The War of the Americas OOC thread (Earth V only) [Archive]

United Earthlings

19-12-2006, 04:56

TIny bit wrong with that UE.

Unless your patrols extend to the Panama Canal (Which I doubt SHarina would have allowed), I see no reason why my carrier was 'picked up' by such a partol. Are your patrols spanning the width and bredth of the Caribbean?

Undoubtedly, the answer is 'no', as such patrols would be difficult to maintain.

Which leads me to my next point. Observe.

Note the Panama Canal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Countries-Panama-provinces-2005-10-18-en.png

Now note the reletive distance between Venesuela and Panama: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LocationVenezuela.png

Now note the almoast directly northern-route to the Cayman Islands: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/CaribbeanIslands.png

No where near Venezuela

How big are your patrols?

Now, I believe that the argument has been made aptly on both side sof the fence.

Lets alow the War-mod to decide. Because quite frankly, debating and argument (Over Earth V) tends to cause anger and frusteration, as seen in UE's recent frusteration over my detering measure. (That being the most recent example.)

ALif, lets see some decisions. Unless you are too busy, then surrender your post to another (Nutural) nation. As I stated earlier, my second reccomendation was Samtonia, so I would recommend his appointment should you find yourself unable to fufil your duties...

EDIT: Mmm, just occured to me. What kind of submarines are these? Im not going to pull the "would'ves", the "should'ves", and the "could'ves" on ya, Im just planning for the future.

After all, now that you have revealed that your subs are on patrols (Through the release of the Footage, which somehow shows the Cayman Islands in the background, which is an impossibility), Sharine (Being in command of my fleet) Can use the numerous choppers with my fleet to launch anti-sub operations. If he so chooses.

1. To answer your question in as short an answer as possible. Yes, they span almost the entire Caribbean Sea. They also cover the Atlantic Ocean (with deployments from Spain and Portugal including that of by Venezuela) and to a limited extent the Gulf of Mexico. So, my Patrols are big, very big. Remember, Sharina has large tracts of land and bases I have to watch over. You sailed right through a busy shipping lane for one and two pretty much the heart of the Caribbean. Add up the distance will you from Ven to a spot around a hundred miles (give or take about 10-30 miles) off the Panama Canal. It's not that far for a sub to make the trip, given the subs I use. I got a question for your statement about Sharina not allowing that. How could Sharina not allow it? If, my subs and ships are in international waters, his stopping my ships without due cause or attacking them is an act of war plain and simple. Second, he has to find them and that wouldn't be as easy as it sounds. Finding the ships are not to hard, but finding subs is never easy.

2. Agree with you on the anger and frustration part. However, the war-mod can't decide if (s)he doesn't have all the facts. So, either way there must be a debate. I try my best to keep it civil, yes sometimes emotions get the best of me, but were all human.

3. The sub I specify assigned to watch your fleet in question was an Astute Class Submarine. I acquired the production rights to the subs long ago from the guy who was RPing as Great Britain. Also, I acquired the production rights for the Type 214 Diesel attack submarine from TGSR. The Type 214, I mostly use for local patrol, however in a pinch in can be sent on longer range missions. It does have the range, however it must unlike the Astute which is a Nuclear Attack Boat do most of it's cruising on the Surface. How many of each type each Navy have is stated in my fact book. Also, I can provided links about each of the subs I use.

4. The subs are always on patrol, remember as I stated I have to keep an eye and ear out for any aggressive move by Sharina. The same goes for the ships and aircraft. About, the Cayman Islands footage. You didn't state IC one way or another if you were close to the Islands or not. I just assumed that from the impression you gave of how quick it was for your aircraft and your rigid-inflatable boats (RIB) to attack and then return. To do it in the time frame I got the impression you were doing it the Fleet would of had to been pretty close to the Islands. Also, further out would of given Sharina more time to mount an response considering his ships were patrolling the seas and his aircraft in the Air, just like mine- I would think. Only, he can say what his military is doing for sure. Also, don't forget about Radar.

Now, why Sharina's radar didn't pick you up I can only think of a few ideas. IC reason why is that he has no radar coverage in the area which is good news for me as the war as both you have said has started and would not give him time to build a radar network. OCC- because he wants a war IC just as much as you do and is willing to ignore certain things. Which, I am fine with.

If, you have a problem with the statement made about the Island being able to be seen I can edit my post taking it out. It's not a big deal to me. What matters to me is the picture of your Carrier and the radio transmissions I recorded.

6. First, he or you has to find the subs. Second, I can also do the same thing. I do have a Fleet you know, a pretty nice one as I have been gearing up for war for many many years.

United Earthlings

19-12-2006, 05:42

Redirected from main OCC thread. I've already decided...

That said, my last final is this Thursday, so if you can wait until then, kudos to you. Otherwise, get someone to resolve this.

My personal bias says that while the RUN Venezuela has issued orders for submarine patrols, his ships are not going to patrol waters that are clearly not Venezuelan. If Vineyard's carriers never entered RUN territorial waters, then the RUN has no reason to patrol Vineyardian ships.

I've also realized that there are some floating RPs out there, and as Sharina has said, post references links to them. I have a perfectly operable thread that works as long as people use it, but I've noticed that it's been a bit under-used since my Finals began. I will update the links as much as I can find but that's about it. And please use the thread - it's there as a tool. If you can't place it anywhere, place a link to the OOC thread and eventually someone will find it, rather than letting it float in NS space...

EDIT - And you guys seriously NEEEEEEED to make a separate RP thread and respective OOC chatter box because you're cluttering up the IC posts, OOC posts, and et cetera. If I have the time, I'll make it myself.

I won't be here Thursday, as I be on vacation. As to the Floating RPs out there. I know I have one or two and will log them in tonight.

Question for you ALM. Why wouldn't they not patrol waters that aren't their own? The Germans, Japanese, British, American, Soviet Union (Russia) so on did it all throughout World War 1, World War 2 and all during the Cold War. It still goes on today. Being aware of where your enemy (I use the term enemy literally) fleets are is a great tactical advantage if war were to break out. And war had indeed been building to an eventually outcome in the Americas for some time, even with people trying to prevent it.

Also, I wasn't specify patrolling for Vineyard ships. Him entering the Caribbean through the Panama Canal was a big warning to me. I took steps to protect myself as I had taken steps to protect my self should Sharina get aggressive.

That's the whole point of a patrol. To send out a vehicle (any type) or a unit (persons) to an unknown area to find out what's going on. So, I have every reason to send out patrols. As do each of you, if you choose not to utilize that function of your military that’s up to you.

Sharina

19-12-2006, 07:08

1. To answer your question in as short an answer as possible. Yes, they span almost the entire Caribbean Sea. They also cover the Atlantic Ocean (with deployments from Spain and Portugal including that of by Venezuela) and to a limited extent the Gulf of Mexico. So, my Patrols are big, very big. Remember, Sharina has large tracts of land and bases I have to watch over. You sailed right through a busy shipping lane for one and two pretty much the heart of the Caribbean. Add up the distance will you from Ven to a spot around a hundred miles (give or take about 10-30 miles) off the Panama Canal. It's not that far for a sub to make the trip, given the subs I use. I got a question for your statement about Sharina not allowing that. How could Sharina not allow it? If, my subs and ships are in international waters, his stopping my ships without due cause or attacking them is an act of war plain and simple. Second, he has to find them and that wouldn't be as easy as it sounds. Finding the ships are not to hard, but finding subs is never easy.

I'd like to interject something here.

I do recall that national "waters" extend roughly 10 - 15 miles from shore, thus if your aircraft or ships moved into that 10 - 15 mile "maritime territorial zone", it would have meant war with Sharina (same goes for any nation violating other's national maritime territory, especially when tensions are high).

4. The subs are always on patrol, remember as I stated I have to keep an eye and ear out for any aggressive move by Sharina. The same goes for the ships and aircraft. About, the Cayman Islands footage. You didn't state IC one way or another if you were close to the Islands or not. I just assumed that from the impression you gave of how quick it was for your aircraft and your rigid-inflatable boats (RIB) to attack and then return. To do it in the time frame I got the impression you were doing it the Fleet would of had to been pretty close to the Islands. Also, further out would of given Sharina more time to mount an response considering his ships were patrolling the seas and his aircraft in the Air, just like mine- I would think. Only, he can say what his military is doing for sure. Also, don't forget about Radar.

Now, why Sharina's radar didn't pick you up I can only think of a few ideas. IC reason why is that he has no radar coverage in the area which is good news for me as the war as both you have said has started and would not give him time to build a radar network. OCC- because he wants a war IC just as much as you do and is willing to ignore certain things. Which, I am fine with.

The Caymans are usually covered by RADAR coverage from Cuba and Jamaica, as it would be pretty cramped if military bases and RADAR and airfields and such were all crammed into Cayman Islands. Besides, I wasn't IC'ly expecting an attack on the Caymans as it only has, what, 10,000 people tops and doesn't have any significant airfields or docks. The only thing of note is the famous "Cayman Banks" (where all these off-shore bank accounts are set up).

The majority of my military stuff, patrols, and coverage is on the much larger islands of Cuba and Jamaica (and elsewhere like Haiti, Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico which I will try to finish the RP's for). I do have a few secret submarine pens in the Bahamas, as well as cruise missiles, early warning RADAR stations (watch all incoming traffic from the Atlantic Ocean), AAA defenses (first line of AAA defense), etc.

I have dozens of airbases and hundreds of RADAR stations all along the Latin American coastline of the Caribbean, so I should have no problem with sending out fighters, bombers, AWACS, missiles, and have a solid warning system in place.

The reason why Vineyard was able to pull off what he did was because of several reasons.

1. Sharina didn't expect Vineyard to attack the Cayman Islands. IC'ly, the Sharina leadership knew that Vineyard wouldn't be *that* suicidal to try that. This is because Sharina would simply tear apart the Vineyardian Navy should Vineyard try such a thing, and Sharina knows that the Vineyardians know that.

2. The Vineyardian aircraft were designated as "friendlies", so seeing friendlies fly over Cayman Islands wouldn't raise any eyebrows, as Sharinan aircraft flies over the Caribbean and most of the islands all the time. In addition, most of the attention of the RADAR stations, installations, and technicians were focused on Cuba, Jamaica, the islands being conquered (Haiti, Dominician Republic, Puerto Rico, etc.), the mainland, and the Atlantic Ocean. The Cayman Islands sector has only one RADAR operator, and he was not exactly attentive at his post.

3. Therefore, Sharina considers that Vineyard wouldn't be that stupid to attack Cayman Islands, and the only nation to gain from such an attack would be the RUN (considering the RUN is the only other major presence in the Americas as the CSA collapsed and Braska has been dormant or something). Plus, the RUN has been expanding constantly. The RUN attempting to expand into the Caymans or try to grab the Cayman bank stuff would be considered a much more likely scenario than an utterly stupid and suicidial attack from Vineyard. (all IC perpsective, mind you)

4. There are no other nations that has an interest in the Caribbean- Military Command left the Americas, TGSR doesn't own land anymore (Aruba), Great Romeo has not done anything in Costa Rica for a while and doesn't have naval assets there (thanks to my prior blockade), and sailing troops like 200 miles in plastic rafts from Costa Rica wouldn't exactly work. Braska hasn't done anything about the Caribbean as he was apparently busy trying to open up relations and rebuild his nation, and Brinkman Isle is one of Sharina's allies so he'd be quite unlikely to attack Cayman Islands. So all these things keep pointing at the RUN as the likely culprit (IC perpsective again).

Thus, Sharina was caught with its pants down, and many fingers point at the RUN as the likely culprit. To top it off, Sharina and the RUN were saber rattling while the RUN expands into Guyana and Windward Islands, plus Gabon (although Sharina doesn't involve itself in Africa, the expansion in Gabon does serve as propganda and "Hey look! RUN expands again!" stuff).

5. This resembles Pearl Harbor somewhat. Instead of sinking battleships and naval assets, the aircraft targeted civilians and domestic infrastructure. The special forces troops did the same thing. Sharina was caught off guard, just like the US was caught off guard despite having RADAR coverage. Pearl Harbor was an excuse the US needed to go to war aganist Japan, just like the Cayman Islands was an excuse for Sharina to go to war aganist the RUN (even though Sharina IC'ly doesn't suspect it was Vineyard).

Hope that clears up stuff a bit for you guys.

Alif Laam Miim

21-12-2006, 21:22

Redirected from main OCC thread.

I won't be here Thursday, as I be on vacation. As to the Floating RPs out there. I know I have one or two and will log them in tonight.

Question for you ALM. Why wouldn't they not patrol waters that aren't their own? The Germans, Japanese, British, American, Soviet Union (Russia) so on did it all throughout World War 1, World War 2 and all during the Cold War. (1) It still goes on today. Being aware of where your enemy (I use the term enemy literally) fleets are is a great tactical advantage if war were to break out. And war had indeed been building to an eventually outcome in the Americas for some time, even with people trying to prevent it.

Also, I wasn't specify patrolling for Vineyard ships. Him entering the Caribbean through the Panama Canal was a big warning to me. (2) I took steps to protect myself as I had taken steps to protect my self should Sharina get aggressive.

That's the whole point of a patrol. To send out a vehicle (any type) or a unit (persons) to an unknown area to find out what's going on. (3) So, I have every reason to send out patrols. As do each of you, if you choose not to utilize that function of your military that’s up to you.

(1) My first response to that question - you're not the Germans, Japanese, British, Americans, Soviet Union during World War I, World War 2, and the Cold War, so the parallel is not apparent, unless you wish to imply something else.

My second response - perhaps more legitimate - as true as those instances remain, you stated that your patrols were defensive in nature as I quote here [albeit, you never said defensive, but the intent and purpose was evident]:
On sea, ships and subs patrolled the area with long range maritime aircraft providing support. Should any attack come, the forces of Venezuela were ready and with the help of their allies drive them back.

Unless your idea of a sound defense is to sneak submarines on a carrier [sounds quite aggressive to me, unless I misinterpret the whole idea of Vineyard sending a carrier group - which I must state now is either impossible [Vineyard says it's "one of the biggest ships in the fleet"] or Sharina has done a fabulous remodel of the Panama Canal - the emphasis on either is critical for any backlash that might occur], your submarines would make a better defensive in waters that are more accessible to RUN aircraft, naval vessels, and otherwise critical support in a defensive strike - because I doubt that your vessels would last long in a protracted fight in Sharinan waters.

(2) How did the RUN uncover Vineyard's entry into the Caribbean? If they used satellites, why would they revert to submarines? If there is human intelligence, why not use that intelligence to track it to source? And as far as I know, Vineyard is not the primary opponent settled against RUN [unless some of the diplomatic dynamics changed in my absence...].

(3) That happens to be a surveillance patrol - usually not so for defensive patrols. You're using your naval assets as if they were ground units [in which case, even ground units don't stray too far from home]. If you're sending vessels on a defensive patrol, they usually stick to their perimeter - which in the case of a submarine following a Vineyardian carrier [or carrier group, I'm entirely certain about the wording of this at the moment] heading to Cayman Islands would lie outside this perimeter [unless you envision the Caribbean as your home territorial waters].

The solution?

I don't know. I haven't the read the material enough to discern what's exactly going on. I'm missing a lot of pages from the book, so I need to fetch the binder to put them all back together again. But I will be ready and willing to address any concerns that you relate back to me about my statements. Have a good break!

As for the other comments, I think that I'll go ahead an create an IC thread for this, so we don't clutter up other threads. Once I've done that, I'll post a link in this thread [as well as the reference thread and any other thread that applies], and continue finding the loose pages...

EDIT - IC THREAD IS HERE [Link is enclosed] (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511856)

Sharina

22-12-2006, 00:22

The Panama Canal should already have been widened by this project by now in Earth V.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_expansion_project

Hope this helps.

Sharina

22-12-2006, 00:42

I should have a rudimentary list of military forces and such by the weekend or so, as I have quite a lot of land area to canvass for military bases and alternate-history revisions (for example, in RL, B-2's are based in Missouri, but I don't own Missouri in Earth V).

Alif Laam Miim

22-12-2006, 02:00

The Panama Canal should already have been widened by this project by now in Earth V.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_expansion_project

Hope this helps.

I'm presuming that you'll use the standards set in the expansion project - but of course, when did this happen? Just a quick estimate.

Sharina

22-12-2006, 03:33

I'm presuming that you'll use the standards set in the expansion project - but of course, when did this happen? Just a quick estimate.

In real life, the construction won't be done until 2013 or so. However, seeing that Earth V has the odd "real year time freeze but game year isn't frozen" thing going on, we could say that this canal expansion was completed a while ago- approximately 7 - 8 game years after we instituted the odd time scale we're using.

However, I'm planning a major overhaul of the Canal after the war. I'm planning on doing a massive digging project to make a perfectly flat passage at sea level. This will eliminate the need for locks, allow far more ships to sail through the Canal, and allow carriers to sail through the canal side-by-side. This project won't begin until after the war, though.

Thus, for now, consider the canal as "expanded" as of the conclusion of that RL Expansion Project provided in the link. (Stats, dimensions, capacity, etc.)

Vineyard

23-12-2006, 01:15

United Earthlings

07-01-2007, 11:08

(1) My first response to that question - you're not the Germans, Japanese, British, Americans, Soviet Union during World War I, World War 2, and the Cold War, so the parallel is not apparent, unless you wish to imply something else.

My second response - perhaps more legitimate - as true as those instances remain, you stated that your patrols were defensive in nature as I quote here [albeit, you never said defensive, but the intent and purpose was evident]:

Unless your idea of a sound defense is to sneak submarines on a carrier [sounds quite aggressive to me, unless I misinterpret the whole idea of Vineyard sending a carrier group - which I must state now is either impossible [Vineyard says it's "one of the biggest ships in the fleet"] or Sharina has done a fabulous remodel of the Panama Canal - the emphasis on either is critical for any backlash that might occur], your submarines would make a better defensive in waters that are more accessible to RUN aircraft, naval vessels, and otherwise critical support in a defensive strike - because I doubt that your vessels would last long in a protracted fight in Sharinan waters.

(2) How did the RUN uncover Vineyard's entry into the Caribbean? If they used satellites, why would they revert to submarines? If there is human intelligence, why not use that intelligence to track it to source? And as far as I know, Vineyard is not the primary opponent settled against RUN [unless some of the diplomatic dynamics changed in my absence...].

(3) That happens to be a surveillance patrol - usually not so for defensive patrols. You're using your naval assets as if they were ground units [in which case, even ground units don't stray too far from home]. If you're sending vessels on a defensive patrol, they usually stick to their perimeter - which in the case of a submarine following a Vineyardian carrier [or carrier group, I'm entirely certain about the wording of this at the moment] heading to Cayman Islands would lie outside this perimeter [unless you envision the Caribbean as your home territorial waters].

The solution?

I don't know. I haven't the read the material enough to discern what's exactly going on. I'm missing a lot of pages from the book, so I need to fetch the binder to put them all back together again. But I will be ready and willing to address any concerns that you relate back to me about my statements. Have a good break!

As for the other comments, I think that I'll go ahead an create an IC thread for this, so we don't clutter up other threads. Once I've done that, I'll post a link in this thread [as well as the reference thread and any other thread that applies], and continue finding the loose pages...

EDIT - IC THREAD IS HERE [Link is enclosed] (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511856)

1. Well, me and Vineyard- IC are not exactly friends. He did after all declare war on me before. Not exactly a lot their for a trusting friendship. So, forgive me for being more "aggressive" when it came to him operating a Fleet close to my shores. Well I operate two types of subs. A Nuclear Class and A diesel Class. Diesels are more suited for defensive warfare and Nuclear, offensive warfare. I'm using both in this case. BTW, aircraft can do in-flight refueling you know. So, range is not a problem as most of these aircraft can fly for nearly 1,000 miles with a payload. I wouldn't last long huh, well I guess you never heard of the saying of never under estimate your enemy. Your making the classic mistake that because I'm the underdog that I'm weak and will be a push over. All you all in for a surprise.

2. I used TV in this case to found out about Vineyard Carrier and to a limited extend human intelligence. After that I directed aircraft and subs to locate the carrier and had 1 or 2 subs assigned to follow Vineyards Fleet.

3. Actually, I'm using my Naval Units as Naval Units and my ground units as ground units. Last I checked, tanks don't float and ships don't drive. The perimeter is what ever I set it at. In this case, it includes most of the Caribbean.

4. You seem to think all naval vessels stay and patrol in their home waters (that 12 km line out from any country). This is not the case in the real world. There is something called international waters and my ships are free to enter and exit them as they please. Military Vessels are not restricted to their home waters.

5. You were correct, you are missing a lot of the pages. But, that's why I'm answering your questions so as to fill in the pages.

United Earthlings

07-01-2007, 11:39

Mkay, im here now

"One of the biggest ships in my fleet."

It is still compatitivly small. My fleet is dwarfed by many others, as the Empire is now taking to the air more often. I will probably end up expanding it after the war, but for now, its small.

And it isn't 'just' a carrier group. Despite its small size, it is indeed the entirety of my surface navy (The Submarines are still in Europe).

And for the record, Sharina could probably rip my fleet apart within minutes, considering that my (surface) fleet has now joined his, and is operating under his (Temporary) command.

At any rate, I was interested in the type of submarine for a reason. More of a suspicion really...

And that suspicion proved correct. Just because its a higher number, does not mean it is more advanced.

The Germans use (and build) the type 212 submarine, it being one of the more advanced types in the world. Of course, it being the key advantage of the german navy over many other navies, they don't want to give that sort of thing away. THis, when combined with the market for such an advanced sub, the germans came up with the 214. Like the 212, the 214 came with all the bells and whistles of the 212, only the germans purposly created a weakness about the sub.

Its entire hull.

YOu see, the 212's hull is non-magnetic, or lacking any magnetic attraction, hence its ability to slip through unnoticed more often than not. But, the 214's hull IS magnetic, leaving it detectable. Very detectable.

May come in handy in future operations...

In this case, because it is a higher number does indeed mean it's more advance. Read for yourself and that's just one source. They all say the same thing. I will bold the important stuff.

TYPE 214

HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212. The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. It is scheduled to commission in 2006.

The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials. Hull length is 65m and displacement 1,700t. Four of the eight torpedo tubes will be capable of firing missiles.

Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy will be armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.

"The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m."Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks. A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.

The Integrated Sensor Underwater System ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik integrates all sensors, command and control functions on board the submarine. BAE Systems provides the Link 11 tactical data link. The sensor suite of the U214 submarine consists of the sonar systems, an attack periscope and an optronic mast. The submarine's electronic support measures system and global positioning system sensors are also installed on the optronic mast.

Another source-Other exceptional features of the Class 214 submarine are:
A. Considerably extended submerged endurance and low detectability due to incorporation of the proven fuel cell system for air-independent propulsion
B. Minimised acoustic, thermal and magnetic signatures as a result of the mature design and the advanced production technology
C. Increased diving depth capabilities
D. Improved living conditions for the crew

In response to your last part, I couldn't find any sources validating that the Type 212 is non-magnetic and the Type 214 magnetic. What, I assume your thinking of is that the Type 212 has Anechoic tiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_tile) and the Type 214 doesn't. In, that case you would be wrong. Both, subs are built with metal (hence they are magnetic) and both have anechoic coatings to reduce their magnetic signature. Most Modern Subs today have an anechoic coating on them.

In summary, the Type 214 is more advance. The key advances being listed above.

Yes, I know a lot about military equipment. You should see how many books I have on them.

Vineyard

07-01-2007, 22:00

Brinkman Isle

09-01-2007, 02:58

Where does everyone stand right now? Location wise?
I know i have troops stationed in a few countries in SA as well as soon to be ..er i forget lol.

United Earthlings

09-01-2007, 19:20

Whats the link to that page? That sounds radically different than my source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine

QUOTE:

"The Type 214 is a diesel-electric submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). It is based on features of the Type 212, but as the export version of the more advanced Type 212 submarine it lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies.[citation needed] Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209."

"Due to improvements in the pressure hull materials type 214 can dive more than 250 m"

I would quote more, but it would effectivly nullify my posting of the link.

While I agree that the 214 has a greater diving depth, and in the case of the greek 212 (Note: Greek) has better detection technologies. On top of this, only 2 nations besides Germany currently posses the Submarine. South Korea and Greece.

What nation of yours has the 214? Its probably a short-comming of Wikipedia, and I wish to correct the error.

A remark about wikipedia-while a great general source it is not a 100% accurate source. I have found numerous errors throughout many articles on it. So, I know for a fact it's not perfect. Rule of thumb-if you can't find a second source validating your first one then in most cases the first source is wrong. I know for a fact that statement "It is based on features of the Type 212, but as the export version of the more advanced Type 212 submarine it lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies." is wrong. How I know is simple, for subs to be able to survive the immense pressure at such extreme depths [400 meters is around 1,315 ft FYI], they need to be built with metal (steel usually but, some Russian subs like the Sierra Class were built with titanium).

Case in point, I couldn't find a second source validating the Wikipedia one. So, whoever typed that statement either is not informed (which I think is the case) or just was confused about capabilities of the Type 214.

My, nation the United Netherlands bought the production rights to the Type 214 sub from TGSR (Germany). The sub is the standard sub in the Fleet, my navies rely on Diesel more the Nuclear, but in the past 5 years have started to increase it's Nuclear Fleet. Still, I have more Diesels then Nuclear. So, in answer to your question- all my nations use it.

And finally-here are the two sites I used. If, you read through them you'll see they correlate each other. Both say the sub can dive to 400 meters, both say the Type 214 has an AIP System, so on....

Link 1- [Scroll to the bottom of the page]-http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/

Link 2- (Direct link from the company that builds the subs in real life)-http://www.tk-marinesystems.de/index.php?level=4&CatID=101&inhalt_id=177&product=30&subprod=8&detail=12

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where does everyone stand right now? Location wise?
I know i have troops stationed in a few countries in SA as well as soon to be ..er i forget lol.

I stand all over the world, but in relation to South America. Ven and Argentina- Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay (Which are not part of the Republic, I'm just roleplaying for their governments) are going to try to stay out of the war but, if it looks like Sharina or any nation for that matter is going to come and turn them into a client kingdom their going to fight. And if need be they'll drag the whole world into the war to protect their new found liberty, as they would do in the real world.

Brinkman is very well aware of a lot of this, as before the war started there was a conference which is still ongoing though in the past.

Alif Laam Miim

09-01-2007, 21:03

Where does everyone stand right now? Location wise?
I know i have troops stationed in a few countries in SA as well as soon to be ..er i forget lol.

I'm fairly certain that Sharina is working on his mobilization orders. The others, I have no clue... I'll give it some time for them to get their declarations out of the way, in the meantime, I want people to get all of the ooc arguments done so we can move on with better efficiency.

Sharina

10-01-2007, 04:00

Here's a rough list of my military bases and locations of troops.

AFB = Air Force Base
AB = Army Base
NB = Navy Base

1. Military Bases:

Greenland: AFB (2), AB (1), NB (1)

AFB: Thule, Tasiilaq
AB: Nuuk
NB: Narsarsuaq

Eastern Canada: AFB (4), AB (3), NB (3)

AFB: Thunder Bay, Churchill, Quebec, Ottawa
AB: Toronto, Montreal, Quebec
NB: Halifax, St. John's, Sept-Iles

Western Canada: AFB (4), AB (4), NB (2)

AFB: Whitehorse, Dawson, Calgary, Winnipeg
AB: Vancouver, Whitehorse, Edmonton, Regina
NB: Vancouver, Juneau

Central America: AFB (6), AB (6), NB (4)

AFB: Chihuahua, Leon, Coban, Managua, Santiago, Bocos del Toro
AB: Hermosillo, Monterrey, Mexico City, Guatemala, Managua, Santiago
NB: Guaymas, Veracruz, Panama, Bocos del Toro

Caribica*: AFB (3), AB (2), NB (4)

AFB: Havana, Kingston, Nassau
AB: Guantanamo, Kingston
NB: Havana, Morant Bay, Nassau, Port-Au-Prince

South America: AFB (3), AB (3), NB (3)

AFB: Bogota, Turbo, Quito
AB: Bogota, Mitu, Quito
NB: Cartagena, Turbo, Esmeraldas

Alaska: AFB (2), AB (2), NB (1)

AFB: Nome, Anchorage
AB: Nome, Anchorage
NB: Anchorage

New England: AFB (5), AB (4), NB (4)

AFB: Rochester, Worchester, Philadelphia, Annapolis, Trenton
AB: Springfield, Concord, Yonkers, Baltimore
NB: Newport, Providence, Baltimore, Cheapasake Bay

West Coast: AFB (6), AB (8), NB (5)

AFB: Vandenburg, Edwards, Seattle, Colorado Springs, Area 51, Honoulu
AB: Seattle, Salt Lake City, Portland, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, Area 51, Phoenix, Honoulu
NB: Seattle, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, Honoulu

Mid-West: AFB (4), AB (4), NB (1)

AFB: Minneapolis, Sioux Falls, Milawaukee, Springfield
AB: Chicago, Omaha, Cedar Rapids, Helena
NB: Chicago (Great Lakes coastal guard HQ)

Antarctica**: AFB (2), AB (1), NB (1)

AFB: McMurdo, Palmer
AB: McMurdo
NB: McMurdo

* = Caribica encompasses Sharina's entire Caribbean holdings within a single "State" / "Province".

** = The bases there are significantly smaller than the normal bases, and are primarily there to support the population in Antartica with a link to the rest of the world.

Important Notes:

1. The bases themselves are located within 15 miles of these cities.

2. There are several dozen smaller military bases scattered throughout Sharina, but are substantially smaller than the main bases. These smaller bases serve as auxiliary and backup sites, as well as additional mustering points (Homeland Defense or bases for reserve forces).

3. There may be additional bases constructed or converted later on in newly acquistioned territory (Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, and the rest of the Caribbean).

4. My military is almost evenly split throughout these bases as an attempt at decentralized military. This is so that there will not be a huge loss of military power if several major bases are taken out.

Feedback?

United Earthlings

10-01-2007, 05:35

Kopparbergs

10-01-2007, 13:06

Here's a rough list of my military bases and locations of troops.
Feedback?
Looks good to me.

Is there anything else we're waiting for? I think this freeze is a little annoying, cause you cannot RP as you want to. I understand why it's necessary, but we must continue to play as soon as possible.

Sharina

10-01-2007, 13:43

Looks good to me.

Is there anything else we're waiting for? I think this freeze is a little annoying, cause you cannot RP as you want to. I understand why it's necessary, but we must continue to play as soon as possible.

I know, and I'm a bit annoyed myself. I want to get the war rolling so that the war will be RP'ed and then other RP's can start taking place during or after the war. However, some stuff still needs to be addressed like the intentions and declarations of the other players involved (Vineyard, Great Romeo, Military Command, UE / RUN, Persecution+Hatred, etc.) and I need to know if ALM is ready to moderate the war.

Plus, there's a couple of RP issues that needs to be resolved ASAP, namely nukes and the controversy over the RUN's new bomber. The issue being that the nukes cannot be RP'ed *before* the war due to the freeze (and the controversy that a nuke war will cause- see the main OOC thread for details), and the RUN's new bomber being a new precedent by copying B-1 Lancer. UE argues that there's substantial American stuff lying around in other nations like the F-16's. This is acceptable as I did sell a few primitive F-series fighters, but I did not sell any bombers to any nation thus nobody else has the know-how to clone the B-1 Lancer unless they come up with the stats and exact specs (dimensions, engines, aerodynamics, etc.) from scratch. I'm personally inclined to allow the RUN to develop a clone, but not in great numbers, and clones tend to be somewhat weaker than the original until more refining and tweaks are done to the prototypes. Take China's RL stuff for example. It cloned quite a bit of Soviet stuff like tanks and planes, but Chinese stuff are considerably poorer in quality than their original Soviet equipment. Another example: the Chinese Type-99 tank is kinda a clone of the Western tanks like the Abrams, but doesn't have as good protection as the Abrams and a few other shortcomings compared to the Abrams.

Again, as I've already said in the main OOC thread- I'm not singling out UE for criticism. I'll criticize anybody, regardless whether they're IC ally or foe if their actions seem suspect like too few losses, doing somewhat unrealistic feats, building NS'ified crap like superdreads + Mach 5 fighters + invincible tanks, etc. Take Vineyard for instance- I criticized his Neuron bombers, and I criticized the deployment of Vineyardian and Great Romeo forces into that tiny outpost village in far Eastern Siberia near Alaska. I criticized Asian China's RP'ing and military losses and such in fighting in China a while ago, and he was neither an ally or foe. And I am indeed responsive to whoever criticizes me and I did indeed modify my stuff in compromises (remember my tweaks of military declarations when Earth V was revamped?)

Also, in other words for the freeze- the year and status of everything is exactly the same as just prior to Sharina declaring war on the RUN in the belief that the RUN attacked the Cayman Islands. This means all the new stuff, particularly military equipment, technology, bombs, resources, etc. that has been RP'ed between that time in RL (December before X-mas) and today (and until the freeze is unfrozen) will be factored + added in AFTER the war or during the war itself if the war is a long one like WW-1, WW-2, or Vietnam BUT not at the beginning of the war itself.

Hopefully people will get into gear, and I need ALM to tell me what else he needs to start moderating the war, and then we can finally get underway. And then we can finally unfreeze the RP freeze, and resume normal RP'ing.

Alif Laam Miim

10-01-2007, 20:33

I know, and I'm a bit annoyed myself. I want to get the war rolling so that the war will be RP'ed and then other RP's can start taking place during or after the war. However, some stuff still needs to be addressed like the intentions and declarations of the other players involved (Vineyard, Great Romeo, Military Command, UE / RUN, Persecution+Hatred, etc.) and I need to know if ALM is ready to moderate the war.

Plus, there's a couple of RP issues that needs to be resolved ASAP, namely nukes and the controversy over the RUN's new bomber. The issue being that the nukes cannot be RP'ed *before* the war due to the freeze (and the controversy that a nuke war will cause- see the main OOC thread for details), and the RUN's new bomber being a new precedent by copying B-1 Lancer. UE argues that there's substantial American stuff lying around in other nations like the F-16's. This is acceptable as I did sell a few primitive F-series fighters, but I did not sell any bombers to any nation thus nobody else has the know-how to clone the B-1 Lancer unless they come up with the stats and exact specs (dimensions, engines, aerodynamics, etc.) from scratch. I'm personally inclined to allow the RUN to develop a clone, but not in great numbers, and clones tend to be somewhat weaker than the original until more refining and tweaks are done to the prototypes. Take China's RL stuff for example. It cloned quite a bit of Soviet stuff like tanks and planes, but Chinese stuff are considerably poorer in quality than their original Soviet equipment. Another example: the Chinese Type-99 tank is kinda a clone of the Western tanks like the Abrams, but doesn't have as good protection as the Abrams and a few other shortcomings compared to the Abrams.

Again, as I've already said in the main OOC thread- I'm not singling out UE for criticism. I'll criticize anybody, regardless whether they're IC ally or foe if their actions seem suspect like too few losses, doing somewhat unrealistic feats, building NS'ified crap like superdreads + Mach 5 fighters + invincible tanks, etc. Take Vineyard for instance- I criticized his Neuron bombers, and I criticized the deployment of Vineyardian and Great Romeo forces into that tiny outpost village in far Eastern Siberia near Alaska. I criticized Asian China's RP'ing and military losses and such in fighting in China a while ago, and he was neither an ally or foe. And I am indeed responsive to whoever criticizes me and I did indeed modify my stuff in compromises (remember my tweaks of military declarations when Earth V was revamped?)

Also, in other words for the freeze- the year and status of everything is exactly the same as just prior to Sharina declaring war on the RUN in the belief that the RUN attacked the Cayman Islands. This means all the new stuff, particularly military equipment, technology, bombs, resources, etc. that has been RP'ed between that time in RL (December before X-mas) and today (and until the freeze is unfrozen) will be factored + added in AFTER the war or during the war itself if the war is a long one like WW-1, WW-2, or Vietnam BUT not at the beginning of the war itself.

Hopefully people will get into gear, and I need ALM to tell me what else he needs to start moderating the war, and then we can finally get underway. And then we can finally unfreeze the RP freeze, and resume normal RP'ing.

I've been ready since the end of finals... I've been waiting mostly for people to get on with the war. Instead, I've been seeing a lot of post-declaration preparations and yet no actual conflict.

As far as what I need from everyone, I'll explain it in detail below since that may hinder progress on what I want people to give:

1 - A list of troops mobilized to the conflict [not your military declarations]; I want to know where, when, and how many troops are being committed to the attack/defense of a particular territory. You may choose to engage total war, but realize that (a) that's going to be expensive and unrealistic at the start of a war and (b) it's likely going to hurt you more than help you because you'll quickly exhaust any reserves you have and will then resort to conscription when that phase of the war approaches.

Something simple and easy:

I've got 16,000 troops on Haiti with 50MBT, 200 IFV, 10 MLRS units, et cetera.

I've got a fleet patrollling the Sargasso Sea, containing 2 frigates, 3 destroyers, 1 carrier, 5 submarines, and 9 cruisers.

This the technology that I use, these are the equipments, arms, et cetera that are employed [this is likely covered in your military declarations, so provide a link to that as well, so people don't have to sift through that mess to get to your post; WHICH YOU MUST HAVE IN ORDER TO DO ANYTHING IN THE FIRST PLACE, but I don't need to mention that one again...]

Noting that you can authorize the mobilization of additional units during the course of the war, but it will need to be ICly declared well in advance of their commitment to combat areas [advance is something at minimum 24 hours RL, so on the one hand, don't do it so quickly, but then again, plan accordingly if an emergency arises].

If you can do this as generally as possible without forgetting anything, I will be very happy!

2 - When combat starts, I want to know exactly where, when, how, and with what numbers an attack is being employed. The more specific the information, the better. Otherwise, when I [or however we are to calculate losses and advantages] start chugging the information, I will assume only what I would presume by the information given, and as we all should know, information is very important in war.

Something like:

I've got 10,000 troops attacking the coast of Texas, with naval and aerial support from blah blah blah, landing with blah blah blah, and so and so.

If you're organized like me, you'll have an organization chart with the units and their components, so the only thing you'll need to say is:

"The 4th and 6th INF Divisions are attacking the coast of Texas, with support from the 2nd Naval Task Force and 124th and 126th Air squadrons." with the blibs about how they are committing the attack.

If everything is done correctly, I will know what is attacking where, when and how it will be done, and thus be able to gauge better the defensive reaction to the attack.

3 - That's all for now, but please bear in mind that if I need more information, I will ask for it. Considering that this is the first real war since whenever [I'm half-way debating the Red Sea issue...], so a lot of the combat experience is not much a factor. There are probably people around to take in mind the strategic vision, but I'm basing that on how each country moves its troops in relation to the war, so either you're smart or dumb about it - no complaints.

I will take ooc complaints, as a perfectly legitimate reply is worthwhile to correct an action. But if you're complaining to me about everything that I am doing [as far as my judgment goes at least...], then find another person with less bias. I can't guarantee that all of the battles will be fair, but as long as you present to me information that is useful in its resolution, the result ought to be as real as possible. Bear in mind that if an ooc argument gets out of hand, I will resolve it myself using the information presented [for better or worse], so please be educated, please be smart, and please be courteous [above all, be courteous if anything!].

This is probably my third time saying all of this, but I'm hoping that having said much of this in detail [or differently...], it will prompt all of you to get on to doing the conflict in the near immediate future. So get me numbers, etc.

Sharina, your declaration is a very detailed, but... I'd like to have more concrete numbers. If your military is nearly spread out throughout each of the main bases, just give me a rough estimate of what one base constitutes in terms of personnel, equipment, and supply. Again, I don't need everything, but as long as I know where, when, and how much, that will do fine.

Vineyard

10-01-2007, 22:31

My military list is more detail spcific. Although it looks well-thought (And it is), it will probably serve as a disadvantage, as other players 9Namly my enemies) can use the liquidity of their bases assets to their advantage. IE. I attack an 'Air base" And encounter 200 Patriot Missle Emplacements. Whereas an attacker may know that my Regional Naval Command Bases are relitivly exposed on their lonesome, and may utilize that to their advantage. See the problem?

At any rate, I was reminded to post these by ALM, after finishing these up yesterday. So here it is...

POPULATION:
EUROPE: 86,088,396 (Minus Cyprus.... will include later.)
AFRICA: 66,362,865
MIDDLE EASTERN: 48,083,137

Elite = 50,000 soldiers per $100 billion
Average = 100,000 soldiers per $100 billion
Soviet = 200,000 soldiers per $100 billion

50k Imperial Guardsmen (Elite) 100B invested
431,611k Regulars (431.611B invested)
250,000 MPs (Draftees from the Poliece forces.)
...Leaving $181,611,504,777.15

BOV-VP - APC (Crew of 2) 10000
BOV-SN - ambulance (Can be manned by any Infantry or Logistics based force.) 2000

BOV-30 - Self-Propelled Anti-aircraft gun similar to BOV-3 but with 2 x 30 mm cannons (Crew of 4) 2500

BOV-1 / Polo M83 - anti-tank version 6xAT-3 missiles (Crew of 4) 3000
M-95 Degman- Main battle Tank. Cheap to produce. 125mm smoothbore tank gun, coaxial 7.62mm PKT machine gun, and a 12.7mm antiaircraft machine gun. (Crew of 3) 27000

B1 Centauro- Light/Medium tank. 105 mm / 52 caliber gyrostabilised gun, with a 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun MG, and another 7.62 mm anti-aircraft MG. (Crew of 4) 15000

Boxer MRAV- Armed with a 40mm Gernade launcher. It can be used as an APC, Field Logistics, HQ, Battledamage repair, and a medical/ambulance vehicule. Interchangable back can change its role in under 1 hour. (Crew of 2) 10000

Fennek - Recon Vehicule, Medium Range anti-tank, Combat Engineer, and Artillary Observer versions. Can be fitted with: 12.7 mm machine gun, a Rafael Spike anti-tank missile, a 40 mm automatic grenade launcher, or Surface-to Air Missles. The vehicle is protected all-round against 7.62 mm rounds and additional armour can be added if the mission requires. The air conditioning system provides protection against nuclear, biological and chemical warfare and the crew compartment is protected against anti-personnel mines. (Crew of 3) 10000

PzH 2000 - 155mm self-propelled howitzer. (Crew of 5) 5000

Artemis 30 - twin 30 mm autocannons, normally deployed in 6 twin mounts per battery, and has a maximum range of 8400 meters and a firing rate of 800 rounds per minute. 1000

M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System (M270 MLRS)- Capable of firing a barrage of Rockets ro Guided Missles. The M270 is a very mobile unit, thus well suited for the so called shoot-and-scoot tactic: it can fire its rockets very rapidly and immediately move away to avoid the counter-battery fire. (Crew of 3) 3000

ASCOD AFV - Infantry Fighting Vehicule. Used for delivering troops into the midst of Combat. Armed with a 30 mm Mauser MK and a MG74 7.62 mm. (3 crew, can carry 7 passengers.) (1,000 per Infantry division)

Dassault Neuron - Fighter Aircraft. 20 mm Gatling cannon, air-to-air missles inside internal compartments to avoid breaking stealth while firing. Can be fitted with bombs and Guided missles. (Unmanned) 2000 (2000 people controling aircraft from location(s) inside base(s).)

Agusta A129 Mangusta - Attack Helicopter. Can be used in the anti-armour, armed reconnaissance, ground attack, escort, fire support and anti-aircraft roles. Carries Hellfire/TOW missles, 81 mm or 70 mm (2.75 in) in unguided rockets and has a three-barrel 20 mm cannon in a turret mounted under its nose. Can also carry Stinger or Mistral missles for Anti-Aircraft puroposes. Can be used from a ship. (Crew of 2) 10000

Eurofighter Typhoon - Multi-role Attack aircraft. (Crew of 1) 15000

V-22 Osprey- Mainstray of the Empire's Infantry Transportation, assult, and cargo Copter Air-bourne fleet. Can switch from a twin-propeller plane mode to a fully functional twin rotary helicopter. 3 machine guns, one on port and starbord sides, and finally one in the aft. (Crew of 2) 10000

NHI NH90- Dual purpose helicopter. Can be launched from a frigate for anti-submarine operations, or can be used (in both day and night) to transport troops to and fro battel. Ideal for surgical strikes. Can be flown by just 1 pilot. Armament: anti-submarine and/or anti-surface missiles. (Crew of 1) 500

Antonov An-225(Logistics)- Biggest Aircraft in the world, can fly huge quantities of men, tanks, artillary, supplies, and even other aircraft anywhere in the world with a large enough landing strip! 500

Tupolev Tu-160 (and PP versions)- EW and Strategic Bombers. Extreemly long-ranged. 150

Ilyushin Il-78 (logistics)- Tanker Aircraft. May refuel 3 aircraft at any given time. (Crew of 7) 500

Beriev A-50 (logistics)- Large Aircraft thbat can fly Tanks, Atrillary, and supplies anywhere there is an airstrip. (Crew of 7) 1500

Aircraft Carrier Cavour- 20-24 aircraft: 12-16 fighter/attack aircraft, and 9 Helicopters, with 12 aircraft in the hangar below. (1202 Personnel). 3

Artigliere Class Frigates- The ship's surface to surface missile system is the Otomat by MBDA (formerly Alenia and Matra BAe Dynamics). The missile system has eight Otomat Teseo Mark 2 missile launchers. The missile uses mid-course guidance and active radar homing. With a range of over 170km, the missile is armed with a 210kg warhead. For air defence, the ship is fitted with the Albatros medium-range surface-to-air missile system from Alenia Elsag Sistemi Navali (AESN). This consists of one eight-cell launcher for the Aspide missile, which has a range of 15km and uses semi-active radar homing to deliver a 33kg fragmentation warhead. The ship's main gun installed on the bow deck is the Oto Melara 127mm gun which fires 32kg rounds at a rate of 45 rounds/minute. The range of the gun is more than 15km against surface targets and 7km against airborne targets. MM Bersagliere (F584) has been fitted with the Oto Melara 127mm/54 LW lightweight gun for operational evaluation. Two Oto Melara 40mm twin anti-aircraft guns fire 0.96kg shells at a rate of 300 rounds/minute to a range of 4km for airborne targets and to 12km for surface targets.
The ship is equipped with two ILAS 3 triple torpedo launchers from Whitehead Alenia of Salvanio, Italy. The A244/S anti-submarine torpedoes use active, passive and mixed mode homing to a target range of 7km. Carries 1 Helicopter. 10

Horizon Class Anti-Air Warfare Frigates- Horizon frigates will be armed with the PAAMS Principal Anti-Air Missile System. PAAMS is a tri-national programme involving France, Italy and the UK. The contract for series production was placed in November 2003. The prime contractor is Europaams SAS, a joint venture company two thirds owned by Eurosam (MBDA and Thales) and one third by the UKAMS subsidiary of MBDA. The system is also being fitted on UK Royal Navy Type 45 frigates.
The DCN Sylver A50 vertical launch system within PAAMS, installed immediately forward of the two guns towards the bow deck, has 48 cells for both the Aster 15 and Aster 30 missiles. The Sylver launcher ensures that each round is aligned to within 1mrad. The maximum rate of fire is up to six rounds per second. The Aster missile carries an inertial computer with datalink and an active J-band Doppler radar seeker. Aster 30 has a range of 100km, Aster 15 a range of 30km. The missile has manoeuvrability of up to 62g, achieved through the use of the PIF/PAF guidance system. The Italian frigates will be fitted with two quadruple launchers for the MBDA Teseo (Otomat) Mark 3 surface-to-surface missile, which has a range of up to 55km. The quadruple launchers are installed aiming one to port and one to starboard on the missile deck between the ship's two masts. The missile uses command updated inertial guidance and reaches high subsonic speed, 0.9 Mach.
The three Oto Melara 76mm/62 Super Rapid guns are installed as a pair on the foredeck immediately forward of the bridge and a single gun installed on the hangar overlooking the helicopter deck at the aft of the ship. Two Oto Melara Mod 503 25mm/80 guns are installed one to port and one to starboard. The ship has two twin torpedo launchers for Eurotorp Mu 90 lightweight torpedoes. Eurotorp is a consortium formed by Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei (WASS), DCN and Thales. Mu 90 has a directed energy warhead and a range of 12,000m at maximum speed and 25,000m at minimum speed. Carries 1 Helicopter. 15

Commandante Class Light Combatant Ships- The ship's main gun is an Oto Melara 76mm gun installed on the forward gun deck. The gun is controlled by a Selex NA-25 radar and optronic fire control system which is based on the RTN-25X X-band radar. The naval ships also have two Oto Melara 25mm guns. The Ministry of Transport ships, Sirio and Orione, have 7.62mm general-purpose machine guns. 20

LPD San Giorgio Class Landing Platform Dock- Primary Troop landing ship/Amphibious assult ship. Carries a batallion of troops, or 40 tanks each. Also carries 5 Helicopters on the deck. An Oto Melara 76/62 gun is installed on the gun deck at the bow of the ship. The gun fires 6kg rounds at a firing rate of over 80 rounds/min to a target range of 8.5 nautical miles. The ship is also armed with two Oerlikon 20mm machine guns for close defence. The ship's electronic warfare system comprises an electronic countermeasures and electronic support measures (ECM/ESM) suite supplied by Elettronica SpA of Rome. 50 Currently preping in Italy...

Etna Class LSV Logistic Support Vessel (LOGISTICS)- The purpose of the Marina Militare MM Etna is to fully support the long-range missions of a naval squadron, which would typically include an aircraft carrier and complete escort. The logistic support vessel has to be in position to refuel the squadron, including the air wing of the carrier, and also provide full logistic support in terms of repair workshops, spare parts, ammunition replenishment and supplies.
MM Etna is also capable of performing civil protection roles at times of crisis. The ship has high autonomous capacity to provide electrical power, fresh water and prepared meals and also has fully equipped hospital and medical facilities on board.
MM Etna has a limited weapons fit for self defence. The ship is equipped with a surface search radar (RASS) supplied by Alenia Marconi Systems, now Selex Sistemi Integrati, a Selex CTI 20 command and control system and an Elmer MAC integrated telecommunications system.
The ship has been prepared for the installation of a weapons fit including a Close In Weapon System (CIWS), an Oto Melara 76mm 62 calibre main gun, a Selex fire control system and an Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system. Carries 1 Helicopter. 7 (2 in holding/parked)

The Imperial Guard
Equipped with a Helmet, Night vision goggles, a tinted visor, Body Armor covering the Shoulders, chest, upper arms, parts of the neck, and upper legs. Has elbow and Knee pads, along with hardened leather gauntlets and shin-guards. Carries the following: A Beretta AR 70/90 assault rifle (Along with knife-type bayonets, lightweight and foldable detachable bipods), an Agram 2000 as their side-arm, and 4 grenades. Every paltoon being equipped with a HK GMG grenade launcher / machine gun, 10 'sticks' of C4, a 9K38 "Igla" and a RT-20 Antimateriel Sniper Rifle; every soldier is required to be able to use one.

These troops are the Elite fighting force of the Empire. Formerly known as the 'Beserker' fighting units, many of them were genetically altered so that they couldn't feel pain before the Imperial reforms. Since the Imperial Reforms, Imperial Guardsmen are taken from their homes (Often Forcably) at the age of 5 and trained until the age of 17, whereopon they enter the service. Most live out thewir adult lives in the army.

The Regular
Equipped with a helmet, a tinted visor, bodyarmor covering their chest and shoulders, and upper legs. Has Knee and Elbow pads, along with gauze hand/arm wraps. Carries an APS 95 into battle, alond with an attachable 5 inch steel bayonette, 3 grenades, one smoke grenade, as well as a HS2000 / Springfield XD as a side-arm. Every platoon being equipped with a (One) HK MG-43, 10 'sticks' of C4, a 9K38 "Igla" and a RT-20 Antimateriel Sniper Rifle; every soldier again being required to know how to use one.

These troops are the mainstray of the Empire's Infantry. Typically expected to punch holes in an enemy line, or to hold one against all odds, these troops have been seen on every continent through the years. These troops are typically Volenteers or Draftees, seeing how there are no age limits (After the age of 17) as to when they can apply for service/drafted, they are combat-ready once they have completed their 2-year training course.

The Officer
Equipped with a Carbon-Fibre helmet, a radio, nightvision goggles, and an Imperial-guadrsman's suit of Bodyarmor. Carries one HK MP-7 PDW as their weapon. Command and officers not in the feild of combat (Such as Generals, commanders, Logistics officers etc...) recieve a Beretta PX4 Storm pistol, some Silver-plated or Gold-plated according to rank. All also carry a 45 inch high-carbon stainless steel sword with a Wire-wrap grip.

Officers are only drawn from the most intellegent volenteers and draftees, and each recieves 4 years of training in various Tactical/Command schools across the Empire.

The Marine
Equipped with a helmet, Large goggles, Air breathing tanks, Night-vision goggles, Flippers (You know, the things that go on your feet?) and other Diving equiptment. Carries both an APS underwater assault rifle and a Automat Kalashnikova Modernized - AKM assault rifle, with the multipurpose bayonet-knife. The Automat Kalashnikova Modernized - AKM assault rifle is carried in a water-tight pouch for Surface combat only (Seeing how its an AK-47, even if it gets wet, smashed, and filled with sand, it will still fire). Also, marines can be equipped with Surface-only gear, including loose-fitting cloth gear (Including light fiber bodyarmor), 2 grenades, 5 sticks of C4(each), Their AKM, and Binoculars. Great scouting, Surgical strike troops.

Mistankenly regarded by forign nations to be the Vineyardian Elite Force, the Marines are just a naval-based infantry fighting force.

The Legionaire
Often Recruited from the best of soldiery everywhere, these men recieve basic training regardless of previous training. Although Forign troops/Mercinaries are prefered, the Legion is not above recruiting outstanding soldiers from other Battlegroups. Typically drawing opon the forign citizens of the Empire, such as the citizens of nations the Empire used to posses, the Empire often uses such troops to do their 'dirty work'.

Leginaires are equipped with a Helmet, Equipped with a helmet, a tinted visor, bodyarmor covering their chest and shoulders, and upper legs. Has Knee and Elbow pads, along with gauze hand/arm wraps. Every platoon is equipped with one HK MG-43, 10 'sticks' of C4, a 9K38 "Igla" and a RT-20 Antimateriel Sniper Rifle with every soldier being trained to know how to use them. Each soldier is equipped with a Heckler-Koch HK G36(E) assault rifle, 3 grenades, one smoke grenade, one Korth revolver, and a bayonette.

The Military Poliece
Men brought up directly from the poliece forces, they have already been trained to fight, arrest, deter, and use excessive force. Use a AK-74M, along with a HS2000 / Springfield XD as their side-arm. Given a pair of Tinted glasses, a helmet, and military-issue body-armor. Dark uniform with Badge of white/blue on their left shoulder in the shape of a sheild.

The TO
Militia men. Every man in every village, town, suburb, and city is trained with an AK-47 to, if invaded, fight a gurilla war or to fight on the front with the Regulars if called-up. These troops not only lack in formal training byt also lack in equiptment. In short: They have an AK-47, and are willing to use it in the defence of the Empire. Scattered 9K38 "Igla"s are issued as well. About 1 per 50 men.

Snipers
These men are rarely seen in the Armed Forces. And if they are, your time left walking about the face of Earth going about your pathetic existance is limited. These men are equipped with 4 smoke grenades, a utility knife, survival gear, their main armament of one M-93 Black Arrow / Crna Strela .50 caliber sniper rifle, a Sphinx 3000 Standard pistol (With adjustable sights), a (large, very large) pack with which to contain preserved food, and two Cyanide capsules.

Other Armaments: 9K38 "Igla", C-4, The RT-20 Antimateriel Sniper Rifle

ARMY COMMAND
Regent General Windsor -Commander in Cheif
High Admiral Dragomir - High Admiral, Naval Forces (Calm, calculated. 'Elderly gentleman' sort of aura.)
Air Marshal Ante- Air Marshal, Air Force (Wiry, small, outgoing. Fights in the air with his men. Middle-aged.)
Lord General Orso - Land Marshal, Ground Forces (Weary, wizened. Elderly man with Silvery Beard and mustache.)

