Bullpup or conventional?
Cartridge type: cased, high pressure
Sight: Computer aided (help on this Otagia)

Note: should be able to place 20-30 rounds in a 5.56 x 45 mm M-16 type magazine.

Hmmm, I think you're right Hurty.
As I said, I was offering people money to make me a new weapon not to buy an already existing weapon. If I wanted that I woulda just dropped into your storefronts.

I also suggest giving NS Draftroom a look, since it appears this thread isn't getting many comers.

Will they make me a good weapon there?

Mostly, your requested gun design looks like an M-22 from Otagia... Except it might fire cased rounds (which I believe Otagia offers as an 'Export' model).

I already have some of Otagia's M25's they are OK but I want a more destinctive weapon.

No, Im not going to make you a design.
You can declare what you want, and those who see it may reply with their view of how to best achieve those requirements.
And some of them will still try selling you something you don't want.

As I can see.

Me? I'll just point you in a direction and let you go off with you own ideas.
(since if I develop it it'll be most likely sitting in the front window of my storefront)

I understand, make a good weapon, sell it.


Firstly:
What do you have?

As I said, the weapons that will be replaced will be Otagia's M25 and Carbandia's Wyvern, although since I did buy the rights for the Wyvern it will probably still see duty in my police forces.

What do you lack?
A high-tech high-quality gun that can be made in my own country.

What are you replacing?
(entire ground combat and combined arms spectrum)
You may answer with equipment catagories or capabilities.

This is, so far, just for the main rifle weapon for my infantry.

2nd:
Traning:
Large conscript army?
Small, silent but deadly specialists?
Bio-engineered troops?
Robots/cyborgs?
Mechs/battlesuits?
Well trained or poorly trained? (be honest)

My army is...complicated.
Most of the army is volunteer, about 75% or so, you see a citizen inducted into the armed forces who performs very well may get a genetic enhancement, these stay in the family genetics untill 'watered down' so to speak.

I have a new computer right now so I couldn't give you the exact size of my army, the file is yet to be transferred, I think it's around fifty million armed men, not bad for an economy of over three billion people with a third of the budget going to defence.
The average soldier gets four years of training upon entering the Military Affairs Devision (heeeeey I jsut realised that's MAD as an acronym, gotta change that), plus one year of one hour a day training that is taught in the last year of high school, basic combat stuff.

The other 25% are child soldiers, called Children of Uldarious. You see in my country the government has the power to induct children into the military, they do this to keep about ten million highly trained men to add 'extra steel' to the men.
These men are taken at no later than two years and are all given genetic "updates" to bring them up to at least Generation One enhancements, after this they look forward to sixteen years of ten-hour a day training before deployed in battlefields, or less, the average Child sees battle at sixteen. During this time they go through extensive indoctrination and are raised by the state, also if a family exceeds the two child policy without a licence that child is automatically inducted into the Children.

Some of my soldiers do receive mechanical/ cybernetic enhancements but these are rare, all in all perhaps a million men are cyborgs. Genetic enhancements are the norm.
Mechs I find to be rather...impractical ideas. However we do use some of Otagia's battlesuits for First Class Regimental Marshals and members of the Iron Legion fighting corps.
Honestly? My training program is quite good the man focus is to build resilence to the psychological effects of war and to enhance the physical stamina of the soldier, outside of combat skills of course.

How much training (or more correctly, lack of) must be compensated for with equipment features?
I wouldn't say a lot if any.


How many battlefield improving features (force multipliers) can be reasonably carried?

Depends what you mean...

Well, that solves the problem with sights, just use a copy of Otagia's...
(No need for redundant 'iron sights'/reflex sights if your men are trained for 'quick kill' sightless shooting ['instinctive' similar to shooting a bow w/o sights, can get pretty accurate... like shooting moving golf balls with an M-16... or waterfowl with a bow...])

Working on the 'more destructive' requirement.

Something like a rocket assisted 7.62 x 51 in power...
[take the bullet, make it into a rocket dart, shove into a widened case with advanced proppellants]

Muzzle energy would be something between that of a .308, or 6.5 x 55, so full auto is something only augmented troops would want to do. At about 40 meters, KE of projectile may have doubled or tripled, but due to the caliber, this energy will bleed away back to muzzle energy at about 800 meters...

Skip the burst fire option, your men are well enough trained to 'stroke' the trigger on full-auto for 2 and 3 round bursts from what you told me...

Barrel would be smoothbore...

I'm leaning towards a cased round simply because they are that much less liable to go wrong.

These properties also make the gun rather useless in the hands of your enemies...

So now the big question:
Conventional* or Bullpup?
Wood or Synthetic?
*Folding or fixed?
over the barrel bayonet?

*Gives a quick demo of the HM-320 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10796159&postcount=15) and 'triplex' grenades*
Yes, I just tried selling you something you most likely don't want.
But since you are PMT, and the HM-320 is MT, you could use that technology in a fixed to gun type grenade launcher...
Would need a strong rifle though to handle the recoil of shooting a 60 mm mortar shell thuogh...
(which must be considered equal to a 120 mm grenade in recoil)

For some reason, this thing might look like the XM-29 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/OICW.gif), except the grenade launcher is falling-block action...
No, wait, that wouldn't be able to fire mortar shells...

This weapon is sounding cool but would it be practical?

Conventional* or Bullpup?
Whichever you believe would be better.

Wood or Synthetic?
Synthetic, wood is quite, ummm, "scarce" in Uldarious. Unless wood is better....Then I uess I'll have it imported.

*Folding or fixed?
over the barrel bayonet?

I'm sorry if this is two questions, I assume folding would be better.


For some reason, this thing might look like the XM-29, except the grenade launcher is falling-block action...
No, wait, that wouldn't be able to fire mortar shells...

Hmmm, I'd rather it doesn't I do not like the look of that gun. But if it is a must then I'll accept it.

Right now this weapon is soundign quite cool, but would it really be a practical mainstay rifle?

This weapon is sounding cool but would it be practical?
Synthetic, wood is quite, ummm, "scarce" in Uldarious. Unless wood is better....Then I guess I'll have it imported.
I'm sorry if this is two questions, I assume folding would be better.
Right now this weapon is soundign quite cool, but would it really be a practical mainstay rifle?


In order:

Most likely, yes, but you are designing it, not me.
Synthetic is stronger, wood is only used where synthetics are scarce/more expensive (or for those who like parades)
Folding conventional stock with underbarrel GL and over/side-barrel bayonet lugs it is then (bayonet to fit on Picanty rails) -I realized that overbarrel bayonet might get in the way of the sights, but then again, when using the bayonet, sights don't really matter, do they?
It's PMT ain't it? Your frontline troops are physicaly enhanced, and body armor isn't getting weaker...


I do recall that the original Gyrojet had problems, mostly the lack of power at typical combat engagement ranges (often concluded to be les than 50 meters since Project SALVO), and the 'minor' improvement it gave in relation to a conventional bullet (cost effectiveness)

A PMT situation might solve that, as they would continually demand more power and less recoil, and money would be thrown around a bit more even for the slightest advantage.

A lil design to look at...
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg21-e.htm
RL, now expand that technology to PMT grade - apply the idea to assault rifle barrel/chamber cooling and magazine design...

Ballistic considerations:

KESH- Pure lead head, with rocket motor, punches a 60 mm hole into RHA at 40-60 meters (peak KE and penetration). Wieght: 250 grain dart
Standard: thick Steel capped lead bullet, no streamlining, tumbles upon impact, good penetration. Wieght: 235 grain dart
Sniper: Boat tailed KESH, maximum energy retention and range, short range performance is sub par. Wieght: 250 grain dart.
WP: A White Phosphor bullet, creates a 60 to 80 meter long smoke plume, good for covering the advance of your men in a hurry... Wieght: 220 grain dart

Considerations:

If the bullet impacts anything less than 40 meters, the target will have to deal with the burning/smoldering rocket motor, in fragments... Think WP injuries...
The rocket prppellant may create a smoke cloud, giving away your position and preventing aimed full automatic fire. (there are smokeless rocket motors available)
Darts are generally less accurate than conventional bullets at long range (they don't 'lob' well)


Effective range of single shots would be about 500 yards due to less accuracy, but a stray bullet can easily kill an officer as far away as 1200 yards on near flat trajectory while wearing Type II body armor... Making even poorly aimed suppressive fire downright deadly...