1st Battle Group Hrvatska (Croatia) - General Vlaho 62,500 Fighting men
1st Croatian Infantry - Lt. General Dmitar 20840 Fighting men
2ed Croatian Infantry - Lt. General Toma 20840 Fighting men
3ed Croatian Infantry - Lt. General Vlaho 20840 Fighting men
4th Croatian Calvary - Lt. General Srecko

2ed Battlegroup Illyria - General Slavomir 62,500 Fighting men
5th Albanian/Montenegrian Infantry - Lt. General Sava 20840 Fighting men
6th Slovenian Infantry - Lt. General Jure 20840 Fighting men
7th Bosnian Infantry - Lt. General Danilo 20840 Fighting men
8th Bosnian Calvery - Lt. General Ljubomir

3ed Battlegroup Italica - General Gregorio 62,500 Fighting men
9th Italian Infantry - Lt. General Eustorgio 20840 Fighting men
10th Italian Infantry - Lt. General Beniamino 20840 Fighting men
11th Italian Infantry - Lt. General Emidio 20840 Fighting men
12th Italian Calvery - Lt. General Leonzio

4th Battlegroup Africa - General Oluwasegun 62,500 Fighting men
13th Congian Infantry - Lt. General Nsonowa 20840 Fighting men
14th Congian Infantry - Lt. General Onyekachukwu 20840 Fighting men
15th Congian Infantry - Lt. General Ekenedilichukwu 20840 Fighting men
16th Congian Calvery - Lt. General Udo

5th Battlegroup Greece - General Charalampos 62,500 Fighting Men
17th Greek Infantry - Lt. General Nomiki 20840 Fighting Men
18th Greek Infantry - Lt. General Vlasis 20840 Fighting Men
19th Greek Infantry - Lt. General Panagiotis 20840 Fighting Men
20th Greek Calvery - Lt. General Eleftherios

6th Battlefroup Africa - General Otieno 62,500 Fighting Men
21st Congian Infantry - Lt. General Kojo 20840 Fighting Men
22nd Congian Infantry - Lt. General Kibwe 20840 Fighting Men
23ed Congian Infantry - Lt. General Folami 20840 Fighting Men
24th Congian Calvery - Lt. General Adebowale

7th 'International Legion'- General Orel 56,611 Fighting Men
25th Infantry - Lt. General Vyacheslav - 20,840 Fighting Men
26th Infantry - Lt. General Eberardo - 20,840 Fighting Men
27th Infantry - Lt. General Raymond - 14,931 Fighting Men
28th Calvery - Lt. General Shafaqat

Reserve- 24 Reserve Battlegroups (11 African, 13 European)
Double Reserve- 171 Reserve Battlegroups (Can someone check this...?) (75 African, 96 European)

Infantry Divisions are divided as such: (Nomenclature to be revealed at a later date)
Brigade: 12,500 Fighting men (5 of such)
Batallion: 2500 Fighting men (5 of such)
Company: 500 Fighting men (5 of such)
Platoon: 25 Fighting men (20 of such)

Calvery Divisions each have:
6750 M-95 Degmans.
3750 B1 Centauro
1000 M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System
1250 PzH 2000
1000 Artemis 30

Bases: (All are walled complexes)

Storage Facility
-250 Guards, 50 personnel.
-1 huge enterence connected to military highway.
- Can hold up to 1000 dissasembled Eurofighters.
-Petrol Station
-Food Depot
-Ammo Depot
-Weaponry depot
-Bunkers with small closeable 'slits' overlookin mountain. Different levels to it.
-20 MEADS emplacements
-30 Surface-to-surface missle emplacements (If Inland)
-30 Land-to-sea missle emplacements(If on coast, as the Majority are)

Imperial Security Base
-Divisional Command Center
-Food Depot
-Divisional Central weapons Depot
-Divisional Administration
-Hospital
-Logistical Command
-Motor pool
-Refueling station
-Mechanic depot
-Provincial Corp HQ
-Barracks to accomidate 25,000 infantry
-1500 guards at any given time.
-Active Radar
-25 MEADS Emplacements

Regional Naval Command
-Docks for 15 ships
-Logistics center
-Refuel center (Diesel)
-Regional Water Bodies Administration
-Marine barracks for 1,000
-Air strip for 2 Eurofighter Squadrens
-Food Depot
-Ammunition Depot (And Missles for ships..)
-500 guards

Imperial Naval Base
-Docks for 40 ships
-Logistics center
-Refueling Station
-High Seas Administration
-Food Depot
-50 Otomat/Teseo Anti-Shipping Emplacements
-50 MEADS emplacements

Regional Air Base
-250 Guards
-Squadren Command centers
-Ammo depot
-Surface hangars (As opposed to the underground variation in Imperial Air Bases)
-10 mechanics
-15 MEADS emplacements
-250 Active Eurofighters
-Barracks to accomidate up to 1,000 personnel

Imperial Air Base
-1,100 Guards
-Flight/Airgroup Command Centers
-Ammo Depot
-Hospital
-Underground Hangars/Maintenence Hangers
-2,500 Eurofighters
-Airfeilds to accomidate 5,000
-Barracks to accomidate 10,00 personnel
-Warehouses for misc. use
-Food Depot
-100
-Active Radar
-Petrol Depot

Imperial Army Base
-Battlegroup Command Center
-Food Depot
-Weapons Depot
-Divisional Administration
-Hospital
-Logistical Command
-Motor pool
-Refueling station
-Mechanic depot
-Barracks to accomidate 80,000 infantry
-3000 guards at any given time.
-Active Radar
-100 MEADS Emplacements
-Garages to accomidate 1 Calvery Division

TO Command Center
-Hospital
-Administration
-Food Depot
-Weapons Depot
-Ammo Depot
-Motor Pool
-Logistical Command Center
-500 Guards

TO Weapons Dump/Distribution center
-Ammo Depot
-Uniform/Tailors depot
-50 Guards
-Weapons Depot
-Food Depot

Basic Training Camp
-150 feild Instructors
-200 Class-room Instructors
-Marching Yard
-Obstacle Course
-Firing Range
-Medical Clinic
-Acedemic Building
-Barracks for 5,000 recruits
-Armory
-50 Guards

Imperial Command Acedemy
-200 Acedemic Instructors
-Fitness Center
-Simulation Center
-Military Library
-Barracks for 1,000
-Armory
-50 Guards

Imperial Guards Academy
-400 Feild Instructors
-Marching Yard
-Obstacle Course
-Firing Range
-Medical Facility
-Armory
-No Barracks. Recruits expected to live "In the Elements".
-Food Distribution Tent.
-50 Guards

Imperial Air Academy
-50 Instructors
-200 Acedemic Instructors
-Air strips
-500 MiG training Fighters
-500 UH-1 Iroquois Training Choppers
-100 XV-15 Tiltrotor Training Vehicules
-Mechanic Hangers
-Hangers
-Barracks for 5,000 persective pilots
-Air-combat similation complex
-50 Guards

Imperial Logistical Adacemy
-300 Acedemic Instructors
-50 Feild Instructors
-Motor Pool
-Professional Driving School
-Training Feild
-Training Roads
-50 Guards

Albania:
-Tirana Imperial Security base
-Vlore Regional Naval Command

Bosnia:
-Sarajevo Imperial Security Base
-Mostar Regional Air Base

Congo, United Province of the
-Kindo Imperial Air Base
-Kinsasha Regional Air Command
-Likasi Regional Air Command
-Gbadolite Regional Air Command
-Banana Regional Naval Command
-Kindo Imperial Army Base ~ 4th battlegroup
-Kinsasha Imperial Army Base ~ 6th battlegroup
-Likasi Imperial Security Base
-Gbadolite Imperial Security Base
-Ouesso Imperial Security Base
-Madingo-Kayes Imperial Security Base
-Kindo TO Command Center
-Kinsasha Imperial Logistical Adacemy

Croatia:
-Zagreb Imperial Army Base ~ 1st Battlegroup
-Zagreb Imperial Air Base
-Zagreb Imperial Air Academy
-Zagreb Imperial Logistical Adacemy
-Dubrovnik Imperial Guards Academy
-Zagreb Imperial Command Acedemy
-Zagreb Imperial Basic Training Camp
-Dubrovnik Regional Naval Command
-Split Imperial Naval Base

Cyprus:
-Mount Olympus Imperial Army Base ~ 7th Battlegroup
-Mount Olympus Regional Air Command
-Nicosia TO Command Center

Greece:
-Kavala Regional Air Command
-Athens Regional Air Command
-Irakelion Regional Naval Command
-Chalkis Regional Naval Command
-Athens Imperial Army Base ~ 5th battlegroup
-Kavala Imperial Security Base
-Ioannina Imperial Security Base
-Ioannina TO Command Center

Italy:
-Rome Imperial Air Base
-Turin Regional Air Command
-Messina Imperial Naval Base
-Genoa Regional Naval Command
-Rome Imperial Army Base ~ 3rd battlegroup
-Turin Imperial Security Base
-Sassari Imperial Security Base
-Bologna TO Command Center
-Rome Imperial Guards Academy
-Rome Imperial Command Acedemy

Iraq:
-Bhagdad Imperial Air Base
-Mosul Regional Air Command
-Al Basarah Regional Air Command
-Uum Qasr Regional Naval Command
-Bhagdad Imperial Army Base ~
-Al Basarah Imperial Security Base
-Mosul Imperial Security Base
-Bhagdad TO Command Center
-Bhagdad Imperial Air Academy

Kuwait:
-Kuwait Imperial Security base
-Kuwait Regional Naval Command
Kuwait TO Command Center

Macedonia:
-Veles Regional Air Command
-Veles Imperial Security Base
-Skopje TO Command Center

Montenegro:
-Tivat Regional Naval Command
-Bobotov Kuk Imperial Army Base ~ 2nd Battlegroup
-Podgroica TO Command Center

Slovenia:
-Ljubljana Regional Air Command
-Ljubljana Imperial Security Base
-Ljubljana TO Command Center

Syria:
-Tadmur Imperial Security Base
-Tartus Imperial Security Base
-Tartus Imperial Navy Base
-Tadmur Regional Air Command

NOTE: Most bases were located around populated areas for simple reasons. 1). Being the easy defensibility for them, as if an invading army comes near, Militias are drawn up for furthering the defence of the base. 2). Geopolitical location. 3). To better protect the cities themselves from assault.

NOTE2: UE does not like the MEADS being in place. So, if decided by ALM to ban the MEADs, consider those to be Patriot Emplacements, despite the fact that I would've been able to build so many more Patriots...

Alif Laam Miim

11-01-2007, 00:43

7th 'International Legion'- General Orel 56,611 Fighting Men
25th Infantry - Lt. General Vyacheslav - 20,840 Fighting Men
26th Infantry - Lt. General Eberardo - 20,840 Fighting Men
27th Infantry - Lt. General Raymond - 14,931 Fighting Men
28th Calvary - Lt. General Shafaqat

I can venture a guess as to the whereabouts of the other units, but where are these guys located?

United Earthlings

11-01-2007, 01:42

As you requested, redirected from the main OCC thread.

(1)The RUN will not be using nukes or Eurobomber planes, as much as Vineyard will not be using the MEADS system [for different reasons of course...]
(2)Warta Endor and Azaha forces will not be employed by either side for any reason [if only to avoid entangling those countries - if they return and oblige themselves to join the war, they may do so at that time].
(5)I'm still waiting for the reaction to the bombings initially proposed and authorized by Sharina and how successful [if at all] they would be.

1. The RUN will be using nukes, if I so choose since they "have" been in operation way before the war starts. Here is your proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#United_States-NATO_nuclear_weapons_sharing). All I did was a test to show I had them. December 10th, 2006-if indeed it has even started. Since, it hasn't-you didn't clarify the issue. Only added to it. Eurobombers are just a prototype, if they do indeed enter service it will be during the war if there is one. At the rate were going, I'm starting to doubt they'll be one.

2. Works for me.

5. That's nice, I'm still waiting for Sharina to reply to this- full text of the post. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12086495&postcount=77

Here's the IC part, the most important. As I stated at the top of the post, his response to the message below will decided my course of action. As, you can see I'm still waiting too. Shall, we sing a song while we wait?

IC: [OCC: I'm assuming you still allow a free press. :D, time frame wise you decide when this message would have the most impact.] Breaking News: CNN has just received new information about the attacks in the Cayman Islands. What your about to see my shock you. From one of it's reporters in the area, CNN manage to acquire the following images and voice recording during the night of the attack.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/num/num1.html What you are looking at is a Cavour class Aircraft Carrier. If, you look closely at the picture you can see an Italian/Vineyardian Flag at the mast of the ship. In the background is the Cayman Islands. [OCC: Image in the background it’s night, the ship is lit up and you can see the flag mast and the Islands]. Why a Italian Vessel was near the Cayman Islands has yet to be answered. Also, if it is the same Italian Vessel that went through the Panama Canal just days before also remains unanswered as does the question of why the Sharina Government is working with our enemies.

The following radio transmission was recorded, according to our experts during the time of the attack. "::FIRE FIRE FIRE!::" The voices you hear are speaking Italian/Vineyardian. No word about the attacks have been issued by the Sharina Government and no official in the Sharina Government, the Republic or in the Vineyard Empire could be reached for comment on this new information.

CNN will continue to give you the latest news about the attacks in the Cayman Islands.

OCC: From there assume the other News agencies start to pick up on the story and run it.

Vineyard

11-01-2007, 02:13

Cyprus:
-Mount Olympus Imperial Army Base ~ 7th Battlegroup
-Mount Olympus Regional Air Command
-Nicosia TO Command Center

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cy.html

Thats their primary base. But I had not realized that you didnt know where they are currently stationed... So hell. Ill rattle off the curent positions of all troops in the Empire.

1st and 5th battlegroup in Alpine Border-line fortifications bordering France. Dug in, on the alert.

2nd Battlegroup preparing assault on Argentina. Troops are well rested, and supplies are plentiful.

3rd battlegroup is in Iraq. 2 Infantry divisions are preparing the "Layered defences" on the beaches of Iraq, extending about 10 miles to the rear. Behind that, the Calvery Division of the 3rd is stationed. 1 Infantry Division in in Bhagdad, aiding government construction projects, restoration projectas, and policing activities. Busy but ready for anything that is thrown at them.

4th, 6th and 7th Battlegroups have been positioned around Gabon (I posted the 'paint' positions earlier) along with dozens of Reserve Divisions ment to 'sweep' the remenants of the Initial assault.

Imperial Guard has prepared for a massive invasion, and is ready to deploy in the Northern parts of Sardinia. The Guard will launch an assault somewhere, depending on if MC joins or not...

Imperial Navy is exactly where Sharina wants it. Why? In the intrests of unity of command, the smaller Imperial navy has temporarily subordinated itself to the Sharinian Naval command, and is jointly operating with the Sharinian Fleet.

The Vineyardian Submarine fleet is scouring the medeteranian, and elements are participating in the 100-mile blockade by GR. Sabetour teams have been (Secretly) dispatched via light sub to take care of RUN shipping infastructure.

What else...

All Bombers have been preped at the Roma Imperial Air Base, along with thousands of fighters. Room is being amde for the arrival of Sharinian Bombers. Reason is to be revealed at a later date... its a suprise!

Also; I just noticed. Why does UE have 'control' over Chile, Paraguay, and Uruguay...? Arnt those neutural nations?

Brinkman Isle

11-01-2007, 02:23

Orbat

Along the Bolivian – Brazilian Border in Paraguay
75,000 Soldiers [Only 20,000 Combat]
1st Light Infantry Division
2nd Light Infantry Division
[see military dec page for stats on army]

Logistical Bases for these are located in [SIC] various bases in Argentina

Peacekeeping in Suriname and French Guiana
105,000 Soldiers [Only 30,000 Combat]
5th Marine Infantry Division
6th Marine Infantry Division
10th Marine Mechanized Division

Logistical Bases for these are located in Venezuela and [sic] various bases in Argentina

North Pacific Fleet stationed off the coast of Southern Chile
Kitty Hawk Class Carriers [2]
Nimitz Class Carrier [1]
Ticonderoga Class [3]
Albany Class [1]
Perry Class [3]
Avenger Class Mine Countermeasure [2]
Austin Class Landing Platform Dock [6]
Ohio Class SSGN Submarine [1]
Los Angeles Class Attack Submarine [2]
Virginia Class Attack Submarine [1]
Auk Class Minesweeper [1]
Modified Frank S. Besson Class Amphibious Transports [4]
Knox Class Frigate [2]
Zumwalt Class Guided Missile Destroyers [2]
Blue Ridge Class Command Ship [1]

Sharina

11-01-2007, 03:00

As you requested, redirected from the main OCC thread.

1. The RUN will be using nukes, if I so choose since they "have" been in operation way before the war starts. Here is your proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#United_States-NATO_nuclear_weapons_sharing). All I did was a test to show I had them. December 10th, 2006-if indeed it has even started. Since, it hasn't-you didn't clarify the issue. Only added to it. Eurobombers are just a prototype, if they do indeed enter service it will be during the war if there is one. At the rate were going, I'm starting to doubt they'll be one.

2. Works for me.

5. That's nice, I'm still waiting for Sharina to reply to this- full text of the post. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12086495&postcount=77

Here's the IC part, the most important. As I stated at the top of the post, his response to the message below will decided my course of action. As, you can see I'm still waiting too. Shall, we sing a song while we wait?

IC: [OCC: I'm assuming you still allow a free press. :D, time frame wise you decide when this message would have the most impact.] Breaking News: CNN has just received new information about the attacks in the Cayman Islands. What your about to see my shock you. From one of it's reporters in the area, CNN manage to acquire the following images and voice recording during the night of the attack.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/num/num1.html What you are looking at is a Cavour class Aircraft Carrier. If, you look closely at the picture you can see an Italian/Vineyardian Flag at the mast of the ship. In the background is the Cayman Islands. [OCC: Image in the background it’s night, the ship is lit up and you can see the flag mast and the Islands]. Why a Italian Vessel was near the Cayman Islands has yet to be answered. Also, if it is the same Italian Vessel that went through the Panama Canal just days before also remains unanswered as does the question of why the Sharina Government is working with our enemies.

The following radio transmission was recorded, according to our experts during the time of the attack. "::FIRE FIRE FIRE!::" The voices you hear are speaking Italian/Vineyardian. No word about the attacks have been issued by the Sharina Government and no official in the Sharina Government, the Republic or in the Vineyard Empire could be reached for comment on this new information.

CNN will continue to give you the latest news about the attacks in the Cayman Islands.

OCC: From there assume the other News agencies start to pick up on the story and run it.

I actually declared war under the IC impression that the RUN attacked the Cayman Islands (even though OOC'ly I know Vineyard did it). Essentially, IC-wise, Sharina does not know Vineyard framed the RUN for the Cayman Islands attacks.

Post in question:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12042833&postcount=66

In addition, there was some OOC contention regarding the CNN catching the Vineyardian stuff on TV, I believe.

Thus, war has *already* been declared and has *already* begun. However, owing to the X-mas holidays and the absence of several players, the time is frozen at *that* instant until we all resume our activity and I'm hoping that begins this week.

----------------------------------------

I will put up some concrete numbers for my military bases. I will also outline the numbers of troops crossing over into Venzeula, the number of cruise missiles, numbers of B-2 and other bombers, and so forth. Hopefully I can get all this done by tonight or tomorrow as I have a lot of free time to do all this stuff tonight + tomorrow.

Then ALM should pretty much have everything he needs from me for the initial stage of the war.

----------------------------------------

I do need to raise a point of contention though. I'm wary of nuke usage mainly because it can be a RP-killer in wars. I've already outlined a likely scenario should nuclear weapons be employed.

1. The RUN launches a nuke (or several) aganist Sharina.

2. Sharina then retaliates with nukes.

3. RUN's allies retaliates with nukes aganist Sharina.

4. Sharina retaliates with total carpet nuking of the RUN's allies.

5. Lethal radioactivity across the globe. Thousands of nukes went off. Civilization is wiped out. Earth V dies.

6. All our roleplays and hard work would have been for nothing.

To be honest, I am not worried about the RUN's nuclear attack. After all, the RUN will probably only have a few bombs- enough to nuke maybe 1, 2, or 3 major cities or just military targets. To compare, Sharina has 5,000+ bombs (the current US stockpile but seeing that the nuclear non-profileration treaty doesn't exist in Earth V, the US had like 10,000 nukes prior to that treaty). Sharina is capable of carpet nuking the RUN and have several thousand nukes to spare. Thus the whole "nuclear deterrant" wouldn't work for the RUN aganist Sharina.

I actually loathe nukes for what they can do to RP's. Even if I was the only nation in the world that possesses nukes, I would never use them (assuming no other nation develops them then nukes me) no matter whether I had a massive or tiny conventional force. I have seen too many RP's ruined by "OMG! You n00ked me! Now I n00k j00!" and the ensuing nuclear war.

Alif Laam Miim

11-01-2007, 03:04

A response to questions/statements:

1. The RUN will be using nukes, if I so choose since they "have" been in operation way before the war starts. Here is your proof. All I did was a test to show I had them. December 10th, 2006-if indeed it has even started. Since, it hasn't-you didn't clarify the issue. Only added to it. Eurobombers are just a prototype, if they do indeed enter service it will be during the war if there is one. At the rate were going, I'm starting to doubt they'll be one.

A false statement - read the first line:

"Although the Netherlands do not have weapons of mass destruction made by itself, the country does participate in the NATO nuclear weapons sharing arrangements and trains for delivering U.S. nuclear weapons, i.e. it has weapons of mass destruction made by another country."

As I am certain you know, NATO does not exist in this time frame, and thus the basis for the ownership of nuclear weapons in the Netherlands is voided. Furthermore, the ability to produce nuclear weapons does not necessarily entail that (1) one does produce nuclear weapons, or (2) one can produce nuclear weapons. Now, having said that, I'm not doubting that the Netherlands [combined with its constituent states could produce nuclear weapons {you have an ally that possesses nuclear weapons, who might be willing to help}], but at the moment, the declaration of possessing nuclear weapons is a little late and underdeveloped.

10DEC2006 is an IC declaration of war against the RUN, coupled with numerous IC declarations of attacks committed against the RUN [whether they work or not is another question...]. If you are willing to tell me that you are ignoring that IC declaration - which has not been retracted yet by the author of that declaration - then we've got a problem of IC reality.

If they [the Eurobombers] do enter service, they are not immediately available, as they would targeted as an in-war development [same with the nukes]. Coupled with the fact that Diego Garcia actually belongs to Azaha [absent ATM], you would have had to get clearance from Azaha to scuttle the plane and use its template for a new bomber clone.

5. That's nice, I'm still waiting for Sharina to reply to this- full text of the post. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.ph...5&postcount=77

A good point - we should fix this ASAP, although I personally have doubts about such a broadcast. I'm more interested about the F-22 problem [and carriers et cetera...], and how Sharina would commit the bombing. After all, that would put a foil to the point of the first attacks committed.

Also; I just noticed. Why does UE have 'control' over Chile, Paraguay, and Uruguay...? Arnt those neutural nations?

Technically, yes. But as far as I have found, the RUN never backed out its peacekeeping forces sent in after the last guy [Vietnamexico?] fell out, way back when. So, while those governments are affiliated with the RUN, the RUN does control them in some measure, not having effectively declared an end to the occupation [for annexation or withdrawal, I don't know...]. So until otherwise mentioned, those territories are under control militarily by the RUN [albeit, he can't use the resources of those given territories, but he has courteously given us military declarations for those countries...].

Sharina

11-01-2007, 03:20

Here's my military declaration:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11993199&postcount=3

Here's a bit more in-detail of my military (approximate numbers)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12052061&postcount=70

I have 200,000 troops crossing over into Venzeula (1 Military Group), optimized for jungle, mountainous, and Amazon terrain warfare as Colombia, Ecaudor, and Panama have substantial jungle and rough terrain (Andes Mountains).

I have 2 Fleet Task Forces in the Caribbean, 1 in the Atlantic, and 2 in the Pacific (1 near San Fransisco, and another 1 near Panama)

Each Task Force has the following amount of ships (multiply these by 5 to get my total Navy numbers).

2 Iowa class Battleships
4 Montana class Battleships ****
6 Nimitz Supercarriers
20 AEGIS cruisers
40 Arleigh Burke destroyers
100 ships of varying classes (resupply, troop transports, refuelers, salvage, etc.)

I also have five submarine task forces. Each sub task force has the following ships (same as the main naval forces).

20 Virginia attack submarines
10 Ohio class ballistic submarines (usually equipped with cruise missiles, but there's 2 subs per task force equipped with nukes even though I never use or want nukes).

2 Sub Task Forces = Caribbean
2 Sub Task Forces = Pacific (San Fransisco and Panama)
1 Sub Task Force = Straits of Gilabratar (blockade and sink incoming enemy ships)

The extra troop numbers I stated in my military declaration are essentially National Guard, Coastal Guard, National Reserve (like the RL US Reserve Army), logistics personnel, command centers, generals, admirals, military academy instructors, etc.

What else do you need, ALM? I'll try to provide more info if needed.

Sharina

11-01-2007, 03:26

To address ALM's question about the F-22's.

My F-22's are taking off from land bases, and their job is to shut down all enemy air activity within the Americas. The carriers are equipped with F-18's and such, like RL Nimitz Carriers. My bombers are intercontiental in range (B-52, B-2, B-1 Lancer, B-70) so they can take off from bases in California, the Mid-West, or East Coast and hit targets in Europe no problem. They even go as far as Iraq in RL in 1 trip.

Military Command

11-01-2007, 04:27

I don't know if Republic of United Nations have made his attations known yet with what he is going to be doing in the war. I am going to be taking a defencive state right now I am not going to be making open conflict unless I am attacked in any of my nations. I am going to be placing troops on high alert on my borders with the Empire of Vineyard. I am going to be placing a recall to any and all citizens of the United Citizen Federation. I will up hold any non aggation pacts I have signed with other nations. So as of right now I am going to be finishing up my English Campain until otherwise need.

Sharina

11-01-2007, 04:34

Vineyard

11-01-2007, 06:09

IC: [OCC: I'm assuming you still allow a free press. :D, time frame wise you decide when this message would have the most impact.] Breaking News: CNN has just received new information about the attacks in the Cayman Islands. What your about to see my shock you. From one of it's reporters in the area, CNN manage to acquire the following images and voice recording during the night of the attack.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/num/num1.html What you are looking at is a Cavour class Aircraft Carrier. If, you look closely at the picture you can see an Italian/Vineyardian Flag at the mast of the ship. In the background is the Cayman Islands. [OCC: Image in the background it’s night, the ship is lit up and you can see the flag mast and the Islands]. Why a Italian Vessel was near the Cayman Islands has yet to be answered. Also, if it is the same Italian Vessel that went through the Panama Canal just days before also remains unanswered as does the question of why the Sharina Government is working with our enemies.

The following radio transmission was recorded, according to our experts during the time of the attack. "::FIRE FIRE FIRE!::" The voices you hear are speaking Italian/Vineyardian. No word about the attacks have been issued by the Sharina Government and no official in the Sharina Government, the Republic or in the Vineyard Empire could be reached for comment on this new information.

CNN will continue to give you the latest news about the attacks in the Cayman Islands.

OCC: From there assume the other News agencies start to pick up on the story and run it.

Im pretty sure the general consensus was that this would have been very difficult to pull off--and unlikly. The odds that none of my ships picked up your sub, the odds that you sub happened opon the battlegroup, the odds that Sharina would not have picked up your submarine, AND the odds that your navy would have any semblence of effectiveness when fanned out in "defencive patrols" along the "Venesuelian coast", which consqeuently spans the entire carribbean, was unlikly. We have already chewed through this issue.

On top of it all, as previously stated, my Carrier was not within visual range of the Islands. Dozens of miles away. "You never said anything spcific about that!' Well, sir, you never RPed, even SICly, your submarines watching panama, picking up my fleet, following it, and filming it until the auctual deed was done. Its a pretty blatent godmod on your part, but lets see what ALM thinks. I adhere to his rules. If he lables it as doable, and as legitimate RP, then I will accept it.

Im tired, and im heading for NYC in the morning. Conference of sorts. I will probably get back to you fellas occasionally. Permission to commence war during my 4 day absence... I'll try to get on occasionally like I previously said.

Alif Laam Miim

11-01-2007, 16:37

Im pretty sure the general consensus was that this would have been very difficult to pull off--and unlikly. The odds that none of my ships picked up your sub, the odds that you sub happened opon the battlegroup, the odds that Sharina would not have picked up your submarine, AND the odds that your navy would have any semblence of effectiveness when fanned out in "defencive patrols" along the "Venesuelian coast", which consqeuently spans the entire carribbean, was unlikly. We have already chewed through this issue.

On top of it all, as previously stated, my Carrier was not within visual range of the Islands. Dozens of miles away. "You never said anything spcific about that!' Well, sir, you never RPed, even SICly, your submarines watching panama, picking up my fleet, following it, and filming it until the auctual deed was done. Its a pretty blatent godmod on your part, but lets see what ALM thinks. I adhere to his rules. If he lables it as doable, and as legitimate RP, then I will accept it.

Im tired, and im heading for NYC in the morning. Conference of sorts. I will probably get back to you fellas occasionally. Permission to commence war during my 4 day absence... I'll try to get on occasionally like I previously said.

I typically tend to rule on what's specific. I'm going to look into the submarine incident, and see what was specifically said. I'll assume it's on the said thread?

Alif Laam Miim

12-01-2007, 06:56

Here's what I'm going to say about it:

[1]THE OBVIOUS

26NOV2006 - Sharina grants permission to a Vineyardian frigate and a Vineyardian carrier to cross the Panama Canal [which has been explained to have been expanded to accommodate the large vessel].

28NOV2006 - RUN issues orders to its navy in the Caribbean to patrol waters

05DEC2006 - Vineyard launches an attack on Georgetown, starting with sniper squads [Navy Seals?], followed by a carrier-based aerial attack

06DEC2006 - Sharina blames the RUN, declares war. [?:confused:? how many freaking declarations of war are there?]

15DEC2006 - "CNN" presents a stunning presentation about how the whole event was staged.

[Time being rather fluid, I'm assuming that the events are connected by more than 3 weeks of intermittent time...]

[2] THE DETAILS

Point of Contention A

While Vineyard cleverly indicated the position of his attacking special forces masquerading as RUN soldiers, he failed to indicate where the Cavour carrier was based at the moment. Depending on where Vineyard breaks anchor, that might provide an opportunity for the RUN to minimally scout a carrier and its activities.

Point of Contention B

There is supposedly a storm approaching? Why on earth would an aircraft carrier want to launch aircraft on an impending storm, especially with the threat that the planes will have a much harder time landing? That said, how would a submarine get a minimally clear picture of a carrier by happenstance launching its planes?

Point of Contention C

It's been said many times, but the RUN never clearly specifies an submarines to follow any carriers [even as part of patrol], except when presenting the information on the CNN press release. As such, having one of the RUN's submarine passing by a carrier in the Caribbean [again, POC A].

Point of Contention D

The radio call:

::FIRE FIRE FIRE!:: The radio crackled.

... is not really not a technical aerial term, and hence would not be used by experienced pilots at all [planes don't "fire" - except their main guns...]. Unless Vineyard has changed the ignition and launch terms, these are terms more than likely used by hapless police or firefighters on the ground.

Point of Contention E

The declaration:

If, you look closely at the picture you can see an Italian/Vineyardian Flag at the mast of the ship. In the background is the Cayman Islands.

...is not at this moment adequate. That assumes first of all that Vineyard's ship is in near range with the island [standard range of sight on turbulent seas is limited, even with lights]. This assumes first and foremost that the people from the island can see the carrier, and that whoever videotaped this not only saw the carrier but also the island, which might also mean that the carrier had the opportunity [not likely, in turbulent waters...] to spot the submarine. Furthermore, the launching of planes would have been heard from the coast, so unless Sharina was sleeping completely on the job, his own defense forces SHOULD have retaliated against Vineyard's ["RUN"] attacks. If Vineyard's carrier is more distant from the shores, this is a false statement.

Point of Contention F

Three of the boats peeled off, while the remaining 4 kept going into the harbor.

Two boats pulled up against ladders onto a dock, while the other two pulled up to another dock.

30 minutes later, 3 dark rubber boats slipped off into the night.

Moments later, [U]6 rubber boats appeared out of the night, and were swiftly brought on board.

I doubt that the Ministry of Instruction in Vineyard changed mathematical rules, and I doubt that Vineyard would readily admit losing a rubber boat in turbulent seas - so... where did that other boat go?

Also:

His small group of 2 anti-air frigates

From whence did these arrive?

Point of Contention G

"People of Sharina and the world, I come before you today with grim news. Earlier this week, special forces troops attacked and massacred the people of Georgetown in the Cayman Islands. The special force death squad made a grave mistake, as they left evidence. The evidence at the Georgetown Massacre points the finger at the Republic of United Nations. The spent bullet casings, aircraft profiles, and several other pieces of evidence reveal the weapons, ammunition, and such are European in origin.

This horrific atrocity committed by the Republic of United Nations must not be allowed to stand. They killed at least a hundred civilians and several dozen police officers. They even attacked Governor John Ibis of the Cayman Islands inside his own home. The Republic proclaims peace, yet commits in such atrocious actions. This attack upon the Cayman Islands clearly means only one thing- the Republic is planning to invade the Cayman Islands despite proclaiming peace.

The Republic must answer for their crimes today in Georgetown, and the slain civilians shall be avenged. Sharina will not rest until justice is brought upon those responible. The Republic has made a grave mistake by attacking Sharina in such an underhanded and atrocious manner, and now will pay the consquences for doing so.

A state of war now exists between Sharina and the Republic of United Nations.

May fortune be with us, and may it punish the Republic of United nations."

Unless this is complete demagoguery, there are serious elements that are either missing or false.

*You make mention to the SpecOps running through Georgetown, yet no mention is made to the air attacks [aside from a light note on airplane profiles, in dark skies during a storm presumably...] - I suppose on top of it, there isn't too much emotion in the words to indicate disgust. but that may be a matter o interpretation [after all, did you RLly lose hundreds of citizens to a bomb raid?].
*HKG36 uses NATO standard 5.56 ammunition, so unless Sharina has adopted a different weapons system, labeling it as "European" is a half-truth.
*The death toll ought to be higher [although the word is careful...], since Vineyarrd did target civilian neighborhoods, before running on the citizenry [wherever else they would be at night during a storm...]
*The statement indicating RUN's intention to invade the Cayman Islands is not defensible by any evidence provided. The only proof given is that the "RUN" wants to beat any resolve on Sharina's behalf to wage a war against the RUN [of course!!! the attack is more terrorist than it is military, since the target is neither military nor strategical, except remotely by economic standards. ICly, anyone hearing this would have a hard time believing that the RUN would plan such a dastard operation to attack the citizens [not soldiers] of a foreign state.

Point of Contention H - My biggest point so far:

ICly, the RUN never denied involvement in the act [unless it's posted elsewhere]. Sure, CNN made a review that is debatable about how the RUN didn't do it, but the difference is that the RUN did not say it. After 9-11, al Qaeda [specifically bin Laden] was quick claim responsibilty for the attack, so there was no doubt about who did it [mostly because he doesn't want someone else to take credit for "his" work]. But in this instance, the RUN has made no reply to the declaration indicating that their state(s) is/are not rersponsible for the atrocities in Georgetown. Even if any doubt would exist in the minds of watching countries, it would be hard for those countries would be hard-pressed to claim that RUN didn't commit the attacks, since [of course] the RUN is the only culprit in the incident [the CNN episode can be blamed as an attempt to press the attack onto another enemy considered worse than the RUN, despite the recent impasse].

[3] DECISION

This is not a final decision, but as far the IC opinion is considered, the RUN is still in the spotlight as the culprit for the blame.

The submarine and carrier incident have too many radicals that need clarification before I can judge anything. And what exactly happened to that storm that everyone seemed to ignore? I hope that this allows us to speed our progress on this issue...

Sharina

12-01-2007, 08:03

Point of Contention G

Unless this is complete demagoguery, there are serious elements that are either missing or false.

*You make mention to the SpecOps running through Georgetown, yet no mention is made to the air attacks [aside from a light note on airplane profiles, in dark skies during a storm presumably...] - I suppose on top of it, there isn't too much emotion in the words to indicate disgust. but that may be a matter o interpretation [after all, did you RLly lose hundreds of citizens to a bomb raid?].
*HKG36 uses NATO standard 5.56 ammunition, so unless Sharina has adopted a different weapons system, labeling it as "European" is a half-truth.
*The death toll ought to be higher [although the word is careful...], since Vineyarrd did target civilian neighborhoods, before running on the citizenry [wherever else they would be at night during a storm...]
*The statement indicating RUN's intention to invade the Cayman Islands is not defensible by any evidence provided. The only proof given is that the "RUN" wants to beat any resolve on Sharina's behalf to wage a war against the RUN [of course!!! the attack is more terrorist than it is military, since the target is neither military nor strategical, except remotely by economic standards. ICly, anyone hearing this would have a hard time believing that the RUN would plan such a dastard operation to attack the citizens [not soldiers] of a foreign state.

Point 1: This was not an intentional omission on my part on skipping the part about the aircraft attacks. Chalk it up to quick writing of the post.

Point 2: NATO doesn't exist in Earth V as far as I know. Thus, the gun ammunition may be different, or developed by different nations. The HKG36 could have been developed to fire 6mm rounds or 4mm rounds or what have you as NATO standardization doesn't exist in Earth V (again as far as I know).

Point 3: Recall that the Caymans has a population of 10,000 or so. 150 - 200 deaths out of 10,000 people is a somewhat more signifcant figure than 200 deaths out of 1,000,000 people. 200 deaths would be far more significant if the population was only 1,000 or even as low as 500.

Point 4: Tensions were already high at the time of the attacks. With high tensions, it only takes a small spark to set off a powder keg. I could put forth an example in real life- the US invaded Afghanistan and Taliban because of 9/11 terrorism. Admittedly, tensions were of a different type between the US and Afghanistan / Taliban prior to 9/11.

Let me put forth another example- this time hypothetical. Suppose a force resembling Chinese suddenly invades a part of South America or Latin America in real life. The US would think China is invading. Granted, RL China didn't already expand and annex territory within the Americas prior to this "small invasion".

The American people supported the invasion of Afghanistan to oust Osama Bin Laden and his benefactors. The American people would most likely support an US effort to evict what is believed to be China from its "small invasion somewhere in South America or Latin America". Thus in this case, the Sharina people would support such a declaration aganist the RUN because they do not want RUN to gobble up more land in America. Even though the RUN proclaims it doesn't want to expand, it still does- it expanded into Gabon and now Sweden. In the eyes of the Sharinan people, it is only a matter of time before the RUN decides to grab, say, Florida or Virginia or the rest of South America not controlled by Braska.

Essentially, this issue comes down to believability and credibility. Compare the RUN's declarations of peace, love, and unity while it continues to expand and invade into other nations- Gabon and Sweden as examples- which renders the RUN's declarations kind of hypocritical. Sharina has not expanded in quite some time, and has not expanded elsewhere- I.E. not expanding outside of the Americas, whereas the RUN is trying to expand in every corner of the world- Europe, Africa, Asia, and America. Whose word would be more believable- the RUN's word (the expansionism of RUN despite their proclaimations) or Sharina's word (Sharina has remained true to its word- no lying or sweet-talking about expansionism).

United Earthlings

12-01-2007, 12:53

Yeah, now were getting somewhere.

1. Technically, yes. But as far as I have found, the RUN never backed out its peacekeeping forces sent in after the last guy [Vietnamexico?] fell out, way back when. So, while those governments are affiliated with the RUN, the RUN does control them in some measure, not having effectively declared an end to the occupation [for annexation or withdrawal, I don't know...]. So until otherwise mentioned, those territories are under control militarily by the RUN [albeit, he can't use the resources of those given territories, but he has courteously given us military declarations for those countries...].

Lots of reading, but I posted the withdraw of my forces from Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay. Occupation has been over for many years. The RUN does not control the military of those three countries in any way shape or form. Each nation is on its own. I'm just Roleplaying for them as I haven't completely wrapped up my RP for them with Brinkman.

The Rules for them are so... They will be declaring their neutrality if any war breaks out. They are going to try to stay out of the war, however depending how the war goes will determine the nations ultimate outcome. If, they are invaded then yes they will be joining the war against the country that invaded them. Example- Sharina for some reason invades Chile to get at Argentina. This action would drive Chile into the RUN camp. The opposite is true. If, Argentina were to invaded Paraguay for example- it would drive them into Sharina's Camp. More nations- add more examples.

Point of Contention B: Which, why I was unable to specify state where the Carrier was. From the impression I got his planes and boats were fairly close to the Island for them to attack and be retrieved so quickly, i.e. the Islands were in sight. By sitting still watching it, sub doesn't move it doesn't make any noise. Pop the periscope up for a quick glance, modern periscopes are equipped with cameras (regular cameras not video cameras)- take a few pictures and luck would have it took the picture at the right time. None of what I describe above is impossible.

Point of Contention C: The sub was following the Carrier and it's small fleet. It was not passing by. Next question you already asked-I reassigned a sub that was already on patrol in the Caribbean to follow the Carrier once I found out about it through monitoring the TV networks.

Point of Contention E: I already address these issues, so here they are for the final time. 1. From the impression I got from Vineyard, his Carrier was close. So, I don't care where his Carrier was- Island no Island- I still got a single picture of his Carrier launching it's aircraft. 2. Submarines under water, unless Vineyardians can see through murky water and at night their not going to see the Carrier. hear maybe, but the captain was under orders to stay undetected whatever the cost. 3. Sharina did state OCC that he was sleeping on the job. IC-since Sharina never responded is good news for me.

Point of Contention G: I don't have much to comment on this point expect, I asked Sharina some of those same questions. They were just wordy different. "ICly, anyone hearing this would have a hard time believing that the RUN would plan such a dastard operation to attack the citizens [not soldiers] of a foreign state" I had a hard time believing it and I RP as the RUN. Why, would I attack the Caymans? What possible motivation could their be? What do I gain out of it expect a war with Sharina. I have had weeks to think about this very answer and have yet no idea why I would do such a thing. Has any of my nations every slaughtered citizens in cold blood? Now, Sharina along with a few other nations accuse me of being a terrorist nation, yet they have no proof of that. While, I have IC statements of me helping nations out.

Point of Contention H: First off, as I said I was waiting for Sharina to responded to my message. Then, I forget and then I went on vacation. So, yes your right I haven't declared if I did it or not. So, now’s a good time as ever.

My point-This is while I have decided to ignore the freeze on the war and bring it up to current time. You see the headaches I was talking about. There are just to many issues they are unresolved and it we be a week before we even begin to sort them out all together. It's a new year, it's time to start a new.

The war will start when everyone joins in. So, while yes Sharina has declared war. There are no replies by me responding to his actions and his fleets of ships and bombers wouldn't be sitting still for nearly a year now. Yes-yes I get it-it's called fluid time. Sadly, Fluid time won't work in our case. So, unless Sharina has been attacking himself- there is no war as I understand it. A war takes at least two people. Right, now it's just Sharina and as you showed even some of his issues are in question.

Sharina

12-01-2007, 14:05

3. Sharina did state OCC that he was sleeping on the job. IC-since Sharina never responded is good news for me.

I was actually referring to the RADAR operator in the Cayman Islands sleeping on the job, meaning air coverage over the Cayman Islands wouldn't have identified the Vineyardian aircraft as Vineyardian.

Point of Contention G: I don't have much to comment on this point expect, I asked Sharina some of those same questions. They were just wordy different. "ICly, anyone hearing this would have a hard time believing that the RUN would plan such a dastard operation to attack the citizens [not soldiers] of a foreign state" I had a hard time believing it and I RP as the RUN. Why, would I attack the Caymans? What possible motivation could their be? What do I gain out of it expect a war with Sharina. I have had weeks to think about this very answer and have yet no idea why I would do such a thing. Has any of my nations every slaughtered citizens in cold blood? Now, Sharina along with a few other nations accuse me of being a terrorist nation, yet they have no proof of that. While, I have IC statements of me helping nations out.

Wars have begun over misunderstandings such as these. Suppose a force resembling Chinese landed somewhere in the Americas in RL, and invades an area, the US will think China itself is invading. The list of suspects is reduced by process of elimination- Japan = US ally. Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, etc. do not have sufficient military power to launch an attack aganist the Americas en-masse. The only "foes" of the US in Asia would be China and North Korea, and North Korea is hardly in any position to invade mainly due to North Korea's ruined economy (no money to support such a major effort). However, China has troop transports and could concievably fund a large scale military operation as China does have the economy and money to support such an effort. Thus, China is painted as the most likely culprit.

The same process applies to the RUN in Earth V. Sharina lists all European nations who could commit such an attack aganist Sharina like that. The list of suspects is reduced via elimination.

TGSR = Extremely unlikely as TGSR has been an ally and has NEVER participated in any military action in Earth V ever.

Military Command = Somewhat unlikely as he is currently tied up in annexing Britain and he withdrew from the Americas. He is not that stupid to attack Sharina like that and invite a whole world of hurt onto his nation while his military is engaged in Britain.

Moorington = Not likely. He has nothing to gain, and he isn't capable of launching an attack halfway around the world with aircraft and commandoes.

Kopparbergs = Quite unlikely as the nation has been a friend of Sharina for a while. In fact, it was Kopparbergs that sold Ecaudor to Sharina (if I recall correctly) long ago, and there has never been hostile or ill intent between the two nations. Kopparbergs hasn't expressed any interest in acquiring territory or expanding influence within the Americas.

Recolitus = Quite unlikely for the same reasons as Moorington.

Great Romeo = Possible, but the presence of European weapons discounts the possibility of Great Romeoan involvement. Great Romeo uses Soviet equipment which is different from European ones (AK-47's compared to the HKG36's). Besides, Great Romeo doesn't have carriers and such within range of the Cayman Islands. Costa Rica doesn't have much military assets as I blockaded the shipment of military stuff and Great Romeo diverted the stuff back to Russia.

Vineyard (actual culprit) = Not likely (IC view of Sharina- IMPORTANT!)

Sharina knows Vineyard is not that stupid to launch an attack aganist Sharinan assets in the Cayman Islands because if the truth were to be found out, all Vineyardian assets in the Caribbean would be destroyed within scant minutes. Vineyardian vessels are operating with Sharinan vessels, and Vineyardian troops are working with Sharinan troops. Thus, it would be quite counter-productive for Vineyard to ally up with me, then do this attack knowing that Vineyard would be wiped out. Therefore, Sharina eliminates Vineyard as a culprit because of this apparent "ridiclious suicidial attempt scenario". However, we all know OOC'ly that Vineyard attacked me there.

This leaves the RUN as the last European culprit, and the most likely one.

Consider:

1. RUN has expanded territory in the Americas.

2. RUN has a fleet in the Caribbean.

3. Relations with the RUN has plummeted.

4. Tensions are high between Sharina and the RUN over the RUN's expansionism.

5. The RUN continues to expand despite promises not to (Take Gabon and Sweden for examples)

6. This goes aganist the RUN's message of "Peace, Love, and Harmony" it preaches to Sharina.

7. The RUN is violating Sharina's 21st century Monroe Doctrine whereas no other nation has done so (Brinkman and Vineyard haven't attempted to annex territory or expand political control via puppet states in the Americas). Military Command withdrew, thus fulfilling Sharina's 21st century Monroe Doctrine.

Thus, taking all that in consideration, Sharina points the finger at the RUN through a process of logic, and acts upon it.

In RL, the US lashed out aganist Afghanistan and the Taliban, hoping to destroy Al Quaeda after 9/11 even though Al Quaeda existed all through the Middle East and even Pakistan. Suppose an Asian power other than Japan attacked Pearl Harbor during WW-2 (assuming the Asian power has a naval presence similiar to the RUN's naval presence in the Caribbean in Earth V)- the US will automatically think Japan is responible due to Japan's expansionism.

Point of Contention H: First off, as I said I was waiting for Sharina to responded to my message. Then, I forget and then I went on vacation. So, yes your right I haven't declared if I did it or not. So, now’s a good time as ever.

I've explained it in several posts in this thread over the past several days, including this very post.

United Earthlings

12-01-2007, 14:12

Point 1: This was not an intentional omission on my part on skipping the part about the aircraft attacks. Chalk it up to quick writing of the post.

Point 2: NATO doesn't exist in Earth V as far as I know. Thus, the gun ammunition may be different, or developed by different nations. The HKG36 could have been developed to fire 6mm rounds or 4mm rounds or what have you as NATO standardization doesn't exist in Earth V (again as far as I know).

Point 3: Recall that the Caymans has a population of 10,000 or so. 150 - 200 deaths out of 10,000 people is a somewhat more signifcant figure than 200 deaths out of 1,000,000 people. 200 deaths would be far more significant if the population was only 1,000 or even as low as 500.

Point 4: Tensions were already high at the time of the attacks. With high tensions, it only takes a small spark to set off a powder keg. I could put forth an example in real life- the US invaded Afghanistan and Taliban because of 9/11 terrorism. Admittedly, tensions were of a different type between the US and Afghanistan / Taliban prior to 9/11.

Let me put forth another example- this time hypothetical. Suppose a force resembling Chinese suddenly invades a part of South America or Latin America in real life. The US would think China is invading. Granted, RL China didn't already expand and annex territory within the Americas prior to this "small invasion".

The American people supported the invasion of Afghanistan to oust Osama Bin Laden and his benefactors. The American people would most likely support an US effort to evict what is believed to be China from its "small invasion somewhere in South America or Latin America". Thus in this case, the Sharina people would support such a declaration aganist the RUN because they do not want RUN to gobble up more land in America. Even though the RUN proclaims it doesn't want to expand, it still does- it expanded into Gabon and now Sweden. In the eyes of the Sharinan people, it is only a matter of time before the RUN decides to grab, say, Florida or Virginia or the rest of South America not controlled by Braska.

Essentially, this issue comes down to believability and credibility. Compare the RUN's declarations of peace, love, and unity while it continues to expand and invade into other nations- Gabon and Sweden as examples- which renders the RUN's declarations kind of hypocritical. Sharina has not expanded in quite some time, and has not expanded elsewhere- I.E. not expanding outside of the Americas, whereas the RUN is trying to expand in every corner of the world- Europe, Africa, Asia, and America. Whose word would be more believable- the RUN's word (the expansionism of RUN despite their proclaimations) or Sharina's word (Sharina has remained true to its word- no lying or sweet-talking about expansionism).

Point 2: Earth V is based on realism and since NATO has been around since the 1950's. It existed at one point. Though NATO is dead in our Earth V, even in our word it left it's mark and the ammunition is still called the NATO round. If that drives you nuts. Then call it the WESTERN 5.56x45mm Round. As far as I know all modern assault rifles of today use the 5.56x45mm round, including the M-16 which the American military uses. BTW-unless Roleplayed, in real life their exists no 6mm round or 4mm round. There's a 5.56mm, a 5.7mm and a 4.6mm. However, they are completely different shapes and sizes. Even, Russia today has configured some of it's weapons to use the 5.56mm round.

Information about the 5.56mm round and a little history about it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56mm)

Point 3: The Caymans actually have a population of 45,436. 200 deaths in a population of 45,436 would be 0.44% of the population. Looking at it as a percentage it's not really that significant. It's very minor in fact. 40% and up wards I would classify as significant.

Link about the Caymans (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cj.html)

Point 4: Only for you have tensions been building, I was trying to reduce them. I even have an IC post proving it. Here's the full post of it, with the important part at the bottom which you missed. I even re-posted it a few days later and you still missed it. Here's the post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12007155&postcount=57)

and the part I was speaking of. Message to the nation of Sharina:

Why do you hold such hostility towards the Republic? You state it's because you wish to "limit European Influence within the Western Hemisphere". Yet, it was that very Influence that lead to the rise of a America. So, besides the fact that there are more members from other parts of the world then Europe, we know that the "so called European Influence" you speak of is not your problem with the Republic. In all sincerity, we have no idea why the nation of Sharina has such hatred towards nations that were once it's allies and friends. Indeed, the European Influence you despised so much need not be a detrimental thing. As there are many types of influence and not all of them harmful. Surely, the various members of the Republic and the Sharina Technocracy can find common ground that will allow them to work together for building a better world in the Americas. There is no reason for us to be cold war adversaries hell bent on a war that will benefit no one. Is there no place where we can meet on common ground?

We eagerly await your reply

I posted that on November 28th, 2006 at 7:09 AM. A week before you declared war on me. Does, it look like I'm hell bent on war against you preparing to attack you. If, you say yes- then it's you who want war and not me. And I'm quoting for the second time "Surely, the various members of the Republic and the Sharina Technocracy can find common ground that will allow them to work together for building a better world in the Americas."

I posted the message again on December 5th, 2006 at 2:34 PM. That was also hours before you officially declared war. Twice, you missed the message. :headbang: Here's the second posting of it. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12041352&postcount=15)

Either that or you ignored it. Which ever as I have no idea. Never did give me a 3rd chance, who knows that might have done it. You know what they say, 3rd times a charm. See, the only high was you. The rest of us are opposed to the war and were doing everything in their power to prevent it. You on the other hand jump right at the chance.

Do note neither message has been edited.

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In your hypothetical, the United States isn't divided and doesn't control all of Canada, Latin America and Colombia and Ecuador. [Sarcasm]I'm sure the rest of the nations of the known world would really welcome American dominance over the known hemisphere.[Sarcasm] Sarcasm, aside you want a Real Life example. In, 2003 America invades Iraq and most of the support America had in the world for the war on terror went up in smoke. You can count the number of nations on your hand that supported us for the war in Iraq. Realist speaking, you invading all those nations would not get you much standing in the International World. Can you say American Empire, because the rest of the world can. If America tried what you pulled off in real life.

As you your example, no- American wouldn't declare war on the Chinese if it looked like they were invading South America. They would found out who it was for sure first. It would look rather stupid don't you think to declare war on one power and then found out it was someone completely different a few months later.

Essentially, this issue comes down to believability and credibility.

Yes, lets example that issue carefully.

Compare the RUN's declarations of peace, love, and unity while it continues to expand and invade into other nations- Gabon and Sweden as examples- which renders the RUN's declarations kind of hypocritical.

The RUN didn't exist when I RP sending forces into Gabon which I then pulled out. I admitted the error of my ways and I payed for it, dearly. If you would read what I have typed in Sweden, I have sent no military forces into Sweden. The ships are merely docked in port. So, you need different examples. Also, IC my major nations each have their own government, legislative branch and judicial branch. Can your nation say the same. I'm not oppressing the rights of all of North America and some of South America, no matter how you argue it a single country would have a hard time in this day age keeping together a country filled with such a diverse people as yours is.

Sharina's word (Sharina has remained true to its word- no lying or sweet-talking about expansionism). I'm being hypocritical? That's funny you just made two statements in the same paragraph that were the complete opposite. Sharina has not expanded in quite some time, and has not expanded elsewhere- I.E. not expanding outside of the Americas-So, you have expanded. It doesn't matter where- so you are no longer remaining true to your word and are indeed practicing expansionism which proved the point I was making. Who's being a hypocrite now? Is Sharina expanding or not? From, the looks of it, it is.

So, who's word would be more believable. Well, I guess mine because I have not stated I wouldn’t expand any more. In, fact it can be said I've reserved completely and have been trying to limit expansion. Have I annexed Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay? Have I annexed Sweden? Did I invaded the nations DP controlled? Have I invaded Bolivia or Peru? Need I go on?

So, yes the issue does come down to believability and credibility and so far I'm winning that battle.

Sharina

12-01-2007, 15:25

Point 3: The Caymans actually have a population of 45,436. 200 deaths in a population of 45,436 would be 0.44% of the population. Looking at it as a percentage it's not really that significant. It's very minor in fact. 40% and up wards I would classify as significant.

Hmm. I must have mixed the total population of the Cayman Islands with another island, then.

Point 4: Only for you have tensions been building, I was trying to reduce them. I even have an IC post proving it. Here's the full post of it, with the important part at the bottom which you missed. I even re-posted it a few days later and you still missed it. Here's the post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12007155&postcount=57)

and the part I was speaking of.

I posted that on November 28th, 2006 at 7:09 AM. A week before you declared war on me. Does, it look like I'm hell bent on war against you preparing to attack you. If, you say yes- then it's you who want war and not me. And I'm quoting for the second time "Surely, the various members of the Republic and the Sharina Technocracy can find common ground that will allow them to work together for building a better world in the Americas."

I posted the message again on December 5th, 2006 at 2:34 PM. That was also hours before you officially declared war. Twice, you missed the message. :headbang: Here's the second posting of it. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12041352&postcount=15)

Either that or you ignored it. Which ever as I have no idea. Never did give me a 3rd chance, who knows that might have done it. You know what they say, 3rd times a charm. See, the only high was you. The rest of us are opposed to the war and were doing everything in their power to prevent it. You on the other hand jump right at the chance.

Do note neither message has been edited.

Ah, but it does take two to tango for the tension to be reduced. If both sides want a reduction in tension, then tension reduction can and will work. If one side is too suspicious, paranoid, or not interested in backing down, then tensions will still remain high (or at their current state as of whatever the conflict is between the two sides).

I must have missed that message. Do recall that I was having issues with Jolt back then. However, it is too late to do anything about that now as events have already been set in motion by Vineyard's attacks upon the Cayman Islands.

Sarcasm, aside you want a Real Life example. In, 2003 America invades Iraq and most of the support America had in the world for the war on terror went up in smoke. You can count the number of nations on your hand that supported us for the war in Iraq. Realist speaking, you invading all those nations would not get you much standing in the International World. Can you say American Empire, because the rest of the world can. If America tried what you pulled off in real life.

As you your example, no- American wouldn't declare war on the Chinese if it looked like they were invading South America. They would found out who it was for sure first. It would look rather stupid don't you think to declare war on one power and then found out it was someone completely different a few months later.[/quote]

Did the US wait a year or two before invading Afghanistan and Taliban after 9/11? The US practically jumped on them after 9/11.

The RUN didn't exist when I RP sending forces into Gabon which I then pulled out. I admitted the error of my ways and I payed for it, dearly. If you would read what I have typed in Sweden, I have sent no military forces into Sweden. The ships are merely docked in port. So, you need different examples. Also, IC my major nations each have their own government, legislative branch and judicial branch. Can your nation say the same. I'm not oppressing the rights of all of North America and some of South America, no matter how you argue it a single country would have a hard time in this day age keeping together a country filled with such a diverse people as yours is.

OOC'wise I'm aware of what is happening in the RP's, but I'm trying to play from as much IC standpoint as I can. IC'ly my people don't "magically" know all the OOC stuff that I know as a player. To them IC'ly, it seems like the RUN is expanding and growing, which would not be a problem if the expansion had stayed out of the Americas (Argentina, Guyana, the Windward Islands, etc.)

I'm being hypocritical? That's funny you just made two statements in the same paragraph that were the complete opposite. -So, you have expanded. It doesn't matter where- so you are no longer remaining true to your word and are indeed practicing expansionism which proved the point I was making. Who's being a hypocrite now? Is Sharina expanding or not? From, the looks of it, it is.

Sharina has only expanded as a direct response to the RUN's expansionism. The actions in the Caribbean was only taken in direct response to the RUN's acquistion of the Windward Islands. If the RUN did not take the Windward Islands, Sharina would not have felt it necessary to seize the rest of the Caribbean lest it fall in RUN hands.

IC'ly, Sharina is adopting the following stance.

"Not one step further in expansion in the Americas for anybody except Americans."

If either version of the two CSA's (Nuevo Rico's CSA or the new Crazy Monkey's CSA) or Braska expanded, Sharina wouldn't give a damn, considering the old / new CSA and Braska are American nations.

So, who's word would be more believable. Well, I guess mine because I have not stated I wouldn’t expand any more. In, fact it can be said I've reserved completely and have been trying to limit expansion. Have I annexed Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay? Have I annexed Sweden? Did I invaded the nations DP controlled? Have I invaded Bolivia or Peru? Need I go on?

So, yes the issue does come down to believability and credibility and so far I'm winning that battle.

This is where it gets kind of messed up.

OOC'ly I'm aware you have been trying to curtail the RUN's expansionism, and I'm aware you haven't invaded or annexed any of the nations you cited.

IC'ly, my people DO NOT know that. For all they know, the RUN will expand more and more. The peacekeeping troops in Chile, Uruguay, and Paraguay, and the expanding elsewhere in the world. The likiehood of Chile, Uruguay, and Paraguay to become puppet states of the RUN as a result of the peacekeeping troops. The acquistion of the Windward Islands. The annexation of Guyana. These things keep raising red flags IC'ly. Therefore my people BELIEVE that the RUN may decide to expand some more in the Americas based off the recent activities of the RUN. That goes aganist my people's wishes to keep all these nations and territories truly and completely independent from any European, African, or Asian influence and neo-colonialism. (ALL THIS IS IC)

OOC: Sharina (me) knows that RUN is restraining from expanding.

IC: Sharinan leaders and people DO NOT know that the RUN is restraining from expanding. Thus, they felt the need to seize the Caribbean to prevent the RUN from grabbing and expanding any more in the Caribbean. Then they look at South America and fear the RUN will expand into what little remains of "The Free World" (truly independent nations or in other words the unclaimed nations) and set up more puppet states. Thus, this is the source of Sharinan hostility towards the RUN.

Essentially, Sharina would not have expanded if not for the RUN. The RUN *forced* Sharina to expand as a preventative measure to curtail any further RUN expansion. If the RUN had remained with just Venzeula in the Americas, Sharina would have grudingly turned a blind eye to Venzeula and remained content. However, when the RUN acquired more territory in the Americas, in Sharina's eyes it became time to take the gloves off and set off the spiral that led us up to this point IC'ly.

Alif Laam Miim

13-01-2007, 18:22

I'm glad you guys are still talking. In response to the contentions to my contentions in my absence:

Sharina:

1 - I mentioned about NATO standard 5.56mm ammunition. I wasn't referring to the NATO, but more on the 5.56mm. In your military declaration, it indicates that you use the OICW assault rifle. According to my research, the OICW uses HK 5.56mm ammunition [link here (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm) || also here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM29_OICW)]. To make a label "European" is a misnomer, considering that you yourself use the 5.56mm round. My armed forces use the HKG36 as well, and I'm not as nearly European as some of the participants, so granting that these forces weren't using OICWARs, you would need to consider other outside possibilities and thus limit the labeling [because I assure you that I wouldn't attack civilians at all].

2 - Unless your civilian neighborhoods only house 500 people, those numbers should be higher on account that people are sleeping or at home in the night strike. I understand the relativity of the casualty numbers, but on account that Vineyard specifically targeted civilian neighborhoods [and that whatever population was open to using bomb bunkers in the amount of time given is probably low], I find it hard to say that 100 or 200 died. Although I'd also go as far to say that 1000 is also a hard number, given the stormy conditions.

3 - Problem with your Afghanistan situation; Osama bin Laden actually claimed responsibility for the attack, so the USA didn't have to go around blaming people [Iraq for one...] for responsibility of the attack. In this situation, the RUN has neither condoned nor condemned responsibility for the attack, so it is unlikely that you could so easily place the blame on the RUN so absolutely. Of course, it makes it all the harder for the RUN to deny responsibility all the same...

RUN:

4 - I'm having a hard time now, determining how you came to realize that by monitoring the RV networks that a Vineyardian carrier came to pass. Because for one, finding one carrier and one frigate is pretty damned hard. Imagine the Bismarck without satellites [that is considered a lucky strike for the Royal Navy]. Considering all of this mess, I'm surprised that you chose to monitor a carrier with a submarine instead of a satellite [still difficult but much easier in retrospect].

5 - Well, the burden of proof is upon Sharina. As for your actions, I think it can be equally said that helping out other nations has also hurt them a little bit. Whether or not the good outweighs the evil is one matter; whether it matters or not is another. Regardless, on faulty intelligence [which we all oocly know to be the case], Sharina has declared war on the RUN and has since committed attacks upon the RUN. Whether or not you ICly recognize it or not is not debatable.

Sharina

6 - Echoing the sentiments of point 3, Japan claimed responsibility for Pearl Harbor, when it declared war on the USA [which happened a scant few minutes before the attack began. Osama bin Laden accepted responsibility for 9/11 [he also accepted responsibility for a lot of other attacks dating back to the 1998 embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, resulting in hundreds of dead, yet the USA chose to do nothing in lieu of the events, up until recently]. The process may be logically, but you also have to admit that it is either wishful thinking or blinded rage over the attacks.

RUN

7 - I know the RUN was trying to lower tensions, but culturally, they were perhaps escalating those relations. Sharina has its own political and military perspectives and the RUN's continuing presence in the Americas, coupled with their runs of pacification [to use a less harsh term] in the Caribbean and South America, followed by subtle assertions of their right to intervene in those territories, to Sharina self-apparent dismay.

Sharina

8 - If the Chinese invaded South America, the USA would ask questions first before declaring war on the Chinese, fully aware that the impasse between the two powers was on the rise positively [mostly due to economic concerns]. The reaction to the Caymans attack was [for lack of a better word] extreme. Self-justified it may be, but it's somewhat hard to sell to countries outside the conflict. Vineyard caused the attack, so he's not likely to accept responsibility if he wants to hurt the RUN more than he wants to hurt Sharina.

Here's one more question:

Where are Sharina's satellites? Granted, there were storms over the seas that night, so looking at it from satellites would be difficult, but a simple accountibility lesson can be inferred here: the RUN navy has been limited to its territorial possessions, in defense likely [the submarine might have left, and thus might have been detected as well, less likely the latter than the former]; Vineyard's carrier was last spotted heading in a general direction towards Sharina territories [I can't say for lack of intelligence from the source]. If Sharina was well-intent to keep the RUN at bay from further expansion, their satellites would not have been "sleeping" and would have caught any RUN vessels moving from their positions.

Of course, if Sharina's highest military officials are also involved in the plot [perhaps unlikely due to professed state loyalty], that might explain the twisting of otherwise apparent details.

I'm probably being very difficult, but I'd rather be difficult now and get this stuff out of the way or not have it at all, so I'm hoping that this is turning out to be productive for you as well.

Military Command

13-01-2007, 19:04

ALM in respons to your OICW use a Caliber: 5.56 mm NATO (KE) and 20x85mm (HE) which means it does not use a HK 5.56mm round. That is from Modern Firearms.

Alif Laam Miim

13-01-2007, 19:41

ALM in respons to your OICW use a Caliber: 5.56 mm NATO (KE) and 20x85mm (HE) which means it does not use a HK 5.56mm round. That is from Modern Firearms.

my reply:

*OICW uses the HK G36 as its standard for the KE barrel [taken from the same site as you described]
*HKG36 uses 5.56mm NATO ammunition
*OICW uses the same/similar ammunition to the NATO [not existing in Earth V] and HK [exists].

Military Command

13-01-2007, 21:21

I hate to sound ignorant or anything, but I'd like a link to your English RP so that I can follow it. Thanks!

Here is the link to the my English RP
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=514327

I am sorry that it took so long to get it up and everything but I had RL problems with everything on the homefront.

United Earthlings

14-01-2007, 12:27

Here is the link to the my English RP
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=514327

I am sorry that it took so long to get it up and everything but I had RL problems with everything on the homefront.

Welcome back.

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I'm glad you guys are still talking. In response to the contentions to my contentions in my absence:

RUN:

4 - I'm having a hard time now, determining how you came to realize that by monitoring the RV networks that a Vineyardian carrier came to pass. Because for one, finding one carrier and one frigate is pretty damned hard. Imagine the Bismarck without satellites [that is considered a lucky strike for the Royal Navy]. Considering all of this mess, I'm surprised that you chose to monitor a carrier with a submarine instead of a satellite [still difficult but much easier in retrospect].

5 - Well, the burden of proof is upon Sharina. As for your actions, I think it can be equally said that helping out other nations has also hurt them a little bit. Whether or not the good outweighs the evil is one matter; whether it matters or not is another. Regardless, on faulty intelligence [which we all oocly know to be the case], Sharina has declared war on the RUN and has since committed attacks upon the RUN. Whether or not you ICly recognize it or not is not debatable.

7 - I know the RUN was trying to lower tensions, but culturally, they were perhaps escalating those relations. Sharina has its own political and military perspectives and the RUN's continuing presence in the Americas, coupled with their runs of pacification [to use a less harsh term] in the Caribbean and South America, followed by subtle assertions of their right to intervene in those territories, to Sharina self-apparent dismay.

Sharina

8 - If the Chinese invaded South America, the USA would ask questions first before declaring war on the Chinese, fully aware that the impasse between the two powers was on the rise positively [mostly due to economic concerns]. The reaction to the Caymans attack was [for lack of a better word] extreme. Self-justified it may be, but it's somewhat hard to sell to countries outside the conflict. Vineyard caused the attack, so he's not likely to accept responsibility if he wants to hurt the RUN more than he wants to hurt Sharina.

If Sharina was well-intent to keep the RUN at bay from further expansion, their satellites would not have been "sleeping" and would have caught any RUN vessels moving from their positions.

I'm probably being very difficult, but I'd rather be difficult now and get this stuff out of the way or not have it at all, so I'm hoping that this is turning out to be p

I told you there was a lot of talking (issues) still needing to be sorted out. And now for my replies to your points. I let Sharina answer his own.

Point 4:Well, for one-The locks of the Panama Canal began opening slowly before the Vineyardians, a seemingly impossible sight. The Sharinan media quickly got wind of this several minutes later as tourists at the Canal noticed the Vineyardian flags and logos on the carrier begin moving towards the Canal locks. The flurry of cameras, additional tourists, and reporters began converging upon the Panama Canal to witness the historic occassion where a former enemy of Sharina is allowed access through one of Sharina's strategic areas.

Despite this, Sharinan defenses were maintained at high alert so to be ready for any surprises, even though it was hoped by all that surprises would not occur.=Link to Post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11998941&postcount=54)

That is how I first found out, second- Sharina is not the only one with Radar. Three, I do have ships (subs) and aircraft patrolling the area. Fourth-My satellite system though existing as everyone is very well aware of is very small. I have got a few birds up and I mainly rely on humans. That covers monitoring other nations radio traffic, putting people into the field (in this case having a tourist in Panama. As to your example of finding the Bismark, The British seem to have found it just fine with aircraft. The Caribbean is not the Atlantic and I doubt Vineyard had any plans sailing his Carrier anyone near my territories. That allowed me (as it did with Sharina) to determine the course of his fleet. Call a few subs in the area and redirected to probably locations his Carrier will move through. From there, the sub(s) orders were to follow the Carrier and it's small Fleet.

I would also like to add this- you all seem to think satellites are the end all to be all of observation. Spy Satellites, just don't work that way in real life. All a Spy Satellite does is take pictures. It doesn't tell you what’s happening on the ground. For that, you need to have people on the ground in the field. (That my friends is human Intelligence which is what my main focus of gathering information is.) I don't have the resources or funds to have 20+ Spy satellites in orbit. What I do have is a large population based and a population threaten by many nations that are larger then their own.

Point 5: Well as they say, no good deed ever goes unpunished. :D
Sharina might not declare war, if he has to ask questions first. As you said yourself, his war declaration came out of nowhere. Their still remains many unanswered question. As I said before and will say again. I'm not ignoring his attacks on me. If and when everything is worked out to everyone satisfaction and if indeed the war is on. {OCC: I'm still hopefully diplomacy will get a chance, as it does in the real world.} What I am ignoring is the time freeze. If, heaven forbid the war does start in my opinion it should start in the current time, which is now or future now.

Point 7: Perhaps, still the RUN [I] was reaching out in the name of peace to see if our two governments could come to terms and then all of a sudden I get socked with a declaration of war. That message was IC, so Sharina can't say he and his people didn't know the RUN had had a change of heart. Image, my dismay when I got declared war on out of the blue. That's how it was IC.

Here's a great Real life example about tensions not leading to war. In world war 1 Germany in the later years of the war (1916,1917,1918) started to conduct unrestricted submarine warfare. In, 1916 the RMS Lusitania was sunk with 128 Americans being killed. Still, even though credit with turning American towards entering the war in Europe- American did not enter the war in 1916.

The events of both the Lusitania and the attack on the Caymans are very similar. Very little loss of life, attack on civilians and some tensions having existed between Germany and American before the event and between me and Sharina. Germany, was before and after the attacks trying to keep American out of the war. The Germans even issued a war for those sailing on the Lusitania that a war was happening in Europe.

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One final point, as to Sharina's "sleeping" satellites. Unless, he wasn't watching which I find highly unlikely. Sharina would note that all Carriers in the navies of the Republic are in port and all are still in port. I have no current IC posts of them leaving port before the attacks in the Caymans.

So in answer to your question, sometimes you have to ask the difficult questions. So, I'm glad this conservation is taking place as I find it highly productive.

United Earthlings

14-01-2007, 13:42

In Reply to Sharina

Just a few comments, that should add some new light. Thought of a few things to add to your comments. Note-I'm not debating them but, merely adding to them to give you a different perspective.

This leaves the RUN as the last European culprit, and the most likely one.

Consider:

1. RUN has expanded territory in the Americas.

2. RUN has a fleet in the Caribbean.

3. Relations with the RUN has plummeted.

4. Tensions are high between Sharina and the RUN over the RUN's expansionism.

5. The RUN continues to expand despite promises not to (Take Gabon and Sweden for examples)

6. This goes against the RUN's message of "Peace, Love, and Harmony" it preaches to Sharina.

7. The RUN is violating Sharina's 21st century Monroe Doctrine whereas no other nation has done so (Brinkman and Vineyard haven't attempted to annex territory or expand political control via puppet states in the Americas). Military Command withdrew, thus fulfilling Sharina's 21st century Monroe Doctrine.

Adding to that since it seems you forgot to ask these questions, 8. The Vineyardians had a fleet in the area. Where was the Vineyardians Fleet at the time of the attack? Adding to that, the Vineyardians are long time enemies of the Sharina Nation. Is it possible they would seek this time in our moment of weakness to attack us.

9. The Vineyardians have forces in Peru and moving into Bolivia (He made IC posts stating as such)-Could they be using this time to allow them to reestablish a influence in the Americans while were to busy fighting the RUN and will thus be unable to intervene in his plans? Or does the Vineyardians mean to use us as puppets to gain an American Empire and then as before when we are weaken from the war with RUN attack us to seize more land. Hmmm, I do not know my friend. These are good questions.

10. The RUN is seeking to establish dialogue with us, if so then why attack us?

11. [The most important question in my opinion]: If, the RUN did attack us in the Caymans. Why just the Caymans? What does the RUN have to gain by attacking the Caymans and indirectly us? The RUN must know that we outnumber them and will easily win (Your point of view). What does the RUN have to gain by attacking us? And while did they just attack in the Caymans? If, the RUN was set against us in war wouldn't they have attack at many places? [Your own post, stated your attacking in Europe and the Americans. So, if your going to war with me and attacking more then one place, if I was dead set to attacking you don't you think I would have launched a full scale invasion?] If, RUN has declared war on us while haven't their forces invaded Colombia or Latin America or attacked us in Canada or for that matter anyone else? [Using your Pearl Harbor example-the Japanese at the same time of declaring war on America and attacking in Hawaii were also invading within a matter of days Malaya, Borneo, Burma, Hong Kong and the Philippines.] And for goodness sakes, why didn't the RUN attack a more vital target to begin with?

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New Part-Sharina has only expanded as a direct response to the RUN's expansionism. The actions in the Caribbean was only taken in direct response to the RUN's acquisition of the Windward Islands. If the RUN did not take the Windward Islands, Sharina would not have felt it necessary to seize the rest of the Caribbean lest it fall in RUN hands.

IC'ly, Sharina is adopting the following stance.

"Not one step further in expansion in the Americas for anybody except Americans."

If either version of the two CSA's (Nuevo Rico's CSA or the new Crazy Monkey's CSA) or Braska expanded, Sharina wouldn't give a damn, considering the old / new CSA and Braska are American nations.

IC- my post only came after you invaded more nations in the Caribbean. So, it's the other way around. I was willing to discuss it peacefully and have the territories be divided evenly, however you decided the hell with it and invaded Haiti and the Dominican Republic. So, I only expanded as a direct response to prevent you from seizing more lands in the Caribbean. Also, what I seized was small compared to what you took/are taking.

As to American nations, whether you accept it or not. Both Venezuela and Argentina are American nations. In this case they are, South American Nations and are proud of that fact.

IC'ly, my people DO NOT know that. For all they know, the RUN will expand more and more. The peacekeeping troops in Chile, Uruguay, and Paraguay, and the expanding elsewhere in the world. The likelihood of Chile, Uruguay, and Paraguay to become puppet states of the RUN as a result of the peacekeeping troops. The acquisition of the Windward Islands. The annexation of Guyana. These things keep raising red flags IC'ly. Therefore my people BELIEVE that the RUN may decide to expand some more in the Americas based off the recent activities of the RUN. That goes against my people's wishes to keep all these nations and territories truly and completely independent from any European, African, or Asian influence and neo-colonialism. (ALL THIS IS IC)

For one, IC your people would know the peacekeeping forces are gone as I stated it IC. Do your people not watch the news or read the newspapers anymore? If, yes then that explains a lot. Two, your people would be aware or we hope at least some of them would be aware that the RUN is not merely one nation but, composed of several. IC-in my factbook I have listed at least 5 different governments and who's in power.

On the issue about expanding, you know maybe if Sharina IC tried to actually seek out a compromise with the RUN instead of spouting off that it's either Sharina's way or the highway-the gloves would have stayed on. IC, all you could see was your way and never saw it through the eyes of others. You even called Venezuela a puppet even before the Republic came into being. You still call it a puppet. Instead of condemning the Republic, how about you try working with it. Working with it IC of course. Who, knows you might find out the RUN is not interesting in expanded and did so merely to gain allies against the aggressive nation of Sharina. Sharina, no longer a threat-no need to gain allies aggressively. You never know, it might work. :D

Sharina

15-01-2007, 04:27

To address ALM's points:

1. Point taken.

However, the RUN is the only likely European nation to attack Sharina (in Sharina's IC eyes, that is). Recall the process of elimination I posted a couple days ago- that is how Sharina IC'ly arrived at the conclusion that the RUN is most likely responible. Sharina doesn't know Vineyard actually did the whole thing IC'ly, and doesn't suspect Vineyard because Sharina knows that Vineyard isn't that stupid IC'ly to risk such a move, lest Sharinan forces turn on Vineyardian assets. The factor is that the majority of Vineyard's naval fleet is now working with Sharina and for Vineyard to risk such a move and risk the sinking of almost ALL of his Navy... see what I'm coming from (IC'ly, that is)?

2. I could edit my RP post to upscale the casaulty figures to somewhere around 500 - 700 people. Thus, that particular issue can be resolved.

3. Think of it from this perpsective. A power that continues expanding in the Americas, and not stopping there. It expands not just in the Americas, but elsewhere in the world (but that "excuse" is mainly to add fuel to the fire for propganda purposes). Then that nation suddenly attacks the Cayman Islands whereas there's no other likely suspects (again, Vineyard isn't a suspect because who would consider such a suicidal course of action and risk losing ALL his / her assets- most entire Navy and a significant percentage of ground forces of entire nation's military power). This serves as valuable propganda tool, considering that terrorists (even in RL) don't generally have access to MILITARY grade aircraft, thus it is only logical to believe that a nation was responible.

It's quite doubtful that RL Al-Quaeda, Hamas, Hebollazah, etc. has access to fighter aircraft, as I haven't heard of any terrorists attack civilian centers with fighter aircraft in RL. Thus, it should be as extraordinarly hard for Earth V terrorist groups to do such a thing. Therefore, it's logical that such an attack would be a nation-sponsored one.

Sharina is lashing out aganist the only likely suspect to commit such an attack. The Sharina people don't want to wait a year or more for a full investigation- they want revenge and they want it now. This is like how the American people wanted revenge for 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. Even though the Luistiania (sp?) was sunk, American people wanted to do something about the war in Europe despite their politicans. I recall something about volunteers and such- even Theodore Roosevelt tried something like this, I believe.

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As for satellites, Vineyard stated there was a storm. It could concievably have been a hurricane, as the Caribbean does get hit by hurricanes quite a few times a year. Satellites can't see through hurricanes, can they? Or any dense cloud cover (blizzards, thunderstorms, etc.)

Besides, I do recall the RUN mobilizing its fleet prior to the Caymans Incident, to support its operations in the Windward Islands. There were no other naval assets present except for Sharina and Vineyardian vessels (as Great Romeo's fleet was turned away a while ago IC'ly, and there's no other significant foreign military fleets within that area)

The Cayman Islands only had a single RADAR operator, since Sharina generally figured that the enemy wouldn't attack the Cayman Islands. And my RADAR operator got lazy that night. These things do happen in real life.

Germany in WW-2 believed the Allies would invade to the north of Normandy, and fortified those areas. However, Germany made a mistake as we all know. In war or conflict, unforeseenable things *do* happen, unknown variables appear, and people do unpredictable things.

In Reply to SharinaNew Part-

IC- my post only came after you invaded more nations in the Caribbean. So, it's the other way around. I was willing to discuss it peacefully and have the territories be divided evenly, however you decided the hell with it and invaded Haiti and the Dominican Republic. So, I only expanded as a direct response to prevent you from seizing more lands in the Caribbean. Also, what I seized was small compared to what you took/are taking.

As to American nations, whether you accept it or not. Both Venezuela and Argentina are American nations. In this case they are, South American Nations and are proud of that fact.

For one, IC your people would know the peacekeeping forces are gone as I stated it IC. Do your people not watch the news or read the newspapers anymore? If, yes then that explains a lot. Two, your people would be aware or we hope at least some of them would be aware that the RUN is not merely one nation but, composed of several. IC-in my factbook I have listed at least 5 different governments and who's in power.

On the issue about expanding, you know maybe if Sharina IC tried to actually seek out a compromise with the RUN instead of spouting off that it's either Sharina's way or the highway-the gloves would have stayed on. IC, all you could see was your way and never saw it through the eyes of others. You even called Venezuela a puppet even before the Republic came into being. You still call it a puppet. Instead of condemning the Republic, how about you try working with it. Working with it IC of course. Who, knows you might find out the RUN is not interesting in expanded and did so merely to gain allies against the aggressive nation of Sharina. Sharina, no longer a threat-no need to gain allies aggressively. You never know, it might work. :D

The RUN moved on the Windward Islands first before Sharina even attacked Haiti and other Caribbean islands.

According to this post...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11920965&postcount=1

The RUN began to move onto the Windward Islands as of UE's post dated 08-11-2006 (or in the correct date format, Nov. 8th).

My post involving the invasion of Haiti (starting with naval bombardment, marines landing, and everything) occured in my post dated 14-11-2006 (Nov. 14th).

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11920965&postcount=1

Therefore, it could be said that Sharina moved *after* the RUN moved onto the Windward islands.

----------------------------------

All this aside, I do appreciate that people here are willing to debate the major stuff in RP's and make sure they're reasonable. How many NS RP's can boast of this kind of debate without "OMG! n00ks!" or "OMG! Your wrong! IGNORED!" or such crap.

I value all your opinions, perpsectives, and willingness to debate. I have great respect for ALM, UE, Vineyard, etc. OOC'ly even though our IC nations and characters may think differently.

Vineyard

15-01-2007, 06:11

Back!

And yes, I had a wonderful time in NYC, thanks for asking :D

At any rate, im suprised that you are all still arguing over this. Lets make a few things clear.

1). No way in Hell UE followed my carrier. He never stated so even in SIC. On top of that, no one in the strike force detected his submarine. Odd.

2). It was indeed stormy, and it was dark.

3). The Vineyardian Carrier was not within sight of the Cayman islands. The carrier in question was pointedly quite a few miles off.

4). Sharina does have a point. If the Empire did seek to somehow betray Sharina (In the eyes of Sharinian strategists), then why did it leave itself in such a blatently vulnerable position? The Sharinian fleet is about 15x the size of the Vineyardian Navy. If Sharina wanted to, he could break up the navies into different elements, with 1 Imperial Vessel to ever 10 Sharinian Vessels.

Also, there was an established understanding between the two nations, both very top secret. Only the men who participated in the strike, and top government officials on both sides know what transpired.

5) U.E. Relax. This has been debated throughly. If it brings you any comfort, Sharina will probably use that strike as a later preamble for war on the Empire. Hes done such in the past :)

And, yes. Sharina is right. Nations have almoast come to blows over the deaths of what would otherwise appear to be a handful of people in the eyes of someone looking at it from behind the desk. But in the eyes of a nation, whom to their government their saftey they trust, what would a government look like in the eyes of this same antion if it did not demonstrate its willingness to insure that the offending nation knows to never do so again. I.E. Serbs assasinating the Arch Duke. "Ohh, rightey-o! Its just 1 guy! No biggie!"

NO.

The Austrians were pissed, and rightly so. If they did not react viloently, it would demonstrate to the nation that their personal rights, saftey, and livlihood will not be protected; nevere the less showing the government's unwillingness to protect its own. If it had not gone to war, what message would that send?

With this in mind, if Sharina had not gone to war, what would that have said? That 400+ Citizens of the Technocracy were expendable? That these 400+ citizens didn't matter? That forign nations may violate the Technocracy as it pleases without the fear of reprimand? That these people, whom worked hard and paid their government taxes so they can sleep safely at night, would just shrug off the deaths of fellow citizens and the subsequent un-reactionary nation of the government?

I love debate.

United Earthlings

15-01-2007, 14:07

From its bases in Venezuela and Trinidad and Tobago, Republican forces were being readied to be sent into Guyana and towards the Windward Islands. Note the word readied- IE. they were being assembled.

I didn't send forces into the Windward Islands until this post-http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11957511&postcount=19. I posted that on November 16th, 2006 at 5:13 PM. That's when I officially sent my forces into the Windward Islands, a direct response towards you invading Haiti. I was willing to try to acquire the Islands peacefully, but no you wanted to have a conflict over them.

To the Emirate:
We regret to report that the beginning of military actions has commenced. Both The Sharina Technocracy and the Confederate States of America have started their military operations. To ignore their actions and wait would leave our position exposed. We have waited as long as we can, hopefully all sides will limit their territory ambitions as we have. My government will keep in touch and if Allah permits this division of territory won't turn into a major world war.

Sincerely, President Simón Bolívar of The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela

Announcement to the World
The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela has successful sent forces into Dominica and the Windward Islands. So far no losses have been suffered by either side. The rightful incorporation of Guyana into the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela has gone for the most part peacefully. Soon Combat operations will be coming to an end and Peace would have been restored to South America. Except for the claims we have stated, our nation will seek to acquire no more land by any means. We support the freedom of choice for all nations of South America. We can not speak for the other members of the Republic, but the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela has no desire for war in South America and will do whatever it takes to maintain the Peace and avoid war.

As such, we have noticed a conflict of interest between the French Empire and The Confederate States of America over the territory of French Guiana. Might we suggest the Emirate be allowed to moderate the discussion on said territory.

Statement Issued by President Simón Bolívar

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your post invading Haiti-http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11946138&postcount=94. That was your first one and I told you put it in the wrong thread. Here's your second more officially post, though the first one in my opinion counts just as much. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11950858&postcount=17

So, lets compare- I invaded the Windwards on November 16th, 2006 at 5:13 PM.

You invaded Haiti on November 14th, 2006 at 12:56 PM or November 15th,2006 at 1:05 PM. Whichever, post you want to count you either invaded a day in RL life or two days in RL before me. In Earth V time, that would come out to a few weeks or couple months.

Do you still deny you invaded land in the Caribbean before me?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Besides, I do recall the RUN mobilizing its fleet prior to the Caymans Incident, to support its operations in the Windward Islands.

Correct, note the word prior. I finished my operation in the Windward Islands before, you declared war on me. The Fleet went back to it's peacetime readiness of being prepared for a possible attack against Ven. Major Offensive Ships like Carriers, Supply Ships and Assault Ships returned to port and were still in Port when word of the attack on the Caymans came. They are still in port when you declared war on me. So, yes you may attack them if you wish because they are not out at sea. They had no reason to be, also it wasn't stormy over Ven and Guyana where the Fleet is based. Your SATS would easily see that. The only ships I have deployed that far out near Cuba and the Gulf of Mexico are my Nuclear Attack Submarines. The rest of the Fleet is within 50-200 miles of land that belongs to the Republic. The diesel subs would be further out to give even more advance warning, say 200-500 miles out depending on where they were based.

So, if my Carriers were in port. That leaves only my land based planes able to attack the Caymans and they just don't have the range for that. Added to that my planes would have to fly over or near Jamaica and we both know for sure Jamaica has good Radar coverage. It's near your fleet invading Haiti and your major bases in Cuba.

So, I leave you in that little pinch and you try to figure out how the Republic manage to slip past you and attack the Caymans with aircraft and infantry when your fleet and Air Defenses stand in my way. As I said my very first post, your proof of guilty for it being the Republic wasn't good enough. Even, a simple one week investigation would have reveled these facts. The Americans had warning that Japan was going to attack, they just didn't heed the warnings. Looks, like history is repeating it self again. All evidence points to the Vineyardians, your just ignoring it In Character because your nation is filled with such hate towards the Republic your people can't see past it's hate. That's what I'm getting anyway from what your saying about it's nation.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and it's just your government that hates me. After, all a majority of your citzens are Spanish Speaking just like mine. I doubt all of them would be supporting a full blown out war against me, when all it would see is the death of millions of people and the loss of many families on both sides. Our nations have more in common then you would like to admit.

Sharina

15-01-2007, 18:33

Do you still deny you invaded land in the Caribbean before me?[/B]

It could be argued that Sharinan intelligence picked up the RUN activity and buildup, and then that intel is passed onto major military command and national leadership. The leadership decides to pre-empt the RUN.

You may raise the point of the time it requires for mobilization- my forces were at full alert since the Dweladelfinian stand-off and the blockade of Great Romeo at Costa Rica. Thus, my forces in the Caribbean were at full alert and ready to seize islands at a moment's notice in a war of strategy aganist Dweladelfinia, and now adapted to the RUN in this case.

We can go in circles or back + forth with this particular venue of debate. Let it suffice to say that both nations accuse each other of being the first one responible for starting the conflict. RL nations do this ALL the time in wars- blaming the other side for starting the war, or accusations or such. I like that, as it's part of realism and Earth V is all about realism.

Correct, note the word prior. I finished my operation in the Windward Islands before, you declared war on me. The Fleet went back to it's peacetime readiness of being prepared for a possible attack against Ven. Major Offensive Ships like Carriers, Supply Ships and Assault Ships returned to port and were still in Port when word of the attack on the Caymans came. They are still in port when you declared war on me. So, yes you may attack them if you wish because they are not out at sea. They had no reason to be, also it wasn't stormy over Ven and Guyana where the Fleet is based. Your SATS would easily see that. The only ships I have deployed that far out near Cuba and the Gulf of Mexico are my Nuclear Attack Submarines. The rest of the Fleet is within 50-200 miles of land that belongs to the Republic. The diesel subs would be further out to give even more advance warning, say 200-500 miles out depending on where they were based.

I was under the impression you still had forces out and about owing to my actions in the Caribbean (Haiti, Dominica, Puerto Rico, etc.)

As I said my very first post, your proof of guilty for it being the Republic wasn't good enough. Even, a simple one week investigation would have reveled these facts. The Americans had warning that Japan was going to attack, they just didn't heed the warnings. Looks, like history is repeating it self again. All evidence points to the Vineyardians, your just ignoring it In Character because your nation is filled with such hate towards the Republic your people can't see past it's hate. That's what I'm getting anyway from what your saying about it's nation.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and it's just your government that hates me. After, all a majority of your citzens are Spanish Speaking just like mine. I doubt all of them would be supporting a full blown out war against me, when all it would see is the death of millions of people and the loss of many families on both sides. Our nations have more in common then you would like to admit.

My people are quite apprehensive and hostile towards the RUN for several reasons.

1. The RUN was an ally of Dweladelfina during the Sharina-Dweladelfina crisis over South America. This makes the RUN as the "bad guy's friend" in this case.

2. The RUN expanded from just Venzeula to include Windward Islands, Argentina, and puppet states in Peru, Chile, and Uruguay (in Sharina's IC eyes anyway).

3. The attack on the Cayman Islands fuels rage and anger within the Sharina populace, something akin to 9/11 and Pearl Harbor (emotion and "stirring of the hornet's nest") The only two probable suspects would be the RUN and Vineyard as nobody else is there. However, with feelings towards Vineyard on the rise, and the recongition that Vineyard would not be as stupid to risk having a huge part of his Navy and a significant part of his entire Armed Forces destroyed in an eye-blink, it leaves RUN as the only likely suspect for the anger to erupt onto.

4. The Sharina people don't want the RUN to gobble up any more land in the Americas, especially North America considering the CSA has collapsed. The Sharinan people also do not want ANY European and non-American nation to invade and annex land in the Americas as it will return the Americas to the 1700's colonialism era. Sharina doesn't consider the RUN as America despite possessing Venezeula, as prior to all the annexations and such, the RUN was comprised of Netherlands, Spain, and Venzeula. Thus the majority of the "original" RUN would be European (Netherlands and Spain) in Sharina's IC eyes. Recently annexed lands don't count as automatically being part of the continent's ethnic and cultural group (cases in example- Argentina, Guyana, and Windward Islands) unless the land has been part of the "controlling" nation for at least a decade or two (again, in Sharina's IC eyes).

A RL example of this would be the French people watching as Germany annexed Austria and Czechslovokia without France declaring war. They also watched as Germany laughed at the Versailles Treaty. Do you think the French people were feeling secure and happy while Hitler snapped up land left and right while the French government did nothing about it until the last minute (when Hitler attacked Poland)?

--------------------------------------

To respond to the Spanish cultural and ethnic issue, I have two points to raise.

1. Do recall that Sharina has been around for 50 RL timeline years (1960's - 2000's), or centuries in "NS game time" (whichever timescale applies here) and that would have given Sharina more than plenty of time for cultural mixing and diluting, thus instilling my own set of values across my territories, overwriting the old ways. This is happening throughout the world even now- "Americanization" is happening even in places like China, Japan, Indonesia, Europe, etc.

2. The Latin American nations desired independence from Spain in the 18th and 19th centuries, and wishes to remain that way. Why would they sympathize with their ex-colonial oppressors?

Alif Laam Miim

16-01-2007, 01:46

You guys are arguing on too many points about diplomacy.

Napoleon claimed to be aiming for peace when the British broke the Treaty of Amiens.

Hitler claimed to be in working protocol with the Munich Compromise when the Poles "invaded" Germany. He used the same words to explain the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact when the Soviets "launched air attacks" on border positions on the Eastern Front.

I sure that there are more examples, but the point is you guys are all claiming to be aiming for peace. That may be the IC case, but you'd be deluding yourselves if you weren't getting prepared for the war as well. So! Stop trying to argue that "I was aiming for peace" because you both were and both weren't. You'd probably save half of the arguments if you'd focus more on the technical aspects and realism than on intent or discourse.

In reply to some of the more pertinent arguments:

The winner gets to decide who started the war, how it started, and who gets to pay for the damages [as it is in all wars that end with a clear winner].

The attack still needs to clarify how 24 planes took off and landed in the middle of a storm.

I'm still waiting for the RUN's mobilized declarations, and Sharina's clarifications on how the aforementioned retaliatory attacks occurred.

Happy to see that people are happy to see this, but please don't tell me that you're also happy, because I soon won't be happy because I'll assume other things.

Vineyard

16-01-2007, 04:38

The attack still needs to clarify how 24 planes took off and landed in the middle of a storm.

Encoraching storm. As in the storm was about to occur. Yes, it cut it close, but thankfully no pilots were killed landing/taking off.

I guess I was aiming for that calm/humid feeling before a storm, followed by the wind rustling through the palm trees before the storm hit. Ya know. Clouds forming just above? Personally, its one of my favorite weather occurances. You know its about to rain, but you are enjoying the cool and turbulent nature of the weather about you. Then the storm hits, ruining everything. Sort of parallel to the political occurances between the 2 opposing sides. It clouded up, grew turbulent, then with a bit of thunder and a flash, the storm boiles over in torrents.

United Earthlings

16-01-2007, 09:09

You guys are arguing on too many points about diplomacy.

OK

So! Stop trying to argue that "I was aiming for peace" because you both were and both weren't. You'd probably save half of the arguments if you'd focus more on the technical aspects and realism than on intent or discourse.

OK, I start for now just focusing on the technical aspects and realism.

The winner gets to decide who started the war, how it started, and who gets to pay for the damages [as it is in all wars that end with a clear winner].

And if the war ends in a draw, then what? All of us are about evenly matched.

I'm still waiting for the RUN's mobilized declarations, and Sharina's clarifications on how the aforementioned retaliatory attacks occurred.

Well, it would be easier just to look at my military fact book. But, here are the links to my two posts detailing my military. If, you want the complete thing posted-it's going to take up a lot of room. That's why I haven't done it. So, without further ado here are the two links.

Army/Navy (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11539814&postcount=17) and Air Force (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11956922&postcount=48)

It's good except for a few minor things that need to be fixed or added. Example- I haven't gotten around to inputting all my Navy and Army Aircraft in service. Anyway, as I said it's minor things and I can always update it.

Happy to see that people are happy to see this, but please don't tell me that you're also happy, because I soon won't be happy because I'll assume other things.

:confused:, you lost me at the second happy. After, that it makes no sense- at least to me.

Sharina

16-01-2007, 14:12

Alif Laam Miim

16-01-2007, 16:57

I'm just asking for the specifics about the attacks themselves - what planes exactly went where? what kind of support did they get [especially for the trans-Atlantic flights]? what targets did they target? what time of day? what path? what were their landing destinations?

Once these are clarified [they might be in the original post, but still some elucidation might be welcome], I'll want the RUN's response to these attacks - and then we'll be ready to move on to bigger and better things.

Just an IC perspective, don't stop debating the IC points of the diplomacy. In fact, that might add to the intrigue during the course of the conflict. But my point about ooc debating "Why I did what I did before and just at the point of the war" is not why we are here - I think that the events surrounding the attack are clarified to as much as can be discerned. The only thing that I have a contention about is the reputed CNN broadcast and its viability, and it doesn't look to be very viable at this point. Storm or no storm, the submarine would have had difficulty trying to get pictures of the planes taking off. Furthermore, the only sort of information that the submarine could infer from the carrier launching aircraft was perhaps that an airstrike against RUN assets was impending - not the disputed attack on the Caymans, for which Sharina now ICly blames the RUN and has since retaliated on the false information [for better or worse - it's still false information].

BUT, something tells me that there is a possibility for the images to be captured still... so I'm still thinking about it.

And referring UE's confusion about my "happy" comment, I'm not too happy about talking about talking about the war. But seeing as we have just made a huge stride to the resolution of the FIRST of all strikes, we can at least have some reassurance that we'll get into the war very soon.

Thanks for your links [UE] - links are definitely better than nothing...

If the war ends in a draw, then you guys can continue to ICly debate how and why the war started, potentially starting another war to decide who started the previous one :rolleyes: ... like I said, debating why you did what you did is not for us to debate here - WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, and HOW you did what you did is all that really matters here [at least to me when it comes to deciding what really happened].

If Great Romeo et al want to get involved, now is the time to post declarations!!!

Vineyard

16-01-2007, 18:14

Err... were you talking to me? Trans-atlantic flights? Meh?

Harriers, launched from the Cavor Class Aircraft Carrier, into the headwind, due south of Cayman Islands by 7 (or so) miles, with armaments, pilots, and a working radio... Im confused. What are you asking? Everything about the crafts? The Cavor has about 1,450 individual beds, and daily fibre tablets are given to aircrew to ensure that constipation does not get in the way of their work... The Empire strives to keep the Air Force Regular... and each airman is issued in-flight sanitation packs with little mirrors, so they can do their job, and do it well... all while looking their best...

It just occured to me that you may not have been talking to me at all.

At any rate, I agree. We are here. Each nation has its reasons. Get over it, and move on.

Expect the opening stage of the Imperial Assault to begin soon.

Alif Laam Miim

16-01-2007, 23:48

ehh, thanks for the tidbits about the health of your soldiers' digestive tracts. The waters of the Caribbean are no longer considered safe if it gets to be regular...

But I was talking about Sharina's first post, detailing the massive airstrike retaliation against the RUN's apparent attack on the Caymans, which was in fact committed by the Imperial Vineyardian Fleet... *sigh*

If you want to make a post, please make it in the IC thread:

IC Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511856)

I've opened it limited IC declarations, since I believe that a lot of the hindrances are not IC-related any more. Of course, if some thing major comes about during these discussions, I will slow the combat and if need be stop it again.

If anyone does not agree with me about restarting the IC comments again [or any time after the action begins], tell me and I'll stop the action to address your concerns. A reminder that only those who have made declarations to join this conflict will be allowed.

United Earthlings

17-01-2007, 08:32

Once these are clarified [they might be in the original post, but still some elucidation might be welcome], I'll want the RUN's response to these attacks - and then we'll be ready to move on to bigger and better things.

OK, so in that case I have an IC response up to that effect ASAP.

Just an IC perspective, don't stop debating the IC points of the diplomacy. In fact, that might add to the intrigue during the course of the conflict. But my point about ooc debating "Why I did what I did before and just at the point of the war" is not why we are here - I think that the events surrounding the attack are clarified to as much as can be discerned. The only thing that I have a contention about is the reputed CNN broadcast and its viability, and it doesn't look to be very viable at this point. Storm or no storm, the submarine would have had difficulty trying to get pictures of the planes taking off. Furthermore, the only sort of information that the submarine could infer from the carrier launching aircraft was perhaps that an airstrike against RUN assets was impending - not the disputed attack on the Caymans, for which Sharina now ICly blames the RUN and has since retaliated on the false information [for better or worse - it's still false information].

BUT, something tells me that there is a possibility for the images to be captured still... so I'm still thinking about it.

For starters, I can always edit the post to better reflect the situation. Still, Subs are equipped with periscopes and these periscopes do have unique abilities. Such as-"Astute will have two non-hull-penetrating CM010 optronic masts developed by Thales Optronics. McTaggart Scott will supply the masts. The CM010 mast includes thermal imaging, low light TV and color CCD TV sensors." If the sub got close enough, it is entirely possible to snap a good picture or multiple pictures in this case or record a quick video and then withdraw the periscope back underwater. Supply the images to CNN and then boom. As to the planes taking off, while it would of been difficult it is still possible. However, as I said I can edit that part out. All that matters to me is that of the Carrier it self. Getting a image of the Carrier would not of been that hard.

And referring UE's confusion about my "happy" comment, I'm not too happy about talking about talking about the war. But seeing as we have just made a huge stride to the resolution of the FIRST of all strikes, we can at least have some reassurance that we'll get into the war very soon.

Thanks for your links [UE] - links are definitely better than nothing...

Oh, that makes more sense to me. Thanks, for explaining. Don't worry, will get there it will just take time. As, said before we started there were a lot of issues. Look, we've already gone 4 pages and still were discussion. So hang it their ALM.

Your welcome for the links.

If the war ends in a draw, then you guys can continue to ICly debate how and why the war started, potentially starting another war to decide who started the previous one :rolleyes: ... like I said, debating why you did what you did is not for us to debate here - WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, and HOW you did what you did is all that really matters here [at least to me when it comes to deciding what really happened].

OK, but don't forget WHO. You can't have a WHAT, WHERE, WHEN AND HOW without a WHO. Someone or something had to have done the deed. In, this case in Sharina's IC eyes it was me, though he did declare that it was me based on false information as you stated. Realistic, it would of taken more then a week to prove without a doubt who did the deed and how they did the deed. Investigations take time, looking at a real life example-when an Airliner (Commercial Jet) crashes it can take on average a good 3-4 months before the cause is known and all other possibilities are ruled out. Sometimes, even after a good investigation the true cause is never found or in this case who instead of what did the act.

Sharina

17-01-2007, 14:24

I will have more details about my IC actions later today, like type of aircraft, numbers, specific targets, etc. if this is what is needed.

United Earthlings

17-01-2007, 16:26

I will have more details about my IC actions later today, like type of aircraft, numbers, specific targets, etc. if this is what is needed.

Well, I need it if I'm going to react to it. The more specify the better.

So, type of aircraft, numbers, specific targets would be very helpful. Also, were the aircraft/soldiers departed from would be most helpful. This will let me know if I have advance warning. For example, if aircraft are taking off to strike targets in Europe- I'm generally going to have hours of advance warning to prepare and get ready for them. That way, I can give them a warm welcome if and when they arrive. :D

Sharina

18-01-2007, 02:20

One word is broadcast through the military bases and assets within Sharina.

"Engage."

Almost immediately, hundreds of warplanes, including B-2's, B-52's, B-70's, F-22's, F-18's, and F-16's began taking off from airbases, while the ones in flight are diverted towards their destinations. Aircraft carriers began launching their F-22 Raptors and bringing their anti-aircraft defenses to maximum readiness. Sharinan warships began bringing their defenses to maximum, while Sharinan submarines began probing the waters for Republic submarines.

The Sharinan fleets began converging upon the Windward Islands and the northern coastlines of Venezula. A taskforce of twenty Sharinan submarines began blockading the Straits of Gilbratar, having departed their Bahamas submarine pens a couple of weeks earlier. Hundreds of Sharinan cruise missile silos began activating throughout the Caribbean.

The cruise missiles roared out of their silos, on a straight course for all Republic naval assets, airfields both military and civilian, and various anti-aircraft defenses such as RADAR stations and SAM batteries.

The aircraft began their bombing runs on similiar targets throughout Venzeula, while a hundred B-2's set out on bombing missions aganist the Republic's military assets within Argentina. A similiar number of B-2's set on a course to attack naval yards and airbases within Republican holdings within Europe.

War has begun.

The targets are outlined in this part of my war declaration post. However, I shall elaborate further.

1. I am sending B-2's and B-70's aganist aircraft bases and naval ports within Spain and Netherlands. These aircraft are taking off from New England and Greenland, and at night-time to greatly reduce the likelihood of detection. It's much harder for satellites to spot B-70's at night-time (considering the B-70's can fly at Mach 3.1), and B-2's are essentially invisible to RADAR. Europe does not have anti-stealth technology to detect the B-2's yet as far as I'm aware of.

2. I can send in F-22's from Greenland to the Netherlands and Spain, as the F-22's have roughly 2,000+ mile range, which means if they're based in Greenland, they can reach Europe to provide extended fighter cover. I could even add extra fuel tanks for maybe a few hundred more miles of range.

3. Venzeula and Argentina are within range of my F-22's and my various bombers.

4. My top priority for my bombers is to destroy all RUN airbases, SAM / anti-air capability, and essentially achieve air superiority, along with destroying naval assets. My fighters will run cover, to shoot down any enemy fighters that may make it off the ground.

5. The RUN doesn't have fighters capable of flying past 60,000 feet altitude, whereas my B-70's can fly at nearly 80,000 feet altitude at Mach 3.1.

-------------------------------

My navy will be attacking the Windward Islands, destroy the RUN fleets in the Caribbean (including seek + destroy missions aganist RUN subs), patrol the Caribbean, and blockade the Venzeulan coastlines.

My Army will be crossing over into Venzeula obviously- with jungle + mountain trained divisions, heliocopter gunships, and such.

-------------------------------

Numbers:

Army: already stated in earlier posts (1 Army Group, plus reinforcements from Latin America and the Caribbean- 1 Army Group from each respectively).

Navy: 2 Fleet Groups and 2 Submarine Groups in Caribbean, 2 Fleet Groups and 2 Submarine Groups in the Pacific, and 1 Fleet Group in Atlantic, and 1 Submarine Group at the Straits of Gilabratar.

Air Force: 200 B-2's and 100 B-70's to Europe. 150 B-2's and 50 B-70's go to Venzeula. 150 B-2's and 50 B-70's go to Argentina. 400 F-22's go all over Venzeula. 300 F-22's go to Argentina (if within range). Support aircraft are to be used as needed (AWACS for instance).

My reserves and extra Army Groups, aircraft, etc. are being mobilized to war readiness (particularly the West Coast, New England, and Latin America regions).

Hope this helps and is what you asked for, UE and ALM.