And 'beaten zone' suppressive fire is simply awe inspiring...
Just aim a LMG with 200 rounds of Sniper ammo and aim her at enemy HQ 5 Km away and let her rip, 100 of those bullets are bound to hit the tent, and of those, 1 is bound to hit someone worth that box of ammo...

Alright then, I'll take your idea in consideration and unless I can get something really good in a week or so I'll begin trying to design something myself, of course I might need to ask you for advice and I might just head to the draftroom for help as well, this is because I haven't designed anything yet.
Untill then anyone who is willing mmay also post their ideas, maybe they will be better, maybe not, I'll take them into consideration.

For some reason, I think your rifle will look something like the CETME model B or G3...
7.62 x 51 mm cartridge...
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as12-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as60-e.htm
Includes diagram of the telescoped roller delayed blowback action....

It wouldn't take much to make it open bolt only... (just fix the pin to the bolt body), ths lightening the action further and reducing felt recoil...
(this may be a safety issue if the cartridge stovepipes).

So if the draftroom gives any grief over the accuracy and strength of a light roller delayed blowback on a battle rifle, just point them at the G3 [G3-SG1 in particular].

Ading a buffer spring into the telescoping stock to help absorb recoil wouldn't be too hard (though it would have recoil stops to keep the sights from smashing your grunts in the face).

Not surprisingly, they also made a kit to make a G3 esque gun into a belt feeder... (http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg18-e.htm)

Here's my own AR-59 MICW. She may not possess flashy electronic firing mechanisms, smart warheads, or any of that nonsense, but she gets the the job done, and has served me well in many a battle as my standard infantry rifle.

And yes, the pics are from Halo. I'm not crazy about the details of the battle rifle, but it matches what I imagine the rifle to be and provides a visual aid.

AR-59 Modular Infantry Combat Weapon

Frontal View (http://2v2halo2.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/halo2-10.jpg)

Center View (http://www.the-junkyard.net/images/weapons/halo2/battle_rifle_scope.jpg)

Scope View (Ignore all the little doodads) (http://www.republiccommando.net/bootcamp/images/bowscope.jpg)

Designed to be the next generation in infantry combat weapons, the AR-59 is the latest in a long line of Velkyan infantry combat weapons, dating back to the Osean AR-56 OIWC of the early 1990s. This model, a relative departure from the large, expensive weapons fielded by earlier generations of Velkyan soldiers, which were often an unwieldy combination of cannon and rifle, which made close combat handling and field maintenance tedious. The newest rifle, deigned to be flexible, reliable, and relatively cheap, is the brainchild of the weapons engineers at the Southport Long Arms Company, a smaller upstart corporation whose design was chosen over the ARC-4 of the Armalite Solutions Ltd., the usual supplier of small arms to the Velkyan armed forces.

Of course, the center of any rifle is its action, and the one of the AR-59 is designed to be to be both rugged and efficient. For this reason, the AR-59 uses a gas operated rotating bolt system with a short stroke piston, as well as a spacious firing chamber. These allow the weapon to undergo minimal field maintenance and fire accurately and cleanly even the barrel and feed systems are dirty. Of course, an effective reloading action is useless without an effective round to go with it, and the weapons designers at SLAC delivered. Unlike previous Velkyan weapons, which used the standardized (and therefore compromised) 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge, the AR-59 uses the newly minted 6.8x50mm AUDF round, a round which showed great promise in weapons tests by displaying both the knockdown power of the Warsaw Pact 7.62mm round while retaining the accuracy and lower recoil of the 5.56mm. Instead of the newer liquid binary propellants or caseless designs becoming popular in infantry small arms around the world, the SLAC decided to go with a traditional cased design, employing a lightweight alloy casing to compenstate for added weight. Added almost as an afterthought, the weapon also displays a digital ammo counter, linked from magnetic strips (which make contact with the casings to deterimine how many rounds are left in the mag) in the magazine to a ruggized screen a few centimeters long right below the rear of the sight mounting rail, allowing the soldier to check his ammunition load in combat without having to use a weaker polymer magazine, although such magazines are easily affixed.