Alif Laam Miim

18-01-2007, 03:54

Alif Laam Miim

18-01-2007, 04:03

~~~snippets~~~

The link to the post is in the quote, but just for reference, this is post #3 in the IC thread - my biggest question: what are you doing with this? Or is there more to this than meets the eye? realizing that Sharina's attack predates this attack...

Sharina

18-01-2007, 04:06

Your post immensely helps me personally, although I have one question.

You mentioned that you would have some F22 air support from Greenland into Europe, yet you don't state any numbers for them. Is this an error?

I am uncertain about this. It looks like the F-22's can reach Europe from Greenland, but I am not exactly 100% certain of this, and also whether the F-22's need some extra fuel tanks to achieve this or not.

Once I know a definite answer to this, then I can say for sure whether there'll be a F-22 escort or not for my B-70's into Europe.

United Earthlings

18-01-2007, 17:59

The targets are outlined in this part of my war declaration post. However, I shall elaborate further.

1. I am sending B-2's and B-70's against aircraft bases and naval ports within Spain and Netherlands. These aircraft are taking off from New England and Greenland, and at night-time to greatly reduce the likelihood of detection. It's much harder for satellites to spot B-70's at night-time (considering the B-70's can fly at Mach 3.1), and B-2's are essentially invisible to RADAR. Europe does not have anti-stealth technology to detect the B-2's yet as far as I'm aware of.

2. I can send in F-22's from Greenland to the Netherlands and Spain, as the F-22's have roughly 2,000+ mile range, which means if they're based in Greenland, they can reach Europe to provide extended fighter cover. I could even add extra fuel tanks for maybe a few hundred more miles of range.

3. Venezuela and Argentina are within range of my F-22's and my various bombers.

4. My top priority for my bombers is to destroy all RUN airbases, SAM / anti-air capability, and essentially achieve air superiority, along with destroying naval assets. My fighters will run cover, to shoot down any enemy fighters that may make it off the ground.

5. The RUN doesn't have fighters capable of flying past 60,000 feet altitude, whereas my B-70's can fly at nearly 80,000 feet altitude at Mach 3.1.

-------------------------------

My navy will be attacking the Windward Islands, destroy the RUN fleets in the Caribbean (including seek + destroy missions against RUN subs), patrol the Caribbean, and blockade the Venezuelan coastlines.

My Army will be crossing over into Venezuela obviously- with jungle + mountain trained divisions, helicopter gun ships, and such.

-------------------------------

Numbers:

Army: already stated in earlier posts (1 Army Group, plus reinforcements from Latin America and the Caribbean- 1 Army Group from each respectively).

Navy: 2 Fleet Groups and 2 Submarine Groups in Caribbean, 2 Fleet Groups and 2 Submarine Groups in the Pacific, and 1 Fleet Group in Atlantic, and 1 Submarine Group at the Straits of Gilabratar.

Air Force: 200 B-2's and 100 B-70's to Europe. 150 B-2's and 50 B-70's go to Venezuela. 150 B-2's and 50 B-70's go to Argentina. 400 F-22's go all over Venezuela. 300 F-22's go to Argentina (if within range). Support aircraft are to be used as needed (AWACS for instance).

My reserves and extra Army Groups, aircraft, etc. are being mobilized to war readiness (particularly the West Coast, New England, and Latin America regions).

Hope this helps and is what you asked for, UE and ALM.

It's a start. Here are some things I would like to clear up.

1. While, I see no problem with large numbers of Aircraft taking off from New England. The numbers you outlined depending on how many are actually taking off from Greenland presents a problem. So, for starters- how many of those 200 B'2s and 100 B-70's are taking off from Bases in New England and how many from bases in Greenland. Greenland is not exactly idea for basing Bombers and Fighter Aircraft. As, of today the US military nor Denmark (who by the way owns Greenland) have any combat aircraft based in Greenland. Nor, could I found any information on any Combat Aircraft ever be based in Greenland and that's after searching for nearly an hour. Greenland is cold, dark most of the time as it's above the Arctic Circle and very windy. These conditions would make it difficult if not impossible to maintain combat ready aircraft. If, you want to based said aircraft in Greenland you may just be aware that in all likelihood their going to be grounded or not working.

A minor point, since the B-70 was just a prototype and never enter full scale production-their's no information on it for what type of weapons and how many it can carry. If, you can find a source that's great other then that- your B-70s are going to be carry nothing, unless we can agree on what they can and would carry. While, I'm not denying you the right to use the B-70 it might just be easier if you completely forgot about it and replaced the B-70 with B1Bs or B-2s.

On the issue of anti-stealth technology, I have been doing some research on it and came across some interesting information on it. However, before I get to that point I have a few things to say. First, no aircraft is completely invincible nor completely invisible. Stealth aircraft merely reduce their visibility by various means. A lucky shot will still bring down a Stealth Aircraft as surely as it would as any other type of aircraft. You would be wised to keep that in mind. Second, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that major countries are working on anti-stealth technology and it just isn't public. Look how long the modern day Stealth Aircraft remained behind close doors and yet a lot about Stealth Aircraft is still classified (example-what are the RAM materials made out of). So, in the sake of fairness- I've decided to react to your stealth aircraft in the following way. At, first my ability to detect, track and engage them is going to be limited. As I gain experience dealing with your aircraft my ability to detect, track and shot down your aircraft will get better and better to the point that it might be very costly for you to attack me from the Air. However, you will also be gaining combat experience so it will be a race.

2. Besides, my point about Greenland-that 2,000 mile range for the F-22 is it's ferry range. It's combat range is going to be half of that with it being loaded down with weapons. I have a book source that states it's combat range is 800 miles. That's with two external fuel tanks and four external missiles and 8 internal missiles. So, while yes it could reach Greenland in it's ferry range, it's not going to make it back to it's bases in Greenland. Besides, that all those fuel tanks on the outside of the aircraft are going to make it much more visible to Radar. The F-22's combat configuration is "clean", that is, with all armament carried internally and with no external stores. This is an important factor in the F-22's stealth characteristics, and it improves the fighter's aerodynamics by dramatically reducing drag, which, in turn, improves the F-22's range. The F-22 has four under wing hardpoints, each capable of carrying 5,000 pounds. A single pylon design, which features forward and aft sway braces, an aft pivot, electrical connections, and fuel and air connections, is used. Either a 600-gallon fuel tank or two LAU-128/A missile launchers can be attached to the bottom of the pylon, depending on the mission. There are two basic external configurations for the F-22:
*Four 600 gallon fuel tanks, no external weapons: This configuration is used when the aircraft is being ferried and extra range is needed. A BRU-47/A rack is used on each pylon to hold the external tanks.
*Two 600 gallon fuel tanks, four missiles: This configuration is used after air dominance in a battle area has been secured, and extra loiter time and firepower is required for Combat Air Patrol (CAP). The external fuel tanks, held by a BRU-47/A rack are carried on the inboard stations, while a pylon fitted with two LAU-128/A rail launchers is fitted to each of the outboard stations.-in case there was any confusion on your part about what I was talking about with the F-22 and it's external points.

3. Depends, where are they taking off from. If, their say launching from Canada then now, your F-22s don't have the range. Your going to need to state where their coming from.

4. In, other words your main goal is suppression of enemy air defenses.

5. Correction, no one has fighters that go above 60,000 ft including you. Besides, what I stated early about the B-70 here's what it would do. Cruising speed: 2,000 mph. (Mach 3.0) at 72,000 ft.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to your numbers of aircraft, if you could specify where your aircraft are taking off from. That would be the most helpful. Exact, base would be the most useful, but a general region would also work as you I can look up your bases in that region which you so kindly posted.

Kopparbergs

18-01-2007, 18:22

A minor comment regarding Greenland:

Greenland is cold, dark most of the time as it's above the Arctic Circle and very windy.
Yes, it's pitch dark during the winter, but on the other hand it's daylight 24/7 during the summermonths. These two statements is true for areas to the north of the arctic circle.

At the poles themselves, the sun only rises once and sets once, each year. During the six months when the sun is above the horizon at the poles, the sun spends the days constantly moving around the horizon, reaching its highest circuit of the sky at the summer solstice.

Military Command

19-01-2007, 02:25

The targets are outlined in this part of my war declaration post. However, I shall elaborate further.

1. I am sending B-2's and B-70's aganist aircraft bases and naval ports within Spain and Netherlands. These aircraft are taking off from New England and Greenland, and at night-time to greatly reduce the likelihood of detection. It's much harder for satellites to spot B-70's at night-time (considering the B-70's can fly at Mach 3.1), and B-2's are essentially invisible to RADAR. Europe does not have anti-stealth technology to detect the B-2's yet as far as I'm aware of.

2. I can send in F-22's from Greenland to the Netherlands and Spain, as the F-22's have roughly 2,000+ mile range, which means if they're based in Greenland, they can reach Europe to provide extended fighter cover. I could even add extra fuel tanks for maybe a few hundred more miles of range.

3. Venzeula and Argentina are within range of my F-22's and my various bombers.

4. My top priority for my bombers is to destroy all RUN airbases, SAM / anti-air capability, and essentially achieve air superiority, along with destroying naval assets. My fighters will run cover, to shoot down any enemy fighters that may make it off the ground.

5. The RUN doesn't have fighters capable of flying past 60,000 feet altitude, whereas my B-70's can fly at nearly 80,000 feet altitude at Mach 3.1.

-------------------------------

My navy will be attacking the Windward Islands, destroy the RUN fleets in the Caribbean (including seek + destroy missions aganist RUN subs), patrol the Caribbean, and blockade the Venzeulan coastlines.

My Army will be crossing over into Venzeula obviously- with jungle + mountain trained divisions, heliocopter gunships, and such.

-------------------------------

Numbers:

Army: already stated in earlier posts (1 Army Group, plus reinforcements from Latin America and the Caribbean- 1 Army Group from each respectively).

Navy: 2 Fleet Groups and 2 Submarine Groups in Caribbean, 2 Fleet Groups and 2 Submarine Groups in the Pacific, and 1 Fleet Group in Atlantic, and 1 Submarine Group at the Straits of Gilabratar.

Air Force: 200 B-2's and 100 B-70's to Europe. 150 B-2's and 50 B-70's go to Venzeula. 150 B-2's and 50 B-70's go to Argentina. 400 F-22's go all over Venzeula. 300 F-22's go to Argentina (if within range). Support aircraft are to be used as needed (AWACS for instance).

My reserves and extra Army Groups, aircraft, etc. are being mobilized to war readiness (particularly the West Coast, New England, and Latin America regions).

Hope this helps and is what you asked for, UE and ALM.

I would like to know where your going to be flying your jets because if your going to be flying anywhere near England or anywhere my forces or in my airspace? If your going to be doing that you don't have my promission to do so and if you do fly in my airspace I will be forced to take action because your forces crossing my airspace or my waters will be an act of war.

Sharina

19-01-2007, 04:34

Okay. The F-22's won't be used out of Greenland to attack Europe, then.

Greenland has been quite a strategic location for me, because of the previous UFSR cold war. Greenland in this timeline has been developed more extensively than in real life, primarily for military purposes. For example, I needed bases in Greenland so that I could fly straight to Europe to bomb UFSR members in Europe, or fly over the North Pole to bomb targets in Russia (when Tenebricosis was playing Russia) as I didn't have New England when I acquired Greenland.

As for the B-70, for the sake of playability and plausibility, assume Sharina has developed the B-70 to carry the same types of munitions as the B-52 and B-1B / B-2's. Cruise missiles, cluster bombs, dumb-falling WW-2 type bombs, JDAMS, MOABS, precision guided weapons, etc.

In our real life timeline, the B-70 was cancelled and the 2 prototypes had accidents. However, in the Earth V timeline, Sharina built the B-70's, and made full production orders for them as an anti-UFSR weapon. Back then, the UFSR was larger than Sharina, and Sharina needed a large scale bombing platform to attack the UFSR with that can go at supersonic speeds. With approximately 250,000 - 300,000 pounds of weapons payload, thats a huge capability compared to sub-sonic speeds of B-52 and B-2's plus lower payloads from these two other primary bombers. With the highest payload of all 3 primary bombers, it should stand to reason that the B-70 can carry the same types of weapons as the B-52 and B-2. Having a supersonic bomber does have its benefits, especially outrunning any fighters (Today's modern fighters go up to roughly Mach 2 - 2.4 whereas the B-70 can go almost 1 full Mach factor faster than today's fighters at Mach 3 - 3.2 I believe) that survive the bombing of their airbases.

As for the season, I am not exactly sure when this war is happening. I know that hurricanes and major storms take place from like July to December or so in the Caribbean, and this whole war stuff began in Nov. / Dec. in real life. I'm not sure if IC'ly all this stuff is happening in the summer, fall, or beginning of winter.

As for anti-stealth, I'm just wary of people going "OMG! I detect stealth already!" like in mainstream NS. I'm not trying to say that stealth is invinicible or anything like that- I want it to be realistic as possible, meaning no instant know-how or 100% detection like people do in other NS RP's.

Roughly 75% of my aircraft going to Europe will be coming from New England, and the other 25% from Greenland (Considering the UFSR is no more. During the UFSR, I would have had 75% aircraft in Greenland and 25% from New England when I acquired New England). You could say that my Greenland based aircraft are for "Deep Penetration" to reach where the New England bombers can't reach (like the Balkans or such).

-------------------------

MC- I doubt my bombers will go directly over England, because they're only going to be attacking military targets in the Netherlands and Spain- particularly airfields and naval bases. I'm not bombing civilian centers or stuff like that though.

-------------------------

Hopefully this answers most if not all questions you guys have posted in the past day.

Alif Laam Miim

20-01-2007, 03:08

I would like to know where your going to be flying your jets because if your going to be flying anywhere near England or anywhere my forces or in my airspace? If your going to be doing that you don't have my promission to do so and if you do fly in my airspace I will be forced to take action because your forces crossing my airspace or my waters will be an act of war.

Ummm, considering that you've been declaring yourself an ally to both FOAM and EATO on numerous occasions, how is Sharina occupying your airspace a declaration of war? Do you mean a violation of your neutrality?

@ Sharina: Um, to get from Greenland to the Netherlands, you'd need to take a route through the North Sea to avoid England's airspace.

So F22's are not going through Europe nonetheless, and that brings us closer to the resolution. But as UE said, general location of the take-offs would be nice [more for calculations on how far and where they are going]. Waiting also for further contentions/possible reply from UE.

Sharina

20-01-2007, 14:16

Ummm, considering that you've been declaring yourself an ally to both FOAM and EATO on numerous occasions, how is Sharina occupying your airspace a declaration of war? Do you mean a violation of your neutrality?

@ Sharina: Um, to get from Greenland to the Netherlands, you'd need to take a route through the North Sea to avoid England's airspace.

So F22's are not going through Europe nonetheless, and that brings us closer to the resolution. But as UE said, general location of the take-offs would be nice [more for calculations on how far and where they are going]. Waiting also for further contentions/possible reply from UE.

I mentioned that I will not be sending F-22's into Europe now that I know for sure what's up with the F-22's range. The F-22's in Greenland will be used for patrol duty to prevent any enemy bombers from bombing my Greenland assets.

The aircraft are taking off from all my airbases I've outlined in my base list. Greenland only has 2 air bases, and New England has 4 or 5 (I forgot). As part of my "decentralized" military doctrine, roughly equal numbers of aircraft are taking off from each base. Assuming...

New England = 4 air bases ---> 40 B-2's and 20 B-70's per base
New England = 5 air bases ---> 35 B-2's and 15 B-70's per base

Greenland = 2 bases = (if N.E. has 4 bases) ---> 20 B-2's and 10 B-70's per base
Greenland = 2 bases = (if N.E. has 5 bases) ---> 12 B-2's and 12 B-70's per base

Total: 200 B-2's and 100 B-70's.

These are the rough numbers for the European attack.

Hope that helps. I will not be around until quite late tonight or tomorrow.

United Earthlings

20-01-2007, 16:47

So F22's are not going through Europe nonetheless, and that brings us closer to the resolution. But as UE said, general location of the take-offs would be nice [more for calculations on how far and where they are going]. Waiting also for further contentions/possible reply from UE.

I only have a few more contentions, at least for now until new ones pop up. Hopefully, they won't.

1. I agree with Sharina on what the B-70 can carry, now we need to agree on how much it can carry. The B-2's can carry 40,000 lbs to a range of 9,600 kilometers or around 6,000 miles. There is no information on the B-70 on what and how much it could can carry and how far it could go. I found a source that states it was designed to carry 27,000 lbs to a combat range of 4,288 miles (7,900 km). So, while his planes may make it there, they are not going to make it back on the fuel they carry. Something, Sharina needs to be aware of. So, Sharina and I and all others need to agree on what the B-70 could carry and how many weapons it can carry.

His closest Airbase in New England is in Worcester, Massachusetts. Here’s, a rough distance from Worcester to the Amsterdam in the Netherlands. It's a great site for comparing distances from different places. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distanceresult.html?p1=911&p2=16. Distance from Worcester to Amsterdam=5625 kilometers or 3495 miles. The distance is the theoretical air distance (great circle distance). Flying between the two locations can be longer or shorter, depending on airport location and actual route chosen. In, Sharina's case it's going to be greater if he has to fly around Great Britain.

The distance to Spain/Portugal is also quite great. My nearest major city for the Kingdom of Iberia is Lisbon in Portugal. The distance from Distance from Worcester to Lisbon is 5211 kilometers or 3238 miles. Again, that's the theoretical air distance.

The Distance from Greenland to Netherlands would be about the same as Worcester to Portugal. But, greater from Greenland to Spain/Portugal.

2. I'm fine with him basing aircraft in Greenland, just that he's aware that Greenland is not exactly an idea location for Aircraft. And that he should RP problems with the Aircraft, example it's too windy, snowed in (iced in) so on and so on. Greenland is an extreme environment, that should be reflected. He doesn't have to do it all the time, but more then likely in most cases he wouldn't be able to operate aircraft. That is realistic after all, given the conditions Greenland is in most of the time. 50-60 degrees F in the summer and -50 below F in the winters

Alif Laam Miim

21-01-2007, 06:24

It's a problem of which I am well aware [range of aircraft].

However, there is a solution that is only moderately useful and does not involve carriers. Fuel tanker aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-10_Extender) can help extend flights to near indefinite time frames [limited only by the vigilance of pilots on deck]. Personally, I'm not the best authority for specific details on military aircraft, and while I'm not making this suggestion for Sharina [as it was not mentioned in his post detailing the strikes], I'm reminding people that this sort of stuff is available and presents a viable solution for curtailing that sort of problem [that is, of course, only if you own the tech, which is apparently owned by USA, Singapore, France, and Turkey...]

Asian China

21-01-2007, 09:41

Fuel tanker aircraft
[that is, of course, only if you own the tech, which is apparently owned by USA, Singapore, France, and Turkey...]
There are way more nations capable of arerial refueling. I.e:
Germany, Canada, UK, Brazilia, Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Israel, Spain, Russia, India, Everyone who has bought a Il-78 Midas from Russia, China (H-6 tanker, a modified Il-78), and probably a lot more nations.

Here's a better link to wikipedia about aerial refueling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_refueling).

Sharina

21-01-2007, 16:41

I'm back and I'll try to address the concerns of ALM and UE.

1. I read somewhere that the B-70 has the following...

Empty weight: 210,000 lb (93,000 kg)
Loaded weight: 534,700 lb (242,500 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 550,000 lb (250,000 kg)

Thus, assuming half of the loaded weight is fuel, that leaves us with 170,000 lbs worth of bombs and weapons out of 340,000 "load pounds" (550,000 - 210,000 = 340,000). This could be modified for extra fuel if needed.

Compare this to the B-52's weight:

Empty weight: 185,000 lb (83,250 kg)
Loaded weight: 265,000 lb (120,000 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 488,000 lb (220,000 kg)

The B-52 has 303,000 "load pounds" available, and if half of that is used for fuel, that leaves us with roughly 151,500 "load pounds" for weapons. Either way, the B-70 has roughly 37,000 more pounds capacity than the B-52, and that means 37,000 more pounds of ordinance if they both have the same amount of fuel.

-----------------------------

In concerns for the range, I read about B-2's and B-52's going all the way from mainland US to Iraq on a non-stop flight there and back. That's like 6,000 miles to Iraq, and 6,000 miles back to the mainland US (bases in the Mid-West). Thus it should be possible for my aircraft to reach Spain and Netherlands from North America if the RL US aircraft can reach Iraq without using any allied airbases in Europe to do so as its roughly half the distance from the US to Spain and Netherlands than from the US to Iraq.

-----------------------------

I do have solutions to have my two airbases in Greenland operate efficiently. The airbases keep their runaways defrosted at all times (anti-ice salt, chemicals, plows, heaters, etc. and any enviroment damage from salt or chemicals is not a concern to Sharina around these 2 bases), the aircraft are housed within full hangars (and consquently kept warm), and Sharina does have the extra bucks to maintain these two bases. The Greenland and Antarctica bases are the most expensive bases maintainence-wise, but Sharina considers the expenses worth it.

Hope that clears stuff up again. If there's any more contention, I'm more than happy to discuss them.

Vineyard

21-01-2007, 19:12

UE (Casual fashion, mind yee. Just a mind blurb):

I must commend you on your move in Africa. I tried to think of grounds for any continuation of the war on my part, but I cannot think of anything but Argentina. Currently, a player applied for 3 nations, 1 under your command, and 2 under mine. I have approved of his ownership of Peru & Bolivia, but have yet to hear from him... at any rate, brilliant move on your part. I did hear you express concern for the allowance of new players into South America, and I agree.

Let me clarify that im not in the Americas to annex anything. If I were to try, I would literlally lose a battlegroup and my entire surface navy. To sharina of course. He doesnot like me in the Americas :)

Alif Laam Miim

21-01-2007, 23:12

There are way more nations capable of arerial refueling. I.e:
Germany, Canada, UK, Brazilia, Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Israel, Spain, Russia, India, Everyone who has bought a Il-78 Midas from Russia, China (H-6 tanker, a modified Il-78), and probably a lot more nations.

Here's a better link to wikipedia about aerial refueling.

Thank you for your insight - it is much appreciated.

Still, the point is that this sort of option is clearly and openly viable...

United Earthlings

22-01-2007, 02:59

I'm back and I'll try to address the concerns of ALM and UE.

1. I read somewhere that the B-70 has the following...

Empty weight: 210,000 lb (93,000 kg)
Loaded weight: 534,700 lb (242,500 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 550,000 lb (250,000 kg)

Thus, assuming half of the loaded weight is fuel, that leaves us with 170,000 lbs worth of bombs and weapons out of 340,000 "load pounds" (550,000 - 210,000 = 340,000). This could be modified for extra fuel if needed.

Compare this to the B-52's weight:

Empty weight: 185,000 lb (83,250 kg)
Loaded weight: 265,000 lb (120,000 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 488,000 lb (220,000 kg)

The B-52 has 303,000 "load pounds" available, and if half of that is used for fuel, that leaves us with roughly 151,500 "load pounds" for weapons. Either way, the B-70 has roughly 37,000 more pounds capacity than the B-52, and that means 37,000 more pounds of ordinance if they both have the same amount of fuel.

-----------------------------

In concerns for the range, I read about B-2's and B-52's going all the way from mainland US to Iraq on a non-stop flight there and back. That's like 6,000 miles to Iraq, and 6,000 miles back to the mainland US (bases in the Mid-West). Thus it should be possible for my aircraft to reach Spain and Netherlands from North America if the RL US aircraft can reach Iraq without using any allied airbases in Europe to do so as its roughly half the distance from the US to Spain and Netherlands than from the US to Iraq.

1. Actually, most of the Aircraft weight is going to be fuel (around 3/4ths)-that's a given for all aircraft. So, your calculations are off to begin with. The B52 carries around 70,000 lbs of weapons of various types. It carries 181,000 liters of fuel or around 47,815 gallons (liquid). Each gallon weighs 6.7 lbs. That gives you a weight of 320,360.5 lbs of fuel to carry. Minus the fuel in lbs from the maximum takeoff weight of 488,000 lbs from gives you 167,639.5 lbs left over and minus 70,000 lbs from the weapons and you get 97,639.5 lbs. Now, add the weight of the equipment and people on board. Also add that you probably want to stay 20,000 lbs or more below the maximum take off weight for this reason-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_Take-Off_Weight.

2. Non-step with one aerial refueling. So, unless you can found a way to aerial refuel them their not going to make it back on the fuel it can carry. That goes for both the B-70 and B-2. Those tankers the US Air Forces uses are based in Europe, among other places. You don't have those bases, remember. I do have some.

I hope that clears up some things.

Samtonia

22-01-2007, 03:26

Here are the specs for the planes. All aeroplane specs from globalsecurity.org, meaning they are correct.

B-52
Primary Function: Heavy bomber
Contractor: Boeing Military Airplane Co.
Power Plant: Eight Pratt & Whitney engines TF33-P-3/103 turbofan
Thrust: Each engine up to 17,000 pounds (7,650 kilograms)
Length: 159 feet, 4 inches (48.5 meters)
Height: 40 feet, 8 inches (12.4 meters)
Wingspan: 185 feet (56.4 meters)
Speed: 650 miles per hour (Mach 0.86)
Ceiling: 50,000 feet (15,151.5 meters)
Weight: Approximately 185,000 pounds empty (83,250 kilograms)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 488,000 pounds (219,600 kilograms)
Range: Unrefueled 8,800 miles (7,652 nautical miles)
Armament: Approximately 70,000 pounds (31,500 kilograms) mixed ordnance -- bombs, mines and missiles.

B-70
Span: 105 ft.
Length: 185 ft. 10 in. without boom; 192 ft. 2 in. with boom
Height: 30 ft. 9 in.
Weight: 534,700 lbs. loaded
Engines: Six General Electric YJ-93s of 30,000 lbs. thrust each with afterburner.
Maximum speed: 2,056 mph. (Mach 3.1) at 73,000 ft.
Cruising speed: 2,000 mph. (Mach 3.0) at 72,000 ft.
Range: 4,288 miles
Service Ceiling: 77,350 ft.

Note that no payload is given, but as its loaded weight is actually greater than the B-52's max take-off weight the payload can be assumed to be roughly the same. Plus a lot more fuel. Thus the fast speed but lower range.

B-2
Primary function: Multi-role heavy bomber.
Prime Contractor: Northrop Grumman Corp.
Contractor Team: Boeing Military Airplanes Co.,
General Electric Aircraft Engine Group
Hughes Training Inc., Link Division
Power Plant/Manufacturer: Four General Electric F-118-GE-100 engines
Thrust: 17,300 pounds each engine (7,847 kilograms)
Length: 69 feet (20.9 meters)
Height: 17 feet (5.1 meters)
Wingspan: 172 feet (52.12 meters)
Speed, cruise: High subsonic
Speed, minimum approach: 140 mph
Ceiling: 50,000 feet (15,000 meters)
Weight, Takeoff, (Typical): 336,500-350,000 pounds (152,600-159,000 kilograms)
Weight, Empty: 125,000-160,000 lb
Range: 6000 nautical miles (9600 kilometers)unrefueled range for a hi-lo-hi mission with 16 B61 nuclear free-fall bombs10,000 miles with one aerial refueling
Payload: 40,000 pounds (18,000 kilograms)

B-1B
Primary Function: Long-range, multi-role, heavy bomber
Builder: Rockwell International, North American Aircraft
Operations Air Frame and Integration: Offensive avionics, Boeing Military Airplane; defensive avionics, AIL Division
Power Plant: Four General Electric F-101-GE-102 turbofan engine with afterburner
Thrust: 30,000-plus pounds (13,500-plus kilograms) with afterburner, per engine
Length: 146 feet (44.5 meters)
Wingspan: 137 feet (41.8 meters) extended forward,
79 feet (24.1 meters) swept aft
Height: 34 feet (10.4 meters)
Weight: Empty, approximately 190,000 pounds (86,183 kilograms)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 477,000 pounds (214,650 kilograms)
Speed: 600+ mph (Mach .92) @ 500 feet
825 mph (Mach 1.25) @ 50,000 feet
Rotate and Takeoff Speeds: 210 Gross - 119 Rotate kts / 134 kts Takeoff
390 Gross - 168 kts Rotate / 183 kts Takeoff
Landing Speeds: 210 Gross - 145 kts
380 Gross - 195 kts
Range: 7,455 miles, unrefueled
3,444 miles with normal weapons load
Ceiling: 60,000 feet (18,000 meters)
Crew: Four (aircraft commander, pilot, offensive systems officer and defensive systems officer)

(And since they for some reason didn't have payload, airforcetechnology.com provides the figueres for that)
Payload: The B-1B does not currently carry nuclear weapons. The aircraft has three internal weapon bays and six external hardpoints under the fuselage. The maximum internal weapons payload is 75,000lb and maximum external weapons payload is 59,000lb.

Distance from NE USA to deepest point in Spain is about 3,500 to 3,900 miles depending on where airfields are. It's only about 3,000 miles from Greenland to wherever you want in Spain. AS for the Netherlands, 3,200 to 3,500 miles from NE US and 1,900 to 2,100 miles from Greenland.

So, Sharina could hit anywhere he wanted to in your European nations from anywhere in the NE US, Canada, or Greenland with the B-1B without an in-air refueling, almost anywhere in Spain from the NE US with the B-2 (and everywhere in Spain and the Netherlands with the B-2 from Greenland), and anywhere in the Netherlands from Greenland with the B-52 (if he wanted to use that for some odd reason). so, in all acutality, Sharina can hit whatever he wants without any refueling at all- he just needs to use different bombers in differnt places and from different bases is all.

(Distances calculated using Google Maps Distance Calculator).

You're all lucky I just had time on my hands and a desire to help. :)

Sharina

22-01-2007, 06:19

I could easily have my aircraft be refueled in the middle of the Atlantic- out of range of any enemy fighters, then refuel again in mid-Atlantic when the bombers return from their missions. Or I could have my aircraft be refueled only AFTER returning from Europe (to increase the element of surprise as opposed to bombers being refueled mid-Atlantic BEFORE bombing targets in Europe)

Problem solved.

United Earthlings

22-01-2007, 06:37

Distance from NE USA to deepest point in Spain is about 3,500 to 3,900 miles depending on where airfields are. It's only about 3,000 miles from Greenland to wherever you want in Spain. AS for the Netherlands, 3,200 to 3,500 miles from NE US and 1,900 to 2,100 miles from Greenland.

So, Sharina could hit anywhere he wanted to in your European nations from anywhere in the NE US, Canada, or Greenland with the B-1B without an in-air refueling, almost anywhere in Spain from the NE US with the B-2 (and everywhere in Spain and the Netherlands with the B-2 from Greenland), and anywhere in the Netherlands from Greenland with the B-52 (if he wanted to use that for some odd reason). so, in all acutality, Sharina can hit whatever he wants without any refueling at all- he just needs to use different bombers in differnt places and from different bases is all.

(Distances calculated using Google Maps Distance Calculator).

You're all lucky I just had time on my hands and a desire to help. :)

There's only one problem, those numbers are wrong for the distances. For, starters it calculates by the most direct route. That's fine on a map, but as everyone knows the Earth is not flat, but a Spheroid. So, the distances from one place to another are going to be greater on average by a few hundred miles at least.

All distances I could find, including Goggle Maps Distance Calculator use the most direct route or as it is known ("As the crow flies" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_the_crow_flies). "As the crow flies" is a colloquial term used to describe the most direct route between two points on the Earth.

Just, something to keep in mind.

I could easily have my aircraft be refueled in the middle of the Atlantic- out of range of any enemy fighters, then refuel again in mid-Atlantic when the bombers return from their missions. Or I could have my aircraft be refueled only AFTER returning from Europe (to increase the element of surprise as opposed to bombers being refueled mid-Atlantic BEFORE bombing targets in Europe)

Problem solved.

Good, your think how your going to keep them in the Air. That's what I wanted. One way or another, most of your aircraft are going to need to be refueled in flight.

Alif Laam Miim

23-01-2007, 05:50

Sharina

23-01-2007, 10:29

Problem solved - so are there any other contentions? If not, then we can get out to posting IC replies [to the Sharina raid first, and then to whatever Vineyard is doing...] and moving on with this war.

As a foreword to all future attacks [beyond the ones present], I would love to have details to be as precise as possible. I understand that people have lives, and studying the arts of war in NS is not exactly a 100k job, but try to make an effort to being concise, precise, and ultimately complete. If we don't know what you're doing, this will take a long time to resolve.

Thats good news.

I'll try to be as precise as I can. Besides, I do not want to drag out debates and contentions for another month before any war RP'ing gets underway, ya know? The sooner we finish this war, the sooner I can start and undertake other RP's as I've put ALL my RP'ing on hold until this war is underway / finished (RP's like the Michigan + Ohio issue, the Dominician Republic conquest, and several domestic projects I'd love to do) because I believe in continuity and I don't like jumping all over the place where RP's are concerned like several people have been doing the past couple of months.

Great Romeo

24-01-2007, 04:10

ORBAT:

At Vineyardian bases in Italy (Vineyard is responsible for basing arrangement):
Secret IC:

70,000 infantrymen, 1,000 T-90S main battle tanks, 2,500 BTR-90 APCs, 1,300 BM-30 Smerch MRLSs, and 100 Mi-28N/MMW Havo attack helicopters
[...]
600 Su-47 Berkut fighters and 900 SU-25KM “Scorpion” attack aircraft, 100 Tu-160 NK-74 bombers, 3 Beriev A-50U Mainstay AWACS aircraft, 30 Ilyushin Il-78 Midas tankers, and 10 Tu-160PP electronic warfare aircraft will be based within range of that equipment at all times.

...plus the blockade force:
Military movement IC:

Red Navy Deployment Orders

BLOCKADE FORCE (Admiral Corneliu Calotescu)

6 Kirov class battlecruisers
15 Project 1155.1 Fregat II Class Large ASW Ships
25 Project 956EM Sovremenny class destroyers
15 Horizon Common New Generation Frigates (CNGF) with long range RADAR
10 Akula-II attack submarines
10 Lada class attack submarines

All forces will blockade their locations after arrival in position. Destroyers, battlecruisers, and 10 submarines (5 Akula-II, 5 Lada) from the Baltic Fleet will patrol the Azores to the coast. The remaining 10 submarines will launch from Romania and patrol the Bosporus.

United Earthlings

24-01-2007, 22:26

Problem solved - so are there any other contentions?

Yep, I got some more. So bear with me.

1. Since, I've only asked Sharina this 5 times time I'm going to put it in bold and in large print. You won't miss it this time. 10,000 other aircraft of varying types (refuellers like KC-135, cargo like C-5 Galaxy, older fighters like F-4 Phantom or F-14 Tomcats, AWACS like Hawkeye, transport helicopters like Hueys, etc.) and 500 ships of varying classes (resupply, troop transports, refuellers, salvage, etc.)

Again, 5th time I've asked this-HOW MUCH OF EACH TYPE?! All other players have listed their exact numbers, so Sharina unless you want it called a God-Mod because I'm not having you pull random numbers out of nowhere. Example-How many troops transports do you have and what is their type? There are 4 different types the US Navy uses at this present day and that is just one example. Tarawa Class Assault ships, Wasp Class Assault Ships, Whidbey Island/Harpers Ferry Class Landing ships and the new San Antonio Class Landing Platform Docks[LPDs].

Here's two sites to get you started on that task.

1. The Official United States Air Force Factsheet. It lists all aircraft in service and the number in service. Look under Inventory. (http://www.af.mil/library/factsheets/)

2. Federation of American Scientists=This comprehensive guide to major classes of US Navy ships includes currently operational classes, new classes under development, and classes that have been retired since the end of the Cold War. (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/index.html)

Those two sites alone should provide you with enough information to make a list of how much of each class you got. If, you need more sites- I got more. Plus, numerous books.

2. Sweden and Bangladesh? I have already made my points and I've already heard everyone else points. I want a clear yes or no here, that's it. I'm not going to debate it and I will agree to what the majority agrees to. Are they allowed to or going to be involved in the war? If, yes then that means I have to come up with a military declaration for them. Using fluid time, I have had many years to prepare those two countries. Over 15 now for Bangladesh and over 5 for Sweden. If, the answer is no-then that's fine too. Just be aware I will be continuing my role-play's for them and the results will take effect after the war.

3. The use of nuclear weapons in general, are they allowed or do you all want to agree that no one will use them even though we all have the capability?

4. The Eurobomber (A derivative of the B1B Lancer) will be coming online soon and most likely will make it's first operational use during the war. Just, so your all aware. I also, got a few other hidden assets I will revival in due time or shortly.

5. At Vineyardian bases in Italy (Vineyard is responsible for basing arrangement): Ok, what bases and where? Is that enter force in Northern Italy or spread throughout all of Italy? Where the force is located and how much personnel is at each base (position) would be great.

6. Great Romeo's blockade force, ok he's having his enter Baltic Fleet set sail less then hundred miles from some of my nations and closer still to TGSR. I would love to hear's Sixth's reaction to that large of a fleet passing so close to his shores. If, their ever was a clear sign of war it was the Russia Baltic Fleet on the move. So, unless his fleet has been sitting in the Atlantic for years- I should have a chance to react to it when it first enters the North Sea. Also, which coast is he patrolling from- Azores to the United States Coast?, Azores to the Portugese Coast?, Azores to the Venezuelan Coast? Being more specify here would be helpful for me.

That's a total of 81 ships going to pass through the Danish straits. [Sarcasm]Yeah, I'm totally going to ignore that warning.[Sarcasm] I don't think Great Romeo thought that action through. I can sail right up to Russia and proceed to pound it into nothing from the Sea as his enter Baltic Fleet is enjoying the sun in the South Atlantic. :cool: I manage to immobilize his enter Baltic fleet without firing a shot and win a great victory. Those crazy Russians! :D

You got to love realism. :D

Sharina

25-01-2007, 01:01

Yep, I got some more. So bear with me.

1. Since, I've only asked Sharina this 5 times time I'm going to put it in bold and in large print. You won't miss it this time. and

Again, 5th time I've asked this-HOW MUCH OF EACH TYPE?! All other players have listed their exact numbers, so Sharina unless you want it called a God-Mod because I'm not having you pull random numbers out of nowhere. Example-How many troops transports do you have and what is their type? There are 4 different types the US Navy uses at this present day and that is just one example. Tarawa Class Assault ships, Wasp Class Assault Ships, Whidbey Island/Harpers Ferry Class Landing ships and the new San Antonio Class Landing Platform Docks[LPDs].

Here's two sites to get you started on that task.

1. The Official United States Air Force Factsheet. It lists all aircraft in service and the number in service. Look under Inventory. (http://www.af.mil/library/factsheets/)

2. Federation of American Scientists=This comprehensive guide to major classes of US Navy ships includes currently operational classes, new classes under development, and classes that have been retired since the end of the Cold War. (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/index.html)

Those two sites alone should provide you with enough information to make a list of how much of each class you got. If, you need more sites- I got more. Plus, numerous books.

3. The use of nuclear weapons in general, are they allowed or do you all want to agree that no one will use them even though we all have the capability?

I'll get on it.

As for nuclear weapons, there is an unspoken rule in Earth V in which players don't use nukes in player-vs-player wars for the same reasons nuclear wars completely fail in mainstream NS RP'ing. If nuclear weapons are used in terrorism or if are RP'ed well such as Samtonia's RP with nukes, it's accepted.

Besides, I do have enough nuclear weapons to "end all life on Earth", but I am quite loath to use nukes for that very reason. I mean, if someone nukes me, I will have to nuke them back, then nuclear weapons go off back and forth, ending RP's and such as there'll be nothing left to RP. No cities, no people, no military, no nation, nothing. Therefore all our nation-building RP's and such would have all been wasted. Then we do a retcon of the nuclear war to preserve our nations and resume RP'ing, thus rendering nuclear weapons completely pointless and useless.

Hopefully that explains my reasoning behind why I do not want nukes in Earth V for player-vs-player wars and conflicts. It is not a matter of tactics or strategy, but rather, what nukes inevitably lead to, which is a dead world (and the inevitable retcons to return to our RP'ing prior to the nukes).

Alif Laam Miim

25-01-2007, 01:21

Some replies to statements:

* Regarding Sweden and Bangladesh - they are not in this RP, and such they will be considered unassimilated. Sharina and his allies can intervene if they so choose, but it won't affect much, except to screw over the efforts currently being undertaken there.

* Nukes are fair game, but unless you want to commence WWIII, don't do it.

* I can't say that GR's fleet wouldn't be unnoticed, but you know, given the circumstances, I'd have to hold that it's very hard for GR to effectively supply and maintain that fleet without passing through contested waters.

* As far as troops in Italy, Great Romeo mentioned that Vineyard is responsible for their placement, and Vineyard hasn't posted, so hopefully he'll clear this out.

* RUN, is there anything else that you'd need in order to get this going on? Because I feel like this has been going on forever, and that no one has really thought it through very well. I'm nearing the point where I feel I'll stick my hands through iron gauntlets to move this RP along...

And I'm assuming that Vineyard is doing some IC prep in the IC thread...?

United Earthlings

25-01-2007, 01:36

I'll get on it.

Thank You

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I probably have my IC post up tomorrow with me either taking credit or deny any involvement. That's my very next post I plan to put up minus the thread I plan to create.

After that, Sharina can post his declaration of war (updated version) and then I post my response to his attack.

As for Sweden and Bangladesh, just so everyone’s aware that I'm roleplaying a very small to non-existent involvement of the Republic. Hence the SIC tags at the beginning of each post. So, if they do involve themselves in those two countries they then will be consider assimilated and hence involved in this RP. That's why I asked ahead of time. Until, then if such a thing occurs. I will not be using any thing Swedish or Bangladesh for the war. Equipment, people, personnel so on.

As, for the nukes I understand. No, Nukes.

Sharina

27-01-2007, 00:21

United Earthlings

27-01-2007, 07:01

Here's a rough sketch of my "support stuff".

Navy:

300 supply ships (carries fuel, ammunition, foodstuffs, spare parts, etc.)
100 Amphibious ships (WASP, Tarawa, LHX, etc.)
100 Auxiliary ships (tenders, minelayers, mine sweepers, repair vessels, etc.)

Airforce:

1,000 refueler aircraft (like the KC's)
1,500 transport aircraft (like the Galaxy and Hercules)
3,000 heliocopter transports (like Huey's)
500 AWACS aircraft
2,000 old fighter aircraft (F-14's, F-4 Phantoms, etc.) put in reserves
2,000 unmanned aircraft (like Predator UCAV's)

They are rough numbers and fluctate at times depending on current state of affairs in the world. If Sharina is at peace for a while, some of these naval vessels and aircraft are put in reserves. If Sharina is preparing for war, is currently at war, or had just been in a war, the numbers may be higher due to war surplus and building of lots of war stuff during wartime.

-----------------------------

I do have one point of contention that has still been nagging at the rear of my mind. It has to do with the "Eurobomber". I still can't get the fact that the RUN built a whole new class of bomber within a relatively short period of time.

It took the US decades to build up advanced bombers and aircraft, and the US has the world's most advanced aerospace industry. It is constantly at the cutting edge of new aerospace technology. Now, building a whole new class of bomber within just 3 to 5 years, then expect full production in another 3 - 5 years by a nation that is not exactly known for being at the forefront of aerospace development (Spain, Netherlands, Venzeula, Argentina, etc. aren't exactly aerospace powerhouses like the US, Russia, or WW-2 Germany)

Again, this issue keeps coming back from the back of my mind (no pun intended). It would be like RL Egypt designing and building the F-22 Raptor within 10 years, then full production of them within another 5 years.

One more issue:

Fluid time does not apply to this war, as it has essentially been frozen since the war declaration. This means RP's and development of stuff between the day war was declared (last Dec. in RL) and now will not be counted or factored in for the war. Those new developments will "appear" and take place AFTER the war.

It simply does not make sense for the war declaration to occur, then my military stuff heads over to do their thing only to find out that years have passed by between their leaving their airbases or navy bases and arrival at their destinations. This isn't the Bermuda Triangle or those sci-fi time travel movies, guys.

I have frozen ALL my RP's since I declared war, because nothing new is happening after the point war was declared. I'm not researching or developing new things, conquering new lands, building new stuff, etc. Likewise, I am following linearity (the set order of things or in other words, a timeline), and to jump all over time to do RP's 5 years before the war, 10 years after the war, or such while the war is supposed to be taking place doesn't make any sense at all. It only further confuses everybody.

It really bugs me when people assume years have passed by game-wise since I initially declared war, and build stuff or expand stuff in the meanwhile. It doesn't make any rational sense at all- it'd be like the USA declaring war on Iraq in 2003 in RL, then somehow it becomes 2013 or 2023 elsewhere in the world before the first US troops set foot in Iraq and it's still 2003 in the USA. See what I mean?

Well, I wanted specifies but, that's a start. I'm willing to accept that but, I was looking for more like this. Example-8 Kilauea Class Ammunition ships, 7 Mars Class Combat Stores Ship, 3 Sirius Class Combat Stores Ships, 5 Cimarron Class Fleet oilers, 18 Henry J. Kaiser Fleet oilers and so on and so on. Numbers are the real life numbers the United States Navy has/had in service. Remember, the devil is in the detail. The more specify, the better. Gives a better idea of who has what and makes it easier for the role-play.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next, allow me to relieve that nagging in the back of your head.

First, you have to understand that I DID NOT, get that DID NOT- design a new bomber. I merely made a derivative of the B1B Lancer. Remember, Earth V is about Realism and we can only use Real Life stuff. The B1B is a real life aircraft.

Now, since I merely had to make in essence a copy of the B1B but, built to European standards the time it would’ve taken is reduced. I didn't have to go through years of R&D, since I picked a design that was already in service and had been for many decades. I know you feel special over there as the single ruler of North America, but the United States is not the only country with an aerospace industry or in your own words an "advanced aerospace industry".

You are mistaken on how long it took me. It took me over 10 years and it still has yet to enter production. I plan to get a few operational in a few years or in other words a few weeks (real life time). Depending on how long the war lasts the Eurobomber may or may not become operational. If, we can finish the war up in less then a week- real life time. Then, yes your correct the Eurobomber will become operational AFTER THE WAR. If, not then you more then likely should expect it to make it's operational appearance during the war.

While, those Real Life nations are not known for being in the forefront of aerospace development- that has sort of changed since I took over them. In real life, the Netherlands/Belgium don't have factories producing the Eurofighter. In Earth V, they do. You can thank Sixth for selling me the production rights when I was first starting out. So, my nations have a wide range of experience producing advance aircraft. From fighters to Commercial Jets.

And for the record, I enlisted the help of my ally Military Command to help me build the Eurobomber (or as you call it the B1B). France does in your words have a record of being at the forefront of aerospace development.

No, it would be like the RL European Union building the F-22 Raptor within 10 years, then full production of them within another 5 years. While, would they need to design it when the United States Government already did it for them?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your last issue, on that we both agree. Fluid time does not apply to this war.

It, being essentially frozen is where we start to disagree. Because, RP's and development of stuff has been happening. As, you or someone else said before- doing that creates two sets of statistics to try to figure out. Since, you declared war or sort of did-as there were quite a few issues to resolve first, which should have been resolved before you decided to declare war.

I would like to avoid that headache and from looking at Earth V I just accepted this- the world has moved on and it is in present time. So, when you attack me it will be in present time, whenever you do attack or declare war officially this time.

So, unless you want to really screw up Earth V-which your welcome to do. Those new developments have already been counted or factored in.

My advice, just forget the freeze and let's move on. Attack, don't attack just do something. I put up an IC post responding to your nation on your accusations that it was me that committed the crimes. If, you would kindly responded to that post, I will post my response to your current attacks, if your still determined towards a course of war. In the re-post of your war declaration you can add all that was discussed here in the OCC thread. You know for example-where the attack aircraft are coming from and what their targets are- so on.

And your right it doesn't make any rational sense at all. That's why I moved on. It would be like the US in 2004 saying oh crap- I'm not ready to deal with this insurgency-here let me freeze time why I prepare. Would be nice in the real world if we could freeze time, but sadly we can't and so time keeps on ticking. 1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8........... and on and on for an eternity.

Hopefully, we worked out all of our issues and we can begin. I'm ready when you are.

Alif Laam Miim

27-01-2007, 07:48

this is getting really ridiculous...

I'm at this point now - if you guys cannot get your statistics in order for this week by the end of this week , I start to call the shots on these things and force this RP to move along. At one point, we have a stretch on realism that is necessary. I like to see debate, but the problem that I'm seeing is the same exact problems being debated over and over and over and over and over again. You guys are intentionally delaying this war, and perhaps to your own detriment. I'm getting sucked along by being an ooc moderator, a moderator that is reluctant to do anything outside of watching because he doesn't want to force a decisionn on someone else's RP. But the truth is that the rest of the world isn't going to wait for this to end [or even start]. All of this should have been resolved a long time ago, and settled at that time. Instead, I'm seeing the same topics being debated circularly [partially due to my memory's negligence].

I maintain the belief that none of you guys were actually ready for a war, even though you guys were ICly developing it all to come, which is either irresponsible or short-sighted [I hope it's the latter, because then I'd be really mad]. So you guys have one week to clear up ALL contentions before I start forcing a decision out, or just simply dropping my point to being a moderator if no one agrees with me.

And as far as what I've said about the time freeze, [I]it stands on account that both "premiers" declared a frozen time, and hence I take that decision to be my own. The B1B bomber has not been fully developed, and as far as it's relation to RL events, I'm not sure if it should have happened in this time line [but then this goes the same with the Panama Canal issue...] - the point is, it comes in during or after the war, NOT before it. And Sharina needs to settle all of the RUN's contentions so the RUN can make a reply [personally, I would have taken the reply already, but that's personally...]. As far as I have seen, everyone is ready to win the war, but no one really wants to get through the war [including me...]. So the faster we get to simple agreements, the better and faster we can get on to doing IC developments instead of OOC bickering.

Pardon my language if I've been excessive. School is starting a little slow, and I'm not pleased to see the same topics being talked about over and over again. So one week - you should almost be done, and I do not need to see the same things debated again.

Sharina

27-01-2007, 14:37

To be honest, I have been waiting a while for the war to get moving myself.

I was going with the IC flow- reacting IC'ly to what was percieved as an RUN attack (not knowing IC'ly that it was Vineyard who was behind it). I tend to avoid detailed stats and deployments because I don't like to "number-wank" or "detail-wank" the other side to death. I tend to focus a lot more on the story aspect of the war, such as writing out the battles, their impact, and such as opposed to math-like battles like on mainstream NS.

"I send 500 bombers to bomb you!

I send 1000 fighters to engage your 500 bombers!

Your 1000 fighters take down 300 of my bombers.

Your 200 remaining bombers inflict $40 billion worth of damage to my infrastructure in City X."

"Rawrrr! Rawrrr!"

(taken from the typical mainstream NS war RP's)

Add in multitudes of different bombers or fighter types, and you can see why I don't like to do that kind of thing. I'm more of the player who does stuff like this:

"The enemy sends hundreds of bombers of varying types aganist Baltimore. Nearly a thousand sleek and deadly Sharinan fighter aircraft roared off the various airbases throughout New England to engage the incoming bomber fleet detected on long range RADAR. The fighters engaged the enemy bombers with lethality and without mercy, managing to down most of the offending aircraft. Despite the best efforts of the Sharinan fighter pilots, a hundred enemy bombers managed to make it through to Baltimore, dropping ordinance upon several industrial centers. The damage was considerable and will take a while to repair. The Sharinan fighters manage to get in several more licks upon the returning bombers, destroying several more in a delicious taste of revenge for the destruction within Baltimore."

See why I leave my military assets half-vague? This way, it allows for flexible story based RP writing without insertion of "techno-babble" that I'm loath to use. I do keep track of the aircraft that I do lose, so I don't magically have more numbers than I have unless I roleplay building new stuff to replace the destroyed stuff.

All that aside, I really want to get this stuff moving. I was ready for action a couple months ago, and earlier this month when UE returned home from vacation. Most of the debates aganist me was mainly concerning the specific details of my military which I don't usually like to do (as explained above). I have already posted my general specifics like having US equipment, refueler capacity, F-22's missions, etc. I did add my base locations a while ago (the only major thing I was missing out on).

Anyways, lets get this stuff moving already. I want to finish this war and start up new RP's and try new RP ideas post-war.

Great Romeo

31-01-2007, 23:55

What's going on with this war?

United Earthlings

01-02-2007, 01:18

What's going on with this war?

WHAT WAR?:rolleyes: :confused:

Vineyard

02-02-2007, 01:43

What's going on with this war?

2 things.

1). UE has not posted his deployment on the Baleric Islands. Hell, I dont care if I even see it. I would just like some sort of confirmation. Not something like this:

Vineyard: My troops touch down on a highway.

UE: My troops are stationed on the surrounding mountains, Ospreys shot out of the sky and my troops kill yours =D

Vineyard: ZOMG!!! HOW DID YOU SEE THAT COMMING!?

UE: Duh! Common Sence!

Vineyard: WTF!

UE: IDIOT!

etc...

2). World of Warcraft, the Burning Crusade is extreemly addictive. Ever since the expansion came, my 'addiction' has creeped back. It is probably my fault for not asking for this sooner, but as previously stated, im waiting for some sort of deployment confirmation from ALM, stating that he, being ALM, has indeed seen UE's battle deployments to ensure that there is no 'foul-play' in terms of troops being suddenly conveniently stationed wherever my troops may be.....

EDIT: Oh, also, you NEED to post some sort of involvement/troop declaration in the OOC thread in order to be counted in this war.

Please.

EDIT 2:

Clarifacation for earlier points:

- I have constructed an Imperial Air Base- the biggest one in the Empire - just North of Rome. Sharinas bombers will be stationed there along with the majority of my air fleet, as the zone is more than adequatly defended.

- Also, GR's infantry have been dispersed over the Alpine Line, mostly as reinforcing points for my army units. As with my current armor deployments, his armor has joined mine behind the alps, parked, and ready for orders. Armor is cumbersome in Mountainous terrian, but as MC has declared that he will not be involved in the war, expect re-deployment in the near future.

Alif Laam Miim

02-02-2007, 21:41

For ease of determination, I will be posting the military declarations as applied in this thread to the IC thread on the first post, so people know who, what, and how much of each are participating in the conflict. As for Vineyard's remarks concerning the location of the RUN's armed forces, I have surveyed his declaration and although it is long winded, I do have a firm familiarity with respect to where his troops are located [although for ease of recognition, I would like to know which of those troops have been mobilized for combat, not simply just active.]

Of course, if everyone's going into total mobilization, then I trust that God will be equally disappointed in the future of our military strategic planning.

EDIT - I have made the post of declarations and added a section of useful information that may be saved for latter discussions in the future [either for refreshment, settling arguments, or correcting them...], so tell me if anything here [or there...] needs to be added to that list [and no, I am not going to add Wikipedia to that list... do that yourself]. Also, tell me if those post links are correct!

United Earthlings

02-02-2007, 22:37

ooc: [1.]Like I said earlier, I have yet to see any military deployment post. I have, however, seen your individual 'divisional' bases, 2 divisions being in the Baleric Isles.

[2.]Also: Reminder. 2 Million is spent per Imperial Guardsman. Which is why I regard them as the finest infantry in the world... and 1 Million for the average soldier. I just realized this myself, while looking over your military stats and mine.

[3.]Also, I have a question. Whats the Logistics/Combat personnel ration again? I thought it was 50:50... PLEASE clarify!

[4.]Above, the high pitched scream of the initial 200 fighter wave bolted past. Imperial Guardsmen cheered on the ground as their ariel comerades roared past. The next wave was a wave of 50, followed by 150 fighters and 150 bombers roared ahread, followed by another wave of 50. Then, the order was given to lift off. 3,572 ospreys lifted off into the air. The front row going first. Overhead, as they circuled and prepared to get into formation, a group of 500 Eurofighters grouped up on the horizon as the escort force. As soon as all the ospreys were in the air, the Eurofighters took up thir positions (1 group below, 2 above, 3 at 'level' with Ospreys.)

[5.]3 cruise missles screamed towards the Palma Airfeild, intended to prevent any Republic Fighters from landing there in the near future. (I.E create craters in the Tarmac.)

Redirected from IC thread.

First off, I posted it and you just must have missed it. So, here it is again. 43. 46th "Espana" Infantry Regiment (Based in the Balearic Islands, Spain)
44. 48th "Espana Infantry Regiment (Based in the Balearic Islands, Spain. Now, I further divided those two regiments with the 46th being completely based on Majorca Island (which is part of the Balearic Islands). The 48th was then divided among the other three Islands. For information, each of my regiments is made up of 3 Bn. The 48th Infantry Regiment has been divided up with 1 Battalion and it's additional support (Cannon Coy and a Anti-tank/Anti-Air Coy) joining it on Minorca. The 2 other Battalions are on Ibiza. The smallest of the Islands, Formentera has no military personnel due to it's size and location. And last point, as you can clearly read above. It's two regiments located in the Balearic Islands, not two divisions. However, once the war gets truly under way that could change. I have the ability to rapidly redeploy certain parts of my forces. Marines and Paras being the easiest.
Just be aware, spending the most does not guarantee the best forces. In, effect what we spend really can't be reflected in our Roleplay. Each of us, I'm assuming is going to roleplay our militaries as the greatest in the world. In, other words almost unbeatable. So, what we spend at this point is pointless. It's about telling a story, I'm going to do my best to make it a great story, whether I win or lose or it's a draw.
My ratio is 3:1 or 3:2, for I add support personnel into my divisions. For the other parts of my military I came up with my own method for calculating how much support personnel I have. Suffice to say, for every 3 combat person I have I at least 1 person support him/her or in most cases two.
Ok, so according to that out of the blue (no, you haven't declared war on me so your planning to attack me out of the blue I.E. your trying to achieve tactical surprise-however you don't know that I know you are preparing to attack me.) your are attacking me with 765 Fighters, 150 Tu-160 bombers and 3,572 ospreys. Just, so your aware- It won't take me long to figure something’s up with that much commitment on your part. An additional note- I'm fine with you sending that huge force just be aware it's going to take you hours to get it all organized and moving. That gives me hours to prepare if I shall choose and we both know I would prepare as we haven't exactly being seen eye to eye. You don't trust me, I don't trust you. Anyways, my last point on that- each Osprey can carry 24 troops. That's 85,728 troops your sending to me, minus of course the Ospreys that are hauling along most of your equipment. Just, for the record for future posting you need to state who you are attacking with and where. For all I know, you could be sending that huge force towards the Middle East.
Las Palmas or Palma Airfield is in the Canary Islands on Gran Canaria Island. I'm assuming you want to destroy or disable the airfield in the Balearic Islands? If, that is the case your target is Son San Juan (or San Juan) Airfield on Majorca [Spanish-Mallorca] Island. Now, if you want to destroy the Palma Airfield your welcome to, but your going to need to get closer first as a Tomahawks won't reach the Canaries from Bologna. Note: I see, the capital of the Balearic Islands is Palma. However, the airfield is still not called Palma but, San Juan. As you can see I've tailed my fact book to be very specify. You should consult it before attacking me anywhere to get a good idea of for one what’s there and two place names.

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2 things.

1). UE has not posted his deployment on the Baleric Islands. Hell, I don’t care if I even see it. I would just like some sort of confirmation. Not something like this:

Vineyard: My troops touch down on a highway.

UE: My troops are stationed on the surrounding mountains, Ospreys shot out of the sky and my troops kill yours =D

Vineyard: ZOMG!!! HOW DID YOU SEE THAT COMMING!?

UE: Duh! Common Sence!

Vineyard: WTF!

UE: IDIOT!

etc...

2). World of Warcraft, the Burning Crusade is extreemly addictive. Ever since the expansion came, my 'addiction' has creeped back. It is probably my fault for not asking for this sooner, but as previously stated, im waiting for some sort of deployment confirmation from ALM, stating that he, being ALM, has indeed seen UE's battle deployments to ensure that there is no 'foul-play' in terms of troops being suddenly conveniently stationed wherever my troops may be.....

EDIT: Oh, also, you NEED to post some sort of involvement/troop declaration in the OOC thread in order to be counted in this war.

Please.

EDIT 2:

Clarifacation for earlier points:

- I have constructed an Imperial Air Base- the biggest one in the Empire - just North of Rome. Sharinas bombers will be stationed there along with the majority of my air fleet, as the zone is more than adequatly defended.

- Also, GR's infantry have been dispersed over the Alpine Line, mostly as reinforcing points for my army units. As with my current armor deployments, his armor has joined mine behind the alps, parked, and ready for orders. Armor is cumbersome in Mountainous terrian, but as MC has declared that he will not be involved in the war, expect re-deployment in the near future.

1. See, point 1 above this reply.

2. I would never call you an IDIOT.

3. That's a good example, except I would add after DUH- It's called Radar. Learn it, use it, love it. :D [Sarcasm]Yeah, I'm so not going to see thousands of aircraft coming my way with my advance airborne and land based radars that can detect aircraft out to over 270 miles.[End Sarcasm] Adding to that, I already prove to you I have military satellites, though they are limited in number since as I said I'm more for people directly on the ground, lots and lots of people.

Vineyard

04-02-2007, 07:44

Hell, I expect you to know that I'm comming. But in spite of that, my exact landing zone would not be known to your forces, considering its relitive distance, the angle of approach, etc... Essentially, by the time you DO figure out where im landing, I don't think you could deploy sufficent numbers of troops there.

On another note my Osprey's carry 14 men each. About 50,000 Imperial Guard are heading your way. The capacity has been reduced in the interests of safty and weaponry, both of which I have elaborated on in the past and shall do so again if I must.

And I know spending is not essentially the determining factor in a battle. Its the versitility of the infantry that im talking about. Again, I reiterate the soldier's advanced communications and coordination capabilities via satilite and individual coordinators somewhere in an underground bunker deep in the heartlands.

And I will edit/delete the missle post.

For now, im tired. And a big day is comming up tomorrow.

EDIT: While you may have people "Lots of people" on the ground, making a living in the Empire, or even surviving for that matter, would be near impossible for a spy. They would have to acquire a job, check into that job, acquire papers to travel, Utilize job clasification level to acquire food. IE: 1 worker in the Construction Industry is going to get rations for 1 person that is high in calories.

In Short: In order for you to have any effective spies, these spies would have to evade police patrols, evade check points, and live off the land and in the wild. That, in my opinion, makes for a very ineffective spy.

Sharina

05-02-2007, 02:17

I'm waiting for the go-ahead from ALM before I start bombing stuff, as it seems like most of the contentions with or aganist me have already been resolved to a degree.

Alif Laam Miim

05-02-2007, 02:37

Sharina

05-02-2007, 03:42

If UE has no more contentions, the bombings are a "go" - besides that, I'd be prodding you to do something in the meantime anyway. This war is awfully static [unless I am blind to the majority of the "behind the scenes" planning...].

I'm assuming that this war and everything after it begins once I issued my declaration of war and sent my forces on their way (my war declaration post from Dec.)

Azaha

05-02-2007, 03:51

*Lurks under ze briney deep, 'vaiting to pounce...*

Alif Laam Miim

05-02-2007, 03:58

I'm assuming that this war and everything after it begins once I issued my declaration of war and sent my forces on their way (my war declaration post from Dec.)

that would be correct, although I'm finding it increasingly difficult to determine when and where that was...

United Earthlings

05-02-2007, 06:21

Directed towards Vineyard....

OCC: Just so your aware, using Fluid time Sweden has had time to rebuild their forces. If your going to be attacking Sweden and thereby bringing them into the war on my side, I’m going to have to create a military declaration for them-just so your aware of that. I was going to leave Sweden out and only have it join the Republic after the war. Also, if your attacking Sweden because you think they are part of the Republic at the present time they are not. The Republics role in Sweden is low key, so as not to draw attention to themselves. That is while all posts for Bangladesh and Sweden are SIC. The small amount of forces I have in Sweden have in the current time line already been returned, but could be redeployed. This is why I decided after much debate to leave Sweden and Bangladesh out, unless they themselves are attacked.

I couldn’t find it, so what army group or divisions are you using to attack the Balearic Islands? Next, I don’t care how big your Imperial Airbase in Rome is, it’s not going to hold 2,000 fighters plus whatever else you got there. The max amount of aircraft a single big airbase can hold is around 100 planes. I see that you have built a bigger Air Base, but it still is not going to hold 2,000 plus aircraft, most likely no more then 200 to 300 hundred. Please have that reflected in your military declaration. You got 20,000? I think you mean as the 2,000 fighters arrive. Very helpful to see where your attacking and what cities their near.

Also, I’m going to have my aircraft intercept yours before they get near the Balearic Islands. So, your going to need to have to edit your post some probably.

Samtonia

05-02-2007, 16:59

Next, I don’t care how big your Imperial Airbase in Rome is, it’s not going to hold 2,000 fighters plus whatever else you got there. The max amount of aircraft a single big airbase can hold is around 100 planes. I see that you have built a bigger Air Base, but it still is not going to hold 2,000 plus aircraft, most likely no more then 200 to 300 hundred.
Please. Have you ever been to any major airport in the United States? LAX, O'Hare, Atlanta, JFK Int. all spring very quickly t mind. These airports don't deal with relatively small military planes, they deal with jumbo jets. Jumbo jets and massive amounts of passengers, all who demand very large and very nice Terminals. His airport is a military airbase. It does not need massive, centralized terminals. It does not need the associated annoyances loading and unloading huge jumbojets every day all year round brings. It can actually hold more aircraft in a similar space.

Add in this being one of Vineyard's largest bases, I think it's safe to assume that this dwarfs the current airports in Rome and probably is larger than O'Hare. Which means at least 6 runways that are designed for jumbojets (though probably more). Room for well over 100 aircraft arriving and departing per hour is at O'Hare, before their big push to modernize- and keep in mind, that's commerical airlines that require far more baggage loaidng, passenger movement, and other problems commerical airlines will get.

So to claim that major airports only have 100 aircraft on them is ridiculous. To claim there's some tye of max (witohut providing documentation or comparison) is ludicrous. And to say that Vineyard cannot have an enormous base, with a dozen runways or more, to launch his aircraft from is not your claim to make- it's his. If he wants the associated problems and advantages that come with that approach, let him.

Alif Laam Miim

05-02-2007, 20:19

Vineyard

06-02-2007, 04:45

Directed towards Vineyard....

OCC:
1). Just so your aware, using Fluid time Sweden has had time to rebuild their forces. If your going to be attacking Sweden and thereby bringing them into the war on my side, I’m going to have to create a military declaration for them-just so your aware of that. I was going to leave Sweden out and only have it join the Republic after the war. Also, if your attacking Sweden because you think they are part of the Republic at the present time they are not. The Republics role in Sweden is low key, so as not to draw attention to themselves. That is while all posts for Bangladesh and Sweden are SIC. The small amount of forces I have in Sweden have in the current time line already been returned, but could be redeployed. This is why I decided after much debate to leave Sweden and Bangladesh out, unless they themselves are attacked.

2). I couldn’t find it, so what army group or divisions are you using to attack the Balearic Islands?

<snip> (Further elaboration beyond the points made by Samtonia would be redundant)

3). You got 20,000? I think you mean as the 2,000 fighters arrive. Very helpful to see where your attacking and what cities the(y are) near.

4). Also, I’m going to have my aircraft intercept yours before they get near the Balearic Islands. So, your going to need to have to edit your post some probably.

1). Mmmm, I thought Sweden was post war. As the post war being a premise, I thought to invade it to further the interests of TGSR and GR. They give me lots and lots of goodies when I do nice things for them. And I see no reason to believe thats its Pre-war, considering the numerable concurances AND decrees regarding the non-involvment of Sweden and Bengladesh. At any rate, it will be a seperate war. Apparently the facist groups in Sweden and Finland have staged coordinated coops, and have invited the Combined Might of GR and Vineyard to help them consolidate their nations! Or so the papers will claim... at least those we have our collective thumbs on.

2). The Imperial Guard. Being consistant of 50,000 men, its your standard Army structure... well sorta. The US army is divided up a little differently, depending on army/structure function.

1 Army Unit = 50k men
2 Corps = 25k men each
4 Divisions = 12,500 men each
8 Birgades = 6,250 men each
40 Batallions = 1,250 men each
200 Companies = 250 men each
1000 Platoons = 50 men each
5000 Squads = 10 men each.

"Why is this differnet from the Battlegroup?"

Battlegroups are smaller, easily managable units. The Empire focuses on a small, highly professional army as its first line of defence. Its reserves are about 2x larger than the regular army. In a protracted war, the Empire could feild dozens of battlegroups. You see, the way I see it, if an enemy survives the Initial assault, then professionalism clearly failed. Time to bring in the numbers. That, and, the Empire expects the enemy units to be at least shattered, making it that much easier on the Reserve Units.

3). Probably a typo. Im sorry. Just 2,000.

4). Ok. I was expecting that. I just laid out the plans. Unless, of course, my initial air waves are somehow wiped off the face of the earth, then the ospreys would fly back w/ escorts all the way to Rome, tails tucked between our legs.

United Earthlings

06-02-2007, 09:50

Please. Have you ever been to any major airport in the United States? LAX, O'Hare, Atlanta, JFK Int. all spring very quickly t mind. These airports don't deal with relatively small military planes, they deal with jumbo jets. Jumbo jets and massive amounts of passengers, all who demand very large and very nice Terminals. His airport is a military airbase. It does not need massive, centralized terminals. It does not need the associated annoyances loading and unloading huge jumbojets every day all year round brings. It can actually hold more aircraft in a similar space.

Add in this being one of Vineyard's largest bases, I think it's safe to assume that this dwarfs the current airports in Rome and probably is larger than O'Hare. Which means at least 6 runways that are designed for jumbojets (though probably more). Room for well over 100 aircraft arriving and departing per hour is at O'Hare, before their big push to modernize- and keep in mind, that's commerical airlines that require far more baggage loaidng, passenger movement, and other problems commerical airlines will get.

So to claim that major airports only have 100 aircraft on them is ridiculous. To claim there's some tye of max (witohut providing documentation or comparison) is ludicrous. And to say that Vineyard cannot have an enormous base, with a dozen runways or more, to launch his aircraft from is not your claim to make- it's his. If he wants the associated problems and advantages that come with that approach, let him.

First off, love the sarcasm. Second, I now will proceed to rip your argument to shreds. No, thanks is required. :D

Please, have you ever been to an Air Base! Comparing an Civilian Airport to a Military Air Base is beyond ludicrous it's lunacy at it's finest. The single largest Air Force Base in the United States is Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. Which just so happens to be in the same state as I live in and the same state as Macdill Air Force Base is in. And I've been to Macdill Air Force Base, which is the home to CENTCOM and in fact a pretty large Air Base. Can you say the same?

According to scramble (which is a good source) Eglin supports the following units that have operational Aircraft. The 33rd Fighter Wing “Nomads” (58th and 60th FS), The 53rd Wing (85th TES Squadron), The 46th Test Wing (40th FLTS Squadron) and 919th Special Operations Wing (9th SOS Squadron). In total there are four Squadrons that operate aircraft at Eglin Air Force Base. A Squadron has between 12-24 aircraft. Using the max amount, there is a maximum amount of 96 aircraft based at Eglin Air Force Base. For the record. Eglin Air Force Base is the home of the United States Air Force 96th Air Base Wing of the Air Force Materiel Command, and is also headquarters for more than 45 associate units.

Eglin is one of the largest Air Force bases in the world, covering 724 square miles (1,875 km²) of reservation and 97,963 square miles (253,723 km²) of water ranges in the Gulf of Mexico.

Eglin employs more than 8,500 military and approximately 4,500 civilians, with an additional 2,200 jobs due to move to Eglin under the 2005 BRAC.

Wow, it's one of the largest in the world and yet it still only supports a maximum of 96 Aircraft and in fact probably less. So, I think I stick with my original statement of Next, I don’t care how big your Imperial Airbase in Rome is, it’s not going to hold 2,000 fighters plus whatever else you got there. The max amount of aircraft a single big airbase can hold is around 100 planes. I see that you have built a bigger Air Base, but it still is not going to hold 2,000 plus aircraft, most likely no more then 200 to 300 hundred.

I think I proved my point!

In closing, you misquoted me throughout your entire post. I never for once stated in your words "And to say that Vineyard cannot have an enormous base, with a dozen runways or more, to launch his aircraft from is not your claim to make- it's his." Thank you for putting words in my mouth. He can have his enormous base, but if he thinks I'm going to buy that it can support 2000 plus aircraft he's got another thing coming. 200-300 max. I think that's very realistic, around 100 would be even more closer to reality. Which in my opinion is in the spirt of Earth V. To maintain a sense of realism as much as possible.

Since, your probably going to claim that I made all that up or some shit. Here's the proof you seek. The following are the sources I used.

1. Official Air Force Site of Eglin Air Force Base (http://www.eglin.af.mil/)
2. Unofficial Source, but still helpful. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglin_Air_Force_Base)
3. The Official United States Air Force Site for the Units at Eglin Air Force Base (http://www.united-publishers.com/EglinGuide/units.html)
4. Good Site about what units are where. Very good site. (http://www.scramble.nl/usaf.htm)

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How about this: you intercept his planes and he deals with the damage incurred upon his air force? Not only does it eliminate the problem of so many planes, it actually creates action which people can later judge. And I'd have to ask how you would detect these planes arriving [unless by preemption you had already readied your forces in anticipation of a random Vineyardian attack on the Baleares...] Although I must agree about Vineyard's attack - from where are these forces specifically coming? Which unit?

1. I was planing on doing that anyway. I didn't know I could God-Mod before hand. Darn it, why didn't you tell me I could God-Mod earlier. :rolleyes: Anyway, I got two good posts up starting the attack. One in the Air, One from the ground.

2. Airborne Radar/Ship borne Radar and to a limited extent Ground Based Radars in the Baleares Islands and from Corsica . Also, in the background are my Satellites, though I did forget to imply I'm using them IC but oh well- I'll add it to my to do list in my next post or I can edit my previous post.

3. Yes, I also had readily my forces for a possible attack. I saw the warnings and choose not to ignore them.

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1). Mmmm, I thought Sweden was [I]post war. As the post war being a premise, I thought to invade it to further the interests of TGSR and GR. They give me lots and lots of goodies when I do nice things for them. And I see no reason to believe thats its Pre-war, considering the numerable concurances AND decrees regarding the non-involvment of Sweden and Bengladesh. At any rate, it will be a seperate war. Apparently the facist groups in Sweden and Finland have staged coordinated coops, and have invited the Combined Might of GR and Vineyard to help them consolidate their nations! Or so the papers will claim... at least those we have our collective thumbs on.

That post was a little hard to understand, but I think I kind of get what your saying. Let me put in a simpler way. The action in Sweden and Bangladesh takes place Pre-War as it relates to my Role-play for them. I'm going to claim them Post War so as not to create conflicting stats. Remember, both take place in secret. From your IC vantage point everything looks normal. So, it would be a little odd why your deploying so many troops to the borders of Finland. As, you have no IC knowledge of my involvement in Sweden. By attacking Sweden and/or Finland you would be driving them into my side-if you knew Sweden was already on my side and all it want's to do is sit out the war in peace as it has a history of doing. Sweden, is the longest nation in the world for not having been in wars. The last war Sweden fought was in 1814. You attacking a very neutral country with no ties to anyone (IC: According to you), which would not look good for you.

This is how I'm setting it up. Sweden and Bangladesh are Neutral just like ALM. Both Sweden and Bangladesh have ties to the Republic, but unlike ALM these ties are not known to the rest of the world. If you or Great Romeo or anyone else for that matter attacks them, you or whoever just brought them into the war depending who attacks them and what kind of attack. For example, say citizens from your nation went rogue and exploded a bomb in the Capital of Sweden. Since, it's terrorism no nation is to blame and hence Sweden has not joined the war. Using that same example, you send a group of your military to plant bombs in various parts of Sweden. They find out, that action is an act of war and they are now your enemy.

Got it? Invade Sweden or Bangladesh (there in the war). Leave them alone, they sit it out and support no one/everyone depending who they trade with.

Edit: One more thing, Vineyard what's going on with your forces in the Middle East and in South America. They still there, not there? Last I read, they were bogged down in heavy fighting, however the last posts for them were some time ago at least over 4 months ago. Have you abandon those countries or do you plan to use them somehow during the war, pending completion of your Role-play for them?

Military Command

06-02-2007, 20:31

United Earthlings

06-02-2007, 20:37

I would be willing to fight a limited war on my boarder with Vineyard in the alps and in the Med but limited no incurse into each others countries more then 100 km no more and after everything is done the land will be contested to be returned to it owns.

It would be nice, if real wars were fought that way. Sadly, in real life their not. My dear friend and ally, your either in the war or not. Trust me, from the looks of this war it will not be limited in anyway. Besides, what's the fun of role-playing when you both have a fixed outcome. If, it goes right back to where it was- what was the point of even doing it to begin with?

Anyway, good to see your still active. How goes the RP for the United Kingdom?

Vineyard

06-02-2007, 22:44

Please, have you ever been to an Air Base! Comparing an Civilian Airport to a Military Air Base is beyond ludicrous it's lunacy at it's finest. The single largest Air Force Base in the United States is Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. Which just so happens to be in the same state as I live in and the same state as Macdill Air Force Base is in. And I've been to Macdill Air Force Base, which is the home to CENTCOM and in fact a pretty large Air Base. Can you say the same?

Eglin is one of the largest Air Force bases in the world, covering 724 square miles (1,875 km²) of reservation and 97,963 square miles (253,723 km²) of water ranges in the Gulf of Mexico.

Eglin employs more than 8,500 military and approximately 4,500 civilians, with an additional 2,200 jobs due to move to Eglin under the 2005 BRAC.[/B]

Wow, it's one of the largest in the world and yet it still only supports a maximum of 96 Aircraft and in fact probably less. So, I think I stick with my original statement of Next, I don’t care how big your Imperial Airbase in Rome is, it’s not going to hold 2,000 fighters plus whatever else you got there. The max amount of aircraft a single big airbase can hold is around 100 planes. I see that you have built a bigger Air Base, but it still is not going to hold 2,000 plus aircraft, most likely no more then 200 to 300 hundred.

I think I proved my point!

In closing, you misquoted me throughout your entire post. I never for once stated in your words "And to say that Vineyard cannot have an enormous base, with a dozen runways or more, to launch his aircraft from is not your claim to make- it's his." Thank you for putting words in my mouth. He can have his enormous base, but if he thinks I'm going to buy that it can support 2000 plus aircraft he's got another thing coming. 200-300 max. I think that's very realistic, around 100 would be even more closer to reality. Which in my opinion is in the spirt of Earth V. To maintain a sense of realism as much as possible.

Since, your probably going to claim that I made all that up or some shit. Here's the proof you seek. The following are the sources I used.

1. Official Air Force Site of Eglin Air Force Base (http://www.eglin.af.mil/)
2. Unofficial Source, but still helpful. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglin_Air_Force_Base)
3. The Official United States Air Force Site for the Units at Eglin Air Force Base (http://www.united-publishers.com/EglinGuide/units.html)
4. Good Site about what units are where. Very good site. (http://www.scramble.nl/usaf.htm)

That post was a little hard to understand, but I think I kind of get what your saying. Let me put in a simpler way. The action in Sweden and Bangladesh takes place Pre-War as it relates to my Role-play for them. I'm going to claim them Post War so as not to create conflicting stats. Remember, both take place in secret. From your IC vantage point everything looks normal. So, it would be a little odd why your deploying so many troops to the borders of Finland. As, you have no IC knowledge of my involvement in Sweden. By attacking Sweden and/or Finland you would be driving them into my side-if you knew Sweden was already on my side and all it want's to do is sit out the war in peace as it has a history of doing. Sweden, is the longest nation in the world for not having been in wars. The last war Sweden fought was in 1814. You attacking a very neutral country with no ties to anyone (IC: According to you), which would not look good for you.

This is how I'm setting it up. Sweden and Bangladesh are Neutral just like ALM. Both Sweden and Bangladesh have ties to the Republic, but unlike ALM these ties are not known to the rest of the world. If you or Great Romeo or anyone else for that matter attacks them, you or whoever just brought them into the war depending who attacks them and what kind of attack. For example, say citizens from your nation went rogue and exploded a bomb in the Capital of Sweden. Since, it's terrorism no nation is to blame and hence Sweden has not joined the war. Using that same example, you send a group of your military to plant bombs in various parts of Sweden. They find out, that action is an act of war and they are now your enemy.

Got it? Invade Sweden or Bangladesh (there in the war). Leave them alone, they sit it out and support no one/everyone depending who they trade with.

Edit: One more thing, Vineyard what's going on with your forces in the Middle East and in South America. They still there, not there? Last I read, they were bogged down in heavy fighting, however the last posts for them were some time ago at least over 4 months ago. Have you abandon those countries or do you plan to use them somehow during the war, pending completion of your Role-play for them?

Ok, you live near an airfeild. And I auctually doubt you've seen it. If you did, that would be pretty bad... At any rate, that is impressive. You live near an airforce base? You must be an expert.

Have I ever mentioned that I am in the ROTC?

At any rate, I know and acknawladge that the 'size' of this airbase would be difficult. But, as im sure you are about to lable all of the following "Bullshit" in a long and not-so-to-the-point paragraph, allow me to explain it in its simplest terms.

Surface Area wise, yes. It would be problematic. But I (err, the Empire for that matter) is infatuated with Underground Bunkers. Its exactly the sort of thing that the Croats perfected, partially thanks to the geography of the region.

At any rate, I have often made references and hints to 'elevators' rising up to the ground with Airplanes. Its not rising from the ground and into the air. That would be lunacy. But instead, it is ferrying it up from under ground.

A carrier keeps and maintains most of its fighters below deck, which it then raises up with an elevator to the flight deck. Not take the hulk of that aircraft carrier, double it, add a few garages below, a few hangers, a road, a fence, a few guards, and you have what im aiming for. Oh, and sink it into the earth.

"Not possible!"

Think Maginot Line. 100% Underground facilities. Actually, the Empire is littered with those types of systems... only not the WW2 type :)

Alas, you are set in your beliefs, as I am in mine. Instead, I will have individual sets of Eurofighters take off from supplementary air bases, which are few in the Empire to concentrate on Ariel centers, one of which was Rome. But no matter. I'll build more. The Airbase near Rome couldn't possible exist! So I have planes, men, and material freed up for other locations! Meaning that, using fluid time, The Airbase at Rome is a decently sized airfeild! Carries 50 fighters! Wow! And, as it turns out, Italy is LITTERED with such bases! Over 50 of such! Scattered over that lone country!

Please. At this point, ALM should probably weigh in.

And onto the next topic!

The 3rd is NOT fighting. There is NO conflict in the middle east at this point and time. I believe that 2 Infantry Divisions of the 3rd are preparing costal defencive networks along the Kuwaiti and Iraqi coast. The Armored division is sitting on its haunched behind such lines. And the last Infantry Division is being used to construct improvements and bases in Kuwaiti and Iraqi cities, along with establishing the TO netowrk.

The 2nd Battlegroup in South America I will get to. I am actually waiting for Sharina to commence in the Americas as well, to allow for a simultaneous assult. That way, your units can not shift around to support one another.

MC: If you declare war against me I will follow no constraints. I am not 'honorable'. "Honor" is an idea nations can ill-afford. You go against the Empire, The Empire will conduct its share of the war on its own terms.

Also, lets take a peek at what you are up against if you attack:

Mountain defences
Bunkers
Boobytraps
Dug in Infantry
Mined roads
Artillary
Mortars
Barbed Wire
Poor footing
Rocks. Lots and lots of rocks.
Altitude Sickness (Especially if your attacking up a mountain)
Camoflagued defencive lines
Several lines of defence.

Now... if I were to attack:

1 'row' of mountains to pass
Open country
Rolling hills
Lush green Forests
Wide open feilds
No prepared defences.

So I invite you to join the war. I have always wanted France.

Ooor, you can remain nutural. Gain a profit from both sides serving as the middleman. Prevent me from launching the majority of my forces into the fray. You see, the only thing holding me back from such is the lack of accessibility. I cannot attack the RUN with anything but an ariel assault at this point. No major land routes. And, I respect your nutrality and boundries. While my good friend UE sends you telegram after telegram convincing you to join the war, I do not. Why? I respect your integrity. I, unlike UE, do not want to see any nation risk their well being on my behalf.

So, as UE asks for your aid in the war, ask yourself this:

What do I have to gain?

And are these objectives reachable?

Can you really scale prepared defences manned by hundreds of thousands of troops to reach Italy?

Or can you hold your 1 adventagous foothold in the Alps to prevent an Imperial incoursion into France?

And what will happen to your other holdings?

By going to war with me you go to war with GR. Can you really hold your part of Russia, Japan, and your other Asian holdings WHILE contending with the majority of the Imperial Land Army in Europe?

UE can sing you tales of how powerful you would become. You can have Italy! Slovenia! Croatia! But the truth is something entirly different in Reality. The Empire's Reserves are big. Very big. They dwarf the standing army of the Empire. In protracted wars, the Empire relies on the citizen-soldier. The TO's and the Reserves. Ask yourself how many battlegroups can you defeat? If the answer is 50, then by all means. Proceed.

The Great Sixth Reich

07-02-2007, 02:11

Azaha

07-02-2007, 02:27

BAM (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12301123&postcount=1354)

Alif Laam Miim

07-02-2007, 05:50

I'm on at the apparent bequest of those participating - otherwise, I would be studying Chinese and being the pious child learning his characters...

First of all, echoing the sentiments of the premier TG6R - please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, stop using sarcasm. More to UE than to Vineyard, because while you might be amused to watch this unfold, I'm finding it seriously ineffective and testing my patience quite often
Please. At this point, ALM should probably weigh in.
[/QUOTE]

Of what do you wish my decision?

Regarding your airbase that supposedly holds 2000 aircraft, obviously, if you've already built it, I can't say that you didn't build it. But as nearly everyone else has mentioned, there is a severe cost to utilizing such a large base for a large number of aircraft, notably the coordination of launching aircraft, landing them, and managing the logistics of maintaining communication with 2000 taking off and/or 2000 landing crafts - in real life, the only real advantage is that you keep your eggs in one basket, which isn't a very good advantage anyway. It makes for a very nice target, if people can manage to get to it. Besides that, your functionality would be extremely limited, because you would only likely be able to efficiently launch/land perhaps at best 200 aircraft per hour. I can't give an accurate depiction of how many would be the most number - I'm guessing that my statement is an overstatement of the efficiency of a military installation of that size and purpose, but I don't know for certain - but nonetheless, 2000 aircraft all taking off from the same field would at best expend a large portion of the day's activities. Of course, taking in account that airbases normally hold reserve aircraft, it is possible to have 2000 aircraft at one massive base, and reserve some of them for a later strike. But then again, there is the main concern - a large airfield is undesirably inefficient. You can efficiently launch 100 aircraft from 20 airbases and have them in formation to make an attack at nearly the same time [or as would be better arrayed, in three constituent waves].

However, your most recent post indicates to me that you don't have an airbase that holds 2000 aircraft at one site, and hence makes me wonder what the fuss is about on that regard. My concern is more on the fact that you have 2000 planes attacking at the same time, especially for a target that is exceptionally small. Do you really want to waste all of those resources bombing one island [or group of islands]?

If you want clearance on underground bunkers, I see no qualms with it. Nearly all major powers have some form of underground bunker, and - as noted in the French example - they have existed for a very long time. I would be more concerned with the cost of building and maintaining a large number of those facilities as the staple form of static defense networking, but apparently the Empire of Vineyard is willing to cope with that cost [personally, I've been planning to building a few underground bunkers in the desert, but I haven't had the time to devote to building them yet, and as far as I know, none of my countries possess accredited subterranean bunkers - except maybe in Saudi Arabia... but I digress...]. So an underground airbase would be entirely plausible; but the same problem of logistics is in general effect, because unless your airbase is substantially large above and below, it would still take a very long time for you to launch all 2000 planes in a synchronous time to arrive in formation on time to make the strike as planned within the same day reasonably.

Concerning the "status" of various persons involved in the conflict, I have had extensive ties to the US and other Foreign Militaries - in addition to being an Army brat. What does that mean to me? Absolutely nothing. I have a poor aptitude to understanding military equipment unless it is thoroughly explained to me at face. I have to research a lot of my details in order to understand some things that might otherwise be considered basic. My practical knowledge is also somewhat limiting. The one reason why I agreed to serve as war moderator was more on my relative knowledge with tactics, strategy, and some things otherwise conceived as common sense. But that aside, if any one wants to start waving RL credentials at this thing - unless you hold a PhD in Military Science [and even then...] - you're going to find the sorrowful bottom of my palm quickly before I set things right with your perceptions. Simply living next to an airbase [so I've seen?] or enrolling in a JROTC or ROTC program does not entail automatically that you have expert mastery of the material at hand. Instead, I'd equally respect you if you only demonstrated knowledge of what really matters at hand than what seems to make a difference, so the sum of that story - don't start involving your RL character into an NS RP in more ways than you can count; it's not going to be pretty at the end of things.

@MC: Unfortunately, this war was supposed to be limited in the first place, but it was evident afterwards that it wasn't going to be limited by any means. In fact, if you don't want to get hurt by the war at all, I'd strongly suggest ICly staying out, since you've already declared your official neutrality in the first place. But if you do want to become involved, do be aware that I have not seen any mobilization orders for your country [other than for England - and how is that supposedly going, as I have not seen much of it since a long time...], so compared to Vineyard, you'd be at a disadvantage from the get-go.

And a last comment, eloquently stated by UE:
In closing, you misquoted me throughout your entire post. I never for once stated in your words "And to say that Vineyard cannot have an enormous base, with a dozen runways or more, to launch his aircraft from is not your claim to make- it's his." Thank you for putting words in my mouth. [B]He can have his enormous base, but if he thinks I'm going to buy that it can support 2000 plus aircraft he's got another thing coming. 200-300 max. I think that's very realistic, around 100 would be even more closer to reality. Which in my opinion is in the spirt of Earth V. To maintain a sense of realism as much as possible.

=== He can have his grandiose airbase, as long as he is willing to accept the significant costs and disadvantages of having it, in the place of smaller, more reasonably established airbases.

Such is the way of RL - some genius creates an excellent idea, and when it is set for operation, it fails the test. Unfortunately, at the moment, there is little opportunity in which I can see best exploits the opportunity until you manage to turn the defensive into an attack on Rome [which is where this base is supposedly established]. Because his reaction to send a large number of aircraft against you would be limited, unless he called upon other nearby airbases.

A case in point:

Washington DC is currently surrounded by the following air bases:

- Andrews Air Base
- Boiling Air Base
- Patuxent Naval Air Station

These are the only strictly military installations; granted, there are possibly facilities at either BWI or Dulles that could accommodate National Air Guard aircraft and pilots, but you can infer a couple of things directly from this limited establishment [noting furthermore that there are at least 6 other reasonably sized airbases within 200 miles of DC itself]. Instead of having one major base that accommodates the majority of DC's national air-to-air defense capacity, there are numerous sites. Having numerous sites allows you to launch as planes from one air base at one time from numerous points at the same time. Supposing that you can launch 5 aircraft in sequence from one runway at one time - by having 3 separate air bases, you can launch 15 at the same time. Granted, if someone decides to launch 2000 aircraft at your capital at the same time [reasonable for the strategic and tactical significance...], 15 aircraft might not do well anyway, but considering that the majority of RL American threats against its principal political and military capital do not manifest in the form of 2000 planes attacking it at the same time, the security granted by 3 air bases [one of which being naval] is enough to counter most threats [I say most...].

Now, if I have not resolved anything that you had wanted me to resolve, I would also strongly suggest that all future requests for a final decision [if such requests are made, and I can feel that they will happen inevitably...], please ask me the specific details about which you are asking - otherwise, I will have no absolute idea what you want me to resolve. If I managed to get your request down smack on the dial, consider yourself lucky for one...

But on another positive note, I am very glad to see what kind of progress is being otherwise made, as we are now finally struggling to extrude an air battle over the Baleares - one can only hope that it comes to a good conclusion.

And Azaha, as has been mentioned numerous times in numerous settings, you will need to also post your military deployments [those troops that will be involved in the fighting, not necessarily those troops currently displayed in your active forces ORBAT declaration that everyone should have already anyway...]

Azaha

07-02-2007, 16:24

And ALM... I know... but I have yet to dedicate anyone to fighting... as I said in the post, no one is being mobilized... so... give me time to gauge reactions?

United Earthlings

07-02-2007, 21:07

I have three comments:

I. Vineyard is in the Army JROTC.

II. The amount of sarcasm in this thread is getting ridiculous. It contributes nothing; it should be avoided.

III. Yes, an airbase of that size would be possible. However, it is certainly not desirable. Not only would it be insanely expensive and labor-intensive to build, but even after it was built, it would take hours to launch all the aircraft, leaving it vulnerable to attack (unless Vineyard built dozens of runways, which would make it take even longer to build and create a significant risk for mid-air collisions with all the aircraft in the area organizing into their flights).

2. Ok, no more Sarcasm from me then.

3. I never said it wasn't impossible, just highly unrealistic at it relates to Earth V. I know of no Air Force Base by any nation on the entire planet of Earth that comes even close to what Vineyardian is saying he's got. As, I saw it- that goes against what were trying to strive for in Earth V, a sense of realism as best as possible. If, someone can find an example of it existing in real life of an Air Base with an huge underground complex that would be great. We have a real life example, until then as I said- I'll accept it because even I agree it would be possible just highly complex, expensive and very unpraitical. Just look at how many problems are run into when just building tunnels and those projects are going to be cake walks to what Vineyard is going to have to build not just once, but accourding to him many times over. At least I know where all his defense budget goes plus extra. Even one of those your looking at will run into the tens of billions of dollars, if not more. Doing something no one has ever tried before, is always ALWAYS more expensive.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, echoing the sentiments of the premier TG6R - please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, stop using sarcasm. More to UE than to Vineyard, because while you might be amused to watch this unfold, I'm finding it seriously ineffective and testing my patience quite often [because the rest of the world has other things to do than watch this unfold at a turtle's pace. Unless we seriously need the humor, please keep it for another time.

I think we need the humor, because this waiting is driving me just as nuts and some of that delay was my fault.

Truth be told, it's slower then a turtle's pace. I've seen turtles move faster. A snail comes to mind with the amount of time waiting, but oh well such is life. As they say, Patience is a Virtue.

I'm not amused in the slightest, I was just trying to lighten the mood. I see I failed at that goal. Ok, if that's what you want. No more Sarcasm from me if I can avoid it.

Instead of Sarcasm, how about some Music to pass the time and lift our spirts and mood why we all wait. Now, all I need is a good song.

Here's a good one I think-A nice relaxing Classic Piece. (http://www.thefargos.com/mp3/01%20-%20Mozart%20Clarinet%20Concerto%20in%20A%20major,%20K.%20622,%20Adagio.mp3)

Vineyard

08-02-2007, 02:28

I fluxuate. Cut out funding in one area, supplement another area.

In this case, I gave my navy 'the shaft' and blostered my airforce.

They are hardly the 'mob'; the untrained pilots you think of them as.

If anything, your large navy brings questions as to your ability to fund your armed forces. Any idea how much a SSBN costs anually? And you have tons of the things.

At any rate, I want to know 2 things.

1). How you launched, then got around to the rear of my fighter wing as it approached the Baleric Isles

2). Which fighter wave you are attacking... 2 waves. 1st wave is of 4550 fighters, 150 bombers. 2nd wave is of 500 fighters. And remember, you cant sneak up on these suckers. Each one has its own radar system, along with Plenty of Chaff and Flares. The successrate you listed probably does not factor in Chaff.

At any rate, the armament of the craft depends entirly on what wave it is.

On top of that, taking a Rafele against a Eurofighter is like trying to run at a guy with an axe while he has a gun.

"What?"

http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/tech.php

Simply put, these pretty ratios account for aircraft preformance. For every 4.5 kills, a Eurofighter is lost against a Su-35 Super Flanker. Compared to the Rafele ratio of losing 1 aircraft for every Su-35 Super Flanker shot down.

On another note - how do you plan to get this division to the Isles? I found this to be laughable at best. One of the reasons I selected the Baleric Isles was due to its Isolation. The way I saw it, once the attack commenced, the Isles' garrison was pretty much set.

United Earthlings

08-02-2007, 16:27

No Sarcasm will be in this post. I'm serious.

We shall see, how good your pilots are. I got them in between a rock and a hard place. Having over a hundred SAMs suddenly come out of nowhere at you would scare the shit out of anyone. Added to that, I can fire more then one time, as most carry at least 6-8 missiles ready to fire within less then 6 seconds between each firing. Can you say Ambush, because your forces just walked into one.

I didn't know having 8 of them counted as a ton, but that's good to know 8 is a ton when I thought it was less then a dozen. Just out of curiosity- what does 50 make it? How about 18? Since, those are the numbers the United States Navy operates and Sharina has, with his being the latter of the number.

An Ohio Class Ballistic Missile Submarine costs an average of $50,000,000 USD dollars a year to operate. However, both the Triomphant Class and Vanguard Class are smaller then the Ohio Class and hence we probably cost around $30 to 40 million dollars a year to maintain and operate. Be even cheaper if, they remained in port.

See, unlike your Empire I don't have a closed economy which means I'm better able to afford things. Most of my nations also have a much better national economy then yours do. In, real life- your only two countries that even begin to match mine are Italy and Greece, the rest of your nations are on the low scale of having a good economy. Spain, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Belgium are some of the largest economies in the world. Even one of those nation's GDP is higher then most of the nations you control put together. Adding to that, the Navy didn't come about in one day. I did it over a 20-30 year period. I've been preparing for war against you, Sharina and any others for 10 plus years.

I saw a link somewhere, that confirms what I just said. I dig it up for you and put it in my next post.

1. For one, the Islands are closer to me then to you. This giving me more time in the Air and to responded. Two, getting over a 1,000 aircraft airborne takes hours-thereby giving me more time when best to responded. Three, I decided to intercept your second wave about 40 miles away from the Islands and have my SAMs Defense System take care of your 1st wave. So, by the time your second wave got near- I was ready and sprang my trap.

2. 2nd wave, actually it might be quite possible to sneak up on them. Remember, I'm attacking from above and behind. Adding the fact that the Eurofighter has some Stealth technology features. Also, the Ospreys can only go up to 26,000 ft and in fact the best speed and height for them is this-"maximum speed at 15,000 feet and 45 degress F=350 knots (565 km/hour)." Remember, the Radar of the plane is at the nose- so in all likelihood it can't see something coming up on it's six-the best place to be to kill someone. The Missile I fired to begin with is the AMRAAM. The missile is Radar guided and has a range of over 40 miles. So, your Chaff and Flares are not going to work as Chaff is designed to throw off IR guided missiles, not Radar guided.

Link about the AMRAAM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMRAAM)

3. Using your analog here's another way to put it. The guy with the axe comes out suddenly from behind some bushes and before the guy with the gun has time to turn around- the guy with the axe. Who by the way is expert trained with it throws it at the guy and before the guy with the gun knows it he is dead. An axe in the hands of a profession is just as deadly as a modern Pistol. You would be wise to remember that. The Rafale like any modern fight has strength and it has weaknesses. The whole point in dogfighting is to use your strength's and limit your weaknesses. So, I use both fighters- I know of both Strengths and Weaknesses- which I just put to good use. On, the other hand you only use the Eurofighter so you are kind of in the dark to the Rafales capabilities as you would be in real life.

So, those whole ratios account for aircraft performance are pretty useless. A Mig-29 in the hands of a good pilot could very well take out a F-22 or Eurofighter or Rafale. I know that sounds highly unlikely, but such is war.

4. How do you plan to get your entire Imperial Guard to the Balearic Isles? [Serious Question]

"What?" You thought you were the only one capable of Air Lifting your forces. You should add that part about you thinking that the Isles' garrison was pretty much set once you attacked it, into your IC post. An enemy capability has been underestimated many times. Battle of the Bulge, Tet, opening battles of world war one and the list goes on and on. Would add a nice sense of realism to it all.

Anything else I can answer for you?

Alif Laam Miim

09-02-2007, 23:14

I'm going to say this right now, only because I've seen Vineyard say it on numerous occasions, and it's seriously a grave fallacy:

Spending more money on something does not make it worth any more than what it really is.

It was once quoted by someone [I don't know whom, but it's rather famous] - saying, "An object is worth what people are willing to pay for it." Granted, if you have a good sum of money, you are more likely to procure better things, but simply spending more on an object does not make it inherently value, operate, function, or any sort of measurable action better. The only thing that it tells everyone is that you spend this much money on stuff. In war [as in many things], prudence is a very good virtue [as is patience, but we're stretching the limits of our virtuosity here...]; so simply spending more does not equate to being better.

Of course, it is indeed the general trend that the more you spend on a person, the more likely he/she is to perform better, but that more depends on what you're spending the money: training, equipment, supplies and logistics, even the slightest of research can influence how your investments perform [after all, you're spending a lot of money on your soldiers - it's really nice to see the investment pay off].

Can you say Ambush, because your forces just walked into one.

Umm... that's not an ambush. That's Vineyard not quite doing a rational thing and you trying to take advantage of the circumstance. On the one hand, he sacrificed having apparent naval superiority [instead opting to send them away, which might not be a bad idea for that location, but it certainly screws the homefront... and submarines don't count...] - he now has to travel across a long distance just to attack you without a real naval option to bring the support closer to the attack front. On the other hand, sending thousands of planes with little other support save themselves is pretty much suicide anyway, especially against a untested and undeterred position [I can't say well prepared, but it seems that no is contesting that the RUN could in fact have detected the air strike, although the cruise missile launches also kinda gives something away...].

A little tip - you guys are attacking territory; what you need to attack is material and equipment. The parcel of islands is not going to amount to much in the long run if neither side is able establish a clear military superiority in terms of equipment and material [not saying which plane or crafts are better than the other, because anything is probably better than nothing...] - in which case, the war will be largely indecisive and the losses unconvincingly staggering [think of Pearl Harbor - Japan sought to destroy the USA's naval capacity to retaliate, although they largely failed because the US Pacific Carrier Fleet was away; if they had succeeded in destroying the entire Pacific fleet based at Pearl Harbor, the strategic supremacy owned by Japan could have extended longer and more decisively than was employed that day]. As far as the military stats indicate, the Baleares are an empty group of islands that hold no strategic advantage in destroying [and maybe even owning at this point]. At this point, the RUN doesn't need to establish any division at the Balereas because if you decide to land any force there, he'll just pummel you from his coastline [unless you decide to change the war from a land grab to material supremacy] and your troops will likely have difficulties running around the islands.

But on one note, I'm finding it difficult as to how the RUN fighters would sneak up on the rear [which might be a tactically superior strategy, but it's also extensive and threatens your own lines by forcing to extend themselves]. I don't think that you'd want to approach from the rear anyway [because they're coming from the east, which means you'd have to travel east then back on them...]; a better approach would be the plain flank approach [i.e. Trafalgar style - of course, depending on their approach as well...] from the north and intercept them. Peripheral vision is somewhat limited in a jet [especially at high speeds], so you might pull off with as nice an advantage as a rear approach would and not necessarily extend your aircraft beyond what they would need to do.

=== My last note about money and stats ===

Don't always judge the superiority of a craft by what people claim it to be.

As UE says, the pilots are the more pivotal stat, and that unfortunately will change from person to person. A case in history - the Soviet air intervention in the Korean War started a series of dogfights between the MiG-15s and the F-86s. While both sides claimed that their aircraft were technically superior [with a wide array of kill ratios], the truth is hard to elicit and many people speculate that the F-86 was only marginally superior to the MiG15 [kill rates are still eskewed...]. Of course, the one thing that helped the Soviets was the fact that many of their pilots were seasoned WWII vets, whereas the UN forces were largely untested. So, you'll have to deal with those issues when they do arrive. As far as whose air force has a "seasoned" force, I'm begging to give neither party any advantage as there hasn't been a war between two jets of those types.

Also, thanks for the no sarcasm - it really does make my day when people are at least demonstrate a devoted interest to getting this done instead of joking about it.

Azaha

10-02-2007, 01:06

So where do I make my military declaration for this thread? ALM hasn't been online much so I am at a bit of a loss.

Alif Laam Miim

10-02-2007, 20:13

So where do I make my military declaration for this thread? ALM hasn't been online much so I am at a bit of a loss.

This is the place to post your Military deployments, after which I will add a link to the post in the IC thread as a reference for future details. When you're ready for it all, make the post and I'll add it into the collection.

Vineyard

11-02-2007, 08:25

No, no not really irrational. I sent about 450 initial fighters w/ 150 bombers. Those, when scattered over the Islands, may seem a bit irrational, but It really isn't. I have forced UE to reveal his position, and with Satilites Watching, the next wave of fighters will take out what my ICBM strike does not.

Woops, did I say missle strike?

Anyhow, sorry for the lack of activity over the past few days. Expect a post tomorrow.

Alif Laam Miim

14-02-2007, 16:43

*prods people into action... too much non-war action and too little actual war*

United Earthlings

16-02-2007, 01:06

*prods people into action... too much non-war action and too little actual war*

*Ouch, that hurt. Watch were you poke.

I'm working, I'm working... I plan to have another post up tomorrow.

If, everyone would stop declaring war on me for a minute. :headbang:

I'd get to them a lot sooner.

Azaha

16-02-2007, 02:07

Forces I am comitting.

8th Field Army
11th Marine Expeditionary Force
2 Infantry-Mechanized Corps from the 4th Field Army

Airforces-To come later when I dertermine where I will be placing my troops.

Naval forces-
CVN IRN Viraat
CVN IRN Viksharnt
6 Talwar Destroyers
3 Godavari Frigates
Misc(Troop transports, refueling, ammo, supplies.)

Hope this works for right now. If it seems to small or too big, lemme know...

Candistan

16-02-2007, 02:52

Is there any way I could get involved in this?

Kopparbergs

16-02-2007, 14:13

Is there any way I could get involved in this?
Of course! You might have noticed my mobilization IC. And you would have heard abouth the attack in the Caribbean. And more recently, you would definitley heard about Vineyard's attack towards RUN at the Balearic Islands.

Candistan

16-02-2007, 20:12

^yes, I did. But I can't think of a reason to go over there. Unless....UE! I need to buy that Island from you! hurry!

United Earthlings

16-02-2007, 20:18

^yes, I did. But I can't think of a reason to go over there. Unless....UE! I need to buy that Island from you! hurry!

If you want, I give Dominica to you for free. I didn't think you wanted it and well, I just then decided to hold onto it. I really have no need for it. It conflicts with my declaration of staying out of North America as Dominica is more in North America then South. I perfer the South.

Candistan

16-02-2007, 20:39

If you want, I give Dominica to you for free. I didn't think you wanted it and well, I just then decided to hold onto it. I really have no need for it. It conflicts with my declaration of staying out of North America as Dominica is more in North America then South. I perfer the South.

okay, cool. So should you make a post about it in the International and National Incedents thread?

United Earthlings

16-02-2007, 22:46

okay, cool. So should you make a post about it in the International and National Incedents thread?

If you want it, I suggest you make the post about it. I don't care how you claim it. I leave that free for you to decided. Example, if you want to RP that the soldiers rebelled on the Island (yes, I have a Regiment based in Dominica) and pledged their allegiance to your government I'm fine with that.

As, I said I leave you free to decided how you want to claim it. Leaves me less work so I can get to answer all these IC posts I need to. That way, all I have to do is edit it out of my fact book.

United Earthlings

16-02-2007, 22:47

OCC Comments for this post: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12337767&postcount=15)
1. Your using Satellites as UAVs. Check out goggle maps if you want to have an idea on how spy satellites work. All they do is take pictures, not live streaming video. To find my targets, you’d have to get the satellites in orbit above or near the location [This is called Line of Sight]-then you have to take the pictures-then send them back to Earth then have someone look over them. That all takes time. Anywhere from a few hours to a few days depending on how many people you assign to look over them and how many images there are. Finally, Spy Satellites are never placed in Geosynchronous orbit as you seem to imply. So, even with a large number of Satellites you would still never have 24/7 coverage of an area. You need to be aware of all that because it adds a sense of realism.

2. Italy uses the Storm Shadow not the TAURUS KEPD 350 Cruise Missile. While, they are pretty much the same Missile there are minor differences. Do a search on Wikipedia to see for yourself.

For the record-Spain and Germany use the TAURUS KEPD 350. While, Italy, France, the United Kingdom, Greece and the United Arab Emirates use the Storm Shadow. I don’t really care if you use the Taurus KEPD 350 just so long as your aware of the differences and the advantages that gives me.

3. Yes, I was incorrect. But, moving on I think I addressed your use of it pretty well. Even, I get things wrong- so thank you for pointing out my error about Chaff.

Sharina

17-02-2007, 00:19

Could ALM just TG me when he's ready to roll the results of my attacks? I'm still waiting for results on that before taking any further action.

Candistan

17-02-2007, 00:36

Okay UE, I made a post about it in the II/NI thread

Vineyard

17-02-2007, 18:12

Bit of a god mod there UE.... No. I fibed. Most of it is a god-mod.

1). You sorta pulled that AWACS aircraft out of your ass... no prior mention of it anywhere. No matter. AWACS is radar based. Meaning that "Lock-on" by your missles was shot to hell when the fighters released their chaff, making it a huge 'blur' on their radars. So essentially, while the missles were heading straight for the eurofighters, the eurofighter unleashed this massive cloud of chaff and veered right, meaning that the missles would most likly slam right into the chaff.

Unless your AWACS aircraft is a special aircraft that can read through heavy radar interference.

2). Interesting thing to note. Your aircraft went Mach 4. Very Impressive. And the Iris-T goes mach 3.

No, wait!

The max speed for an Eurofighter is Mach 1.3 and the max speed for a Rafale is 1.8. And I'm talking about the bare maximum.

Nice try.

3). Those satilites that took the google photos are not spy satilites... It would be naive to assume otherwise.I believe that those satilites are privatly owned satilites, not the high-grade satilites that the military operated.

Lets put it this way. If a government employee felt like it, he could read license-plate numbers off of cars all day using a satilite.

And it is very interesting that your AA defences are Mobile. For being so vast and mobile even, they are somehow not mentioned in your Military Dec... Damn good thing I anticipated it.

The satilites are tracking them, meaning that now that their positions have been given away, satilites are now tracking their movements, and guiding the Taurus cruise missles into the enemy targets directly. Sure, a 'Flak screen' would help a bit, but with all of your AA on the move, I am left to wonder what is throwing up the flak...

Oh, and Cruise missles can move around. Turn, dive, rise, etc. A little lesson I learned awhile back when i tried to launch ICBM's at someone... I forget who... Couldn't turn them because they wern't cruise missles.

Alif Laam Miim

17-02-2007, 19:30

Could ALM just TG me when he's ready to roll the results of my attacks? I'm still waiting for results on that before taking any further action.

Unless I've missed it, I'd like UE to post his defenses in the target areas so I can actually get an account of what preparedness they have for the first round, and how much damage would actually be caused by the bombing. If he doesn't post any, then I'm to assume that he has no defenses set and I will make my decision accordingly.

And for all to see oocly, the 8th Field Army listed in Azaha's deployment will be formed at New Delhi with deployment orders to be determined at an appropriate time. For reference, please do not TG me the locations of your troops, because then no one else knows about them oocly. If you want it to be secret, just say so.

I'll be off much of today, but I should have some free time tomorrow, so pray!!!

Azaha

17-02-2007, 19:34

I've already posted in the IC thread about my deployments and where they are going... sort of.

The Great Sixth Reich

17-02-2007, 19:36

(Minor nit-pick comment to UE: Your military declarations calls the Airbus A320 a "Regional Jet" (like a CRJ 700, I'm a assuming), which is not true. It's a short-to-medium range commercial passenger aircraft (Jet Blue Airways even flies it all the way from NYC to LA).)

I can answer a few of those:

Unless your AWACS aircraft is a special aircraft that can read through heavy radar interference. Remember that chaff is temporary and does not envelop the aircraft (after all, the only purpose is to mess up the missile, not AWACS aircraft), but that's the only problem with your first argument.

2). Interesting thing to note. Your aircraft went Mach 4. Very Impressive. And the Iris-T goes mach 3.

No, wait!

The max speed for an Eurofighter is Mach 1.3 and the max speed for a Rafale is 1.8. And I'm talking about the bare maximum.

Nice try.No. UE means the AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile has a speed of Mach 4, not the Rafale.

3). Those satilites that took the google photos are not spy satilites... It would be naive to assume otherwise.I believe that those satilites are privatly owned satilites, not the high-grade satilites that the military operated.

Lets put it this way. If a government employee felt like it, he could read license-plate numbers off of cars all day using a satilite.
Resolution is around 4-1.5 inches on military reconnaissance satellites (which is actually not that far away from Google Earth's resolution in some areas), but it is still not video; reconnaissance satellites take high-resolution still images that need to be downloaded and analyzed as UE said, not video.

Sharina

17-02-2007, 19:52

Resolution is around 4-1.5 inches on military reconnaissance satellites (which is actually not that far away from Google Earth's resolution in some areas), but it is still not video; reconnaissance satellites take high-resolution still images that need to be downloaded and analyzed as UE said, not video.

I do have the capacity for "live images" with KH-12 satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-12

Plus the improved Misty spy satellites (which I'm assuming has "live images" as it's only logical for it to improve upon the KH-12). The Misty launched in 1999, and a third (and final) generation should be in my possession by now. The article about the third generation Misty satellite was in 2004, more than 2 years ago so I'm assuming we have these sats up by now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56171-2004Dec10.html

Kopparbergs

17-02-2007, 23:11

is around 4-1.5 inches on military reconnaissance satellites (which is actually not that far away from Google Earth's resolution in some areas), but it is still not video; reconnaissance satellites take high-resolution still images that need to be downloaded and analyzed as UE said, not video.
Another thing I'm unsure about is the navigational possibilities for the reconnaissance satellites. I thought that satellites were placed in orbit, either focusing at the same spot constantly (as for a TV-satellite), or circulating around the globe making x number of passes each day.

This is what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofeq) says about the Israeli satellite Ofeq:
Ofeq's east-to-west orbit at 36 degrees inclination is phased to give optimal daylight coverage of the Middle East. Ofeq makes a half-dozen or so daylight passes per day over Israel and the surrounding countries, whereas U.S. and Russian spysats only get one or two passes per day from their higher inclination orbits.
As I've understood of Vineyards posts, he can move them around, as they were helicopters. Can you do that with satellites? I'm asking because I don't know, I'm not very good at satellites, just know what I recently read on wikipedia.

Vineyard, what type is your reconnaissance satellites? On Wikipedia there's a list by country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spy_satellite), but I cannot find any of your countries in that list.

Edit: I've read a bit further, and came to the conclusion that the closer to earth the satellite is placed, the more passes it makes per day. On the height 35,786 km (directly above the equator), they reach geostationary orbit which means they are moving at the same speed as earth, making them appear to stand still (making zero passes a day).

Vineyard

18-02-2007, 19:06

Like Helicopters? Oh god no. To 'move' satilites would be disasterous, as an orbit is essentially a state of constant 'falling' per-se. Its an object being dragged in by gravity, but instead of plummeting to earth, it is 'falling' at such and such an angle so it goes around the earth.

Have any of you held a GPS device? Its facinating. In this one little parcel of ground in New York, I had 3 strong satilite signals along with 1 'incomming' satilite with a weak signal. As time progressed (And im talking about 30 minutes here) The 4th satilite's signal got stronger while one at the other end got weaker. And it simply blew me away. The fact that this one little plot of land that I was on had 4 satilites in tis horizion. And those were just civilian GPS satilites!

On top of that, there are different 'levels' of orbit based on inclination, and as Kopparsberg's aptly mentioned, different altitudes which effect the Earth's pull on the satilite, effecting its 'falling' momentum.

Simply put, the Empire has, over the period of literally a hundred years, been chucking up a variety of satilites into Earth's orbit. "What type of satilite are you using?" Well, tell me the types of Satilites the Soviet Union, Italy, the former Yugoslavian countries, Spain, Germany, and Greece have,* and I you will have your answer...

*Note: I have owned many, many countries in the past, and those are the only ones that I have owned I think have the capability IRL to launch satilites.

EDIT: Just noted, I don't exactly have 1 particular satilite stationed over the Baleric isles per se. They are constantly going appearing and disappearing, switching responsibility off to another satilite before it disappears over the horizion. Hmmm... Example....

Satilite 1 will be disappearing over the horizon shortly, and it contacts a new satilite that is appearing over the horizion at the opposite side.

Satilite 1: Hey, satilite 2! I'm going to be taking off here for a bit, can you track these targets and guide these missles?

Satilite 2: Sure thing! Where about are they!

Satilite 1: Here, here, here and here.

Satilite 2: Ok, I see them.

Satilite 1: Tracking?

Satilite 2: Yep!

Satilite 1: You sure you got them?

Satiltie 2: Yep, I have established tracking and a link with the missles.

Satilite 1: Awsome! Ok, I gotta go!

Satilite 2: Oh, ok. I have full control now. I will see you later.

Alif Laam Miim

18-02-2007, 23:45

Actually, to clarify some issues with satellites...

1 - Most satellites used in the Americas are military satellites, with extensive grants offered by the DoD for their use by civilian markets [mostly used to finance their support and operations maintenance for the satellites]. Google Earth uses military photos, selectively chosen by DoD representatives [conveniently offering few details over US military installations at home and abroad]. And GPS uses military tracking satellites, similar [but not the same] to those used by Land Warrior system and naval and aerial tracking systems.

As far as I know, there are no satellites that can do a live streaming - an erroneous assumption given the presence of two live stream satellites apparently used by MI6 in [U]Goldeneye to survey Severnaya before and after the EMP strike.

2 - Satellites, as stated by Vineyard, are always falling. That's why when a government decommissions a satellite, they warn other governments about the satellite's trajectory, so as to avoid its falling path from making a disastrous re-entry [if people remember the MIR decommissioning, there was some debate as to how much would simply burn up in the atmosphere and how much would actually fall to the ground, and if so where and when it would do so...].

Anyway, the only real way that you can physically "move" a satellite is to reset its orbit altogether. But that's too expensive, and at times more dangerous than decommissioning. The solution is to put up more satellites to survey one region of the world [a common/uncommon quote - "The US government commissions more satellites to look down upon us than to observe the heavens" or something like that... the truth is that there is only 1 satellite devoted to the latter, while thousands, perhaps many more, are set to looking at Earth - which will suck, because we won't know what hits us if an alien fleet decides to knock on our door...]

3 - Satellite feed often takes hours [not much days, unless you're operating a less advanced network and operation], so while Vineyard wouldn't be able to monitor your positions acutely and in synchronous movement with the RUN's military movements, there is really no need to do so, because to move troops for a new position often takes days - and if your air fleet is set out to attack, Vineyard probably will not know where or when the planes will strike, but he can certainly know that they've moved out.

As is noted, much of satellite reconnaissance is deeply rooted into the human analysis subject, since most satellites only take pictures [some do other things...]. However, some analysis projects are also highly integrated into computer analysis, so aside from the human aspect of interpreting the information, there are numerous other factors that help to make satellite information more reliable and up-to-speed. Nonetheless, Vineyard will not likely be able to detect the RUN's aircraft launching from Spain to attack the Balearic strike force until the strike is done [actually, I don't know why you guys decided to start arguing about satellite capabilities... it's kind of random to me...]..