The most impressive feature of the weapon, however, is its modularity. In concurrence with current Velkyan infantry doctrine, the base model AR-59 is fully modifiable to an individual soldier’s needs, and can be equipped with dozens of accessories, including a strengthened marksman barrel, a 40mm grenade launcher, a 10 gauge shotgun, and a plethora of scopes, imaging devices, and sights. Also, an interesting feature is a small servo attachment at the end of the fore grip with connects with a compatible weapon system to allow the soldier to fire the secondary weapon via the selector switch above the trigger. The weapon also mounts two rails topside, a rail on either side of the fore grip, and one on the fore grip itself. In addition, the fore grip and barrel can be detached with a special field kit and transformed into the AR-59C Commando variant, a shortened weapon used by Special Forces and vehicle crews. The weapon is made of super light alloys and reinforced composite material, giving the weapon a highly light combat (with magazine) weight of just over three kilograms. It is also easily disassembled, and the modularity of the weapon system allows for parts to be swapped between individual weapons easily and effectively. To handle recoil, compensators are built into the butt of the weapon, and it is slightly heavier towards to front to fight muzzle climb.

Specifications:

Type: Modular Infantry Combat Weapon
Name: AR-59
Fire Modes (factory trigger group): Semi-Automatic, 2 Round Burst, Fully Automatic, Special
Caliber: 6.8x50mm AUDF
Action: Gas Operated Rotating Bolt
Propellant: APG Grain
Barrel Length: 520mm
Overall Length: 832mm
Standard Magazine Capacity: 30 round canister (100 round C mags available)
Rate of Fire: 600 RPM sustained fire
Muzzle Velocity: 900 m/s
Maximum Effective Range: 750 meters
Mass without Magazine: Approx. 2.9 kg
Mass with Magazine: Approx. 3.1 kg
Estimated price per unit: $2,200

I must be abscent minded or something...

The roller locking mechanism would prevent premature firing of a stovepiped cartridge, since the bolt face must slam home with full force before it can let the bolt/pin travel those few inches...

So, the only real problem is the one that always plagued open bolt guns...
Unintentional firing due to badly worn trigger shears...
(A problem encountered in both the PPSh-41 and MP-40)

Also, an enemy troop seeing your grunts threatening to shoot someone with a gun with its bolt clearly held open, (something closed blots only do when empty), may cause for some interesting times, as well as bluffing your way with your gun in closed bolt position (empty mag on an open bolt action w/o hold open mechanism [ie pulling trigger w/o ammo])

Issuing a brace of 50 or 100 round drum/quad boxes and six 30 round box magazines would provide ample firepower.

Almost certain the loaded wieght of this weapon will be between 4 and 5 kg...
A belt fed version should wiegh less than 9 kg loaded /w/ 200 rounds...
And yet it has the lethality compatrable to a .50 cal BMG...
Which wieghs 38 kg empty and without tripod...

...But how do I know you won't make your own version of the weapon and sell it on the markets? I mean it's sounding really good but since it does sound so good why haven't you made one yet?

...But how do I know you won't make your own version of the weapon and sell it on the markets? I mean it's sounding really good but since it does sound so good why haven't you made one yet?

I'm strictly MT at the moment.

I invested heavily into standardization of the GASN's guns.
And the cartridge you are using, is FAR from interchangeable with other rifle designs.

Though I do have a single shot equivilant, actually, quite a few, but those are 40 mm grenade launchers...

Edit:
My troops also aren't quite that well trained to use the proposed gun correctly...
(for one, recoil would make the ever handy full auto useless, and my lack of an interface with any advanced sight options)

Okay then Hurty, I think I'll try this out when I have the spare time, maybe tomorrow or thursday, I'll probably be advice quite a lot too.

Okay then Hurty, I think I'll try this out when I have the spare time, maybe tomorrow or thursday, I'll probably be advice quite a lot too.

I still might consider making a 'watered down' version for my own use, when I make the jump to fully PMT and the 6.5 mm PROHT becomes obsloete...

But that'll be awhile...
Since the 6.5 is rather powerful...
Except when assaulting heavy mechs...
But then I'll just whip out the 40 mm grenades...

Okay, before I start the write-up I have two things to do, firstly, I said at the started I didn't want to buy anything. To all those who've posted adds for their products, thank you but I'm not interested.

btw, whats KESH stand for? Kinetic Energy ??? ???

Now Hurty I have several questions these are as follows...

How long/big will this gun be? would it be suitable to have in a carbine mode or should I just look for a SMG instead?

What would be the best general type of ammunition be made out of? Steel? Lead? alloys? Is there some way make it cause extra damage to flesh without damaging penetration ability?