I hope that I'm staying on top of things that need to be kept on top. My apologies to everyone for not being as active as I could be [perhaps should be as well, but I don't believe that I should be anymore active than what I have been, with school and all...]

Samtonia

19-02-2007, 00:33

As far as I know, there are no satellites that can do a live streaming [unless Sharina's claim holds to be true...]

The only satellites that are thought to have live-streaming capabilities (and yes, it's one of those thoughts that's almost certainly true. Much like Israel having nuclear weapons) are those that are operated by the United States. Everyone else (nations that possess good satellites. So Russian stuff and most Western-European things) has the ability to directly download images, though not video- so the pictures that are taken can be seen almost instantaneously, but they're just that- pictures. Not streaming video.

The age of satellites dropping their film and then being analyzed is long past for technologically advanced nations- now it's turn-around time of a few hours at most, not days. If, you know, you fund your intelligence analysis adequately.

Alif Laam Miim

20-02-2007, 00:51

United Earthlings

20-02-2007, 03:44

Since, most of you addressed the issues I and Vineyard brought up, thank you BTW. I only need to chime in a few corrections and answer some questions you all asked me.

1). Specially directed towards Vineyard, but I take this time to address the following statement to everyone so I never have to again. If any of you, are going to call part of my post's God-Mods. Then you need to specify which parts. And when I mean specific, I mean specific as in I want the exact sentence. That way, I can answer your concerns you brought up as quickly as humanly possible. One last thing about God-Molding. We all have different levels of experience and knowledge in all things. I plan to use my knowledge in military matters to good effect for the Roleplay. I know at times it may seem like I'm God-Molding, but I am not. As much as I appreciate the comment, I am not God and hence I do get things wrong and make mistakes. I try my best to get things as correct as possible. Using ones greater understanding of a certain topic is not God-Molding. As, I said earlier we all have unique abilities and I just happen to have a hobby for all things military. Everything in my post was 100% accurate as I can make it. I even have multiple sources to back it up.

2). Actually, my Aircraft in question is a AEW&C or Airborne Early Warning and Control. AWACS is a little bit different but, in essence both are the same. For the record- AWACS stands for Airborne Warning and Control System. Your right, I sort of did pull it out of my ass. However, only sort of. I both do have it in my military declaration and did state it IC that the Aircraft was flying just out of your Radar range, but close enough to support the Fighters (the Aircraft in question being the EMB-145 Erieye (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/emb/)). I bought the production rights to the plane from DP a long time ago. Before he dropped out of course. Edit: I also told you I was going to be roleplaying fog of war into my roleplays to add a sense of more realism. Your not going to know where everything is at during any given moment and neither is mine. Fog of War is a really thing even on the current battlefield whether you admit it or not.

The Erieye radar provides 360 degrees of coverage with optimum performance of the radar over the 150 degree azimuthal sectors on each side of the aircraft. The radar can detect fighter aircraft at a range of 350km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment, in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. The radar has a sea surveillance mode.

Chaff is a form of Electronic Counter Measure or ECM. Add to that, your flying away from the chaff towards me. Also, adding that I have not only Airborne Radar tracking you, but Sea and Land as well. I stated IC of a few ships in the area firing missiles at you. So, yes- my Radar or in this case radars can read through heavy radar interference.

3). The Eurofighter has a maximum speed of Mach 2+ with the ability to supercruise at Mach 1.3+. As stated by you the Rafale has a top speed of Mach 1.8+.

4). Everyone else already addressed the Satellite issues. That being said, no one provided a confirmed source of any Satellite having the ability to view live images. Even, Sharina's source only said maybe. Since, not even the US military has come out and said it does- I doubt any current generation satellite does. In all Likelihood that will change in time, but for now it’s not realistic.

Edit: Movies or TV shows don't count as a source.

5). All Missiles can move around. Most of the missiles I fired to take down your cruise missiles were designed to do exactly that. Now, odds are I won't get them all but, given enough warning I could get most of them. And since, your firing these things from 40+ miles out (that's the distance I'm engaging you from the Islands) it's going to take awhile for them to get there at the speed they fly. They travel at around Mach 0.80~0.95. I estimated it would take them around 10-20 minutes to reach their targets depending on where the targets were.

United Earthlings

20-02-2007, 04:03

Unless I've missed it, I'd like UE to post his defenses in the target areas so I can actually get an account of what preparedness they have for the first round, and how much damage would actually be caused by the bombing. If he doesn't post any, then I'm to assume that he has no defenses set and I will make my decision accordingly.

Well, that's going to take time to specifically everything which Sharina also wouldn't know.

But, to keep the ball rolling. Depending where and what he plans to attack the short answer is this. Military Installations are of course going to be more heavily protected. Civilian installations are going to have little to no defenses from both Air and Sea attack. Anyway, as I stated early- I rather we roleplay are own losses within reason we all can agree with. So, as I'm doing with Vineyard- I'm going to roleplay my own losses. All Sharina needs to do is reply to my post I made about my involvement in the attack on the Cayman Islands and from their decided if he wants to go to war with me over something in all likelihood I know I didn't do.

After that if he is on the war path, all he has to do is post his declaration of war and his plan of attack with what and where and I'll responded to his attack. I know he has already posted a declaration of war, but I would like it re-posted in the Official War of America Thread to make it official. If, Sharina is sure he wants to go to war with me- I wish him the best of luck- because I will be showing him no mercy. Threaten the Republic at your own peril.

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(Minor nit-pick comment to UE: Your military declarations calls the Airbus A320 a "Regional Jet" (like a CRJ 700, I'm a assuming), which is not true. It's a short-to-medium range commercial passenger aircraft (Jet Blue Airways even flies it all the way from NYC to LA).

You sort of confirmed what is stated in my military declaration. NYC to LA is in the continental United States hence it's Regional and not international.

But, I got it's a Regional Jet from this site. So? See This Site (http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/#Regional_Jets)

Vineyard

24-02-2007, 01:23

Im back after a bit of a 'break'. Anyhow, here we go. As requested UE, your God mods are pointed out for you directly.

Moments after the enemy fired their Missiles, the 168 AMRAAM’s using their mid-course update provided by the fighters and AWACS aircraft (which was based in the area but, left out of range of the enemy radar) had locked onto the 250 fighters coming towards them. With the enemy fighters leaving their chaff far behind them, the protection offered by this action had been null and voided. "PITBULL" was heard over the radio as the fighters missiles had switched to their autonomous self-guidance phase. The Vineyardians had made a big mistake, that had played right into the hands of the Iberian Forces. With the two groups now in a head on engagement the missiles hit rate was now at it’s greatest.

Without warning, the missiles struck their targets. [OCC: Those missiles have a 90%+ success rate. Based on that, I calculated that 80% of those 168 missiles would hit their targets. Hence, where I get the following number of aircraft destroyed.] In a blip of a second, 135 enemy fighters had vanished from the radar. Though the initial wave had been decimated, there were still 250 IRIS-T Missiles coming their way. To deal with these missiles, the Iberian forces used the oldest trick in the book. In what could only be described as the perfection of coordination of maneuver, something all pilots in the Republic Air Force were taught. The entire 168 fighters made a complete 180 and headed back towards where they had come from. To the enemy, it probably looked like the entire force was retreating. But, their was method to this madness. As the range increased, it wouldn’t be long before the IRIS-T Missiles reached their 25 km ranged and ran out of energy.

Upon seeing this happen, the Iberian fighters did another complete 180 and returned the favor. With another radar lock on, the remaining 115 fighters were targeted.

"Fox Three". At the sound of those two words another 115 AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles, or AMRAAMs were on their way and traveling at Mach 4 it wouldn’t be long before they reached their targets. It was only a matter time. In less then a few minutes, the odds against the Iberian Forces in the Air had been greatly equaled.

<The Balearic Islands>
Having Mobile Anti-Air defenses now proved handy, with both long range and short range Air Defense Systems standing by- the incoming cruise missiles were locked into the guidance systems of the various Missile Defense Systems. The amount of missiles released was staggering, those cruise missiles that managed to get through the huge wall of flak and missiles crashed harmlessly into the countryside when they were unable to located their designated target or into the numerous decoys deployed throughout the Islands. If, the Vineyardians wanted to take out the AA defenses of the Iberian Forces-they were going to need to do more then launch a few cruise missiles against targets they weren’t designed to destroy. If, this is all the Vineyardians had, this war was going to be quick and end in complete victory for the Kingdom of Iberia.

However, the war was just getting started and who knew what else the Vineyardians had, then again-no one knew what the Iberian’s had planned. Soon, they would know-very soon.

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OCC Comments for this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12337785&postcount=132)

Ok. Where to begin?

1). The fighters banked right as the missles came closer to them, then left a chaff cloud. Logically speaking, the missles would've slammed into the chaff cloud and detonated, minus a few hitting the far right flank as they went right. Ok, you have a AWACS aircraft in the area. And yes, the cloud doesn't Last long. Its not as if the aircraft chaffed, went right, and hoped for the best as the missles were still far off? Oh, no. They waited until they were damn close.

2). Range cant 'increase' as the missles are screaming towards your fighters at double their speed. Asuming you took the complete 180 as you pescribed, the sheer g-forces of going from going to nearly nil to mach 1 is too much for the human body to bear.

3). You RPed my losses FOR ME. Thanks, but no thanks. Thats why I wanted a War Mod to determine losses, after weighing arguments on both sides. Same goes for my missles. Which brings me to my next point.

4). My satilites didn't pick up your instilations because you have 'decoys'. According to you at any rate. And the missles crashed into the country side to boot, AFTER being bombarded by missles and flak in a 'wall'. Few problems with this.

A). Cruise missles move around. Turn, etc.
B). Unless your 'decoys' also fired missles, my satilites wouldn't have counted them amungst the targets.
C). No mention of this MOBILE AA force. Anywhere. The fact that its mobile impresses me. Even more so than its uncanny ability to elude cruise missles.
D). I thought your AA instilations were moving around. What do you have that can throw up a 'flak and missle wall'? Do you have any idea of the sheer number of AA emplacements that would take? On top of that, besides knocking out a few cruise missles, there is little it can do. No efficent Missle Defence system exists there, to the best of my knowladge. Unless you pull Patriot Missle Launchers out of nowhere. No, wait thats right. They were already there. :rolleyes:

And against Cruise Missles those arn't even too effective. Flak cannons too. Antiquated systems though they are, they were effective against the old Bombers of WW2.

Beyond that, they can do little to a missle going at modern speeds.

5). Also, something interesting caught my attention.

You caught my Fighters, taking off from italy, on radar, but through the graces of god and other dieties, my radar stations in Sardinia never picked up your fighters? Never the less your magic AWACS, appearing wherever its needed.

Facinating, ain't it?

ALM or TGSR, a ruling please? I believe we have both exhausted our sides of this argument.

United Earthlings

24-02-2007, 10:20

Im back after a bit of a 'break'. Anyhow, here we go. As requested UE, your God mods are pointed out for you directly.

Ok. Where to begin?

1). The fighters banked right as the missles came closer to them, then left a chaff cloud. Logically speaking, the missles would've slammed into the chaff cloud and detonated, minus a few hitting the far right flank as they went right. Ok, you have a AWACS aircraft in the area. And yes, the cloud doesn't Last long. Its not as if the aircraft chaffed, went right, and hoped for the best as the missles were still far off? Oh, no. They waited until they were damn close.

2). Range cant 'increase' as the missles are screaming towards your fighters at double their speed. Asuming you took the complete 180 as you pescribed, the sheer g-forces of going from going to nearly nil to mach 1 is too much for the human body to bear.

3). You RPed my losses FOR ME. Thanks, but no thanks. Thats why I wanted a War Mod to determine losses, after weighing arguments on both sides. Same goes for my missles. Which brings me to my next point.

4). My satilites didn't pick up your instilations because you have 'decoys'. According to you at any rate. And the missles crashed into the country side to boot, AFTER being bombarded by missles and flak in a 'wall'. Few problems with this.

A). Cruise missles move around. Turn, etc.
B). Unless your 'decoys' also fired missles, my satilites wouldn't have counted them amungst the targets.
C). No mention of this MOBILE AA force. Anywhere. The fact that its mobile impresses me. Even more so than its uncanny ability to elude cruise missles.
D). I thought your AA instilations were moving around. What do you have that can throw up a 'flak and missle wall'? Do you have any idea of the sheer number of AA emplacements that would take? On top of that, besides knocking out a few cruise missles, there is little it can do. No efficent Missle Defence system exists there, to the best of my knowladge. Unless you pull Patriot Missle Launchers out of nowhere. No, wait thats right. They were already there. :rolleyes:

And against Cruise Missles those arn't even too effective. Flak cannons too. Antiquated systems though they are, they were effective against the old Bombers of WW2.

Beyond that, they can do little to a missle going at modern speeds.

5). Also, something interesting caught my attention.

You caught my Fighters, taking off from italy, on radar, but through the graces of god and other dieties, my radar stations in Sardinia never picked up your fighters? Never the less your magic AWACS, appearing wherever its needed.

Facinating, ain't it?

ALM or TGSR, a ruling please? I believe we have both exhausted our sides of this argument.

Welcome back. Thanks and now I will answer those things you think are God Mods, but in fact are not.

1. According to your last post your Aircraft banked hard right-fired off their chaff then turned hard left. By that last maneuver you turned your aircraft right into a head on engagement with the Missiles coming at you. That's when Missiles have their highest kill ratio. Adding to that, modern missiles are designed to be able to see through countermeasures whether they be chaff or flares. Modern Missiles including the type I fired at you the AIM-132 AMRAAM are very advance pieces of technology. These are why these weapons are consider first-shoot first-kill weapons. They were specify designed to be able to kill an enemy before they had a chance to fight back. As I said, these are highly advance pieces of technology.

2. By turning away from the Missile I thereby increase the time it takes to reach my aircraft from it's six thereby increasing the range between the Missile and me. So, yes range can increase. Here's a simple analogy- Have someone throw a football towards you why you are running away from them. Is the distance (range) from the person who threw the football increasing or decreasing? Think about that one and let me know what you come up with.

2A. True, that's why they invented something called the G-Suit. It allows fighter pilots to stand high Gs. Modern ones allow current pilots to take up to 10 Gs.

3. True, I roleplayed your forces for you and I admit that is a God Mod. However, I needed your losses to advance the story and since you didn't post any I had to take matters in my own hand. That's while I also left an occ message explaining how I calculated the losses so you could see how I come up with them and if you disagreed with them-they could by editing the post. Next time post your losses. I fired more missiles at you, so here’s your chance, because I'm not waiting on a war mod to decided ever detail. At the rate that would get resolved you might as well forget the war.

3A. Your Missiles ran out of energy. I'm engaging you in BVR fight. The AIM-132 AMRAAM has a range further out then the Iris-T. By, turning away I further increased the range between me, you and the Missiles you fired.

[B]4. I never said they didn't pick up my installations as it's oblivious they did for you to be able to fire Cruise Missiles at them and expect my AA sites to be destroyed. Close to the target, the missile bunts, climbing to an altitude intended to achieve the best probability of target identification and penetration. During the bunt, the nose cone is jettisoned to allow a high resolution infrared camera to observe the target area (the bunt enlarges the field of vision). The missile then tries to locate its target based upon its targeting information. If it can not, and there is a high risk of collateral damage, it will fly to a crash point instead of risking inaccuracy.

I'm assuming you know what collateral damage is. I have some of my AA sites near cities. Since the Missiles Programing can't be change in flight and there is a high risk of Collateral damage- the missile crashes. What isn't shot down I allowed to destroy my "decoys" and some of my real AA defenses.

4A. True and so do other types of Missiles. However, Cruise Missiles generally follow a straight path and usually take little in the way of tactical maneuvers.

4B. I left the "decoys" which look exactly like real AA sites in the previous sites the real Anti-Air Defenses were. It doesn't take long to move and redeploy Mobile AA.

4C. Since, you highlighted it in my last post. Where you get I didn't mention it from is beyond me.

4D. They moved to a new location after firing their first few salvos and before your cruise missiles hit their old location. It exist there now, I've been building up like you a highly advance Air Defense System. Furthermore, I deployed a nice number of these systems to the Balearic Islands as I knew that would be your first target. You have no idea how long I've been preparing for war against me. There were a lot of programs running and trust me as the war goes on you see more and more of them reveled. Sarcasm aside as I promised not to use that anymore. I don't have to pull them out of nowhere as you do that just fine as it is. So, you were correct-they were already based there. Spain also uses the MIM-104 Patriot.

Patriot is a long-range, all-altitude, all-weather air defense system to counter tactical ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and advanced aircraft. A new Patriot Advanced Capability (PAC-3) missile has increased effectiveness against tactical ballistic and cruise missiles, through the use of advanced hit-to-kill technology. A further contract for 156 missiles was received in February 2005. Of these missiles, 32 are for the Netherlands and 16 for Japan under Foreign Military Sales (FMS) agreements.-You were saying something about them not being effective?

Taken directly from my military declaration. These are all of my Air Defense Equipment I use.
Gepard anti-aircraft tank
M167 Vulcan
Oerlikon Light Anti-Aircraft Artillery Cannon 35/90 ARMS SYSTEM
Bofors L/70 Light Anti-Aircraft Artillery Cannon 40/70 ARMS SYSTEM
Spada 2000 Advanced Air Defense System
Patriot Missile Air Defense System
FIM-92A Stinger
RBS 70 Short-Range Anti-Aircraft Missile
Roland short-range air defense missile system
Crotale NG Multi-mission air defense missile system
Mistral air defense missile system
NASAMS (Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System)

The Iberian Kingdom is specify using the Oerlikon and Bofors light Anti-Aircraft Artillery, the Spada 2000 Advanced Air Defense System, the NASAMS, the Mistral and the FIM-92A Stinger.

There not Flak Cannons. And those Cannons being radar guided makes them much more effective then the 40's equipment your thinking of them as. Hell, even back then them Flak Cannons were able to shot down V1s.

5. No, UCF caught them on radar as they flew over the Tyrrhenian Sea on their way towards the Baleares Islands.. I have an alliance with him remember and hence have contacts with him. My people just simply passed on the information.

Considering my planes took off inside Mainland Spain, which is far outside your radar converge in Sardinia. I'd say, no your radar stations never picked them up. Furthermore, where I decided to engage your fighters was within my radar coverage and at the same time beyond yours in Sardinia. Radar does have range limits you know-hence my use of shipborne and airborne radar to extended my coverage. Smart move on my part don't you think.

Welcome to modern war my friend. It is indeed fascinating. I've been into Military History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_History) for many years now. It's one of my hobbies. So, don't be surprised if I happen to know more about the subject then you do. I'm just happening to use that knowledge to my advantage in the Roleplay. So, what happens to seem like a God Mod to you is actually not. If, you've been into military history as long as I have been you also have a good understanding of it. That includes military equipment and how it works. You should see all the books I have on the subject.

We all have our passions my, just happens to be all things military. To each their own.

Alif Laam Miim

25-02-2007, 00:50

my question - where are the posts to back up the claims?

Vineyard

25-02-2007, 01:13

Alif Laam Miim

25-02-2007, 01:37

3). Thankyou, and while your calculations are interesting, they are done under false premises. And yes, I didn't post my losses because I was waiting for a war-mod to rule. As was agreed prior to the war. But, since you have a habit of ignoring the mods (Namely TGSR and his rulings regarding Sweden and Bangladesh), I will do the honors of ignoring your 'calculations'.

@ UE:
I actually read that post, and while I too was amused by it, no matter how you say it, it's a godmod.

You cannot, can never, can not ever, calculate another person's losses.

So those 135 lost planes are up to Vineyard to decide, not you.

And as far as calculating losses - I've got one person who says that they can be sensible and calculate their own losses, and I've got one person who says that I/TG6R should be calculating losses. Definitively, I'm calculating the results from Sharina's attack, but I need to know if I'm going to be calculating losses for more than just that, because otherwise, I'll be doing as I have been [minus the school part...]. If I am going to be calculating results, I'm going to do more than what I have been doing [within reason of my school activities as well...].

4). Satilites pick up your missles being fired. Check.

They were being tracked through Infared. Check.

Satellites are useful, but then again, they can distinguish that missiles have been fired - the chance of a satellite picking up the actual launching is quite slim. Your best bet is to have radar capabilities, but judging by your posts, the only radar you have is in your aircraft, and satellites cannot do adequately enough to help your fighters. As I have said before, the air strike is an ill-conceived strike, and the advantage lies heavily with the defense. That said, it doesn't give UE a license to destroy everything that you have sent at him, because he has made some mistakes as well, and will perhaps make some more mistakes to your advantage.

Oh, and the Patriot Missle System has something like a 5% success rate.

ADA systems are not meant to counter missiles, although they can certainly double as that. ADA systems are meant to counter against planes, which are bigger, slower, and less tactile than missiles. Essentially, a missile strike is going to have a high success rate against static targets [moving targets present a mobile challenge and depends partially on the skill of the pilot, and secondarily on the programming capability of the missile to alter its course to adjust to a new target frame]. SO anyway, ADA systems are basically countering missiles with missiles - and its much more difficult to track a missile, contrary perhaps to popular belief [which makes the American anti-ballistic defense all the more intriguing, since if proven to be efficient, the USA and its strategic allies would be nearly invulnerable to missile strikes, relative to average other countries - a reason why Russia protests their recent plans for installation [or installation...] in Eastern Europe...].

So, that said, I hope that these clarify some of the points to consider. If you need losses, tell me and I will calculate them [not noww of course!!!]

Granate

25-02-2007, 01:42

Yes. Modern warfare. I dare say that while Military History is useful in respects to men, their vices, and strategy, I find it laughable how many people use history and directly translate it to modern times. I.E. Granate's 'Blitzkreig' accross Turkey, and your usage of 'Radar-guided FLAK cannons!'

Why did you bring me into this? I already defended my reasons for that, but you didn't have the time to answer back. So I am not going to repeat myself.

Alif Laam Miim

25-02-2007, 20:05

Why did you bring me into this? I already defended my reasons for that, but you didn't have the time to answer back. So I am not going to repeat myself.

If this is something outside of the actual Americas conflict, please don't add it here. I do respect your opinion, but it's hard enough to sort through pertinent materials already with as much argument has already passed - a simple direct link to the OOC thread would be alright, since it would more likely belong there better.

Secondly, @ UE and Vineyard - please stop making personal references. I know I've said in some fashion before, but you guys are making this far more personal than what it needs to be. "I am a student of military history" does not add to the argument, since the only thing you're adding is "I know more than you do about this topic, so don't even try to bounce me" - that statement itself begs for a response that I have yet to see manifest in our ooc comments [at least fully...]. I could say that I am a student of military history as well, but I don't want to say that - (1) because I am a lousy student of military history compared to some other people and (2) it doesn't matter if I am or am not. You guys should be arguing facts and theoretical applications [which has thankfully been the majority of our comments] - adding personal expertise tends to detract from the whole equation, and while all of us may do it at one point or another, links, citations, and other primary sources will help us better.

That said, I'm waiting for the posts that indicate the change of position of troops that have been apparently been mentioned by the RUN. If it is in a post that I have seen already, please elucidate the actual declaration.

And for future reference, I want ALL [100% - no exceptions!] troop movements to be at least OOCLY visible for ALL to see. That way, when this stuff comes about, the only thing we will need to do is cite the post - problem solved. If you did not move it, it has not moved - even for intelligent reasons. This is because I have seen several posts on both sides that indicate a nebulous coordination of troop positions, and while I have generally accepted them as valid, I have found that people have been using that to skew the troop movements and such - which means, I will be required absolute troop positions [to at least within the vicinity of a major city, better if we had actual satellite coordinates, but I don't expect everyone to go about that business, because that's too detailed for our purposes...].

In any case, I will post results to Sharina's attacks on the RUN soon. If the RUN can give me more detailed ADA deployments around all major civilian and military targets in Argentina, Venezuela, the Netherlands, Spain, and Portugal. That would be all for now...

Candistan

25-02-2007, 20:45

Well, I wanted to get involved in this somehow, so I guess I will let the RUN have a base on Dominica for their troops since without them (RUN), I wouldn't have Dominica in the first place.

Alif Laam Miim

26-02-2007, 16:20

Well, I wanted to get involved in this somehow, so I guess I will let the RUN have a base on Dominica for their troops since without them (RUN), I wouldn't have Dominica in the first place.

or you can declare war :rolleyes: ...

but seriously you guys, we shouldn't getting involved in this unless it means some security crisis for your country. This was supposed to be between the RUN and Sharina, but since then, it has expanded to nearly the entire world [minus RSA the most part...]. Bearing in mind that war tends to have a negative impact on the economic status of your country [especially on the losers], you want to accurately and sensibly calculate the risks, the costs, and the benefits of going to war.

United Earthlings

27-02-2007, 11:15

1). Terrible misunderstanding apparently, regarding the fighters, They Banked right, went 'aways' THEN banked left, safely out of the Missle's way.

2). And yes, while true that the missles have a shorter range than your Missles, my fighters had turned into the fray, if you remember correctly. meaning that by the time you launched your missle, they were at max range, true. But as my fighters closed in, the distance was reduced as your missles and fighters headed for my oncomming fighters, It would take mere moments for the two aircraft groups to be within range. Now, the real issue here is how far away your aircraft are, and if my missles can indeed reach them.

1. If, the aircraft take mere moments and they are only traveling at Mach 1.8. Then the Missiles I fired would take even less then mere moments. I don’t proceed to know how fast a missile traveling at Mach 4 will cover 40 miles, that being the distance I fired the missiles. But, a guess would be less then three minutes giving you little to no warning. Adding the fact that you first fired cruise missiles, then deployed chaff and then did a high G turn-by the time your pilots completed all those moves they would be dead. This of course all being before you fired any missiles, you would first have to find out where the strike came from and direct the Missile towards me. And remember, the IRIS-T is not radar guided, but uses infrared (heat) as it’s guidance. I see you also left out that I also did a turn after shortly firing the Missiles and doing it’s mid-flight updated thereby further increasing the range between me and you.

Upon seeing your missiles run out of energy, I did another high G turn and fired a second salvo from between a distance of 25-30 miles depending on the conditions, still well out of range of the IRIS-T which has a max range of 15.5 miles or 25 kilometers.

Since, your not aware the AMRAAM AIM-120 not only has robust immunity to countermeasures (which is what chaff is, a form of countermeasure.), but the ability to perform high G turns as you said so yourself all Missiles have the ability to turn. I’ve already told you this all before, but since you don’t believe me which is just as well. Why I didn’t think of doing this before is beyond me.

Source 1: http://www.raytheon.com/products/amraam/

Another vital part to note is your magic 'lock-on' missles. Once they are locked on, they somehow (Magically) glide into their targets.

Unless you consider Radar magic, then yes it did magically glide into their targets. Since, you seem not to understand how radar works might I recommend you read this. And if your still confused, then well your on your own.

Source 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

Again, I must reiterate the chaff used. It is deploied, the Missle's sensors are usless, the AWACS aircraft at the distance sees what looks like a large blurb or flair on their radar, and my fighters veer off. Now, noting that you fired all at once, the one chaff burst should've been enough. But apparently, being 'locked-on' means that the missles just hit their targets. That simple.

Source? It wouldn’t happen to be World War 2 would it? If so, then you know how much you hate it when “I dare say that while Military History is useful in respects to men, their vices, and strategy, I find it laughable how many people use history and directly translate it to modern times.”

As you wish because I need a good laugh. It’s good for the soul. LMAO! :D
Thanks, I needed that. Moving on...

2A). And I know what G-suits are. But it is hardly impervious to G-forces. As a matter of fact, a critical part of a pilots training is to learn to flex your muscles, depending on which way you are turning. I.E. If the fighter goes up, the pilot flexes the muscles in his legs to push the blood back up into the body, etc.

Good, you answered your own question. Now you know how my pilots survived.

3). Thankyou, and while your calculations are interesting, they are done under false premises. And yes, I didn't post my losses because I was waiting for a war-mod to rule. As was agreed prior to the war. But, since you have a habit of ignoring the mods (Namely TGSR and his rulings regarding Sweden and Bangladesh), I will do the honors of ignoring your 'calculations'.

If you don’t mind me asking, why are you waiting on a war mod? Prove where I have ignore the ruling of TGSR in respect to Sweden and Bangladesh. As per agreement, the roleplay for them won’t take effect until after the war ends-I.E. they won’t become official. As such, I won’t claim them until the war with all who are involved ends. That said, attack them at your own risk as a lot has changed since those rulings. Finally, your free to ignore my calculations as even I admit it was a God Mod. The fact still remains though that you have not posted any losses, which your are 100% certain to take. If, you are unable or unwilling to post your own losses. God Mod or not, I will be doing it to continue the story or else having to complete ignore you as I can no longer roleplay with you since you don’t want to play fair or at least semi-fair.

Meaning that while the missles were in flight, they (as with all true cruise missles) possesed the ability to turn. Being satilite guided, they made the necessary adjustments. Now, these 'adjustments depend on the following:

What these AA decoy sites did. Did they move to the origional location of the AA launches, or were they there to begin with? And are they running, or have a similar heat signature? If so, then I can see why the missles would harmlessly impact the Decoy sites.

They were set up at the original location and gave off the same signals, both infrared and electromagnetic.

Now, i found this to be almoast laughable. Yes, the V-1s could be taken down by AA fire. But they never were. I believe the only real V-1s that were shot down were via fighter planes. And despite that, the missles of today are hardly V-1s. And, to boot, 'Flak' is produced when a shell explodes at a set altitude. Now are your flak cannons automatically adjusting to the differing altitude and setting the shell's detonation at the missle's projected altitude?

“In mid-1944 the V-1 threat was drastically reduced by the arrival of two very effective electronic aids for anti-aircraft guns requested by AA Command, both developed in the USA by the MIT Rad Lab: radar-based automatic gunlaying (using the SCR-584 and other radars), and the proximity fuze.

These electronic aids arrived in quantity from June 1944, just as the guns reached their firing positions on the coast. 17% of all flying bombs entering the coastal 'gun belt' were destroyed by guns in their first week on the coast. This rose to 60% by 23 August and 74% in the last week of the month, when on one day 82% were shot down. The rate improved from one V-1 destroyed for every 2,500 shells fired initially, to one for every 100.”-Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb)

Yes, as I said they are radar guided and are highly ECM resistant.

Source 3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun

Source 4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_35_mm_twin_cannon

Source 5: http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?fid=1552&lang=3&pdb=1

Yes. Modern warfare. I dare say that while Military History is useful in respects to men, their vices, and strategy, I find it laughable how many people use history and directly translate it to modern times. I.E. Granate's 'Blitzkreig' accross Turkey, and your usage of 'Radar-guided FLAK cannons!'

Oh, and the Patriot Missle System has something like a 5% success rate.

Source? For comparison here’s two that state otherwise.

Source 6: http://www.raytheon.com/products/patriot/

Source 7: http://www.cdi.org/issues/bmd/Patriot.html

One last thing, for Goodness sake use a dam spell checker! I don’t know where you come from, but “origional” is not a word. I’m sure you have a spell checker on your computer, but incase you don’t the message telegrams allow you to spell check. It takes less then a minute to spell check even a post as big as a page or two. Your laziness is no excuse. It’s hard to understand someone when your trying to figure out what they meant.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ UE:
I actually read that post, and while I too was amused by it, no matter how you say it, it's a godmod.

You cannot, can never, can not ever, calculate another person's losses.

So those 135 lost planes are up to Vineyard to decide, not you.

Whose post, mine or Vineyard’s? Yes, I agree-just when is he going to do that as I expected him to have it in his post and it wasn’t. Make a long message shorter, next time I just ask before I post. This headache has not been worth that one single line.

And as far as calculating losses - I've got one person who says that they can be sensible and calculate their own losses, and I've got one person who says that I/TG6R should be calculating losses. Definitively, I'm calculating the results from Sharina's attack, but I need to know if I'm going to be calculating losses for more than just that, because otherwise, I'll be doing as I have been [minus the school part...]. If I am going to be calculating results, I'm going to do more than what I have been doing [within reason of my school activities as well...].

I’m sorry, but this part of your post I found funny as hell. “You cannot, can never, can not ever, calculate another person's losses.. Unless you have suddenly become a hypocrite in the space of a few seconds, you just contradicted yourself all within the same post. That my friend is truly impressive. ”Definitively, I'm calculating the results from Sharina's attack, but I need to know if I'm going to be calculating losses for more than just that.”.

I don’t know if it’s me, but you just supported God Molding and yet at the same time, state no one could under any circumstances ever God Mod. Shouldn’t it be Sharina who calculates his own losses? Since, your going to be now calculating his losses are you also going to start roleplaying to for him? Because, both are the same thing- God Molding. At which point why is Sharina even needed as you are now roleplaying for him.

Here’s a nice idea, how about Sharina post his attack in the Official IC thread and I’ll response to his attack, at which point he can post what damage he took and his next course of action. Which, thereby will allow me to response. It couldn’t hurt to give it a try, it has after all worked before.

ADA systems are not meant to counter missiles, although they can certainly double as that. ADA systems are meant to counter against planes, which are bigger, slower, and less tactile than missiles. Essentially, a missile strike is going to have a high success rate against static targets [moving targets present a mobile challenge and depends partially on the skill of the pilot, and secondarily on the programming capability of the missile to alter its course to adjust to a new target frame].

Actually, a lot of ADA systems are designed to do exactly that- Counter high speed Missiles. And in case you haven’t noticed in the past few years, computers are much more advanced and are getting more advanced every year. Hitting a fast moving jet and hitting a fast moving Cruise Missile is about the same as difficulty is concern. I know that’s hard to believe, but it’s true. Most Missiles travel below the speed of sound or Mach 1 and generally follow a fixed course. A plane on the other hand can travel beyond Mach 1 and in most cases exceed Mach 2. A plane can also perform very extreme maneuvers that modern Missiles are now just these past two decades able to match. Take for example this maneuver. A modern jet, say the F/A-18 Hornet is flying at 6,000 ft on a straight course. Suddenly, it dives straight towards the ground and then in a few seconds pulls completely out of the dive and heads completely upwards back to 6,000 ft whereby it does a barrel role. If, anyone been to an air show they’ve seen some examples of these type of High G/Negative G maneuvers. Even I know of no missile that can match the capability of a modern fighter jet. Any modern fighter jet can evade a incoming missile if given enough warning. But, as modern missiles usually travel at Mach 3 to Mach 5- a pilots warning time is usually little to none.

Alif Laam Miim

27-02-2007, 16:19

Whose post, mine or Vineyard’s? Yes, I agree-just when is he going to do that as I expected him to have it in his post and it wasn’t. Make a long message shorter, next time I just ask before I post. This headache has not been worth that one single line.

Your post regarding the 135 lost aircraft:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12337767#post12337767
Without warning, the missiles struck their targets. [OCC: Those missiles have a 90%+ success rate. Based on that, I calculated that 80% of those 168 missiles would hit their targets. Hence, where I get the following number of aircraft destroyed.] In a blip of a second, 135 enemy fighters had vanished from the radar. Though the initial wave had been decimated, there were still 250 IRIS-T Missiles coming their way. To deal with these missiles, the Iberian forces used the oldest trick in the book. In what could only be described as the perfection of coordination of maneuver, something all pilots in the Republic Air Force were taught. The entire 168 fighters made a complete 180 and headed back towards where they had come from. To the enemy, it probably looked like the entire force was retreating. But, their was method to this madness. As the range increased, it wouldn’t be long before the IRIS-T Missiles reached their 25 km ranged and ran out of energy.

Also, if you're going to complain about someone spelling poorly, you might as well check your own . But then again, unless the spelling error is grievous [i.e. my fighters are bombed your ports! versus my fighters are bombing your ports... and even then], try to avoid critiquing spelling when the debate is mostly supposed to be substantive. It leads me to believe that this RP is not as much worth to you as it is to others, that you would argue over trifles instead of what really matters.

I’m sorry, but this part of your post I found funny as hell. “[I]You cannot, can never, can not ever, calculate another person's losses.. Unless you have suddenly become a hypocrite in the space of a few seconds, you just contradicted yourself all within the same post. That my friend is truly impressive. ”Definitively, I'm calculating the results from Sharina's attack, but I need to know if I'm going to be calculating losses for more than just that.”.

I don’t know if it’s me, but you just supported God Molding and yet at the same time, state no one could under any circumstances ever God Mod. Shouldn’t it be Sharina who calculates his own losses? Since, your going to be now calculating his losses are you also going to start roleplaying to for him? Because, both are the same thing- God Molding. At which point why is Sharina even needed as you are now roleplaying for him.

Here’s a nice idea, how about Sharina post his attack in the Official IC thread and I’ll response to his attack, at which point he can post what damage he took and his next course of action. Which, thereby will allow me to response. It couldn’t hurt to give it a try, it has after all worked before.

As far as the "hypocrite" response, I'm only amused by it because I understand that there is a clear misunderstanding - but please do consider a less provocative response. A better way to say the same thing:

Umm, ALM... you do realize that you calculating Sharina's losses somewhat contradicts your own statement?

Whereas the "hypocrite" response tends to make me bash heads and teeth [not literally], the latter does elicit the same intention of causing self-review. Of course, that comment may seem hypocritical, because I just recently posted a "cannot, can never, can not ever" reply that altogether seems in the same light, but noting the terms used, I can't say that I was harsh - perhaps blunt, but then that's a different deal. If it is hypocritical, then I need to take a hike for a while...

But anyways, even if you wanted to elicit the bashing of heads and gnashing of teeth, I can't do that to my computer. And while I am devoutly interested in resolving this war as soon as possible, I don't want to do that, because that's mean for one, and when it comes down to making an argument, I really don't know you, so bashing a stranger is just impolite. So I might manifest my little anger tirade into a flaming post - in which case, 3000 other people can see that I've flamed, and seeing no apparent connotation [outside of the quote], decide to flag me [flag to the mods...], and I get the boot from NS for being angry. If that is your strategy, please continue - it's doing marvelously! But otherwise, try to maintain some "diplomatic" dialogue and refrain from overtly flagging anyone [especially the other RPers, because they're the ones who are going to be working with you]. NOW, if you are extremely offended by what I've said and feel a great need to express your strong sentiments ["hypocrite" - while not vulgar - is still a strong sentiment], please TG me instead, that way it at least stays out of the mainstream and we can have a private vulgar exchange [j/k] - but hopefully more so on the positive side, I hope that this little explication of my qualms with the word does not offend you, because then I just proven myself to be counterproductive [as what happened with Bedou...]. So again, be mindful of the words you say.

>>> But back to the pertinent material - I mention this only because I was specifically asked to do so in advance of these debates. As far as I have known, I was calculating the losses from Sharina's attack, which is the primary reason why I have been asking for your defensive stats, so Ii can better gauge the damage to be inflicted on both sides. If this has at any time changed in the intervening weeks, please let me so I can stop worrying about it.

Additionally, as far as I know, that attack is the only one that I was specifically asked to calculate. I'd actually prefer not to calculate, because that means people get to blame me for them losing a war (which may or may not be true, but then war, all wars must have their losers, even if it means everyone...). And besides that, I don't want to waste your time for having to wait for me to calculate results. BUT, if it is decided that no one can agree to anyone else's losses, and that I am needed to calculate the losses, I will do so, as has been mandated to me - although I personally look at a war mod as simply a moderator of debate, not really an active participant in the actual fighting et cetera...

Actually, a lot of ADA systems are designed to do exactly that- Counter high speed Missiles. And in case you haven’t noticed in the past few years, computers are much more advanced and are getting more advanced every year. Hitting a fast moving jet and hitting a fast moving Cruise Missile is about the same as difficulty is concern. I know that’s hard to believe, but it’s true. Most Missiles travel below the speed of sound or Mach 1 and generally follow a fixed course. A plane on the other hand can travel beyond Mach 1 and in most cases exceed Mach 2. A plane can also perform very extreme maneuvers that modern Missiles are now just these past two decades able to match. Take for example this maneuver. A modern jet, say the F/A-18 Hornet is flying at 6,000 ft on a straight course. Suddenly, it dives straight towards the ground and then in a few seconds pulls completely out of the dive and heads completely upwards back to 6,000 ft whereby it does a barrel role. If, anyone been to an air show they’ve seen some examples of these type of High G/Negative G maneuvers. Even I know of no missile that can match the capability of a modern fighter jet. Any modern fighter jet can evade a incoming missile if given enough warning. But, as modern missiles usually travel at Mach 3 to Mach 5- a pilots warning time is usually little to none.

I would personally add the addendum - "are being designed." The USA is the only country that claims to have a good (good = 100%) missile defense in place - and all others are as equally susceptible to missile strikes.

Consider the recent Israeli incursion into Lebanon, against Hezbollah. Hezbollah fired at least 3900 rockets into Israel. Noting that while Israel maintains one of the most sophisticated missile defense systems available, of those rockets that were launched, 972 reached targets [according to Wiki - which accounts for 23% of the total missile launches]. Granted, Israel did knock a large number of rockets - but we must also acknowledge that not every rocket reached the "right" target. And even as Hezbollah's rockets were not the most sophisticated available, they clearly demonstrated the offensive advantage to using missiles as a weapon, especially against civilian targets.

23% might not sound like much, but considering that Hezbollah had no real control over the rockets once launched, and that Israel had clear opporunities at times to down the rockets, the fact that 23% reached their targets of all possible targets [that is not, uninhabited terrain] is rather disappointing.

However, simply because I mentioned that ADA systems are not specifically designed for missiles [I ought to distinguish between ADA and ABD... ADA - air defense artillery; ABD - anti-ballistic defense], it does not entail that it is impossible to use ADA units for missile defense - it is only unlikely that an ADA unit will be successful in downing a missile. And ABD is still a growing field to defense technology - so while I probably did overstate the claim that missile defense systems are non-existent [I don't think that I said that but maybe I did...], the missile defenses of today are not enough to counter a clear and defined missile strikes, especially with autonomic trajectory controls and more precision than those used by illicit militia organizations [or terrorists, if you prefer it as such].

I've spent too much time talking about things that are not pertinent to the war - something's dearly wrong...

Sharina

28-02-2007, 00:14

I'm going to speak my mind and give my 2 cents (3 actually as I'm a mod of Earth V).

First of all, I specifically asked ALM to refree the losses in the war between myself and UE, because of several reasons.

1. A huge reduction in insane bickering, whining, and moaning about why things can and can't happen, can and can't work, etc. Vineyard and UE has been arguing about missiles and planes for like 2 RL weeks, and that is seriously holding up the RP. I do not want to end up arguing with UE for the next 3 RL months about US made equipment VS European made equipment, troop deployments, losses and victories, etc. That will only add to the un-necessary delay in the already delayed war.

2. If a war is refreed, it allows the war go go along much more quicker and smoothly, without "OMG! IGNORED!" bullshit. I speak from experience- I have been involved in E20 and Diaspora RP's and Galveston Bay (the refree) made sure the wars there went along without 2, 3, 4+ week delays because of OOC bickering. In E20, we had four world wars, involving at least 6 or 7 players minimum, yet each of the world wars were resolved in two to three RL weeks. On the other hand, this single war in Earth V has been "hung up" for nearly 3 months!

3. I have been waiting for 3 RL months to start a few RP ideas I had for my nation in Earth V, but can't do so until this war is resolved. How much longer do I have to wait for this war to finally be resolved? April? May? Or even August? No thanks.

Second thing is this. I've noticed a few people are dropping out of Earth V, and I think it's because of this war "hang up". The other Earth V players might feel like they're unable to RP until this war is finished- I remember Braska stating on a couple of occasions he's waiting for this war to finish, so probably are a few other players.

Finally, this war needs to be finished ASAP so that everybody can get back to their RP'ing or new ideas or such. I'm not keen on ret-conning this war, because it will set a bad precedent- because then the next time someone initates a war, they'd probably try to do the same thing (arguing for several RL months) to get a ret-con and therefore weasel out of a war that way.

The bottom line is this. I'm getting quite frustrated at the delays in the war, and I feel that it is a total necessity to get this war concluded ASAP, not just for the players involved, but for Earth V as a whole and for other Earth V RP's to progress onwards.

United Earthlings

28-02-2007, 01:32

Sharina

28-02-2007, 02:38

Response to Sharina specially and in general to the rest of the members of Earth V.

Waiting....

and

waiting...

Post a reply in the main thread, if it's directed towards me I'll reply.

I posted a reply in response to you blaming me for the attack on the Cayman Islands.

You have yet to reply to that or start your war against me, officially anyway. Yes, I know you posted a war declaration in that other thread. I was talking about posting a nice and updated one (adding the issues we discussed to your post) you could maybe be so kindly to post in the officially IC war of the America thread you or ALM was so kindly to create. I forget which, one of you started the thread.

If your that in a hurry you might as well forget the war. If, what has been happening the past few months is any indicitation (yes, I take the blame for some of the delays) this war is going to be long and drawn out. As you said, three months and it's yet to even hardly get started. BTW, your not the only one who wants to move on to other things.

Last thing, whenever you post your reply. I responced and then if [as long as your aware that what ALM is doing can be viewed as a God Mod] you so choose ALM can calculate your losses from the attack. I will still be calculting my own losses and yes I fully plan to take them-if you roleplay a good attack I even plan to take heavy losses. I think the quality of the Roleplay should determine the amount of losses. That's quality not quanity. If it's short and good-it works for me.

As ALM said-troop movements, deployment locations those type of things are a given for a good IC post. Just saying I'm launching 300 bombers and 200 fighters at you is pointless. Everything comes from somewhere. For example, the D-Day lands orginated in Southern England.

I have made it clear where my aircraft and troops are coming from such as New England, a few in Greenland, troops moving in from Colombia, cruise missiles coming in from the various Caribbean islands, and so forth.

I have already declared war, plus officially started the war aganist UE / RUN by sending out my aircraft, navy, and ground forces as evidenced in the second half of that war declaration post (with the "Engage" command). Thus, the RUN's appeal would have occurred *after* I have already declared war aganist it.

Therefore, everybody knows at least OOC'ly how many troops, aircraft, navy ships, etc. I'm sending out, plus their general area of origin. Thus, there shouldn't be any massive delays (2 months delay since UE came back from his Dec. vacation) where that is concerned.

All this aside, I believe it is far better to have someone refree wars, because I have seen too many war RP's and such be ruined by bickering and arguing about losses and who lost what stuff and why that stuff happened. If the bickering between UE and Vineyard is any indication, wars in Earth V would take seemingly forever to resolve. Personally, I think 80% of war RP's would have huge improvements in resolutions and quality of RP if they were refreed.

For example... A non-refreed war would be like this:

Nation A: "I send 200 bombers, several carriers and destroyers, and two corps worth of infantry aganist target Y of Nation B."

Nation B: "I counter with 200 fighters, 30 submarines, and 3 corps of infantry. Plus I have Anti-aircraft defenses."

Nation A: "75 bombers are shot down. 1 carrier is sunk as the destroyers screened out the subs, and only one corps of ground forces were lost due to a slight advantage in superior training for the terrain they're fighting in."

Nation B: "GODMOD! Too few losses! IGNORED!"

Nation A: "Excuse me, I posted reasonable losses owing to different military equipment and terrain and such."

Nation B: "Still IGNORED! IGNORE-CANNON! n00b!!!!1111!!!!"

Nation A: "Fuck it, I'll up my losses to 100 bombers, 2 carriers and 5 destroyers, and 1 corps of ground forces."

Nation B: "Not good enough. GODMOD! IGNORE!"

And it all goes downhill from there. Weeks pass before that particular battle is resolved, the RP as a whole dies out, or the whole war is ret-conned out of frustration, wasting weeks or months of RL time that could have been used for more productive RP'ing purposes.

With a refreed war, both sides have to accept the ruling of a third party such as this:

Nation A: "I send 200 bombers, several carriers and destroyers, and two corps worth of infantry aganist target Y of Nation B."

Nation B: "I counter with 200 fighters, 30 submarines, and 3 corps of infantry. Plus I have Anti-aircraft defenses."

Refree: "Nation A loses 75 bombers, 2 carriers, 4 destroyers, and 1 corps of infantry. Nation B loses 30 fighters, 50% anti-aircraft defenses, 15 subs, and 1 corps of infantry. This is according to the strengths and weaknesses of each side's tactics and strategy."

Nation A + B: "Okay. Next phase of the war."

See, problem resolved. No whining, bitching, moaning, and seemingly week after week worth of wasted time debating over one particular battle.

Alif Laam Miim

28-02-2007, 16:55

I have made it clear where my aircraft and troops are coming from such as New England, a few in Greenland, troops moving in from Colombia, cruise missiles coming in from the various Caribbean islands, and so forth.

I have already declared war, plus officially started the war aganist UE / RUN by sending out my aircraft, navy, and ground forces as evidenced in the second half of that war declaration post (with the "Engage" command). Thus, the RUN's appeal would have occurred *after* I have already declared war aganist it.

Therefore, everybody knows at least OOC'ly how many troops, aircraft, navy ships, etc. I'm sending out, plus their general area of origin. Thus, there shouldn't be any massive delays (2 months delay since UE came back from his Dec. vacation) where that is concerned.

All this aside, I believe it is far better to have someone refree wars, because I have seen too many war RP's and such be ruined by bickering and arguing about losses and who lost what stuff and why that stuff happened. If the bickering between UE and Vineyard is any indication, wars in Earth V would take seemingly forever to resolve. Personally, I think 80% of war RP's would have huge improvements in resolutions and quality of RP if they were refreed.

For example... A non-refreed war would be like this:

With a refreed war, both sides have to accept the ruling of a third party such as this:

Nation A: "I send 200 bombers, several carriers and destroyers, and two corps worth of infantry aganist target Y of Nation B."

Nation B: "I counter with 200 fighters, 30 submarines, and 3 corps of infantry. Plus I have Anti-aircraft defenses."

Refree: "Nation A loses 75 bombers, 2 carriers, 4 destroyers, and 1 corps of infantry. Nation B loses 30 fighters, 50% anti-aircraft defenses, 15 subs, and 1 corps of infantry. This is according to the strengths and weaknesses of each side's tactics and strategy."

Nation A + B: "Okay. Next phase of the war."

See, problem resolved. No whining, bitching, moaning, and seemingly week after week worth of wasted time debating over one particular battle.

Actually, this is a refreed war:

Nation A: "I send 200 bombers, several carriers and destroyers, and two corps worth of infantry aganist target Y of Nation B."

Nation B: "I counter with 200 fighters, 30 submarines, and 3 corps of infantry. Plus I have Anti-aircraft defenses."

Referee: "Nation A loses 75 bombers, 2 carriers, 4 destroyers, and 1 corps of infantry. Nation B loses 30 fighters, 50% anti-aircraft defenses, 15 subs, and 1 corps of infantry. This is according to the strengths and weaknesses of each side's tactics and strategy."

Nation A&B: "That's not right! It's GODMOD! IGNORED!"

Referee: ""Excuse me, I posted reasonable losses owing to different military equipment and terrain and such."

Nation A&B: "Still IGNORED! IGNORE-CANNON! n00b!!!!1111!!!!"

Referee: "Take it or leave it."

Nation A&B: "I'll leave, n00b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

It's obviously satire, but the truth that you'll get the same reaction if both players are up to the challenge of retconning an RP - especially a war. And while personally I wouldn't mind stating the losses, to me, that's just substituting people for a job that is seldom desired and seldom well-played.

My impression was simply to moderate debate on the war. And I knew that Sharina had already asked me to state the losses for the the attack on the RUN. However, I know realize that it's for the entire war period - and while I love doing this stuff, it's going to be a little harder than anticipated. Nonetheless, as long as I have the time for it, I will do what is needed, as according to Sharina.

That said, if I am going to be deciding losses, this debate has got to be more efficient!!!

And UE - you keep saying that Sharina has yet to declare war on you, and yet you are still reacting to Vineyard's war, which is a consequence of Sharina declaring war upon you. Realize that (1) he's already posted his initiation on other general IC threads - in fact, he has posted this information at least 5 times [mostly at my instance for fresh review]. If need be, I will post a reference link so it is readily available to all [since I now have the link saved :D]; (2) Sharina has been in part waiting for me to post the losses from his attack, in which case I have been waiting for your defense stats so I can reply in kind; (3) please stop suggesting to forget the war - it happens, and while I don't like it, it doesn't mean that I can't have it happen.

That said, if Sharina's dictate concerning war mod responsibilities is upheld, I will be posting results from Sharina's attacks on RUN establishments wherever possible - and the results typically favor the defense, but if I have no stats, it can be thence deduced that defense was not ready and will suffer for that. I'm not doing punish you for Sharina's war, but we've had more than enough time to resolve any kind of war preparation stuff.

And if Sharina's decision is still upheld concerning my continuation of responsibilities for the battle results, I will be doing so in as egalitarian a manner as possible, favoring the side with the most sensible decisions and tactics against those with little or no sense. Technology will be considered as well, but for the most part, nearly everyone has tech is at least comparable to each other in some form with minimal tech advantages going to either side discreetly. So please please please do a sensible job, because that will make fewer headaches for everyone.

Sharina

28-02-2007, 23:35

Two things, ALM.

First, I will abide by the refree's decision (99% of the time). Therefore I will not be the one who cries "IGNORE!" or "GODMOD!" unless it's extremely unrealistic (that 1% exception) like a single Eurofighter taking out 20 B-2 stealth bombers or a single Leopard-II tank killing 100 M1A1 Abrams tanks or something like that.

Second, I'm kind of loath to calculate losses not for the sake of it, but because of the inevitable whining and moaning that will probably result from it- look at Vineyard and United Earthling's bickering for weeks over one freaking battle. I want to avoid that at all costs, and to ensure the war goes smoothly without such bickering I believe it's best if both sides do not calculate their losses.

This is because nobody really "wants to lose" and consquently will almost always try to post the minimum amount of losses possible, which leads to the inevitable bickering and moaning. Real life battles don't work that way- there's no such a thing as "IGNORE!" or "GODMOD!" or "minimum losses as possible then argue for weeks with the enemy over whether my troops lived or not" in real life. Yes, military leaders try to minimize losses as much as possible in campaigns in real life, but it does not always work out that way.

Can you imagine this situation occurring in real life?

Hitler: Damn. My attack on Moscow failed. I lost 200 tanks and 20,000 men.

Stalin: No way! You lost 500 tanks and 100,000 men to the harsh Soviet winter, rushed planning, and poorly executed campaign.

Hitler: Screw that! I said I only lost 200 tanks. My other 300 tanks are alive and well, so are 80,000 men.

Stalin: I'm counting 500 dead tanks outside my window at the Kremlin. I saw large columns of captured German soldiers numbering more than just 20,000.

Hitler: IGNORED! That doesn't and never has happened! Ret-con back to 1941!

Stalin: Uh, wtf?

-------------------------------

See what I mean?

Vineyard

01-03-2007, 02:03

Bravo Sharina! Bravo!

ALM, can we get a ruling? This debate is honestly pathetic. Its over a minor phase of my war plan, and at this rate, we literally wont be done for months.

And I will accept what ever judgement you give me. No matter how unfair it may seem I will accept it anyhow. We need a mediary to continue with this war.

I mean, its a freking air-skirmish. Statisticly speaking, I have 250+ aircraft heading for 160+ of his aircraft, half of which are considered obsolete compared to mine! And, as UE calculated it (And avoided all missle attacks through the grace of god), My fighters... all of them... have been wiped out in 2 salvos.

That and chaff is extreemly ineffective against his magic missles.

Did I mention that already?

Granate: I did not intend on bringing you into this, I was simply mentioning another player's actions (Despite the fact you... somewhat... explained them) in the interests of UE. I felt at the time that constantly using the same examples over and over about he did this and that was getting redundant, so i tapped into another case I saw as inadequate.

And it is, in my view, quite silly to have armored columns in the mountains. Personally, with a small infantry force, I know of at least a dozen ways to annhiliate an armored advance in the mountains. While you hold a different view (Which I respect), I have mine, and ask you to respect mine without taking offence.

United Earthlings

01-03-2007, 04:14

Statics don't win wars. Vietnam proved that.

I already explained how I avoided your missile strike and as to how I counteracted your chaff. You can take it or leave it as I even provided valid sources that validated what I said.

I'm still waiting for you to post your losses from the first strike-you seem to believe that through some act of God after you deployed the chaff all my missiles miss. So, we seem to be kind of stuck. Now, I know not all the missiles will hit their target, but a lot will. This is a given.

So, I ask this same question for the final time. If, I still can't get an answer from you then roleplaying with you is pointless if you can't even give me a simple number as your loss in aircraft. And I would hate to see this RP end over some petty differences.

How many aircraft have you lost?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In reply to ALM: As to my defenses against Sharina's attack-I will declare that when I post my reply to Sharina's attack whenever that is as he has yet even to responded to my post about my involvement on the attack in the Cayman Islands, which is a post you specially asked for. See this post[top part in blue]-http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12252796&postcount=5

My opinion is this, if it ain't in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511856) then it isn't official. Note: The word opinion! Agree with it, disagree with it-I would just like to see everything in one place for various reasons. Is that asking to much? It would seem so, which is odd as that was exactly what that thread was created for.

I will be posting results from Sharina's attacks on RUN establishments wherever possible-Actually, no you won't. That's my job as I'm the RUN and will be posting my own losses and damage suffered. If, Sharina wants you to post his losses I'm fine with that-but, I'm not fine with anyone else posting my losses/damage. That is a God Mod and I will call it as such. If, you disagree with my losses- I will explain how I determined them and then if you still disagree with them, I'm willing to discuss the result in a clear and calm manner. If after 1 or 2 posts by each side, both still disagree I'm willing to let a war mod after reading all posts involved decided the losses to allow everyone to move on. I think that is a great comprise between allowing people to post their own losses (My opinion and others) and Sharina's Idea of having all the losses posted by the official war mod (who ever that may be). Let me know what you all think of that idea.

Me and Sharina have a disagreement on the issue on the who has right to posting losses. Sharina, as stated doesn't want to post his own losses or have anyone else have that ability either. Why, I can understand Sharina's point of view about the bickering-trust me even a refereed war has bickering. It's better we get the bickering done and over with now, then let it simmer and never be resolved. As you can clearly read-I'm trying to do exactly that.

Why I agree with Sharina nobody wants to lose, showing that you can roleplay a loss gracefully is a sign of great maturity and roleplaying experience and make more people want to roleplay with you. I fully intend to post losses in relation to what I put into the field. Attackers always suffer more causalities (both killed and wounded), while the Defender have always held the advantage. Even in today's world the defender has the advantage. If, I'm on the attack-I'll suffer more losses-if I'm on the defense odds are I will suffer less. I fully intend to reflect this.

Anything else?

United Earthlings

01-03-2007, 05:47

Another interesting site I just found about the AMRAAM-http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/11/amraam-deploying-developing-americas-mediumrange-airair-missile-updated/index.php

Sharina

01-03-2007, 06:54

Statics don't win wars. Vietnam proved that.

True to a degree.

However, statistics do win wars in some cases. A nation with only 1,000 infantry soldiers will most certainly lose to a nation with 200,000 infantry soldiers.

Jet aircraft outperform propeller aircraft in almost every area except fuel and range. Thus in a dogfight, a F-4 Phantom could win aganist, say, a P-47 Mustang.

In reply to ALM: As to my defenses against Sharina's attack-I will declare that when I post my reply to Sharina's attack whenever that is as he has yet even to responded to my post about my involvement on the attack in the Cayman Islands, which is a post you specially asked for. See this post[top part in blue]-http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12252796&postcount=5

My opinion is this, if it ain't in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511856) then it isn't official. Note: The word opinion! Agree with it, disagree with it-I would just like to see everything in one place for various reasons. Is that asking to much? It would seem so, which is odd as that was exactly what that thread was created for.

I have posted a link to my war declaration at least 4 or 5 times already. Your response would have occurred *AFTER* my people declared war, and my aircraft, navy, and troops would already be moving into your territory by the time your plea for peace and "culprit responibility" arrived.

-Actually, no you won't. That's my job as I'm the RUN and will be posting my own losses and damage suffered. If, Sharina wants you to post his losses I'm fine with that-but, I'm not fine with anyone else posting my losses/damage. That is a God Mod and I will call it as such. If, you disagree with my losses- I will explain how I determined them and then if you still disagree with them, I'm willing to discuss the result in a clear and calm manner. If after 1 or 2 posts by each side, both still disagree I'm willing to let a war mod after reading all posts involved decided the losses to allow everyone to move on. I think that is a great comprise between allowing people to post their own losses (My opinion and others) and Sharina's Idea of having all the losses posted by the official war mod (who ever that may be). Let me know what you all think of that idea.

I can understand where you're coming from, United Earthlings.

However, I have a huge problem with people posting their own losses. It'd be similiar to a player inflicting losses upon his own forces in a PBEM (Play By E-Mail) or other modes of multi-player gaming for games such as Civilization or strategy games. How do you trust a player to not "cheat" and minimize his own losses and maximizing his offensive power aganist the other player?

Another example:

I post my attack aganist RUN forces. United Earthlings posts his defenses and whatever fighters and SAM sites and what have you.

I decide I lose no B-2's because they're "invisible to RADAR, thus RADAR missiles, AWACS aircraft, SAM sites, etc. can't detect my B-2's. Thus they bomb everything with precision munitions and I lose no B-2's."

Then United Earthlings comes up with an arguement saying "Wait, there are defenses aganist the B-2 that I use. Post B-2 losses."

I go "Uh, no. The real world nations have yet to demostrate a viable way to reliably detect and take down stealth aircraft, and seeing that Earth V is a realistic RP set in 2007 modern world, no NS tech or uber-NS-stuff allowed, that means there is no reliable way in Earth V *YET* to take down B-2's or other stealth aircraft."

Then me and UE get into similiar bickering as he and Vineyard went into. The war is delayed by several more weeks. Rinse + repeat for next 5, 10, 20+ major battles in the war. Before we know it, it'll be 2008 in RL before this war is halfway done.

This is why I believe a refreed determination of war losses will allow the war to be concluded by, say, April at the latest instead of 2008 in RL. A refreed war favors better strategy and tactics, and doesn't allow players to "cheat" their losses to a minimum. Yes, there will be bickering, but at least it won't delay the war until 2008 in RL (or something drastic like that).

Me and Sharina have a disagreement on the issue on the who has right to posting losses. Sharina, as stated doesn't want to post his own losses or have anyone else have that ability either. Why, I can understand Sharina's point of view about the bickering-trust me even a refereed war has bickering. It's better we get the bickering done and over with now, then let it simmer and never be resolved. As you can clearly read-I'm trying to do exactly that.

Why I agree with Sharina nobody wants to lose, showing that you can roleplay a loss gracefully is a sign of great maturity and roleplaying experience and make more people want to roleplay with you. I fully intend to post losses in relation to what I put into the field. Attackers always suffer more causalities (both killed and wounded), while the Defender have always held the advantage. Even in today's world the defender has the advantage. If, I'm on the attack-I'll suffer more losses-if I'm on the defense odds are I will suffer less. I fully intend to reflect this.

Anything else?

I have been involved in the E20 (Earth 1900-2000) RP, which was one of the longest running RP's in NS before the mods closed it for apparently not using NS nations.

During that time (nearly 2 years), the first E20 made it to 1970's at 1 year = 1 RL week and the 2nd E20 made it to the 1920's with 1 year = 1 RL week timescale. In all that time, the E20 RP was refreed, and had several huge world wars, some minor wars, espionage, scheming, etc. It was extremely realistic in comparison to 99% of NS RP's because the losses, victories, and such were refreed (and consquently realistic).

What's more, in E20, there has NOT been more than 1 or 2 instances of "GODMOD! IGNORED!" and those couple of instances were overruled by the refree and the game went right along.

So you can see why I highly favor refreed losses instead of players determining their own losses. It is because of the likeihood of players "cheating" their losses and creating a lot of bickering in the process, and because that very bickering slows down the RP as a whole and turns away propsective new members who may want to RP (they can't RP much until the war's over for obvious reasons- take Braska for example).

I can see players determining their own losses if its a 1 vs 1 RP and the players are good friends and trust each other. Take me and Kormanthor for example- if he and I RP'ed together in a RP story / planet / universe / whatever that only concerns me and him, we can sort out losses. But when there's a "multi-player" RP, it grows more difficult to trust everybody and make sure everybody adheres to the same rules, same ethics, same ideals, same honor, etc. with increasing amounts of players involved. Not to mention all the varying attitudes of each individual, their opinions, their beliefs on what they should win / lose, etc.

In cases like these, an arbitary refree ruling is necessary to keep the RP moving, and the players who are refree'd must accept the refree's decision. Then the group can move onto the next battle. Although to be fair, the players who are refree'd may RP the battle itself with the results in mind (unchangeable results), thus allowing the players to have at least some RP control.

United Earthlings

01-03-2007, 10:49

I have posted a link to my war declaration at least 4 or 5 times already. Your response would have occurred *AFTER* my people declared war, and my aircraft, navy, and troops would already be moving into your territory by the time your plea for peace and "culprit responibility" arrived.

Where is your updated war declaration post in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511856) as I can't find it? If, I can't find it I can't responded to it.

Also, my two responses occurred *BEFORE* you have declared war. The first one is/was the CNN message-if it's still valid? The other one is this one-IC: A few days ago, unbeknownst to us at the time, a Frigate was hijacked by a Rogue Element operating inside our military. We believe they are the ones responsible for the attack. Their current location is unknown to us, but we believe they are disguising themselves as either Sharinan or Vineyardian and operating somewhere inside the Gulf of Mexico. They may be planning another attack, however we are unsure of their exact intentions. As acting head of the Venezuelan Government, I take full responsibility for the attack, even though those committing the crime were acting entirely on their own and beyond my control. I share your conviction in bringing those responsible for this horrendous crime to justice.

I find these attacks on unarmed civilians as appalling as you do. If, we can assist you in anyway of finding those responsible, please let us know. You have my people’s deepest apologies for the attack on your nation, as we were just as surprised as you were. Since, the crime occurred over Sharina land-we understand should you find those responsible and want to try them in your courts. We merely asked that we be allowed to attended the proceedings. Again, you have our deepest apologies and we wish you the best of luck in finding those who are guilty of these crimes against humanity.

A reply to that post would be nice, I did after all put a lot of work into it.

Anyway, moving on- as stated I would prefer to post my own losses and only have a person intervene when both parties come to a stand still.

This is why I proposed the following in an early post-If, the person disagrees with the losses one person has- they will have a chance to explain how they determined their losses and then if the person still disagrees with them after 1 or 2 posts by each side. The designated war mod after reading the IC posts in question will decided once and for all, what the losses were in that specify post or posts.

One final thing to consider and then I'm done talking on the above issues as I believe I have stated my opinion on the matter already enough and I'm ready to move on.

*In the case of this war being a refereed war, their's one thing Sharina you failed to consider-time constraints. ALM-gets on nationstates, on average once a week. Right now he's very busy with real life. At the rate he will be able to decided each loss for each battle it would be just as slow going as it is now with us posting our own losses and bickering about it for a few posts, in fact it would probably be even slower. Remember, each post when the war finally gets really going will pretty much be a battle needing losses decided. If, were waiting for ALM (as all have agreed to let him be the war mod) then the story (the war) can't move on. Same result, didn't conditions causing it. Now if we can limit our bickering, which I'm trying to do and be able to post our own losses the story we move along much faster even with many people involved. I've seen massive wars work without a referee, so I know it's possible.

In closing even ALM has admitted it's won't be easy for him to be able to post the losses on a regular basis.*

That's it, as soon as Vineyard post his losses from the first attack (so I can edit my two posts according) and posts a new reply-we can continue. Which, I’m for one am ready to do. If, were going to have a war-let's have one.

Vineyard

01-03-2007, 18:19

UE:

We both agreed that ALM would be judging this war.I stated very clearly that we need a neutural party to judge losses in order for this to be as fair as possible. On top of that,you agreed.ALM was chosen, and this sequence began.

Initially, I thought you were confused about how this was going to be run. Apparently, I was badly mistaken. On this note, I believe that Sharina has covered all that needs to be said.

If I had it my way, my losses in aircraft would be somewhere around 5. FIVE.

"What the !? Why! My calculations....!"

Statistics dont win battles.

Bitter twang of Irony.

My logic: You fired your missles all at once. Your pilots fired all at once. While it shows their dicipline, its idiotic. At best, you allow the individual squadrens to fire off their initialsalvowhen they soplease.

Now, with a single wave of encroaching missles, a singleburst at the oppertune time ought to incapacitate them all. 5 is being generous in my humble opinion.

Now, to you this is unfair. I know this. But its what I know to be likly. However, ALM probably holds a different opinion. And you undoubtedly hold a different opinion.

WORD ART TIME! (EDIT: Failed Miserably)

!!!!! -----Missles

+++ -----Chaff
+++
+++ ^
|\ |
| \ |
| \ |
| \ |
| \__|
^ ---Fighters path

Alif Laam Miim

05-03-2007, 03:37

Sorry to make everyone wait. It seems that EV has taken a sour turn for the worse. But while I am still within my ability to do so, I will address various issues that I now see that need resolution before I get back writing a paper on IR theory...

1 - I hear one guy saying yes, the other no; do you want me to moderate the war in its entirety? If so, I will make devout efforts to be more active given my schedule. But I'm not certain what I should be doing at this time. Once I have that clear as deciding results et cetera, I'll be much happier.

2 - referring to this statement:

Where is your updated war declaration post in this thread as I can't find it? If, I can't find it I can't responded to it.

Also, my two responses occurred *BEFORE* you have declared war. The first one is/was the CNN message-if it's still valid? The other one is this one-

Okay... This is what I have from this mess of time wanking that has happened perpetually since December [almost November!]:

POST1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12041394&postcount=64) Vineyard's carrier force attacks Grand Cayman Isle

POST2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12042833&postcount=66) Sharina announces destruction of GCI, and blames RUN - declares war; simultaneously launches air wave against RUN targets, the subject of which has been some part of this debate for quite some time and still remains to be resolved.

POST3 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12068028&postcount=74) Simon Bolivar supposedly makes an address before Sharina declares war, even though post is after the declaration of war by quite a length...

POST4 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12086495&postcount=77) The debated CNN footage of the carrier strike, which I believe was considered to be either a false portrayal of a real event or simply not considered as really I can't remember; I seriously thought that this was already resolved...

As for the other comment, that resides in the IC thread, which does not predate the declaration of war. In fact, it well exceeds the time past when it was declared. Besides that, in order for your government to have made a reaction and defense against Sharina's accusations, you will have needed to have heard the declaration of war in the same post - because both are listed in the same post. If your country decides to clear its name before it has any name to be cleared, people will get suspicious about why your country is doing, and it might in fact give some incentive to Sharina to blame a lot more on your government, because the historical precedent demonstrates that yours is an apologetic government. On account of temporal lapse and the consequent lapse of logical chronology in the posts themselves, your posts do not predate the declaration of war, which has been and remains the reason why we are here.

As far as the bomb raid attacks, I'm hoping to get those out ASAP, as long as I know what I supposed to be doing with it.

3 - If you find my absence disconcerting, please find someone else as willing as I would be. I don't mind being usurped, as long as you don't blame me [or the successor mod] for the lagging progress of this war. I've been trying to move it, as far as I've tried in the limited interactions that I've had [and as you will note, I haven't been very successful...]

4 - Vineyard, while I don't agree that 135 losses out of 168 missiles is a rational number, for the relative advantage that the attacker demonstrates, you wouldn't lose only 5 planes. My personal bias says somewhere between 25 and 30. My reasons: he's attacking you while you were targeting something else, and hence your pilots were not focused on the incoming barrage of missiles; however, he did commit to a single-shot salvo, which might seem to be a no-brainer kill-all solution, the planes have but to dodge the missiles at the precise moment, and they dodge it once - multiple wave missile strikes are more efficient and devastating because of the mechanics of the human mind, which can often manage only one target at a time, sometimes two, rarely three; the missiles are advanced, and do possess a technological advantage against pilots, especially those not trained for it; you also did mention launch chaff countermeasures, so this would also reduce the number of potential strikes that the missiles could acquire.

This is a number that I think is relatively representative of the losses. There are several other factors that could contribute to a larger or lesser number of casualties, but I'll leave it at this. For certain, 135 is excessive and unrealistic [unless Vineyard decided to pop in 4-year-old pilots...]. THAT SAID, Vineyard still has to engage RUN fighters on territory that is still advantageous to RUN fighters [having support from limited AA units] - if the RUN does employ his forces well, he could still manage to destroy a large quantity of the Vineyardian attack force [in which case, having 8,000 extra planes sounds like a great idea...]. Of course, the same could be said for Vineyard, but as I've stated, his attack clearly favors the defense in some large proportion, which I attribute more to the command leadership's failure to realize a reasonable support for for their aircraft over RUN territories, offering the RUN substantial home terrain advantages.

In any case, take this is as my decision if you decide to accept my moderation. If you don't agree with me, please state why, and offer conclusive evidence that I may consider in revising this statement. And again, I hope to be more active over this week, as I also hope you do so as well.

Sharina

05-03-2007, 12:38

Sorry to make everyone wait. It seems that EV has taken a sour turn for the worse. But while I am still within my ability to do so, I will address various issues that I now see that need resolution before I get back writing a paper on IR theory...

In any case, take this is as my decision if you decide to accept my moderation. If you don't agree with me, please state why, and offer conclusive evidence that I may consider in revising this statement. And again, I hope to be more active over this week, as I also hope you do so as well.

I am a mod and United Earthlings is not. Therefore if I decide both sides will have to accept the war mod's rulings regarding losses so that the war may move forward instead of remaining stuck in endless debate, arguing, and bickering, both sides will have to oblige.

In other words, I decree that for this war, the war mod is to determine losses for both sides to cut down a lot of bickering and force the war to move forward so that it may be finished and everybody becomes able to roleplay in other areas, plus allow new players to RP their new nations and everything.

I am doing this for the good for Earth V, and this decree is a necessary thing that has to be done, otherwise Earth V will die out from inactivity due to the bickering over this war.

----------------------------

ALM, the general role I had in mind is that you handle the losses of both sides, and also determine how badly a nation's production, ability to mobilize, supply lines, etc. are effected by strikes from the other player.

This way, both sides will know how much they lose, plus the effect on their war-making capability- for example, if airfields are cratered, it would be difficult to launch bombers, if significant industrial centers are badly damaged in bombing raids it becomes more difficult to sustain a war effort (like making ammo, supplies, spare parts, new vehicles, new weapons, etc.) and so forth.

I think that is a pretty reasonable start, and it is my hope that this war will be resolved as quickly as possible, then everybody can return to their normal RP'ing (and newcomers to Earth V can set up shop without being forced to wait for the war to finish as it'll be finished ASAP).

I am uncertain who will be able to moderate this war if for some reason ALM cannot continue in his moderation duties. Apparently the only ones still active is me, UE, Vineyard, Kopparbergs, and ALM. I don't see TGSR post here that often, and Granate + Samtonia post maybe once or twice a week or a bit more than that.

United Earthlings

05-03-2007, 17:48

Over the past few days I've done some thinking on this matter and as that has allowed me to clear my head. During that time a few things accourded to me that I hadn't thought of before.

1. Is it even humanly possible to fire all those missiles at once? These planes, both mine and Vineyard’s are flying in a tight formation which means that not every aircraft are going to have a clear shot. Even, if all the pilots and their aircraft had a clear shot-each person is going to have a different reaction time from a few Microseconds to a few regular seconds as the order to fire (engage) is handed down to all levels and in turn that action is followed. Furthermore, to give ever single aircraft a clear shot I would have to spread them out both in distance (each aircraft has over a 10 meter wingspan) and in height (different groups at different attitudes) thereby making their detection much more likely. A fact I was trying to avoid as much as possible. The more spread out the aircraft are the more likely they will show up on radar even with the aircrafts Stealth enhancements.

4 - Vineyard, while I don't agree that 135 losses out of 168 missiles is a rational number, for the relative advantage that the attacker demonstrates, you wouldn't lose only 5 planes. My personal bias says somewhere between 25 and 30. My reasons: he's attacking you while you were targeting something else, and hence your pilots were not focused on the incoming barrage of missiles; however, he did commit to a single-shot salvo, which might seem to be a no-brainer kill-all solution, the planes have but to dodge the missiles at the precise moment, and they dodge it once - multiple wave missile strikes are more efficient and devastating because of the mechanics of the human mind, which can often manage only one target at a time, sometimes two, rarely three; the missiles are advanced, and do possess a technological advantage against pilots, especially those not trained for it; you also did mention launch chaff countermeasures, so this would also reduce the number of potential strikes that the missiles could acquire.

2. To the above statement I would like to add the following. That number 135 your all making a huge deal out of nothing more then what was an educated guess until Vineyard would state his own losses. I'm not in no way sticking to my declared statement of it being 135, it was a God Mod and I admit it. As soon as I get a permanent loss from Vineyard (he says 5, it's 5), now ALM says 25 to 30 I'll change the number until then I plan to edit my post and leave the loss with just a question mark. Simple yet, effective.

2A. The first thing I would like to add to that statement is the following-The Missiles or at least the first wave of them is coming from at or near Vineyard’s pilots six o’clock. The pilots missile warning system will only tell them a missile has locked onto them (as far as I know that’s all they do, I could be wrong), but not from what direction the missile is coming from. His pilots first have to spot the direction the missile is coming from and that means even more time for the Missiles to home in on their target and even less time for Vineyard’s pilots to take evasive maneuvers, such as deploying chaff. I would also like to add, that it is documented that the AIM-120 AMRAAM leaves no trail (that is a smoke trail), which makes spotting a white object no bigger then a CD case very difficult if not next to impossible. By my actions, I had gained tactical surprise-that should be reflected in both Vineyard actions and by the losses he thereby will suffer from losing the advantage.

2B. Aside, from the fact that Vineyard's pilots would in all likelihood given the time constraints being imposted, not had time to deploy the chaff. But, for the sake of not auguring over every single point, I'm willing to accept he had time and use this time instead to ask the following question. OK, he deployed the chaff-it throws off the missiles guidance from their target they had been locked-on to. That's one aircraft, he has 249 others in the immediate area. Plenty of targets for the rogue missile to lock-on too, don't you think? Which do you think displays a bigger target- A. the top of a turning fighter or B. a few pieces of chaff from each plane? Also, effecting the amount of radar clutter the chaff is causing would depend on how much is deployed in one area. If, his planes are all pretty much grouped into one defined area then the chaff will have more effect. However, if like I'm assuming are spread out over an area then it's effectiveness is going to be limited.

I am a mod and United Earthlings is not. Therefore if I decide both sides will have to accept the war mod's rulings regarding losses so that the war may move forward instead of remaining stuck in endless debate, arguing, and bickering, both sides will have to oblige.

I am an Earth V mod and United Earthlings is not. Therefore if I decide both sides will have to accept the war mod's rulings regarding losses so that the war may move forward instead of remaining stuck in endless debate, arguing, and bickering, both sides will have to oblige.-fixed part in bold. This way, there won't be any of that confusion again.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will be editing my two IC posts in the American Thread to better reflect the realities of this world and what has been discussed here in the OCC thread. Furthermore, I will be deleting the CNN post and editing the other post about my reaction to Sharina's declaration of war to better reflect what ALM brought up.

Hopefully, Sharina won't take much longer to post his updated war declaration. By, updated I mean where each of his aircraft are taking off from stated IC and not OCC, as Sharina has been doing in the past. If isn't IC, then for the most part it isn't official, a war declaration is not a minor thing. You all have showed similar views in the past. Since, ALM linked the post I don't have to quote it. Should you choose to re-read the post in question and confirm what I have just said. Once Sharina posts his new reply and that is done, I have no objections and will put up my reply as soon as possible.

Sharina

06-03-2007, 03:33

I will be editing my two IC posts in the American Thread to better reflect the realities of this world and what has been discussed here in the OCC thread. Furthermore, I will be deleting the CNN post and editing the other post about my reaction to Sharina's declaration of war to better reflect what ALM brought up.

Hopefully, Sharina won't take much longer to post his updated war declaration. By, updated I mean where each of his aircraft are taking off from stated IC and not OCC, as Sharina has been doing in the past. If isn't IC, then for the most part it isn't official, a war declaration is not a minor thing. You all have showed similar views in the past. Since, ALM linked the post I don't have to quote it. Should you choose to re-read the post in question and confirm what I have just said. Once Sharina posts his new reply and that is done, I have no objections and will put up my reply as soon as possible.

Hate to nitpick as god knows I'm tired of the bickering. However, I need to clear up a minor point.

I did write my forces attacking from an IC standpoint. My bases recieved a word order, "Engage" and then started launching their stuff at their targets. I never write OOC stuff as IC, as I consider that piss-poor RP'ing and sorta of meta-gaming.

On a side note, I am not exactly sure what needs updating in my war declaration post, considering that the CNN and some other stuff are going to be deleted or changed around.

United Earthlings

06-03-2007, 11:44

Things that need to be updated in your war declaration post.

Update 1:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12222315&postcount=62

Update 2:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12230506&postcount=70

Update 3:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12231554&postcount=71

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All those things discussed in those 3 posts you need to state IC or it can't be counted as official. Why you find that piss-poor roleplaying it still needs to be done for ALM to judged the results properly. He needs as much specific information as possible and it needs to be stated IC-if your refusing to post important specific information that has been requested that you post IC then I direct your attention to this post as we start this whole debate again from the beginning.

Important that you read this word for word. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12195682&postcount=22)

Why, you might think I'm doing this to delay the war. I assure you I am not. I'm just making sure all bases are cover to prevent any undo God-Mods or other forms of cheats. The only thing that you have stated IC is that you have declared war on me and are sending aircraft against my holdings. Nothing about where they are coming from or how much. These things need to be stated IC as both I and ALM have requested you to do. What will take you less then 5 minutes to do, you have given me and to a less extent ALM a hard time over.

For example-for your current attack. You state no concrete numbers- A. That makes calculating your losses impossible and B. Allows you to state at any time any random number you feel like.

You: I sent 1,000 aircraft against you.

Me: OK, where is that stated.

You: Here-follow link to OCC post.

Me: Your aware that, it's in OCC right and were supposed to consider IC and OCC separate. Have you stated IC anywhere the numbers you say?

You: No, I find it a waste of time to post IC numbers.

Me: Ok, then I invoke the Law of God Molding. Since, you refused to post any concrete numbers you left me no course. You could at any time you feel like change the numbers your attacking with.

We now proceed to have a two page debate just like the one were having now over the validness of OCC verses IC posts, etc...

Note: Yes, I know that was a crude example, but it should hopefully get the point I'm trying to convey. In that, only IC stuff is used for the roleplay. If, you don't state or at least in some way reference it in character-no one has to take it seriously.-See my posts about the sub and the pictures of the carrier. A perfect example of what I'm talking about when no one will take it seriously.

I shouldn't have to post any more what I/ALM want you to update as all I'm asking for should be covered above. If, your still confused- I do what I can to answer your questions as quickly as possible.

Vineyard

06-03-2007, 22:29

ALM, you do not have to ask me for permission or approval for any losses you incur opon my armed forces. I accept your judgement as an arbitrator and a mod.

At any rate, yes. At this point of my plan, it cannot hurt to reveal what I intended.

Yes, my fighters and bombers were terribly exposed, clearly favoring the defences. That was my plan. And it worked brilliantly.

Or so I thought.

I ment to expose his defences. The offer of a few hundred aircraft over his airspace attacking set targets was too much for UE to resist. So, he sprung his entire defence system.

Excellent. Know I know what i have to deal with.

I launched my missles, knowing that it would take out a majority of his AA defences. That is really the only tangible asset he has for his defence. Beyond that, and I'm sure UE has realized this, he is royally screwed. The rest can be mopped up as my land forces hit the ground, as UE will apparently have to keep moving his defences around, dodging cruise missles.

My point being my area of expertise is ground engagements, along with the blatent superiority of the Imperial Guard, means that UE's paltry forces on the ground are no match. The Imperial Guard, alone, with no guidance can rip armies to shreds. Why?

Coordination. Communication. These being the biggest factors in modern armies.

Where the hell do you guys think i spent 3 Million per soldier? I can think of some pretty extreme training excersizes costing 200k, along with 200k in equiptment, but the rest goes to Satilite Communications, coordination officers, etc.

Lets put it this way. The Imperial Guardsman has a built-in 'radio' of sorts. Actually, you could compare it to a satilite phone. There, they are linked up with their support staff which tell them where the enemy is, where the fighting is, and the distance from, altitude, and status of their objectives and targets.

And this is by platoon. 1 coordination personnel per platoon. I've RPed it before. How and where do you think the commanding officers get their orders from? Just intuition? No. Little people speaking into their ears.

Yea, there we go.

At any rate, I've been sitting on my haunches, watching this nonsensical OOC debate pan out. its heading in the right direction.

Oh, and guys: No one, in any feesible way, can know anything about the Imperial Guard. I've parted with this in confidence that you will not suddenly develop some sort of 'Jamming' system... that can jam satilites communications...

Alif Laam Miim

09-03-2007, 19:36

All those things discussed in those 3 posts you need to state IC or it can't be counted as official. Why you find that piss-poor roleplaying it still needs to be done for ALM to judged the results properly. He needs as much specific information as possible and it needs to be stated IC-if your refusing to post important specific information that has been requested that you post IC then I direct your attention to this post as we start this whole debate again from the beginning.

Important that you read this word for word. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12195682&postcount=22)

Why, you might think I'm doing this to delay the war. I assure you I am not. I'm just making sure all bases are cover to prevent any undo God-Mods or other forms of cheats. The only thing that you have stated IC is that you have declared war on me and are sending aircraft against my holdings. Nothing about where they are coming from or how much. These things need to be stated IC as both I and ALM have requested you to do. What will take you less then 5 minutes to do, you have given me and to a less extent ALM a hard time over.

For example-for your current attack. You state no concrete numbers- A. That makes calculating your losses impossible and B. Allows you to state at any time any random number you feel like.

You: I sent 1,000 aircraft against you.

Me: OK, where is that stated.

You: Here-follow link to OCC post.

Me: Your aware that, it's in OCC right and were supposed to consider IC and OCC separate. Have you stated IC anywhere the numbers you say?

You: No, I find it a waste of time to post IC numbers.

Me: Ok, then I invoke the Law of God Molding. Since, you refused to post any concrete numbers you left me no course. You could at any time you feel like change the numbers your attacking with.

We now proceed to have a two page debate just like the one were having now over the validness of OCC verses IC posts, etc...

Note: Yes, I know that was a crude example, but it should hopefully get the point I'm trying to convey. In that, only IC stuff is used for the roleplay. If, you don't state or at least in some way reference it in character-no one has to take it seriously.-See my posts about the sub and the pictures of the carrier. A perfect example of what I'm talking about when no one will take it seriously.

I see where the confusion is stemming from, and while I realize I am fault to some extent, I think that people's expectations in general are rather unreal in themselves.

In my post declaration on what to give to me, the sum of the point is that I know what is happening, where it's happening, when, it's happening, and how it's going to happen. My point about making an IC post was not so people could complain about it being IC or OOC, but more so that people knew what was going to happen. I quote myself:

Noting that you can authorize the mobilization of additional units during the course of the war, but it will need to be ICly declared well in advance of their commitment to combat areas.

If we are going on technical terms, the only person who has been best [not to say that he always does so, but his example is more frequent than not] following upon this is Vineyard - his forces have been the most transparent oocly, and I do not think that there is a doubt as to where his forces are usually situated. If everyone posted in a manner as he posted, I think that we would have fewer debates - but it hasn't been that way, and I'd expect it to be that way.

Nonetheless, that revelation doesn't really help us - the problem that I think is concerning UE is that Sharina's forces were never technically declared ICly - despite his vast elucidations about his forces and their intentions oocly, all of which were supposed to be clarifications about IC declarations. Personally, I can tolerate it, but if the UE cannot tolerate it, I would please Sharina to accommodate the IC-nature of the posts as soon as possible, so I can get to having stats about the RUN's defenses. I realize that you've made many posts, but I'm hoping sincerely that this is the last time that you will have to this in regards to the first attack it is the last time that you will post it because then I will make a post link to that post so there is never again any doubt as to what was declared]. Hopefully, this will allow us to move on - otherwise, I will be very very very angry. I'd like to think that it's me stopping everything, but nothing goes on while I'm away, so it's not me that stops the debate.

@ Vineyard:

Well, it's your strategy. I'm criticizing it for its present implications, but if those implications are those that you desire, then your plan is succeeding. To what ends they meet, I don't know, but I certainly hope for your own sake that they do meet their intended aims.

Sharina

09-03-2007, 21:03

Let me make sure I got this straight.

You want me to post / spew out numbers and which area the attacks are coming from in an IC format?

United Earthlings

09-03-2007, 21:22

Let me make sure I got this straight.

You want me to post / spew out numbers and which area the attacks are coming from in an IC format?

Correct, and to do it in the Official IC War of the Americas thread. That's all I wanted. After, that I'll post a reply and then ALM if your so inclined to have him do it, can post (determine) our losses. And then we can move on to the next part.

Sharina

10-03-2007, 00:04

Posted a revised IC post as requested.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12411058&postcount=17

United Earthlings

10-03-2007, 01:37

Posted a revised IC post as requested.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12411058&postcount=17

Beautiful, that's just what I wanted. Expect an IC reply to all that within a few days to a week.

[Yes, it's going to be a big reply and which is why it will take awhile to complete.]

Alif Laam Miim

11-03-2007, 18:22

Beautiful, that's just what I wanted. Expect an IC reply to all that within a few days to a week.

[Yes, it's going to be a big reply and which is why it will take awhile to complete.]

I'm glad that this is rolling on once again...

Is there anything else needing resolution while this is being tallied?

United Earthlings

12-03-2007, 19:01

I'm glad that this is rolling on once again...

Is there anything else needing resolution while this is being tallied?

Are you going to be calculating all the losses for this war or will there be a compromise with the nations involved in this war being allowed to calculate their own losses with you overseeing the losses as acting War Mod of Earth V? By overseeing I mean, we do post each of our losses and if you agree with them-you incorporate them into declared losses. If, you disagree with them you have the power to edit them-though I hope you hear all sides of the discussion before making a decision on the amount of losses if there is disagreement by us.

In the meantime, I'll be working on editing those two posts that were posted in response to Vineyard's attack (including removing the stated losses) and getting a reply up to Sharina's post I have been waiting so long to reply to, now that's it official.

Sharina

12-03-2007, 19:25

Are you going to be calculating all the losses for this war or will there be a compromise with the nations involved in this war being allowed to calculate their own losses with you overseeing the losses as acting War Mod of Earth V? By overseeing I mean, we do post each of our losses and if you agree with them-you incorporate them into declared losses. If, you disagree with them you have the power to edit them-though I hope you hear all sides of the discussion before making a decision on the amount of losses if there is disagreement by us.

In the meantime, I'll be working on editing those two posts that were posted in response to Vineyard's attack (including removing the stated losses) and getting a reply up to Sharina's post I have been waiting so long to reply to, now that's it official.

On one hand, I don't want to end up arguing over losses and such, especially with the delays we've already had. I want a conclusion to this war not before too long so that all the new players can RP their stuff, and other players like Braska can start RP'ing the rebuilding of South America, and stuff like that. Some people like Braska and Brinkman (before he "quit") have been waiting 2 to 3 RL months to do their RP's. Azaha seems to want to move on with RP'ing as well.

However, on the other hand, ALM might not have a lot of time to calculate losses for both sides as he is apparently going to be busy with school and RL stuff.

I just don't want a rehash or similiarities of the whole "Missile VS Planes loss" arguement between Vineyard and United Earthlings (took like 3 RL weeks as of now) to occur for every battle that will be taking place. If such were to occur, by the time this war ends, everybody would have left Earth V because of frustration and not being able to RP stuff while the war kind of freezes the year + time in Earth V during its duration.

I want to avoid those things from happening, so perhaps it'd be best if the losses were calcuated, refreed, and decided upon by a third party for this war, especially for the sake of expediency and a much needed resolution. If this war (both IC and OOC threads and declarations, etc.) started last week or yesterday, I'd be far more willing to have a compromise of player calculated losses and a refree modify these losses to realistic levels.

The next war will most likely have this compromise put in place because we'll know exactly what to expect, and hopefully the next war between Earth V players won't end up being dragged out for 2 - 3 RL months.

United Earthlings

14-03-2007, 20:02

In Reply to Vineyard and/or ALM (if you are going to be calculating the losses). As you can see, I posted the sentences of what I edit. You can compare the two with the before and after. Do note, not all the sentences are together as shown here in the posts. They are spread out throughout the paragraphs of the original posts. I just stuck them together here for easy of use.

Post #10

Before edit: From 40 miles out it wouldn’t be long before they closed on the enemy, to separate the Fighters that were guarding the Ospreys, all aircraft locked on to a Fighter and then suddenly all at once shouted “Fox Three". In an instant a 168 AMRAAM missiles were on there way to their target and with a 90% success rate, it was unlikely most fighters would survive.

After edit: From 40 miles out it wouldn’t be long before they closed on the enemy, to separate the Fighters that were guarding the Ospreys, all aircraft locked on to a enemy fighter and then suddenly all those who had a clear shot at once shouted “Fox Three". All those in the fighter wing who had been unable to fire, within twenty seconds had reposited for a clear shot and fired their long-range missiles. A total of 168 AMRAAM missiles, divided into two waves spaced apart by 20 seconds were now well on there way to their targets and with a 90% success rate it was unlikely most of the enemy fighters targeted would survive.

Post #15

Before edit: Moments after the enemy fired their Missiles, the 168 AMRAAM’s using their mid-course update provided by the fighters and AWACS aircraft. Without little warning, the missiles struck their targets. [OCC: Those missiles have a 90%+ success rate. Based on that, I calculated that 80% of those 168 missiles would hit their targets. Hence, where I get the following number of aircraft destroyed.] In a blip of a second, 135 enemy fighters? [OCC: Will edit when you state what your losses were] had vanished from the radar. "Fox Three". At the sound of those two words another 115 AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles, or AMRAAMs were on their way and traveling at Mach 4 it wouldn’t be long before they reached their targets. The incoming cruise missiles were locked into the guidance systems of the various Missile Defense Systems. The amount of missiles released was staggering, those cruise missiles that managed to get through the huge wall of flak and missiles crashed harmlessly into the countryside when they were unable to located their designated target or into the numerous decoys deployed throughout the Islands.

After edit: Moments after the enemy fired their Missiles, the first wave of the 168 AMRAAM Missiles using their mid-course update provided by the fighters and AWACS aircraft. Without little warning, the missiles struck their targets. In a blip of a second, ? enemy fighters had vanished from the radar. "Fox Three". At the sound of those two words another 96 AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles divided into three groups of thirty-two missiles each and spaced apart by twenty-to-thirty second firing intervals were on their way and traveling at Mach 4 it wouldn’t be long before they also reached their targets. The incoming cruise missiles were locked into the guidance systems of the various Missile Defense Systems including those on board ships out at sea around the Balearic Islands. The amount of missiles released was staggering, those cruise missiles that managed to get through the huge wall of flak from the Skyguard Air Defense System and Standard/Patriot/NASAMS Missile Air Defense Systems, crashed harmlessly into the countryside when they were unable to located their designated targets or into the numerous sensor decoys that were deployed throughout the Islands.

Sharina

18-03-2007, 22:32

Venezuela/Caribbean- Though some of the five hundred cruise missiles had been managed to be shot down, specially around vital targets which included the Shipyards, Naval Bases, Army Bases and Air Force Bases, where the highest concentration of the air defenses were situated. The damage done to the civilian airfields, on the other hand was extensive and yet their destruction had little effect upon the military capabilities of the armed forces of the Republic and specifically the Venezuelan military. While, the Sharina military had sought their destruction was at best questionable. Still, the Republic was quite content to let the Sharina military complex waste their resources on civilian targets and other unless targets. It would only further strengthen the resolve of the people of the Republic. Yet, the Republican military leaders knew that this was just the opening salvo of the attack and that soon the Bombers and ground forces of the Sharina military would follow. While, the Republic had expected the Sharina’s to send nothing, but stealth bombers. A eventually the Republican military had been preparing for with the fielding of radars capable of detecting just such aircraft. While, these were new radars and bugs were expected. They would give the Republic a clear tactical advantage even with their limitations. The fact that the Sharina’s had sent along B-52s and B-70s, with the B-2s had surprised many in the Republic as these aircraft could and in time would be shot down. The additional blunder of the Sharina’s sending their bombers without air escort was yet another surprise to those watching the massive wave of bombers approach. Either the Sharina’s were so arrogant of their abilities to the point of being complacent or this was a trick. Yet, even if it was a trick the Sharina’s had given the Republic a golden opportunity and even the Republic was not one to look a gift horse in the mouth.

As the massive air group neared or entered Republican air space, hundreds of fighters along with those fighters already airborne pounced on their prey from all directions. From above, below, behind and ahead-missiles came from every direction. Those bombers that managed to get through the fighters would in turn be engaged by the Patriots and other missile air defense systems waiting for them. With the ability to detect and engage 100 targets up to and above 80,000 ft and capable of a speed of Mach 5, even the B-70s speed and high attitude capability would not be enough to protect it from attack. As for the B-2s, while some missiles were fired at possible B-2s locations, the amount brought down was unknown if any at all. Yet, the experience gained during this opening battle would greatly benefit those operating the radars and air defense systems. Meanwhile, the ground forces held their defensive positions all along the border of Columbia. While no attack was launched, key units such as the Armored Divisions began to move towards the border with Columbia. Meanwhile, all Republican Naval assets operating in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean Sea were contacted and ordered to sink any Sharinan or Vineyardian vessel spotted. In the meantime, those ships not damaged in the opening attacks set sail for the Windward Islands were they would form the Caribbean Fleet. At the same time, the Windward Islands defenses were put on high alert. Which, included the laying of defensive minefields at key points.

I have four major points of contention here for the general opening stage of the war.

#1: I did escort all these aircraft. Note that I launched F-22's from land bases, F-18's from my Nimitz carriers, and F-16's from land bases and carriers as well. They were to escort my bombers- I'm not *that* stupid to send in un-escorted bombers. I've indicated OOC'ly in this very thread on several occassions that such bombing raids *would* be escorted by fighters, particularly in South America.

#2: The bombing raids are done at night-time to greatly decrease the ability of enemy fighters to gain a visual on my aircraft, especially the B-2's as there are *no* European or South American built missiles or such in RL that could home onto B-2's (That I know of- RADAR guided missiles for example wouldn't work aganist B-2's because the B-2's would be practically invisible to RADAR missiles)

#3: My launched fighters would take on the RUN's fighters, allowing my ultra-high flying B-70's and stealthy B-2's to bomb SAM and missile sites that had survived the cruise missile attacks, then the B-52's would follow up with mop up operations aganist any weakened sites, military airfields, and / or major concentrations of ground forces. I struck at the civilian airfields to deny the use of them to the RUN once their military airfields are destroyed.

#4: Europe and South America in RL do not have anti-stealth RADAR that I know of as of March 18, 2007 RL time, and one issue I have with this is that if the RUN is allowed to develop anti-stealth RADAR using RL technology, then it could be argued that Sharina or other players could concievably develop and build NS-like stuff like superdreadnoughts, mach 5+ bombers and fighters, uber-tanks with carbon nanotube armor and 20,000+mm RHA defense, and even build railgun cannons, all because it is possible to do so with using current RL technology in certain ways.

This is a slippery slope I would very much like to avoid, lest this turn into one of these NS uber-tech-wankfests that always ruins RP's. If there is hard and concrete evidence that Europe + South America has RL anti-B-2 missiles and detection right now in RL, please do provide evidence of this and I most likely will withdraw my point of contention regarding anti-stealth RADAR in RL. I am asking this because Earth V is supposedly based off current RL tech, no NS-tech (uber-tanks or uber-planes) or extrapolated tech (like superdreadnoughts or railguns).

Alif Laam Miim

21-03-2007, 15:45

Alif Laam Miim

21-03-2007, 15:58

Sharina

21-03-2007, 23:46

I had heard that some companies have claimed to have developed anti-stealth RADAR, but it has never been confirmed because no one's willing to test that theory. That said, I would say one thing about the defense itself: unless the RUN was already fully prepared for the strike, these strikes ought to have a greater impact. Historically, first strike air raids have been very successful. The first time that Tokyo and Berlin were bombed, it caught everyone off guard. Of course, ideally, the RUN would not be as naive as the leadership in WWII or any other war preceding, but still - to claim to have been as prepared for a first strike - because as far I can relate chronologically, this air strike did occur before Vineyard started his air campaign over the Baleares - there is no way that all of the RUN forces would amply prepared to deal with the first strike. Comments like "already airborne" are unrealistic at this point.

Remember the whole debate about the Aurora planes and the satellites with video feed (the article from 2 RL years ago)? All these things are speculated, so the anti-RADAR thing should be treated in the same light.

United Earthlings

22-03-2007, 00:21

I have four major points of contention here for the general opening stage of the war.

#1: I did escort all these aircraft. Note that I launched F-22's from land bases, F-18's from my Nimitz carriers, and F-16's from land bases and carriers as well. They were to escort my bombers- I'm not *that* stupid to send in un-escorted bombers. I've indicated OOC'ly in this very thread on several occassions that such bombing raids *would* be escorted by fighters, particularly in South America.

1. OCC is not the same as IC. All you stated IC was that you launched your fighters, you never stated IC anything after that about them. Besides, it not being stated IC-which is a must and which I ask you to specify to do. You can't expect me to remember everything you state OCC. Furthermore, after all that mess with the Vineyard I decided to make no assumptions. I don't know where your fighters went, hence I can't reply to them and replied to what was stated IC. I read your IC post, the updated one you gave very carefully and replied to everything directly. So, you did state IC that you sent bombers without air escort. I even made an IC post about it because it even confused me why you would do that. BTW, I didn't say you were stupid. But, we are all human and do make mistakes-so I'm for one glad you forgot to put that in your IC declaration. It adds a nice sense of realism don't you think. You'll thank me, when I make a major mistake and you nail me for it.

One more thing, your bombers that are attacking targets in Europe would be without fighter coverage due to the ranges. Fighters general with a full weapons load have a range of only around 500-600 miles. Even with your Carriers you would still have to get pretty close to Spanish Shores to provide full fighter coverage. That's not counting the fact you haven't declared IC of sending any Carriers out into the Atlantic and towards Spain. Which, you must do. Everything must be stated IC or at least the major things, I didn't make the rules just following them as I learned them.

#2: The bombing raids are done at night-time to greatly decrease the ability of enemy fighters to gain a visual on my aircraft, especially the B-2's as there are *no* European or South American built missiles or such in RL that could home onto B-2's (That I know of- RADAR guided missiles for example wouldn't work aganist B-2's because the B-2's would be practically invisible to RADAR missiles)

2.That's actually incorrect on all counts. A B-2 is not invisible to radar. What stealth does is make the RCS (that's Radar Cross Section) on said aircraft smaller. However, no stealth is 100% perfect and even a B-2 still shows up on Radar, a be it a very small signature. It has been calculated that the B-2's RCS is about the size of a small bird. I would like to further add, that to reduce the likelihood of a B-2 being detected the crew fly through gaps in the radar networks that intelligence has given them. Why, your intelligence will probably know about some of mine it won't know about all of them and having 100 hundred B-2s all at once attacking in one place will produce a lot of small birds. A few more things, once the B-2s open their bomb bay doors-it's RCS gets much bigger and as it's stealth is a B-2s only weapon theirs nothing the crew can do if I timed a Missile launch just right. And for the record I'm using both Infrared (heat seeking) and Radar guided. As to night time, I agree they didn't have a visual hence the majority of the bombers engaged were B-52s and B-70s which would show up on radar and no visual would be needed. The only IC reference I made to engaging the B-2s was this one sentence. "As for the B-2s, while some missiles were fired at possible B-2s locations, the amount brought down was unknown if any at all.". That sentence says it all.

#3: My launched fighters would take on the RUN's fighters, allowing my ultra-high flying B-70's and stealthy B-2's to bomb SAM and missile sites that had survived the cruise missile attacks, then the B-52's would follow up with mop up operations aganist any weakened sites, military airfields, and / or major concentrations of ground forces. I struck at the civilian airfields to deny the use of them to the RUN once their military airfields are destroyed.

3.Now state what you just said IC and I'll reply to it. See point 1 for further clarification.

#4: Europe and South America in RL do not have anti-stealth RADAR that I know of as of March 18, 2007 RL time, and one issue I have with this is that if the RUN is allowed to develop anti-stealth RADAR using RL technology, then it could be argued that Sharina or other players could concievably develop and build NS-like stuff like superdreadnoughts, mach 5+ bombers and fighters, uber-tanks with carbon nanotube armor and 20,000+mm RHA defense, and even build railgun cannons, all because it is possible to do so with using current RL technology in certain ways.

This is a slippery slope I would very much like to avoid, lest this turn into one of these NS uber-tech-wankfests that always ruins RP's. If there is hard and concrete evidence that Europe + South America has RL anti-B-2 missiles and detection right now in RL, please do provide evidence of this and I most likely will withdraw my point of contention regarding anti-stealth RADAR in RL. I am asking this because Earth V is supposedly based off current RL tech, no NS-tech (uber-tanks or uber-planes) or extrapolated tech (like superdreadnoughts or railguns).

4.It's a slippery slope I too would very much like to avoid. Hence, why I did extensive research on Anti-Stealth Radar before claiming I had it. I'll be glad to share all the links (information) I found with you, but it will take some time to dig them all up as it was quite a bit. Over an hours worth of doing research will do that. Suffice to say, technology can be bought and sold and if even one country has the capability to build it and from my research many state they do. With the amount of funds I invested which is in the billions-I could either produce a knock-off or modify my existing radars. Though most nations haven't yet proven they have the capability or haven't had a chance yet to prove it or what is more then likely do have the capability but, have keep that information behind closed doors. Look how long the US military/government keep the Stealth Aircraft programs classified and there’s still a lot we don't know.

As to that slippery slope you should be watchful as even you have gone down it a little. Canada, Greenland, Mexico so on and all of you Latin America holdings do not operate the B-2s, B-52s, F-22s so on in real life. Yet another thing, the Montana class battleships were never built in Real life. Not, even their keels were laid and it could be augured that they are Superdreadnoughts and since they never left the drawing board they are not real life. Real Life can be taken to the extreme or not done at all. I'm trying to find a balance.

I hope this post answered all your questions. As to that information, I have it to you ASAP.

United Earthlings

22-03-2007, 00:41

I have one question - did you revise the actions of your forces in the attacks?

Yes and No. To do so for the first post, #10 would be cheating in a way and only create more headaches. I'm still having the first 168 missiles even though I added them coming in as two waves to still be counted as one.

I did some major rewriting of post #15. I reduced the number of missiles fired and further divided them into 3 waves as each group of aircraft got into a firing position. The ones way in the back are not going to be able to fire (I.E. have a clear shot). I reflected this in the IC post, hopefully.

I had heard that some companies have claimed to have developed anti-stealth RADAR, but it has never been confirmed because no one's willing to test that theory. That said, I would say one thing about the defense itself: unless the RUN was already fully prepared for the strike, these strikes ought to have a greater impact. Historically, first strike air raids have been very successful. The first time that Tokyo and Berlin were bombed, it caught everyone off guard. Of course, ideally, the RUN would not be as naive as the leadership in WWII or any other war preceding, but still - to claim to have been as prepared for a first strike - because as far I can relate chronologically, this air strike did occur before Vineyard started his air campaign over the Baleares - there is no way that all of the RUN forces would amply prepared to deal with the first strike. Comments like "already airborne" are unrealistic at this point.

I was fully prepared as much as possible. Actually, they did have a great impact. Where you got they didn't I don't know.

You forget England, the first time the Germans attack in force the English it was a draw that first day of battle. Radar gives a pretty good warning, besides other means. Say for example having someone sit outside one of Sharinas Air Force Bases watching and waiting to see if any aircraft are launched.

As to your comment about "Already Airborne" being unrealistic- you are incorrect. After Vineyardian declared war on me for the first time and relations with Sharina started to nose dive towards war- my military instituted a policy of having at least some Fighters airborne at all times and if possible an AWACS aircraft. Now, the number airborne will be low-maybe around a dozen or so across said country, but there's no law that states one can not conduct Air Patrols over ones own territory.

Sharina

22-03-2007, 01:35

1. OCC is not the same as IC. All you stated IC was that you launched your fighters, you never stated IC anything after that about them. Besides, it not being stated IC-which is a must and which I ask you to specify to do. You can't expect me to remember everything you state OCC. Furthermore, after all that mess with the Vineyard I decided to make no assumptions. I don't know where your fighters went, hence I can't reply to them and replied to what was stated IC. I read your IC post, the updated one you gave very carefully and replied to everything directly. So, you did state IC that you sent bombers without air escort. I even made an IC post about it because it even confused me why you would do that. BTW, I didn't say you were stupid. But, we are all human and do make mistakes-so I'm for one glad you forgot to put that in your IC declaration. It adds a nice sense of realism don't you think. You'll thank me, when I make a major mistake and you nail me for it.

If I make similiar mistakes in my IC posts, please do return the favor.

I'll edit more detailed descriptions of my fighters to expand onto what they are currently doing.

One more thing, your bombers that are attacking targets in Europe would be without fighter coverage due to the ranges. Fighters general with a full weapons load have a range of only around 500-600 miles. Even with your Carriers you would still have to get pretty close to Spanish Shores to provide full fighter coverage. That's not counting the fact you haven't declared IC of sending any Carriers out into the Atlantic and towards Spain. Which, you must do. Everything must be stated IC or at least the major things, I didn't make the rules just following them as I learned them.

I'm not sending fighters over to Europe. The only aircraft I'm sending over there are B-2's, and thats pretty much about it. So no problem with fighter contentions from you or myself in that theatre of operations.

2.That's actually incorrect on all counts. A B-2 is not invisible to radar. What stealth does is make the RCS (that's Radar Cross Section) on said aircraft smaller. However, no stealth is 100% perfect and even a B-2 still shows up on Radar, a be it a very small signature. It has been calculated that the B-2's RCS is about the size of a small bird. I would like to further add, that to reduce the likelihood of a B-2 being detected the crew fly through gaps in the radar networks that intelligence has given them. Why, your intelligence will probably know about some of mine it won't know about all of them and having 100 hundred B-2s all at once attacking in one place will produce a lot of small birds. A few more things, once the B-2s open their bomb bay doors-it's RCS gets much bigger and as it's stealth is a B-2s only weapon theirs nothing the crew can do if I timed a Missile launch just right. And for the record I'm using both Infrared (heat seeking) and Radar guided. As to night time, I agree they didn't have a visual hence the majority of the bombers engaged were B-52s and B-70s which would show up on radar and no visual would be needed. The only IC reference I made to engaging the B-2s was this one sentence. "As for the B-2s, while some missiles were fired at possible B-2s locations, the amount brought down was unknown if any at all.". That sentence says it all.

Perhaps I should have re-worded it better. I know B-2's aren't totally invisible. I remember reading a few articles a couple years ago that said a B-52 had the radar cross section of a 18-wheeler truck, whereas a B-2 would be something the size of a thumbtack or so.

So the B-2's would essentially be "invisible" to SAM sites looking for large RADAR signatures of conventional aircraft. They see maybe 3 or 4 birds flying in the air and dismiss them as native bird-life. Unless you want to waste hundreds or thousands of missiles shooting down every bird (B-2's and real flying birds) in the sky. Expanding on that a bit- sometimes there are indeed huge flocks of birds like 1,000 to 10,000 strong.

Plus my B-2's aren't concentrating on a single target- they're actually attacking like 20 or more different targets (various shipyards, naval bases, military bases, airfields, huge SAM sites, etc.). So your SAM sites might see a few birds flying around the area, and when my B-2's come in (3 - 5 planes at the most per "target") they would probably be indistinguishable from the native flying birds (like seagulls or cardinals or robins or whatever).

3.Now state what you just said IC and I'll reply to it. See point 1 for further clarification.

Will get on it later tonight.

4.It's a slippery slope I too would very much like to avoid. Hence, why I did extensive research on Anti-Stealth Radar before claiming I had it. I'll be glad to share all the links (information) I found with you, but it will take some time to dig them all up as it was quite a bit. Over an hours worth of doing research will do that. Suffice to say, technology can be bought and sold and if even one country has the capability to build it and from my research many state they do. With the amount of funds I invested which is in the billions-I could either produce a knock-off or modify my existing radars. Though most nations haven't yet proven they have the capability or haven't had a chance yet to prove it or what is more then likely do have the capability but, have keep that information behind closed doors. Look how long the US military/government keep the Stealth Aircraft programs classified and there’s still a lot we don't know.

As to that slippery slope you should be watchful as even you have gone down it a little. Canada, Greenland, Mexico so on and all of you Latin America holdings do not operate the B-2s, B-52s, F-22s so on in real life. Yet another thing, the Montana class battleships were never built in Real life. Not, even their keels were laid and it could be augured that they are Superdreadnoughts and since they never left the drawing board they are not real life. Real Life can be taken to the extreme or not done at all. I'm trying to find a balance.

I hope this post answered all your questions. As to that information, I have it to you ASAP.

Aye.

Although what I'm using is pre-modern tech. The Montanas wouldn't quite be a superdreadnought, as it'd supposedly be slightly larger than the Iowa, with an extra main gun turret. It's smaller than the Yamato, and Japan built two Yamato ships in RL.