Could you make me a PMT HM-320?

What should I make the gun out of? Bear in mind durability is something I'm after and my men can take the extra weight if they must. I'm thinking something synthetic as you said but whats a good thing?

What ar ethe pros/cons of beltfed vs. Clipfed?

What would be rough figures for maximum range, minimum range, muzzle velocity, max velocity, rate of fire and penetration?

Lastly how could I maximise accuracy?

Also remember that money is not a problem within reasonable bounds.

Sorry for all this, I just haven't tried this before and I want to make sure my gun isn't a flop. Thank you very much Hurty.

KESH, Kinetic Energy Squash Head.
It's a sef-coined term to describe the KE equivilant of HESH/HEP

Simply, it flattens out, and transfers such energy to the plate, that the inside scabs off, rather than trying to penetrate, this type of AP round isn't really limited by penetration, and generally shoots a 'scab' of shrapnel proportional to the thickness of the plate and energy transfered.

Works best against thick hardened homogenous plate. It also has a tendancy to find 'bullet traps' spraying the inside with nearly molten hot lead.

Last I heard of the KESH development was an old 1940's Anti-tank rifle made in Poland.
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It would work as a carbine, muzzle flash and report would be greater.
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The 'standard' round with a thick steel cap and heavy lead base would work well. But if you rally needed potential penetration w/o sacrificing anti personel capacity, place a tungsten ballistic cap behind the center of gravity, the steel cap will peel back and the tungsten cap will dig in perpindicular to the plate.

DU could be used in place of lead or tungsten. Adds incindiary capacity and 'self sharpens', but keep the light steel ballistic cap.
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I haven't considered PMTing the HM-320 underbarrel squad mortar.
As it is break action, and that doesn't really allow for improved feed rate, a computer aided sight and 'smart grenades' would be an add on I guess...
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Synthetics.
Aluminum alloys will be light and will transfer heat quickly and evenly, it also doesn't shatter, but can foul due to carbon buildup.
Chromed and fluted chambers improves relability (fluting aids extraction and cooling, chome makes it store well)
Inside barrel shouldbe made of something hard with good compressive strength, titanium is an option, though it is problematic (as prototype AR15s found) so a standard fluted smoothbore steel barrel will have to serve your men well.
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Belt fed ammo is lighter, as boxes have greater mass to carry any given number of rounds than any belt, belts need to be kept clean and feed smoothly (hence why when operating one solo, people tend to 'feed' the gun with one hand as they fire with the other, or they let a box do this for them)

Clips are cheap, and easy to swap, and reload. They also keep the chamber and ammo cleaner.

A belt fed gun wieghs more, but can fire a much longer burst, as a loder an link belts together for sustained firing... :mp5:
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I don't really know for certain, I guestimated 500 meters would be effective range due to accuracy constraints (momemtum and short travel time keep the dart from devating too much) but I figure it could still kill a full type III grade armored trooper up to 800 meters easy.

I'd use the .308 as a start point for muzzle energy (have to compensate figures for ~100% increse in projectile mass) and the make a scaled chart that doubles or triples this figure by 40 meters from muzzle.

Ballistic coefficient would'nt be any better than the .308 though, since even though it has greater sectional density, it practicly has a parachute behind it to keep it pointing 'sunny side up'.

So optimum impact distance is about 30 to 100 meters. Below 30 meters, the only benifit it would have over the .308 is that it carries rocket fuel behind it, effectively making it explosively tipped.

My suggestion: guess and BS, as reality doesn't seem to matter much in any RP when it comes to small arms... Your enemy will most likely cite inherent inaccuracy to decrease his losses.
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That brings us to the final point: accuracy.

Longer bullet after launch (requires less drag for fin stabalization)
Faster muzzle velocity and shorter rocket delay (still at 40 meters), this prevents windage from messing with you much.
Correcting aim based on visable portion of smoke trail (correcting for windage, counter intuitive)
A bigger bullet (caliber and mass) with more muzzle energy
Longer barrel and more powerful initial charge ('sniper rifle' with 'high power' ammo and designated marksman)

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EDIT:
I did tinker with a full auto HM-320 ish design at one point, to replace the Hurtian RPG-007, which was a pump action RPG-7 I typically had emplaced inside my HT-101s.

The Gubn was supposed to be able to quickly change from auto-muzzleloading mortars and granades form a strip tray or tube, to firing 40 mm grenades from a belt.