The Montanas would have been 70,000 tons full loadout, whereas the Yamato class was 73,000 tons full loadout.

As for the lands under my control. Developing infrastructure and such is different than researching and using speculative 2000's or 2010's technology. For example, I started Earth V as California, Mexico, Utah, Arizona, and Oregon. So according to NS timescale, it means like 500+ years of development in Earth V as Earth V started up in fall 2004 in RL, almost 2 1/2 RL years ago. 500+ years is plenty of time to modernize Mexico and Third World nations I control to the standards of California (arguably one of the most modern parts of the RL US, particularly with Silicon Valley and such).

Building airports, sewer systems, installing internet + DSL + cable networks, refitting old dusty houses and apartments with modern day amenities, etc. is using current present day technology as opposed to developing new speculative technology (particularly military ones).

As to your comment about "Already Airborne" being unrealistic- you are incorrect. After Vineyardian declared war on me for the first time and relations with Sharina started to nose dive towards war- my military instituted a policy of having at least some Fighters airborne at all times and if possible an AWACS aircraft. Now, the number airborne will be low-maybe around a dozen or so across said country, but there's no law that states one can not conduct Air Patrols over ones own territory.

I do agree with UE on this point. A few aircraft up in the sky is a reasonable assumption. In fact, I did the exact same thing when the war threatened to go hot over Dweladelfina Prime a long time ago. I'm sure the RL version of the US would do the same thing if DEFCON went to critical levels.

United Earthlings

23-03-2007, 00:59

Although what I'm using is pre-modern tech. The Montanas wouldn't quite be a superdreadnought, as it'd supposedly be slightly larger than the Iowa, with an extra main gun turret. It's smaller than the Yamato, and Japan built two Yamato ships in RL.

The Montanas would have been 70,000 tons full loadout, whereas the Yamato class was 73,000 tons full loadout.

Actually, you are using Modern Tech. Modern Times extends from the 18th century (1700s) to today in the 21st century. Of course Modern times has been further broken down into more specific time periods, but those time periods are still consider Modern Times and hence any type of technology in use in Modern Times is considered Modern Tech. Napoleonic Era, Victorian era, World War Two, the Cold War so on are just some examples of the specific time periods used. The only period that has yet to get an official name as agreed by all has been the period following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Until, such that as that happens it's modern times.

See-Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_periods#Historical_periods) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Times).

As, to the Montanas not quite being a Superdreadnought. That is open to debate and I'll show you why.

While the term Dreadnought in the use as a Naval Term has kind of gone out of use, a Battleship and a Dreadnought are for all practical purposes the same thing. To quote a famous phrase, "A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet". As you know, but I'm stating this for the record a Battleship is any vessel that is both heavily armored and armed. While the definition of Dreadnought is a type of warship, both swift and heavily armored, esp of the early 20th century. Now, while the term superdreadnoughts is very popular on NS, that term could easily be replaced with superbattleships and it would mean the same thing.

While all battleship classes started after the completion of HMS Dreadnought become known as Dreadnoughts and with all battleships built before HMS Dreadnought being referred to as Pre-Dreadnoughts. See this Royal Navy site for a good history of the HMS Dreadnought-http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server.php?show=conWebDoc.878&changeNav=3533 However, they were still referred to as Battleships as you should note. By the 1930s, the term Dreadnoughts to describe All-Big Gun Capital Warships began to wan until by the 1940s it was all, but gone to be replaced with just being called Battleships.

Now, let's assume that the term Dreadnought never fell out of favor. By the 1920s and 1930s, you get Superdreadnoughts and by the 1940s it's safe to say that you could refer to the major All-Gun Capital Ships built in the late 1930s and 1940s as Super-Superdreadnoughts. By the time you get to the
late 1940s with the Japanese Super-Yamato Class, the American Montana class and the British Lion Class you are at the peak of Battleship design. While, yes the American Montana and British Lion Class would have not weighed as much as even the preceding Yamato Class-they would still have been consider more as Superbattleships to each nation that produced them. Where those three above classes would have fallen into is hard to say, in time though they would still have come to be known just as Battleships as theirs nothing superior about a Battleship. Which, is what super is short for. Like all weapons, a battleship has it's strength and weaknesses. And also, like all weapons a battleship can be made obsolete and that has already happened. Though by how much is open to debate as can be seen even today with the US Navy.

In closing, whether you call it a Dreadnought or a Battleship-as those three ship classes if they would have been built would have been the most advance ships at that time I think it's quite reasonable to call them SuperBattleships or if you prefer, SuperDreadnoughts. Though, since none of those vessels ever made it passed the drawing board were left with the Iowa Class, Yamato Class and others classes of battleships as the SuperBattleships.

If, you would like even more history on these ships I know of some great sites.

Sharina

23-03-2007, 05:34

Thanks for your viewpoint, UE.

I was arguing from the NS viewpoint, meaning to NS, "modern tech" would be something like 1980 - 2020, and 1900 - 1980 would be "pre-modern tech" in NS. At least that's the general consesus I've seen in quite a few RP's I've read through.

As for superdreadnoughts, point taken. I was comparing the Iowa, Montana, and Yamatos (60,000 - 75,000 tons displacement) to those ridiclious NS superdreadnoughts (200,000 to 2,000,000 tons displacement- yes, 2 MILLION tons!). NS superdreadnoughts have guns almost double the diameter of the WW-2 battleships at 30 - 40 inch NS guns as opposed to 15 - 18 inch WW-2 guns. Besides, the NS superdreadnoughts would make the Iowas, Montanas, and Yamatos seem like 18th or 19th century schooners in comparison.

Hence my comparisons.

Sharina

24-03-2007, 10:44

Made the necessary edits / update to my IC post to reflect the fighter issue and more specifics on the bombers, their missions, and the sequence of bomber entries (who goes first, second, and third).

Alif Laam Miim

26-03-2007, 00:50

Yes and No. To do so for the first post, #10 would be cheating in a way and only create more headaches. I'm still having the first 168 missiles even though I added them coming in as two waves to still be counted as one.

I presume that you mean to say that the cause has changed, but the effect remains the same?

I did some major rewriting of post #15. I reduced the number of missiles fired and further divided them into 3 waves as each group of aircraft got into a firing position. The ones way in the back are not going to be able to fire (I.E. have a clear shot). I reflected this in the IC post, hopefully.

I guess this adds to the realism... the sum of the result should be about the sum, although I'm guessing that the efficiency would be higher...

I was fully prepared as much as possible. Actually, they did have a great impact. Where you got they didn't I don't know.

You forget England, the first time the Germans attack in force the English it was a draw that first day of battle. Radar gives a pretty good warning, besides other means. Say for example having someone sit outside one of Sharinas Air Force Bases watching and waiting to see if any aircraft are launched.

Unfortunately, I do not believe that. The Germans had airplanes that were clearly visible on radar; as far as I know, your radar specialists would have to know what they were looking for, in terms of perceiving Sharina stealth aircraft before they had any impact. This - of course - presumes that the radar does detect stealth. Of course, it also presumes that the radar that could detect stealth couldn't detect them clearly. Even RL radar can detect stealth craft, if enough of a magnetic disturbance projects something detectable.

And having a spy tell you that Sharina aircraft were launched requires that you have already planted spies in Sharina - not unreasonable, but I think Sharina would protest to having the spies be able to tell you that his aircraft were launched from military installations.

As to your comment about "Already Airborne" being unrealistic- you are incorrect. After Vineyardian declared war on me for the first time and relations with Sharina started to nose dive towards war- my military instituted a policy of having at least some Fighters airborne at all times and if possible an AWACS aircraft. Now, the number airborne will be low-maybe around a dozen or so across said country, but there's no law that states one can not conduct Air Patrols over ones own territory.

Hmmmm... I will say this one last time - Sharina's attack occurs before Vineyard's attack. The only reason for the delay was because of OOC conflict and IC transition. Sharina's attack is the one that precipitates the formal initiation of hostilities. Ergo, you should forget the fact that we RPed Vineyard's attack more thoroughly before we started to resolve this ICly.

I expect some recourse from this, but - and this is a adamant "but" - I have already said this in numerous occasions:

Sorry to make everyone wait. It seems that EV has taken a sour turn for the worse. But while I am still within my ability to do so, I will address various issues that I now see that need resolution before I get back writing a paper on IR theory...

1 - I hear one guy saying yes, the other no; do you want me to moderate the war in its entirety? If so, I will make devout efforts to be more active given my schedule. But I'm not certain what I should be doing at this time. Once I have that clear as deciding results et cetera, I'll be much happier.

2 - referring to this statement:

Okay... This is what I have from this mess of time wanking that has happened perpetually since December [almost November!]:

POST1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12041394&postcount=64) Vineyard's carrier force attacks Grand Cayman Isle

POST2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12042833&postcount=66) Sharina announces destruction of GCI, and blames RUN - declares war; simultaneously launches air wave against RUN targets, the subject of which has been some part of this debate for quite some time and still remains to be resolved.

POST3 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12068028&postcount=74) Simon Bolivar supposedly makes an address before Sharina declares war, even though post is after the declaration of war by quite a length...

POST4 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12086495&postcount=77) The debated CNN footage of the carrier strike, which I believe was considered to be either a false portrayal of a real event or simply not considered as really I can't remember; I seriously thought that this was already resolved...

As for the other comment, that resides in the IC thread, which does not predate the declaration of war. In fact, it well exceeds the time past when it was declared. Besides that, in order for your government to have made a reaction and defense against Sharina's accusations, you will have needed to have heard the declaration of war in the same post - because both are listed in the same post. If your country decides to clear its name before it has any name to be cleared, people will get suspicious about why your country is doing, and it might in fact give some incentive to Sharina to blame a lot more on your government, because the historical precedent demonstrates that yours is an apologetic government. On account of temporal lapse and the consequent lapse of logical chronology in the posts themselves, your posts do not predate the declaration of war, which has been and remains the reason why we are here.

As far as the bomb raid attacks, I'm hoping to get those out ASAP, as long as I know what I supposed to be doing with it.

3 - If you find my absence disconcerting, please find someone else as willing as I would be. I don't mind being usurped, as long as you don't blame me [or the successor mod] for the lagging progress of this war. I've been trying to move it, as far as I've tried in the limited interactions that I've had [and as you will note, I haven't been very successful...]

4 - Vineyard, while I don't agree that 135 losses out of 168 missiles is a rational number, for the relative advantage that the attacker demonstrates, you wouldn't lose only 5 planes. My personal bias says somewhere between 25 and 30. My reasons: he's attacking you while you were targeting something else, and hence your pilots were not focused on the incoming barrage of missiles; however, he did commit to a single-shot salvo, which might seem to be a no-brainer kill-all solution, the planes have but to dodge the missiles at the precise moment, and they dodge it once - multiple wave missile strikes are more efficient and devastating because of the mechanics of the human mind, which can often manage only one target at a time, sometimes two, rarely three; the missiles are advanced, and do possess a technological advantage against pilots, especially those not trained for it; you also did mention launch chaff countermeasures, so this would also reduce the number of potential strikes that the missiles could acquire.

This is a number that I think is relatively representative of the losses. There are several other factors that could contribute to a larger or lesser number of casualties, but I'll leave it at this. For certain, 135 is excessive and unrealistic [unless Vineyard decided to pop in 4-year-old pilots...]. THAT SAID, Vineyard still has to engage RUN fighters on territory that is still advantageous to RUN fighters [having support from limited AA units] - if the RUN does employ his forces well, he could still manage to destroy a large quantity of the Vineyardian attack force [in which case, having 8,000 extra planes sounds like a great idea...]. Of course, the same could be said for Vineyard, but as I've stated, his attack clearly favors the defense in some large proportion, which I attribute more to the command leadership's failure to realize a reasonable support for for their aircraft over RUN territories, offering the RUN substantial home terrain advantages.

In any case, take this is as my decision if you decide to accept my moderation. If you don't agree with me, please state why, and offer conclusive evidence that I may consider in revising this statement. And again, I hope to be more active over this week, as I also hope you do so as well.

This is the chronology under which I have been operating since December. If this is not the chronology, someone please inform me where things went awry.

United Earthlings

27-03-2007, 04:51

I presume that you mean to say that the cause has changed, but the effect remains the same?

Correct

I guess this adds to the realism... the sum of the result should be about the sum, although I'm guessing that the efficiency would be higher...

Correct, instead of one wave which as shown by Vineyard is easier to disable-there are now many waves-thereby it's harder to destroy all waves and the amount of damage done increases by a factor of at least three.

Unfortunately, I do not believe that. The Germans had airplanes that were clearly visible on radar; as far as I know, your radar specialists would have to know what they were looking for, in terms of perceiving Sharina stealth aircraft before they had any impact. This - of course - presumes that the radar does detect stealth. Of course, it also presumes that the radar that could detect stealth couldn't detect them clearly. Even RL radar can detect stealth craft, if enough of a magnetic disturbance projects something detectable.

Not, all of Sharina’s aircraft have stealth built into them. A large part of his aircraft are in fact far from stealthy. That aside, I also operate some aircraft and also ships that have stealth characteristics-Eurofighter, Rafale, my version of the B1B (which for the past 3-5 Earth V years has been undergoing extension testing) and the De Zeven Provinciën class frigates to name, but a few. So, my specialists are quite well trained in knowing what to look for. I made sure of that with extensive use of training both in these systems and against systems they were likely to face in battle. I also had joint training between my various governments. Steps had to be taken to defend the Republic and they were. As I said, I was well prepared for this war in more ways then one. I saw it coming, long before anyway even thought a war might erupted.

And having a spy tell you that Sharina aircraft were launched requires that you have already planted spies in Sharina - not unreasonable, but I think Sharina would protest to having the spies be able to tell you that his aircraft were launched from military installations.

He catches them, he can kill them. As, for him protesting-he can do that all he wants. Were at war and I will pursue any goal towards either winning the war or bringing an end to the war with both goals, directed towards eventually bringing peace in the Western Hemisphere between me and Sharina. I'm there to stay, one way or another Sharina is going to have to accept that. Of, course I would like to add that I don’t have a person or persons watching every single one of his bases. That of course, would be unnecessary and begs the question OCC speaking what exactly is he going to protest about? Another question is, how did he found out they were spies or should a say people disappointed with their current situation and government and willing to lend a small hand in bringing an end to that government?

Hmmmm... I will say this one last time - Sharina's attack occurs before Vineyard's attack. The only reason for the delay was because of OOC conflict and IC transition. Sharina's attack is the one that precipitates the formal initiation of hostilities. Ergo, you should forget the fact that we RPed Vineyard's attack more thoroughly before we started to resolve this ICly.

I expect some recourse from this, but - and this is a adamant "but" - I have already said this in numerous occasions:

Yes, you have already said it on numerous occasions and I already agree with you before. Vineyard’s attack comes after Sharina’s. You misunderstood me when I said after Vineyard declared war on me. If, you will hopefully recall that when I sent forces [invaded, to put it in a not so nice way] Gabon and Equatorial Guinea. Kopparbergs, Vineyard and Persecution and Hatred declared war on me and only after I agreed to withdraw my forces did they cancel their war declaration. I learned a nice lesson that day and one was not to let your guard down. After a few months (Earth V time), I started Air Patrols over all Republican Territory. At the time Sharina and then Vineyard declared war on me with this being Vineyard's second time, the Air Patrols were still in effect.

So, hopefully that clears up your confusion and for the record you don't need to remind me on who declared war first and where. In fact, I got it the first time and if you had read my post more carefully, you would have noted the words First time after Vineyard declared war on me. Which, implies I started said action (deploying Air Patrols) sometime between Vineyard's first declaration of war against me [This is Vineyards second against me, check the West African Thread to see for yourself the first declaration of war] and when my relations with Sharina started to take a turn for the worse.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_technology

#2-http://www-tech.mit.edu/V121/N63/Stealth.63f.html

#3-http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/Anti-StealthTechnology.pdf

#4-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART-L

#5-http://www.thales-naval.nl/naval/activities/radar-sys/surveillance/products/smart-l.htm

#6-http://www.thales-naval.nl/naval/pdf/smart-l.pdf

Alif Laam Miim

31-03-2007, 05:55

I can consider the second scenario a possibility. It's a little icky for me personally, but if you can justify the extended acts of vigilance, I can justify a better preparation. This is going to be a lot harder to decide so I will deliberate on the most reasonable results - given the information provided.

Alif Laam Miim

04-04-2007, 18:41

Sharina - are you waiting for me to post losses for you?

Sharina

04-04-2007, 21:35

Sharina - are you waiting for me to post losses for you?

Losses for both sides during the engagement, with the updated and edited factors (more detailed aircraft deployment and missions and such).

Once this is done, I will RP the next stage of attacks and engagements, then have you or someone else neutral in this conflict (yet an active poster and sufficiently knowledgable about modern military equipment and stuff) calculate losses for both sides again.

Rinse n' repeat until one side cannot field any more units, one side can't continue the war in any reasonable capacity, a peace is reached between both sides, a ceasefire is reached by both parties, or any kind of resolution is reached IC'wise.

This is the only way to finish this war quickly so that other members of Earth V can resume RP'ing normally and not having to wait 3 more RL months.

Alif Laam Miim

10-04-2007, 21:13

Sharina

10-04-2007, 23:46

I will post losses for both sides for this attack, but I think as evidenced by this past week, you guys are going to be waiting a long time before I am able to post anything for your losses.

My apologies to keep you waiting for so long. At this point, I'd strongly advise finding a replacement because I will not have the time commitment as I once had to post your losses.

Understood.

There's a problem though- who else is available to post on a regular basis and moderate losses? Plus be totally unbiased towards Sharina or RUN, plus have a good understanding of military stuff (so to preserve realism instead of crazy stuff like "spearman kills a tank" type of thing)?

My B-2's were to drop EMP bombs upon all RUN military defense installations, SAM sites, etc. similiar to what NATO did to Serbia in RL. This is the "classified non-nuclear payload" I stated in my IC post. Therefore the SAM batteries, RADAR installations, etc. would have their electronics fried, meaning their effectiveness on detecting my waves of B-70's and B-52's would be greatly reduced. Plus, the EMP waves will fry guidance systems in SAM missiles, rendering them mostly useless.

I already explained this to you in my TG a month ago or so. I didn't want to be too obvious in the IC thread or OOC thread, since in RL, people keep their aces in their sleeves until the last minute they're needed to preserve the element of surprise.

I've also seen people use OOC information and knowledge to make 100% effective IC defenses. For example, if I OOC'ly detailed a surpise / sneak attack aganist a target, most NS players being in the role of defender would magically have extremely strong defenses ready for the surprise attack. It would be like the US magically teleporting 1/4 of its entire airforce to Pearl Harbor and launch all the planes in the air before the Japanese planes attacked- major cheating and metagaming.

That aside, I repeat my previous question- who will volunteer to replace ALM? If nobody volunteers, then we're in deep shit.

Military Command

11-04-2007, 20:28

Understood.

There's a problem though- who else is available to post on a regular basis and moderate losses? Plus be totally unbiased towards Sharina or RUN, plus have a good understanding of military stuff (so to preserve realism instead of crazy stuff like "spearman kills a tank" type of thing)?

My B-2's were to drop EMP bombs upon all RUN military defense installations, SAM sites, etc. similiar to what NATO did to Serbia in RL. This is the "classified non-nuclear payload" I stated in my IC post. Therefore the SAM batteries, RADAR installations, etc. would have their electronics fried, meaning their effectiveness on detecting my waves of B-70's and B-52's would be greatly reduced. Plus, the EMP waves will fry guidance systems in SAM missiles, rendering them mostly useless.

I already explained this to you in my TG a month ago or so. I didn't want to be too obvious in the IC thread or OOC thread, since in RL, people keep their aces in their sleeves until the last minute they're needed to preserve the element of surprise.

I've also seen people use OOC information and knowledge to make 100% effective IC defenses. For example, if I OOC'ly detailed a surpise / sneak attack aganist a target, most NS players being in the role of defender would magically have extremely strong defenses ready for the surprise attack. It would be like the US magically teleporting 1/4 of its entire airforce to Pearl Harbor and launch all the planes in the air before the Japanese planes attacked- major cheating and metagaming.

That aside, I repeat my previous question- who will volunteer to replace ALM? If nobody volunteers, then we're in deep shit.

I am sorry but your post about EMP bombs is currently unfounded so your use of such weapons shouldn't be allowed unless your can fine the proof in any military site or intelligence agency in the world. I have been in the military and have been able to look a some projects about new weapons but not one is to have said anything about EMP weapons right now. So, I think that you should reconsider the EMP weapons because there is no strong proof of said weapon unless your country did the research for the weapon.

I think that the lost that you took for having sent so much at RUN is a small number and you should be happy that it was not more that you did cause a big dent into RUN moral.

So, before you say the NATO or the US have used weapons then you should look it up. As for the B-70 too is not a current Bomber nor did it ever get in to deployment because the USAF pulled the funding and shelved the project all together. But if your going to be allow to use weapons from the past that were shelved witch is fine with me if that is the case because I know that France, Japan and my other nations have weapons that we could use that has be shelved for our great nation.

United Earthlings

11-04-2007, 21:48

Understood.

There's a problem though- who else is available to post on a regular basis and moderate losses? Plus be totally unbiased towards Sharina or RUN, plus have a good understanding of military stuff (so to preserve realism instead of crazy stuff like "spearman kills a tank" type of thing)?

No one from the looks of it, now I would be glad to lend my time to determine losses, but as your attacking me that creates an interest of conflict and thereby eliminates me from being able to do that. Now, I hate to say I told you so, but I did say we should calculate our own losses and only use a moderator when we got stuck over a major disagreement. Which, hopefully would of been few. However, you wanted to do it your way and I can only offer suggestions. You choose to not heed my advance as I knew this would happen and now we all get to sit and wait. As I said before, if your so in a hurry for this war to be over you might as well forget about it. Things take time and as most people in Earth V are not that active-it's going to take even longer to get things done. This is the sad truth at the moment.

My B-2's were to drop EMP bombs upon all RUN military defense installations, SAM sites, etc. similiar to what NATO did to Serbia in RL. This is the "classified non-nuclear payload" I stated in my IC post. Therefore the SAM batteries, RADAR installations, etc. would have their electronics fried, meaning their effectiveness on detecting my waves of B-70's and B-52's would be greatly reduced. Plus, the EMP waves will fry guidance systems in SAM missiles, rendering them mostly useless.

Since, I'm nice-I did the research for you. No, you are incorrect. There is no such weapon as an EMP bomb in the arsenal of any current country. So, your going to have to find another way to take out my SAM batteries, Radar installations, etc...

The weapon in question of what your thinking of is not an EMP bomb in any way. It's called the BLU-114B and it's only purpose is to disable/damage the electrical power infrastructure of a country. It's use against SAM sites, etc... is going to be of little to no value. The BLU-114B is the weapon that was used in Serbia (Kosovo). Here is a great link that tells all about it. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-114.htm

The only modern current weapon that can create a big enough EMP to do what you said above is a nuclear weapon. Now, your free to use a nuclear weapon against me of course, but I hope your prepared for the consequences of that action as the use of a nuclear weapon against me will not be taken lightly.

Sharina

11-04-2007, 22:05

I am sorry but your post about EMP bombs is currently unfounded so your use of such weapons shouldn't be allowed unless your can fine the proof in any military site or intelligence agency in the world. I have been in the military and have been able to look a some projects about new weapons but not one is to have said anything about EMP weapons right now. So, I think that you should reconsider the EMP weapons because there is no strong proof of said weapon unless your country did the research for the weapon.

Explains the EMP stuff in a bit more detail. It also indicates that the technology does exist to manufacture these weapons.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/kopp/apjemp.html

Some really scary parts of the EMP story did not make it into James Bond's latest adventure. Weapons designers specializing in high-energy physics can now create electromagnetic pulses without going into outer space. One approach involves harnessing the force of a conventional explosion. Others are simply just modifications of radar, which bounces pulses of energy off aircraft in flight, vehicles on the ground, and other objects.7 Crank up the power and you have an EMP weapon, ready to point at the computers of your favorite enemy.
This knowledge has set off a new arms race. Whether fitted into cruise missiles or parked at the side of the road in a van, non-nuclear EMP weapons have the potential to devastate the electronic systems of areas as large as a city or as small as a selected building, all without being seen, heard, or felt by a single soul.8 It is a dream come true for any and all terrorists, to include Saddam Hussein himself!
Sound far-fetched? It did not in 1993 to the owners of automobiles parked about 300 meters from a U.S. Defense Contractor's EMP generator test site at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. Their alternators and electronic engine controls were accidentally fried by a pulse during classified field trials.

This is quoted from this website.

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/army/tradoc/usaic/mipb/1997-1/merkle.htm

Here's a few other websites detailing the weapon I had in mind in more detail.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a19fc922494.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compression_generator

According to some reports, the U.S. Navy used experimental E-bombs during the 1991 Gulf War. These bombs utilized warheads that converted the energy of conventional explosives into a pulse of radio energy.

Quoted from this site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_bomb

I'm just saying that if the RUN can build a B1-B Lancer clone, then there should be no problems for me having these US-developed EMP weapons to KO all anti-air defenses, SAM installations, etc. rendering ground-to-air capabilities practically worthless.

----------------------------------------

So, before you say the NATO or the US have used weapons then you should look it up. As for the B-70 too is not a current Bomber nor did it ever get in to deployment because the USAF pulled the funding and shelved the project all together. But if your going to be allow to use weapons from the past that were shelved witch is fine with me if that is the case because I know that France, Japan and my other nations have weapons that we could use that has be shelved for our great nation.

I'm not disputing that nations can use past tech or weapons from decades ago. My main dispute is creating an exact duplicate (or 90% copy, or somewhere around that) in just a few years, particularly sensitive info and classified info that other nations do not possess. It would be like Iraq building their own B-2's or something to that effect. Thus, again, if such a thing were allowed to occur, I might as well be allowed to have my secret EMP weapons or the Aurora's (which I gave up for sake of fairness and realism).

Anyways, this is supposed to be alternate history, and I have treated Earth V as an alternate history. This means my nation, which is essentially 3/4 of the US's industry, population, etc. can pretty much build anything the US has ever built- politics be damned, plus there being a second Cold War that came after the historical US - USSR Cold War, which was the catalyst that brought back quite a few Cold War tech's and stuff like the B-70's and heavy battleships (to be immune to conventional anti-shipping missile attacks and such).

The part of the US I don't control is practically farmland, swamps, and weak economically (except Florida with all the old geezers and tourists). Its pretty much the CSA- and the CSA would be unable to out-produce the Union economically, industrially, and manpower-wise, no matter whether it was 1860, 1960, or 2060. Let's not forget I have the entirety of Canada and its resource rich areas (100+ billion barrels of "Oil Sands", lots of uranium, lots of diamonds (Ekati mines), and shitloads of other raw metals / minerals).

--------------------------------

Anyways, with these bits of rants aside, I accept the losses, and lets move on to the next phase of battle.

Now, assuming ALM can't continue to refree this war, who can refree it instead? Keep in mind, we need someone not allied to Sharina or RUN (or FOAM / EATO either) to preserve the non-bias. Plus we do need someone who is militarily knowledgable who can calculate realistic losses.

Alif Laam Miim

11-04-2007, 23:10

keep doing the IC part, and someone will eventually get to it - hopefully, either I can have more time [like RIGHT NOW] to do this stuff or someone else is generous to loan their free time to help out.

United Earthlings

11-04-2007, 23:14

If I'm missing anything, please let me know.

If you don't agree with what I've posted and wish to contest my decision to post these losses as displayed, please use the OOC thread.

Yeah, you missed a few things and I also have a few issues with your calculations.

1. How Sharina lost 74 Fighter Escorts, 11 B-70s and 25 B-52s in Europe is beyond me since he only ever sent 100 B-2s. Furthermore, how exactly did you figure out I lost 40 aircraft when B-2s don't carry any Air-to-Air missiles and furthermore, most of my aircraft are going to be in the air.

2. Your % of damage done civilian installations (also known as civilian infrastructure) is way out of wack in my opinion. For Sharina to cause 70%, 55% or even 40% in the first wave would require him to use Nuclear Weapons. If, he really caused that much damage there wouldn't be thousands dead-there would be millions of dead civilians. Civilian installations cover everything from roads, rails, homes, factories, power plants, telecommunications, etc... For Sharina to be able to damage/destroy 40% of that at once is impossible, unless of course he used nuclear weapons which he hasn't. Suffice to say, it took the Allies years of bombing the Third Reich and Japan to even began to come close to the % of damage to civilian infrastructure you have declared Sharina has inflicted upon me. Before, you cry well that was 60 years ago. How a bomb works and how much damage it causes hasn't changed that much in 60 years or 30 years or 10 years or even 4 years since the beginning of the Iraqi War.

For the record, how I would calculate % of damage done to Civilian Infrastructure is by assign each town a percent of the pie. All towns/cities equal 100%. Damage part of the town and it takes away part of that percent. The more towns/cities the less percent each is. Say for example there are 1,000 towns in Ven. Sharina damages about 12 towns/cities either on purpose or through collateral damage. Now, for the sake of simplicity while each town/city in real life would receive different types of damage and only certain parts of the city would be effected in most cases unless Sharina decided to just level the whole city to the ground. Even if a town is only a little damaged, it gets factored in.

So, Sharina damages 12 town/cities in various degrees. Out of the 1,000 towns/cities throughout Venezuela-1.2% of the Civilian infrastructure has been damaged/destroyed. According to my calculations this is closer to reality and far from the even 40% you have listed. This same application can be used for military installations. However, the exact or at least a reasonable number would need to be known to calculate with any certainty the percent loss. Since, that can't be known without doing much work. As, I suggest again below the use of percent’s not be used.

3. I would suggest you not use percent’s anymore and just give specially losses. As 5% of collateral damage can mean different things. 5% of the population of Ven was killed or injured? 5% of 20 million is 1 million. Again, unless Sharina used a Nuclear Weapon it's not going to be even 5%, not for a while anyway. It would take weeks/months/years at least for him to inflict massive damage and cause that many people to be killed.

4. The number of military killed/wounded for Venezuela/Caribbean I can accept, but I have no idea how you figured he's going to kill 10,000 military personnel in Argentina and another 10,000 military personnel in Europe. Air Power has never really caused that many losses. A few hundred to a few thousand maybe, but not in the tens of thousands. Adding to that he's not really bombing military facilities in Europe (specially Spain). He's more attacking civilian infrastructure. Also, you should break Europe up between the United Netherlands and the Iberian Kingdom.

Most casualties are caused in ground warfare and since neither of us has really engaged in ground warfare-the losses on both sides are going to be light i.e. under a few thousand. That is at least until we engage in ground warfare.

5. You never listed what Sharina’s casualties were. A bomber is manned you know as is all military equipment. Both sides are going to take losses, so it would be interesting to see both sides.

6. Last thing, for the record in the future if you don't mine. I would like to know how you calculated the losses. That way, I can specially point out with what I disagree with.

Alif Laam Miim

11-04-2007, 23:44

Yeah, you missed a few things and I also have a few issues with your calculations.

1. How Sharina lost 74 Fighter Escorts, 11 B-70s and 25 B-52s in Europe is beyond me since he only ever sent 100 B-2s. Furthermore, how exactly did you figure out I lost 40 aircraft when B-2s don't carry any Air-to-Air missiles and furthermore, most of my aircraft are going to be in the air.

He stated that his bombers carried escorts. Escorts are there to fight back. His statements

2. Your % of damage done civilian installations (also known as civilian infrastructure) is way out of wack in my opinion. For Sharina to cause 70%, 55% or even 40% in the first wave would require him to use Nuclear Weapons. If, he really caused that much damage there wouldn't be thousands dead-there would be millions of dead civilians. Civilian installations cover everything from roads, rails, homes, factories, power plants, telecommunications, etc... For Sharina to be able to damage/destroy 40% of that at once is impossible, unless of course he used nuclear weapons which he hasn't. Suffice to say, it took the Allies years of bombing the Third Reich and Japan to even began to come close to the % of damage to civilian infrastructure you have declared Sharina has inflicted upon me. Before, you cry well that was 60 years ago. How a bomb works and how much damage it causes hasn't changed that much in 60 years or 30 years or 10 years or even 4 years since the beginning of the Iraqi War.

For the record, how I would calculate % of damage done to Civilian Infrastructure is by assign each town a percent of the pie. All towns/cities equal 100%. Damage part of the town and it takes away part of that percent. The more towns/cities the less percent each is. Say for example there are 1,000 towns in Ven. Sharina damages about 12 towns/cities either on purpose or through collateral damage. Now, for the sake of simplicity while each town/city in real life would receive different types of damage and only certain parts of the city would be effected in most cases unless Sharina decided to just level the whole city to the ground. Even if a town is only a little damaged, it gets factored in.

So, Sharina damages 12 town/cities in various degrees. Out of the 1,000 towns/cities throughout Venezuela-1.2% of the Civilian infrastructure has been damaged/destroyed. According to my calculations this is closer to reality and far from the even 40% you have listed. This same application can be used for military installations. However, the exact or at least a reasonable number would need to be known to calculate with any certainty the percent loss. Since, that can't be known without doing much work. As, I suggest again below the use of percent’s not be used.

The percentages reflect his success rate - 70% of his targets received damage.

I'm assuming that he's not simply carpet bombing your entire country and his targets are specific. That 70% of the targets targeted of the nature indicated were destroyed. I should have been more specific about how to interpret that, but of course, I left it ambiguous because I never really received a pure list of targets - and I'm hoping that you two can duke out what was exactly targeted.

Furthermore, conventional weapons do a lot of damage on their own. Nuclear weapons just happen to reduce the amount of load required; besides 100 B-2 bombers, 100 B-52 bombers, and 100 B-70 bombers do carry a lot altogether.

3. I would suggest you not use percent’s anymore and just give specially losses. As 5% of collateral damage can mean different things. 5% of the population of Ven was killed or injured? 5% of 20 million is 1 million. Again, unless Sharina used a Nuclear Weapon it's not going to be even 5%, not for a while anyway. It would take weeks/months/years at least for him to inflict massive damage and cause that many people to be killed.

I will use percentages as a reflection of the damage inflicted. Of course, in retrospect, percentages for collateral don't make much sense, because those aren't targeted... I had thought to use percents as a reflection of the total damage inflicted, but that would be very hard to read in sum.

I will fix this ASAP - but not right now [I'm in between a break, and I felt it an injustice to leave this straggling behind].

4. The number of military killed/wounded for Venezuela/Caribbean I can accept, but I have no idea how you figured he's going to kill 10,000 military personnel in Argentina and another 10,000 military personnel in Europe. Air Power has never really caused that many losses. A few hundred to a few thousand maybe, but not in the tens of thousands. Adding to that he's not really bombing military facilities in Europe (specially Spain). He's more attacking civilian infrastructure. Also, you should break Europe up between the United Netherlands and the Iberian Kingdom.

Side effects from the bombing.

And I will make the distinction between Spain and Benelux, because those are distinct geographic regions.

5. You never listed what Sharina’s casualties were. A bomber is manned you know as is all military equipment. Both sides are going to take losses, so it would be interesting to see both sides.

I stated the number of bombers and fighters damaged/destroyed as part of the casualties.

6. Last thing, for the record in the future if you don't mine. I would like to know how you calculated the losses. That way, I can specially point out with what I disagree with.[/quote]

How? Well, I used dice...

But seriously, this is all a personal estimation. I used a little of reasoning to gauge a lot of things - the relative number of troops in the troop, the reaction time available for counter attack, the likelihood for a counterattack, the damage inflicted by each munition on the bomber, in addition to the combat readiness.

It's much easier to attack on the first run than it is the second run, because the defenders have little idea about how to stop an attack once it has started. Venezuela suffered the heaviest surprise penalty because of its proximity and its inability to effectively react. Argentina was second because of its proximity. Europe suffered the least penalties, but in sum, every region suffered more than usual because it was a first strike. It's up to the RUN make good on a second run.

I will explain more when I have the time to do so.

The Great Sixth Reich

15-04-2007, 18:31

UE:

Do you accept the losses now, or are you waiting for ALM's elaborated explanation?

United Earthlings

16-04-2007, 00:00

UE:

Do you accept the losses now, or are you waiting for ALM's elaborated explanation?

1. I accept the losses only for Venezuela/Caribbean as I still have problems/disagreements over what ALM stated for Argentina and Europe.

2. Yes, I'm waiting for ALM to continue to elaborate-so I can say specially on what I disagree with. His first post was very helpful, but it did not clear up all of my confusions/problems I have with his stated losses I suffered.

3. I'm planning on getting a reply up to what ALM talked in the previous post about, because he left quite a few of my nagging questions unanswered. In fact, some of what he stated made no sense and I will address those issues as soon as possible.

4. This is not related to anything ALM stated, but I feel the need to state this anyway. I'm not doing this on purpose to delay the war. In fact I share Sharina's need to get this war moving along so others can move on to other Roleplays they want to do without feeling bog down by our war. However, I can't well accept something I don't understand and by and large disagree with. Hopefully, my confusion will be cleared up shortly and we all can move on.

Sharina

16-04-2007, 02:44

I'm seriously getting annoyed and more frustrated.

If this war doesn't move on, then Earth V will be doomed.

If we retcon this war, that will mean yet another war being retconned in Earth V's history. Every major war has ended up retconned in Earth V, meaning no fun and exciting large scale conflict. This means there'll be no point to having major conflicts as we'll know they'll end up being retconned, thus dooming Earth V.

Its a lose-lose situation if this war doesn't get moving ASAP. If ALM can't do it (RL issues and constraints), then why aren't other people volunteering to refree this war?

---------------------

As for me, its a lose-lose-lose (triple lose situation) on a personal level. It is because I am only engaged in two RP's in NS, and Earth V is one of these RP's. Both RP's are in danger of dieing out, and if they do die out, then I will have NOTHING to RP in NS.

I can't be assed to RP with 95% of the NS players because of their substandard RP's (1 paragraph or 1 line RP posts), war RP's with no substance or backstory, no exploration and empire building RP's, no character RP's, etc. Those that do start up die out after only a week or two due to the 99% of NS players preferring to blow shit up for the hell of it, instead of a good ol' epic story-writing and RP'ing.

Thus, you see why if this war falls through and Earth V is doomed, its a triple-lose situation for me as a player.

Candistan

16-04-2007, 02:52

I can't really referee since I have no idea why this started in the first place and where it is right now. Plus, the only EV RP I'm doing right now can't progress because ALM isn't here.

Vineyard

16-04-2007, 19:48

Wow.

I take a break for a few weeks, and this war has hardly progressed.

Well. At least my 2 weeks wern't productive.

I learned that live-feed satilites DO exist. Anyone remember the Battle for Bhagdad? The War in Afganistan? Oh yeah. They're happening right now.

Anyhow, I was reading up on accounts by both the Republican guard and the US infantry during the battle. And in one instance, after the Republican Guard had their asses handed to them, they were drawing up an entire batallion (Approx. 1,000 men) into battle formation for a counterattack. The Iraqi general later recounted that a missle barrage from US artillary on their exact location was completly unexpected. The entire batallion was decimated.

An account by the US commander on the exact same event describes his sheer giddyness when satilites picked up a mass of Republican Guard forming up for a counter attack. He couldn't pass the oppertunity up. He bombarded the area immediatly, saving his troops from what would've been hand-to-hand combat as they were running low on ammunition, and decimating a large force of Republican Guard.

Another account is one-sided. This took place in Afganistan. The NATO force commander (The previous one, mind you) was given word that a satilite had picked up and was tracking a large force of Taliban in formation. However, after a brief period of time, the Taliban force was not moving. Instead, they were listening to a sermon given at what appeared to be a funeral for 5 fighters. Remember, this was being watched via satilite. The Commander decided against launching an attack, and gave the Taliban a moment to honor their fallen. He let them go (And of course caught a ton of flak for it from his superiors).

Enough of this hog-wash argumentative crap debating the existance of weapons used in today's world. EMP's exist actually.

Im not going to bother explaining it, as its particulars are a little beyond me. Alas, here is a paper written my an Austrailian Defence Analyst.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/kopp/apjemp.html

Have fun!

(1st 'event' I had read in a MH magizine. The 2nd 'event' was the courtesy of the News.)

United Earthlings

16-04-2007, 22:48

He stated that his bombers carried escorts. Escorts are there to fight back. His statements

1. "A strike force of just a hundred B-2's are sent out against Republican military holdings in Europe, particularly Spain as a deep penetrating raid upon any and all Republican airbases, supply depots, naval yards, military factories, and logistics centers in Europe."

Nevermind the fact, that bombers can't and never have carried fighter jets into battle. Please show me, where in that sentence as directly quoted from Sharina's post that it says his bombers are carrying fighters and he's sending more then just B-2s. Because, for the life of me I can't find it. :confused:

So I ask again, how can Sharina lose 74 Fighter Escorts, 11 B-70s and 25 B-52s in Europe when he never sent any of those aircraft in the first place as stated in his IC post?

The percentages reflect his success rate - 70% of his targets received damage.

I'm assuming that he's not simply carpet bombing your entire country and his targets are specific. That 70% of the targets targeted of the nature indicated were destroyed. I should have been more specific about how to interpret that, but of course, I left it ambiguous because I never really received a pure list of targets - and I'm hoping that you two can duke out what was exactly targeted.

Furthermore, conventional weapons do a lot of damage on their own. Nuclear weapons just happen to reduce the amount of load required; besides 100 B-2 bombers, 100 B-52 bombers, and 100 B-70 bombers do carry a lot altogether.

2. Understood, that makes more sense and for the record. Yes, you should have been more specific. As, now that you have stated what you specially meant. I accept the % losses.

I will use percentages as a reflection of the damage inflicted. Of course, in retrospect, percentages for collateral don't make much sense, because those aren't targeted... I had thought to use percents as a reflection of the total damage inflicted, but that would be very hard to read in sum.

I will fix this ASAP - but not right now [I'm in between a break, and I felt it an injustice to leave this straggling behind].

3. No, they don't do they. I await your fix for collateral damage. Hopefully, I shouldn't have a problem with it as I kind of see now on what you were trying to do with the collateral damage.

Side effects from the bombing.

And I will make the distinction between Spain and Benelux, because those are distinct geographic regions.

4. Still, since Sharina is mostly targeting my military centers-civilian losses are not going to amount to much higher then a few thousand throughout all areas of his attacks. Also, considering that he's attacking at night-most people would be at home asleep and not at their place of work. From the looks of it you didn't take that in to account.

So unless, Sharina does a change of tactics and starts carpet bombing or directly bombing my cities- there is no way in hell I took 35,000 civilian casualties in Venezuela/Caribbean, 25,000 civilian casualties in Argentina and 18,000 civilian casualties in Europe (Specially Spain).

Which brings me to my next point, since both Europe and Argentina would have time to prepare for the arrival of Sharinas bombers-10,000 military casualties is highly unlikely. Again, like the civilians a few thousand if Sharina is lucky. But, as I stated before-with advance warning now-those troops are going to have time to spread out and man there posts thereby dissipating the losses they will suffer from their bases being attacked. Also, to reduce the amount of damage done. I order a complete blackout over the nations of the Iberian Kingdom, the United Netherlands and Argentina. Hitting something with any precision in complete darkness and with the inability to see landmarks is adding further complications to Sharina’s attack. While, as you stated Sharina has surprise in the openning moves that is correct in Venezuela/Caribbean, but not in Argentina or Europe. His surprise has been lost in those theaters.

I stated the number of bombers and fighters damaged/destroyed as part of the casualties.

5. I specially meant his personnel casualties.

How? Well, I used dice...

But seriously, this is all a personal estimation. I used a little of reasoning to gauge a lot of things - the relative number of troops in the troop, the reaction time available for counter attack, the likelihood for a counterattack, the damage inflicted by each munition on the bomber, in addition to the combat readiness.

It's much easier to attack on the first run than it is the second run, because the defenders have little idea about how to stop an attack once it has started. Venezuela suffered the heaviest surprise penalty because of its proximity and its inability to effectively react. Argentina was second because of its proximity. Europe suffered the least penalties, but in sum, every region suffered more than usual because it was a first strike. It's up to the RUN make good on a second run.

I will explain more when I have the time to do so.

6. OK, I await your reply then.

The Great Sixth Reich

17-04-2007, 00:18

If I make similiar mistakes in my IC posts, please do return the favor.

I'll edit more detailed descriptions of my fighters to expand onto what they are currently doing.

I'm not sending fighters over to Europe. The only aircraft I'm sending over there are B-2's, and thats pretty much about it. So no problem with fighter contentions from you or myself in that theatre of operations.
[...]
Unless if something changed since then, Sharina appears to have sent no fighters to Europe.

Sharina

17-04-2007, 01:05

1. [I][COLOR="Navy"]Which brings me to my next point, since both Europe and Argentina would have time to prepare for the arrival of Sharinas bombers-10,000 military casualties is highly unlikely. Again, like the civilians a few thousand if Sharina is lucky. But, as I stated before-with advance warning now-those troops are going to have time to spread out and man there posts thereby dissipating the losses they will suffer from their bases being attacked. Also, to reduce the amount of damage done. I order a complete blackout over the nations of the Iberian Kingdom, the United Netherlands and Argentina. Hitting something with any precision in complete darkness and with the inability to see landmarks is adding further complications to Sharina’s attack. While, as you stated Sharina has surprise in the openning moves that is correct in Venezuela/Caribbean, but not in Argentina or Europe. His surprise has been lost in those theaters.

As I recall, the US bombed Iraq constantly during the night-time in RL with precision weapons, and scored many hits on Iraq military installations.

Precision weapons and map navigation use GPS targetting as well, so my bombers can fly to specific locations in pitch darkness on GPS navigation data (like in some RL SUV cars and stuff, but far more advanced and powerful), then drop bombs on the targets according to where the targets are located via GPS data from satellite data and feed (precision bombs are equipped with laser, GPS, and video devices as far as I know). Stationary targets like bases, bunkers, ammo depots, fortresses, installations, etc. have already been identified by GPS targeting during the daytime, so it should be no problem to precision strike them in darkness.

Vineyard

25-04-2007, 17:48

Alif Laam Miim

25-04-2007, 19:24

Earth V is dying, if not dead already, thanks to the pitiful conduct of this war.

We need rules! MORE rules on condusting warfare! Otherwise, we cant even think about conducting a war in Earth V!

TGSR and the mods need to shape up, come together, and form war rules that would make it quick and efficent. I origionally called for a system with a judge/warmod, who after listening to 2 arguments each on the sides of the conflict make a ruling, not have every little decision hotly contested, debated, and the entire process slowed down!

UE wins this round. He slowed down the proccess long enough to almoast Kill EV, and ruin my patience.

No, we cannot fix the rules then come back to this war. This war is too old, too outdated. People tried to progress while the war was still being carried on in the 'past'. It didnt work. it was like having one end of a rubber band pinned down at a set point while the rest of the rubberband progressed. Sure, it worked for a little time, but it either broke or snapped back, its momentium ceased.

If Sharina and GR are in concurance (UE undoubtedly is, as this was his master-strategy!), lets end this.

WAR REFORM IS NEEDED!

Well, I don't know what UE had wanted, but I don't think he's entirely at fault either. I was appointed mod, and mostly because I've been busy with other things, I've slowed the progress in this war by not posting as often as I should have, and perhaps making more decisions to propel this war in the right direction.

It's funny that I am able to post on right now, but that's because it's near the end of the semester and I just finished my freaking French essay [although I do anticipate to work on it again once we get back revisions for our second draft]. In any case, I have to give up the position as official war mod. You guys need to find someone else who can devote as much time to this as possible. Of course, it doesn't seem like many people are on any more, but hopefully, when finals are done for me, I'll have more time to devote to NS for the summer time.

But for the first fact, I would not want maliciously blame UE for "killing" EV. In my opinion, it's RL that is killing NS. I have finals, doubtless other people have finals. Doubtless, others have more pressing concerns than NS, like jobs, family, death, government inquiry [with taxes and stuff], et cetera. If UE really intended to cause, I sincerely that some huge truck drops on him because he does not need to waste time for people who already have enough to wait just to spend the few minutes online doing this - but again, I doubt that UE really wants to kill EV or that he intended to stall this war to point that it was unproductive to continue it.

In that regard, I do agree that we need to have more concrete rules regarding war in EV, and if I had more time, I would try to compile a list of rules to help out in this manner. But already, I've finished my French paper - I know that I will have an IR paper due out sometime, and I've also got to get ready for finals. In my opinion, EV needs some time to breath and let its participants log back on.

Alif Laam Miim

25-04-2007, 19:27

Unless if something changed since then, Sharina appears to have sent no fighters to Europe.

I read somewhere that Sharina had sent fighters, but now I can't find it.

That will certainly change the dynamics of how this plays out... but I will time to recalculate.

United Earthlings

28-04-2007, 15:53

As I recall, the US bombed Iraq constantly during the night-time in RL with precision weapons, and scored many hits on Iraq military installations.

Precision weapons and map navigation use GPS targetting as well, so my bombers can fly to specific locations in pitch darkness on GPS navigation data (like in some RL SUV cars and stuff, but far more advanced and powerful), then drop bombs on the targets according to where the targets are located via GPS data from satellite data and feed (precision bombs are equipped with laser, GPS, and video devices as far as I know). Stationary targets like bases, bunkers, ammo depots, fortresses, installations, etc. have already been identified by GPS targeting during the daytime, so it should be no problem to precision strike them in darkness.

True, if you recall my post quoted above. I never said it was impossible for you to hit the targets, but merely that it added complications. I.E. more difficult for you or in this case your bombers.

Also, I would like to point out- that comparisons between Iraqi during the Gulf War and Operation Iraqi Freedom and the various nations of the Republic while good at certain times do like all things have their limits.

For example, Iraqi in both cases didn't have a advance Air Force with modern fighter jets numbering in the hundreds or a sophisticated air defense network/command with thousands of modern air defense missiles on hand.

UE wins this round. He slowed down the proccess long enough to almoast Kill EV, and ruin my patience.

If Sharina and GR are in concurance (UE undoubtedly is, as this was his master-strategy!), lets end this.

All I have to say to that is this. Both those comments you stated above, were childish in nature and I've done nothing personally to you to warrant such behavior directed against me. With that said, I'm going to leave it at that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With that said, it should be clear to all why Earth V is dying. For something to be consider alive it must be active. Can anyone guess out of the 14+ members Earth V has; how many are actually active on a regular basis, i.e. posting at least 3-4 posts a week in Earth V related threads?

As to the war, I don't want it to end without the war having come to some type of conclusion. In fact, I was looking forward to it for various reasons.

In closing, I second ALMs opinion. In my opinion, EV needs some time to breath and let its participants log back on.

Alif Laam Miim

03-07-2007, 16:23

I've recalculated the losses [and rather hastily in my opinion, so if you want something done about it, post something in the next 6 hours!]

The Great Sixth Reich

03-07-2007, 20:42

If anyone has forgotten where the losses are posted, they are here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12530913&postcount=20).

Sharina

03-07-2007, 21:54

I'd like to add something.

I have just gone over UE's secret IC message in the main IC thread for Earth V. I see only one problem with that secret IC message- the timing.

You see, Sharina has already inflicted damage, losses, and destruction on Republican holdings (which is being re-calculated as of now), so that means we've gone past the point of no return for diplomacy. If this message had come before Sharina sent out its bombers, fighters, Navy, etc. and before it inflicted casaulties upon the RUN's forces, then it's quite probable that Sharina might have enterained the thought of doing talks with the RUN to defuse the situation.

Frigidaqua

05-07-2007, 00:29

If Sharina and GR are in concurance (UE undoubtedly is, as this was his master-strategy!), lets end this.

WAR REFORM IS NEEDED!
No, it would be too much of a mess to end it now. Now that there is this "war reform," let's continue this.

United Earthlings

05-07-2007, 14:47

I've recalculated the losses [and rather hastily in my opinion, so if you want something done about it, post something in the next 6 hours!]

Ok, I've gone over them and here is what I have to say.

1. Sharina losses; Europe:

4 B-2
19 B-70
45 B-52-Considering this sentence as posted by Sharina, "A strike force of just a hundred B-2's are sent out against Republican military holdings in Europe, particularly Spain as a deep penetrating raid upon any and all Republican airbases, supply depots, naval yards, military factories, and logistics centers in Europe." I don't see how he could lose any B-52s or B-70s over Europe when he is not sending any to attack me in Europe, but hey I've managed to magically kill around 60 aircraft so I've got no complaints. :D I just thought it odd. If you decide to fix that remember, in all likelihood he's going to lose more B-2s since I can bring almost my entire weight against those aircraft that are operating without air protection even if they are advanced Stealth Aircraft, I'm going to get lucky.

2. $5bil worth of damage inflicted total, $3bil worth of damage inflicted and $3bil worth of damage inflicted-The cost amount in damages I took is debatable and furthermore, I don't think anyone in the Republic or The Sharina Theocracy are sitting around calculating how much cost what. So, considering that we would have to assign a cost to everything Sharina destroyed and then determine almost every exact thing he destroyed to even begin to come close to figuring out a realistic cost analyst. You'll forgive me if I ignore this part as it neither adds to the roleplay or can be realistic determined.

Now, I know wars are expensive-however I'm sure I'm safe in saying that me and Sharina will worry about the cost of it after we either win or lose it.

However, to give you an appreciation on what things cost I found these references as examples as they will give you an idea in the cost in damages to civilian and military structures.

1. Hurricane Floyd in 1999 caused 57 fatalities and $4,666,817,360 USD(in 2000 constant dollars) or around $5.7 billion USD(in 2006 dollars) in damages. Hurricane Floyd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Floyd)

2. Hurricane Andrew in 1992 caused 65 fatalities and cost $34,954,825,000 USD(in 2000 constant dollars) or $38.1 billion USD(in 2006 dollars). Hurricane Andrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Andrew)

3. Hurricane Katrina in 2005 caused 1,836 fatalities and cost $81.2 billion (2005 USD) or $84 billion (2006 USD) in damages. Hurricane Katrina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina)

If, Sharina's military can even come close to the amount of damage those storms did in a day as Sharina's military attacks did in a day, I would love to see the proof of that.

With all that said, I accept the losses except the cost in damages as it not only doesn't represent a realistic figure (if figuring out one is even possible), but the time and energy required to calculate a reasonable cost is just not worth it. So, as I said above I will be ignoring that part so I can focus on more important things.

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If anyone has forgotten where the losses are posted, they are here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12530913&postcount=20).

Thanks, I had forgotten and couldn't find them. I owe you one. :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to add something.

I have just gone over UE's secret IC message in the main IC thread for Earth V. I see only one problem with that secret IC message- the timing.

You see, Sharina has already inflicted damage, losses, and destruction on Republican holdings (which is being re-calculated as of now), so that means we've gone past the point of no return for diplomacy. If this message had come before Sharina sent out its bombers, fighters, Navy, etc. and before it inflicted casaulties upon the RUN's forces, then it's quite probable that Sharina might have enterained the thought of doing talks with the RUN to defuse the situation.

Actually, that's not a problem. Allow me to explain, diplomacy works when both sides are willing to work their problems out politically and not through force. If you Sharina (I.E. your government has a desire to end this war through political means other then war then diplomacy is still open). Hell, even during the Cold War the Soviet's and Americans still talked to each other. See the Cuban Missile Crisis and the back channels. There are countless other examples.

Yes, you have inflicted damage on me and which is why I stated let us end this war before anymore blood is shed on either side. So, I'm giving diplomacy one final chance to avert a major war which is why I left the message a little vague on certain issues. My goal was just to get the conversation going again, the next step is up to you. You can choose to responded or you can basically go tell me to go F**K myself (diplomatically of course), at which point the war would continue until one side gives up or we can come to some type of agreement. Of course, the longer the war goes on the less likely diplomacy will have a chance.

Now, you wanted some type of post or RP to bring about the end of the war until we could get a working war calculator which I have no idea how long it's going to take. It could be quite a few more months until it is finished and up and running. And this war has only gotten through the first few days if that. I'm just wondering how much longer we can just let this war dangle before we finally cut the string and move on.

Once, we get a war calculator we can always have another war. I don't see that as being a problem.

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No, it would be too much of a mess to end it now. Now that there is this "war reform," let's continue this.

If, we end it through peaceful means then their wouldn't be a mess. A UN enforced Cease-fire or me/Sharina/Vineyard and to a limited extent you coming to some type of agreement on ending the war. BTW, in case you haven't noticed the war reform has only just gotten started and it will be quite away before it's finished.

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