The project was abandoned when I developed the 'triplex' grenades'.
I could revive the project in my nation by replacing the automatic action with a hand operated pump action, while keeping the feed system.

Always needed a 'light horse artillery' capability within my nation...
*waves goodbye to the old horse drawn 125 mm mortars*

Excellent, you've already listen the size and weight of ammunition so now the last thing I want to know is how big would this gun likely be?

I must be abscent minded or something...

Issuing a brace of 50 or 100 round drum/quad boxes and six 30 round box magazines would provide ample firepower.

Almost certain the loaded wieght of this weapon will be between 4 and 5 kg...
A belt fed version should wiegh less than 9 kg loaded /w/ 200 rounds...
And yet it has the lethality compatrable to a .50 cal BMG...
Which wieghs 38 kg empty and without tripod...

Excellent, you've already listen the size and weight of ammunition so now the last thing I want to know is how big would this gun likely be?
...

About the size of any other 7.62 x 51 mm assault rifle /w/ Roller delay blowback...
SG-510, CETME, or G-3

Alternitive sources:
USAS-12
AA-12
HK-CAWS
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HK 21/23
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HK PSG1/MSG90
SR-25
AR-10
http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

Heh heh heh, sorry I must have missed that post or forgot or something...

Good news and bad news on my yet to be RPed transition from MT to PMT weapons designs...
...But how do I know you won't make your own version of the weapon and sell it on the markets? I mean it's sounding really good but since it does sound so good why haven't you made one yet?

I still might consider making a 'watered down' version for my own use, when I make the jump to fully PMT and the 6.5 mm PROHT becomes obsloete...

But that'll be awhile...
Since the 6.5 is rather powerful...
Except when assaulting heavy mechs...
But then I'll just whip out the 40 mm grenades...

Mostly I tinkered with the probable success of converting my existing stocks of unused weapons:

Calibers considered:
5.56 mm (deemed too small)
6.5 mm (Being considered)
7.62 mm (deemed impractical)
14.5 mm (Further study)
35 mm (specialty round considered for development)
40 mm (abondoned in favor of project xPGL-40, specialty round considered for development)

Parent rifle -> Prototype designation -> Caliber -> changes required and commonality

CM(G)-2<>xRMG-3<>14.5 x 155 mm<>Replace threads on reciever 90%
CC-35A and B<> xRC-35A <>35 x 203 mm<> Replace action and reciever, 50%
CC-35C<> xRC-35B<> 35 x 203 mm<>Cosmetic 100%
CM-26<> xRM-36 <> 6.5 x 55 mm <> Replace action and reciever. 65%


The most promising developments are the xRC-35A and xRMG-3, which could function as light field artillery and heavy machine guns, but they must compete with the MT xPGL-40 for this task...

Project xRM-36 has a ways to go, since the 6.5 caliber round is rather difficult to improve with rocket propulsion...
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It would be ultamately deemed far simpler to acquire one of your 7.62 mm guns, and convert standard caliber to 7.62 mm...

And it would still have to compete with the pump action 40 mm Grenade mortar launcher (PGL-40) for funding...

The HAP would do well for a conversion to a rocket dart projectile weapon...

I am sorry I didn't get all that, the relevance to me is...?
I'm not being a smart ass, just a little groggy and out-of-it today.
EDIT WAIT: does this mean I shouldn't use a 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge?

I am sorry I didn't get all that, the relevance to me is...?
I'm not being a smart ass, just a little groggy and out-of-it today.
EDIT WAIT: does this mean I shouldn't use a 7.62 x 51 mm cartridge?

No, it's just what my progrees WOULD be like if/when I decide to copy 'your' gun idea...

The reason the PROHT use of a 7.62 mm round was impracticle was that I don't have any weapons that currently use 7.62 mm ammo... So I'd have to make the guns from scratch...

In which case, as stated at the near bottom, would place me in a situation in which I'd be better off just buying the guns directly from you and scrapping the old guns OR keeping my old delapidated guns and trying to make them work in PMT...

To offset this dissadvantage, I turned to using large caliber rocket darts, but these then would suffer great internal competition with the MT project for the PGL-40...

Meaning... All PROHT attempts to copy this gun would fail...
Unless I converted existing stocks of export model HAP-751s...